GMS or DW?
Mr M.D. Gardner
Drum Workshop
GMS
thanks,
Matt
RaySpell54
Spaun!
: )
DW.
BECAUSE.
Now I'm going to get people complaining about one word non-descriptive answers,
and "you really have to listen for yourself to decide" people. So bring it on!
-MIKE-
After espousing the merits of DW in a very recent post, I might lean towards
GMS on this one. I love the new lugs GMS is making. And they actually make
them, not import them. You can email GMS at: gms...@aol.com or go to
http://www.gmsdrums.com (but you probably know that) They also lurk here
occasionally.
John Van Ness from DW will answer all your questions about DW. He will
surely respond to this thread. Also check out Spaun drums at
http://www.spaundrums.com They also make their own lugs and they are very
attractive and functional.
I always give preference to folks who make their own stuff. As far as I
know Spaun and GMS use Keller shells. There is nothing wrong with that
because Keller makes some of the best shells available. DW is making their
own shells, now. But their lugs are imported and I just can't get away from
the fact that they look and feel very cheap. They do have a great
RIMS-esque mounting system with cradles the lugs, not the tension rods.
This allows you to change the heads without taking off the mount.
Bottom line. Talk to all these companies before you decide. I can say
without reservation that you need not play a single one of any of these
drums before you buy. That's not usually good advice, but with all three of
these brands, great sound is a given. Get a look at them if you can.
-MIKE-
Catalystin
There are very many levels to judge a set of drums construction, structural
integrity, appearance function, tone. If you are looking for the best all
around drum you cant beat the GMS drums. The hardware on the Special addition
and the Grand Master are milled of solid brass no tubing and there is god solid
reasons for every thing on the drum no hype just reason. The resonant qualities
of brass are well documented and of course they are more rugged than any other.
The Tone speaks for its self, They are very rich. The finish on the GMS drums
are as good as it gets and the attention to details is very high. In short they
are excellent drums made to sound great and made to last through several
generations. I am in no way implying that other drum companies drums do not
look good or even sound good. But if you want it all it is possible with GMS.
David
Robert Schuh
David,
I think that GMS makes fine drums, but how can it be justified for them to be so
much higher in cost than say Spaun drums? They both use Keller shells and solid
brass hardware. This is not GMS I am talking about either. Pork Pie is in the same
boat. My basic premise is why the cost so much more? It does not make much sense to
me. I am curious as to your association with GMS also. I endorse Spaun drums and I
have NEVER sucked their cock as badly as you are GMS here. That is the problem with
AOL, ANYONE can set up a million account names and be shill for anyone. That is how
we caught old Dorfman spamming his Trick drums. You have an obvious agenda, so you
really ought to bring it out into the open.
Thanks
--
Robert Schuh
"The Most Trolled Man On The Internet!"
Stevie, Trane, Jaco, Jimi and Bird are GODS!
Donate your organs. Save a life.
Proud Endorser of Spaun Drums
John Van Ness
I give the impression of being bored , but I am not really.
I've just got an incredibly boring face. - Charlie Watts
Cliff Hyslop
some sweet, sweet drums, especially the piccolo snare variety. Mike's a
nice guy, to boot - I learned a lot about metal drum construction,
regardless of the manufacturer, from him.
It just sucks seeing some of the mass giants sell their tinny-tin-tin shell
snares for waaay more than they're worth en masse, and then seeing a company
like Trick, who makes superior-sounding and superior-quality snares at a
lower margin, get pushed to the wayside. Those 4" snares are quite nice.
Cliff
Robert Schuh <rsc...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:38BAD321...@yahoo.com...
Scott Hoffman
same type 8 ply Keller shells (1/4" thick all maple)
anyone have information on whether both shells are the exact same thickness
or not? I'd put my money on it that they are the same shells but with
different bearing edges.
Both companies use a low mass brass lug and triple flanged 2.3 mil. hoops,
so I guess the difference is in the finish (satin vs. gloss). The prices
still aren't even close. I am not a fan of the 8 ply shell, but I'd
definitely go with Spaun on this one. As for the difference between DW and
GMS, it's apples and oranges. DW uses a 5ply shell w/3ply reinforcement ring
and GMS uses an 8 ply unreinforced shell; two totally different drum sounds.
There is no "better" brand, you must let your ears decide, both companies
make quality highend kits at highend prices.
--
Cheers!
Scott Hoffman
Until next time, keep time.
Aladdin Sane
You made a point, succinct as it is... :-)
Peace!
RaySpell54 <raysp...@cs.com> wrote in message
news:20000228084520...@ng-cf1.news.cs.com...
Mike C.
I have been a representative for both GMS and now D.W. They are both very
high quality drum sets. Out of the custom high-end drums on the market GMS
and D.W. have the best quality laquer finishes going. I would not say one is
any better made or sounds better than the other. GMS and D.W. sound
differant from each other. Each brand has it's own benefits and features and
sound. I highly suggest you play both sets your self before you make your
decision. Take one of the toms from both sets and slacken each head and
retune the tom to check there ease of tuning, check out the snare drums the
same way and make your own conclusion of which brand you like best.
--
Mike Carter
Aquarian, Drum Workshop, Paiste
World Class Percussion
Mr M.D. Gardner <mdga...@hgmp.mrc.ac.uk> wrote in message
Robert Schuh
> I agree with you here Rob. As far as I can tell both Spaun and GMS use the
> same type 8 ply Keller shells (1/4" thick all maple)
> anyone have information on whether both shells are the exact same thickness
> or not? I'd put my money on it that they are the same shells but with
> different bearing edges.
> Both companies use a low mass brass lug and triple flanged 2.3 mil. hoops,
> so I guess the difference is in the finish (satin vs. gloss). The prices
> still aren't even close. I am not a fan of the 8 ply shell, but I'd
> definitely go with Spaun on this one. As for the difference between DW and
> GMS, it's apples and oranges. DW uses a 5ply shell w/3ply reinforcement ring
> and GMS uses an 8 ply unreinforced shell; two totally different drum sounds.
> There is no "better" brand, you must let your ears decide, both companies
> make quality highend kits at highend prices.
>
> --
> Cheers!
> Scott Hoffman
>
> Until next time, keep time.
>
>
Scott,
I am curious, what is it that you don't like about the 8 ply shell? It really
can not be too thick as the Keller 8 ply is far more thin than almost all other
companies 6 or 7 ply shells. It is the thinness or thickness that determines the
sound. DW has thin ply shells also, but companies like Yamaha's plies are quite
thick compared to Keller's shells. I would venture to guess that the Yamaha 7
ply shell that comes on the Maple Absolutes is twice as thick as the Keller 8
ply.
Robert Schuh
> I obviously missed the "Trick" ****-sucking, but I will say that Trick makes
> some sweet, sweet drums, especially the piccolo snare variety. Mike's a
> nice guy, to boot - I learned a lot about metal drum construction,
> regardless of the manufacturer, from him.
>
> It just sucks seeing some of the mass giants sell their tinny-tin-tin shell
> snares for waaay more than they're worth en masse, and then seeing a company
> like Trick, who makes superior-sounding and superior-quality snares at a
> lower margin, get pushed to the wayside. Those 4" snares are quite nice.
>
> Cliff
>
>
Cliff,
Old Mike came into this newsgroup and was talking shit about how his drums were
so fucking wonderful etc., using different AOL names. That is REALLY bush league
crap. I think the guy is a big fucking pussy. He even called an endorser of his
here in Phoenix and whined about me and told this guy all sorts of lies. He even
called Brain Spaun and tried to get Bill Ray and I in "trouble." What a jism
stain. He has ZERO integrity and a pussy of the highest caliber. Could you
imagine one of DW's top guys or Brian Spaun coming in here under an assumed name
and serendipitously propping up their product? NO! The guy is an asshole.
Stephen Gibson
Having gone through a similar process in choosing my "final" drum set not
too long ago, I sympathize with the difficulties of comparing high-quality
drum sets. My final "contenders" were GMS and Noble & Cooley. I chose the
GMS, so I must admit having both an emotional and monetary investment.
Accordingly, take this post with a grain of salt, as it may contain
subconcious attempts to justify that selection. Except for that intrinsic
bias, however, I have no affiliation with GMS Drums other than as a
satisfied retail customer.
Beyond the above disclaimer, no one can tell whether DW or GMS would be
"best" *for you*. Both are well-made products, but they really are so
different in approach that comparing them is like comparing apples and
oranges. The objective differences between GMS and DW -- shells,
reinforcing rings, finish, and lug design -- have been documented in several
earlier posts and need not be repeated here.
The only thing I would add to the "objective" factors is that the ingenious
design of the tension casting allows the lug "nut" to adjust to a wide range
of angles, which makes proper alignment of the heads and accurate tuning a
snap. This may seem like a small thing, but I believe they go a long way to
contributing to GMS's very clear, open sound. By "open", I'm referring to
the clarity of the note of each drum. Equipped with a good single-ply heads
and properly tuned, GMS toms produce an almost bell-like tone. That may not
be the sound you're looking for all the time, but it's nice to know that you
can achieve it. As someone once said, you can always take away resonance
and ring, but it's impossible to add it if it's not inherent in the design.
One of the benefits of this "open" sound is that even those of us not
blessed with "golden" ears can easily tune accurately. One really doesn't
have to "guess" if each tension rod is properly tuned. "In tune" v.
"out-of-tune" is obvious. If you're a photographer, the best analogy for
what I'm trying to say here is that tuning the GMS's v. other drums I've
owned or had substantial experience with are like focusing a Leica
rangefinder camera v. an SLR in low light. In the former, when it's right
jumps out at you; with the latter you end up working past the sweet spot to
find it and then working back to it.
Another benefit is that the GMS's have a broad sonic palette from which to
work. That's not to say that they will sound like a birch kit, which is
another apples to oranges comparison. However, wihtin the realm of maple
kits, they are very versatile and sound good regardless of whether you're
looking for a bright, lively jazz sound or a dryer, deeper, darker rock
tuning. Variations in tuning, heads, and playing style on the GMS's seem to
make a more pronounced difference than the other drums that I've owned or
had the opportunity to use for an extended period of time. With the
possible exception of solid-shell kits, with which I've not had extensive
experience, I've heard no other drum (no, I haven't heard them all) that
reveals more from these variables.
Not being a professional reviewer, none of the above may make sense until
you've had the opportunity to sit down at a kit, tune it, play it, try
different head combinations and, experience what I'm trying to describe for
yourself. Until then, the following review (I know, anyone can find a
favorable review for anything) may be more helpful than my ramblings in
trying to get convey what a GMS kit is about. See
http://www.cyberdrum.com/pr_kk_gms_grandmasterseries.htm The bottom line is
that if I had to do it all over again, I'd buy a GMS kit again, even though
they are more costly than other drums based on Keller shells. I'm *that*
happy with the look, feel and sound of the kit, and -- just as
importantly -- the post-sale support that GMS has provided. Given the fit,
finish, and quality and quantity of material and labor that goes into a GMS
kit, I feel that I received good value for the money.
Speaking of "value," Rob Schuh pointed out (Hi, Rob), Spaun makes an
equally good-sounding drum for less money. However, the actual difference
in price between Sapun and GMS isn't as great as I would have gathered from
Rob's post. Using the suggested retail prices listed in the Cyberdrum
review for the GMS Grand Master Series v. Spaun's Suggested Retail List at
http://www.spaundrums.com/pricelist.html, the GMS kit under review "lists"
for $4225, whereas a comparable Spaun kit "lists" for $3450 -- a difference
of $775. Assuming that a given dealer would give you the same percentage
discount from "list" prices on either kit, the dollar amount of that
difference will be even less. Rob, of course, can, has, and will speak for
himself :-). But, I think the point he's making is that he doesn't think
the cost of the labor involved in the GMS finish and the cost of materials
and machining of the more substantial GMS lug is worth it. I certianly
respect his sonic assessments, as his advice on other matters of equipment
sound has been spot on. Even if that's true here, my experience has been
that more than simple functionality is involved in being truly happy with
any substantial investment. If, as your question states, you are interested
in "the best" for you, then only *you* can judge the value of the "look and
feel" of the differences between a Spaun and a GMS. If it takes an
additional $775 for things that don't make one bit of difference in sound to
be truly happy with your selection, then I'd say the additional marginal
cost is more than worth it. It certainly was to me.
Anyway, you asked for "the best", didn't you? :-)
Apologies for the length of this missive, but I hope it helps you choose the
best kit for you.
Good luck,
Stephen Gibson
RaySpell54
from DW. I love (LOVE) DW drums, but I also love not selling body parts to get
drums. DWs are a bit pricy for my taste, and Spaun makes wonderful drums that
are comparatively dirt cheap.
Scott Hoffman
Scott,
I am curious, what is it that you don't like about the 8 ply shell? It
really
can not be too thick as the Keller 8 ply is far more thin than almost all
other
companies 6 or 7 ply shells. It is the thinness or thickness that determines
the
sound. DW has thin ply shells also, but companies like Yamaha's plies are
quite
thick compared to Keller's shells. I would venture to guess that the Yamaha
7
ply shell that comes on the Maple Absolutes is twice as thick as the Keller
8
ply.
Rob, I guess what I was trying to find out was whether the Spaun and GMS
shells were the same thickness. I had a GMS kit that sounded very good. They
had a focused, well-balanced sound that did favor higher tuning and did seem
to get a tad more volume from the toms. I just wanted a bit more midrange
from the drums that a slightly thinner shell would give me. I guess I could
have achieved this with a thicker head, but I prefer the medium weight
heads. I do feel that the 8 ply shells offer more variations of sound just
by changing the types of heads than the thinner shell, but as I mentioned, I
like the single ply feel more. How thick (thin) is the Spaun 8 ply shell
anyway, 1/4"? I guess that's not too bad. Are they the same as the GMS
shell? Now I'm curious!
sirnose99
Scott Hoffman
ply that really lacked depth) I had from them, and the snare (8 ply 5x14)
was very thin sounding. But I must say that I really loved Bill's (Detamore)
toms. Great finish too.
--
Cheers!
Scott Hoffman
Until next time, keep time.
sirnose99 <sirn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:38BB8B9D...@hotmail.com...
> PorkPie!!!
>
Robert Schuh
> --
> Cheers!
> Scott Hoffman
>
> Until next time, keep time.
They are 5 mm, so they are less than a 1/4". That is still pretty thin! :-)
Robert Schuh
Stephen,
Where did you find the price list for GMS? I am wondering if both of those kits
include all of the same things too. The last time I looked there was a MUCH
larger difference in retail pricing. It was especially so in the snares and the
bass drums. It is odd that many companies are apprehensive about posting their
retail prices on their web site.
Stephen Gibson
I got GMS's prices from the Cyberdrum review cited in my post, which listed
the individual GMS drum prices as follows. I've taken the liberty of
including the prices for the comparable Spaun. The prices for GMS are for
the Grand Master Series, which are lacquer finishes, and the prices for
Spauns are for the gloss lacquer finish. Tom prices for both include the
supplied suspension systems. No other hardware was included so, as far as I
know, this is a fair comparison. At least, I was trying to make it fair.
Here's the drum by drum breakdown:
Drum GMS Spaun
18"x22" $1670.00 $1375.00
8"x10" $680.00 $650
9"x12" $800.00 $675
14"x14" $1075.00 $750
Total $4225.00 $3,450.00
I quite agree that if "suggested retail" prices are going to be used by
manufacturers as reference points, then they ought to publish them. I would
have included DW in this comparison but after a non-exhaustive search I
couldn't find a source on the web that provided suggested retail prices.
You mentioned that you thought GMS's prices were higher than those I used.
Strangely enough, the prices listed on the Cyberdrum site seemed higher than
I remembered from a recent quote I received on some extra toms. Maybe GMS
doesn't "suggest" a retail price and leaves it to the dealers. That might
expain the apparent disparity in price perception. Of course, my
recollection may simply be wrong. In any event, I think the review on
Cyberdrum is fairly recent. If the prices aren't current, I can't believe
that they are that far off.
Best regards,
SG
Stephen Gibson
I don't mean to pick on you, but if your post was intended to be helpful (as
opposed to a mere ego exercise), you might do more than condescendingly post
two brand names (sans explanation) in a manner that presupposes that your
conclusion should be obvious to anyone that's not an idiot. Some people
with pretty good track records on RMMP for knowing their stuff (I'm not
referring to myself here, but rather to Mike Radcliffe and Rob Schuh) don't
think it's so obvious. They didn't mention Slingerland or Premier. If you
can't be bothered to explain your recommendations, at least post some
credentials to show Matt why he should disregard their record of credibility
in favor of your advice.
Regarding your specific suggestions, let's talk about Slingerland first.
Unless you're referring to the stencil kits they're selling at Musicyo,
isn't Slingerland a bit of a moot point? Unless I've missed some recent
development, it's been reported here that the "real" Slingy kits aren't
currently in production and that substantial uncertainty exists over whether
they ever will be again. If you have concrete information to the contrary,
the newsgroup would love to hear about it. If not, would you really suggest
that, with all the excellent drums out there, Matt should buy an NOS kit .
. . if he can find one . . . from a company whose future is as uncertain as
Slingerland? If so, please explain why.
Regarding Premier, they are a fine company, but they make a lot of kits.
Are you saying that *any* Premier kit would be better than *any* GMS or DW
kit? If that were as obvious to everyone as you seem to think, I wonder how
GMS and DW stay in business. If you're referring to a specific model,
wouldn't it be more helpful to Matt to provide a specific recommendation and
some reasoning or experiences with which to back it up?
Stephen Gibson
kzildjian
"Mr M.D. Gardner" wrote:
>
> Quite simple - Which is best and why in your opinion.:
>
> Drum Workshop
> GMS
>
> thanks,
> Matt
Rich B
>Quite simple - Which is best and why in your opinion.:
>
>Drum Workshop
>GMS
Neither...check out MRP Drums.
www.mrpdrums.com
(oh, I'm a bad boy! such a spammer i am!) =)
*****************************************
strat81 Rich '99 SL1
My thoughts and prayers go out to all of those
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Frank, John, and Aaron, R.I.P.
Dana, Alvaro, Ken, Tom, and Nick, Get Well Soon.
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Cliff Hyslop
>
> Cliff,
> Old Mike came into this newsgroup and was talking shit about how his drums
were
> so fucking wonderful etc., using different AOL names. That is REALLY bush
league
> crap. I think the guy is a big fucking pussy. He even called an endorser
of his
> here in Phoenix and whined about me and told this guy all sorts of lies.
He even
> called Brain Spaun and tried to get Bill Ray and I in "trouble." What a
jism
> stain. He has ZERO integrity and a pussy of the highest caliber. Could you
> imagine one of DW's top guys or Brian Spaun coming in here under an
assumed name
> and serendipitously propping up their product? NO! The guy is an asshole.
Hmmmm...interesting. Wouldn't have thought, from my conversations with him,
but stranger things have happened. I don't understand why he'd have to
resort to "self-pumping" to sell his stuff - the sound should sell them by
itself. Thicker-aluminum shells just seem to be a perfect medium for
piccolo snare drums.
I will say that my respect level for certain companies has
increased/decreased by the actions of some company representatives here in
the past. Word travels fast on the 'net, eh?
Cliff
Robert Schuh
Cliff,
The term is "self-pimping" or just plain old "pimping!" :-)
chris cawthray
In some ways, these two are apples and oranges... DW likes to use the goofy
reinforcing rings, whereas GMS makes a nice thick shell, the way drums shoud
be. :)
chris
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
chris cawthray
dr...@interlog.com
41656...@pcs.cantelatt.com (short messages only please)
http://www.mp3.com/relaxwithtrudy
http://chriscawthray.tripod.com
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
sirnose99
called The Music Loft and they are the top selling PorkPie dealers, so
far. Every kit they've gotten in has had a FAT-FAT kick sound. I'm
talkin' Ridiculoso! The snares have been the same way. Now the smaller
toms can be a little less than stellar. (8,10) 12's are OK and 14-16 are
kookie how ballsy they are.
You must have run across an unusual kit. Who know's?! Anyway, I was just
having a little fun. Let me know how the survey turns out.
Later-
Wayne
Robert Schuh
Chris,
The GMS shells are FAR from being thick. They are less than 1/4". They use the
Keller 8 ply shell just like Spaun.
MK
ever played.
I am a personal friend of Rob (the owner) and spent time in there
workshop, and they take great care in making the drums, everything is
handmade and nothing is compromised.
Peace.
Robert Schuh
That is nice to hear, but if you want anyone to take what you say
seriously, why be anonymous? Hiding behind a bogus name gives you ZERO
credibility.
MK
Robert Schuh
> Hiding? what difference dos it make what my name is!
Without it, you have ZERO credibility, plus we have had people here who
work for drum companies who came in and pimped their products under
bogus screen names: ie it was Mike Dorfman from Trick Drums.
MK
I felt about the drums. Jeez,... didn't think I get so much slack for
it. and by the way it's Matt
Robert Schuh
Cool, that's a start! :-)
PeriscopeR
I think if he said YOUR drumming sucked shit he should sign his name.. but if
he's talking about what brand he likes, he could go anonymous. I usually sign
my name "e" because I'm kind of shy and don't usually slander people..
shouldn't be an issue.
Evan Schiller
Subject: Re: GMS or DW?
From: Robert Schuh <A HREF="mailto:rsc...@yahoo.com">rsc...@yahoo.com</A>
Date: Sat, Mar 4, 2000 7:24 AM
Message-id: <38C0BA46...@yahoo.com>