Tempo: the artist vs. the band
Dan Radin
question that I'm sure the pros can chime in on. The tune was a slower
ballad, and I noticed any time the singers or lead guitarist had to
sing/play anything 16th note-based, they'd rush it. This seemed to create
tension between the rhythm section and the lead voices (vocal/guitar).
Obviously, in a situation like this, the artist is the boss, so you have to
make them look good, and you can't just plow through, doing your best
metronome impression. The question is: do you try to follow them
unequivocably, and hope the rest of the rhythm section can keep up, or do
you try to find some middle ground (which might make the artist less than
happy with you, but keep the band happier)?
Comments?
--
Dan Radin
dra...@rcn.com
Sean Conolly
news:aal7h3$6hh$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
As a non-pro who's had to deal with this, I think it depends on the artist.
Some won't be happy unless you drive through, as in "do what I say, not as I
do", and they may not even be aware of what they're doing. Others are
perfectly aware and it could be a cue that they really want a different
tempo. Still others just flow with the feel, some sections they want to push
and others they want to lay back. It's like walking a tightrope, the path is
straight but you can wobble a bit getting there. In the case you describe it
sounds like they were pushing certain figures without really trying to
change the tempo of the song.
Other than that, I find that the more experienced the artist is the clearer
their intentions are. The only thing you can count on is that if they're not
happy, it IS your fault. Goes with the turf.
Sean
-MIKE-
mind, also, that on most gig of that caliber, there will also be a
music/band director/leader]
As drummers, we would like to be able to say, "Hey, you can't have
it both ways. You want me tight as a click, yet you are rushing the
chorus. I'm staying tight-- you better get with it." Of course,
that would likely be the last thing you say on that gig. :-)
I'm dealing with almost the exact situation you described, on my
current gig. Fortunately, I'm dealing with an artist/boss who sees
the song as first priority. On this one particular song, he told me
he wants me to keep the tempo down, even if he and the guitar player
rush, because the vocals get too difficult to sing past a certain
tempo. So I just have to concentrate on that one section, and hope
the guitar player didn't have coffee before the show. :-)
-MIKE-
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrums.com or hit 'reply'
George Lawrence
know him fairly well. He used to play with my old boss T. Graham Brown and
Reba Ican'tact. I guarantee you that if even the artists rushed he gave them
some shit about it. He is not afraid to call a spade a spade. My favorite
Scott Hawkins quote , "You sing the words, you play the notes and I'll play
the drums!"
I've gotten fired several times for not following singers when they rushed
or want the tempo to speed up match their adrenalin level. Screw 'em. I'm
not gonna play badly to save a gig with somebody that can't do their own job
right. The answer is to choose to play only with good singers.
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
Akron, Ohio
http://www.drumguru.com
http://GeorgesDrumShop.com
"If thy neighbor offends thee, buy his children a drum" (Chinese proverb)
"Dan Radin" <dra...@rcn.com> wrote in message
news:aal7h3$6hh$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
David Crigger
challenge number one is figuring out what is needed/desired.
But I would say your middle ground suggestion make the most sense as a
starting place - meaning lay down your best time, but be sensitive and
flexible enough to what is going on in the ensemble, so that things don't
pull too far apart. And then see what kind of reaction you get.
David
in article aal7h3$6hh$1...@bob.news.rcn.net, Dan Radin at dra...@rcn.com wrote
on 4/29/02 9:45 PM:
David Crigger
to handle anything. Quitting a gig that demands a manner of playing that I
don't want to deliver, fine. But getting fired? Not for me, not if I can
help it.
David
in article _wqz8.9948$d7.33...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com, George Lawrence
at drum...@ameritech.net wrote on 4/29/02 11:07 PM:
Pat McDonald
<d...@davidcrigger.com> wrote:
I agree with David. I didn't see the B & D performance but if they
used their band, Scotty Hawkins was playing. He's a good friend and
plays like he looks--big, round and FAT. The man lays it down like no
one else around here. I'll ask him when I see him again.
In my case, it can sometimes be infuriating because of the way
everyone's concept of time in the CDB differs. Charlie Hayward, the
bass player, tends to sit way back on everything. Charlie Daniels
pushes the shit out of everything he plays OR sings. He's WAY on top
most all of the time. The other guys all fall in the hole somewhere.
Makes for an interesting task for me. If I hang with Charlie
Hayward, it feels much better but I can feel Charlie Daniels giving me
the "Come on ! Get up here!" vibe. If I play way up with Charlie,
then it feels edgy and hurried but "energetic" as he likes to say. I
don't like that. So I try to find a hole in between them and sit on it
as best I can.
This is the kind of conceptual topic that can go either way. Some
artists will sit down and talk to you about it. Others won't and then
will fire you if you pick the wrong side of the fence. It's a tough
call but I'd say your best bet would be to sit down with the bosses
and run it by them. If they know what you're talking about, then
you'll get an answer. If they don't, listen for hints about the way
they like it and adjust.
In a nutshell, I recommend making the person signing your check happy
first. Worry about the rest of them later....; )
Pat
Pat McDonald
I agree with David. I didn't see the B & D performance but if they
jmt
I played for 3 yrs with a s i n g e r who consistently tried to set
the tempo with his voice. It drove the entire band crazy.(and it was a
short drive). He did have a great voice, and oddly enough, excellent
taste in music.(for a singer). We put up with it most of the time. He
stood directly in front of me on a fairly shallow stage at our house
gig, and when he began to get vocally strange, I would go to an 18"
Zild.Med.Crash which I strategically located about a foot from his left
ear. He had nowhere to go, unless he left the stage. Even when we went
into a recording studio and the engineer told him about his "problem",
he couldn't stop trying to lead with his voice.
Did I mention we got paid really well?
Whores are us;
jmt
--
"The world is a bad joke, in very poor taste, created by the
Almighty on a very bad day; I'm inclined to believe he had a hangover
that morning..."
Stuart McConaghy
dra...@rcn.com posted for all the world to see:
Depends on the project, I'd say. Since I work a lot with sequencers and
live-triggered loops everybody has to be perfectly in time, and has to
suffer along with the click just like I do, but in a different setting I
think the band format and the songs would dictate the behavior. If the
artist is ruining a song which needs to stay in one tempo by being
"flexible", then he/she needs to be gently yet firmly nudged back into the
groove by having the rest of the band first follow the culprit, and then try
to bring them back into the original tempo. All the time trying to conceal
it from the audience and trying not to let the artist notice (9 out of 10
times the artists I've worked with didn't), of course ;-)
Stuart McConaghy - Proud endorser of Canopus Drums
Drop my pants to e-mail me
http://www.javamusic.com/severance
"Je suis Marxiste, tendance Groucho."
George Lawrence
:-) and it is not indicative of anything negative about one's playing or
ability to handle the business/diplomacy aspect of a gig. I'm sure that
almost every Nashville drummer that posts here has a "firing" story. Hell,
Wynona Judd fired John Molo. Figure that one out. 9 times out of ten, it's
purely political or has something to do with the insecurity of the artist.
I'd say that most players are let go or fired rather than quit. Most good
players have a new gig within days.
I was music director in both of the situations I mentioned. In Nashville
there are a lot of fledgling artists. They usually have great voices but
many of them don't have much touring and concert experience because they
come from a singer/songwriter or club singer background. They usually to
try to use night club tactics in a major arena; tempos that are too fast,
bad pacing of song order, no time between songs because they are nervous
about talking to crowds, etc. A lot of them don't realize that raising
tempos doesn't create more excitement in arenas, it just makes the songs
muddier and makes it harder to understand the lyrics. Only James Brown can
get away with it. A lot of them that I played with were paired with veteran
touring musicians by their managers to teach them the ropes, relax them and
to make sure that they put together and delivered a good show. Some of them
don't listen to their managers and bandleaders and their shows suffer thus
their bookings wane. The fledgling artist I was fired by had a lot more
problems on stage and musically than just tempo, but it was a foundational
issue with me because I wasn't going to sacrifice groove and feel for
"excitement" in front of other players who were my connections for future
gigs. That is truly "selling out", to suck up to a boss, to play poorly to
keep a gig.
The veteran artist who fired me was smoking a lot of pot and claiming that I
was too slow one night and too fast the next even though I was on a click
that had the song tempos every show, which is a shame because he is one of
my all time favorite singers. In both situations, most of the other band
members left with me for the same reason; not letting the musicians and
music director do their jobs. The new artist lost the record deal and has no
bookings in this fifth career year. I had been in both jobs for over two
years. I've always prided myself on playing with good singers (for the most
part), but "good singer" does not always equal "good boss". Sometimes it is
better for your career to get fired than to quit.
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
Akron, Ohio
http://www.drumguru.com
http://GeorgesDrumShop.com
"If thy neighbor offends thee, buy his children a drum" (Chinese proverb)
"David Crigger" <d...@davidcrigger.com> wrote in message
news:B8F3B00C.1E3F2%d...@davidcrigger.com...
Kurgan666
Did Charlie hire all the musicians in CDB? If so, why didn't he choose
ones suited more to his style (ie; players that play on top or
"energetically")? It seems like this would solve a lot of conflict.
Just askin'
Chris
Pat McDonald <patd...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:<300420020914597576%patd...@bellsouth.net>...
Sean Conolly
news:Oiyz8.10023$d7.33...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
Interesting... sounds like the "artists" come and go but the pool of
connected players stays the same. In that situation it's not who signs the
check but who does the hiring that you want to have a good rep with, right?
Just taking notes, eventually I'll go back to playing full time.
Sean
David Crigger
Interesting, out of all that you never even hint about players being let go
for any legitimate reasons, or even that it is a possibility (except the 1
out of 10, I guess). But the unique, little world that is Nashville as you
describe it aside, I hold myself at least partially responsible for every
one of my firing stories. As in each case, there was, in hindsight, some
better way I could've handled the situation, but didn't. And I see no point
in rationalizing those situations differently. Certainly, one can find
themselves between a rock and a hard place in situations, but how often does
that really happen? And to such a degree, that one still couldn't bow out
gracefully, before allowing the situation to degenerate to the point of
dismissal.
David
in article Oiyz8.10023$d7.33...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com, George
Lawrence at drum...@ameritech.net wrote on 4/30/02 7:58 AM:
Mark Rance
George Lawrence
referring and choosing, while the artists tend to do more of the firing.
And, yes I think Nashville is unique in that many of the business owners
(the artists) are not very experienced at running a business and many
musicians get fired for not kissing ass or other artist ego related
situations. You have to remember that there are more artists that tour for
only one to five years as openers than there are headliners out of Nashville
and the average musician's stay with those artists is less than two years.
Usually work just ends; gigs aren't booked and there is no need to fire any
one. Of course musicians are fired for legitimate reasons, usually more for
personal reasons than musical ones I'd say. I don't think I was fired for
legitimate reasons in those particular situations but we're not talking
nudging tempos here, but drastic measures. I was doing what I was hired to
do. I refuse to be treated as less than an equal musically, and if an artist
fires me over some matter in which everbody else concerned thinks I'm right,
then I think it's their loss and not mine. For an artist to pull the "boss"
trump card over a musical question is bullshit and I wouldn't want to work
with someone with that shallow a personality anyway. I kept getting hired as
a bandleader by the same managers so I figure people liked the way I handle
these kinds of situations. They all know I am blunt and try to be sincere in
my opinions and will never bullshit them. There was no animosity in either
situation. The fledgling artist in question hired me back to sub 5 shows for
the replacement drummer last year. The veteran artist asked me to sub also
but I refused because he still owes me money for a recording session that he
feels he doesn't have to pay, which is a whole other story.
Also, if you need it, you can't file for unemployment pay if you quit :-)
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
Akron, Ohio
http://www.drumguru.com
http://GeorgesDrumShop.com
"If thy neighbor offends thee, buy his children a drum" (Chinese proverb)
"David Crigger" <d...@davidcrigger.com> wrote in message
news:B8F43839.1E4A4%d...@davidcrigger.com...
-MIKE-
any situation, you will know two things, beyond the shadow of a
doubt:
A. He is a phenomenal player at any style.
II. He is as easy going as an old barn cat on Valium.
I could see anyone but George getting fired for either ability or
attitude.
-MIKE-
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrums.com or hit 'reply'
> Sean nailed it. The managers and the other musicians do most of the
-MIKE-
and the keyboard player, Taz, have been with Charlie since before
any of them had any gray hair of beer bellies. :-)
-MIKE-
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrums.com or hit 'reply'
Pat McDonald
<chris...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hey Pat,
>
> Did Charlie hire all the musicians in CDB? If so, why didn't he choose
> ones suited more to his style (ie; players that play on top or
> "energetically")? It seems like this would solve a lot of conflict.
>
> Just askin'
>
> Chris
>
>
>
Yeah, he hired everybody who has ever worked in the band.
You must remember that not all musicians are as focused on these
concepts as we as drummers are. Charlie doesn't know much or even
care about things like this. He just wants a guy who can play well
and give him a "vibe". Someone who he can count on. He doesn't
consider things like this to the degree that we do.
We tend to try to make rocket science out of beating on shit with
sticks.
Pat
Soulbelly
>sticks.
that's mine.
peace,
nick
http://www.cdbaby.com/soulbelly
http://www.trueline.com/endorse/amoroso.html
"...herds of wild felt hogs roaming the countryside" - muffinhead
-----
"usenet is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive,
difficult to redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining and a source of
mind-boggling amounts of excrement when you least expect it." ~ spaf (1992)
jmt
You mentioned, "We tend to try to make rocket science out of
beating on shit with
sticks."
jmt
--
George Lawrence
--
George Lawrence
George's Drum Shop
Akron, Ohio
http://www.drumguru.com
http://GeorgesDrumShop.com
"If thy neighbor offends thee, buy his children a drum" (Chinese proverb)
"-MIKE-" <mi...@mikedrums.com> wrote in message
news:aan0vh$c21sk$1...@ID-128158.news.dfncis.de...
-MIKE-
>
> --
> George Lawrence
I'll settle for a Taye endorsement. :-)
B. Jacoby
David Crigger wrote:
> I disagree that getting fired from any situation is indicative of a good way
> to handle anything. Quitting a gig that demands a manner of playing that I
> don't want to deliver, fine. But getting fired? Not for me, not if I can
> help it.
>
> David
Of course the difference between getting fired and quitting is just one
ofviewpoint, isn't it? I mean when there are 'artistic differences' and they
can't be worked out, then if the "artist" stands firm you are fired, if
you stand firm, you quit. Not much of difference there unless you are
into the ego thing (like many artists are).
But I do agree that everyone should try to work out solutions
before receeding into immovable political positions.
> in article _wqz8.9948$d7.33...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com, George Lawrence
> at drum...@ameritech.net wrote on 4/29/02 11:07 PM:
>
> > Dan, was the drummer Scotty Hawkins? Big guy? He's a great drummer and I
> > know him fairly well. He used to play with my old boss T. Graham Brown and
> > Reba Ican'tact. I guarantee you that if even the artists rushed he gave them
> > some shit about it. He is not afraid to call a spade a spade. My favorite
> > Scott Hawkins quote , "You sing the words, you play the notes and I'll play
> > the drums!"
> >
> > I've gotten fired several times for not following singers when they rushed
> > or want the tempo to speed up match their adrenalin level. Screw 'em. I'm
> > not gonna play badly to save a gig with somebody that can't do their own job
> > right. The answer is to choose to play only with good singers.
Heh, George wins the arguement! And I have to pretty much agree with that.I mean
on a given gig, I might tend to go along with the singer with problems
doing it his/her way just to get through (Screwing up a gig or walking off
is a big no-no), but after the gig it HAS to be worked out or it's quit time.
Like George I'm not willing to play half-assed just to get peace in the family.
Hey, I've got a rep and ego too! If I'm following some half-baked singer
all over the tempo block, then people who hear that will start saying that
the DRUMMER can't hold a tempo! Not good.
> > "Dan Radin" <dra...@rcn.com> wrote in message
> > news:aal7h3$6hh$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> >> Just caught the Brooks and Dunn performance on Leno, and it prompted a
> >> question that I'm sure the pros can chime in on. The tune was a slower
> >> ballad, and I noticed any time the singers or lead guitarist had to
> >> sing/play anything 16th note-based, they'd rush it. This seemed to create
> >> tension between the rhythm section and the lead voices (vocal/guitar).
> >> Obviously, in a situation like this, the artist is the boss, so you have
> > to
> >> make them look good, and you can't just plow through, doing your best
> >> metronome impression. The question is: do you try to follow them
> >> unequivocably, and hope the rest of the rhythm section can keep up, or do
> >> you try to find some middle ground (which might make the artist less than
> >> happy with you, but keep the band happier)?
My comment on this is that while the artist is the boss, there are ways that
things have to be played. Slow ballads afford lots of leeway for expression,
but generally speaking there cannot be tempo shifts in the rhythm section
unless it is a huge retardando at the end etc. [but even a retardando, if it is
in the middle of the song SHOULD come right back and lock onto the original
click... This is always the rule for ballads people will be slow-dancing to.]
But that said, let me note that the while the band is locked to a tempo
the artist will be "styling" like mad. And that means they may be rushing way
ahead or falling way behind OVER the locked-in band. That is OK.
That is the way it should be. They regard that as creative expression.
And it is!
But the groove should NEVER follow that "expression". If the "artist" demands
they do, then that is when "artistic differences" develop. Note I'm not talking
about the subtle thing Pat was, which is playing behind, on top of , or ahead of
the beat. (By the way, in a slow ballad it's usually most effective to play
way behind the beat) I'm talking about honest to Gid tempo changes.
A properly sung ballad (IMHO) should be able to have a click track
started at the beginning and no matter where the artist goes, it should still
be locked there by the time it ends. Trying to "follow" the artist to "save"
the song is high school stuff. If the artist wants a tempo change someplace
then it has to be sudden, dramatic and noticable. That works. But otherwise,
it's like I said.
And let me add that you really only get to appreciate the sense of what
I'm saying when you get out front and try slow-dancing to one of these
clowns who has the rhythm section trying to follow him/her! Simply
does not work. And as far as I can tell, doesn't much work in a concert
either.
Benj
David Crigger
wrote on 4/30/02 9:27 PM:
>
>
> David Crigger wrote:
>
>> I disagree that getting fired from any situation is indicative of a good way
>> to handle anything. Quitting a gig that demands a manner of playing that I
>> don't want to deliver, fine. But getting fired? Not for me, not if I can
>> help it.
>>
>> David
>
> Of course the difference between getting fired and quitting is just one
> ofviewpoint, isn't it?
Not necessarily. In a band of equals situation, I agree. But as a sideman
working for an artist?
> I mean when there are 'artistic differences' and they
> can't be worked out, then if the "artist" stands firm you are fired, if
> you stand firm, you quit.
When working as a sideman, I think the goal is for there to be no "artistic
differences" or at least none that are apparent to the artist/client. In
general, from making clients happy comes job security, leaving the player in
control of turning down or quitting the jobs that don't fit with their
current career status.
When I take a job as a sideman, I consider my job is to assist the
client/artist to accomplish _their_ goals - as they define them. And again,
if what they need or want doesn't feel comfortable or sit well with me, I
always have the option of quitting or turning down their future work. But to
me, the job is never to butt heads with a client trying to convince them
that I know what is wrong with their scene and how to best fix it, and
certainly not to the point that they get so aggravated as to _fire me_. No
way, at least not for me.
> Not much of difference there unless you are
> into the ego thing (like many artists are).
Personally, I've just as many ego problems with players as with artists,
they just show up in different ways. But the above "I know what's wrong with
this gig" attitude is one of the most common.
>
> But I do agree that everyone should try to work out solutions
> before receeding into immovable political positions.
For sure.
David
Dan Radin
"George Lawrence" <drum...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:_wqz8.9948$d7.33...@newssrv26.news.prodigy.com...
B. Jacoby
David Crigger wrote:
> Not necessarily. In a band of equals situation, I agree. But as a sideman
> working for an artist?
>
> When working as a sideman, I think the goal is for there to be no "artistic
> differences" or at least none that are apparent to the artist/client. In
> general, from making clients happy comes job security, leaving the player in
> control of turning down or quitting the jobs that don't fit with their
> current career status.
I know what you are saying here. And for sure in business pleasing the
customer is good. But to achieve "no artistic differences" is something
of a trick given the amazing amount of incompetence and brain farts one
can encounter in the real world.
> When I take a job as a sideman, I consider my job is to assist the
> client/artist to accomplish _their_ goals - as they define them. And again,
> if what they need or want doesn't feel comfortable or sit well with me, I
> always have the option of quitting or turning down their future work. But to
> me, the job is never to butt heads with a client trying to convince them
> that I know what is wrong with their scene and how to best fix it, and
> certainly not to the point that they get so aggravated as to _fire me_. No
> way, at least not for me.
I agree that as a sideman you are not there to impress your will upon the
musical scene. You are indeed there to assist the client/artist acomplish
their goals as THEY define them. However... a sideman is an artist
as well. Ever have the "boss" tell you how "easy" playing drums is and
then give you a bunch of REALLY half-assed instructions as to how
you are to do it? Ever actually try to comply and then YOU get chewed out
because it isn't working? Well Duh! I'm saying that you, even as a
"sideman" HAVE to have some integrity. In my experience, standing your
artistic ground tends to be best. If you are right often as not, the "artist"
will sense it as well and go along and the end result is typically MUCH
better as a result. It's very hard I've found for even the most hardheaded
and clueless artists to argue with success.
But that said, I have to also relate the well-known situation in the old
James Brown band. James always considered the band as "sidemen"
even though typically most of his hits were developed by his muscians
and he just added his "style" and the words. Naturally his attitude did not
sit well with the "sidemen" who as most of you know, at one point quit
en-mass.
But the inteteresting thing that relates to this discussion is that Jabo
had YOUR "sideman" attitude. But he also had integrity. He told me,
he just told James flat out he wasn't going to stand for his "fines"
and other nonesense. He told James that if he wanted him to play
differently, then he should tell him so, but he wasn't there to play
this "fines" games. The result was that Jabo never paid any of
James' " fines. Also when the rest of the band all left, Jabo
stayed on saying that he gave his word to James to be the
"sideman" and wasn't going to break it. The point being that
by Jabo taking a proper "sideman" attitude and also having
the integrity to force James to stick to it also, when "artistic
differences" were tearing the rest of the band apart, Jabo
was having quite a different relationship with "the artist".
So yeah, unless you are Buddy with your own band, the
drummer isn't there to tell everyone else how to do things,
but then also when it comes to percussion, you are probably
much more qualified than anyone else there to make
a judgement as to what works and what doesn't.
I guess the bottom line is that there is this range of
attitudes one can take and you represent one pole
and George the other, with a whole range in between.
But I think there is some sense to both sides.
Benj
David Crigger
wrote on 5/1/02 11:51 PM:
Benj -
I don't think we are really disagreeing that much here. As I'm not and
haven't suggested anyone be a lapdog just to keep a gig (unless, of course,
one was really in dire straits - then you do what you must to feed your
family, "artistic pride be damned), but instead for the sideman to maintain
control over the situation as much as possible so he/she can choose when or
if to depart. By digging my heels in so firmly on a musical issue that I
irritate a leader to the point that I get fired, I'm sacrificing my control
over the situation in exchange for an attempt at "absolutely having my own
(musical) way" - something again, that I've found rarely worth pursuing, not
as a sideman.
Does this mean I don't fight musical battles as a sideman? Of course not. I
do it all the time - by suggesting, nudging, cajoling, picking and choosing
my battles, I can often transform a job into a much more suitable situation.
But draw a line in the sand, play the ultimatum card - over a musical issue?
Again not if I can help it. By throwing away subtlety, you hand the control
to the other person - who then decides "all or nothing" what happens next.
For myself, that is a heavy-handed tactic that I've had to use a few times,
but only over business agreements. Much like your Jabo anecdote, which if I
read it right, really had nothing to do with "artistic differences" but was
more about the business agreement. Wasn't he saying "James, you tell me how
you want it played and I'll do my best to play it, but don't think you can
fine me for every occasionally perceived imperfection as that is not how
professional sidemen are treated"? This was about business policy, not an
artistic policy. And yes, business often requires a firm resolve. So where I
can be very accommodating to the client's musical needs, I'm not nearly as
flexible at all, when it comes to whether or not I should get paid.
David
Mell Csicsila
<patd...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> We tend to try to make rocket science out of beating on shit with
> sticks.
Can I get an "AMEN"!?
--
Mell D. Csicsila
email: mcsicsil (AT) kent (DOT) edu
web: http://home.sprintmail.com/~mdcsicsila
David Crigger
Csicsila at mcsi...@kent.edu wrote on 5/2/02 10:18 PM:
> In article <300420021649106978%patd...@bellsouth.net>, Pat McDonald
> <patd...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>
>> We tend to try to make rocket science out of beating on shit with
>> sticks.
>
> Can I get an "AMEN"!?
I don't know when they'll get to the "AMEN", but I think there's prayer
meeting starting up in "Rod Schuch - Times Up Buddy!!!", if that helps. ;)