Are Drummers Made or Born?
MuffinHed
Jay Lundell ) writes:
>Are drummers made or born? I'd be interested in your opinion to the
following
>statement:
>[...]
False. It takes MUCH more than practice, motivation, instruction, etc
to be a high quality drummer, or any type of artist for that matter. Just
knowing how to play a Martian Overlapping 17th Note Paradiddle with your
feet doesn't mean one knows *when* or *how* to use it. If one studies for
50 years with Joe Drumgod, that doesn't mean they'll ever be able to
groove.
Drumming (and others) are more than technical proficiency. Internal
tempo, feel, and sense of melody and rhythm can't be learned. (Well, they
can for the most part, but only developed to a certain point.)
To be a good studio drummer whose phone is always ringing means that
you can play almost anything well, and you know how to play *for* each
situation. I can't imagine really good drummers like Charlie Benante
making a living as a studio drummer.
Muff Armpit Studios VII
_____________________________________________________________________
Oh, I see you've got the random access memory.
--Some guy on Fantasy Island talking about a hand-held calculator.
Jay Lundell
Are drummers made or born? I'd be interested in your opinion to the following
statement:
Given any "average" drummer with enough motivation, the proper teacher,
endless practise time, no day job to worry about, etc., he or she can
attain the same level of technical proficiency as Dave Weckl, Dennis
Chambers, Steve Gadd, or (your favorite drummer here).
True or False?
If true, would you make a stronger statement, like he
or she could be even MORE proficient than the current crop of drummers?
He or she could also attain the ARTISTIC level of the very "best"?
If false, what level is achieveable by an "average" drummer? Better
than Charlie Watts :-) Matt Sorum? Is any drummer capable of becoming
a top studio musician?
- Jay Lundell
Corvallis User Interface Lab
Hewlett Packard
Firstname Lastname
hereditary. Really.) but also that I (to some extent) made myself. I
took piano lessons for a couple of years before taking up the drums. I
continued both instruments, expanding to mallet instruments, timpany,
etc. By high school I was well beyond what my band director could help
me with, and there were no private instructors in the area. I read
books, sought out my own percussion literature, started a percussion
ensemble, and in general took off with my music. Of course I had
wonderful guidance for my formative years in music, but it was always a
very natural thing for me to grow "on my own." No one can teach you to
be a genius on your instrument. (no I'm not calling myself a genius.
Far from it.) My point is this: I'm honestly as good and better than
some folks I know who have been taking private lessons since they've
been on solid foods. It's beyond learned knowledge. It's a spiritual
connection or identification with the instrument(s) that can't be
taught. I don't want to wax poetic on how drumming is a spiritual
thing, because it would sound so cliche. But as far as I know it is
true. It's an Elvin Jones vs. Dave Weckl kind of thing. Elvin seems
to have been "born with it," while Dave,.. well, you get the point.
(Mr. Weckl, if your reading this- just want you to know that I bought
"Heads Up" and liked it.) Far be it from me to try and put my thoughts
on this subject into words, but there it was. I'd be incredibly
interested in hearing other's responces.
Patrick North
pnn...@psu.edu
Paul Mitchell
>Are drummers made or born?
Neither. They're cloned from the genes of Krupa, Rich and Karen Carpenter.
Luck of the draw which one you are. 8-}.
--
Paul Evans Mitchell <mitc...@panix.com>
212-858-1676 Follow your bliss.
Eric A. Lazo-Wasem
careful study and practice. Drums, like any musical instrument requires
control over complex muscle groups that, although they can be conditioned,
have finite limits. All the slow speed practice in the world is not going
to overcome muscular tendencies such as overgripping, muscle tightness and
the whole realm of repetitive stress disorders. How many top-flight
drummers (I mean that really can blow through any intricate rudimental
pattern without "straining") started "late in life". Not many I doubt;
remember the stories of Buddy Rich, who really could PLAY by the age of
two. Certainly my own two year old is years away from playing anything
that resembles real drumming. My own career started late and ended early
in frustration even after studying with an excellent teacher and my own
nearly driven practice habits. Great, I can figure out the chops in any
song I want - but I couldn't play a high school rudimental tryout if I
tried.
Yours, Eric A. Lazo-Wasem
Gilbert W Pilz
> that resembles real drumming. My own career started late and ended early
> in frustration even after studying with an excellent teacher and my own
> nearly driven practice habits. Great, I can figure out the chops in any
> song I want - but I couldn't play a high school rudimental tryout if I
> tried.
Oh man, this is too sad. It sounds like somebody sold you a bill of
goods on what it means to be a drummer. Did you ever play with a band ?
Did you ever just sit down and jam with a bunch of other players ?
There's a lot more to it than performing rudiments up to such and
such a standard . . . a *lot* more !
--
g...@world.std.com It's definitely a problem that the government, through a
technological fluke that allowed it to do wiretaps on
telephones, now believes it has a constitutional right to
eavesdrop on all conversations. - The Public Servant
DANIEL ADAM ZARRILLI
>statement:
>
> Given any "average" drummer with enough motivation, the proper teacher,
> endless practise time, no day job to worry about, etc., he or she can
> attain the same level of technical proficiency as Dave Weckl, Dennis
> Chambers, Steve Gadd, or (your favorite drummer here).
>
Just like with any other talent, (ie. athletic, academic, etc.) I believe that
most people are started off with a natural god given base to work with, and
that with proper practice, they can get better. But everyone reaches a
certain limit that they can't exceed. I'm accepting of the fact that I will
probably never reach the level of Gadd, Peart, Weckl, Chambers, etc, but I'm
also confident that I can hold my own among my peers.
Dan Zarrilli
da...@lehigh.edu
"It's all ball-bearings these days"
-Gordon Meyer
Dan Zarrilli
da...@lehigh.edu
Sean E. Kutzko
I think a legitimate question to ask is: What genre of drumming
are you talking about? Yeah, Terry Bozzio is a motherfucker, but
could he pull off the subtleties of Ray Barretto, or Tito Puente,
or Olatunji? A drummer's approach is genre-specific.
I think there is a cultural difference as well. In some societies
(West Africa comes to mind immediately), drumming, song and music
is an integral part of life. Many of these societies have, until
recently, no concept of music as a profession. Music was (is!)
a part of daily life. For some societal structures, such as in
Mali (or other caste-based societies where Islam had a major influence)
you a either born into music or not. If you're not, you DON'T
play an instrument.
Just my two cents.
--
"I have failed you, oh great wizard. I have failed you, my president."
-Weehawk, "Wizards"
MuffinHed
Mitchell) writes:
>Neither. They're cloned from the genes of Krupa, Rich and Karen
Carpenter.
>Luck of the draw which one you are. 8-}.
Ah, that explains why I smoke, sweat a lot, and seem to be growing
breasts.
Disclaimer for the humor-impaired:
It's a *joke*.
Dan P. Trainor
many years formal lessons are "over trained". Not that working on the
fundementals isn't important - It is important for playing good music.
But, what too many musicians (particularly drummers) are missing is the
"feel" of music, and when to use (and more importantly, when not to use)
certain phrases. We see all too often drummers who are superb technicians,
but fall short of being musical. Trying to fit in their latest double-bass
drum riff where it doesn't belong, musically. More often than not, the riff
is overly complex and emotionally disconnected from the music - It sounds
like shit...
I continue to hear players with advanced chops say "If only I could take more
lessons, or train with Joe Snare-io, I will become an awesome drummer. Maybe
so, but chances are you will become a worse musician. My advice is, to throw
the books/sheet music in the closet, listen to the music and develop your
OWN style! Try to express the music in its simplest form - with feel and
emotion. Think about what is the most natural way to support the others
musicians with a groove that lifts the song and keeps good time. Forget
about complexity!
As Billy Cobham would say "Simplicity of Expression, Depth of Thought"
Dan
Chris 'Coz' Costello
>
>I think a legitimate question to ask is: What genre of drumming
>are you talking about? Yeah, Terry Bozzio is a motherfucker, but
>could he pull off the subtleties of Ray Barretto, or Tito Puente,
>or Olatunji? A drummer's approach is genre-specific.
>
>I think there is a cultural difference as well. In some societies
>(West Africa comes to mind immediately), drumming, song and music
>is an integral part of life. Many of these societies have, until
>recently, no concept of music as a profession. Music was (is!)
>a part of daily life. For some societal structures, such as in
>Mali (or other caste-based societies where Islam had a major influence)
>you a either born into music or not. If you're not, you DON'T
>play an instrument.
>
>Just my two cents.
>
That brings up an interesting point. I suspect that this could
be similar to learning foreign languages. If you are exposed
to it at an early stage, it becomes more natural to you. African
culture is steeped in music and rhythm, so it comes naturally.
I started playing drums when I was 7 years old, and seem to have
taken to it pretty well, 17 years later. There may be some
natural talent prior to that as well, but I think that starting
early does help as well. For people in general that is. I make
no claim of having natural talent.
Later,
COZ
--
- - - -- - - - -- - - -- - - -- - - - -- - - - -- - - -- - - -- - -- - -- - ---
- Chris 'COZ' Costello cl...@midway.uchicago.edu -
- Hipness is transient. You have to change in order to be continually hip. -
- - Vinnie Colaiuta -
PalmCo
cl...@quads.uchicago.edu (Chris 'Coz' Costello) writes:
If anybody's still reading this string...
There was a great interview in Downbeat a long (too long) time ago with a
sax player I think and he summarized the issue as "Head, Hands, and
Heart". It's a pretty good framework for thinking about the question:
Head: intelligence, learning ability, analyzing complex beats and time
signitures, being creative about new things, etc. It's fair to say people
are born with differing levels of resources in this area, but it's also a
question of how much attention you pay here and how great your desire is.
Hands: chops, hands and feet, twirling your sticks, huge single stroke
rolls, the mechanics of coordinated independence, etc. Some people are
born more with more athleticism and coordination than others but once
again if you work hard enough you can overcome deficiencies here (Michael
Jordan vs. Larry Bird...there's probably a good long string about this one
somewhere else on the net :-))
Heart: hard to describe...sensitivity, the feeling that the drummer is
communicating, "musicality", inspiration, intuition, groove...it seems
like this one is the one that's hard to get if you aren't born with it -
once a certain level of head and hands are achieved, I think this is the
one that makes musicians "great"
What do you think?
Joel
Jesse C. Chang
>I think a legitimate question to ask is: What genre of drumming
>are you talking about? Yeah, Terry Bozzio is a motherfucker, but
>could he pull off the subtleties of Ray Barretto, or Tito Puente,
>or Olatunji? A drummer's approach is genre-specific.
Guess you never heard him play with Mark Isham then. :)
Anyone who likes that kind of music (sorta New Age meets Jazz meets World
Music meets Industrial) should check out Mark Isham's "Castalia". One of
my favorite albums of all time. TB plays on 3 of the 7 tracks, and runs
the gamut from soft and expressive to explosive.
--
!! Jesse C. Chang | "Sometimes it seemed to him that his life
[___] dru...@netcom.com | was delicate as a dandelion. One little
`|' usl...@mcl.mcl.ucsb.edu | puff from any direction, and it was blown
/|\ k...@squid.ucsb.edu | to bits." --from _Bridge to Terabithia_
Jeff Lewis
>My advice is, to
a)
> listen to the music and develop your OWN style!
> Try to express the music in its simplest form - with feel and emotion.
> Think about what is the most natural way to support the others musicians
> would say "Simplicity of Expression, Depth of Thought"
I whole-heartedly agree with b). However, I think it's too easy, especially
when listening to the words of highly talented individuals, to forget that
elegant simplicity can be hard! It is often easier to play something
`more complex' than it is to play something `simple' - you play more notes
to compensate for your inablility to make it groove with fewer notes/at a
slower tempo. It is easy to overlook the fact that Billy Cobham's idea of
`simple' is really the culmination of years of playing and practice. This is
why I don't agree at all with a) - unless you're just an absolute natural
talent! The practice and `book learning' (exercises out of books) I've done
has immensely helped my playing - and I think what it has helped most is my
ability to play `simple' things. Unless you can play anything you hear,
practice with books (or whatever) is the only way you're going to develop
the skills to play that groove/lick that is just perfect for the music.
Otherwise, if you're like me at all, you end up just employing the same set
of licks to everything you play -- which can get old real fast.
--Jeff
Steve Klekas
high level of competency. If you have some natural ability, and are lazy, the
hard worker may surpass you. If you have above average ability, *and* you work
hard, then you can approch the top, depending on the mixture of the two. If you
are a genius, you can approch the top (perhaps) anyway, but probably won't get
to the pinacle (this is still possible in the Arts, though). If you have it all
- genius, resources, desire - then, with a little luck you will make it to the
pantheon. These are IMO, drummers such as Rich, Roach, Jones, Williams, Morello,
and Gadd.
Daniel F. Krawiec
ja...@cv.hp.com ( Jay Lundell ) writes:
> Are drummers made or born? I'd be interested in your opinion to the following
> statement:
>
> Given any "average" drummer with enough motivation, the proper teacher,
> endless practise time, no day job to worry about, etc., he or she can
> attain the same level of technical proficiency as Dave Weckl, Dennis
> Chambers, Steve Gadd, or (your favorite drummer here).
>
> True or False?
False.
Drummers are born. They have no choice but to play what they hear.
Sheer talent. They are going for that "other thing" and getting into
the zone. You know it when you hear it.
krawiec
Choda
J> endless practise time, no day job to worry about, etc., he or she can
J> attain the same level of technical proficiency as Dave Weckl, Dennis
J> Chambers, Steve Gadd, or (your favorite drummer here).
J>
J> True or False?
anything is possible... especially with all the above things to think
about... just a little hard work.. it's like ear training, if you work at it
properly, you'll have no problem after a little while, but if you talk about
learning it, YOU are the problem.... it all depends on the way you go about
it.. now they might not reach the exact same level, but they wouldn't be far
behind.. then again, you never know until you have tried.
Choda,
ch...@digital.mtlnet.org
Larry Gale
>
>
>Are drummers made or born?
<Several lines deleted>
I think training and lots of time and practice can make a competent drummer.
However, I was NOT a "natural". As a 10 year old kid, I couldn't really keep time
when I started lessons. Now, 28 years later, I can do a workmanlike job on a lot
of styles. But I recognized my limitations in college, when I knew I didn't have
the single-minded intensity of a top of the line, professional drummer. So I
pursued a career in computers, and play music more for fun.
===============================================================================
+ +
+ Larry Gale Systems Engineer +
+ ga...@grace.musc.edu Clinical Support Systems +
+ (803)-792-6002 (voice) Center for Computing & Information Technology +
+ (803)-792-8319 (fax) Medical University of South Carolina +
+ 171 Ashley Avenue +
+ Charleston, SC 29425 +
+ +
===============================================================================
BriNelson
writes:
> think training and lots of time and practice can make a competent
drummer.
>However, I was NOT a "natural". As a 10 year old kid, I couldn't really
keep time
>when I started lessons. Now, 28 years later, I can do a workmanlike job
on a lot
>of styles. But I recognized my limitations......
I agree. I run the other way around. I have a great musical feel but
slow hands. I have found my place in contemporary christian music and
small club and commercial jazz gigs.
Music is mostly in the head on only secondarily in the hands.
Brian N