Why Zildjains Suck, Sabians aren't Much Better
JOHN M. FREJIK
Hi
This Is My Story On Why Zildjians Suck. First The Cost If You Don't Buy at
least an "A" You Are Getting Shit With The Zildjian Logo On It. Second of
All Zildjian says "Every Cymbal Sounds Different" Its True Because their
not constant with there formula's and how they're making them. Lets say you
buy a crash..you love how it sound...6 months later you want another one
that sounds the same..You will never find it. Finally The Prices Of Them
never go down, but they keep buying cheaper materials and giving them to
you. And What The hell is a dry cymbal. All they do is let them lay in the
dirt for a while.
Now If You want a REAL Cymbal buy Some Paiste Sound Formula Or 2002 you
cant lose. They all sound the same. so you don't have to try them all out.
If you dont like it just try a different type (med to Dark etc.) And The
402's They are cheaper then hell I bought a 20 in 402 ride it is silver not
bronze it sounds better then anything you will ever buy from zildjian
Mike
doct...@juno.com
austen's dad nick
In <01bc8e20$b39f7200$ee41d2ce@shipmate> "JOHN M. FREJIK"
<ship...@pgh.net> writes:
>
>Hi
>This Is My Story On Why Zildjians Suck. First The Cost If You Don't
>Buy at least an "A" You Are Getting Shit With The Zildjian Logo On It.
>Second of All Zildjian says "Every Cymbal Sounds Different" Its True
>Because their not constant with there formula's and how they're making
>them.
thanks. that was amusing.
you may want to actually do some research on why zildjian cymbals sound
different from each other, before you make statements that cause you to
look like a complete fool.
>Lets say you buy a crash..you love how it sound...6 months later you
>want another one that sounds the same..You will never find it.
why in the world would you want 2 cymbals that sound the *same*?
>Finally The Prices Of Them never go down, but they keep buying cheaper
>materials and giving them to you.
according to?
>And What The hell is a dry cymbal. All they do is let them lay in the
>dirt for a while.
are you just _completely_ ignorant?
>
>Now If You want a REAL Cymbal buy Some Paiste Sound Formula Or 2002
>you cant lose. They all sound the same.
which, of course, is a definite plus in your book.
>o you don't have to try them all out.
>If you dont like it just try a different type (med to Dark etc.) And
>The 402's They are cheaper then hell
...in both quality and sound.
>I bought a 20 in 402 ride it is silver not bronze it sounds better
>then anything you will ever buy from zildjian
hey, mr. puntuation, next time you want to criticize a product, at
*least* learn *something* about it first, so You Don't Look Like An
Idiot.
peace,
NiCk
soulbelly.
url coming soon!!
*******************************************************************
"...herds of wild felt hogs roaming the countryside" - muffinhead
NiCk - drummer - computerer - austen's dad - all-around wuzzy guy
sit back. relax. you are in soulbelly country.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
i'm a little teapot, short and stout | _i know why i like you
here is my handle | it's 'cause of your sandals
here is my other handle | and your supper
oh crap, i'm a sugar bowl | and 'cause you're Jesus_-bl
*******************************************************************
Shawn Martin
JOHN M. FREJIK <ship...@pgh.net> wrote in article
<01bc8e20$b39f7200$ee41d2ce@shipmate>...
> Hi
> This Is My Story On Why Zildjians Suck. First The Cost If You Don't Buy
at
> least an "A" You Are Getting Shit With The Zildjian Logo On It. Second of
> All Zildjian says "Every Cymbal Sounds Different" Its True Because their
you
> buy a crash..you love how it sound...6 months later you want another one
> never go down, but they keep buying cheaper materials and giving them to
the
> dirt for a while.
>
out.
> If you dont like it just try a different type (med to Dark etc.) And The
not
> bronze it sounds better then anything you will ever buy from zildjian
This is the first time I have ever felt embarassed to be a Paiste player.
First of all bozo, have you checked the 2002 & Sound Formula prices
lately? Paiste's have always cost more than Zildjian. I wish that I
*didn't* like Paiste sometimes because they are so damn expensive. Also,
Paiste makes dry rides as well... Why am I even responding to this anyway?
--
Shawn Martin email: cr...@navix.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Crash's Supermodel Mags & Memorabilia-http://web.idirect.com/~crashmag
Affordable Website Design-http://web.idirect.com/~crashmag/webdesign.html
Patdrums
>Hi
>This Is My Story On Why Zildjians Suck. First The Cost If You Don't Buy
>at
>least an "A" You Are Getting Shit With The Zildjian Logo On It. Second of
>All Zildjian says "Every Cymbal Sounds Different" Its True Because their
>not constant with there formula's and how they're making them. Lets say
>you
>buy a crash..you love how it sound...6 months later you want another one
>that sounds the same..You will never find it. Finally The Prices Of Them
>never go down, but they keep buying cheaper materials and giving them >to
>you. And What The hell is a dry cymbal. All they do is let them lay in
the
>dirt for a while.
>Now If You want a REAL Cymbal buy Some Paiste Sound Formula Or 2002 >you
>cant lose. They all sound the same. so you don't have to try them all
out.
>If you dont like it just try a different type (med to Dark etc.) And The
>402's They are cheaper then hell I bought a 20 in 402 ride it is silver
>not
>bronze it sounds better then anything you will ever buy from zildjian
>Mike
>doct...@juno.com
Is it just me, of are some people so stupid that they are absolutely
"flame" proof? As much as I'd like to post a scathing reply to this
bonehead, I just don't think he'd get it. It's a strange world we live
in....someone should sell tickets.
Pat
Mit & Gerg
JOHN M. FREJIK wrote:
_____________________-___________-______
I must admit that this is the most ridiculous post I have read. First
of all, I don't believe that Zildjian puts their Dry ride in the dirt
for a few days. That is stupid. If you did your research, you will
find that not even two Paiste Sound Formulas sound the same. They are
within the same family, but not the SAME sound.
And What The hell is a dry cymbal.
Well if you are asking that question, why don't you tell us what the
hell "Dark Crisp Hi-Hats" are?
These are all Paiste terms:
Dark Crisp- Do they deep fry them?
Silk Crash- Cymbals woven from Silk?
Crystal Crash- These must be VERY expensive - A bit less than diamond
crashes?.
Dry Crisp Ride- Another deep fried.
Rough Ride- Sounds like a Jeep Wrangler with air-shocks
Having a considerable larger frequency range and sound potential, the
Paiste line cymbals sound less identical to each other than those of the
other series.
"With the new Paiste Sound Alloy, we brought order, we organized
things. That doesn't mean that one cymbal sounds exactly the same as
the other. They sound similar, not exactly identical," said Robert
Paiste, prior to the release of the Paiste Sound Alloy cymbals. (Sound
Formula & Paiste)
The List Price of an A.Zildjian 20" Medium Ride is $289.00
The List Price 20" Paiste Sound Formula Ride is $346.00
The List Price of a Paiste signature 20" Ride is $398.00
Now look at who is a rip off.
Patricia Mazzucco
Gee, I was really going to flame your stupid ass but, Austin's Dad Nick
did such a great job all I can do is pity you.
Lee Thompson (Zildjian believer for 25 years)
tyagi aditya
JOHN M. FREJIK (ship...@pgh.net) wrote:
: Hi
: This Is My Story On Why Zildjians Suck. First The Cost If You Don't Buy at
: least an "A" You Are Getting Shit With The Zildjian Logo On It. Second of
: All Zildjian says "Every Cymbal Sounds Different" Its True Because their
: not constant with there formula's and how they're making them. Lets say you
: buy a crash..you love how it sound...6 months later you want another one
: that sounds the same..You will never find it. Finally The Prices Of Them
: never go down, but they keep buying cheaper materials and giving them to
: you. And What The hell is a dry cymbal. All they do is let them lay in the
: dirt for a while.
:
: Now If You want a REAL Cymbal buy Some Paiste Sound Formula Or 2002 you
: cant lose. They all sound the same. so you don't have to try them all out.
: If you dont like it just try a different type (med to Dark etc.) And The
: 402's They are cheaper then hell I bought a 20 in 402 ride it is silver not
: bronze it sounds better then anything you will ever buy from zildjian
:
: Mike
: doct...@juno.com
better? I guess I will call you up when I buy my next cymbal since you have
the best ears in the world.
Johnny Morris
JOHN M. FREJIK wrote:
>
> Hi
> This Is My Story On Why Zildjians Suck. First The Cost If You Don't Buy at
> least an "A" You Are Getting Shit With The Zildjian Logo On It. Second of
> All Zildjian says "Every Cymbal Sounds Different" Its True Because their
> not constant with there formula's and how they're making them. Lets say you
> buy a crash..you love how it sound...6 months later you want another one
> that sounds the same..You will never find it. Finally The Prices Of Them
> never go down, but they keep buying cheaper materials and giving them to
> you. And What The hell is a dry cymbal. All they do is let them lay in the
> dirt for a while.
>
> Now If You want a REAL Cymbal buy Some Paiste Sound Formula Or 2002 you
> cant lose. They all sound the same. so you don't have to try them all out.
> If you dont like it just try a different type (med to Dark etc.) And The
> 402's They are cheaper then hell I bought a 20 in 402 ride it is silver not
> bronze it sounds better then anything you will ever buy from zildjian
>
> Mike
> doct...@juno.com
Thanks for the post. I haven't laughed this hard and long all week.
Slurpee
Who gives a SHIT.....
I use cymbals from Sabian, Paiste, Zildjian and Sterling...the
POINT IS !!!!
I like the sound..my audience loves the sound i create on them
SO what's your problem with the companies.....
THEY PUT EFFORT INTO THESE PRODUCTS
Pissed
Frank DeLuca
On Sat, 12 Jul 1997 11:46:59 -0500, Mit & Gerg <ath...@injersey.com>
wrote:
> _____________________-___________-______
>
>I must admit that this is the most ridiculous post I have read. First
>of all, I don't believe that Zildjian puts their Dry ride in the dirt
>for a few days. That is stupid. If you did your research, you will
>find that not even two Paiste Sound Formulas sound the same. They are
>within the same family, but not the SAME sound.
>
>And What The hell is a dry cymbal.
>
>Well if you are asking that question, why don't you tell us what the
>hell "Dark Crisp Hi-Hats" are?
>
>These are all Paiste terms:
>
>Dark Crisp- Do they deep fry them?
>Silk Crash- Cymbals woven from Silk?
>Crystal Crash- These must be VERY expensive - A bit less than diamond
>crashes?.
>Dry Crisp Ride- Another deep fried.
>Rough Ride- Sounds like a Jeep Wrangler with air-shocks
>
>Having a considerable larger frequency range and sound potential, the
>Paiste line cymbals sound less identical to each other than those of the
>other series.
>
>"With the new Paiste Sound Alloy, we brought order, we organized
>things. That doesn't mean that one cymbal sounds exactly the same as
>the other. They sound similar, not exactly identical," said Robert
>Paiste, prior to the release of the Paiste Sound Alloy cymbals. (Sound
>Formula & Paiste)
>
>The List Price of an A.Zildjian 20" Medium Ride is $289.00
>The List Price 20" Paiste Sound Formula Ride is $346.00
>The List Price of a Paiste signature 20" Ride is $398.00
>
>Now look at who is a rip off.
>
>
>
No matter WHAT cymbals you use, NO TWO CYMBALS will EVER sound the
same! ...This message is directed to John...
Brian
JOHN M. FREJIK <ship...@pgh.net> wrote in article
<01bc8e20$b39f7200$ee41d2ce@shipmate>...
> Hi
> This Is My Story On Why Zildjians Suck. >
> Mike
> doct...@juno.com
Man! First you say Virgil Donati "sucks", then Zildjian and Sabian "suck".
Who pissed in your cornflakes today?
Brian
>
>
>
Johnny Morris
Richard Beechey wrote:
> JOHN M. FREJIK wrote:
> >
> > Hi
> You're a freakin idiot. How can you say that a 402 sounds better than
> anything from Zildjian? You don't know anything. You must have the
> ears
> of a... um... ...creature without very good hearing. The 2002s were
> great for the early 80s but get with it. ALL CYMBALS SUCK!!! Why the
> hell would you even bother with these cold trashy pieces of metal when
>
> you can get so much better sounds out of tennis racquet frames! I
> can't
> stand cymbals. They make far too much noise and just get in the way
> all
> the time. Anyway, nobody with any taste is using cymbals these days.
> They are ALL far too expensive. I found I could buy over 180,000
> toothpicks for the price I paid for my 20" K custom several years ago
> and at least if you crack a toothpick you can glue it back together.
> Try
> that with one of your fancy Sound Formulas! And toothpicks are very
> consistent in every way. If you buy one and then find yourself looking
>
> for another one the same you know you can get one. You don't even have
>
> to try them out.
>
> Directed to anybody who made sense of the original post.
> (That may or may not include the original author)
> --
>
> Richard Beechey
>
> Australia
> richard...@hotmail.com
Well said, my friend.
Ned Potter
In article <01bc8ffc$3b9ff300$0caeb3cf@petersta>, Brian
<Br...@swn.ns.ca> writes
>> This Is My Story On Why Zildjians Suck. >
>> doct...@juno.com
>
>
>Man! First you say Virgil Donati "sucks", then Zildjian and Sabian "suck".
> Who pissed in your cornflakes today?
>
congratulate you on that superb phrase above and tell you that it is the
coolest saying I have ever heard:)
--
Ned
Bryan Hill
In article <33C7B501...@injersey.com>, Mit & Gerg
<ath...@injersey.com> writes:
:
:>The List Price of an A.Zildjian 20" Medium Ride is $289.00
:>The List Price 20" Paiste Sound Formula Ride is $346.00
:>The List Price of a Paiste signature 20" Ride is $398.00
:>
:>Now look at who is a rip off.
Of course, who buys cymbals at list price?
Bryan
BCallWIN
>The List Price of an A.Zildjian 20" Medium Ride is $289.00
>The List Price 20" Paiste Sound Formula Ride is $346.00
>The List Price of a Paiste signature 20" Ride is $398.00
>
>Now look at who is a rip off.
>
>
Sabian 20" AA Ride/Crash/China/whatever.... List = $264.00
>Now look at who is a rip off.
Good point.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
VISIT: http://members.aol.com/BCallWIN/index.html
Richard Beechey
JOHN M. FREJIK wrote:
>
> Hi
Patrick Maddix
Wait a minute,don't Paistes cost more than Zildjians? And all Paistes
don't all sound the same.
st
See Ya,Patrick.
Ned Potter
In article <5qfqkj$a...@mozo.cc.purdue.edu>, Bryan Hill
<cru...@purdue.edu> writes
>In article <33C7B501...@injersey.com>, Mit & Gerg
><ath...@injersey.com> writes:
>:
>:>The List Price of an A.Zildjian 20" Medium Ride is $289.00
>:>The List Price 20" Paiste Sound Formula Ride is $346.00
>:>The List Price of a Paiste signature 20" Ride is $398.00
>:>
>:>Now look at who is a rip off.
>
>
>Bryan
is still the same percentage-wise.
--
Ned
Marc Jones
In article <01bc8e20$b39f7200$ee41d2ce@shipmate>, "JOHN M. FREJIK"
<ship...@pgh.net> wrote:
> Hi
> This Is My Story On Why Zildjians Suck. First The Cost If You Don't Buy at
> least an "A" You Are Getting Shit With The Zildjian Logo On It. Second of
> All Zildjian says "Every Cymbal Sounds Different" Its True Because their
> not constant with there formula's and how they're making them. Lets say you
> buy a crash..you love how it sound...6 months later you want another one
> that sounds the same..You will never find it. Finally The Prices Of Them
> never go down, but they keep buying cheaper materials and giving them to
> you. And What The hell is a dry cymbal. All they do is let them lay in the
> dirt for a while.
>
> Now If You want a REAL Cymbal buy Some Paiste Sound Formula Or 2002 you
> cant lose. They all sound the same. so you don't have to try them all out.
> If you dont like it just try a different type (med to Dark etc.) And The
> 402's They are cheaper then hell I bought a 20 in 402 ride it is silver not
> bronze it sounds better then anything you will ever buy from zildjian
>
> Mike
> doct...@juno.com
First of all........
Nah, forget it. It's too easy.
--
-MJ
mej...@pop.uky.edu
Remove "nospam" from email address to reply
Sam & Dan Ponjican
Slurpee wrote:
Right on Slurpee!
Why are guys so loyal to one company? It's not like they sponsor you or
something like that. Pick what sounds the best and use it.
Zildjain Oriental China boy
Sabian HH Rock Ride
Sabian AA Regular Hats
Paiste 2002 10" splash
You get the picture?
--
-Dan Ponjican
(Otherwise known as: "Danidravo Scamravec Ponicanovic")
http://mars.superlink.net/sdponj
scl...@fds.com
I will jump into the frey with my Zildjian story. I needed a pair of
orchestral finger cymbals. While I was making my selection, the sales
clerk recited his pitch about the many generations of the Zildjian
family, world famous secret cymbal formula, "Old World" craftsmanship
etc. Well, I found a good sounding set but then I noticed the hole in
one of the cymbals was not centered. It seemed kind of silly to pay
premium dollars for the best finger cymbals in the world and get a set
with an offset hole. So, we went thru all the half dozen sets in the
stores inventory and could not find a single matched set which were not
defective. The sales clerk had no explaination as to why the maker of
the worlds finest cymbals would not or could not drill a hole in the
center of a round disk.
Now, I must admit that the sound of all of these "defective" cymbals
surpassed the other manufacturers finger cymbals by a vast margin and I
bought the Zildjians because of the sound. Perhaps an offset finger
cymbal hole is part of the Zildjian family's "secret".
I do not agree with the original author of this thread that one
particular line of percussion instruments sucks while another is
extraordinary. Rather, the opinion I have formed over the years is that
it is all crap. I will give some examples to support this opinion.
The first example is the prices which were referenced in this thread.
$300 for a 20" cymbal is ridiculous. When I compare the manufacturing
steps and the craftsmanship that goes into making other instruments, I do
not see how these prices can be justified. There may be a degree of
craftsmanship in cymbal manufacturing but it is way out of porportion to
the retail cost.
My first real drum set was a Slingerland purchased in 1973. This may not
have been Slingerland's golden year but they certainly were trying to
re-capture market share from Ludwig by claiming to be the highest quality
manufacturer. I bought these drums in part because of the hardware. The
stands were about the heaviest made at the time. The hoops were stiffer
than any others and the catalog stated they were guaranteed never to
break or rust. Well, the hoops and all the hardware began showing signs
of rust inside of six months sitting in my bedroom.
I find it very interesting that rust is a such a common problem on drum
hardware. Yet, my mother has an electric mixer that has gotten regular
use for three decades and the beaters do not show any trace of rust.
I still have those Slingerlands. They were stored away for a number of
years while I made time for family and career. Last, year I took time to
clean them up and discovered some interesting details about their
construction. Three of the five wooden drums were filled with wood
putty! This became obvious because the wood putty had broken down over
time into a white powder. Not only had wood putty been used to fill gaps
in the layers of plywood, wood putty had also been used to build-up
significant sections of the BEARING EDGE on two of the drums!
As I said above, my point is not to run down a particular manufacturer.
I believe my experiences are not unusual and would apply to most if not
all other drum manufacturers. If you do not agree, try taking all your
drums and stands apart. How many stripped threads or incompletely tapped
threads do you find. How about gaps where the plys come together or voids
between the plys. Are the holes in the shell splintered like they were
gouged out with a dull drill. Try browsing through a music store that
has a good supply of used drums. If you have not noticed before, you
will be surprised at the number of toms and bass drums with cracked plys
or peeling veneers and snare drums with rusted or peeling chrome.
I do not understand why, but manufacturers of percussion instruments do
not hold to the same level of quality and workmanship that other
instrument makers adhere to. Again, if you do not agree, browse the
music stores. Look at the used guitars, pianos, brass, woodwinds and
strings. It is not that percussion takes more abuse. Drums are the
worlds oldest instrument and have evolved to withstand the shock of being
played. Likewise, it is not that percussionist abuse their instruments.
It just does not make sense to argue that drummers have more money to
throw away than other musicians. (In fact, my personal experience
indicates the opposite.) Percussion instruments are just not made well
to begin with.
Steve Clark
s...@fds.com
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Raveler
All of these companies make great sounding stuff! It comes down to
personal preference of how you like a company's manufacturing methods,
and final product.
I worked for Paiste for 5 years as a Product Specialist (sales rep). I
have my preference after years of experience with all the cymbal
companies (including UFIP, Meinl, etc). However, ALL these companies make
fine products and I am willing to bet that most working and professional
drummers and percussionists have at least some from each company!
Most drummer's that endorse products will tell you honestly that they
have many different brands of instruments for different
situations to pull from...especially studio, film, or tv work.
robert gallagher,jr
Nick you said it bud! Zildjians are the best made!!!! Every one should
be different. Do you think that "Idiot" plays a kit with all 12" toms
because they sound the same? rob
Marcelo Lecours
My friend, that statement does not hold true for Latin Percussion
Instruments. I own a pair of real old, brass, Ludwig Timbales (probably
about 35-40 years old) and they are beat to hell but not by lack of
quality in the craftsmanship. In fact, considering all the abuse those
poor babies have recieved, it's a miracle that they are still standing!
I also have two pairs of conga drums from LP, one pair is rather new but
the other is about 10 years old and it is in outstanding shape! Ofcourse
it has some scratches and stuff but again, there is no defect in the
workmanship.
Perhaps this is because the timbales are made of brass and the congas
are made of solid strips of oak. There is no plywood to be gapped as
there is in a drum kit. However, there are lots of metal and chrome
parts which could have easily rusted or cracked as they have on my Pearl
Exports (which incidentally have always sucked).
What are your thoughts on this? I'd like to know.
Marcelo
doct...@juno.com
Marcelo
============================================================
What The Hell Does This Have To Do With Zildjians Sucking
--
Mike
doct...@juno.com
ROCK ON----PLEASE RESPOND
scl...@fds.com
In article <33D634...@gate.net>,
omeg...@gate.net wrote:
>
>> scl...@fds.com wrote:
>> Percussion instruments are just not made well to begin with.
>
> My friend, that statement does not hold true for Latin Percussion
> Instruments.
I am glad you have had better luck with your instruments than I have.
Regarding your Ludwig Timbales, I consider you extremely fortunate. I
have seen lots of Ludwig snare drums with the chrome peeling off in large
flakes. This happened to one of my instructors so I know it was not the
result of abuse or neglect.
My personal experience with LP had been limited to a couple of cowbells.
However, I recently bought a used LP Matador Conga and I am hoping it
serves me as well as yours have.
Are Latin percussion instruments made better than other percussion
instruments? My experience with Latin percussion is limited so I am not
really qualified to say. I will grant you that I have seen a big
improvement in these instruments over the years. The music stores used
to be stocked with unbranded Latin instruments imported from who knows
where. I have seen things that looked like cowbells but sounded just
awfull. And I have seen congas which developed stress cracks half the
lenghth of the shell just sitting in the store. Manufacturers, like LP,
have greatly improved the situation.
Steve Clark
scl...@fds.com
Marcelo Lecours
doct...@juno.com wrote:
>
> scl...@fds.com wrote:
> Percussion instruments are just not made well to begin with.
>
> My friend, that statement does not hold true for Latin Percussion
> about 35-40 years old) and they are beat to hell but not by lack of
> quality in the craftsmanship. In fact, considering all the abuse those
> poor babies have recieved, it's a miracle that they are still standing!
>
> I also have two pairs of conga drums from LP, one pair is rather new but
> the other is about 10 years old and it is in outstanding shape! Ofcourse
> it has some scratches and stuff but again, there is no defect in the
> workmanship.
>
> Perhaps this is because the timbales are made of brass and the congas
> are made of solid strips of oak. There is no plywood to be gapped as
> there is in a drum kit. However, there are lots of metal and chrome
> parts which could have easily rusted or cracked as they have on my Pearl
> Exports (which incidentally have always sucked).
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> What The Hell Does This Have To Do With Zildjians Sucking
> --
> Mike
> doct...@juno.com
> ROCK ON----PLEASE RESPOND
is a change and change is good.
Shawn Martin
scl...@fds.com wrote in article <8698585...@dejanews.com>...
> I am glad you have had better luck with your instruments than I have.
> Regarding your Ludwig Timbales, I consider you extremely fortunate. I
> have seen lots of Ludwig snare drums with the chrome peeling off in large
> flakes. This happened to one of my instructors so I know it was not the
> result of abuse or neglect.
> scl...@fds.com
The majority of the Ludwigs that had the bad plating were made in the 70's.
I don't know what they did differently but some of them peeled pretty
badly.
--
Shawn Martin email: cr...@navix.net
----------------------------------------------------------------------
A Tribute to Gene Krupa-http://web.idirect.com/~crashmag/gk.html