Moeller Technique
Christopher A. Bruce
the years that I've been playing and learning, I've never heard of
this. Can anyone explain what the MT is, and then suggest some books
or videos that cover it.
Thanks,
Christopher
Jon Khoo
more experienced in teaching will do a much better job than i can over this
medium. It's the sort of thing i think you really need to see rather than
read about... however, i can point you in the direction of some good videos.
The first is Jim Chapin's "Speed, Control and Endurance" (i think that's the
right title). It focuses on hand technique, and Jim shows a few different
types of techniques, but focuses primarily on the Moeller technique. It's a
fairly... well... boring video, and rambles a bit... i was kind of lost
halfway through it because he didn't explain things all that well, or maybe
he did, but they edited it out? Anyways... despite this, i still recommend
it - although Jim's instruction isn't the most in-depth, it's still
adequate, and the real learning comes from watching him play... absolutely
amazing.
The second is Dave Weckl's How to Develop Technique. Dave's amazing to
watch(as always) and he really breaks down the moeller technique and
explains the basics of it, before demonstrating it. My technique improved
quite a bit after watching this video. A few local pros around here have
told me that they have been using the video as well, and have reported good
results.
my $0.02...
Jon
Christopher A. Bruce <br...@cua.edu> wrote in message
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Hoagy
The man was great to talk to, and he taught me the technique while talking
about life. It was great. Peace
Ryan "Hoagy" Hoagland
=======================================
Jazz Transit
Dr. Z's Experiment http://www.DrZsExperiment.com
Ed Pierce
Jim's video is great. I didn't find it boring, and having watched it numerous
times, I feel I get a little bit more out of it each time (whether because
there's so much info on it or because I'm slow on the uptake I'm not sure). I
haven't seen Weckl's new video, but I would imagine it's excellent, based on a
clinic I saw him do a couple of years ago where he talked about the Moeller
method (as well as his recently acquired Freddie Gruber concepts, no doubt also
covered in the video). A very good recent book that I highly recommend is Dom
Famularo's "It's Your Move." He talks about the Moeller stroke in some detail
and includes specific exercises for it, as well as drawings that show how your
hands should look while executing it. Dom was a student of Jim Chapin in the
70's. Info about his book is at www.domfamularo.com (there are a lot of great
drum set concepts in this book as well).
A book that I rarely hear mentioned, yet I have found of enormous value is John
Wooton's book "Drummer's Rudimental Reference." It has a lot of great
exercises for developing technique. Wooton has a short explanation of stroke
types at the beginning that show how to apply a Moeller concept to the
execution of rudiments (even though it's not specifically called the "Moeller
Method" in his explanation). He mentions that the method was taught to him by
Dom Famularo, incidentally. One of the things that made me get the book was
Chapin telling me (when I saw him at PASIC one year) that Wooton was one of the
more prominent Drum Corps guys who utilized the Moeller method. Chapin also
wrote a blurb for the book saying that it's the best text ever written on the
rudiments.
Ed Pierce
Billy Cuthrell
is good that it makes it rounds!
I have studied with Jim for a few years, and he is here in my studios to
teach every few months. Jim also stays here at our house when he comes down,
so I get a lot of time with him while he is here. The Moeller Technique is a
very ergonomic way of playing the drums, and the accents achieved by this
method are tremendous. The notes are much more "rounded" and very fluid. Jim
just turned 82 in July, and he is one of the most articulate drummers around
at this age. On our way to NAMM, Jim said to me that he thought it was still
amazing that he could play as well as he does for his age, but the technique
is the thing, and he knows that it never would have carried him this far if
he was not using such a relaxed method of playing. The blood is not
restricted from flowing into the hands, thus increasing the mobility of
circulation when playing. A very relaxed and fluid tech. Jim taught Freddie
Gruber this tech. in the 50's and many drummers have studied this same
method and developed other "systems" of doing the same thing. For instance,
Joe Porcaro's method is derived from the Moeller system, but with a little
twist in the rebounds. Many drummers naturally play the whipping motion in
the Moeller system without ever knowing they are doing it.
Get the Chapin video, or if you have a chance to study with Jim, do that as
well! Well worth the knowledge.
Billy Cuthrell
Progressive Percussion Drum Studios
edrum...@mindspring.com
Bill Ray
He refused any compensation for his time, which was the epitome of class.
I'm still working on the concepts he taught me and that has been one of the
highlights of my drumming experience. Thanks Jim!!
--
Best Regards,
13612
Bill Ray
www.billraydrums.com
"Billy Cuthrell" <bc...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
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Cliff Hyslop
watching.
Cliff
Jon Khoo <jk...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
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George Lawrence
Bill Ray wrote:
>
> I cornered him at the NAMM show a few years back and got a 15 minute lesson.
> He refused any compensation for his time, which was the epitome of class.
He was compensated by DW. That's his gig.
--
George Lawrence, Nashville TN
Drumsets Rendered
http://www.drumguru.com
"The longer you take, the farther you'll get"
Mell Csicsila
Ray" <bill@_SPAM_ME_NOT_billraydrums.com> wrote:
> I cornered him at the NAMM show a few years back and got a 15 minute
> lesson.
> He refused any compensation for his time, which was the epitome of class.
> I'm still working on the concepts he taught me and that has been one of
> the
> highlights of my drumming experience. Thanks Jim!!
Did you get that hand out of several pages that he has? I got a copy in
a half-hour lesson from him a few years ago in Canton and it's got some
good information in it. I don't do the full-blown Moeller stuff, but it
has informed my playing and teaching a bit. It turns out I do some of
that stuff anyways, but not to the extreme that he does.
--
Mell D. Csicsila
email: mcsicsil (AT) kent (DOT) edu
web: http://home.sprintmail.com/~mdcsicsila
Billy Cuthrell
especially when playing the hihat. The hand plays the up/down motion rather
fluidly with 8th's, and the notes sound much more "round" that way. The
hand-out worksheets are based on the booklet in Jim's video, but there are
more than the standard exercises included that come with it. The "pull-out"
accents in the hand-outs Jim presents in private lessons are very good, and
there are tons of builders there too. Jim gave me his second book (the open
end) as one of my wedding gifts, and we went through a lot of it when he was
here in July. Very good book, and it really shows the genius behind what Jim
is thinking, and the Moeller method.
Interestingly, Mike Portnoy was in the studio the same day Jim was here, and
I can send you some mpgs of Jim and Mike hanging and talking Moeller in our
teaching rooms (or jpgs). Mike was very nice and Jim spoke very highly of
him.
Jim Fleck
"Instructor in the Art of Snare Drumming" by Sanford A. Moeller. The
copyright is from 1925, and it was reprinted in 1939. My edition is
the 1940 reprint.
I can't say that Moeller's method is detailed very well, but there are
wonderful photo plates for the Single Stroke, the Up Stroke, and the
Flam in which the entire stroke is pictured in several movie frames --
45 frames for the Single Stroke alone. They are also accompanied by
narrative explanation. This format (the movie frames) always struck me
as remarkably "modern" for a 1925 instructional book.
Does anyone else have a copy of this? Have you found it helpful? I
have trouble with it.
Kevin Barrett
>I'd forgotten that I have an old copy of the Ludwig & Ludwig
>"Instructor in the Art of Snare Drumming" by Sanford A. Moeller. The
>copyright is from 1925, and it was reprinted in 1939. My edition is
>the 1940 reprint.
>
>I can't say that Moeller's method is detailed very well, but there are
>wonderful photo plates for the Single Stroke, the Up Stroke, and the
>Flam in which the entire stroke is pictured in several movie frames --
>45 frames for the Single Stroke alone. They are also accompanied by
>narrative explanation. This format (the movie frames) always struck me
>as remarkably "modern" for a 1925 instructional book.
>
>Does anyone else have a copy of this? Have you found it helpful? I
>have trouble with it.
>
>
I have a copy of the book which I found years ago in an old music
store. Mine was printed in 1960. The price was $1.00.
When I saw Chapin at the '99 PASIC I mentioned the book. As I recall
he said that Moeller really regretted the book and thought it turned
out lousy. That seemed to be Chapin's opinion as well. I may not be
remembering the conversation accurately, but I think Jim said Moeller
thought the book did more harm than good in explaining his technique.
Perhaps someone who knows Jim might be more familiar with his opinion
of the book and what Moeller himself thought of it. Personally I
don't think the book is very helpful. I doubt that anyone would come
away with a good understanding of the Moeller technique by studying
this book (IMHO).
Jay Epstein
I've had my Moeller Book ('56 reprint) for years, but was always
confused about it until I saw the Chapin video - not to say I've
worked out of the book much since, but Chapin clarifies the up/down
stroking really well in "Speed, Power, Control, & Endurance".
Jay
"Give a man a drum and he'll make a buncha noise.
Teach a man to drum and he'll steal your gig!" - George Lawrence
Ed Pierce
My impression from Chapin is this: Moeller wrote the Moeller Book ca. 1920
before he really had his system (as we know it today, via people like Chapin)
"figured out." When Chapin went to his first lesson with Moeller in the late
30's he brought Moeller's book, and Moeller himself told him to ignore it,
saying the book was "all messed up." As Chapin explained it, the main area in
which the book erred was by the pictures--the motions they showed were too
exaggerated. Chapin said Moeller had "fallen in love with the upstroke" early
on and exaggerated it in his teaching. Later on, he realized that by drooping
the wrist too much it actually detracted from power and speed, so he revamped
his Method. Chapin said that Krupa was taught this exaggerated upstroke by
Moeller in the early 30's, and it contributed to Krupa wearing himself out
later in his career, so that his technique had slipped by the 50's or so
(Chapin said if he himself had started playing drums in the early 30's, he
probably would have been better off studying with J. Burns Moore than with
Moeller).
Apparently after Moeller revamped and further codified his system by the late
30's, he asked William F. Ludwig, Sr. if he could reprint the book with new
info and pictures, but Ludwig refused, allegedly because the book was selling
very well as is.
Aside from any problems with the pictures, I think the down/up/tap symbols are
still pretty confusing in the book, because the "downstroke" symbols don't
always correspond to an accent in the text. I see the Moeller book as mainly
just another textbook on learning rudiments in general rather than a sourcebook
for learning the Moeller Method. For that, one would be much better off
getting Chapin's video and Dom Famularo's book "It's Your Move", which talks
about the technique in some detail.
Kevin Barrett
Thanks for the info. I think it pretty much corresponds to what
Chapin told me at the 99 PASIC, although I couldn't recall all of the
details.
I need to check out Dom's book. What other sorts of things does it
contain?
George Lawrence
Kevin Barrett wrote:
a bunch good stuff.
What I figured out about the Moeller technique is that if you
concentrate more on not doing any prepatory motion before a lift stroke
then you can do the Moeller whipping stroke with out so much
exxageration. The main flaw I've seen in teaching this is in failing to
have the student start the whole thing with the lift stroke starting at
the drum. If you can learn how to break your wrist while the stick is
poised just above the drum (again no preparatory motion), letting the
stick fall toward the drum as you are lifting your arm and wrist up to
snap in the full stroke, than you are doing the most important part of
the Moeller method. It's basically about getting two hits out of one
stroke, not three. It is more useful in the long run to learn it as a
method of playing alternating ghost notes and full strokes than it is
the triplet (Moeller/Chapin/Morello) technique. The old method of stoke.
bounce, lift confuses the issue. I've quit calling it the Moeller
method altogether. Call it lift and snap-stroke and it is more easily
comprehended. This is always treated as some kind of secret JUJU, but
it's actually a basic stroke that everybody already uses to some degree,
thought it is rarely learned as such. Example, if you play flams
correctly, with a dropped and then lifted grace note, then youare using
the Most important aspects of the "Moeeler Method', the lift and
snap-full stoke. look at what each individual hand is doing in flams.
Your right hand is playing lift stroke, snap stroke while your other hnd
is playing snap stroke, lift stroke. Jeez, it's late. signing off.
George Lawrence
Drumset Academy, Nashville TN
http://www.drumguru.com
"Two and four and then some"
Lee Jones
Cool video but I seem to remember most of it being on that triplet pattern.
ja...@earth.man (Jay Epstein) wrote in <3b9447a7.25697582
@news.tcinternet.net>:
>Jim,
>I've had my Moeller Book ('56 reprint) for years, but was always
>confused about it until I saw the Chapin video - not to say I've
>worked out of the book much since, but Chapin clarifies the up/down
>stroking really well in "Speed, Power, Control, & Endurance".
>
--
"Face it, you are retarded, fat, stupid, mentally ill,
a talentless drummer, small dicked, cowardly and basically
a waste of protein and nitrogen."
"You have no friends. EVERYONE in RMMP and the world thinks
that you are a mentally ill fat fuck moron. Accept it."
- R Schuh
Ed Pierce
>contain?
It starts with a section on hand technique, including very clear descriptions
of the "free stroke" and the Moeller technique, and gives ideas for applying
the techniques to Stick Control, Accents and Rebounds, etc. The drum set
section is a pot pourri of exercises to develop various areas of your playing:
there is a cool section on flams, exercises on unison hits between limbs (in
order to strengthen precision and groove), exercises to develop the weaker
limbs (left hand and foot), and lots of other stuff. One of the things I like
is that he gives specific recommendations for how to approach practicing the
exercises, and indicates how the ideas can be applied (again) to standard books
like Stick Control and Syncopation, for instance. The forward to the book is
by Jim Chapin.
Ed Pierce
Ed Pierce
In John Wooton's book "The Drummer's Rudimental Reference" he describes hand
motions very similar to the Moeller Method, yet he never calls it such (even
though he says he was taught the method by Dom Famularo). For many of the
rudiments he talks about executing them with these strokes (such as alternating
flams at moderate to fast speeds being executed by Moeller down and up strokes
in each hand, but staggered). He includes a whole section at the front of the
book with one handed accented exercises, so you can isolate each hand when
practicing the upstrokes before the accents.
Ed Pierce
Kevin Barrett
Ed,
Thanks for the info. It sounds like a very interesting book. If I
don't pick up a copy sooner I'll try to peruse one at PASIC.
Nowadays, with so many good books on the market, it's easy for me to
get caught up with them and lose focus on the music. I almost hate to
buy books anymore because I know I won't have the time or energy to
get thru them. I guess the key is being selective in what and how
you practice.
Ed Pierce
really work out of many of them, but all of them can offer insight into various
techniques and concepts, or reinforce ideas in other books. Also, it's nice
knowing they're there when I finally decide to have time to work out of one of
them! I don't see any harm in having lots of books as long as your ears are
developed enough to guide you in using the material.
Ed
P.S. Dom has some excerpts from his book on his web site, www.domfamularo.com.