Bands with 2 drummers
Bermuda Schwartz
drummers. We thought of Allman Brothers and Grateful Dead right off
that bat, and Zappa also used 2 drummers at times...
But who else was known for that?
Bermuda
Pat McDonald
Schwartz <ber...@weirdal.com> wrote:
Charlie used to use 2 years ago but not anymore thank goodness!
Pat
Mark Hasty
<ber...@weirdal.com>:
Didn't the Doobie Brothers use two drummers? Keith Knudsen and a
bunch of other people?
--mh
------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Hasty (ho...@sentco.not)
Displaced Iowan (net ^ )
You have to be rated to be underrated.
Lee Jones
Pat McDonald <patd...@home.com> wrote in <050320012121573194%
patd...@home.com>:
William Vits
Bermuda Schwartz <ber...@weirdal.com> wrote in message
news:pfl8ato5iudq8d46c...@4ax.com...
Bill Ray Drums
--
Nowhere is Now Here.
Best Regards,
13612
Bill Ray
www.billraydrums.com
"Give a man a fish and you've fed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and
you've given him an excuse to drink more beer."
Garrison Keillor
"William Vits" <vi...@home.com> wrote in message
news:WPZo6.29635$W05.6...@news1.rdc1.mi.home.com...
MarkSerbian@home
"lead drum set" - Don himself played drums once in a while too. Those cats
could swing in 17/4 time - just awesome!
- Mark Serbian
"Bill Ray Drums" <bi...@billraydrums.com_SPAM_ME_NOT> wrote in message
news:HWZo6.8016$o7.1...@news1.rdc1.sdca.home.com...
Jay Epstein
Jay
"You are what you rhythmically eat." - Bill Vits
Michael Fell
I recently saw the Moody blues on PBS and they had two drummers.
Also, didnt Pink Floyd use two in a more recent tour?
Mike
Frank
Frank
"Bermuda Schwartz" <ber...@weirdal.com> wrote in message
news:pfl8ato5iudq8d46c...@4ax.com...
n[m]
In article <pfl8ato5iudq8d46c...@4ax.com>,
Bermuda Schwartz <ber...@weirdal.com> wrote:
--
Noah
"Writing about music is like dancing about architecture."
--Frank Zappa
Joseph Benzola
period of time form 1965-1966. Cecil Taylor used both Sunny Murray and
Jerome Cooper in his band of the early to mid 1980's. King Krimson had both
Bruford and ...the name escapes me at this time but it is from one of the
recent versions. Plus for a while in the early 1970's, Bruford was joined
by Jamie Muir in KC on not only percussion, but industrial drum set. I have
seen footage of Captain Beefheart with both Drumbo & Art Tripp. Though he
didn't tour with multiple drummers, Miles recorded Bitches Brew and other
material at the time with multiple grouping of drummers including Billy
Cobham, Lenny White, Jack DeJohnette,& Billy Hart.
Joseph Benzola
Amanita Music
amanit...@systec.com
ama...@optonline.net
www.homemademusic.com/artists/amanita
www.kspace.com/amanita
www.mp3.com/amanitamusic
Bermuda Schwartz <ber...@weirdal.com> wrote in message
news:pfl8ato5iudq8d46c...@4ax.com...
Az hosers
>Bermuda Schwartz <ber...@weirdal.com> wrote:
>about bands known for using 2
>>drummers. We thought of Allman Brothers and Grateful Dead right off
>>that bat, and Zappa also used 2 drummers at times...
Charlie Daniels used two drummers for years!
DDSD
REMOVE@home.com Steve Gardner
"Frank" <NoPersonal...@Thankyou.com> wrote in message
news:Sm_o6.821$G76.4...@typhoon.ne.mediaone.net...
Barry & Jamie Stuck
concert.
Of course Phil Collins does the same thing with what ever drummer he gets.
From Jamie--
Jamie's Drum Page
www.bstuck.com/jamie
Foo Fighters Video Guide
www.bstuck.com/foovids
Foo Fighters Equipment Archive
www.foogear.8m.com
Tama Drummers
www.tamadrummer.8m.com
Drummer's WebRing
www.jamiedrums.com
"Bermuda Schwartz" <ber...@weirdal.com> wrote in message
news:pfl8ato5iudq8d46c...@4ax.com...
RIDDIM
Doobies, .38 Special, Charlie Daniels....
gordy gale
back in the late 80's. What a blast, especially on Frankenstein.
--
Gordy Gale
Stephen Mulholland
Doobie Brothers. There were also a bunch of charting bands here in the UK
in the 70's/80's that used two drummers. Gary Glitter, Adam and the Ants,
Showaddywaddy, plus some others I can't remember.
Stephen
>
> Bermuda
Xpunky Bash
XB
Richard Head
a small kit and another on a large kit. When live there is always a drum
duet, with the main drummer on the big kit doing a pretty impressive solo
(he'll throw his sticks into the audience and carry on with his hands!) He
also did the rotating stage thing once (he was ratated slowly upsidown
during a song.) How he kept it together I dont know.
and Ive seen bently rhythm ace use 2 drummers
--
remove the ZZZ to reply
John Clark
John.
"Bermuda Schwartz" <ber...@weirdal.com> wrote in message
news:pfl8ato5iudq8d46c...@4ax.com...
John Clark
John.
"Richard Head" <rhead...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:982fi3$npv$1...@trog.dera.gov.uk...
AJDalton7
>XB
Two of the best of the 60's.
Clyde Stubblefield and Jabo Starks.
Amoung many others.
JB went through a lot of Cats.
Bootsie Collins did some nice funky bass too !!
Furrtig
greg
resident aol troglodite
Mark Smith
--
-=-=-
Mark
"It felt like I was being sexed up by a giant leech" - Celia (Maxim, August
2000)
"As long as....no one bogarts the beater" - Bill Ray
"Nothing says social awareness like 'CHECK OUT MY RACK' " - Louis Black
-=-=-
Bermuda Schwartz <ber...@weirdal.com> wrote in message
news:pfl8ato5iudq8d46c...@4ax.com...
Brad Miller
Lee Jones
Nick mason plays kit and another guys plays a HUGE percussion setup that has
kit elements to it.
Michael Fell <mfel...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in <WXKkOuUhftG3XGSDGQu6
+GMC...@4ax.com>:
Lee Jones
Paralleled by only one other song:
Hokus Pokus by Focus!
krun...@mindspring.com (keith runfola) wrote in <3aa7a701.4486531@news>:
>On Tue, 06 Mar 2001 08:13:26 GMT, gordy gale <gord...@home.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Me and Tommy Brechtlein BOTH played with Edgar Winter in concert once
>>back in the late 80's. What a blast, especially on Frankenstein.
>
>That's too cool Gordy! Frankenstein was a seminal recording in some
>way that I am not eloquent enough to describe.
>
>OK, I'll give it a shot. :) I think it had something to do with the
>relatively complex form, the cool synths,solos,sax section etc.
>Very ambitious for the time.
>Plus, it was just a plain bad-ass tune. :)
>
>
>Keith Runfola
>www.jazzdrummer.com
>
>
Ed Pierce
and somebody else.
Ed
Bermuda Schwartz
<mulho...@rocketmail.com> wrote:
>
>Doobie Brothers. There were also a bunch of charting bands here in the UK
>in the 70's/80's that used two drummers. ... Adam and the Ants
Wow, forgot about that, and I was a big fan!
mancs
couple of studio tracks), but Steely Dan used two drummers on their
'74 tour - Jim Hodder and Jeff Porcaro. Wish I had been old enough to
follow that tour!
take care,
Liz
"Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone,
somewhere, may be happy."
-H. L. Mencken
Stephen Mulholland
We played support to one of the other bands I mentioned - Showaddywaddy - on
their few dates over here. Nothing major, they're on the hotel circuit now,
but somewhere along the line, they've lost a drummer. There's only one now.
Those gigs were a little strange. On the first one, there wasn't enough
room on stage for my kit (I'm a leftie, he was a rightie, his kit was all
rack-mounted, so I couldn't use his kit) so the roadies made another little
stage beside the main stage for my kit! The rest of the band was up on
stage, I was stuck off to one side like an unwanted guest at a wedding! :)
On the next gig, the stage was even smaller, so I had no choice but to use
the other drummer's kit. The roadies were great, they re-jigged the kit so
I could at least get my snare and hi-hat into position, and we got through
the gig all right.
His kit sounded great, though - Genistas. Very nice.
The gigs were timed rather strangely, too. We did the first hour, the other
band then came on and did their 2-hour set, then we did the last hour.
Stephen
Stephen Mulholland
Lee Jones <scrub...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:Xns905C6859C21B...@207.126.101.97...
>
> Paralleled by only one other song:
>
> Hokus Pokus by Focus!
One of the bands I played with used to do a "Great Intros of our Time"
section. Hocus Pocus, Black Night, Whole Lotta Love, all sorts of nonsense.
It was great fun!
Stephen
-MIKE-
Ringo up front, air drumming. And Bernard Purdy back stage playing
the actual parts.
(:cp
-MIKE-
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrums.com or hit 'reply'
Benjamin Jacoby
> The Beatles.
> Ringo up front, air drumming. And Bernard Purdy back stage playing
> the actual parts.
> (:cp
> -MIKE-
<snort!> :-)
And on a more serious note: James Brown ...Clyde and Jabo.
In Brown's band I think he at times had as many as 4 drummers
but usually they wouldn't all play at once. Clyde and Jabo
did though. Those guys can make two drumsets sound like
an octopus playing one monster kit.
And yeah, the Band did have two drummers. Levon gives a fine
speech on one of his videos about how if one drummer is
good, two drummers are better. And then goes on about some
gig he had with FOUR drummers and how if two drummers were
cool, four was killer. I remained unconvinced. :-)
Benj
--
SPAM-GUARD! Remove "user.", if present, from address to email me.
jr
jr
Guest
(on TV) with a drummer -- then at least on one song, Don Henley went back
and played set at the same time. Maybe I'm just confabulating that.
Richard Kallio
time? Or am I thinking of Traffic?
Riffkiller
Lesdhutch
>time? Or am I thinking of Traffic?
>
Gadd & Parker played in 'Stuff',a great NYC rhythm section;Traffic had Jim
Capaldi drumming until they merged w/ the Muscle Shoals rhythm section,when the
great Roger Hawkins took over the kit,and Capaldi switched to percussion.BTW,I
saw Capt. Beefheart w/ 2 drummers(Drumbo & Ed Marimba) at Ungano's in NYC in
the early '70s,Drumbo played a kit that looked to be a collection of conga
drums(2 congas for toms,tumbas(?) for bass drums;they played amazingly
intricate matching drum parts,probably dreamed up by the good Capt.
himself.There were a total of about 15 people there,w/ Ry Cooder opening the
show.
Les Hutchinson
Les Hutchinson
DD
six piece King Crimson a few years ago. (or was that dual trios?)
"Pat McDonald" <patd...@home.com> wrote in message
news:050320012121573194%patd...@home.com...
> In article <pfl8ato5iudq8d46c...@4ax.com>, Bermuda
> Schwartz <ber...@weirdal.com> wrote:
>
> > I was having a discussion with someone about bands known for using 2
> > drummers. We thought of Allman Brothers and Grateful Dead right off
> > that bat, and Zappa also used 2 drummers at times...
> >
> > But who else was known for that?
> >
> > Bermuda
>
> Charlie used to use 2 years ago but not anymore thank goodness!
>
> Pat
Mr. Legend
James C. Nevermann
himself to play drums, so would occasionally play a third set with
them. Listen to the "Don Ellis: Live at Fillmore" CD.
--
Jim Nevermann
[usual disclaimers]
-MIKE-
That was strictly for tax purposes. :-)
Mark Rance
>
> Genesis with Bruford and Collins....King Crimson did as well...
When was Bruford ever in Genesis?
Az hosers
>Date: 03/06/2001 4:56 PM US
>Allman Brothers
>
Nope--they have twoo drummers and a percussionist-so technically thats three!
DDSD
Mr. Legend
> Nope--they have twoo drummers and a percussionist-so technically thats
three!
oh okay, cool.
Frank Hubbell
Benjamin Jacoby wrote:
> -MIKE- <mi...@mikedrums.com> wrote:
> > The Beatles.
> > Ringo up front, air drumming. And Bernard Purdy back stage playing
> > the actual parts.
> > (:cp
>
> > -MIKE-
>
> <snort!> :-)
>
> And on a more serious note: James Brown ...Clyde and Jabo.
> In Brown's band I think he at times had as many as 4 drummers
> but usually they wouldn't all play at once. Clyde and Jabo
> did though. Those guys can make two drumsets sound like
> an octopus playing one monster kit.
>
> And yeah, the Band did have two drummers. Levon gives a fine
> speech on one of his videos about how if one drummer is
> good, two drummers are better.
Jim Keltner said he does not like playing with another drummer
because every drummer treats the time differently
Park Hubbell
Az hosers
>Date: 03/06/2001 8:44 PM
>> Nope--they have twoo drummers and a percussionist-so technically thats
>three!
Allman Bros---
But ya know...People who play percussion arent really drummers!
DDSD
gordy gale
>
> Jim Keltner said he does not like playing with another drummer
> because every drummer treats the time differently
>
Well he DID play well with Kenny Aronoff on that Michael Penn
CD.
--
Gordy Gale
DD
"gordy gale" <gord...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3AA5D9D0...@home.com...
Frank Hubbell
gordy gale wrote:
Keltner plays well in pretty much any situation . In a Modern Drummer
QandA he was complemented on his playing with Anton Fig in a two drummer deal
for the Dylan tribute, the person asked if Keltner liked playing in a two
drummer situation and his anwser was no ,"because every drummer treats time
differently".
The tubes had two drummers for a while one was Prarie Prince who
passed up Ansley Dunbars origional spot in Journey to stay with the tubes.
Then Journey went to shit when Steve Smith joined .
Park Hubbell
>
>
> --
> Gordy Gale
Bermuda Schwartz
>AND he doubled with Aronoff on Joe Cocker's 'Organic' CD.
Oh man, OBVIOUS one - Joe Cocker during Mad Dogs & Englishmen used
Jim Gordon and Jim Keltner!!
Bermuda
mbit...@goodyear.com
>I was having a discussion with someone about bands known for using 2
>drummers. We thought of Allman Brothers and Grateful Dead right off
>that bat, and Zappa also used 2 drummers at times...
>
>But who else was known for that?
>
>Bermuda
Cactus? From the dusty depths of my faded memory it seems that when I saw
them in concert they had 2 drummers. But maybe I just had double vision...
MArtog
Timing is everything.
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Trick of the Tail tour (1976?), right after Peter Gabriel left and Phil
took over singing. Because Phil's a lefty and Bruford a righty their
playing together pre-programmed fills and sections was very cool
visually as they had this mirror image thing going on stage. Some of it
was documented on the live Seconds Out.
In article <3AA58648...@pcisys.net>, Mark Rance <m...@pcisys.net>
wrote:
-MIKE-
> Ansley Dunbars origional spot in Journey to stay with the tubes. Then
> Journey went to shit when Steve Smith joined .
>
> Park Hubbell
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
LOL
Frank Hubbell
-MIKE- wrote:
Im not exactly sure what your getting at with your post, but
Steve Smith is not nearly the rock-n-roll drummer that Ansley dunbar is. While
Steve Smith may be a chops wizard, he lacks the feel to play rock-n-roll
correctly. Steve Smith spends his time dazzling drummers with his technical
proficiency at clinics and playing with bands that require a drummer with
excessive chops, Thats not Rock-n-roll and journey was a rock band. Ansley
Dunbar on the otherhand is much more versitle he played with zappa which
requires chops.He also has been a hired gun on many sucessful rock albums and
has produced some of the best rock feels on many hit songs. Steve Smith as far
as I know has not recorded with any true rock bands since journey, his feel is
too sterile to mesh with a great rock band. This comes from concentrating on
chops his entire drumming career and neglecting to concentrate on feel and
playing in the pocket. Ha
Park Hubbell
-MIKE-
>>> Park Hubbell
>> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah LOL
> Park Hubbell
Yeah whatever, Park. You obviously have some sort of strong
personal bias, here, as do I. Yet, I do not let it blind me. I
won't even go into this argument with you. Your argument is horse
hockey. But that cool. We all have our opinions and our favorites.
Still love ya, Bro. :-)
gordy gale
>
.
> Then Journey went to shit when Steve Smith joined .
Yeah, they went to from almost total obscurity to selling millions of
records (bummer) and sorry, Steve Smith PLAYS RINGS around Dunbar. Ever
listen to a Vital Transformation CD?
--
Gordy Gale
gordy gale
>
>This comes from concentrating on chops his entire drumming career and >neglecting to concentrate on feel and playing in the pocket. Ha
Dude, go get Steve Smith's drum video. Then come back and talk about
pocket and groove. Did you ever see Steve play live? You are totally OFF
THE MARK on this one.
--
Gordy Gale
-MIKE-
>>neglecting to concentrate on feel and playing in the pocket. Ha
>
>
>
> Dude, go get Steve Smith's drum video. Then come back and talk about
> pocket and groove. Did you ever see Steve play live? You are totally OFF
> THE MARK on this one.
I'm glad someone else got in on this. Thanks, Gordo. :-)
Oh, yeah. Where's Dunbar on MD's Most Influential list?
Pat McDonald
<gord...@home.com> wrote:
I have to jump in the middle of this one. Literally. I agree 100%
that Steve is a MUCH better drummer than Aynsley. When he joined
Journey, they took off. There's something to be said for his
contribution. The huge hits they had were hits in large part because
of the creative parts he came up with and the energy he injected into
the band. Tunes like "Don't Stop Believin'" or "Chain Reaction" or
"After The Fall" are classics because of his input.
On the other hand, I have to say that as I get older I still appreciate
Steve dedication to the craft, his discipline in continuing to shed and
improve, and his overall contirbution to drumming. But I have reached
a point where his playing just sounds edgy and hurried and tense to me.
I don't dig his "groove" at all. He sounds like someone who is taking
little half breaths and never completely exhaling. Just a little too
"on top" for me. He's a phenomenal technician but he just sounds too
"white" to me.
Just my 2 cents...
Pat
George Lawrence
Bermuda Schwartz wrote:
>
> I was having a discussion with someone about bands known for using 2
> drummers. We thought of Allman Brothers and Grateful Dead right off
> that bat, and Zappa also used 2 drummers at times...
>
> But who else was known for that?
>
> Bermuda
--
George Lawrence, Nashville TN
Drumset artist, teacher, author
http://www.drumguru.com
"Just play dumb" - Jeff Porcaro
Robert Schuh
Steve Smith can't swing from a rope either. When you look up "white" in the
dictionary, there is a photo of Steve Smith.
--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche
"The meek shall inherit nothing" - Zappa
Robert Schuh
I would rather watch paint dry than listen to ANYTHING with Steve Smith on
it. He is less grooving and more white than Weckl. He is REALLY a joke
playing Jazz. He really ought to keep talking about being a Jazz cat at
all.
gordy gale
>
> I would rather watch paint dry than listen to ANYTHING with Steve Smith on
> it. He is less grooving and more white than Weckl. He is REALLY a joke
> playing Jazz. He really ought to keep talking about being a Jazz cat at
> all.
>
> --
Schuh...maybe you should look into being a music critic, as you can't
play, your opinions are worthless, and you are mad at the world. You
have all the qualifications. Yawn.
--
Gordy Gale
George Lawrence
jazzer. More proof that Schuh don't have a clue.
--
gordy gale
>
> Steve Smith accomplished a major feat. Made it as a rocker and as a
> jazzer. More proof that Schuh don't have a clue.
>
> >
> > Robert Schuh wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I would rather watch paint dry than listen to ANYTHING with Steve Smith on
> > > it. He is less grooving and more white than Weckl. He is REALLY a joke
> > > playing Jazz. He really ought to keep talking about being a Jazz cat at
> > > all.
> > >
> > > --
> gordy gale wrote:
> > Schuh...maybe you should look into being a music critic, as you can't
> > play, your opinions are worthless, and you are mad at the world. You
> > have all the qualifications. Yawn.
> >
> > --
> > Gordy Gale
BTW, Weckl played on Monday with Alan Pasqua (Tony Williams Lifetime),
and Dave Carpenter (Alan Holdsworth) . I guess they don't KNOW that
"Dave can't swing..." Just go away Rob, you have no friends left here
anymore.
--
Gordy Gale
Frank Hubbell
-MIKE- wrote:
Steve Smith said he used a click on the
first Journey album (he didnt comment on the rest). Why use a click if you
have a great pocket and groove? I have heard him play on journey albums and
the journey live album (he did not get in a pocket on that album). If you want
to hear true pocket and groove playing for rock then listen to: Bonham, Ian
paice ,Mitch Mitchel,Charlie Watts, AC/DC Phil Rudd,Cozy Powel, Dunbar,Russ
Kunkel, Jim Keltner and many others, but dont include Smith.
While Smith came up with some interesting
rock beats he IS NOT a pocket rock drummer.
As far as MD's list, the readers vote on this and most of the
readers are not full time professonal drummers they are people who( for the
most part) are drummers who are more impressed by technical prowess than
musicianship when it comes to picking their favorite drummers. MD's list is
biased bullshit.
Are you going to let MD tell you who the best
drummers are, don't you have your own opinions?
"Keep things as simple as
possible yet no simpler"
EINSTEIN
Park Hubbell
Lee Jones
"-MIKE-" <mi...@mikedrums.com> wrote in <kofp6.18440$YF4.3770993
@news1.rdc1.tn.home.com>:
>> Didn't Willie Nelson use two drummers way back when?
>
>That was strictly for tax purposes. :-)
>
>
gordy gale
>
> Why use a click if you have a great pocket and groove?
Do I REALLY have to explain to this young man WHY one uses a click track
in the studio, and why that does NOT mean you have no pocket? That's as
naive as saying why use monitors on stage, do you HAVE to hear, I
thought you KNEW the material? Or why do you mic your drums? Do you have
weak wrists?
--
Gordy Gale
George Lawrence
Most pro drummers who do recording sessions regularly know how to play
with a click. It has been a part of the pop recording process for forty
years now. Playing to a click usually has nothing to do with the
drummer's ability to play in the pocket or in time, particularly with
the advent of computer recording and editing programs like pro tools
which are easier to use if the drummer is playing in time with the tempo
on the computer. To say that any drummer doesn't have a pocket because
he plays with a click is a naive statement.
>
> Steve Smith said he used a click on the
> first Journey album (he didnt comment on the rest). Why use a click if you
> have a great pocket and groove? I have heard him play on journey albums and
> the journey live album (he did not get in a pocket on that album). If you want
> to hear true pocket and groove playing for rock then listen to: Bonham, Ian
> paice ,Mitch Mitchel,Charlie Watts, AC/DC Phil Rudd,Cozy Powel, Dunbar,Russ
> Kunkel, Jim Keltner and many others, but dont include Smith.
>
> While Smith came up with some interesting
> rock beats he IS NOT a pocket rock drummer.
>
> As far as MD's list, the readers vote on this and most of the
> readers are not full time professonal drummers they are people who( for the
> most part) are drummers who are more impressed by technical prowess than
> musicianship when it comes to picking their favorite drummers. MD's list is
> biased bullshit.
>
> Are you going to let MD tell you who the best
> drummers are, don't you have your own opinions?
>
> "Keep things as simple as
> possible yet no simpler"
>
> EINSTEIN
>
> Park Hubbell
--
Frank Hubbell
Pat McDonald wrote:
> In article <3AA6B74D...@home.com>, gordy gale
> <gord...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > Park Hubbell wrote:
> > >
> > >This comes from concentrating on chops his entire drumming career and
> > >>neglecting to concentrate on feel and playing in the pocket. Ha
> >
> >
> >
> > Dude, go get Steve Smith's drum video. Then come back and talk about
> > pocket and groove. Did you ever see Steve play live? You are totally OFF
> > THE MARK on this one.
>
> I have to jump in the middle of this one. Literally. I agree 100%
> that Steve is a MUCH better drummer than Aynsley.
Ansley is responsible for more hit songs than Steve is. Liseten to
the starship album with Ansley on it ,songs like Jane , Familar stranger etc.
Ansley also recorded the only two hits White Snake ever saw. Ansley has been
called in as a hired gun to record many hits (steve has not). Also remember
Ansley was with Zappa for a while. You made the statement that Steve is a MUCH
better drummer than Ansley . In what ways?
> When he joined
> Journey, they took off. There's something to be said for his
> contribution. The huge hits they had were hits in large part because
> of the creative parts he came up with and the energy he injected into
> the band. Tunes like "Don't Stop Believin'" or "Chain Reaction" or
> "After The Fall" are classics because of his input.
I will agree Steve came up with some great parts, "Dont Stop
Believin" had great lyrics which were as crutial if not more to making that
song a hit as Steve's drum part was. Also whose to say that Journey couldn't
have taken off with Ansley he quit journey he wasn't fired.
>
>
> On the other hand, I have to say that as I get older I still appreciate
> Steve dedication to the craft, his discipline in continuing to shed and
> improve, and his overall contirbution to drumming. But I have reached
> a point where his playing just sounds edgy and hurried and tense to me.
> I don't dig his "groove" at all.
Were in total agreement here.
> He sounds like someone who is taking
> little half breaths and never completely exhaling. Just a little too
> "on top" for me. He's a phenomenal technician but he just sounds too
> "white" to me.
Personally I prefer the words sterile and souless to white, only
because there many soulful white guys around.
>
Park Hubbell
-MIKE-
> comment on the rest). Why use a click if you have a great pocket and
> groove? I have heard him play on journey albums and the journey live album
> (he did not get in a pocket on that album).
Gordy and George schooled you well enough on this, but I will add
some more.
Using a click track has nothing to do with pocket, or groove. It is
used to keep the song at a steady tempo from beginning to end.
Tempo has little to do with a good pocket.
For example, I can give the same song, at the same tempo, 3
different relative "pockets." I can play out in front of the beat,
or back behind the beat, or right on it-- machine like. Very rarely
will someone call playing right on the beat to be in the pocket.
It's usually the guys who are out front or behind who are said to
have a (insert adjective here) pocket.
Of the guys you mentioned, I think Watts, Keltner, and maybe Rudd
are the guys who sit back with their back beats. Watts was really
cool at this on early stones stuff. (Other's chime in, here, if I
have this wrong.)
I think Mitchel and Bonham would go in front or behind, depending on
the mood of the song. I think sometimes Bonham would be out front
on kick and behind on snare. I think anyone with a blues background
will automatically have a tendency to sit back. They were both so
liquorer up most of the time, I don't think they had any idea which
way the were sitting. :-)
Because Steve was so schooled, he might have had a tendency to play
right on the beat, giving the impression that he had no pocket. I
won't argue that, compared to the Dunsbar albums, Smith "had no
pocket," by your definition. But I will go one step further and say
that much of Dunsbar's playing with Journey was downright sloppy. I
wouldn't be surprised in the least if Dunsbar's "sloppy" (as I am
calling it) playing is what led manager Herbie Herbert to hire
Smith, and possibly have some input on the click being used in the
studio.
Herbie was the driving force behind Journey's move towards "radio
friendly" music, in the first place. He, very much, led the
direction and vision of the group for the first six or seven albums.
He's the one who formed the band, from the get-go. (And I knew all
this, before I saw VH1's Behind the Music of Journey, thank you very
much.) :-)
> If you want to hear true
> pocket and groove playing for rock then listen to: Bonham, Ian paice
> ,Mitch Mitchel,Charlie Watts, AC/DC Phil Rudd,Cozy Powel, Dunbar,Russ
> Kunkel, Jim Keltner and many others, but dont include Smith.
I'm not going to argue this with you. You don't like Smith, period.
> While Smith came up with some interesting rock beats he IS NOT a pocket
> rock drummer.
That's you opinion and I see it as a valid one. See above.
> As far as MD's list, the readers vote on this and most of the readers are
> not full time professonal drummers they are people who( for the most part)
> are drummers who are more impressed by technical prowess than musicianship
> when it comes to picking their favorite drummers. MD's list is biased
> bullshit.
I'm pretty sure that their "Most Influential" list was not a
readers' poll.
> Are you going to let MD tell you who the best
> drummers are, don't you have your own opinions?
Absolutely not. I hope you don't. :-)
-MIKE-
--
Hibi Shoshon -- 'mind of a beginner'
-MIKE-
> starship album with Ansley on it ,songs like Jane , Familar stranger etc.
> Ansley also recorded the only two hits White Snake ever saw. Ansley has
> been called in as a hired gun to record many hits (steve has not).
This is where your blatant dislike (for reasons which aren't clear)
have been made apparent by you ignorance.
Steve has been a "hired gun" on many hits/albums. He was asked to
play on Bryan Adams' song, "Heaven," specifically for his signature
playing on the "power ballad." He was a hired gun for Mariah
Carey's, "Emotions" album, and Dweezil Zappa, to note just a few of
his many album credits, besides his own work.
> Also
> remember Ansley was with Zappa for a while. You made the statement that
> Steve is a MUCH better drummer than Ansley . In what ways?
Better is subjective. It's stupid to argue that.
>> When he joined Journey, they took off. There's something to be said for
>> his contribution. The huge hits they had were hits in large part
>> because of the creative parts he came up with and the energy he injected
>> into the band. Tunes like "Don't Stop Believin'" or "Chain Reaction" or
>> "After The Fall" are classics because of his input.
> I will agree Steve came up with some great parts, "Dont Stop Believin" had
> great lyrics which were as crutial if not more to making that song a hit
> as Steve's drum part was. Also whose to say that Journey couldn't have
> taken off with Ansley he quit journey he wasn't fired.
Steve had patented drums parts that were "new" for that time. They
were a welcome, creative, innovative, change in the climate of pop
drumming. (That is why he was voted on MD's Most Influential list.
Not because of some bias.) I can say, without bias, that Steve's
parts were much more creative than Ansley's. But that is
subjective, as well. It's a style thing. I don't think Journey
would've taken off with Ansley's playing. I think Herbie Herbert
knew that. Journey's style was changing drastically at the hands of
Herbert. If he hadn't quit, I believe he would've been fired. It's
not a matter of skill, it's a style and creative thing.
I couldn't see Neil Peart in the Stones, any more than I could see
Charlie Watts in Rush. Different people fit the bill of different
bands' styles.
Bermuda Schwartz
>Gordy and George schooled you well enough on this, but I will add
>some more.
>Using a click track has nothing to do with pocket, or groove. It is
>used to keep the song at a steady tempo from beginning to end.
It's also very common for a rhythm section to cut a song, to a click,
while smpte is being striped to one track. A keyboardist/producer may
be working on parts separately. Those parts are brought in later, and
synced to the smpte track. Assuming the live players followed the
click well in the first place, everything will sound together after
the fact.
Bermuda
George Lawrence
> to hear true pocket and groove playing for rock then listen to: Bonham, Ian
> paice ,Mitch Mitchel,Charlie Watts, AC/DC Phil Rudd,Cozy Powel, Dunbar,Russ
> Kunkel, Jim Keltner and many others, but dont include Smith.
>
>
this is not to say you are wrong, just my opinion, but I've got to
disagree about Mitch and several others. He is a very driving player and
he had a great feel, but he did not have a "pocket". At times he was
even a very frenzied player.
Charlie Watts is not a pocket player. He's all over the place, in a
compelling way.
I don't consider Keltner a pocket player and he's one of my favorite
drummers. i try to emulate his fluid ideas. His groove is very wide and
very loose, playing around the strong pulse that he establishes, but he
does not "put it in the pocket" and is not an r&b drummer per se.
Your leaning toward rock players as pocket players is a little strange
to me. Then again I have an R&B bias.
This characterization of Mitch as a pocket player, and Steve Smith as
not makes me think that the term "pocket player" begs defining. A strong
backbeat or groove is not necessarily a "pocket". One definition I've
read describes "in the pocket" as playing a repetitive groove so
effectively that the notes seem to sit deeply and perfectly with the
rhythm. Pocket does not mean perfect tempo either. There are lots of
famous pocket players who ended up in a song at a different bpm or
rushed or dragged a section because it felt right at the time.I've made
my goal in drumming a study of pocket players. The pocket comes from r&b
roots and is typically, at its' simplest, used to describe r&b
influenced players who place the downbeat and backbeat "in the pocket".
The pocket drummer sets the feel so authoritatively and compelling
consistently that it will literally transform the other players in the
band and lift their spirits, inspiring them to play. There is also
somewhat of an undescribeable feeling to their playing, that special
something that makes the other players on stage not worry about the
timekeeping, that makes them feel that the "groove" has been established
as almost an separate entity by these intuitive drummers. A pocket
drummer plays American backbeat music the way a great female dancer with
a beautiful body dances to an r&b tune, with a swagger, or a hypnotic
bump and grind, or a fluid move , whatever the music dictates
stylistically but always with the feet hitting the floor in a steady
hypnotic flow.
Every pocket player's feel and personality is different but the ability
to snap the backbeat into the same spot every time is the same. I can't
remember whether it was Steve Perry's or Journey's hits that Larrie
Londin played on, but Larry was the epitome of a pocket player. His
groove was so compelling that it would turn every head in the house
after the intro fill.
Very little rock music has pocket to my ears. Led Zep had a motown
influenced rhythm section. Their funk to rock ratio was funk heavy. ACDC
is an enigma. The only band to take what Chuck Berry did, do it with
stringently straight eighths and with a pocket drummer. Garibaldi was a
pocket drummer in the early days of Tower of Power (Bump City album).
Russ Kunkel, yes. Ainsley Dunbar, no. Al Jackson, Roger Hawkins, Freddie
White, Steve Gadd, Andy Newmark, Greg Errico, Jeff Porcaro, Ed Greene,
Paul Humphrey, Stix Hooper, John Robinson, James Stroud, all of James
Brown's drummers, Ray Charles early drummers, Bonnie Raitt's drummers,
etc., etc. And of course the premier pocket players were Benny Benjamin
and Bernard Purdie IMHO.
George Lawrence, Nashville TN.
BTW there is a good book aout about playing with a click and feel and
time and pocket, etc. It's "Time And Drumming" by Lorne Entress
published by Mel Bay.
Drums up
>compelling way.
all over the place? that's more of a description that i was link with Mitchell
instead of Watts.
>Very little rock music has pocket to my ears. Led Zep had a motown
>influenced rhythm section. Their funk to rock ratio was funk heavy. ACDC
>is an enigma. The only band to take what Chuck Berry did, do it with
>stringently straight eighths and with a pocket drummer. Garibaldi was a
>pocket drummer in the early days of Tower of Power (Bump City album).
>Russ Kunkel, yes. Ainsley Dunbar, no. Al Jackson, Roger Hawkins, Freddie
>White, Steve Gadd, Andy Newmark, Greg Errico, Jeff Porcaro, Ed Greene,
>Paul Humphrey, Stix Hooper, John Robinson, James Stroud, all of James
>Brown's drummers, Ray Charles early drummers, Bonnie Raitt's drummers,
>etc., etc. And of course the premier pocket players were Benny Benjamin
>and Bernard Purdie IMHO.
>George Lawrence, Nashville TN.
yeah, Purdie is the epitome of a pocket player, i was wondering when you'd get
to him!
George Lawrence
kinetic, falling forward.
--
George Lawrence, Nashville TN
Frank Hubbell
George Lawrence wrote:
> Most pro drummers who do recording sessions regularly know how to play
> with a click. It has been a part of the pop recording process for forty
> years now.
Who used clicks before the 70's I'm curious about this?
> Playing to a click usually has nothing to do with the
> drummer's ability to play in the pocket or in time, particularly with
> the advent of computer recording and editing programs like pro tools
> which are easier to use if the drummer is playing in time with the tempo
> on the computer. To say that any drummer doesn't have a pocket because
> he plays with a click is a naive statement.
First let me say I never actually made that statement. Im sure Keltner
has played to clicks and we all know he has a pocket. Clicks take part of the soul
out of a recording I have recorded with clicks and with out, if you have good time
the recordings without clicks are alot more soulful and human. Computer recording is
musics greatest ememy. Humans arent perfect and we shouldnt be playing along with
machines that are. Clicks started when disco came out. The best recordings are live
without a click. Using a click is a crutch. Also its too easy to use a click anyone
can play to a click after a short learning curve.
Park Hubbell
-MIKE-
> to snap the backbeat into the same spot every time is the same. I can't
> remember whether it was Steve Perry's or Journey's hits that Larrie
> Londin played on, but Larry was the epitome of a pocket player. His
> groove was so compelling that it would turn every head in the house
> after the intro fill.
>
It was Steve. Steve's favorite singer was Sam Cooke. You can hear
Sam all over the place in Steve's singing. Steve loved R&B and
Motown, so he, of course, hired Larrie.
George Lawrence
Frank Hubbell wrote:
>
> George Lawrence wrote:
>
> > Most pro drummers who do recording sessions regularly know how to play
> > with a click. It has been a part of the pop recording process for forty
> > years now.
>
> Who used clicks before the 70's I'm curious about this?
>
> > Playing to a click usually has nothing to do with the
> > drummer's ability to play in the pocket or in time, particularly with
> > the advent of computer recording and editing programs like pro tools
> > which are easier to use if the drummer is playing in time with the tempo
> > on the computer. To say that any drummer doesn't have a pocket because
> > he plays with a click is a naive statement.
>
> First let me say I never actually made that statement. Im sure Keltner
> has played to clicks and we all know he has a pocket. Clicks take part of the soul
> out of a recording
Clicks do not take the soul out of recordings. Drummers who can't play
with clicks do :-) Sorry, cheap shot.
I have recorded with clicks and with out, if you have good time
> the recordings without clicks are alot more soulful and human. Computer recording is
> musics greatest ememy. Humans arent perfect and we shouldnt be playing along with
> machines that are.
A computer is just a machine, like a tape recorder. Almost all my album
session are recorded on hard disc now as well as on 2" tape. Maybe you
are talking about producers who use editing programs to quantize the
drums to sound like a drum machine. That is soul-less, yes. The
advancements of Pro tools and other similar recording and editing
programs now is the same advancements like multi tracking in the
fifties and sixties. Just more ways to manipulate sound.
Clicks started when disco came out.
Nope, before disco. Clicks were used in pop music at least as early as
the 60's if not before. That's when the first beat boxes (drum machines)
came out. At least I was using them before disco.
The best recordings are live
> without a click. Using a click is a crutch. Also its too easy to use a click anyone
> can play to a click after a short learning curve.
No offense, but I doubt very seriously that you can accurately play with
a click just because of the grossly wrong and blanket statements you
have made, unless you are recording jazz, where the click would be ill
advised. I suspect you are young, and haven't done a lot of recording
with a major label act or producer, correct? Most pro drummers who
record pop music understand why the click is important in the recording
process for everyone concerned and would not endanger their chances of
getting hired by making such a statement. The other players like the
click too. An experienced drummer can play the same way with the click
or without it. I do it daily both ways. You obviously haven't done your
pop recording homework if you think that it's an issue. Most major pop
recordings after 1960 were done with a metronome AFAIK.
I suggest you try recording yourself with a click, burying each click
while maintaining a natural feel, then preach no click. I find that the
drummers who hold your view don't really know how to play with a click.
No, not just anyone can play with a click,. I know too many who can't.
The click isn't a crutch, it's just a tool. Many producers and writers
and artists want metronomic time some times and some times they want
the time to be looser. You have to be able to do both. No, all music
shouldn't be cut with a click. After thirty years of recording, I can
"double the numbers" on a tape machine because of my constant use of a
click. Metronomic time is a standard part of our art/science/trade.
Rant mode off.
Rev. Poindexter
<drum...@home.com> wrote:
> Steve Smith accomplished a major feat. Made it as a rocker and as a
> jazzer.
And he's a nice guy besides.
RP
Frank Hubbell
gordy gale wrote:
> Park Hubbell wrote:
> >
>
> > Why use a click if you have a great pocket and groove?
>
> Do I REALLY have to explain to this young man WHY one uses a click track
> in the studio,
> Yes Please.
> and why that does NOT mean you have no pocket?
If you read more carefully you will realize I never said that.
> That's as
> naive as saying why use monitors on stage, do you HAVE to hear, I
> thought you KNEW the material? Or why do you mic your drums? Do you have
> weak wrists?
>
> --
> Gordy Gale
Your analogies are weak illogical and
childish . I would assume you use a click because the band does'nt sound
tight without it. Or becaused things are sequenced, I personally think
sequenceing is bullshit. Or because someone wants the time to be perfect,
and unatural. All rap uses clicks. Ricky Maritin uses clicks, Cher uses
clicks(three great reasons not to use clicks). Clicks rob music of a true
human characteristic, imperfection.
How did all the great recordings in the past ever happen without clicks?
Rolling Stones, Led Zepplin, Louie Armstrong , Coltrane, Dylan and countless
others. When you play using a click youre playing with a drum machine.
Park Hubbell
George Lawrence
>
> Your analogies are weak illogical and
> childish . I would assume you use a click because the band does'nt sound
> tight without it. Or becaused things are sequenced, I personally think
> sequenceing is bullshit. Or because someone wants the time to be perfect,
> and unatural. All rap uses clicks. Ricky Maritin uses clicks, Cher uses
> clicks(three great reasons not to use clicks). Clicks rob music of a true
> human characteristic, imperfection.
>
> How did all the great recordings in the past ever happen without clicks?
> Rolling Stones, Led Zepplin, Louie Armstrong , Coltrane, Dylan and countless
> others. When you play using a click youre playing with a drum machine.
>
> Park Hubbell
Park, remind me not to call you sub my sessions :-)
Rev. Poindexter
<scrub...@usa.net> wrote:
> Paralleled by only one other song:
>
> Hokus Pokus by Focus!
Makes me feel like yodelling right now... ;)
RP
-MIKE-
-MIKE-
--
Backstreet boys are like a bad cheese-- not only do they stink,
they're ready for the garbage can right now!
--
http://mikedrums.com
mi...@mikedrums.com or hit 'reply'
gordy gale
most of your argument comes from YOU reading about and making
observations about OTHERS. Have you ever recorded an album? Have you
ever played live or in the studio SUCCESSFULLY with a click track? Well
I have. Wanna see who I've played with? Go look at my website. Sorry to
turn this into a pissing contest, but so far, you seem to lack the
credentials to have such an opinion, or at least one that should be
taken seriously. But it's ok if you want to think Ansley is better than
Steve, or anyone who uses sequencers sux, or using a click for ANY
reason is a bad idea. BTW, want a great example of why you SHOULD use a
click? Go back and listen to "Avalon" by Roxy Music with Andy Newmark on
drums. No sequencers, but the time of all of the players SOUNDS as
perfect as one without losing the feel.
Gordy Gale
http://www.gordygale.com
>> > Park Hubbell wrote:
> >
> > > Why use a click if you have a great pocket and groove?
> gordy gale wrote:
> >
> > Do I REALLY have to explain to this young man WHY one uses a click track
> > in the studio,
>
> > Park Hubbell wrote:
> > Yes Please.
> gordy gale wrote:
>
> > and why that does NOT mean you have no pocket?
> > Park Hubbell wrote:
>
> If you read more carefully you will realize I never said that.
> gordy gale wrote:
>
> > That's as
> > naive as saying why use monitors on stage, do you HAVE to hear, I
> > thought you KNEW the material? Or why do you mic your drums? Do you have
> > weak wrists?
> >
> > --
Frank Hubbell
George Lawrence wrote:
> Frank Hubbell wrote:
> >
> > George Lawrence wrote:
> >
> > > Most pro drummers who do recording sessions regularly know how to play
> > > with a click. It has been a part of the pop recording process for forty
> > > years now.
> >
> > Who used clicks before the 70's I'm curious about this?
> >
> > > Playing to a click usually has nothing to do with the
> > > drummer's ability to play in the pocket or in time, particularly with
> > > the advent of computer recording and editing programs like pro tools
> > > which are easier to use if the drummer is playing in time with the tempo
> > > on the computer. To say that any drummer doesn't have a pocket because
> > > he plays with a click is a naive statement.
> >
> > First let me say I never actually made that statement. Im sure Keltner
> > has played to clicks and we all know he has a pocket. Clicks take part of the soul
> > out of a recording
>
> Clicks do not take the soul out of recordings. Drummers who can't play
> with clicks do :-) Sorry, cheap shot.
I disagree when ever there is a machine involved soul is lost. Mabye you dont have
enough soul to recognize this: sorry, cheap shot :-)
>
>
> I have recorded with clicks and with out, if you have good time
> > the recordings without clicks are alot more soulful and human. Computer recording is
> > musics greatest ememy. Humans arent perfect and we shouldnt be playing along with
> > machines that are.
>
> A computer is just a machine, like a tape recorder. Almost all my album
> session are recorded on hard disc now as well as on 2" tape. Maybe you
> are talking about producers who use editing programs to quantize the
> drums to sound like a drum machine. That is soul-less, yes. The
> advancements of Pro tools and other similar recording and editing
> programs now is the same advancements like multi tracking in the
> fifties and sixties. Just more ways to manipulate sound.
>
> Clicks started when disco came out.
>
> Nope, before disco. Clicks were used in pop music at least as early as
> the 60's if not before. That's when the first beat boxes (drum machines)
> came out. At least I was using them before disco.
>
> The best recordings are live
> > without a click. Using a click is a crutch. Also its too easy to use a click anyone
> > can play to a click after a short learning curve.
>
> No offense, but I doubt very seriously that you can accurately play with
> a click
You are very wrong lots of gigs I get are played using clicks I do prefer a visual
click to an audible one though
> just because of the grossly wrong and blanket statements you
> have made, unless you are recording jazz, where the click would be ill
> advised. I suspect you are young, and haven't done a lot of recording
> with a major label act or producer, correct?
I'm 38 and the majority of what I play is swing and small combo jazz, and
no I havent done alot of major label pop stuff . But I can play well with a click . I was
weened on rock -n roll.
> Most pro drummers who
> record pop
I havent recorded any true pop.
> music understand why the click is important in the recording
> process for everyone concerned and would not endanger their chances of
> getting hired by making such a statement. The other players like the
> click too.
> An experienced drummer can play the same way with the click
> or without it.
Thats a matter of opinion
> I do it daily both ways
thats a matter of perception
> . You obviously haven't done your
> pop recording homework if you think that it's an issue. Most major pop
> recordings after 1960 were done with a metronome AFAIK.
True- pop I will admit is not my bag.
> I suggest you try recording yourself with a click, burying each click
> while maintaining a natural feel, then preach no click.
I can easily bury a click with a natural feel, even when playing swing.
> I find that the
> drummers who hold your view don't really know how to play with a click.
well you would be wrong in my case. I put in many hours with the old metronome.
And played along to many pop songs (which according to you were recorded using a click) in
my early youth.
>
> No, not just anyone can play with a click,. I know too many who can't.
> The click isn't a crutch, it's just a tool. Many producers and writers
> and artists want metronomic time some times and some times they want
> the time to be looser. You have to be able to do both
I can very closely emulate metronomic time without a click. My internal sense of
time is very strong because I shedded alot more on playing time(from an early age) than I
did on my chops.
> . No, all music
> shouldn't be cut with a click. After thirty years of recording, I can
> "double the numbers" on a tape machine because of my constant use of a
> click
I think I've played too much jazz and blues to have a positive attiude towards
clicks.
> . Metronomic time is a standard part of our art/science/trade.
This is not true of all types of music (watch the blanket statements)
> Park Hubbell
George Lawrence
>I disagree when ever there is a machine involved soul is lost. Mabye you dont have
> enough soul to recognize this: sorry, cheap shot :-)
Go check out the album cut links on my web site. I record soul music and
blues with some well known soul and blues artists.
> I'm 38 and the majority of what I play is swing and small combo jazz, and
> no I havent done alot of major label pop stuff .
AHA! :-)
GL
Stikit
<fh...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Your analogies are weak illogical and
> childish . I would assume you use a click because the band does'nt sound
> tight without it. Or becaused things are sequenced, I personally think
> sequenceing is bullshit. Or because someone wants the time to be perfect,
> and unatural. All rap uses clicks. Ricky Maritin uses clicks, Cher uses
> clicks(three great reasons not to use clicks). Clicks rob music of a true
> human characteristic, imperfection.
>
> How did all the great recordings in the past ever happen without clicks?
> Rolling Stones, Led Zepplin, Louie Armstrong , Coltrane, Dylan and countless
> others. When you play using a click youre playing with a drum machine.
>
> Park Hubbell
I'm tending to agree 100% with George's synopsis of your experience in
the business. Like them or not, click tracks are here to stay.
Keep up this attitude and I can assure you, your phone won't ring.
Pat
Stikit
<fh...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> You are very wrong lots of gigs I get are played using clicks I do
> prefer a visual
> click to an audible one though
>
> I'm 38 and the majority of what I play is swing and small
> combo jazz, and
> no I havent done alot of major label pop stuff . But I can play well with a
> click . I was
> weened on rock -n roll.
>
> I havent recorded any true pop.
>
>
> > An experienced drummer can play the same way with the click
> > or without it.
>
> Thats a matter of opinion
>
> > I do it daily both ways
>
> thats a matter of perception
>
> > . You obviously haven't done your
> > pop recording homework if you think that it's an issue. Most major pop
> > recordings after 1960 were done with a metronome AFAIK.
>
> True- pop I will admit is not my bag.
>
>
> I can easily bury a click with a natural feel, even when playing
> swing.
>
> well you would be wrong in my case. I put in many hours with the old
> metronome.
> And played along to many pop songs (which according to you were recorded
> using a click) in
> my early youth.
>
> I can very closely emulate metronomic time without a click. My
> internal sense of
> time is very strong because I shedded alot more on playing time(from an early
> age) than I
> did on my chops.
>
> I think I've played too much jazz and blues to have a positive
> attiude towards
> clicks.
>
> This is not true of all types of music (watch the blanket statements)
>
> > Park Hubbell
> >
Ahhh.. the truth comes out. You're jazz cat. It all makes sense
to me now. From where you're sitting I can see exactly why you
don't like them. When I play straight ahead, I'd rather have a root
canal than have to use a click. It just doesn't work. But when I'm
doing pop work in a studio or playing live with a perc loop I would
prefer to have one. It makes it MUCH easier for everyone to do their
overdubs after the rhythm tracks are down or allows me to easily stay
in sync with the tracks. Pop stuff is a whole different world than
straight ahead. I guess the perspective makes sense now that I know
where your muse lives.
Pat
Frank Hubbell
gordy gale wrote:
> Park...ok you don't like my analogies, no problem. But seems to me that
> most of your argument comes from YOU reading about and making
> observations about OTHERS. Have you ever recorded an album?
Yes
> Have you
> ever played live or in the studio SUCCESSFULLY with a click track?
Yes
> Well
> I have. Wanna see who I've played with?
Never heard of any of the the artists you made records with or worked with
except for Edgar Winter. You mimed a song with joe cocker? Your hurt'in if you
have to list that as one of your credits, thats egotistical bullshit.
Whats up with your obsession about your hair?
> Go look at my website.
I did its very egotistical.
> Sorry
Yes you are!
>
> to
> turn this into a pissing contest, but so far, you seem to lack the
> credentials
I have made a good living playing drums for 25 years. Hard Rock , Blues,
Swing, Small combo Jazz, 4/4Dixieland Jazz. I,ve worked with some elder Jazz
players that would dwarf every one you worked with or will ever work with.
> to have such an opinion, or at least one that should be
> taken seriously
Now your the judge of what should be taken seriously in this group. Maybe you
should be you should be, your sure are accomplished at taking your hair doos
extreemly seriously.
> .
I dont care what you think about me.
> But it's ok if you want to think Ansley is better than
> Steve
Do you have a crush on steve gordy.
> , or anyone who uses sequencer sux
Thats not what I said I said sequencers are bullshit. Work on your reading
comprehention gordy.
> , or using a click for ANYreason is a bad idea
I like to keep things as natural as possible when I perform thats why I dislike
clicks there not organic.
> . BTW, want a great example of why you SHOULD use aclick? Go back and listen to
> "Avalon" by Roxy Music with Andy Newmark ondrums. No sequencers, but the time of
> all of the players SOUNDS as perfect as one without losing the feel.
I never liked roxy music, Andy Newmark is a great drummer he killed with Sly
Stone without a click.
>
Park Hubbell
Anthony Giampa
<<Charlie used to use 2 years ago but not anymore thank goodness!
>>
Hmm... the whole thing seems suspicious to me!! Pat, you own a gun? =)
--
-- Impe...@vsccs.com
Anthony Giampa; Orange County CA: Rookie Drummer and Drum Hobbyist
Arsenal: Mid 1960's Ludwig and 2000 Premier Cabria
See them at: http://www.geocities.com/imperiai2
And remember: Viva Los Straitjackets!
Anthony Giampa
of all time, but I think Dick Dale used to use two drummers in like the mid
90's when he started recording again.
gordy gale
BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH
PLONK...
--
Gordy Gale
Aaron Draper
system?
--
Aaron Draper
Proud to be American
Proud to play American
Frank Hubbell wrote in message >You mimed a song with joe cocker? Your
hurt'in if you
>have to list that as one of your credits, thats egotistical bullshit.
> Whats up with your obsession about your hair?
>
>> Go look at my website.
>
>I did its very egotistical.
>
>
>
>
>> Sorry
>
> Yes you are!
>
>>
>
>
>
>> to
>> turn this into a pissing contest, but so far, you seem to lack the
>> credentials
>
> I have made a good living playing drums for 25 years. Hard Rock ,
Blues,
>Swing, Small combo Jazz, 4/4Dixieland Jazz. I,ve worked with some elder
Jazz
>players that would dwarf every one you worked with or will ever work with.
>
Maybe you
>should be you should be, your sure are accomplished at taking your hair
doos
>extreemly seriously.
>
>> .
>
> I dont care what you think about me.
>
>> But it's ok if you want to think Ansley is better than
>> Steve
>
>Do you have a crush on steve gordy.
>
>
>> , or anyone who uses sequencer sux
>
> Thats not what I said I said sequencers are bullshit. Work on your
reading
>comprehention gordy.
>
>
> Park Hubbell
George Lawrence
> I never liked roxy music, Andy Newmark is a great drummer he killed with Sly
> Stone without a click.
Sorry, Park, that's wrong. You picked THE evidence that will close this
case. Andy is THE KING of playing with a click. The "Fresh" album by Sly
Stone is the only Sly album he played on. Not only did he play with a
click on every song on that record (an old beat box), but they left the
drum machine in the mix on many of the songs. That drum machine is
bubbling all over that record. I've talked to Andy about that record.
Who are these jazz players you've played with?
--
George Lawrence, Nashville TN
Drumset artist, teacher, author
George Lawrence
Frank Hubbell wrote:
>
> Never heard of any of the the artists you made records with or worked with
> except for Edgar Winter.
You've never heard of Bonnie Bramlett, Buzz Feiten, Nicky Hopkins, Mark
Isahm or Billy Sheehan?
gordy gale
>
> Gordy, can Park pencil you in as a "no" on his new bass drum muffling
> system?
I guess he got mad at me cause I used to have a hair style similar to
Ansley Dunbar when he was with the Turtles.
>
--
Gordy Gale