Has Zildjian Lost Their Minds?
hsos...@pacbell.net
Hardly. I played on a 22" K Constantinople a few weeks ago, and it
probably weighs-in at around 5 lb. With gold trading at around $295/oz,
a 5 lb cymbal made of gold would be worth over $23,000 not including
labor costs.
Mark Polis wrote:
>
> Better yet - Sam Ash sent me a copy of their new catalog today, and
> the 20" and 22" K. Constantinoples are listing at over $600, and
> selling for around $360 a piece through the discount and mail order
> houses. Are they made of gold?
hsos...@pacbell.net
Your evaluation is completely flawed. If Zildjian were scrapping all of
their other cymbal lines and only producing the Re-Mix line, your
argument would have some validity. But in point of fact, Zildjian is
only adding-to their already extensive line of cymbals. The existance of
the Re-Mix series in no way takes away from their A Custom, A, Azuka, K,
K Custom, and Z Custom lines. In fact, it gives open-minded (and
open-eared) drummers even MORE choices so they can put together a cymbal
setup that fulfils their unique musical needs. Instead of 6 lines of
'cast' cymbals to choose from we now have 7. And you think this is bad
for drummers?
Additionally, the logic behind your dismay is flawed. Instead of costing
drummers jobs, these cymbals in fact, allow living, breathing drummers a
*better* chance of getting paying gigs, since if they perform as
advertised they allow said human drummer to get the sound that many
artists want live and on stage without using samples. Now a live drummer
can be hired instead.
If you try the Re-Mix series and don't care for them, don't buy them.
But to assert that their mere existence somehow demeans loyal Zildjian
customers (which I have been for the past 31 years) and takes them
"backwards" by limiting their choices is completely wrong.
Mike wrote:
>
> The following was copied from the Zildjian Web page.
> My question: DOES THIS MAKE ANYONE ELSE HAVE TO PUKE?!
>
> Zildjian's new Re-Mix cymbals are designed to acoustically recreate the
> heavily processed, sampled cymbal sounds that characterize today's
> electronic rhythms. Perfect for live and studio use, Re-Mix consists of
> a range of sounds offering the most popular of today's electronic HiHat,
> Crash and Ride sounds. A concentrated, attenuated sound with minimal
> overtones and little to no sustain defines the entire range. Though
> unique in their development and sound characteristics, Re-Mix cymbals
> offer interesting colors to compliment all types of today's new music.
> *
> All the characteristics of today's popular heavily processed/sampled
> cymbal sounds but still retaining a natural acoustic quality.
>
> TRANSLATION
> New from Zildjian: Cymbals that sound like crap. In an effort to tick-off every drummer on the face of the planet, we have attempted to make our cymbals sound like the very machine that put thousands of drummers out of work in the eighties.
> We've quit trying to advance our technology. Instead, we're taking a step backwards-- a huge step. And in the process, we will guarantee that you will toss your lunch after hearing these fine examples of monkey-turd.
> Thank you, loyal and dedicated Zildjian customers!
Mike
The following was copied from the Zildjian Web page.
My question: DOES THIS MAKE ANYONE ELSE HAVE TO PUKE?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zildjian's new Re-Mix cymbals are designed to acoustically recreate the
heavily processed, sampled cymbal sounds that characterize today's
electronic rhythms. Perfect for live and studio use, Re-Mix consists of
a range of sounds offering the most popular of today's electronic HiHat,
Crash and Ride sounds. A concentrated, attenuated sound with minimal
overtones and little to no sustain defines the entire range. Though
unique in their development and sound characteristics, Re-Mix cymbals
offer interesting colors to compliment all types of today's new music.
*
All the characteristics of today's popular heavily processed/sampled
cymbal sounds but still retaining a natural acoustic quality.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
TRANSLATION
New from Zildjian: Cymbals that sound like crap. In an effort to tick-off every drummer on the face of the planet, we have attempted to make our cymbals sound like the very machine that put thousands of drummers out of work in the eighties.
We've quit trying to advance our technology. Instead, we're taking a step backwards-- a huge step. And in the process, we will guarantee that you will toss your lunch after hearing these fine examples of monkey-turd.
Thank you, loyal and dedicated Zildjian customers!
Blooaacch!
-MIKE-
Mark Polis
"Mike" <Michael....@ohiou.edu> wrote:
¤The following was copied from the Zildjian Web page.
¤My question: DOES THIS MAKE ANYONE ELSE HAVE TO PUKE?!
>SNIP<
¤-MIKE-
Better yet - Sam Ash sent me a copy of their new catalog today, and
the 20" and 22" K. Constantinoples are listing at over $600, and
selling for around $360 a piece through the discount and mail order
houses. Are they made of gold?
--
o-----«Ť Mark Polis Ť mjp...@csrlink.net Ť»-----o
Chris Milillo
Mike wrote: The following was copied from the Zildjian Web page.
My question: DOES THIS MAKE ANYONE ELSE HAVE TO PUKE?!----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Zildjian's new Re-Mix cymbals are designed to acoustically recreate the
concentrated, attenuated sound with minimal overtones and little to no sustain defines the entire range. Though unique in their development and sound characteristics, Re-Mix cymbals offer interesting colors to compliment all types of today's new
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> TRANSLATION
> New from Zildjian: Cymbals that sound like crap. In an effort to tick-off every drummer on the face of the planet, we have attempted to make our cymbals sound like the very machine that put thousands of drummers out of work in the eighties.
> We've quit trying to advance our technology. Instead, we're taking a step backwards-- a huge step. And in the process, we will guarantee that you will toss your lunch after hearing these fine examples of monkey-turd.
> Thank you, loyal and dedicated Zildjian customers!
>
> Blooaacch!
>
> -MIKE-
Zildjian is simply targeting a market that obviously exists. I'm sure Zildjian researched this before spending who knows what to develop this line. Actually, when I think about it, I'd rather see someone playing a cymbal than an electronic pad.
I'd like to hear these cymbals before I make a judgement. Aren't you the least bit curious? I am...
Chris
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harry
Mike wrote:
> TRANSLATION
> New from Zildjian: Cymbals that sound like crap.
mike,
join us here in the 90's. electronic sounds are a part of who we are
musically whether you like it or not.
have you tried the remix cymbals yet ?
i find the 12" and 14" remix crashes to sound really good. very dark and
pleasant. they sound a hell of alot better than most of the avedis
line.
to quote timer:
don't knock it till you try it, remix can be fun.
harry
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_____________________________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________
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* mrp...@erols.com *
* *
* web page: http://www.mrpoole.com
* *
* THE NEW ALBUM "THE LATE ENGAGEMENT" IS OUT NOW !! *
* ON SPINart RECORDS. GET IT AT YOUR FAVORITE RECORD STORE !! *
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Mike
>I'd like to hear these cymbals before I make a judgement. Aren't you the least bit curious? I am...
>
Ya' Chris. Curious. Like how I look in the toilet after...... never mind. :-)\
-MIKE-
Mike
Re: hsos...@pacbell.net
OK, appearantly my sarcasm and parody got lost somewhere.
The only semi-serious point I was trying to make is that this is a step backward, in a way. Let's face it, electronic cymbal sounds were horrible. And by most opinions, still are. Why? Because of the limits of past and present technology, that's all. I don't think the drum machine manufacturers set out to make horrible cymbal sounds. But they did. And for Zildjian to try to replicate that sound, just seems to me to be a bit strange and demeaning. But, I guess market is everything.
And I am curious. I will try some out next time I'm up at the drum shop. Who knows, I may find one I like. Actually, one of my favorite cymbals is an 18" Zildjian AMIR. Remember those. I use it as a high ride.
-MIKE-
>Your evaluation is completely flawed. If Zildjian were scrapping all of
>their other cymbal lines and only producing the Re-Mix line, your
>argument would have some validity.
>[snip]
>Additionally, the logic behind your dismay is flawed.
>[snip]
Mike
>join us here in the 90's. electronic sounds are a part of who we are
>musically whether you like it or not.
Again, you're missing my point. Their premise is to make cymbals that sound like something that has been blatently inadaquate since its inception: the drum machine.
> have you tried the remix cymbals yet ?
>
>i find the 12" and 14" remix crashes to sound really good. very dark and
>pleasant. they sound a hell of alot better than most of the avedis line.
I sure they sound good. Most of Zildjian's cast cymbals do. My parody was a dis to their marketing.
Now I'm going to have to try one and I'll probably post something next week that says, "man, those remixes sound great." And everybody's gonna flame my pants off. :-)
-MIKE-
Dcymbals
I tried the Re-mix cymbals a couple of weeks ago and they sound rather dull and
uninteresting to my ears. I dont think I would have a use for these kinds of
cymbals anyway because all the digital processing, electronic effects, sound
engineers and studio pyrotechnics seem to have this effect on a lot of cymbal
sounds after mixing and mastering. It is rare that I hear a recording (except
for most jazz CD's) where I hear a truly natural cymbal
sound..................hell most of the drums have effects on them and cymbals
are usually processed along with it using compressors etc.
So in todays music, we hardly ever hear the sound of a raw crash or ride
cymbal. Its all processed anyway and sounds like PSSSSSSSSSS. Thats why its
almost rediculous to search for all these specialized cymbals, dark, exotic,
bright, dry what have you because in most contemporary music
settings.....................you're just going to hear the clipped high end and
every cymabl is going to sound almost identical: PSSSS PSSSSS PSSSSSSSS and
maybe an occasional KWISSSSSS.
So my point is, why do we need cymbals that sound naturally processed when they
will be processed anyway? Its kinda like adding EQ to every
mixdown............OVERKILL!
If we all keep playing our A zildjians or whatever, we will still get our fair
share of synthetic cymbal sounds from the loud musty PA systems and studio
control rooms not to mention the expensive
colorizing microphones and Cheap boards.
Now as far as the new K constantinople cymbals, they are way too expensive for
most working jazz drummers just to casually buy one on impulse. Fron what I
have heard I dont think they sound quite worth it, they have lost their minds
on this one for sure. Who would shell out 350-400$ for a ride cymbal?
Istanbuls can be quite pricey sometimes but at least they are the real thing
If there is anyone here on this message board who owns a one of these, tells us
what you really think of it and let us know if you secured a low interest rate
on the loan to get it.
Dcymbals (another frustrated cymbal connoisseur)
Jesse C. Chang
"Mike" <Michael....@ohiou.edu> writes:
>Again, you're missing my point. Their premise is to make cymbals that sound like something that has been blatently inadaquate since its inception: the drum machine.
They are inadequate to us, because we're comparing them to the sounds
we like. To the techno/house/electronica/whatever people, our sounds
might be considered inadequate, and the drum machine sounds might be
exactly what they want. Like I believe Hyam said, this might allow
for more real drummers to play that sort of music.
>I sure they sound good. Most of Zildjian's cast cymbals do. My parody was a dis to their marketing.
I disagree with the second sentence above, but that's another thread.
:)
They're looking for a new market. Or, they're looking for people who
are after alternative cymbal sounds. To whoever thought they should
be lumped in with the Special Effects line, and not have their own...
...the Azuka and Oriental cymbals are subcategories of the Special
Effects line. No reason the Re-Mix cymbals can't be. We'll have to
see a new Zildjian catalogue to find out.
>Now I'm going to have to try one and I'll probably post something next week that says, "man, those remixes sound great." And everybody's gonna flame my pants off. :-)
Heh, nah, we'll just say "told ya so". :)
Jesse
--
!! Jesse C. Chang dru...@netcom.com
[___]
`|' "We always want to believe there is a place
/|\ better than our own." -- Loreena McKennitt
FeckMan
Yeah,
*snip*
> Its all processed anyway and sounds like PSSSSSSSSSS
That's very true. My band just did a recording, and I'm not too happy with
the final result for just this reason (among others...). Here I spend tons
of money to have cymbals with different tonal characters, and everything
sounds vanilla on tape. It really PSSSSSSSSES me off! :)
--Jim.
Dcymbals wrote in message
<199803191712...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
Bob Morgan
I kinda wondered many of the same questions you posted (initially) but the more I thought about it here is what I came up with. One of the uses may be low volume situations ( ie-churches ). I have never heard the cymbals but if the sustain is low maybe that would work ok. Something else- I play new country in my current band and every now and then when learning new tunes I hear crash cymbals that have been gated - so who knows ( I am groping for straws here ) I guess my thoughts are that if
it's another tool to make a sound it may be cool? ( again I havent heard this "tool" yet, I could care less what they're crappy marketing hype is trying to sell, jus let me hear em and my ears will decide if " I " can use em. I do agree however that the ad caught me by surprise and I had to think "what the hell? "
On a side note what did ya think of the new Sabian Radia cymbals - they look VERY Cool ( again havent heard em ) but I think it's kinda humorous / stupid for Terry Bozzio to again have a "Terry" line with now Sabian - Uh Terry I thought the Visions cymbals by Paiste were IT ! This just plain sounds and looks very flakey to me...
DIRads
I don't know about everybody else, but a 17" ride is very appealing to me,
since i have a tough eneough time fitting in my 20", let alone my 21". Anybody
actually played these, or are we just regergitating the propaganda?
-------
Thanks for listening...
Dan
dir...@aol.com
hsos...@pacbell.net
Your sarcasm certainly wasn't lost on me, however my post addressed the
essence of your argument, not how it was presented.
Here you repeat your feeling that the mere existence of the Re-Mix
series is a step backwards and is demeaning for drummers. If you feel
held back and demeaned by the fact that these cymbals are available,
that's too bad. If the reason for this is that electronic cymbal sounds
are so "horrible", do you also feel demeaned and set back by the
existence of all electronic percussion instruments? If not, why do only
the Re-Mix cymbals make you feel this way?
I think that Paiste's 'Rude' series of cymbals sounded truly "horrible",
but I've never felt that they set drummers back or demeaned them. I
simpy play instruments with the sounds that are personally expressive
for me. The existence of crap doesn't make it any harder for me to do
this. (And the world will always have its share of crap. Getting
bummed-out about this dooms you to a life of sorrow.)
Druu
>Zildjian is simply targeting a market that obviously exists. I'm sure Zildjian
> researched this before spending who knows what to develop this line. Actually,
> when I think about it, I'd rather see someone playing a cymbal than an
> electronic pad.
>I'd like to hear these cymbals before I make a judgement. Aren't you the least
> bit curious? I am...
I recently tried some remix cymbals and guess what: these things don't even
remotely sound like processed cymbals. They just sound like slightly off
acoustic cymbals.
-Druu
Stan Chase
Dcymbals <dcym...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199803191712...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
> Now as far as the new K constantinople cymbals, they are way too
expensive for
> most working jazz drummers just to casually buy one on impulse. Fron what
I
> have heard I dont think they sound quite worth it, they have lost their
minds
> on this one for sure. Who would shell out 350-400$ for a ride cymbal?
> Istanbuls can be quite pricey sometimes but at least they are the real
thing
Unless my sources are wrong, the 20" K Constantinople lists for $550, and
with the customary 50% discount, $275 isn't all that much to pay for a
cymbal many jazz drummers have lusted for but been unable to find used.
Even if you were lucky enough to find an old K, the chances of it being a
good one were pretty slim.
If Zildjian can consistently (and they have been getting better at this;
ex. K Custom Darks) make cymbals that truly recreate the original K sound
and feel, then I believe they are trying to give drummers a sound that they
have not only heard and liked, but been unable to buy at any price. I doubt
Elvin Jones would part with his treasured K's, no matter what you offered
him. I'm not suggesting that $275 will make you sound like Elvin, or anyone
else, but I for one am glad to be able to buy a product that is as close to
the "real thing" that modern technology will allow.
I have seen and heard Peter Erskine play one of these and you could tell
that he was obviously "digging" its sound (so was I). If a cymbal can put a
smile on my face and make my playing more enjoyable, then I wouldn't
consider it a casual, impulse buy. Most jazz drummers don't play with a
large number of cymbals and drums and are more "quality vs. quantity"
oriented. They can get a wider range of sounds from fewer sources than most
drummers. With smaller setups becoming popular in other forms of music as
well, each drum and cymbal choice becomes more critical than ever.
To me it's refreshing to see a 375 year old company come out with products
like the Constantinople and Re-Mix series. It shows to me that they are
willing to cater to the needs of drummers wanting vintage as well as more
modern sounds. Lack of innovation and consistency have been two of the most
common complaints about Zildjian in this newsgroup. I have been playing
their products for 30 years and will continue to and applaud Zildjian's
efforts at remaining "the only serious choice".
Thanks Armand, Craigie, Debbie, everyone at Zildjian and Happy
Anniversary!,
Stan
stan...@hotmail.com
Dcymbals
>From: "Stan Chase" <stan...@hotmail.com>
>Unless my sources are wrong, the 20" K Constantinople lists for $550, and
>with the customary 50% discount, $275 isn't all that much to pay for a
>cymbal many jazz drummers have lusted for but been unable to find used.
Usually typical prices reflect 40% off list price but still that is a lot of
money to pay for a cymbal made by a machine.
>If Zildjian can consistently (and they have been getting better at this;
>ex. K Custom Darks) make cymbals that truly recreate the original K sound
>and feel, then I believe they are trying to give drummers a sound that they
>have not only heard and liked, but been unable to buy at any price. I doubt
>Elvin Jones would part with his treasured K's, no matter what you offered
>him. I'm not suggesting that $275 will make you sound like Elvin, or anyone
>else, but I for one am glad to be able to buy a product that is as close to
>the "real thing" that modern technology will allow.
I dont think Zildjian's consistency has got any better, to me it has become
worse. Zildjian would need to set aside the "technology" and find some
artisians who could hand make the cymbals to the original Turkish spects to
produce cymbals that sounded anything like old K's. If you want the "real"
thing, check out any of the real turkish cymbal companies like Istanbul and
Bosphorus who hand make cymbals the same way the old K's were made years ago. I
even feel that the quality is better than old K Zildjians, especially with the
Istanbuls.
>
>I have seen and heard Peter Erskine play one of these and you could tell
>that he was obviously "digging" its sound (so was I). If a cymbal can put a
>smile on my face and make my playing more enjoyable, then I wouldn't
>consider it a casual, impulse buy.
Now this is where the fringe benefits of an endorsement come into play, Peter
Erskine is a cymbal nut as much as I am but with one exception; he gets to hand
select his cymbals from the zildjian vault. With this in mind he is always
going to be playing great sounding cymbals, cymbals neither you nor me will
ever get to play because such good ones in the batch never get to leave the
factory. The next time you see him play some of his great cymbals, if you
happen to notice, on the undersides of the bell there will be the words
stamped..........."Special Select" and I'm sure his 20" constantinople medium
ride is no exception. Good luck finding one that sounds as good as his.
>To me it's refreshing to see a 375 year old company come out with products
>like the Constantinople and Re-Mix series. It shows to me that they are
>willing to cater to the needs of drummers wanting vintage as well as more
>modern sounds. Lack of innovation and consistency have been two of the most
>common complaints about Zildjian in this newsgroup. I have been playing
>their products for 30 years and will continue to and applaud Zildjian's
>efforts at remaining "the only serious choice".
>
>Thanks Armand, Craigie, Debbie, everyone at Zildjian and Happy
>Anniversary!
What it really is, is that all of the Zildjian endorsees who have a need for
jazz type cymbals are all begging Armand to seriously come up with something
that really sounds like an old K and with Paiste introducing the Traditional
series, Istanbul becoming more accessable and the debut of new turkish cymbal
manufacturers, Zildjian is a little worried they need to finally satisfy that
end of the market.
Well all I have to quote is "Aint nothin' like da real thing"
Dcymbals
Stan Chase
> Usually typical prices reflect 40% off list price but still that is a lot
of
> money to pay for a cymbal made by a machine.
I don't know where you buy your cymbals, but I've never paid more than 50%
of list for mine (and not from mail order but an authorized local dealer) .
As far as the handmade vs. machine value, I would rather my money be spent
on a sophisticated hammering machine than on contributing to a craftsman's
disability from years of repetitive stress or carpal tunnel syndrome.
Hand-lathing on the Constantinople series is much easier on the cymbalsmith
than hand-hammering. I do believe "ears on" quality control at all stages
of manufacture is crucial and this is one area Zildjian stresses on in this
cymbal series. So your statement about them being machine made is partially
false.
> I dont think Zildjian's consistency has got any better, to me it has
become
> worse. Zildjian would need to set aside the "technology" and find some
> artisians who could hand make the cymbals to the original Turkish spects
to
> produce cymbals that sounded anything like old K's. If you want the
"real"
> thing, check out any of the real turkish cymbal companies like Istanbul
and
> Bosphorus who hand make cymbals the same way the old K's were made years
ago. I
> even feel that the quality is better than old K Zildjians, especially
with the
> Istanbuls.
You're entitled to your own opinion of course, but the best of the old K's
(and I've played a few) ARE the "real thing" and Istanbul and Bosphorus
makes are desperate attempts at capturing a "niche" market and perpetuate
the "anything made overseas is better than the US" myth.
> Now this is where the fringe benefits of an endorsement come into play,
Peter
> Erskine is a cymbal nut as much as I am but with one exception; he gets
to hand
> select his cymbals from the zildjian vault. With this in mind he is
always
> going to be playing great sounding cymbals, cymbals neither you nor me
will
> ever get to play because such good ones in the batch never get to leave
the
> factory. The next time you see him play some of his great cymbals, if
you
> happen to notice, on the undersides of the bell there will be the words
> stamped..........."Special Select" and I'm sure his 20" constantinople
medium
> ride is no exception. Good luck finding one that sounds as good as his.
I have had numerous email and face-to-face discussions with Peter regarding
his "preferential status", and it may be true that he is sent hand-picked
cymbals from the factory (I doubt he goes to the vault each time a new
cymbal line becomes available) he states emphatically that he gets to play
and hear on a regular basis, cymbals equivalent in sound to his, in stock
at dealers. There are no "Special Selection" stamps on any of his cymbals
and Zildjian stopped that practice back in the '80s. I used to walk into
many drum shops when I was touring in the '70s and '80s and found "SS"
stamps on quite a few cymbals. Peter is regarded as one of the best cymbal
players in the world and I have little doubt that he would have any reason
to lie to me. He has even offered me the opportunity to bring in as many
Constantinoples that I can get on loan (yes, it helps to have a good,
trusting, professional relationship with an authorized dealer) to compare
to his when he comes to the PASIC convention here in November. So for me at
least, luck shouldn't be a factor.
> What it really is, is that all of the Zildjian endorsees who have a need
for
> jazz type cymbals are all begging Armand to seriously come up with
something
> that really sounds like an old K and with Paiste introducing the
Traditional
> series, Istanbul becoming more accessable and the debut of new turkish
cymbal
> manufacturers, Zildjian is a little worried they need to finally satisfy
that
> end of the market.
Competition in the cymbal market certainly drives manufacturers to improve
and stay "in-tune" with users needs. I wouldn't care if they paid me or
gave them to me for free, if they don't meet my sonic requirements in an
instrument(s), then I refuse to play them. I sincerely doubt that many
Zildjian endorsees were ready to "jump ship" just to play a cymbal made in
Europe or Turkey. With a 375 year old reputation and 80% market share, I'm
sure Armand loses little sleep worried about the imitation "real things".
The fact that he cares enough to satisfy as many different types of
drummer's needs as possible is a commendable attitude that I wish more
company executives had.
If I come off sounding like a closed-minded individual just because I
happen to choose what I consider the right tools for my trade, then the
problem isn't mine, it's yours.
Respectful of right of choice for us all,
Stan
stan...@hotmail.com
Dcymbals
>From: "Stan Chase" <stan...@hotmail.com>
>I don't know where you buy your cymbals, but I've never paid more than 50%
>of list for mine (and not from mail order but an authorized local dealer) .
I'm in a position where I usually get 60% (or more) off list price on cymbals.
But I also know that most music stores give the typical walk in customer a 40%
off list price to start with and if you are a good bargainer, can get down to
45 and 50% off.
>As far as the handmade vs. machine value, I would rather my money be spent
>on a sophisticated hammering machine than on contributing to a craftsman's
>disability from years of repetitive stress or carpal tunnel syndrome
I would rather spend $200 on a 20" ride cymbal made in Turkey by a real Turkish
cymbal craftsmen(a couple of the older guys who are still working for Istanbul
also came from the old Zildjian K factory.............one in particular made a
couple of my cymbals which are gems back in 1994 and 95) who has years of
cymbal making experience than give Zildjian $350 for a machine pressed ride
cymbal that lacks that certain tonal personality the old K's had.
Do you own a pre-aged dry light ride? they were the biggest dissapointment to
me, they were supposed to sound like old K's but the only one that did was
Peter Erskine's 22" ride. Maybe you should ask him if he wants to sell it now
that hes happy playing the new K.
>Hand-lathing on the Constantinople series is much easier on the cymbalsmith
>than hand-hammering. I do believe "ears on" quality control at all stages
>of manufacture is crucial and this is one area Zildjian stresses on in this
>cymbal series. So your statement about them being machine made is partially
>false.
Dont be so gullable, of course Zildjian is going to tell you they have the
most outstanding hands on quality control (every company will) but we all know
they send a lot of dogs to the music stores and expect us to make the "only
serious choice".
My statement about them being machine made is definitely true. They have
cad/cam programs that auto hammer each cymbal line according to different
specs. Once in a while they might pull out a hammer or two to correct severe
variations but mostly human hands are only holding the cymbal while the
computer is simulating hand hammer patterns.
>You're entitled to your own opinion of course, but the best of the old K's
>(and I've played a few) ARE the "real thing" and Istanbul and Bosphorus
>makes are desperate attempts at capturing a "niche" market and perpetuate
>the "anything made overseas is better than the US" myth.
Your statement here has some merit, yes if you are lucky enough to find an old
K that is a gem...........you got the real thing. But you are missing the
point, Istanbul and Bosphorus are the real things made in Turkey, made by
experienced turkish cymbal craftsmen, made by some of the old guys still alive
who made the old K's over 22 years ago, using the traditional turkish cymbal
hand crafting techniques...............so how much more close to the old K's
can you get from here? You say they are desperate attemps but they will always
be a hell of a lot closer than Zildjian and its machines will ever be.
>With a 375 year old reputation and 80% market share, I'm
>sure Armand loses little sleep worried about the imitation "real things".
>The fact that he cares enough to satisfy as many different types of
>drummer's needs as possible is a commendable attitude that I wish more
>company executives had.
You just proved a good point, Armand aint worried too much because he knows his
cymbals will still sell to some degree due to the Zildjian name no matter how
bad the quality control gets.
I do think he is more uptight these days with all the other great cymbals
coming out from Ufip, Istanbul, Paiste and even Sabian.
>If I come off sounding like a closed-minded individual just because I
>happen to choose what I consider the right tools for my trade, then the
>problem isn't mine, it's yours.
>
>Respectful of right of choice for us all,
>Stan
>stan...@hotmail.com
I am in no way taking any offense or trying to be offensive, I like a good
debate. Its your choice, you continue to buy into Zildjian's hype and play
mediocre cymbals and I will spend my money wisely and play the "real things"
made by real people.
I do wish you the best luck in finding a nice Constantinople Ride (I'm not
being sarcastic) Let us all know how your search goes. It must be a really
neat thing to be able talk cymbals with Peter and have him help you find what
you're looking for!
Cheers,
Stan Chase
Sorry my esteemed colleague, but this is a direct quote from the Zildjian
web site:
"Carefully HAND LATHED by skilled artisans using old-style cutting tools.
Pit marks and impurities on the surface of the cymbal, that occur naturally
during the manufacturing process, have not been removed as doing so would
sacrifice total quality."
So I still stand by my statement that these cymbals are NOT entirely
machine-made and you should check your facts first.
Tally-ho,
Stan
stan...@hotmail.com
Dcymbals <dcym...@aol.com> wrote in article
<199803201707...@ladder03.news.aol.com>...
Quor...@sprintmail.com
Stan Chase wrote:
>
> Sorry my esteemed colleague, but this is a direct quote from the Zildjian
> web site:
>
> "Carefully HAND LATHED by skilled artisans using old-style cutting tools.
> Pit marks and impurities on the surface of the cymbal, that occur naturally
> during the manufacturing process, have not been removed as doing so would
> sacrifice total quality."
>
> So I still stand by my statement that these cymbals are NOT entirely
> machine-made and you should check your facts first.
>
> Tally-ho,
> Stan
> stan...@hotmail.com
All that the "machines" will do, is cause them to have a higher standard of quality
control.
For some reason, there has been this myth concerning Paist,that they have these "huge
cymbal machines" that just chunk out cymbal after cymbal-there are still people
controlling the machines.
Tim
Dcymbals
>Minds?
>From: "Stan Chase" <stan...@hotmail.com>
>Date: Fri, Mar 20, 1998 18:31 EST
>Message-id: <01bc59e8$b8c479e0$55cc68ce@default>
>
>Sorry my esteemed colleague, but this is a direct quote from the Zildjian
>web site:
>
>"Carefully HAND LATHED by skilled artisans using old-style cutting tools.
>Pit marks and impurities on the surface of the cymbal, that occur naturally
>during the manufacturing process, have not been removed as doing so would
>sacrifice total quality."
>
>So I still stand by my statement that these cymbals are NOT entirely
>machine-made and you should check your facts first.
>
>Tally-ho,
>Stan
>stan...@hotmail.com
Sounds like you believe all the marketing hype thats thrown at you.
Colin Odden
Dcymbals wrote:
> >From: "Stan Chase" <stan...@hotmail.com>
> >Sorry my esteemed colleague, but this is a direct quote from the Zildjian
> >web site:
> >"Carefully HAND LATHED by skilled artisans using old-style cutting tools.
> >Pit marks and impurities on the surface of the cymbal, that occur naturally
> >during the manufacturing process, have not been removed as doing so would
> >sacrifice total quality."
> >So I still stand by my statement that these cymbals are NOT entirely
> >machine-made and you should check your facts first.
>
> Sounds like you believe all the marketing hype thats thrown at you.
More importantly, I think Zildjian DOES hand lathe its Ks. However, in an 1993
interview (either the Dave Abb. or Adam Nussbaum issue) a Zildjian confessed
that Ks aren't hand hammered, the argument being that the hammerers' arms would
be ruined after just a day's work, given the demand they're facing. Whether or
not this is true, I was told that Zildjian stopped hand hammering their cymbals
around 1990 or so, maybe earlier. I also think it makes a real difference. I
own an old pair of Sabian HH Fusion hats, with the signed bell. These were
completely hand hammered, apparently. I played them side by side with a couple
other pairs of newer HH Fusions (granted, one pair was a 13"), and none of the
new ones even came close. I realize that other factors were at work in the
distinction (prejudice is not excluded), but I think it was a big difference.
It's sad that demand is so high that good production processes get lost in the
fray.
--
Colin Odden
odd...@osu.edu
http://members.tripod.com/~Dynasonic
This Space For Rent
Stan Chase
> Sounds like you believe all the marketing hype thats thrown at you.
If Zildjian is all marketing hype and no substance, how do you explain the
fact that the majority of the finest drummers and percussionists on the
planet play their products? How can that many people be wrong and your
"tiny" minority right?
What I believe in is what my ears tell me and my emotional reaction when I
play what I consider to be a superior cymbal.
I have auditioned many of your revered Instanbul and Bosphorus "gems" and
have never found a single one to be anything other than a "Turkish turkey".
I'm sure that means nothing to you but if these are the best examples of
hand-crafted cymbals made, I'm not suprised that few drummers choose to use
them. Superior to a "real K", NOT!
So all this debate shows is that we all hear things differently and prefer
one sound over another. I would never try to convert you from your obvious
dislike for Zildjian cymbals and manufacturing techniques and would
appreciate the same respect in return.
What's the point in continuing a debate over such a subjective and personal
thing as "taste" in cymbals? It will be an empty argument anyway soon as
the few remaining "old school" craftsmen die off and hand-making cymbals
becomes a lost art. In the meantime, instruments made by the Zildjian
family and their descendants will continue, as they have for the last 375
years, making the best old, new, and innovative cymbal sounds for the vast
majority of discerning musicians everywhere.
Let's call a truce and would you please stop making insulting, blanket
statements about me like your last reply.
To each his (or her) own,
Stan
stan...@hotmail.com
Dcymbals
>From: "Stan Chase" <stan...@hotmail.com>
>If Zildjian is all marketing hype and no substance, how do you explain the
>fact that the majority of the finest drummers and percussionists on the
>planet play their products? How can that many people be wrong and your
>"tiny" minority right?
Well my friend, endorsements are big business for most companies including
Zildjian but it is often an unscrupulous one too.
>What I believe in is what my ears tell me and my emotional reaction when I
>play what I consider to be a superior cymbal.
>
>I have auditioned many of your revered Instanbul and Bosphorus "gems" and
>have never found a single one to be anything other than a "Turkish turkey".
> I'm sure that means nothing to you but if these are the best examples of
>hand-crafted cymbals made, I'm not suprised that few drummers choose to use
>them. Superior to a "real K", NOT!
Its quite unfortunate that for some reason you have not found a good cymbal in
Istanbul or Bosphorus. On the other hand, I feel the same about Zildjian, all
I hear from them are mostly dogs and they dare to put "genuine turkish cymbals"
etched on them. Ha! what a farce!
No they dont have as many(hardly any) endorsing artists like Zildjian does but
great Jazz cymbal players such as Mel Lewis and Elvin Jones sure as hell knew
the real thing! (I'm not one to buy other players cymbals but have you ever
checked out any of the Mel Lewis series cymbals?)
As someone else here in this newsgroup just said, most of the old K's were not
that good...................but I have played on countless Istanbuls that were
anything but turkeys. I actually have never played one that I didnt like, now
as for the old K's...........I own some that I dont care for the sound but I
keep them for historical purposes.
>
>So all this debate shows is that we all hear things differently and prefer
>one sound over another. I would never try to convert you from your obvious
>dislike for Zildjian cymbals and manufacturing techniques and would
>appreciate the same respect in return.
>
>What's the point in continuing a debate over such a subjective and personal
>thing as "taste" in cymbals?
Why not? isnt that what this newsgroup is for? debating and sharing
information? I'm having fun in this debate but it is getting old.
> It will be an empty argument anyway soon as
>the few remaining "old school" craftsmen die off and hand-making cymbals
>becomes a lost art.
Scarry though! Better stock up nowadays.
> In the meantime, instruments made by the Zildjian
>family and their descendants will continue, as they have for the last 375
>years, making the best old, new, and innovative cymbal sounds for the vast
>majority of discerning musicians everywhere.
Uh...........yes they will continue to live off their name and supply the world
with half-ass mediocre cymbals and overcharge like DW drums. Maybe Zildjian
and DW should merge into this huge money sucking empire.
No thanks, if I want an A zildjian type sound, I'll just spend a little more
cash and buy a UFIP class series cymbal and actually enjoy the sound.
>Let's call a truce and would you please stop making insulting, blanket
>statements about me like your last reply.
>
>To each his (or her) own,
>Stan
>stan...@hotmail.com
Absolutely! cheers! my apologies if I have offended you, I checked the
message and didnt see where I did.
But anyway this will be my last response to this thread.
Gene Miller
Not that this thread is "opininated" or anything but the reality for
some of us that have been playing since dirt was invented know for a
fact you had to go through a truckload of K's to find a decent one. This
is also true of A's too. Buying cymbals has always been the most
difficult of chores for a drummer.
For example, I just recently bought a new K heavy ride that I've had at
least 10 offers to buy. It's stage presence is second to no other cymbal
I've ever owned in 40 years. Lucky? I think not! I went through 100's of
cymbals to find this sound. I have NO old K's in my collection that are
as good. Another story is I've been looking for a 22" sizzle cymbal and
was not able to find one. Well, I have a '60's 22" A that has a huge
amount of wash and was just horrible for a ride. No definition. Playing
on it with 7A sticks would cause a full inch of travel vibration at the
edge of the cymbal. Drilled it for 10 aluminum rivets and now it's one
of my best sounding cymbals.
I've played lots of cymbals and have found no one brand that does it
all. The unfortunate truth is hand hammered or machine hammered most
cymbals are dogs or just run of the mill and are usually sold to those
without "cymbal ears." I hear lots of talk about the quality of A's here
but my ears tell me at the dealers I go to that their sound hasn't
changed much from when I started playing especially when A-Bing them to
old cymbals in my collection. IMHO this a truly a credit to Armand and
his staff that he has changed the process and continues to at least have
the same ratio of good cymbals. Just because I buy a hand hammered
Turkish cymbal doesn't guarantee it sounds any better than a machine
hammered one. The sound I get from that particular cymbal tells me if
it's any good or not, Not who it's made by.
Gene M.
Jesse C. Chang
Gene Miller <gene_m...@ccm.co.intel.com> writes:
>I hear lots of talk about the quality of A's here
>but my ears tell me at the dealers I go to that their sound hasn't
>changed much from when I started playing especially when A-Bing them to
>old cymbals in my collection.
It depends on the type of cymbal. The rides haven't changed much, and
the hi-hats maybe a bit, but splashes and crashes have changed for the
worse, with As and Ks. The lack of hand hammering may contribute a bit
to the decline of the Ks, but what I've noticed is that they're all
thicker, especially at the edge, moreso than my old A and K splashes
and crashes. Sure enough, when I A/B them, my cymbals beat them out
every time. I don't mind a bit of thickness in rides and hi-hats, but
I like thin crashes and splashes. Thick ones are more one-dimensional
to my ears.
Stan Chase
Gene Miller <gene_m...@ccm.co.intel.com> wrote in article
<35144C...@ccm.co.intel.com>...
> For example, I just recently bought a new K heavy ride that I've had at
> least 10 offers to buy. It's stage presence is second to no other cymbal
> I've ever owned in 40 years.
So you found one also. My 22" K heavy ride is just as you described but I
didn't have to go through 100's to find it. Mine is hardly new (had it
since the '80s) and just keeps getting better the more it's played. It's my
benchmark against any and all challengers. Nothing has even been in the
same ballpark, sound and feel wise. So the cymbal gods have been good to
me.
I also have an 18" K crash-ride, 16" K crash, and 14" K hats that I
purchased the same year and these too have more than a "hint" of the sound
of my ride. It must have been a good year for Zildjian. I do admit to
having to search a little harder for these but it was no great chore. I
have heard a few new K Custom Darks that rival these but not surpass them.
Maybe you have read about my ear-lust for Peter Erskine's 20" K
Constantinople medium ride? You just have to see and hear him play it. I
will be getting one of these in November (with Peter's help) and I can
retire my 18" and 16". For many years I've been wanting to use just 2
cymbals and hi-hat and this year it's coming true. Life is good!
I have a set of '60s A's that I used for big band and rock which were
hand-picked from the factory by my cousin who lived in Quincy, Mass. (home
of Zildjian at the time) and had good ears from playing with drummers in
Woody Herman's band. These don't get played much anymore, but I'm proud to
have them to pass on to my son for use with his ska band. The only cymbal
he isn't getting is my same vintage 22" Swish Knocker. A unique and
versatile ride-sizzle for sure and I would only use it in a recording
studio.
Considering the trouble you and other have had in finding great K's, I
truly feel like a lucky man to have had the privledge to play some of
Zildjian's finest cymbals.
Just felt like sharing this with you,
Stan
stan...@hotmail.com
Mark Polis
dcym...@aol.com (Dcymbals) wrote:
>SNIP<
¤No thanks, if I want an A zildjian type sound, I'll just spend a
¤little more
¤cash and buy a UFIP class series cymbal and actually enjoy the sound.
WHAT????? Since when do UFIPs sound like A's? Are you saying that
because they're higher pitched and more penetrating than the darker
K's, Istanbuls, Bosphorus's, etc.? Because to my ear, that's where
the similarity ends.
My UFIP's don't have that sort of bell-sounding brassiness that tends
to ring through in the higher registers with A. Zildjians (of which
I've owned dozens of good representatives in my lifetime). UFIPS have
far more clarity and lushness.
--
o-----«Ť Mark Polis Ť mjp...@csrlink.net Ť»-----o
Dcymbals
Well I said I would post to this thread anymore but now its on a different
line. You know I have heard a couple K heavy rides that sounded nice to me but
I rarely see them in stock in major music stores at home or abroad. I'm not
entirely a Zildjian hater, I own a 20" Brilliant Regular K ride thats got a
good but unorthodox sound; has some bright ping with a very good bell but is
very washy at the same time, oh well got it for 40 bucks anyway.
>So you found one also. My 22" K heavy ride is just as you described but I
>didn't have to go through 100's to find it. Mine is hardly new (had it
>since the '80s) and just keeps getting better the more it's played.
>I also have an 18" K crash-ride, 16" K crash, and 14" K hats that I
>purchased the same year and these too have more than a "hint" of the sound
>of my ride. It must have been a good year for Zildjian. I do admit to
>having to search a little harder for these but it was no great chore. I
>have heard a few new K Custom Darks that rival these but not surpass them.
Stan, what year did you get your K's? My 20" K ride is from the early 90's (has
the Zildjian logo on the bottom) but my 18" K crash-ride(from 1987) has the K
on top and bottom. I guess these were called the first american K series. These
are actually my favorite Zildjians since the old K days. My 18" K crash ride
has a real flat profile and a big bell. Really dark sounding but has some cut
at the same time. This is my best Zildjian cymbal I have left. I just wish I
could have bought some more crashes and rides and a pair of hi-hats from those
days since they were made decently. But I remember searching through a few
before I got that one.
Dcymbals
I should have made that statement more clearly; I was just saying that if I
wanted a cymbal sound more in the range of an A zildjian I would rather go with
a UFIP class series cymbal. They are great sounding all purpose cymbals and
sound just like you described:
bright yet sweet and warm.
>Subject: Re: Has Zildjian Lost Their Minds?
>From: mjp...@csrlink.net (Mark Polis)
>Date: Sun, Mar 22, 1998 08:01 EST
>Message-id: <6f31vj$1po$1...@pigpen.csrlink.net>
Mike
>this. (And the world will always have its share of crap. Getting
>bummed-out about this dooms you to a life of sorrow.)
Oh yeah, I'm just laughing through my tears.
Get over it. :-)
Stan Chase
The 5% Nation of Matt <ma...@cp.verio.net> wrote in article
<3512B853...@cp.verio.net>...
< Are you a Zildjian stockholder who will be possibly financially affected
by Zild's decision <to release these cymbals?
I did a stock ticker lookup on Zildjian with no results so they must not be
a publicly traded company. It appears the 375 year old secret isn't the
only thing that's kept "in the family".
Not to sell them short or anything ; )
Stan
stan...@hotmail.com
BCallWIN
In article <3512B853...@cp.verio.net>, "The 5% Nation of Matt"
<ma...@cp.verio.net> writes:
>If it's something good, it'll live.. if it's not, it'll die.
...and there ya have it!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
DRUMMERS!! Ya just gotta visit: http://members.aol.com/BCallWIN/index.html
Colin Odden
> In article <3512B853...@cp.verio.net>, "The 5% Nation of Matt"
> <ma...@cp.verio.net> writes:
>
> >If it's something good, it'll live.. if it's not, it'll die.
I dunno...how old is Strom Thurmond?
Sausage McMuffin? Troll dolls? Internet Explorer?
It's OK, I've got a fireproof suit on so I'm ready for flaming
Colin Odden
Matt-Fu wrote:
> Colin Odden (odd...@osu.edu) wrote:
> : > >If it's something good, it'll live.. if it's not, it'll die.
> : Sausage McMuffin? Troll dolls? Internet Explorer?
> :
> Dude, sausage mcmuffins rock!
> Really though.. logic dictates that they can't keep up production on a line
> of cymbals that isn't "pulling its own weight". The point anyway was, "who
> cares if they make something like that?" It's not like their new remix cymbals
> are going to make my superfly K Custom Dry ride sound bad.
>
> And if one buys Zildjians just because of the brand name and are afraid of
> their image being sullied by these new cymbals that are made by the same
> company, they deserve any agitation they get.
I guess I really wanted to claim that, tastes being subjective, it's hard to
speculate about whether the Remix line will survive or not. Lots of people seem
to get suckered by advertising, or have taste so foreign to mine that products I
expected to bomb completely stay in production for decades, and things I think
are great disappear from lack of popular demand. Lots of stuff I think is crap
sticks around because other people don't think it's crap. I completely agree
about you comments, tho; I used to worry about playing Zildjians (seriously)
because I thought they were overrunning the market, and because I wanted sounds
that were non conventional. However, I did a few blind tests and found that a K
Custom Dry was what I was looking for, along with a couple other Zildjians. I had
a hang-up about the company, one which was unrelated to what I was looking for in
a sound.
Matt-Fu
amuleque
> Lots of stuff I think is crap
> sticks around because other people don't think it's crap.
Como se dice "Titanic"?
Dcymbals
Decir mejor "Hindenburg"