Harry Cangany has fucked up ROYALLY
Robert Schuh
publicly stated I have been making fake Gretsch drums. He is going to
get fucked ROYALLY for this. He is such a sad little man that he can not
use any facts to talk about me, so he has to out right lie. He will
first receive a cease and desist letter from my attorney. If he makes
ANY comment like that afterwards, I am going to own his shitty business.
This is something for the Drumigdet to think about too. Little George
has not come out with that out right lie yet, but he has straddled the
line. The problem with Little George is that he is worth nothing and you
can't sue his wife for his mental deficiencies.
--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche
"The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
JohnFuckPope
GET A LIFE!
GET A JOB!!!!!!
GET A GIG!!!!!!!
REALY!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rolo Tomasi
ramalane
"Robert Schuh" <r...@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:3ED05D36...@robschuh.com...
: I just received 2 e mails from people stating that old Harry has
: publicly stated I have been making fake Gretsch drums. He is going to
: get fucked ROYALLY for this. He is such a sad little man that he can not
: use any facts to talk about me, so he has to out right lie. He will
: first receive a cease and desist letter from my attorney. If he makes
: ANY comment like that afterwards, I am going to own his shitty business.
: This is something for the Drumigdet to think about too. Little George
: has not come out with that out right lie yet, but he has straddled the
: line. The problem with Little George is that he is worth nothing and you
: can't sue his wife for his mental deficiencies.
Did the people that contacted you mention how they were contacted? If it
was via email then we can trace them....
remailers be damned, I have contacts that owe me. :o)
/ramalane
--
In my beloved state of South Carolina
sending or accepting a challenge to duel
is a misdemeanor, as is carrying or deliver-
ing that challenge to another party...
"Hell, I've got $300! Let's throw down!" -Ramalane
Jonathan Peirce
you dont 'have' an attorney.
unless its the one that got you out of the 'im takin it up the ass
club'
harrys an ass. you just figuring that out?
jesus, stop worrying about all the idiots on ebay, the net, whos
charging too much, etc, and just go play your fuckin drums....
jp
In article <3ED05D36...@robschuh.com>, Robert Schuh
<r...@robschuh.com> wrote:
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I'd sell my soul for a Formula 1 racing car" - Bart Simpson
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
George Lawrence
think you put Gretsch badges on new shells and advertise them and sell them
as real Gretsches. I think you are more likely to be killed by someone you
have provoked than of natural causes. Sue me. I'd shoot for about a million
which is what my real estate is worth.
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800
"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"Robert Schuh" <r...@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:3ED05D36...@robschuh.com...
BlueM0ZARK
think you put Gretsch badges on new shells and advertise them and sell them as
real Gretsches.>
Let me make it *even easier*. schuh stated in an email once that this is
exactly what he was doing - selling re-labeled Keller shells as Gretsch drums.
I'll even quote what he said - "Nobody can tell these from real Gretsch drums".
Go ahead and call me a liar, schuh...but, before you do - you need to remember
in detail *exactly* what you've written in every email reply about your
"Gretsch" drums.
What goes around - *will* come around. Mark my words...
NoSheeples
That's what I call nuclear.
Anthony Giampa
something to any Keller bass drums he makes... something to identify it as
'not Gretsch' (perhaps something on the paper tag). He tells the people, I
guess, but along the lines someone will omit the fact and then it in a way
will become 'real' because no one knows better. As long as his 12's and 14's
are real 60's stuff and he tells them of the Kellers, there should be no
problem.
Another reason is because I'm about to do it myself; I'm building a custom
snare with all Gretsch parts (well, Pearl cast hoops). I'm leaving the
interior clear though, and I will be sure to pull off the badge if I ever
have to sell it (which I hope/doubt I ever will). I'll probably open up that
existing hole and put a threaded air grommet in it's place. The reason is
simple: I have always wanted an 8-lug Gretsch, and I cannot afford $350-$400
for a nice Round Badge example. And I want it in a sparkle/glitter; I'm not
going to re-recover my SBP 6-Lug Gretsch. I am already calling this upcoming
snare (Which I haven't even built yet) the 'Gretschplica.'
Also, I have sort of done with with a WFL snare... it was a real WFL shell,
but -MIKE- cut it from 10x14 to 5.5x14, and I basically drilled it into a
Classic snare... I have since altered my design, and I'm making it into a
'Concept' snare... It will now basically be a Classic snare but with
Imperial lugs, I'll dub it the 'Imperial Classic'. But I'm thinking of
writing on the top reinforcing ring, on the bottom edge: "Not a factory
drum, Custom built 2002." I'm trying to finish it off with nickel hoops
before I make that step though.
Basically my defense is I'm not making (whatever you want to call them)
drums for obvious profit. I'm basically doing it to get the sound and look I
want for cheaper.
--
--
Anthony Giampa; Impe...@cox.net
"Pity makes me strong." -- Conan O'Brien
"BlueM0ZARK" <bluem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030525144630...@mb-m21.aol.com...
Thunder
You say that so often. Do you live on a carousel?
BlueM0ZARK
No, schuh, but you'll think you're on a carousel after your first round with
your cell block buddies that you'll soon be living with.
BlueM0ZARK
You guessed wrong, Anthony. He sells Keller shells and tells people they're
100% Gretsch. And guess what?
He's about to *go down* for doing it.
Sean Conolly
news:GP9Aa.32820$Dr3.11486@fed1read02...
> I don't really have a problem with Rob does, but I think he should do
> something to any Keller bass drums he makes... something to identify it as
> 'not Gretsch' (perhaps something on the paper tag). He tells the people, I
> guess, but along the lines someone will omit the fact and then it in a way
> will become 'real' because no one knows better. As long as his 12's and
14's
> are real 60's stuff and he tells them of the Kellers, there should be no
> problem.
>
> Another reason is because I'm about to do it myself; I'm building a custom
> snare with all Gretsch parts (well, Pearl cast hoops). I'm leaving the
> interior clear though, and I will be sure to pull off the badge if I ever
> have to sell it (which I hope/doubt I ever will). I'll probably open up
that
> existing hole and put a threaded air grommet in it's place. The reason is
> simple: I have always wanted an 8-lug Gretsch, and I cannot afford
$350-$400
> for a nice Round Badge example. And I want it in a sparkle/glitter; I'm
not
> going to re-recover my SBP 6-Lug Gretsch. I am already calling this
upcoming
> snare (Which I haven't even built yet) the 'Gretschplica.'
Interesting questions. Is it wrong to deliberately counterfeit a drum if:
it's for your own exclusive use? (what you're describing)
or it's for sale to people who clearly understand that it's counterfeit?
(what Rob is doing)
I have a tenuous and baseless belief that the law will look at the artifact
and not the intention. If you make a counterfeit $100 bill that isn't
clearly labeled as such you're in trouble. The same is true for creating
'historical' documents and 'rare' paintings, if the article isn't
deliberately marked to show it's not authentic, it's probably illegal. I
wouldn't lose any sleep over it if it's just for my own use, but I would
never sell such an item without making sure it was clearly marked as such.
Doing anything else could be on slippery legal ground, I believe.
Sean
NoSheeples
>100% Gretsch. And guess what?
>He's about to *go down* for doing it.
Hint. Write a letter to ebay pretending to be Gretch. Ebay does not want the
trouble or lawsuit. That will be end of Wobbie and his fake drum sales. You
can't call ebay and complain to safe harbor. They will not answer the phone
period. I know from expirence. ;o)
Thunder
fellow that was just as obsessed with Rob the Knob.
You drummers are a bunch of fucking psychos, at least compared to the guitar
and bass usenet posts. Bassists seem the most stable and intelligent but
always have a beef with guitarists. Get the fuck over it. The guitarists
have a large representation of hammerheads and morons but that is to be
expected. The drummer group has a lot of good posters but some real nuts.
Don't even get me started on the amp newsgroup and the political nazis.
Good luck with your obsession Mozark. One of these days someone won't be
posting here anymore. But until that day comes you can expe
"BlueM0ZARK" <bluem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030525200924...@mb-m06.aol.com...
BlueM0ZARK
No, you're rob schuh, and you fooling nobody. Give it a rest.
Dan Radin
news:Nnudne2N1cB...@comcast.com...
> You know, I'm just an observer but you sure sound a lot like that AZ Hoser
> fellow that was just as obsessed with Rob the Knob.
>
> You drummers are a bunch of fucking psychos, at least compared to the
guitar
> and bass usenet posts. Bassists seem the most stable and intelligent but
> always have a beef with guitarists. Get the fuck over it. The guitarists
> have a large representation of hammerheads and morons but that is to be
> expected. The drummer group has a lot of good posters but some real nuts.
> Don't even get me started on the amp newsgroup and the political nazis.
>
> Good luck with your obsession Mozark. One of these days someone won't be
> posting here anymore. But until that day comes you can expe
Oh no! Don't leave us hanging like th
Michael Fell
>< You know, I'm just an observer >
>
>No, you're rob schuh, and you fooling nobody. Give it a rest.
Every time Rob gets his rear end in a sling one or two new anonymous
posters arrive. They kind of stick up for him of course they take
little jabs at Rob just to attempt to make it seem it really is not
Rob doing the posting. I don't buy it for a moment. How many screen
names has Rob used over the years? My guess for this year alone he is
up to about five or six. Hey Rob you really need to find another
newsgroup. We know you to well here.
Mike
nick amoroso
verify that.
peace,
:nick amoroso:
professional drums and instruction
proud endorser of silver fox drumsticks
-----
"...feel and groove are far more important than any 13/16 flam-5-a-diddle
roundhouse tom fill in some stupid song about sci-fi crap" ~ dan radin
Thunder
Or is it just me? Or maybe Mozark is. Or Fell. Agggghhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!
I'm all around me. I have me surrounded.
"Michael Fell" <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7KTRPj5TJXRC4r...@4ax.com...
Thunder
"Dan Radin" <dan....@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:9HfAa.15735$fT5....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net...
joem
to state what I've observed: I've looked at several of Rob's auctions.
pretty much every one of them has said "this is a Keller shell" (or a
70's gretsch with 60's round-badge, or a converted whatever, etc.) when
there was one up there. He's stated several times that if you've ever
seen a Jasper shell before, you can tell in a second if you've been sold
a Keller and not a Jasper (by looking at the plies) but that a lot of
people can't tell a difference sonically between the two. so he will
label them as gretsch (with 'RS' prepending the serial number on fake
tags) and notify people that they are indeed fake. at least, I've seen
him do this on several occasions. whether or not he's sold something
that wasn't gretsch (at some point) and claimed that it was is another
question.
joe.
George Lawrence
And we're usually sleeping with your women and they give us your gig money.
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800
"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"Thunder" <no...@mofo.com> wrote in message
news:Nnudne2N1cB...@comcast.com...
George Lawrence
This is bs on Rob's part. A fake Gretsch is a fake Gretsch whether you say
it is or not. If it wasn't made at the Gretsch factory then it's basically a
repair job; a bastard made of parts. I've made a couple of Gretsch
"mongrels' for lack of a mate to an old set myself. The difference is that
I'm not advertising them as Gretsch drums on Ebay. I also used Jasper
shells, glue instead of tape the wrap and cut the bearing edges correctly
because I want them to sound like Gretsches. It doesn't matter a rat's ass
to me that Rob sells these poor fake Gretsches because the few times that
I've had customers mention drums he sells on Ebay I've been able to show
them that they don't want to do business with a person like him. All it
takes is a couple of links to some of his more angry usenet posts in this
group and other groups. He has actually sent me business unintentionally.
I'm sure it doesn't matter financially at all to Gretsch or Kaman that he is
doing this because the amount of drums Rob tapes together doesn't amount to
a hill of beans in relationship to the numbers that they make or the numbers
that we dealers sell, but I guarantee you that it matters to them in
principle. All it would take is for a dealer or two to complain and Rob's
sources would dry up pronto. Kaman makes helicopters and shit for the
government and their expensive lawyers would probably come up with something
more than a puny cease and desist letter . All it takes is one phone call.
I'll let somebody else cha-cha with Rob this time though. I'm too busy to
jerk him off. I would suggest that Rob keep it quiet and continue to fly
under the radar so he doesn't have to get a business license and pay all
those back taxes on his business income that he thinks he's getting away
with.
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800
"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"joem" <jmelnyk@REMOVE_THIS_PARTcs.kent.edu> wrote in message
news:slrnbd1kcq....@localhost.localdomain...
George Lawrence
Sorry. I had a Rob Schuh "I'm more educated than you are" moment. :-)
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800
"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"George Lawrence" <drum...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:cNiAa.25096$%_3.98...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
Bill Ray
BR
"George Lawrence" <drum...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:7niAa.25093$%_3.98...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
Bob Wennerstrom
can remember the proper quote...
Drummer at large
joem
> There is a difference in sound between a Keller shell and a Jasper shell.
> This is bs on Rob's part. A fake Gretsch is a fake Gretsch whether you say
> it is or not. If it wasn't made at the Gretsch factory then it's basically a
> repair job; a bastard made of parts. I've made a couple of Gretsch
> "mongrels' for lack of a mate to an old set myself. The difference is that
> I'm not advertising them as Gretsch drums on Ebay.
I was simply stating that, in the auctions I've seen (which are many),
Rob has listed them as Gretsch when the majority of the kit is indeed
genuine Gretcsh. He will then describe which drum (if any) is not
genuine Gretsch. So in those cases, he's not trying to fool anyone with
anything. He may be selling a bastard mongrel of a drum labeled as
Gretsch (for better or worse), but he's not lying about doing it.
Joe.
BlueM0ZARK
Apparently there are quite a few of his past auctions you *haven't seen* (which
are also many).
< He may be selling a bastard mongrel of a drum labeled as Gretsch (for better
or worse), but he's not lying about doing it. >
He has also had many private contacts (drum deals) thru his ebay dealings in
which there is absolutely no question whatsoever that he is lying about what he
is doing.
Sean Conolly
Private deals, eh? And the reason you know the secret details is.....?
BlueM0ZARK
I have already posted this. I have email from rsc...@yahoo.com where schuh
gave full details to a prospective customer on how he does these drums. No, I
won’t be posting it on rmmp. I have the facts on this, and that is all that
matters for now.
Before he spews more of his vitriol here directed at Harry Cangany or anyone
else, schuh *really needs* to remember that he gave this information out to
someone, at one point.
Thunder
sci-fi movie. Drunken Sweaty Drummers From Planet-X.
"George Lawrence" <drum...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:7niAa.25093$%_3.98...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
George Lawrence
Rob has listed them as Gretsch when the majority of the kit is indeed
genuine Gretcsh.
agreed.
He will then describe which drum (if any) is not
genuine Gretsch.
agreed.
>So in those cases, he's not trying to fool anyone with
anything.
I disagree. He is either bullshitting about the Keller shell sounding like
the Jasper shell or he can't hear the difference. He also tapes the wrap
which makes the drum sound different from one that has the wrap glued. I
can't remember whether he mentions this or omits it, but to say that it
sounds the same with the tape is either bullshit or he can't hear the
differnece and to not mention that it differs from the Gretsch glued wrap
is deceit by ommission. Taped wrap is found only on low end drums for a
reason. Both of these factors negate the legitimacy of the drum to the point
that no serious buyer who knew what to look for would touch it, even if he
wanted a replica. He is fooling these Japanese and other foreign and
domestic guys because they don't know what to look for. If he wanted to make
a nice Gretsch replica then he would buy a Jasper shell (there are still
sources but I know one who wouldn't sell to Rob), cut the same thirty degree
edges and glue the wrap on. It's so easy to do. There are plenty of people
who could build a counterfeit drum the cheap way that rob does but they
don't because they have consciences and would feel bad about trying to pass
off the Keller shell, taped wrap, wrong edges, etc.
>He may be selling a bastard mongrel of a drum labeled as
Gretsch (for better or worse), but he's not lying about doing it.
Would you buy one of the Keller shell drums from him? :-)
If anyone wants to buy a nice Gretsch replica wrapped drum from an
authorized Gretsch dealer, call me and I guarantee I won't cut any corners.
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800
"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"joem" <jmelnyk@REMOVE_THIS_PARTcs.kent.edu> wrote in message
news:slrnbd1tms....@localhost.localdomain...
joem
> anything.
>
> I disagree. He is either bullshitting about the Keller shell sounding like
> the Jasper shell or he can't hear the difference.
That's a matter of opinion, though. So it doesn't really pertain to the
statement above (i.e. to whether or not Rob wraps keller shells and
claims that they're Jasper/Gretsch).
> He also tapes the wrap
> which makes the drum sound different from one that has the wrap glued. I
> can't remember whether he mentions this or omits it,\
I've never seen it mentioned.
> but to say that it
> sounds the same with the tape is either bullshit or he can't hear the
> differnece and to not mention that it differs from the Gretsch glued wrap
> is deceit by ommission.
I guess it just depends on your viewpoint and whether you agree with
such details. I have never tested the two to see any difference, so I
can't say. But I understand your point.
>>He may be selling a bastard mongrel of a drum labeled as
> Gretsch (for better or worse), but he's not lying about doing it.
>
> Would you buy one of the Keller shell drums from him? :-)
If I wanted a Jasper-shell kit and he had a good price on it, I would
(because you can tell that they're Jasper). There's no need to buy a
Keller shell kit from him when it's cheaper elsewhere, though.
Bottom line: everyone was saying something to the effect of "he wraps
keller shells and claims that they're gretsch." And while I can't say
he *hasn't* done this (only he really knows for sure), I can say that he
*has* mentioned in many of his auctions the fact that he has wrapped a
keller shell and placed a Gretsch badge on it. So *in those instances*
he's not lying about a keller shell being a gretsch because he outright
says that it's not.
Anything else, I have no idea about. He could very well have wrapped
several Keller shells and sold them as gretsch to someone who doesn't
know any better *without* mentioning the fact that they're fake. But
unless you've seen such a drum or he's admitted to doing exactly that
(without telling the buyer), then only Rob knows if this has ever
occurred. Know what I mean?
Joe.
DD
shoes.
;)
"George Lawrence" <drum...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:7niAa.25093$%_3.98...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
George Lawrence
> > the Jasper shell or he can't hear the difference.
>
> That's a matter of opinion, though. So it doesn't really pertain to the
> statement above (i.e. to whether or not Rob wraps keller shells and
> claims that they're Jasper/Gretsch).
I have Keller and Jasper shells here. Come by one day and do the A/B test.
It's not a matter of opinion. They sound different because of the different
thicknesses ( Kellers are generally thinner plies) and the wood composition.
My overall point is that these details do matter and I would rather the
customer be made aware of the differences.
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800
"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"joem" <jmelnyk@REMOVE_THIS_PARTcs.kent.edu> wrote in message
news:slrnbd4pk7....@localhost.localdomain...
Anthony Giampa
--
--
Anthony Giampa; Impe...@cox.net
"Pity makes me strong." -- Conan O'Brien
"Michael Fell" <mfel...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:7KTRPj5TJXRC4r...@4ax.com...
JimD
> I just received 2 e mails from people stating that old Harry has
> publicly stated I have been making fake Gretsch drums. He is going to
> get fucked ROYALLY for this. He is such a sad little man that he can not
> use any facts to talk about me, so he has to out right lie. He will
> first receive a cease and desist letter from my attorney. If he makes
> ANY comment like that afterwards, I am going to own his shitty business.
> This is something for the Drumigdet to think about too. Little George
> has not come out with that out right lie yet, but he has straddled the
> line. The problem with Little George is that he is worth nothing and you
> can't sue his wife for his mental deficiencies.
>
> --
> Robert Schuh
> "Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
> intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
> the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
> the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
> - Nietzsche
>
> "The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
Hey robert,
Check this shit out. I lurk around at DCI and check out what Cagny is
spewing.
Drum Center Forum / General "Drum Talk" / When to Recover.... Search
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Posted By Discussion Topic: When to Recover....
HCangany 05-25-2003 @ 1:57 PM
Administrator
Posts: 1962
Joined: Dec. 99
more info This is an age old conversation. but chime in. I think
there are too many instances of drum sellers taking perfectly
acceptable drums and stripping them to match a set to have something
to sell. I grant that there are times when finishes are shot. But
sometimes, too many times, that is not the case. After years of
thinking about this and rethinking, I feel that we are temporary
owners. And no matter how we feel that we will own something forever,
or it's "my drum and I will do what I want", or "I couldn't find it in
x, so I recovered them all to match" or "I don't care, I just want to
sell drums", the truth is we are temporary owners. It is so good to
see something brought back without any changes. Something beautiful
can exist for 30-40-50 years and then, blam, the edges are recut, the
tom holder gets changed, the finish is pulled off--the Drum Center has
turned down business because we just can't morally change something
just because someone wants it done to satisy a current idea.
Sometimes, with time, the passion cools and the owner realizes that
the vintage world needs every part and drum intact--or at least, the
very highest percentage of them. I believe that if someone at least
takes the time to think and consider what changes do in the long run,
then we have served the right purpose. What do you think?
Harry Cangany
MarkShiner 05-25-2003 @ 2:46 PM
Member
Posts: 316
Joined: Dec. 01
more info Well, I'll say this: certain drumsets belong in
the hands of collectors who will cherish them,
and certain ones just don't. If a drum already
has extra holes or really bad edges or
whatever, I don't see how those drums are
somehow so sacrosanct that they shouldn't
be made serviceable.
The edges on my RB Gretsches are mildly
ratty-- not a problem at medium to high
tunings, but ugly at low tunings. I have no
moral qualms whatsoever about getting the
edges redone-- getting Nodar Rode to redo
the edges is not going to hurt the drums, and
the cuts that the Gretsch employee made are
not sacred. But tearing a perfectly good
original WMP wrap off a drum to make it red
sparkle seems somehow problematic.
I guess for me it comes down to this: If it ain't
broke, don't fix it. If it IS broke, do.
Bluenote 05-25-2003 @ 2:58 PM
Member
Posts: 1692
Joined: Feb. 00
more info Harry, I am wrestling with this very thing right now.
I recently bought a 3 pc 1960 Rogers Eagle badge kit that is appears
to have originally been a cocktail kit, with a bass drum added later
(the bass drum is an early script, the toms are Eagle), or, they are
part of a larger outfit.
Anyway, there's one set of x-holes on the floor tom and and it also
came equipped with a cymbal mount and arm, too. The bass drum has
three mounts; two for cymbal arms and one for the tom. I only use the
tom mount.
The blue sparkle pearl is blistering, but not badly. There are two
three-inch cracks in the pearl, one in the bass, one in the floor.
I've been thinking of re-wrapping the kit in some of the new white
onyx available from Jack Lawton. The x-holes that are there, those
that would result if those unused mounts were removed, would be
covered. The set sounds great, and it'd be nice to have looks to
match.
But it's tough. In the spirit of your term "perfectly acceptable",
these drums should NOT be re-covered. Cripes, I use the kit at
practice, and leave them at the guitarist's place. The band thinks I
could use them for gigs, just as they are.
"You're gonna recover them? How come? They're nice drums."
That has led me to just stop and take a good look at them after
practice sometimes and ask: Would it be right? I try to see what they
see.
Other people don't notice things like unused mounts and the pearl
cracks don't jump out at you, you would have to scrutinize the kit to
locate them.
I'm glad I haven't acted on them yet. Once they're done, there's no
turning back.
-Ron
The best drums in the world are the ones you just cannot wait to play.
This message was edited by Bluenote on 5-25-03 @ 2:59 PM
billferr 05-25-2003 @ 3:08 PM
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Joined: Feb. 03
more info I've had several debates with people about taking a set
that was together for 40+ years and parting it out. I think we should
do our best to keep these vintage drums together for as long as we
can.
BUT
When a set is no longer a vintage collectable due to modifications,
extra holes, cracks
and excessive fade, then I don't see anything wrong with refurbishing
it. And the more original parts you can use, the better.
Here's a picture of a good example. This set was in the garbage,
totally ruined when a friend (sponge bob) gave them to me.
After spending a few hundred dollars I have the best little set I've
ever played
By the way the set was a stop sign badge set and now it's a round
badge set
Does this make me a criminal? picture
This message was edited by billferr on 5-25-03 @ 3:12 PM
drumphils 05-25-2003 @ 3:40 PM
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Posts: 881
Joined: Oct. 01
more info Cosmetics is the issue, if theres a chunk out of the
bearing edge or the heads are broken rendering it unplayable, then fix
it, otherwise just play it the way it is.
I have some 70's Pearl fiberglass that are tobacco stained yellow from
natural age and somewhat from being exposed to West Texas honky tonks,
which then ended up in an Orange County garage and were perhaps used
as a proto-type for OCDP as the 14" has TWO additional 3" round holes
drilled in it. The bass spur mounts are there but the spurs are
missing so rather than seach for replacements someone drilled NEW
holes and inserted 10" long threaded bolt to use as spurs!
So what!! you cant kill fiberglass and they SCREAM! 30 yr old drums
and thats the way I like it. I'm every bit as proud of those drums as
anything I bought new yesterday when it comes to visual aspects.
Should someone need an 8x12 in blue or red or whatever, why the hell
not buy a new raw shell and glue away. If you dont like the way the
drum looks to begin with let someone else have it who does.
Phil
HCangany 05-25-2003 @ 3:56 PM
Administrator
Posts: 1962
Joined: Dec. 99
more info Absoultely, I understand WHEN to recover--holes, plastic
wrap missing or badly hurt, wrong mounts, damage--never have an
argument from me. What about making four drums match when there is
nothing wrong--it's just three are blue and one is red? I had a guy
write me not long ago to ask why his friends thought he was crazy to
take red sparkle off 4 Ludwig drums to turn them into Oyster Black--he
loves Ringo, and he wants to drill for a Rogers Swivo mount. I told
him why they thought he was crazy--or how about taking a new shell and
putting a vintage badge on it? Or even putting a new badge on it, when
it clearly not from that manufacturer? You see, the first owner may
know the whole story but first owners sell drums...and what about the
third owner? Did you ever hear of someone who can't figure out why
something is the way it is, so he calls it a "prototype"? Sometimes,
we think what we are seeing is original,then come to the conclusion
that something is wrong--maybe it's a fake or a rewrap. Some of them
are excellent. I would search forever if I thought of recovering if
the condition did not already call for recovering.
Harry Cangany
wartime 05-25-2003 @ 4:13 PM
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more info HC wrote:
This is an age old conversation. but chime in. I think there are too
many instances of drum sellers taking perfectly acceptable drums and
stripping them to match a set to have something to sell.
What's so wrong about this? In the food industry, restaurant owners
routinely modify their menu to sell off an overage (The roasted
chicken special on Monday becomes chicken noodle soup by Saturday).
That's part of business and I can't believe most business owners stand
on ceremony to forsake profit.
HC wrote
I grant that there are times when finishes are shot. But sometimes,
too many times, that is not the case.
This is an awfully broad assumption
HC wrote:
After years of thinking about this and rethinking, I feel that we are
temporary owners. And no matter how we feel that we will own something
forever, or it's "my drum and I will do what I want", or "I couldn't
find it in x, so I recovered them all to match" or "I don't care, I
just want to sell drums", the truth is we are temporary owners.
Temporary owners??? Last I checked, I permanently own all the drums
in my possession without one iota of lien from anyone else.
HC wrote:
It is so good to see something brought back without any changes.
Something beautiful can exist for 30-40-50 years and then, blam, the
edges are recut, the tom holder gets changed, the finish is pulled
off—
But taking a snare drum away from that 30-40-50yr old set is ok,
right? Besides, who's to dictate what can and can't be done to
something YOU own. What's the difference if it's rolled down a hill
once you've sold it? (even if it were in a moment of adolescent
ignorance)
HC wrote:
the Drum Center has turned down business because we just can't morally
change something just because someone wants it done to satisy a
current idea.
You're certainly a rare bird Harry or too wealthy to be turning away
income.
HC wrote:
Sometimes, with time, the passion cools and the owner realizes that
the vintage world needs every part and drum intact--or at least, the
very highest percentage of them. I believe that if someone at least
takes the time to think and consider what changes do in the long run,
then we have served the right purpose. What do you think?
I think it's solely up to the current owner to decide what's right for
him and nobody else (unless he so desires to do so). Let's face it,
most collectors in any category could give a rat's ass about anything
other than how little they expect to pay for something they want. Sad
but true.
Kill or be killed!
Ellis 05-25-2003 @ 4:53 PM
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more info RIGHT ON, wartime!!! You nailed every point! HAHAHA! Good
one on ya!
SteveB 05-25-2003 @ 5:27 PM
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Posts: 2494
Joined: Nov. 00
more info I can see both sides and there probably isn't a real sound
answer to any of this...which is why we ponder it so much. Wartime did
make a good point about the snares that have been taking away from
their original kits; that has to figure in there somewhere. Bill
mentions changing a badge from square to round (nice set by the way!)
but will that confuse a buyer down the road thinking he is getting the
60's model? Who knows...you gotta be on your toes with this stuff if
you are a buyer. In the early 70's I converted 2 toms from Holidays to
Ludwigs to match my other drums yet I don't think it was
criminal...that's what I had to work with living on a musicians salary
(celery was more like it). Recently, I bought back my old set of
Dayton Rogers, set the Swivo aside and decided to install a Memriloc
tom holder instead due to my playing style, plus I honestly think it's
a better design than the Swivomatic. the shells were weak and needed
major repair which I did and then I recovered them in a finish that I
though would match an original Rogers color closely, because the
Champagne had been removed anyway (by me 32 years ago).
Drummers have been doing these kinds of things for ever to get the set
they like and I really don't have problem with it. The turning point
to me would be say 1950 and back or a pristine 60's Rogers, Gretsch or
other kit that is flawless; it would be a shame to alter a drumset
like this and I would puposely stay away from these so they get in the
right hands. I haven't left a set stock in my whole life so I know my
tendencies. I use what works for me in all cases, but if I owned a
drum like the ones you have Harry or Mike Curotto's I wouldn't dare
alter them, just repair them where needed.
It's tough to know where to draw the line, but monetary reasons would
be one. I wouldn't alter a drumset to make someone believe they were
buying a more prized model just to make a profit...I think that is
crossing the line.
Steve Balsavage
"Just imagine...ME...working for YOU."
DrumBob 05-25-2003 @ 9:26 PM
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Posts: 1421
Joined: Nov. 01
more info This is a good topic...controversial too...I say if the
drums look lousy after years of use, recover them and make them look
good again. If the edges are shot, have them fixed as close to
original as possible. I can use examples from experience.
Years ago, I pieced together a set of Slinger/Leedy drums from
orphans. The rack tom was wmp, the bass drum was blue satin flame, the
floor tom was red sparkle, etc. The Shelly Manne snare was actually
pink sparkle! In this case, I rescued some orphan drums and gave them
a home.
Several years ago, I ripped the champagne sparkle
off my old Slingerland set because it looked like crap after years of
gigging and abuse. I have yet to recover them, but I plan on doing so
real soon.
This is my first drumset, and although I will never sell them, one
day, my kids will when I'm gone. I want them to look good. They were
well used...time to spruce them up.
I own the Ludwig set formerly owned by Jerry Edmonton of Steppenwolf.
Jerry's wife gave them to me after Jerry was killed in a car accident.
The drums were originally a maple finish, but were then covered with
chrome wrap and finally, Jerry spray painted them a horrible
greyish-silver inside and out. What am I to do with these drums? Re-do
them original maple or recover them in a wrap I like? I still haven't
figured it out, so they sit untouched in my basement. I say I re-do
them in oyster black-the Ludwig color I always wanted.
wartime...We are only temporary owners of musical instruments. Most of
them will last longer than we will. You may not think so, but some
day, you're going to die and your drums will be passed along to your
heirs.
Back to the subject...Only fix what needs to be fixed!
DW Drummer signing off
edsel95 05-25-2003 @ 10:05 PM
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Posts: 1670
Joined: May. 00
more info Harry, I must agree with you if only for the fact that I
have two recovered sets.
Set #1, 18,12,15 all orphan drums, 18 full of holes, carriage bolts
and a Pearl two holer. 15 was a hanging tom with a clip mount AND a
Pearl mount, 12 was OK but was bought to rewrap. Coupled with a
rewrapped and re-edged very scarred Ludwig Down Beat pic. No badge on
the Pic, B/O Badges on the rest, just for fun. Not only are the sizes
wierd, the set is Purple Sparkle and everyone knows Ludwig didn't make
no purple sparkle with B/O badges. It's my little hot rod and I would
never be able to pass it off as anything else.
Set #2 Radio King WMP Rewrap 22,13,16 of a cigarette burned/scarred
22, a stripped 16 and a badly yellowed 13. The 22 came with strings
attached so the kit is Not For Sale. The Snare is a WMP rewrap over a
pink sparkle rewrap of a drum that had been stripped of its original
covering and the shell was all marred and scarred. I have a WMP RK
canister throne but have no intentions of rewrapping it as there is
nothing wrong with it. It really does not match the rewraps but it
really doesn't matter. Another hot rod with RIMS mounts and a virgin
BD on a cradle.
I would not consider doing this again on any of my other sets as they
are all original and complete and if I want a red sparkle Anything
13,16,18,24, I'm just going to have to find one.
edsel
Voting Barry Bonds/Julia Child in '04.
billferr 05-26-2003 @ 12:27 AM
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Posts:
Joined: Feb. 03
more info Here's another example of turning junk into gold
Junk into Gold
I found a badly damaged 60's Gretsch tangerine bass drum; the only
salvageable thing was a 4" wide hunk of the finish. Then I found a 14"
Gretsch parade drum from the 60's with a nice round badge in the
middle. The next step was to cut out 4 inches of the middle leaving
the round badge hole, applying the tangerine finish, cutting the
edges, installing all original Gretsch parts that I had sitting in my
basement in boxes and Ba Da bing an all original 60's Gretsch piccolo
4X14 snare drum.
Except it was assembled in the year 2003
Now am I criminal?
wartime 05-26-2003 @ 7:01 AM
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Joined: Mar. 03
more info billferr:
that is criminal and you should be burned at the "steak"...medium
rare!
very nice drum.
Kill or be killed!
oldstix 05-26-2003 @ 7:29 AM
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Joined: Dec. 02
more info There's a simple fact that applies to coins, drums, guns,
books, paintings, antiques....
If everyone kept everything then
everything's value would be nothing
For the most part, scarcity/rarity imparts value and the person that
changes, ruins or discards something today is creating value for
someone else tomorrow.
gsw 05-26-2003 @ 8:30 AM
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more info Billfer... amazing!!!
A year ago I found a messed up Tangerine Sparkle center lug bass drum.
I was able to salvage enough wrap to do this, but I haven't run into
a rewrap candidate 4x14 yet.
I have a 5x14 with my Tang. bop set, but someday I am going to do this
too.
I'm not paying no $1400 for one on Ebay!
Greg
This message was edited by gsw on 5-26-03 @ 8:31 AM
DolFan54 05-26-2003 @ 9:53 AM
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Joined: Dec. 02
more info I found a psychedelic red Ludwig kit that was trashed,
shell wise.The finish was badly faded, but there were no extra holes
in these drums. The problem was the reinenforcement hoops had come
seperated from the shells aand all the shells were out of round.It
probably would have been easier to remove the wrap and rebuid them and
re-wrap in something else, but with a lot of bondo & glue I managed to
get the drums back in playing condition with all shells except the
floor back into round. On another note I couldn't salvage a Gretsch
Tangerine sparkle kit, so I re-wrapped them in new Tang.Sparkle, but I
did leave the snare as is with bad wrap. So, I guess for me it depends
on the situation, some drums you just can't save without altering
them. The Gretsches got re-wrapped & the Ludwigs got new bearing edges
& a lot more glue & bondo.One was playable but looked ugly,so I made
it pretty, the other I made playable and it still looked ugly (that
psych red is UGLY)
Proud Owner Of 1968 Ludwig Mod Orange 12/13/16/22
hemant 05-26-2003 @ 10:45 AM
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Posts: 1594
Joined: Feb. 00
more info I recovered to match. I had a set of square badge Gretsch
in White Nitron 24/12/13/16/18. I had the whole thing recovered in
Tony Williams yellow. The shells were in perfect shape, but I had the
L-arms taken off, plugged the two small holes and RIMS mounted them.
I had the diamond leg brackets taken off and replaced with new Gretsch
FT brackets. At the end of the day I had a showroom new Gretsch kit
at a fraction of the cost of a new one. To me it gives me a buzz to
play behind that kit. It really does not matter to me if I knocked
some value off the drums by stripping the usable White Nitron and
updating the FT brackets. It is a players kit -- and I made it more
playable and better looking. Its a great kit, and I am happy I have
given it new life.
I wouldn't have stripped and updated a true vintage gem. However, I
have no qualms about refinishing and updating a player (though you do
roll the dice that it might become more valuable 20-30 years down the
road. However, I'll take my chances and say that square badge Gretsch
are not going to be hot collectibles).
Kindest Regards, Hemant
HCangany 05-26-2003 @ 10:56 AM
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Posts: 1962
Joined: Dec. 99
more info If a hobbyist or player finds a set with problems and
fixes, recovers, whatever--that's one thing, but what I referred to
was a cottage industry--dealers going after "orphans" and recovering
just to put sets together to sell. I think that's wrong--that's what I
am asking about...and wartime, since that was your first post, besides
adding cynicism to your answer, I hope you will also see that wealth
has nothing to do with this--it has to do with a simple matter of
principle in deciding not to undo/redo if not necessary. As a matter
of fact, we have recovered a lot of drums, but only as necessary. If
someone asks us to put a double tom holder on a Gretsch 60s set or
change the color needlessly, we attempt to reason with him. If you
decide to do that with your own drums, be my guest. We are not
standing in judgment, we are discussing a valid topic.
Harry Cangany
Ellis 05-26-2003 @ 11:53 AM
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more info Dude, You do whatever you want with the drums you pay for.
If a guy buys up orphans as you call them and he recovers them to make
a matching kit, then he gave those poor orphans a new home didn't he?
HAHAHAHA! What good are orphans? There are so many sets all broken up
that are floating around now and that's because of vintage collector
types...the guys who wants the perfect set of Radio Kings and will buy
ten beat up sets just to make one good one. After that all the
leftover parts get orphaned. Nothing wrong with the guy who comes
along and sees a way of gathering them up and making something out of
them.
billferr 05-26-2003 @ 12:34 PM
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Joined: Feb. 03
more info Ellis
I have to disagree, orphans should be kept in tack if their in good
shape until a PROPER home is found.
It took me 5 years to find a Perfect match for one of my Blue sparkle
Ludwig sets
And I'm still waiting and hoping to find a 68/69 Ludwig Gold sparkle
clear interior virgin 20" bass drum Keystone badge
I know there must be an orphan out there waiting to be united with the
rest of the set but if every orphan is butchered this set will never
get completed.
I'll keep looking for a few more years
SpongeBob 05-26-2003 @ 12:50 PM
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Posts: 858
Joined: Apr. 01
more info You know, as hard as it is to say this, Ellis is right.
Why shouldn't someone salvage the discarded pieces, package them and
put them into the hands of wanting drummers. How many young, 'wet
behind the ears' drummers get turned off to drumming when they walk
into a drum center and see that neither they, nor their parents can
afford a new drum set. Granted there are entry level sets but we all
were young once and as a kid, you want what your idols are playing.
Unrealistic maybe, but true. So the next best thing is to buy used.
Well I say, why not a New/used set? It serves may purposes for the
budding, impressionale drummer and will more than likely encourage
them to pursue their passion even harder.
Again, we're not talking about true collectable drums here. And if
you make the argument that a reproduction is a counterfiet then
Gretsch is guilty right now (see 120th Anniversary Round Badge sets).
They're repros that some day might fall into the hands of some
unscrupulous seller who could pass them along to an unsuspecting buyer
as originals. So too are the Ludwig Psych Red sets.
Think about it.
You can't take it with you...so sell it to me!
SpongeBob 05-26-2003 @ 12:54 PM
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Posts: 858
Joined: Apr. 01
more info But Billferr, the drum world doesn't revolve around you or
I. You have to be lucky enough to find that missing piece to your
drum puzzle before somebody else does. Most times we're not so lucky
but every now and then, "the sun does shines on a dog's ass". It's a
hit or miss game pal. And there are too many players involved to make
it an easy game.
You can't take it with you...so sell it to me!
HCangany 05-26-2003 @ 1:12 PM
Administrator
Posts: 1962
Joined: Dec. 99
more info Bob: I think you are out to lunch--and I mean that in a
nice way. I deal with mom and dads and kids all the time. There are
plenty of new sets that are less than any used set is, plus the new
sets have warranties and look modern and have new heads--and if a used
set is rehabbed, the cost goes up. If Gretsch or Ludwig reissues sets
or Black Beauties, then these products are factory originals. If
someone else puts a Gretsch badge on a drum he assembled from parts on
a new Keller shell, it is a reproduction, or call it a counterfeit.
The initial buyer may have no problem with it--it's what happens when
the third buyer has it. There are plenty of times that Modern Drummer
gets queries on "prototypes"--something in the hands of someone who
cannot identify it. Too often, it's just an assembled product that
looks like what it was promoted as. Once more with feeling: I have no
problem with putting Gretsch lugs on a Keller shell--but I do have a
problem when a Gretsch badge goes on it, too--that's where the
possible current or future bad sales practice comes in.
If everyone who ever bought a drumset had the attitude of "I can
change this whenever I want", then we would not have classic sets
today. I believed that the today's player and collector was more tuned
in to save than perhaps is true.
Harry Cangany
SpongeBob 05-26-2003 @ 1:20 PM
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Posts: 858
Joined: Apr. 01
more info Harry,
Funny you say that because I was really out to lunch (Turkey & Swiss
on a roll and bag of chips).
Isn't Gretsch using Keller shells? I believe they are so a "vintage"
round badge on a new Keller shell is basically the same as the "new"
round badge on that same Keller shell. Only the builder using the
vintage round badge is also using vintage hardware. That would make
it a replication and not a reproduction.
You can't take it with you...so sell it to me!
This message was edited by SpongeBob on 5-26-03 @ 1:26 PM
HCangany 05-26-2003 @ 1:25 PM
Administrator
Posts: 1962
Joined: Dec. 99
more info OK--what makes a Gretsch a Gretsch? An 8 ply shell (as
opposed to 6) with Gretsch lugs on it and silver paint from Home
Depot? Stick a badge on it and there you go.....or is a Gretsch a
product one that is made and assembled only in the Gretsch factory? Or
is a Gretsch product one that is authorized by the ownership and
management of Gretsch? Shouldn't Fred Gretsch have the final say so on
what is a Gretsch product? After all, this is beyond the question,
isn't it, on whether we are talkiing about an isolated episode or an
ongoing thing?
Harry Cangany
SpongeBob 05-26-2003 @ 1:32 PM
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Posts: 858
Joined: Apr. 01
more info I collect, play and sell Gretsch drums from the 1950's
(3ply era). I regularly piece together drums, using authentic
hardware and offer them as real Gretsch drums. Am I a counterfeiter
now? Are these drums NOT Gretsch drums because they weren't assembled
in the Gretsch factory? You're playing symantics Harry.
You can't take it with you...so sell it to me!
billferr 05-26-2003 @ 1:43 PM
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more info Sponge bob
I think the drum has to be assembled by a Gretsch employee and not a
short fat guy
HCangany 05-26-2003 @ 1:47 PM
Administrator
Posts: 1962
Joined: Dec. 99
more info Bob: I am not playing semantics.....if a drum needs to be
recovered, recover it...if it's missing a badge, find a badge. Those
drums you talk about are authentic Gretsch....what happens, though, if
someone constantly recovers drums that don't need it? What happens, if
drums that are not trashed are robbed of parts so that a new non
Gretsch drum can look like it is Gretsch...and I mean this for Ludwig
or any other company. This is why DW will not sell it's lugs--they are
very concerned about fake DW drums in the market--they will sell them
to people who prove they are restoring Camco or George Way drums. I
see this as a fork in the road. The good guys will go one way and not
redo unless it is absolutely necessary. Because there are "orphans"
out there to piece together to make a valid set. Gretsch made lots of
kits without floor toms back then--ok, so we look to find floor
toms....the other fork will be taken by guys out to make a current
buck with absolutely minimal or no concern to what they are doing to
the vintage stockpile. Besides the new lookalikes that are home
assembled, that's my other concern.
Harry Cangany
SpongeBob 05-26-2003 @ 2:09 PM
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Posts: 858
Joined: Apr. 01
more info Harry:
If the vintage stock pile is of that much concern to you then why are
you not surmounting a vigilant crusade (assuming you aren't) by buying
as many vintage parts as possible, to save for future generations? Is
it that your concerns aren't that deep or are you really just using
this discussion as a diversion to mask the real issue, which is, you
have a personal problem with Rob Schuh (as previously mentioned in a
deleted thread). Because that's really how this thread got initiated.
Billferr:
I'm not short, I'm just vertically challanged.
I'm not fat, I'm just big boned.
You can't take it with you...so sell it to me!
Ellis 05-26-2003 @ 2:53 PM
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Posts:
Joined: Jul. 02
more info Oh, SNAP! I knew something was familiar with this subject.
Now I get it. This whole thing is really a way of taking a potshot at
Rob Shuh from RMMP. I read the thing there and now when I put 2 + 2
together. Ahhh. and I almost thought it was a legitimate subject for
once instead of the typical gossip/dissention against Company "X". Rob
Shuh is off the hook but this is a pretty cheap way to take a shot at
him if you ask me. Good call SpongeBob. Now I see what this is really
all about.
Anthony Giampa
(which
are also many).>>
Maybe his past few auctions have been with all Gretsch shells? I don't know,
I haven't seen any lately, but as of a couple months ago I always saw him
saying he uses Kellers for his 18"s.
Then you said in your next reply:
<<I have the facts on this, and that is all that
matters for now. >>
The fact your keeping 'facts' on this looks a mite obsessive to me. =)
--
--
Anthony Giampa; Impe...@cox.net
"Pity makes me strong." -- Conan O'Brien
"BlueM0ZARK" <bluem...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030526115809...@mb-m28.aol.com...
NoSheeples
>The fact your keeping 'facts' on this looks a mite obsessive to me. =)
>
It's not hard to let Rob get the best of you.
Rob is very good at what he does. I have some pretty vial stuff Rob use to send
me on a regular basis, including some threats.
I take all threats seriously, and keep them around just in case. That said, If
I had a choice of buying a Gretch kit from Rob or Blue, I think the choice is
obvious. When it comes down to trust, I rather put in someone who does not
post anon all the time and does sneaky stuff. Then again there is no way,
anyone who forged prescriptions would lie about a drum kit is there?
BlueM0ZARK
You're entitled to your opinion on this. I have the information and I can use
it whenever I choose to, "if" I choose to.
NoSheeples
>You're entitled to your opinion on this. I have the information and I can use
>it whenever I choose to, "if" I choose to.
>
The good old Ace card. I know it's there because I have seen it.
Michel
anyone makes a counterfeit item (in this case a Gretsch drum) and put
on a label on it that says "such and such company", even if the seller
specify that this is not a genuine "such and such" good, it introduces
in the market an item that is a counterfeit and can be resold as
genuine. The use without permission of a propriety name, in this case
Gretsch, is improper and probably illegal even if the seller mentions
that the item is not genuine.
Just a thought
Michel
--
" we get old too soon and smart too late"
"George Lawrence" <drum...@ameritech.net> wrote in message news:<nzuAa.25195$%_3.99...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com>...
Robert Schuh
> "Anthony Giampa" <Impe...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:GP9Aa.32820$Dr3.11486@fed1read02...
> > I don't really have a problem with Rob does, but I think he should do
> > something to any Keller bass drums he makes... something to identify it as
> > 'not Gretsch' (perhaps something on the paper tag). He tells the people, I
> > guess, but along the lines someone will omit the fact and then it in a way
> > will become 'real' because no one knows better. As long as his 12's and
> 14's
> > are real 60's stuff and he tells them of the Kellers, there should be no
> > problem.
> >
> > Another reason is because I'm about to do it myself; I'm building a custom
> > snare with all Gretsch parts (well, Pearl cast hoops). I'm leaving the
> > interior clear though, and I will be sure to pull off the badge if I ever
> > have to sell it (which I hope/doubt I ever will). I'll probably open up
> that
> > existing hole and put a threaded air grommet in it's place. The reason is
> > simple: I have always wanted an 8-lug Gretsch, and I cannot afford
> $350-$400
> > for a nice Round Badge example. And I want it in a sparkle/glitter; I'm
> not
> > going to re-recover my SBP 6-Lug Gretsch. I am already calling this
> upcoming
> > snare (Which I haven't even built yet) the 'Gretschplica.'
>
> Interesting questions. Is it wrong to deliberately counterfeit a drum if:
>
> it's for your own exclusive use? (what you're describing)
> or it's for sale to people who clearly understand that it's counterfeit?
> (what Rob is doing)
Sean,
I have NEVER made a fake/Counterfeit drum in my life, so why the fuck are YOU
lying about this. I have stated from DAY one, that when I made these 60s kits
with an 18x14 from a new Keller shell and 60s Gretsch hardware, that they are a
REPRODUCTION. I state that implicitly in my auctions. I have sold over 30 of
those kits and had ZERO complaints. Who complains? Drumigdet, Bleu Balls and
Harry the liar. If you went and bought a Shelby Cobra kit car, is it a fake or
counterfeit? NO. People know what they are buying from me. Once again. Look at
my Ebay feedback. I have well over 600 auctions and 1 negative that was given in
retaliation from some asshole who refused to sell the kit I won on Ebay.
>
>
> I have a tenuous and baseless belief that the law will look at the artifact
> and not the intention. If you make a counterfeit $100 bill that isn't
> clearly labeled as such you're in trouble. The same is true for creating
> 'historical' documents and 'rare' paintings, if the article isn't
> deliberately marked to show it's not authentic, it's probably illegal. I
> wouldn't lose any sleep over it if it's just for my own use, but I would
> never sell such an item without making sure it was clearly marked as such.
> Doing anything else could be on slippery legal ground, I believe.
>
> Sean
Sean,
Why are you commenting one what I do? You don't know shit. Inside the bass drums
I have a Gretsch paper label photo copy that says:
Model #, Schuh Custom, and then the serial #. You don't know what I do nor are
you an attorney. What is VERY real is that Harry and anyone else who claims I am
making "fakes" or "counterfeits" are making libelous accusation with the intent
to harm my business. That is THE perfect case for a libel suit. You like to
whine a lot here, so next time, get your fucking facts straight.
Robert Schuh
Joe,
Needless to say, who cares what Bleu Balls thinks. EVERYTHING he says about me is a
lie. He is obsessed with me every bit as much as Bill Ray, I got fired from the Ike
Turner gig, Drumigdet and Lardo. He is just another fat redneck. THE funniest thing
is the Bleu Balls rails on and on and I NEVER respond to him. He needs to ge a life.
It is readily apparent he has no job nor gigs as much as he posts here. I do wonder
how affords so much food though. EVERY auction I have done, I have also sold over 30
of these kits, with not a SINGLE complaint, I state clearly that the bass drum is a
reproduction of a Gretsch 60s 18x14 made from Keller shell. Once again I ask ANYONE,
if I am doing something wrong, why is my Ebay feedback IMPECCABLE??
Robert Schuh
Georgy is incapable of using facts, so he has to lie. I challenge ANYONE, so show
where I have advertised, sold, etc. a Keller shell drum and said it was a Gretsch.
I have NEVER done so. I am VERY specific in the auctions and state that the bass
drum was made from a new Keller 18x14 shell using the original 60s Gretsch
hardware. Let's also look at the people making the accusations. Has there ever
been a SINGLE buyer? No. It is Harry "I am a sad sack of shit" Cangany, the
Drumigdet, who REALLY believes he is a player in the music world. Remember how he
was going to get me banned from NAMM and never be able to buy drum gear in the US
again?? And of course. Bleu Balls. ALL of these clowns have ZERO credibility when
it comes to me. The all lie about me constantly. The bottom line, I provide a good
service and it pisses them off.
Robert Schuh
Look,
Why do you guys even respond to Bleu Balls? Here is the deal. I will pay either
one of them $1000.00 if they can show where I EVER sold a "fake" or
counterfeit drum. I also want them to pay me $1000.00 when they can not find
anyone. Remember when Georgy claimed I ripped a guy off completely on a kit? He
said a guy sent me a kit and I NEVER paid him. Conveniently, George could never
come up with a name and claimed the guy wanted to be quiet. How fucking silly
is that? Georgy and Bleu are both incapable of using facts, so they have to lie
to get their daily fix of their obsession with me. The other HILARIOUS thing is
that they both claim not to be obsessed with me. Both as sad wanna be fucks. I
am still waiting to get my letter from NAMM stating I can no longer attend. You
know, George has pull EVERYWHERE in the music biz. I really enjoyed his latest
lie about be getting fired from all sorts of gigs here in Phoenix. Wasn't it
also convenient that he could not come up with a SINGLE name. That is no
different from me stating that George ass raped his next door neighbor's son,
but the people refused to press charges and wanted it kept quiet. Come on guys,
at least make a play to be credible. NO ONE will address the issue of my Ebay
feedback. If I am ripping people off all the time, why do I have IMPECCABLE
feedback. I would LOVE to know how Bleu Balls knows about all these side deals
I do. I guess I just sell fake drums to the side deals on not on Ebay? LOLL!
Robert Schuh
The bottom line is that I have sold probably well over 100 kits total and it
just chaps George's ass. He claims he knows how I wrap kits etc. George knows
NOTHING about the drums I build/refurbish etc. He thinks that his narrow opinion
is gospel, on EVERY topic, not just this one. George needs to get a life and
stop his fucking obsession with me. I still will pay the runt $1000.00 if he can
find a SINGLE drum that I have done that is a fake. George, if there are such
problems with my kits, why are there no complaints? Why is it that everyone here
who has bought a kit from me loves it? No matter what Runto George or Bleu Balls
says means jack shit. I have 4 kits going out this week. 2 in the US and 2 to
Europe. One kit has a Keller bass drum and the other kits are all Jasper shells.
I also ask this, find ONE other source who can sell a clean Jasper shell Gretsch
kit, many times with new edges, clean hardware etc. for CLOSE to what I sell
for. You are nut job, so go on one of your OCD binges and Google away. BTW, was
it me or little George who wrote a 10 page diatribe of out of context quotes,
lies etc. from 3 all nighters doing Google searches? It was not me. Tell me, who
has called dozens of retailers trying to get them to not sell me drum gear, who
harassed by probation officer stating I should be violated for calling him
"names," who is wasting his SO, SO precious time, making up lies about me drums?
Case closed. Mighty mouse has also stated that I am his "nemesis." What a sad
little fuck. Typical case of Napoleon syndrome along with a sever lacking in the
pants department.. I am guessing that George is just worried that if I met is
woman, she would see what real man is about and finally be able to toss out her
10 hp vibrator! LOL!
Robert Schuh
by me and in EVERY instance I have gone out of my way to make sure EVERYONE involved is informed. Let's look at the REAL
issue. Has there been a SINGLE complaint from any of my buyers? Do I have well over 600 completed Ebay auctions with only 1
negative that was not related to this at all? Who is complaining? ONLY the people who whine and lie about me all the time
anyway are. The REAL difference this time is that Harry has perpetrated a text book case of libel. Little George is right on
the border, but he is worth nothing, so he is ignored. Harry is going to hear from my attorney. I will keep everyone posted.
It is going to fucking HILARIOUS when Harry is going to have to post a public apology. I have received about 2 dozen e mails
now all quoting Harry's comments from his board. I don't know 99% of these people. This is just like Bill "I Got Fired From
the Ike Turner Gig" Ray, trying to get a good man fired from his job because he stated that I was a good customer.
Michel wrote:
Robert Schuh
real. He is a big fat, double digit IQ moron whose only pleasure in life is
eating, jerking off to photos of his naked mother and talking shit in RMMP. I
don't get why anyone responds to him. Ant, just ignore him. He is all talk, just
like everyone else claiming they "know" something about this. If there had been
a problem, don't you think a buyer would have come out by now?? They also have
ZERO answer to me Ebay feedback. Over 600 auctions with 1 negative from non
related issue. Is little George willing to stack his Ebay feedback up against
mine?
Anthony Giampa wrote:
Robert Schuh
intentions, he will close the thread. He really is a pathetic little fuck.
Robert Schuh
refurbishing and building that I do and people who have bought my drums appreciate them. That
is all that matters. I will keep you all informed as to what happens with Harry. He has
stepped way over the line and will have to pay the piper.
Robert Schuh
This will REALLY get the Dwarf drummer going, but I actually prefer the
sound of a Keller 8 ply shell for a bass drum than a factory Gretsch 6 ply.
I can't wait to see how this little fuck froths at the mouth over that.
Remember, Georgy is convinced that his opinion is THE only way. Both of my
kits I play, have 16x13 Keller shells. On my natural blonde kit, I had this
bass drum at first:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2531133830&category=38093&rd=1
and was not into the sound. I built a 16x13 Keller 8 ply repro and played
both of them for the bass player and piano player in my group. Both
preferred the Keller. This NOTHING to do with quality, it is purely
subjective, but then again, the Drumigdet knows more about drum sound that a
pianist and bass player. BTW, I bought the shell for this bass drum from Tom
Soder at Musical Closeouts. Why not e mail him and tell him he is selling
fake Gretsch shells? This is the same bass drum that Fell kept e mailing me
about telling me to stop making these drums.
Bill Ray
your forgery of prescriptions and drums? I see. It's an
ADDICTION.....there's a 12-step program for you I believe.
I have refrained from replying to your posts for some time now. Simply put,
you're not worth my time or energy. Find a new chew-toy.
Wherever you got your info regarding me getting "fired" from Ike's gig, they
are dead wrong. I'm on hiatus right now because of several reasons vis-a-vis
world turmoil, a steady cush summer gig, and the fact that I'd like to be
closer to my son and wife (I travel frequently enough, thankyouverymuch). It
was my decision to take the time off and nowhere have I broken ties with Ike
Turner.
I had a banner year in 2002 including playing Montreux Jazz Fest in
Switzerland, North Sea Jazz Festival, Pori, Finland, All over France, 3
trips to Europe, A great time in Canada, lots of fun in NYC and all over the
eastern US, Recording many TV appearances in France and Europe and playing a
week stint at Ronnie Scott's in London. Plus I'm on a legend's new Live
album.
Gotta say, a kid's a lot more fun than a macaw....<g>
BR
"Robert Schuh" <r...@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:3ED31CC5...@robschuh.com...
Sean Conolly
> Model #, Schuh Custom, and then the serial #. You don't know what I do nor
are
> you an attorney. What is VERY real is that Harry and anyone else who
claims I am
> making "fakes" or "counterfeits" are making libelous accusation with the
intent
> to harm my business. That is THE perfect case for a libel suit. You like
to
> whine a lot here, so next time, get your fucking facts straight.
OK, then you've clearly identified your drums, on the article itself, as not
being origianl which was my point.
As for your other drivel; fuck you, and I mean that in the nicest possible
way.
Sean
BlueM0ZARK
seller on ebay said:
< EVERYTHING he says about me is a
lie. He is obsessed with me every bit as much as Bill Ray, I got fired from the
Ike
Turner gig, Drumigdet and Lardo>
Ummm....not quite, robby. I have proof of what you do. Remember?
George Lawrence
I said was tha you bought something from someone and he complained that you
were very very slow to pay. Months. And then another person complained of
the same thing. I didn't say that you had been fired from any gigs. I said
that some musicians in Phoenix told me that you played horribly and that
they would never hire you again. This is all verifiable in google. Don't
exaggerate. That's the same as lying. As for NAMM, they are aware of your
abusive actions at music shows in the past and when I contacted them I was
told that you were already on their list of trouble makers to watch, that
they were aware of who was badging you, and that if you created any trouble
at the conventions that they would take appropriate action.
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800
"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"Robert Schuh" <r...@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:3ED310BD...@robschuh.com...
George Lawrence
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800
"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"Robert Schuh" <r...@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:3ED313A0...@robschuh.com...
Michael Fell
wrote:
>I play the VERY same kits that I sell, so I put my money where my mouth is.
>This will REALLY get the Dwarf drummer going, but I actually prefer the
>sound of a Keller 8 ply shell for a bass drum than a factory Gretsch 6 ply.
>I can't wait to see how this little fuck froths at the mouth over that.
>Remember, Georgy is convinced that his opinion is THE only way. Both of my
>kits I play, have 16x13 Keller shells. On my natural blonde kit, I had this
>bass drum at first:
>http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2531133830&category=38093&rd=1
>and was not into the sound. I built a 16x13 Keller 8 ply repro and played
>both of them for the bass player and piano player in my group. Both
>preferred the Keller. This NOTHING to do with quality, it is purely
>subjective, but then again, the Drumigdet knows more about drum sound that a
>pianist and bass player. BTW, I bought the shell for this bass drum from Tom
>Soder at Musical Closeouts. Why not e mail him and tell him he is selling
>fake Gretsch shells? This is the same bass drum that Fell kept e mailing me
>about telling me to stop making these drums.
Hey Rob,
When are you going to get it through that thick skull of yours it was
not me who emailed you? You should know by now if I email or post it
is with my real name. Not all of us are like you who hide behind fake
screen names and email addresses. Don't even mention my name in your
silly tirades again please.
Mike
George Lawrence
like you.
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800
"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"Robert Schuh" <r...@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:3ED31652...@robschuh.com...
Michael Fell
wrote:
>I should have never responded to the allegations of a few known liars. I enjoy the drum
>refurbishing and building that I do and people who have bought my drums appreciate them. That
>is all that matters. I will keep you all informed as to what happens with Harry. He has
>stepped way over the line and will have to pay the piper.
Well Rob you reap what you sow. How often have you stepped over the
line?
Mike
George Lawrence
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
1351 S. Cleveland-Massillon Road #21
Copley, Ohio 44321
http://www.GeorgesDrumShop.com
http://www.Drumguru.com
330 670 0800
toll free 866 970 0800
"If thine enemy wrong thee,
buy each of his children a drum."
-Chinese proverb
"Robert Schuh" <r...@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:3ED30E9E...@robschuh.com...
BlueM0ZARK
seller on ebay said:
This is really getting good now. Attorney? Ok, let's analyze just WHO has the
best case here...
Harry Cangany vs. lil' robby schuh - 4 time felon, drug addict, and federal
prison inmate. Oh yea...the judge is just gonna love this one!
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
BlueM0ZARK
seller on ebay said:
#1 - You don't have $1000.00.
#2 - I will use the information when I choose to. You probably won't even know
till they come to put the cuffs on you. Bottom Line - *you know* I have the
information. If you don't, I strongly urge you to jog your memory.
BlueM0ZARK
Let's just be thankful he hasn't poisoned the world with his offspring...
Joey
"Robert Schuh" <r...@robschuh.com> wrote in message
news:3ED30E9E...@robschuh.com...
Michael Fell
Harley Davidson cracked down on people selling custom bikes while
using Harley's name and various trademarks on EBAY several months ago.
I don't know if anybody was sued but it put an end to people trying to
sell their homemade choppers,bastard motorcycles,or what are reffered
to as customs as real Harley Davidsons. These guys would have Harley
frames with S&S motors or Harley motors with aftermarket frames along
with custom seats, wheels. They would still call them Harley's. They
would use their logo on the bike and their name in the auction as
well.
Mike
On Tue, 27 May 2003 22:08:05 -0500, "Joey" <joey...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Rob, what your buyers think has no bearing on the law or whether it's legal.
>The fact is - you can disclose to any degree you like to the FIRST buyer of
>the refurbished/replica kit, but you have no idea whether that buyer may be
>purchasing them with the intent to sell them as genuine.
>
>You might want to check out the Lanham Act, 15 USC 1125, which states in
>part:
>
> "Any person who, on or in connection with any goods or services, or any
>container for goods, uses in commerce any word, term, name, symbol, or
>device, or any combination thereof, or any false designation of origin,
>false or misleading description of fact, or false or misleading
>representation of fact, which--
> (a) is likely to cause confusion, or to cause mistake, or to deceive as
>to the affiliation, connection, or association of such person with another
>person, or as to the origin, sponsorship, or approval of his or her goods,
>services, or commercial activities by another person, or..."
>
>
> Whether or not the counterfeit item is labeled as 'fake' or not, it is
>still trademark infringement and it is illegal to sell, BUY, OR POSSESS the
>items. This means that both you AND your eBay buyers are COMMITTING A CRIME
>by purchasing items that are marked with a registered trademark which they
>are aware are not manufactured by that company. EBay is COMMITTING A CRIME
>if they have any awareness of what you are doing. You and the buyers of your
>drums are knowingly committing product counterfeiting and are punishable by
>fines, confiscation and prosecution resulting in possible prison time. The
>introduction of non-genuine Gretsch kick drums into the market *is* apt to
>cause consumer confusion as to whether or not *any* given Gretsch drum is
>genuine, therefore reducing the credibility of the corporation and in
>violation of trademark law. (and giving motive for prosecution).
>
>In 1996, President Clinton signed the Anti-Counterfeiting Consumer
>Protection Act (Public Law 104-153), which was drafted to make
>counterfeiting a more heavily penalized crime. Bad for you. This law makes
>clear that counterfeit goods are those that bear marks that are identical to
>or substantially indistinguishable from the registered trademark.
>
>Unfortunately, the problem you have presented for yourself is that you have
>made numerous statements of admission of committing these crimes as well as
>creating eBay archives of evidence of the specific instances of the crimes,
>and you have also made quite a few enemies here that just might want to
>pursue an avenue of vengeance (myself not included, I got over you years
>ago) in having these crimes prosecuted.
>
>So here it is, folks: Robert Schuh has admitted to committing at least 30
>acts of trademark infringement via eBay, which a more knowledgeable law
>person (ape?) of RMMP will have to tell me constitutes mail fraud as well.
>
>Have a nice day, and you might want to go ahead and contact that attorney
>after all.
>
>P.S. I'm no lawyer so anyone here that sees any discrepancies please butch
>up... :-)
>
>...Joey
>
>"Robert Schuh" <r...@robschuh.com> wrote in message
>news:3ED31552...@robschuh.com...
Richard Edmondson
> So here it is, folks: Robert Schuh has admitted to committing at least 30
> acts of trademark infringement via eBay, which a more knowledgeable law
> person (ape?) of RMMP will have to tell me constitutes mail fraud as well.
Nope, I think that would be Wire Fraud which I understand to be a Federal
offense.
I'm not a lawape either, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
ramalane
"Richard Edmondson" <rich...@skyNOSPAMbest.com> wrote in message
news:bb1g9n$brnb$1...@news3.infoave.net...
: >
: > So here it is, folks: Robert Schuh has admitted to committing at least
So why not address your concerns to Ebay? Certainly they would like an
opportunity to protect their stellar reputation.
LMAO!
/ramalane
--
Church of the Swimming Elephant
http://www.cotse.com
Have you been to church today?
Ronn Dunnett
Ronn Dunnett
Gretch=the sound a cat makes when it huffs up a hairball in Tom's bed.
Ebay does not want the
> trouble or lawsuit. That will be end of Wobbie and his fake drum sales. You
> can't call ebay and complain to safe harbor. They will not answer the phone
> period. I know from expirence. ;o)
eeeyeah...have you ever been expirenced?
From a guy who probably purchased a fake grade school diploma.
What a sharp crayon you have Mr. T.
Michael Fell
>Go eat a Supra, sniveller.
Hey dunnett,
Take a long walk off a short pier. Oh and LEARN how to spell Sniveler.
Do they teach you Canucks how to spell or do you just drink beer up
there and act stupid? LOL!
Mike
Bill Ray
some judge....somewhere......
BR
"ramalane" <rama...@ramalaneTINR.com> wrote in message
news:ZKXAa.20294$iD2....@fe08.atl2.webusenet.com...
Joey
"Ronn Dunnett" <ro...@dunnett.com> wrote in message
news:b16abf84.03052...@posting.google.com...
Wendell
testify against you. Will you be having a blowout fake Gretsch sale
before you go back to prison?
Robert Schuh <r...@robschuh.com> wrote in message news:<3ED05D36...@robschuh.com>...
> I just received 2 e mails from people stating that old Harry has
> publicly stated I have been making fake Gretsch drums. He is going to
> get fucked ROYALLY for this. He is such a sad little man that he can not
> use any facts to talk about me, so he has to out right lie. He will
> first receive a cease and desist letter from my attorney. If he makes
> ANY comment like that afterwards, I am going to own his shitty business.
> This is something for the Drumigdet to think about too. Little George
> has not come out with that out right lie yet, but he has straddled the
> line. The problem with Little George is that he is worth nothing and you
> can't sue his wife for his mental deficiencies.
>