Quick-aging cymbals
Steve Vallee
or less 'ringy'? This can't be a reliable method, since the results would
depend on the composition of the soil. There must be a better way to do
this. What about using naval jelly or some other acid? Wouldn't this etch
the surface, making it rougher and give it more character?
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Email: val...@ihpc.REMOVE.THIS.net
bja...@iwaynet.net
> I've heard that burying cymbals changes their sound -- makes them less dry
> or less 'ringy'? This can't be a reliable method, since the results would
> depend on the composition of the soil. There must be a better way to do
> this. What about using naval jelly or some other acid? Wouldn't this etch
> the surface, making it rougher and give it more character?
Anything that builds up crud on a vibrating object tends to kill
the higher harmonics and make the sound more "dull". This is
why bass players boil strings (or use solvents..which is better)
to get that "new" sound back to old strings by removing the
crud build-up.
For cymbals there is this jazz thing that really cruddy looking
cymbals sound "great". While there may be some loss of the
new bright "edge" from crud build-up I doubt that it is crud
alone that makes them sound cool. One can of course build
up crud by burying them in the ground. What you get is oxides
and carbonates and the rest forming from chemical action on the
metal.
It's common for sculptors to bury bronze statues to get that
old look on them. It's called patina and forms naturally just
by years of exposure to weather etc. But even burying takes
a while so sculptors have various chemical baths they use
to get that build up quicker. Let me note that such chemicals
are the EXACT OPPOSITE of Naval Jelly. Naval Jelly is
designed to take those oxides etc. OFF! You want chemicals
that put them on! Go talk to sculptor about what they use.
But I doubt that patina is the whole or even the major part
of the cymbal tone story. The tone of a cymbal changes
dramatically just by continous playing! This point was
driven home to me by Jack DeJohnette at a clinic where
he was talking about his signature line of cymbals.
The drumset at the clinic had a brand new one on it.
And it sounded bright and new. But then Jack started
talking about how playing changes the tone and "ages"
the cymbal. And to prove the point he dug out his
personal cymbal bag and pulled out the identical
model cymbal that he had been playing for years.
The difference was dramatic! But he swore that this
aged cymbal sounded exactly like the new one there
when he first started playing it.
So from that I conclude that you could chemically
"age" a cymbal to make it look cooler, but fact is
to really make it sound cool, you'll have to beat
crap out of it for years! :)
Benj
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Sean Conolly
news:3fa20...@news1.prserv.net...
> I've heard that burying cymbals changes their sound -- makes them less dry
> or less 'ringy'? This can't be a reliable method, since the results would
> depend on the composition of the soil. There must be a better way to do
> this. What about using naval jelly or some other acid? Wouldn't this
etch
> the surface, making it rougher and give it more character?
It seems to me that the best way to change the character of a cymbal is with
a ball peen hammer. The best cymbals are hand hammered, and more importantly
the guy doing the hammering is listening to the cymbal as he goes. I've
never tried it myself, but I probably will some day just to find out.
Sean
Steve Vallee
> It seems to me that the best way to change the character of a cymbal is
with
> a ball peen hammer. The best cymbals are hand hammered, and more
importantly
> the guy doing the hammering is listening to the cymbal as he goes. I've
> never tried it myself, but I probably will some day just to find out.
>
> Sean
>
I don't think you can do this with metal that has already been tempered. I
believe it will just crack.
Steve Vallee
<bja...@iwaynet.net> wrote in message news:bnt3r0$hug$1...@tribune.oar.net...
The oxidation will make the surface less smooth, so why wouldn't using some
type of acid to etch into the metal have the same effect?
As far as making it look cool, I tested a dime-sized area under the bell
with Tarn-X. After about 5 min it turned dark gray. I washed/dried it and
it looks like an old, dull gray. I'm tempted to do the whole thing in
Tarn-X. What the heck, I paid less than $50 for the cymbal and it can
polish out if I don't like it.
-sv
Bart Robinson
I saw this cool thing off cymbalholic.com recently where a guy takes a
ride and "customizes" it by hammering, lathing, etc.
http://www.mudpiemedia.com/cymbals/skiba2002.cfm
http://www.mudpiemedia.com/cymbals/skiba2003.cfm
-- bart
Thomas Lindvall
> or less 'ringy'? This can't be a reliable method, since the results would
> depend on the composition of the soil. There must be a better way to do
> this. What about using naval jelly or some other acid? Wouldn't this
etch
> the surface, making it rougher and give it more character?
At a drum clinic here in Finland a while ago, the drummer told that he
always puts his new cymbals in a bath of hydrochloric acid. He claimed this
to reduce the surface tension of the cymbal, allowing it to vibrate more
freely and not crack as easily. He is also some kind of tin smith (or was,
before he become a pro drummer) and said that he's working on making his own
hihats.
Thomas
Sam Savoca
You have to anneal (I think that's the word) it again before any additional
hammering. I did this long ago while hammering several copper bowls in shop
class. You flame heat it and then drop it while super hot into an acid
solution, remove it immediately, and start hammering. If you don't hammer
most of the surface though it will be too soft. The hammering gives it back
it's strength by re-aligning it's molecular structure.
Sam S.
Sonn
who would sound much better if they buried their drum kits.
:)
John P.
> It's common for sculptors to bury bronze statues to get that
> old look on them. It's called patina and forms naturally just
> by years of exposure to weather etc. But even burying takes
> a while so sculptors have various chemical baths they use
> to get that build up quicker.
If you just want the look, you can buy chemical patinas at any store that
sells stained glass supplies.
Jody
your finger prints, or dirt buildup or anything and let the playing
and the second-hand smoke in the club your at do it's job. It all goes
back to playing as much as you can. The more you play the better the
cymbal will sound because you are playing better from all the playing.
Jody
bja...@iwaynet.net
> The oxidation will make the surface less smooth, so why wouldn't using some
> type of acid to etch into the metal have the same effect?
> As far as making it look cool, I tested a dime-sized area under the bell
> with Tarn-X. After about 5 min it turned dark gray. I washed/dried it and
> it looks like an old, dull gray. I'm tempted to do the whole thing in
> Tarn-X. What the heck, I paid less than $50 for the cymbal and it can
> polish out if I don't like it.
Cymbal experiments are cool. A while back a drummer that worked
at a local drum shop was going on and on to me about how the
dude that comes up with a way to fix cracked cymbals would
be richer than Bill Gates. He was a rock player and had a closet
full of cracked cymbals and gave me a couple the experiment on.
I tried silver soldering the cracks and that did fix them!
Only the heat REALLY changed the tone of the cymbal!!!
So then just as lark I took a Bernz0matic torch and heated
the cymbal in spots (it turned dark in the heated areas
and looked just like a Giraffe!!! COOL!). Of course that
REALLY made the thing sound different. Very Broad and trashy
Zyn-like tone. I used it for quite a while but found that
it really only worked musically if you combined it
with another normal cymbal. That way the two tones sort of
mixed to give a broad trashy yet still traditional sounding
tone. Alone it was just plain bad.
So heating and tempering has MUCH to do with cymbal tone.
Eventually, after using the repaired cymbal for months
I decided to destructively test it. Got some 2Bs and actually
tried to crack it again! I wonder how some cats regularly
crack cymbals because this thing REALLY too some force to
crack. The good news was that it cracked in places other than
the repaired crack!!! The repair job held! Now if I could
just figure out how to solder those cracks without any heat,
you could just call me Mr. Gates! :-)
Dan Radin
> Steve Vallee <val...@ihpc.remove.this.net> wrote:
> Cymbal experiments are cool.
I don't know if I should post to whom I'm referring, but a teacher of mine
has several Constantinople prototypes on which he's been experimenting with
chalkdust and cigarette butts among other things to "dirty" them up. I think
I definitely prefer the sound of cymbals that are "played" in over clean,
new cymbals. Maybe this explains my recent 60s Zildjian fetish.
I remember being heartbroken when I cleaned my first pro ride cymbal, a 21"
Sabian AAX Stage, and it never sounded the same. It was only five or six
years dirty before I cleaned it, so you can imagine how 20 or 30 years of
grime can affect a pie. I remember seeing an old K go for $600 or so
recently on eBay that the seller had cleaned! I guess that's cool if you're
a collector...
Me? I'm not cleaning anything unless MTV tells me I can't play behind
Britney Spears unless I shine up my crashes. :-)
nick amoroso
>If you just want the look, you can buy chemical patinas at any store that
>sells stained glass supplies.
that's what i used on this copper snare drum:
http://www.nickamoroso.com/other/images/snares/abe.jpg
it would have turned green had i not washed the stuff off. i'm planning on
taking it as far as the stuff will go next time. it cleans off very easily
with chrome polish.
peace,
:nick amoroso:
professional drums and instruction
proud endorser of silver fox drumsticks
http://www.nickamoroso.com
-----
"i might not be that perfect son, but y'all be rockin when i'm done" ~ jack
black
John P.
> >If you just want the look, you can buy chemical patinas at any store that
> >sells stained glass supplies.
> that's what i used on this copper snare drum:
> http://www.nickamoroso.com/other/images/snares/abe.jpg
> it would have turned green had i not washed the stuff off. i'm planning
on
> taking it as far as the stuff will go next time. it cleans off very
easily
> with chrome polish.
Yeah... it has to go on and come back off. The longer you leave it on, the
greater effect it has. It also comes in different colors. Some of the
restoration artists even make their own formulas in order to duplicate a
particular artists work. So if you were looking for something in particular
and it wasn't in a bottle, you might talk to a stained glass restorer and
ask him for a formula to give you a particular effect.
nick amoroso
>that's what i used on this copper snare drum:
>
>http://www.nickamoroso.com/other/images/snares/abe.jpg
sorry - larger photo here:
http://www.nickamoroso.com/other/images/snares/abeBig.jpg
Steve Vallee
rivets. It looks and sounds fantastic! (to me, at least). It's a med/dark
gray, kind of uneven steely look, but naturally aged --since the medieval
era, or a shield used by vikings (or a cymbal played by vikings).
The surface "crud", whatever it is, seems to have softened the sound, though
it's not night and day. And I love that sizzle. It's a great second ride
(my other is a 22"), and it crashes well at all volumes. I'd post a photo
but I'm too cheap to buy a digital camera.
-Steve
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Email: val...@ihpc.REMOVE.THIS.net
<bja...@iwaynet.net> wrote in message news:bnu8r3$bvp$1...@tribune.oar.net...
Anthony Giampa
could hang a cymbal on one of thier walls? In some smoke-filled place? That
could do something... I don't know if a year would do anything but I
wonder...
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Anthony Giampa; Impe...@cox.net
"Pity makes me strong." -- Conan O'Brien
"Steve Vallee" <val...@ihpc.REMOVE.THIS.net> wrote in message
news:3fa20...@news1.prserv.net...
Mark D
Cymbals, especially new ones, and now thinking that you now need to do
something like age them, beat them, lathe them dip them, or whatever
(I'll keep the deletives out of my post for sanity)....... well let me
tell you, you really screwed yourself royally.
I'll say this, Cymbal selection is about the hardest thing any drummer
worth his salt has to do. For myself, choosing any Cymbal has been a
very hard chore, and it should be, if you want a Cymbal that fits your
style, and your tastes. Those that can afford numerous Rides, and
Crashes for different styles, is great. Though many can't. (I Can't)
When you bought that new Cymbal, something made you buy it, right? You
must have taken some liking to it. (Or was high on something when you
bought it, and now absolutely hate it!)
Best recommendation, if you now don't like sell it, and buy somnething
that you do like. Forget about burying it!
Think about this for a second. Mark
Steve Vallee
Yeah, something made me buy that cymbal... the inability to resist an ebay
auction with "only 5 minutes to go and it's only $48!!". No huge emotional
or financial investment. I wouldn't do it on something I hand picked or
spend big $$ on.
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Email: val...@ihpc.REMOVE.THIS.net