Great Drummers
Saiyad S. Shah
Hey Folks
In my opinion Ian Paice (Deep Purple) is the best rock drummer.
He has amazing variations, speed and phenomenal(sp?) pedal control.
Listen to some of the DP songs (to name a few) like Space Truckin',
Fireball, Maybe I'm a Leo, Highway Star or any of his drum solo in any
of the live albums and you'll know what I mean.
By the way I was wondering who do you guys think is the finest rock
drummer.
Mike Porter
>In my opinion Ian Paice (Deep Purple) is the best rock drummer.
>drummer.
Neil Peart, Alan White, and Tommy Aldridge (what a trio, huh).
---Michael...
MuffinHead
>In my opinion Ian Paice (Deep Purple) is the best rock drummer.
Yep, the guy is the Buddy Rich of rock.
>By the way I was wondering who do you guys think is the finest rock
>drummer.
I couldn't name just one because tomorrow I'd want to name a
different one. For rock-only drummers, I'd include Ian, Tommy
Aldridge, and Alex Van Halen. I'm not including the likes of Neil
Peart, Stew, or Vinnie because they're on a much higher level than
what I consider to be a "rock" drummer. I also didn't include Matt
Sorrum because the guy couldn't play to save his big fat life. He's an
example of how it doesn't take much talent to get famous. He's the
Billy Ray Cyrus of the drumming world.
Muff
Marcus A Picasso
Well I hope I'm not starting a stupid flame-war 'bout this, because
this is just my $0.02:
What do you mean by saying that Matt Sorum (sp?) doesn't have much
talent? If you only mean that you dislike his technical performance I
could meet you halfway, but otherwise, how can you say something like
that about a drummer who plays in a band as famous as GNR? GNR could
have choosen almost any drummer when Steven Adler was kicked-out from
the band. And they took Matt.
Obviously they had good reasons to get Matt in the band. And I can
hear all those reasons on UYI I & II. So maybe he doesn't throw fills
with mixed up quadruplets and triplets and that kind of shit (sorry, I
really don't mean that :-) but he shure knows how to play drumpatterns
that makes you think of only one thing: Rock'n'Roll. A drummer doesn't
have to play complicated stuff at all, it's enuff' if it feeds the
purpose of a song. And that's a talent in my opinion.
>He's the Billy Ray Cyrus of the drumming world.
I'm just waiting for your comment on S. Adler ;-).
>Muff
Oh, and Muff, a good example on rock-n-roll music that would be
spoiled if the drummer would add any technic in his drumming, would be
D.A.D. (once called Disneyland After Dark) from Denmark.
--
Marcus A Picasso
e-mail: pic...@cc.Helsinki.FI
Randy L. Buskirk
:
:
: Hey Folks
I can't argue with that! Ian Paice has always been one of my favorite dummers.
I've recently been listening to Dream Theater's "When Dream and Day Unite",
and am most impressed by Mike Portnoy. Talk about pedal control! Check out
"The YTSE Jam" or "Light Fuse And Get Away" from this album if you can find it!
Another of my all time favorites is Simon Phillips, he never ceases to amaze
me with his control and incredible bass pedal technique such as on Jeff Beck's
"There and Back" album. Does anyone know of other albums that Simon plays
on that show off his great talent?
-- Randy
MuffinHead
>What do you mean by saying that Matt Sorum (sp?) doesn't have much
>talent? If you only mean that you dislike his technical performance I
>could meet you halfway, but otherwise, how can you say something like
>that about a drummer who plays in a band as famous as GNR?
The fame of a band's name doesn't say anything about the talent of its
members. Personally, I don't hear a whole heck of a lot of talent
coming out of Matt (nor Stephen for that matter). Sure, I know that if
he played like Neil Peart or Jon Farris, Guns & Roses never would've
hired him because he wouldn't have fit their music. He does fit in
with their music. But, to me, that doesn't mean he's talented. There
are about three-thousand drummers just like him on the west coast. He
isn't anything special.
One thing that always comes to mind when Matt's mentioned is his
"performance" on the "Yamaha DTS70 and RY30 Artist Series Cards" sound
sheet that was MD a few months ago, along with tracks by Dave Weckl,
Tommy Aldridge, and Tony Verderosa. You can imagine what the
performances of the last three guys sounds like. Now here's Matt's:
Tom1 |x..x..x..x..|............|
Tom2 |.x..x..x..x.|x..x..x..x..|
Tom3 |............|.x..x..x..x.|
Bass |..x..x..x..x|..x..x..x..x|
That's pretty much it for the entire track - just a bunch of
triplets between both hands and one foot, and not really done very
well either. Here he has a chance to "get in good" with the rest of
the drummers of fame and fortune (and talent) and THIS is all he can
pull off? I'm sorry, but a few triplets and the ability to play a
powerful rock groove all night doesn't add up to talent in my book. Or
maybe I just hate him because he wears that stupid bandana on his head
all the time. Or his hair. Or the fact that he's in Guns & Roses. I
dunno. A combination of all those.
Just my opinion, mind you. Not feeding flames.
Muff
PG Herzberg
: In article <1stpl1$u...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ss...@po.CWRU.Edu (Saiyad S. Shah) writes:
: >In my opinion Ian Paice (Deep Purple) is the best rock drummer.
: >By the way I was wondering who do you guys think is the finest rock
: >drummer.
I don't know about this heavier end so much, but surely one of the
best drummers in the world has to be Jim Keltner. His work with Ry
Cooder, John Hiatt and many others shows a taste and maturity that is
hard to comprehend, he could, possibly, be mentioned in the same
breath as Steve Gadd and not suffer at all in comparison. Yet he seems
as far as I can see to be rarely mentioned when this greatest drummer
stuff (and nonsense, it's all a matter of what you're looking for in a
drummer and as such means next to nothing to anybody other than
yourself) comes around every once in a while.
Then there's Prince's drum box, and whoever is doing the percussion
for Tom Waits :-).
Yours
Paul Herzberg.
P.S. I remember when Phil Collins was a good drummer. Hard to believe
nowadays isn't it?
James R Lendino
>P.S. I remember when Phil Collins was a good drummer. Hard to believe
>nowadays isn't it?
I don't know WHAT happened to this poor guy. I've been listening to
a lot of the early Genesis albums lately, back when Peter Gabriel was
sining (pre-1975) -- Phil was pretty damn good.
I just saw Genesis in concert last summer. It was a good concert, but
their sound is all "in-your-face" (for lack of a better description)
as opposed to 20 years ago. They've written some great stuff since
1980 in their new style (Duke, Abacab, and some scattered songs from
the newer albums) but their sound has gone way too bright these days.
And Phil can't sing either anymore. :-)
The drum duet that Chester and Phil did was really ho-hum for the
most part -- one super-fast, extended, all-right-I-get-the-point
fast roll for each of them, a really stupid part where all they
do is hit the rims of the drums, and that's the highlights.
The old-medley they did was awesome, though -- the whole band played
REALLY well, which makes me wonder why they sound like shit sometimes.
Check out "The Way We Walk, Vol. 2 -- the Longs" -- they did an
excellent job on Firth of Fifth, even if it was not the whole song
and also not as subtle as it used to be.
Sigh... still like them a lot regardless of their spotty playing
these days.
Regards,
-JRL
______
James R. Lendino | |
Computer Science | i486 | Phone: (212)-853-7783
Columbia S.E.A.S. |______| Internet: jr...@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Jay Lundell
I don't know if this category is restricted to live drummers, but the
greatest rock drummer who ever lived is John Bonham. No question.
Bonham's technical skills were superb, as evidenced by his live solos on
Moby Dick, and recordings like Good Times Bad Times (yes, he played a
single bass drum). But his true genious was in the simplicity of the
parts he played with Zepplin, and the sheer raw power and sound of his
drums.
Listen to the crushing sound he gets on the intro on "When the Levee
Breaks". It's a pattern that almost any novice could play, but no one
could play quite like he does. The sounds he got out of his drums were
unlike any heard before that time, and they have been copied by rock
drummers ever since.
Generally, the more he matured as a drummer, the more economically he
played, and the more force, power, and groove he brought to the Led
Zepplin sound. The true sign of someone who has mastered his craft.
Richard J Nelson
>members. Personally, I don't hear a whole heck of a lot of talent
>coming out of Matt (nor Stephen for that matter). Sure, I know that if
>he played like Neil Peart or Jon Farris, Guns & Roses never would've
>hired him because he wouldn't have fit their music. He does fit in
>with their music. But, to me, that doesn't mean he's talented. There
>are about three-thousand drummers just like him on the west coast. He
>isn't anything special.
I agree! When I heard (and saw) their live act on cable, I was shocked
by his lack of style (unless you call 2/4 with a buncha triplets style...)
I couldn't help but laugh when he played his 'solo'. I have never been
one to judge a drummer's talent by the quality of his solo, but this one
was _really_ sad! (let me play it for those of you who did not have the
pleasure of hearing it -- *roll* *triplet here* *triplet there*
*long triplet* *short triplet* *LOUD triplet* *soft tripler* *stand up*
*sit down* *a second guy banging on a floor tom...sounds like thunder...
oooh,impressive* *another long triplet, and screem a lot*. Wow, wasn't
that refreshing!
-beaner
DAVID RE
Yeah, Ian is good. He's not my fav, though...
>By the way I was wondering who do you guys think is the finest rock
>drummer.
I'd have to make a toss up, but my favorites are: Rod Morgenstein,
Scott Rockenfield, and Vinnie Appice.
With those three, you get fusion/rock (Rod), progressive metal (Scott)
and total power (Vinnie) :)
--
Dave Re | "There's nothing to do when I check out!
Georgia Institute of Technology | So me and my hammer go house to house"
cco...@prism.gatech.edu | Kill Floor
| Galactic Cowboys
Richard J Nelson
>In my opinion Ian Paice (Deep Purple) is the best rock drummer.
>
>drummer.
I really like Anton Fig's style, and what about John Bonham's pedal
control?
-beaner
DAVID RE
>I've recently been listening to Dream Theater's "When Dream and Day Unite",
>and am most impressed by Mike Portnoy. Talk about pedal control! Check out
>"The YTSE Jam" or "Light Fuse And Get Away" from this album if you can find it!
Hell, check out their "Images and Words" album. His drums sounds are
little "squashed" (over compressed in places), but his playing is really
outstanding. He's a great guy in person, too, which is more than I can
say for other players that I've met (like, Lars Ulrich....)
MuffinHead
played on more albums than you can fit into a small truck, but he's not
one of those "I use Muff-Stopper muffling system on my heads. My wife
uses them too" drummers who endorses everything under the sun and he's
rarely pictured in MD. Which, in a way, is good.
BTW, I have a copy of an album put out by Sheffield (sp?) Labs quite
a while ago that was made as a system testing disc. One side is Jim, the
other is... um... another one of those guys whose name I can't remember.
So if you love to hear Jim play, look through Sheffield's catalogue.
Muff
Brian Cox
>Saiyad S. Shah (ss...@po.CWRU.Edu) wrote:
>:
>:
>: Hey Folks
>:
>: In my opinion Ian Paice (Deep Purple) is the best rock drummer.
>: He has amazing variations, speed and phenomenal(sp?) pedal control.
>: Listen to some of the DP songs (to name a few) like Space Truckin',
>: Fireball, Maybe I'm a Leo, Highway Star or any of his drum solo in any
>: of the live albums and you'll know what I mean.
>:
>: By the way I was wondering who do you guys think is the finest rock
>: drummer.
>:
>I can't argue with that! Ian Paice has always been one of my favorite dummers.
>I've recently been listening to Dream Theater's "When Dream and Day Unite",
>and am most impressed by Mike Portnoy. Talk about pedal control! Check out
>"The YTSE Jam" or "Light Fuse And Get Away" from this album if you can find it!
These guys may not be Rock Drummers, But my top 3 have always been
Rod Morgenstein, Phil Collins and Prairie Prince.
>Another of my all time favorites is Simon Phillips, he never ceases to amaze
>me with his control and incredible bass pedal technique such as on Jeff Beck's
>"There and Back" album. Does anyone know of other albums that Simon plays
>on that show off his great talent?
>-- Randy
For straight ahead Rock, you gotta like Simon. IMHO, he would have been
a much better Keith Moon replacement than Kenny Jones.
--BC--
--
"Stay within 17 minutes of the house, and if you see a flash, don't look at it!"
bri...@acuson.com (415) 694-5189 [ Work ] (408) 423-7710 [ Home ]
Last time I checked, I was not the official spokesmodel for ACUSON
Eric Delore
for Wire Train, a band signed with MCA. He's not on the first Wire Train
album, In a Chamber, but is on all subsequent Wire Train albums. He also
does session work for acts like John Hiatt, Cheap Trick, Grace Slick,
and Roger Waters (sp?). His time is rock steady and his fills are
outrageous. What I like most about his playing is his sense of dynamics.
He can come way down when the song dictates but somehow still maintain
a sense of driving beat. I have sung in front of another drummer who
could do this, and it was great. I couldn't figure out how he was
doing it because I heard no snare or rim shots, just bass drum and
something else, maybe real light tom. This technique, however, really
brought out the quieter parts of my band's songs.
I have a drum set in the studio, and I don't know how you guys do it!
I'm totally bushed after two or three songs. Ciao,
Eric
u95_...@vaxc.stevens-tech.edu
> I've recently been listening to Dream Theater's "When Dream and Day Unite",
> and am most impressed by Mike Portnoy. Talk about pedal control! Check out
> "The YTSE Jam" or "Light Fuse And Get Away" from this album if you can find it!
>
> -- Randy
I've just recently started listening to Dream Theater and I have to say that
Mike Portnoy is one of, if not the best rock drummer I've ever heard.
-dave
Fletcher L. Davis
Hey Muff I was just wondering, but what experiences have
you had that have formulated such an opinion about Matt Sorum?
--
The Drumbeat of America....today's DrumWorkshop Drums
Fletcher L. Davis
I was just wondering, again no fight intended, but has anyone seen
Matt Sorum in concert? I saw him about a month ago here in Maine, and
his solo was outstanding. This was not merely speed mind you. Amongst
all that smoke and pot, I was counting along with him. Talk about
control. He put down some serious grooves that I haven't heard out
of him before. And he did play the one solo he ALWAYS plays, but I
don't know. I am not a great critic.......
p.s. I agree with Muff that the fame of the band has nothing to do with
quality of the drummer. In fact I have seen that fame follows from luck
PG Herzberg
: These guys may not be Rock Drummers, But my top 3 have always been
:
: Rod Morgenstein, Phil Collins and Prairie Prince.
Don't know about the others, but there have been a couple of posts
concerning Phil, one was mine so I know. He's fallen off real hard
recently. Right up to Invivsible Touch he was still up there, but
nowadays he plays the same stuff so much you can spot the track he's
trying to recreate with annoying ease.
That said he was massively influential in many
drummers develpoment in the eighties and caused many people (whether
good or bad) to attempt things percussive. His early Genesis stuff was
brilliant (Apocalypse in 9/8, anyone? though I know that this is
triplets over 3/4, it's still great) and those things he did with
Brand X are also quite amazing. What has happened? One answer to this
was in a recent interview he did in Making Music where when asked what
success has done for them Phil replied (probably jokingly) that he
doesn't practice anymore. I believed him. Is there a moral here?
Yours,
Paul Herzberg.
James Wolf
You missed one of Ian's finsest moments: "Burn".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolf Man
James Wolf
Portnoy's even better on "Images and Words". He doesn't overplay like he does
on "When Dream and Day Unite" and his double kick drum technique is solid as a
rock. What a foundation for a rhythm section!!!(John Myung on bass doesn't hurt
either)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolf Man
James Wolf
You left out Ian Paice's finest moment: "Burn".
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolf Man
James Wolf
As far as rock drumming goes, Neil Peart definitely must be talked about. Not
only is he a great drummer in his own right, but he has influenced almost all
of today's better rock drummers-Scott Rockenfeld, Mike Portnoy, etc. When so
many modern drummers site the same drummer over and over again as an influence,
you know that drummer has to be doing something right.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolf Man
David Faulkner
>In article <1stpl1$u...@usenet.INS.CWRU.Edu> ss...@po.CWRU.Edu (Saiyad S. Shah) writes:
>>In my opinion Ian Paice (Deep Purple) is the best rock drummer.
>
> Yeah, Ian is good. He's not my fav, though...
>
>>By the way I was wondering who do you guys think is the finest rock
>>drummer.
>
> I'd have to make a toss up, but my favorites are: Rod Morgenstein,
>Scott Rockenfield, and Vinnie Appice.
> With those three, you get fusion/rock (Rod), progressive metal (Scott)
>and total power (Vinnie) :)
Everyone seems to have forgotten the man that made the Experience (after
Jimi, of course), Mitch Mitchell. Brilliant!
However, I have to give my No.1 rock drummer of all time to
JOHN BONHAM! JOHN HENRY BONHAM!
-dif-
--
Dave Faulkner, Research Engineer (d...@bhprtc.scpd.oz.au)
BHP Coated Products Division, Research and Technology Centre
Port Kembla, New South Wales, Australia.
David M. Cawthon
>I don't know if this category is restricted to live drummers, but the
>greatest rock drummer who ever lived is John Bonham. No question.
>Bonham's technical skills were superb, as evidenced by his live solos on
>Moby Dick, and recordings like Good Times Bad Times (yes, he played a
>single bass drum). But his true genious was in the simplicity of the
>parts he played with Zepplin, and the sheer raw power and sound of his
>drums.
>
>Listen to the crushing sound he gets on the intro on "When the Levee
>Breaks". It's a pattern that almost any novice could play, but no one
>could play quite like he does. The sounds he got out of his drums were
>unlike any heard before that time, and they have been copied by rock
>drummers ever since.
Amazing! Somebody out there actually shares my opinion of John Bonham
as one of the greatest drummers ever!
When I first started listening to Led Zeppelin about two years ago, I
noticed that my own drumming style sort of started to sound like John
Bonham's drumming, and eventually I was outright emulating him (I
guess playing along with the Zeppelin CDs could cause such a thing to
occur). Of course, now I've toned down and I just sort of "rip-off"
some of his more trademark fills.
Anyway, personally, I think that John Bonham was one of the most
incredible drummers who ever lived. It's just too bad he had to join
so many other musicians by dying way too early.
--
David M. Cawthon /// "
pf...@sdf.lonestar.org /// " - Anonymous
Dale J. Chavez - Colo Spgs
Jazz: Vinnie Coliauta or Dave Weckl
Rock: Rod Morgenstein
Funk: Dennis Chambers
There are so many good drummers, it's hard to play the "favorites" game. Each
drummer brings something unique to the sound. For example, what about big band
jazz? Again, Vinnie C., or Dave Weckl, Greg Bissonette (yes, that Greg) can
swing with the best. Check out the Buddy Rich Memorial video's for some of the
hottest drumming you'll ever see: Weckl, Vinnie C., Gadd, Bissonette, Chambers,
Hakim, Peart, Calhoun (yech), Steve Smith, Marvin Smitty Smith, Louis Bellson.
Of course, we all know, if you can't play jazz, you can't play. Well, except
for Will Calhoun...how overrated can you get?
What about pop/rock? Vinnie C. has everyone beat...hands down. Omar Hakim
ain't no slouch either. What about John Robinson...great session drummer.
Of course, the late great Jeff Porcaro and John Bonham.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dale Chavez ! Email:
Digital Equipment Corporation ! dch...@closus.dec.com
Information Delivery & Design Services ! !decwrl!closus.dec.com!dchavez
Colorado Springs, Colorado ! dchavez%closus.enet.dec.com
Nagendra Vashist Mishr
>Breaks". It's a pattern that almost any novice could play, but no one
>could play quite like he does. The sounds he got out of his drums were
>unlike any heard before that time, and they have been copied by rock
>drummers ever since.
Well if this is a part of what makes him so great in your eyes maybe
you should give credit where credit is due and note that Jimmy Page
and various engineers created this sound. Somebody told me that the
drum track for "When the Levee Breaks" was recorded with the drums set
up in the foyer or front hall of a large mansion with some of the
ambient mics set way up in the rafters . .
I am a total fan of Bonham and continue (after all these years) to be
amazed by his subtle complications but I think it is going too far to
credit him with the overall *sound* you hear on the recordings. I
think as drummers we naturally lean towards overlooking the part the
producer and engineer has in making us sound good and insist that raw
talent will out. But the truth is that greatest drummers in the world
can be made to sound like shit in the hands of bad producer (witness
Keith Moons tracks on "Tommy" - sounds like he's playing oatmeal
cartons)
I've always thought it funny that Page is/was so idolized as a guitar
god when he's not all that great on guitar and seemed to be ignored as
a producer when in my opinion he was one of the best . .
Gil Pilz posting from a stolen account
Doug Harbord
|> different one. For rock-only drummers, I'd include Ian, Tommy
|> Aldridge, and Alex Van Halen. I'm not including the likes of Neil
|> Peart, Stew, or Vinnie because they're on a much higher level than
|> what I consider to be a "rock" drummer. I also didn't include Matt
|> Sorrum because the guy couldn't play to save his big fat life. He's an
|> example of how it doesn't take much talent to get famous. He's the
|> Billy Ray Cyrus of the drumming world.
|>
|> Muff
Hallelujah to the Matt Sorum statement. I find it hard to accept this fat pig
as a drummer/percussionist. I would have to put my vote in for Greg Bissonette.
And he is is really a fusion/jazz/big band drummer at heart.
--
Doug Harbord Intergraph Corporation
Mail Stop IW17D2
(205)730-7779 b17d!justdoit!dwharbor
internet dwha...@justdoit.b17d.ingr.com
U58...@uicvm.uic.edu
says:
The question has been raised: Why doesn't Phil play now like he played on the
older Genesis albums (up through Duke or maybe Abacab) and Brand X albums?
Is it because he doesn't practice? Although I am sure that he has less time
and inclination to practice drums in his 'free time' now that he is a superstar
solo performer, producer, collaborator, lead singer, actor, etc., I don't think
that a lack of practicing is the real reason.
Rather, I would say that Phil's playing has changed along with his (and
Genesis') development as song writers and performers. Genesis doesn't *write*
songs like 'Supper's Ready', 'Firth of Fifth' or their other older, chop-heavy
tunes anymore. Phils music, both inside and outside of Genesis, has become
more pop. I would argue that Phil's drumming has changed accordingly. Like
most mature players, who no longer have something to prove to the world by
showing off their chops, Phil appears to be content to play to the *song*.
Phil's *songs* are pretty pop -- and, thus, so is his drumming.
Don't get me wrong. I love and miss Phil's old drumming. I was in love with
Genesis while I was learning to play the drums. Phil's playing up through
Abacab was a huge influence. I was incredibly inspired by the tom work, the
triplet-based fills over the bar, the sharp off-beat accents, the fantasic
bite and cut of his toms, etc. Without really thinking about it, I ended up
melding some of that into my own style.
But I have to appreciate Phil and Genesis' choice to evolve and change. I
don't really like the last couple of albums much, but a whole group of new
fans obviously do. This is a natural process. We've seen it before and we'll
see it again.
Finally, I'd point out that, whether its yesterday's art-rock or today's
pop-rock, Phil still sounds like Phil. The man has a sound (*and* a style)
that remains distinctive and discernable. The first time I heard the Tears
for Fears cut, 'Woman in Chains', despite the fact that someone else was
playing in the video, I *knew* it was Phil! While Phil is arguably not the
kind of drummer today he would have been had he stuck just to drumming, he
is still an engaging drummer with his own style and voice who consistenly
adds something special to the music for having played it. In the long run,
I would argue that is *these* are more fundamental to being a good musician
than how many notes you play in each song.
And thus ends my critique/explanation of Phil.... (:>)
Michael Levine
Maybe/Definitely
Chicago, IL
Phil Hildenbrand
Muff,
Thanks for touting the great Keltner...it's sad to know that the other
great Jim (Gordon) went bonkers and is now doing hard time. 8^(
The other player on the Sheffield cd is.....Ron Tutt.
Cheers, Phil
MuffinHead
> The other player on the Sheffield cd is.....Ron Tutt.
Jeez, I can't imagine how I forgot his name. For years, my nickname - and
my brother's - was Tut. I think that was the reason I first listened to this
album, because of Ron's last name. :)
Muff
MuffinHead
>Hakim, Peart, Calhoun (yech), Steve Smith, Marvin Smitty Smith, Louis Bellson.
>Of course, we all know, if you can't play jazz, you can't play. Well, except
>for Will Calhoun...how overrated can you get?
I was wondering what you don't like about Will's style. He has many of
the same independantly-funky qualities of Omar and Vinnie plus some wild
ideas of his own. Great power too. True, he isn't a jazz drummer, but I
don't think that was the point of the Buddy Rich memorial concert. Or
was it?
Muff
dan north
: Here are my favorites:
[ favourites deleted, but good selection! ]
Am I the only person completely blown away by Manu Katche?
I saw him on the Peter Gabriel "Point of View" video and sat there
dribbling for quite a while... The man has such an excellent sense of
space, and can really set a mood without appearing to try at all.
He also did some of the Tears for Fears "Seeds of Love" album (which
has Phil Collins sessioning quite respectably here and there, too -
shame he can't knock out any good stuff of his own :-)
I reckon Manu ought to be up there on these "best drummer in the world"
lists.
Or am I just being a cretin, and everyone means the best drummer *apart*
from the likes of Manu?
Just my 2p,
--
Dan North Crosfield Electronics Ltd DTP Department
Email: d...@crosfield.co.uk Phone: +44 442 230000 x3476
_______________________________________________________________________
Womble (n) : Used with a wombat, | "Girls are simply the prettiest things
for playing wom. | My cat and I believe" - Roger McGough
Karl Greenow
>
>Am I the only person completely blown away by Manu Katche?
>
Not at all, old chap. His work with Sting (Nothing Like The Sun) is
excellent. Actually, Sting seems to have the knack in picking
drummers. OK, so he probably didn't pick Stewart Copeland but he is
very good as well as Omar Hakim, who would have to be my choice for
top drummer alongside Simon Phillips when he was on top for in the
early 80's.
--
Karl Greenow : Heart of Gold, Nerves of Steel.... and a knob of butter
Fulcrum Communications Ltd, Fordrough Lane, Birmingham, B9 5LD, ENGLAND
All opinions expressed and opinions held are mine and mine alone.
E-Mail : ka...@fulcrum.co.uk Phone : +44 203 631553 (24hrs)
Royal-Mail : Flat 2, 34 Coundon Road, Coventry, CV1 4AW, England
Richard Dalton
>|> I couldn't name just one because tomorrow I'd want to name a
>|> different one. For rock-only drummers, I'd include Ian, Tommy
>|> Aldridge, and Alex Van Halen. I'm not including the likes of Neil
>|> Peart, Stew, or Vinnie because they're on a much higher level than
>|> what I consider to be a "rock" drummer. I also didn't include Matt
>|> Sorrum because the guy couldn't play to save his big fat life. He's an
>|> example of how it doesn't take much talent to get famous. He's the
>|> Billy Ray Cyrus of the drumming world.
>|>
>|> Muff
>Hallelujah to the Matt Sorum statement. I find it hard to accept this fat pig
>as a drummer/percussionist. I would have to put my vote in for Greg Bissonette.
>And he is is really a fusion/jazz/big band drummer at heart.
Yeah I saw Greg Bissonette earlier this year playing with Joe Satriani, he was
pretty awesome. (His brother was playing Bass with them too)
Rich 'Z'
===============================================================================
Richard Dalton | Computing Laboratory
Email: Richard...@Newcastle.ac.uk | University of Newcastle Upon Tyne
===============================================================================
Janne Salmi
-> Another of my all time favorites is Simon Phillips, he never ceases to amaze
-> me with his control and incredible bass pedal technique such as on Jeff Beck's
-> "There and Back" album. Does anyone know of other albums that Simon plays
-> on that show off his great talent?
On the albums I've heard him he usually is very subtle and doesn't
show off much. Mike Oldfield's "Discovery" has some of my favorite
cymbal fills.
Perhaps the best thing you could find is his solo EP "Protocol" or the
video "Super Drumming" that also features Ian Paice, Louie Bellson,
Cozy Powell, Nippy Noya (the percussionist) and Steve Schmidt (the bassist).
/janne
Paul Belfield - Production Operations Analyst
In article 29...@hpcvusn.cv.hp.com, ja...@cv.hp.com ( Jay Lundell ) writes:
>
>
>
>I don't know if this category is restricted to live drummers, but the
>greatest rock drummer who ever lived is John Bonham. No question.
>Bonham's technical skills were superb, as evidenced by his live solos on
>Moby Dick, and recordings like Good Times Bad Times (yes, he played a
>single bass drum). But his true genious was in the simplicity of the
>parts he played with Zepplin, and the sheer raw power and sound of his
>drums.
>
>Breaks". It's a pattern that almost any novice could play, but no one
>could play quite like he does. The sounds he got out of his drums were
>unlike any heard before that time, and they have been copied by rock
>drummers ever since.
>
This sound was achieved when recording on the road at Hedley Grange.
Basically their was a lot of leakage from the drums and they decided to
setup Bonzo with his drum kit at the bottom of the stairs, then they wired
up two microphones, one on the first landing of the stairs and one on the
second, everyone stnads back and Bonzo kicks in, what a sound.............
If you really want the ultimate drum sound check out the Led Zep Remasters
3 cd set. This is basically a cut down version of the 4cd set that was released a
while back, however the 3rd cd is an interview with Jimmy Page, John Paul
Jones and Robert Plant.
The first track on the interview cd has a tune on it called "Moby Dick/Bonzos
Montreaux". This is basically two Bonzo performances joined together in the
studio by Jimmy Page. According to Jimmy these were the two drum
performances and he didn't want to leave either of them out... so he simply
recorded the two together... sort of fortunate that the tempos of the two tracks
were exactly the same.....
Paul.
DAVID RE
>>Hallelujah to the Matt Sorum statement. I find it hard to accept this fat pig
>>as a drummer/percussionist. I would have to put my vote in for Greg Bissonette.
>
>pretty awesome. (His brother was playing Bass with them too)
I don't know about this, personally. I like a lot of what Greg played
when he as with DLR, but none of it was really really impressive. At the
Atlanta show with Joe, he played most of the grooves on the older stuff
real well, but his solo was definately nowhere near what I expected, after
hearing everyone (in the drumming community) tout him so much. I was really
disappointed. Of course, a guy has to compete with Rod Morgenstein to
impress me, so.....
As far as his brother goes, I could play bass better, and been a hell of
a lot closer on Mystical Potato Head Groove Thing, than just quarter notes...
--
Dave Re | "There's nothing to do when I check out!
Georgia Institute of Technology | So me and my hammer go house to house"
cco...@prism.gatech.edu | Kill Floor
| Galactic Cowboys
James Wolf
A lot of posters like John Bonham as one of the best drummers of all time. I have
to admit that his influence is widespread. Almost every drummer who hits the
drums hard and does the tom-tom-kick drum triplets (Cozy Powell, Lars Ulrich,
etc.) is influenced by John Bonham.
I guess I prefer finesse drummers. Bonham was fine for Zep-no more and no less
playing was appropriate. However, there are so many other drummers who are much
more imaginative rhythmically (is that a word ?) and dynamically (i.e. not always
killing the drums but varying the volume). Many drummers are much faster and use
their whole kit. Of course Neil Peart pops to mind. Others have mentioned Ian
Paice who is quite good. Mike Portnoy and Scott Rockenfeld are two of my
favorites. Clive Burr,formerly of Iron Maiden is also quite good-he has the
fastest high hat (great technique-all wrist) I've ever heard, not the kind of
sublety you would expect from a metal drummer.
I prefer all the aforementioned drummers to Bonham because they are so much more
imaginative. Don't get me wrong-Bonham's place in history is quite secure-but
my own personal preference is for drummers with more finesse and sublety than
just outright drum bashing.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolf Man
Doug Harbord
>
>The drum duet that Chester and Phil did was really ho-hum for the
>most part -- one super-fast, extended, all-right-I-get-the-point
>fast roll for each of them, a really stupid part where all they
>do is hit the rims of the drums, and that's the highlights.
I saw Chester Thompson at the 1991 PASIC show. I had heard alot of Genesis
material with him on it, but was not extremely impressed, until I saw him out
of that genre. He is an unbelievable drummer. Nothing like his style in Genesis.
And speaking of PASIC, if you are truely into drumming and percussion, I would
strongly advise attending this event. For the money and time you won't believe
what you will learn and see.
My $.02
go...@sensei.pfc.mit.edu
>Daniel Rouse, Jr. (cvaf...@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu) wrote:
>
>: Here are my favorites:
>
>[ favourites deleted, but good selection! ]
>
>Am I the only person completely blown away by Manu Katche?
>
Manu Katche is my personal favorite among todays recording drummers.
I haven't had a chance to see him play, but I'll definitely check out
the Peter Gabriel PoV video.
His playing on Robbie Robertson's self-titled album is wonderful, as
well as his subtle grooves and coloration on Jan Garbarek's "I Took Up
the Runes."
I'm anxious to see the Zildjian video he did called "Studio Grooves,"
I believe. Has anyone seen it available anywhere?
Horst
James R Lendino
>
>I guess I prefer finesse drummers. Bonham was fine for Zep-no more and no less
>playing was appropriate. However, there are so many other drummers who are much
>more imaginative rhythmically (is that a word ?) and dynamically (i.e. not always
>killing the drums but varying the volume). Many drummers are much faster and use
>their whole kit. Of course Neil Peart pops to mind. Others have mentioned Ian
>Paice who is quite good. Mike Portnoy and Scott Rockenfeld are two of my
>favorites. Clive Burr,formerly of Iron Maiden is also quite good-he has the
>fastest high hat (great technique-all wrist) I've ever heard, not the kind of
>sublety you would expect from a metal drummer.
>
>I prefer all the aforementioned drummers to Bonham because they are so much more
>imaginative. Don't get me wrong-Bonham's place in history is quite secure-but
>my own personal preference is for drummers with more finesse and sublety than
>just outright drum bashing.
I wouldn't exactly say that Mike Portnoy, while an excellent drummer,
is the last word on dynamics. His loud, overdone playing goes pefectly
with Dream Theater's style of course, and he does some pretty amazing
stuff , but I don't recall a single place on the Images and Words album
where he plays softly.
Finesse, definitely. Subtlety, well, not really. :=-
:-) (sorry about the poor eding--editing, I'm just getting used
to a new terminal program and haven't figured out how to set the backspace
key yet)
-JRL
______
James R. Lendino | |
Computer Science | i486 | Phone: (212)-853-7783
Columbia S.E.A.S. |______| Internet: jr...@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu
Dale J. Chavez - Colo Spgs
> I was wondering what you don't like about Will's style. He has many of
>the same independantly-funky qualities of Omar and Vinnie plus some wild
>ideas of his own. Great power too. True, he isn't a jazz drummer, but I
>don't think that was the point of the Buddy Rich memorial concert. Or
>was it?
Actually, I think it's a time for drummer's to display talent in a discipline
they don't normally participate in. Granted, Will's got some great chops,
but I don't think he was swinging the band ala Vinnie, Greg, et al. Even
Neil Peart did a pretty good job of swinging.
Steve Glenn
and Rod Morgenstein. These have been very good and very humbling.
The Vinnie tape is triplets and Quads all the way through and the
Alex Van Halen is a concert drum solo. My favorite is the Rod
Morgenstein.
Does anyone have any favorites that they would like to talk about.
Steve Glenn
Mike Porter
>pretty awesome. (His brother was playing Bass with them too)
> Rich 'Z'
>===============================================================================
Greg on the Buddy Rich Memorial tapes than I thought I'd be. Second off, I
thought he was kind of noisy on "The Extremist", and live, he and his brother
didn't compare very favourably to Jonathon Mover and Stu Hamm on his "Surfing
with the Alien" tour. Now THAT combination was downright hairy! Sorry to all
of Greg's fans out there, but he seems to have gotten sloppier over the years.
---Michael...
James Wolf
jr...@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (James R Lendino) writes:
|>
|> I wouldn't exactly say that Mike Portnoy, while an excellent drummer,
|> is the last word on dynamics. His loud, overdone playing goes pefectly
|> with Dream Theater's style of course, and he does some pretty amazing
|> stuff , but I don't recall a single place on the Images and Words album
|> where he plays softly.
|>
|> Finesse, definitely. Subtlety, well, not really. :=-
|>
I can recall a few places where Portnoy plays softly. "Another Day", before the
"They took pictures ..." part kicks in, has a nice little high hat pattern. The
"funk" part in the first verse of "Take the Time" also has some interesting
playing. The "Rush-like" middle section of "Learning to Live" also has some
subtle fills. One of my favorite Portnoy parts is in "Under a Glass Moon" during
the "Beneath the Summer Sky-Under a Glass Moon Night.." part. That whole section
is propelled by the rhythm section and Portnoy's subtle fills.
"Loud and Overdone" aren't really very flattering descriptions. I admit that
Dream Theater is busy on I&W, but not too much-the melodies tend to counteract
the business and keep things from getting out of hand.
"Loud and Overdone" is how I would describe Portnoy (and the rest of DT) on
their first album "When Dream and Day Unite". What do you think of that album?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolf Man
Daniel Rouse, Jr.
> Daniel Rouse, Jr. (cvaf...@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu) wrote:
>
> : Here are my favorites:
>
> [ favourites deleted, but good selection! ]
>
> Am I the only person completely blown away by Manu Katche?
>
> I saw him on the Peter Gabriel "Point of View" video and sat there
> dribbling for quite a while... The man has such an excellent sense of
> space, and can really set a mood without appearing to try at all.
>
> He also did some of the Tears for Fears "Seeds of Love" album (which
> has Phil Collins sessioning quite respectably here and there, too -
> shame he can't knock out any good stuff of his own :-)
>
> I reckon Manu ought to be up there on these "best drummer in the world"
> lists.
>
> Or am I just being a cretin, and everyone means the best drummer *apart*
> from the likes of Manu?
>
so happens that I prefer complex/up tempo music -- thus my choices in
durmmers. Manu is in fact a very creative/complex drummer, but the songs
he plays are rather slow. However, Manu is in fact, a very talented drummer,
and after all, this "Great Drummers" thread is really just everyone's opinion
(I have read in the past postinmg last year by some that Weckl was "overrated",
so it's all opinion really.) IMHO, any drummer who can consistently complement
a song and display some variety within the style of music he plays is a great
drummer.
>
> Just my 2p,
> --
> Dan North Crosfield Electronics Ltd DTP Department
> Email: d...@crosfield.co.uk Phone: +44 442 230000 x3476
> _______________________________________________________________________
> Womble (n) : Used with a wombat, | "Girls are simply the prettiest things
> for playing wom. | My cat and I believe" - Roger McGough
--
Signed,
Daniel W. Rouse, Jr. [Programmer, Percussionist, and Video Game Virtuoso]
Sophomore, Computer Science (Defected from Computer Engineering)
California State Polytechnic University, Pomona
E-mail address: CVAF...@CSUPOMONA.EDU
(909) 595-9132
The views and opinions expressed by me do not necessarily reflect the views
and opinions of California State Polytechnic Univeristy, Pomona, or any of its
students, faculty, or staff. They are mine and mine alone.
Dale J. Chavez - Colo Spgs
>Does anyone have any favorites that they would like to talk about.
Let's see, I have the following drum videos:
- Rod Morgenstein excellent video
- Steve Smith (Part 1) good video
- Dave Weckl (Parts 1,2) excellent videos
- Dennis Chambers good (not enough discussion on technique)
- Larry Londin excellent video
- Jeff Porcaro excellent (just not long enough)
- Weckl/Reyes Percussion good
- Greg Bissonette excellent
- Bobby Rock excellent (great workbook also)
Dale
Jay W. Yang
In article <1993May16...@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu>, cvaf...@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu (Daniel Rouse, Jr.) writes:
|>
|> Here are my favorites:
|>
|> Electric Jazz: Dave Weckl
|> Rock: Neil Peart
|> Pop: Vinnie Colauita
|> Metal: Lars Ulrich
|>
|> All the above drummers are great in my opinion because they
|> play more than just drums -- they play music. Each of their drum
|> parts perfectly matches the music they accompany, so they stand out
|> even when they don't have a solo!
|>
|> --
|>
Yes, I totally agree. I'd like to include another category:
Funk: Chad Smith (Chilli Peppers)
J
Kevin E Cosgrove
|- Rod Morgenstein excellent video
|- Steve Smith (Part 1) good video
|- Dave Weckl (Parts 1,2) excellent videos
|- Dennis Chambers good (not enough discussion on technique)
|- Larry Londin excellent video
|- Jeff Porcaro excellent (just not long enough)
|- Weckl/Reyes Percussion good
|- Greg Bissonette excellent
|- Bobby Rock excellent (great workbook also)
Would you care to comment on the content of the videos for
prospective buyers, like me. For instance, I've got Rod
Morgenstein's "Putting It All Together". The video is sectioned
into lessons, a ghost sticking lesson, a time counting lesson, a
double bass lesson, a "coming up with a part" lesson, a
listening lesson, and a "putting it all together" lesson. I
especially like the ghost sticking and odd time portions of the
video.
What do the other videos contain?
--
Kevin.E....@Tek.COM
Unless otherwise noted, the statements herein reflect my personal
opinions and not those of any organization with which I may be affiliated.
James R Lendino
>I can recall a few places where Portnoy plays softly. "Another Day", before the
>"They took pictures ..." part kicks in, has a nice little high hat pattern. The
>"funk" part in the first verse of "Take the Time" also has some interesting
>playing. The "Rush-like" middle section of "Learning to Live" also has some
>subtle fills. One of my favorite Portnoy parts is in "Under a Glass Moon" during
>the "Beneath the Summer Sky-Under a Glass Moon Night.." part. That whole section
>is propelled by the rhythm section and Portnoy's subtle fills.
>
>"Loud and Overdone" aren't really very flattering descriptions. I admit that
>Dream Theater is busy on I&W, but not too much-the melodies tend to counteract
>the business and keep things from getting out of hand.
Definitely true. I'm a pretty big Rush fan, though, so DT sometimes
comes across as "overdone" to me compared to Rush, at least
on I&W:
>"Loud and Overdone" is how I would describe Portnoy (and the rest of DT) on
>their first album "When Dream and Day Unite". What do you think of that album?
I'd love to answer that if I could only find a copy of the album. I've
been looking everywhere. Anyone know a store in the New York area that
has it? I've been to Tower Records, several outlets of the Wiz and
Sam Goody, J&R Music World... haven't tried HMV yet. Not to mention
many individual stores in Brooklyn where I live.
Since you have the album, James, what do you think of it compared
to I&W?
Regards,
Brian Cox
I have to agree. (Don't firebomb my house for saying so!) I think that
we all owe a debt of gratitude to John Bonham and Ginger Baker. These
guys altered the role of the drummer in Rock and Roll. (Look at how
we were thought of in the days of the Crickets and Elvis -- or even the
Beatles) But I feel that Bonham's time has past. JB raised the standard
(substantially) by which drummers were measured. But new guys have come
along and raised it higher. Better time, more accuracy, tighter with the
band. Some of them have forgotten how to pound. Others haven't. (I
have been impressed with Phil Collins' work on the Robert Plant albums)
((Actually, the part that tells me that I'm getting old is the fact that
these "new" guys I'm talking about are fading in the face of still newer
guys. Stop the world, I wanna get off!))
On a different, but related note: It's amazing what happens if you
take a stand and name your top 3. (Or top n, the number doesn't matter
as much.) Then a bunch of other people start naming people and you
think to yourself: "Oh yeah, I shoulda picked him!" "Oh gosh, he's
good too!" In that category I have to add Omar Hakim and Jeff Porcaro.
(You can't touch the shuffle in Rosanna -- unless maybe you're Rod M.)
Oh, and on the thread of Manu. I've seen him twice and also have PoV.
(Big Gabriel fan, always USED to wish he'd get a better drummer)
Manu is IMO even better live than in the studio. I read an interview
(Moder Drummer?) where he said that he had ballet lessons as a kid and
he tried to integrate some of the beauty of motion into his playing
style. This is evident when he plays. He's fun to watch and not just
for his chops. Has about the best time while playing of any drummer
I've seen. Downright infectious!
Jeez, I'd say "don't get me started", but it looks like someone already
did.
--BC--
--
"Stay within 17 minutes of the house, and if you see a flash, don't look at it!"
bri...@acuson.com (415) 694-5189 [ Work ] (408) 423-7710 [ Home ]
Last time I checked, I was not the official spokesmodel for ACUSON
Rob Mascaro
>In article 29...@hpcvusn.cv.hp.com, ja...@cv.hp.com ( Jay Lundell ) writes:
>>
>>
>>
>>I don't know if this category is restricted to live drummers, but the
>>greatest rock drummer who ever lived is John Bonham. No question.
>>Bonham's technical skills were superb, as evidenced by his live solos on
>>Moby Dick, and recordings like Good Times Bad Times (yes, he played a
>>single bass drum). But his true genious was in the simplicity of the
..Snore.... This is all so boring. Reading a bunch of metal heads talk about
how superb Matt Sorum is etc. We all know that the true greatest was buddy
rich and in the Jazz to Jazz fusion playing we see the most skills produced
to play. John Bonham while being a superb rock drummer (as with Keith Moon)
cannot even compare with the likes of Buddy, Weckl, Vinnie, Chambers, Bisonette
Gadd in terms of sheer *mastery* of the drum set.
If we are going to use the term "Greatest Drummer" lets do it in its context please.
rob.
--
###############################################################################
# Rob Mascaro, System Administrator | Phone: +61 9 4251804 #
# Perth, Western Australia | Email: r...@DIALix.oz.au #
###############################################################################
joseph.l.nastasi
Seriously. I love playing in bands and in a sequencer-backup situations
and, if I had to pick my favorite drummers (I am not in a position to
analyze technique), I'd love to play with (no special order): Bill
Bruford, Neil Peart, Cozy Powell (a better "P" for ELP IMHO).
I am always amazed by drummers who give us keyboardists a run for our
money as far as tone colors are concerned.
And, holy cow, a discussion about MUSIC on rec.music.makers.*!!!!!
Gotta love it!!!!!!
Cheers,
Joe Nastasi
nas...@mtgpfs1.att.com
Jay Lundell
: In <1tase7...@uk-news.uk.sun.com> pa...@whitesnake.uk.sun.com (Paul Belfield - Production Operations Analyst) writes:
:
:
: >In article 29...@hpcvusn.cv.hp.com, ja...@cv.hp.com ( Jay Lundell ) writes:
: >>
: >>
: >>
: >>I don't know if this category is restricted to live drummers, but the
: >>greatest rock drummer who ever lived is John Bonham. No question.
: >>Bonham's technical skills were superb, as evidenced by his live solos on
: >>Moby Dick, and recordings like Good Times Bad Times (yes, he played a
: >>single bass drum). But his true genious was in the simplicity of the
:
: ..Snore.... This is all so boring. Reading a bunch of metal heads talk about
: how superb Matt Sorum is etc. We all know that the true greatest was buddy
: rich and in the Jazz to Jazz fusion playing we see the most skills produced
: to play. John Bonham while being a superb rock drummer (as with Keith Moon)
: cannot even compare with the likes of Buddy, Weckl, Vinnie, Chambers, Bisonette
: Gadd in terms of sheer *mastery* of the drum set.
:
: If we are going to use the term "Greatest Drummer" lets do it in its context please.
The original post said:
> By the way I was wondering who do you guys think is the finest rock drummer.
^^^^
If you don't like the category, start your own notestring! There's nothing
more irritating than people who start flaming when they haven't even bothered
read what everyone's talking about.
- Jay
James Wolf
|> Flashy title, huh?
|>
|> Seriously. I love playing in bands and in a sequencer-backup situations
|> and, if I had to pick my favorite drummers (I am not in a position to
|> analyze technique), I'd love to play with (no special order): Bill
|> Bruford, Neil Peart, Cozy Powell (a better "P" for ELP IMHO).
This is a definitely a controversial opinion. The one thing I liked about Cozy
and ELPowell live was that Cozy didn't try to copy any Palmer riffs and instead
made the old ELP songs his own. Sometimes it worked-I remember Cozy doing a
cool double kick drum for one of the fills in "Knife Edge"-very appropriate.
I also like the double kick drum he laid down for the opening part of "Tarkus".
It made that opening really rock hard, which was appropriate. But for the most
part, I missed Carl's fast hands and superior technique and his Buddy Rich
influenced drum fills. Admittedly, he was a little too busy in his prime and
nowadays is nowhere near as exciting and creative as he was. I can also
understand why, as a keyboardist, you would prefer a steady backbeat like Cozy
provides.
One important note on Carl Palmer. He has, in a second generation way, influenced
many of today's rock drummers by directly influencing Neil Peart (who has gone on
to influence almost everybody).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolf Man
MuffinHead
>In article <C7Bu8...@cbnewsk.cb.att.com>, nas...@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (joseph.l.nastasi) writes:
>|> Bruford, Neil Peart, Cozy Powell (a better "P" for ELP IMHO).
I agree.
>part, I missed Carl's fast hands and superior technique and his Buddy Rich
>influenced drum fills. Admittedly, he was a little too busy in his prime and
This I can't understand. Now don't get me wrong. I've heard very little
ELP in my life. The most Carl Palmer I've heard was Asia when the damn
radio would play it over and over. The thing that always comes to mind
when Carl Palmer is mentioned is the way he rushed the bridge in "Heat of
the Moment" where he's just playing series of 8th notes on the snare.
And they're (the 8th notes) so uneven!
Muff
Mike Porter
>..Snore.... This is all so boring. Reading a bunch of metal heads talk about
>how superb Matt Sorum is etc. We all know that the true greatest was buddy
>rich and in the Jazz to Jazz fusion playing we see the most skills produced
>to play. John Bonham while being a superb rock drummer (as with Keith Moon)
>cannot even compare with the likes of Buddy, Weckl, Vinnie, Chambers, Bisonette
>Gadd in terms of sheer *mastery* of the drum set.
>If we are going to use the term "Greatest Drummer" lets do it in its context please.
>rob.
This is interesting. We have here a good example of the quintessential
"Jazz Snob". Now, personally, I can't touch most of these guys, but I've
already had my say about Greg Bissonette(sp?), and how sloppy HE'S become.
How come Buddy told Ed Shaugnessy(sp?) before their famous onstage battle:
"Now don't you play any of that Chinese off-tempo shit, because I can't
play that!"? Simple: everyone does what they do best! I've heard some very
good jazz drummers try to play with a rock band, and sound like absolute
shit because they simply don't have the feel. Not everyone can do everything!
There's room for more than one drummer on this earth, just like there's
more than one type of music! I'm not knocking jazz or fusion; quite to
the contrary, I listen to a lot of it. But there ARE other things in life,
and they're not all bad, and I'll bet YOU can't play them all, either!
---Michael...
Andrew Liles
>good jazz drummers try to play with a rock band, and sound like absolute
>shit because they simply don't have the feel. Not everyone can do everything!
>There's room for more than one drummer on this earth, just like there's
>more than one type of music! I'm not knocking jazz or fusion; quite to
>the contrary, I listen to a lot of it. But there ARE other things in life,
>and they're not all bad, and I'll bet YOU can't play them all, either!
> ---Michael...
>
Amen !!!!!
James Wolf
In article <1993May20....@news.columbia.edu>, jr...@cunixa.cc.columbia.edu (James R Lendino) writes:
|>
|>
|> I'm a pretty big Rush fan, though, so DT sometimes
|> comes across as "overdone" to me compared to Rush, at least on I&W.
I like Rush too and I find it interesting the way Peart has changed and grown. I
love him on "Roll the Bones". Who would've thought 10 years ago that Peart could
lay down almost danceable grooves?
WDADU is only available as an import so it is a bit hard to find. WDADU is an
interesting album, but it is a little too much in that metal/classical style
that has become kind of cliched. Portnoy, of course, has tons of chops and licks
throughout, and is overdone even to my tastes. Plus, he isn't using some of the
"Peart-isms" that he does on I&W-throwing triplets in the middle of a 16th note
drum roll, four point drum rolls, and in general using odd combinations of kick
drum, high hat, and toms for drum fills. He does show flashes of brilliance, but
in general he is all chops and not much maturity on WDADU.
Actually, last night I listened to I&W and paid special attention to your
assesment that Portnoy never plays softly and I now have to agree with you. Even
in his softer moments, he is always hitting the snare quite loudly. However,
this doesn't mean he doesn't play without dynamics-he actually goes from mildly
loud to very loud which I think is appropriate for Dream Theater. In particular,
he seems to pick the perfect spots to go to the double kick-drum backbeat to be
really loud and push the rest of the band forward. It's quite effective.
I guess it's Portnoy's style right now to be up there in front and play loud with
the rest of the band. I think his playing is perfect for DT as they are
right now. Maybe as DT matures and grows, he may change and develop a bit more
restraint. Actually, this is what happened to Peart. Up to the time of "Moving
Pictures", Peart is a very busy drummer. Now Peart, along with the rest of Rush,
tend to show more restraint which makes the times when he does show all his chops
much more effective.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolf Man
James Wolf
|> jw...@crchh882.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (James Wolf) writes:
|>
|> >In article <C7Bu8...@cbnewsk.cb.att.com>, nas...@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (joseph.l.nastasi) writes:
|> >|> Bruford, Neil Peart, Cozy Powell (a better "P" for ELP IMHO).
|>
|> I agree.
|>
|> >part, I missed Carl's fast hands and superior technique and his Buddy Rich
|> >influenced drum fills. Admittedly, he was a little too busy in his prime and
|>
|> This I can't understand. Now don't get me wrong. I've heard very little
|> ELP in my life. The most Carl Palmer I've heard was Asia when the damn
Then you haven't heard Carl in his prime. His drumming is amazing (although one
could argue a little on the busy side) from their self titled first album ("Tank"
on this album is classic Carl) up through Works Vol I. His solo on the live
album "Welcome Back My Friends...etc." is immortal. Check it out. Then tell
me what you think.
|> radio would play it over and over. The thing that always comes to mind
|> when Carl Palmer is mentioned is the way he rushed the bridge in "Heat of
|> the Moment" where he's just playing series of 8th notes on the snare.
|> And they're (the 8th notes) so uneven!
Carl was already over the hill by then-too bad.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolf Man
James Wolf
Thank you. You saved me some effort by saying exactly what I wanted to say.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wolf Man
James R Lendino
>Of course this has nothing to do with John Bonham anymore.
>
>love him on "Roll the Bones". Who would've thought 10 years ago that Peart could
>lay down almost danceable grooves?
Right? I find his drumming particularly impressive on Bravado -- I like
how he shifted one of his floor toms over to the left underneath his
hi-hat (he says so in the tourbook for the concert). And Where's My
Thing is a shoo-in, of course.
>|> In article <C7A80...@news.rich.bnr.ca> jw...@crchh882.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (James Wolf) writes:
>WDADU is only available as an import so it is a bit hard to find. WDADU is an
>interesting album, but it is a little too much in that metal/classical style
>that has become kind of cliched. Portnoy, of course, has tons of chops and licks
>throughout, and is overdone even to my tastes. Plus, he isn't using some of the
>"Peart-isms" that he does on I&W-throwing triplets in the middle of a 16th note
>drum roll, four point drum rolls, and in general using odd combinations of kick
>drum, high hat, and toms for drum fills. He does show flashes of brilliance, but
>in general he is all chops and not much maturity on WDADU.
Despite Portnoy's metal style, he is the most Peart-influenced drummer
I have heard in a while (though, as someone recently pointed out, Neil
influenced almost everyone these days). Though I guess you have to start
somewhere, huh?
>Actually, last night I listened to I&W and paid special attention to your
>assesment that Portnoy never plays softly and I now have to agree with you. Even
>in his softer moments, he is always hitting the snare quite loudly. However,
>this doesn't mean he doesn't play without dynamics-he actually goes from mildly
>loud to very loud which I think is appropriate for Dream Theater.
The first time I heard Images and Words, I listened for a few minutes
with my friend who owned the tape. My first word after hearing it
was "Jeez." (in reference to Portnoy's explosive playing). THEN I
said "wow, this is great." :-)
>In particular,
>he seems to pick the perfect spots to go to the double kick-drum backbeat to be
>really loud and push the rest of the band forward. It's quite effective.
The part that comes to mind is right in the middle of Pull Me Under.
"This world is spinning around me" (second time) at 3:25 or so in
the song. He first starts playing the snare on every eighth note
and then throws in thirty-second double-bass rolls that shake the
room. (I arbitrarily assigned "eighth notes" because at this
point he is playing twice as fast as normal for the song).
Incredible stuff. Exceedingly simple but very powerful.
>I guess it's Portnoy's style right now to be up there in front and play loud with
>the rest of the band. I think his playing is perfect for DT as they are
>right now. Maybe as DT matures and grows, he may change and develop a bit more
>restraint. Actually, this is what happened to Peart. Up to the time of "Moving
>Pictures", Peart is a very busy drummer. Now Peart, along with the rest of Rush,
>tend to show more restraint which makes the times when he does show all his chops
>much more effective.
I listen to songs like Natural Science (Permanent Waves, 1980) and
marvel at Neil's control and sheer ability. And then I listen to
Where's My Thing, in the center low-key section, and I don't even
know what to say. :-)
Sigh... one day.
Of course, then we have drummers who get worse as they get older,
like Phil Collins. Who, incidently, I still think is good.
I just can't believe how great he used to be (circa '72-'73).
STEVE CARSELLO Xxxxx Ppppp
I think Ian Paice is awesome too, but Neil Peart is
a machine with more intensity than any drummer
I've ever seen. Simon Phillips plays outrageous stuff.
Rob Mascaro
>This is interesting. We have here a good example of the quintessential
>"Jazz Snob". Now, personally, I can't touch most of these guys, but I've
>already had my say about Greg Bissonette(sp?), and how sloppy HE'S become.
>How come Buddy told Ed Shaugnessy(sp?) before their famous onstage battle:
>"Now don't you play any of that Chinese off-tempo shit, because I can't
Well I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that a drummer has "slipped" . Did you see him live yesterday or something. I happened to see him
in a clinic very recently and he has done anything but slipped. What I can't
stand is people who come to these "wild" conclusions because the drummer
is not in the limelight at the moment.
For your info I am a *ROCK* drummer who appreciates the incredible skill
needed to play Fusion, not a jazz snob. The article is about "great drummers"
whom most are not "rock" drummers (they are all kinds). I mean would you
call Vinnie a great rock drummer ** I would **. Open your ears because
some of the so called Jazz drummers/Latin etc.. are better rock drummers then they are.
Mike Porter
>In <1993May20.1...@mlb.semi.harris.com> m...@suntan.mlb.semi.harris.com (Mike Porter) writes:
>>This is interesting. We have here a good example of the quintessential
>>"Jazz Snob". Now, personally, I can't touch most of these guys, but I've
>>already had my say about Greg Bissonette(sp?), and how sloppy HE'S become.
>>How come Buddy told Ed Shaugnessy(sp?) before their famous onstage battle:
>>"Now don't you play any of that Chinese off-tempo shit, because I can't
>
>Well I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that a drummer has "slipped" . Did you see him live yesterday or something. I happened to see him
>in a clinic very recently and he has done anything but slipped. What I can't
>stand is people who come to these "wild" conclusions because the drummer
>is not in the limelight at the moment.
>For your info I am a *ROCK* drummer who appreciates the incredible skill
>needed to play Fusion, not a jazz snob. The article is about "great drummers"
>whom most are not "rock" drummers (they are all kinds). I mean would you
>call Vinnie a great rock drummer ** I would **. Open your ears because
>some of the so called Jazz drummers/Latin etc.. are better rock drummers then they are.
Bissonette was SLOPPY with Satriani, both on the album AND on tour. If you
listen to the album, there are times when he's thrashing his hi-hats so hard,
so open, that it becomes a total wash and you can't even tell where the beat
is. THAT is the type of playing that sounds "sloppy" to me. It probably has
something to do with the inclusion of his brother as the other half of the
rhythm section. He didn't sound that sloppy with Roth and Vai and Sheehan,
that's for sure!! But on Roth's last one, and Satch's latest release, he
sounded like he'd went downhill a bit to me. I don't think much of his
brother as a bassist, and I think it may be dragging him down. Now this is
MY opinion, as to the quality of his playing. However, I think it's evident
to EVERYONE that he has changed over time, for good or ill.
Some jazz drummers can play rock very well. SOME CAN'T! I know; I've
worked with some who can swing with the best of them, but can't lay down a
heavy driving rock beat to save their ass! My ears are open, man, and so is
my mind. I know! I've had to teach some of these guys what a straight 4
(unswung) is! The trick is to realize your limitations, work on them, and not
display your weaknesses to an audience until they become strengths. As I said
before, EVERYONE is different, everyone PLAYS a bit different, and we all have
differing strengths and weaknesses, even the GREATS (Buddy Rich shows that
clearly)! It's not a crime, it's normal. Yes, I think it takes less talent
to play with the Stones than it does Chick Corea (yeah, yeah, IMHO, okay?), but
that doesn't apply to Dream Theatre and Rush and Yes and etc. There are some
good jazz drummers who wouldn't function well at all in that arena.
Well, I've blathered on far too long. Let's not make this a flame fest.
It might be interesting, however, to discuss some examples of drummers playing
out of their element, and how well they did (the Buddy Rich Memorial tapes
come immediately to mind). Anyone got any good lines on this? Like when Ed
Shaugnessy played behind Hendrix because Mitch was sick? Ed did a very
credible job; I think one of his best qualties is his ability to be a
chameleon.
---Michael...
joseph.l.nastasi
> In article <C7Bu8...@cbnewsk.cb.att.com>, nas...@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (joseph.l.nastasi) writes:
> |> Bruford, Neil Peart, Cozy Powell (a better "P" for ELP IMHO).
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> This is a definitely a controversial opinion. The one thing I liked about Cozy
> and ELPowell live was that Cozy didn't try to copy any Palmer riffs and instead
> made the old ELP songs his own. Sometimes it worked-I remember Cozy doing a
> cool double kick drum for one of the fills in "Knife Edge"-very appropriate.
> I also like the double kick drum he laid down for the opening part of "Tarkus".
> It made that opening really rock hard, which was appropriate. But for the most
> part, I missed Carl's fast hands and superior technique and his Buddy Rich
> influenced drum fills. Admittedly, he was a little too busy in his prime and
> nowadays is nowhere near as exciting and creative as he was. I can also
> understand why, as a keyboardist, you would prefer a steady backbeat like Cozy
> provides.
All your points are right on! I did miss *some* of Carl's fills, but
Cozy really gave ELP songs a solid foundation, that Carl doesn't.
>
> One important note on Carl Palmer. He has, in a second generation way, influenced
> many of today's rock drummers by directly influencing Neil Peart (who has gone on
> to influence almost everybody).
I LOVE some of Carl's solos (Tocatta, for example). And even my father
who is not musical, made the comment "he makes the drums sound like
they're talking"
BTW, someone mentioned Hans Blathet from Triumviate. LOVE that guy's
drumming. I would have mentioned him but I forgot his name. And
keeping with ELP, I sorta with that Greg Lake would develop a ballsier
bass sound (ala' Squire, etc). He gets lost sometimes. Gee, I hope
ELP has internet access, they'd get some great suggestions! :-)
> Wolf Man
Joe Nastasi
Brian Cox
See, this is where I disagree. I think that Neil Peart is terrific.
Does stuff with more speed and accuracy than a human ought to be able
to. But I don't always get his intensity. Too sterile sounding. I
also feel like he repeats himself a bit from album to album.
I have to say he sure put it all together for the Moving Pictures
album. A classic drummer's album.
Brian Cox
>jw...@crchh882.NoSubdomain.NoDomain (James Wolf) writes:
> I agree.
>Muff
You should listen to Tarkus. The first side has lots of syncopation, starts
and stops. Carl is occasionally late in his entrances and his time doesn't
always match the keyboards. But I can't really envision anyone else playing
on that album...
Brian Kauffman
========================================================================
> {...] Simple: everyone does what they do best! I've heard some very
>good jazz drummers try to play with a rock band, and sound like absolute
>shit because they simply don't have the feel. Not everyone can do everything!
Amen! Amen!
If I had a dollar for every time I saw a great (local) jazz drummer
make fool of themself by trying to play a basic rock beat, well, I could
afford 2 or 3 pairs of new sticks.
And if I had a dollar for every time I saw a great (local) jazz drummer
condescendingly snicker at the mere thought of playing a "trivial" rock beat
proceed to make fool of themself by trying to play one, I could afford 1 or 2
pairs of new sticks.
Also, there's a reason why Jim Keltner, et al use Ringo Starr (for example)
as a role model, and most rock drummers would be wise to think about why.
-Brian
James R Lendino
>car...@pts.mot.com ( STEVE CARSELLO Xxxxx Ppppp ) writes:
>
>>My favorite drummers are Neil Peart and Simon Phillips.
>>I think Ian Paice is awesome too, but Neil Peart is
>>a machine with more intensity than any drummer
>>I've ever seen. Simon Phillips plays outrageous stuff.
>
>See, this is where I disagree. I think that Neil Peart is terrific.
>Does stuff with more speed and accuracy than a human ought to be able
>to. But I don't always get his intensity. Too sterile sounding. I
>also feel like he repeats himself a bit from album to album.
>I have to say he sure put it all together for the Moving Pictures
>album. A classic drummer's album.
Have you listened to Roll the Bones (the album, not the song)? Neil
does some pretty expressive playing on Bravado and Ghost of a Chance.
Sir Prize!!!
>In article <1993May16...@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu>, cvaf...@vmsb.is.csupomona.edu (Daniel Rouse, Jr.) writes:
>|>
>|> Here are my favorites:
>|>
>|> Electric Jazz: Dave Weckl
>|> Rock: Neil Peart
>|> Pop: Vinnie Colauita
>|> Metal: Lars Ulrich
>Yes, I totally agree. I'd like to include another category:
> Funk: Chad Smith (Chilli Peppers)
I'd have to say my favorite rock drummer, and just plain favorite overall,
is Terry Bozzio. The man just does things that are beyond my comprehension,
along with Weckl and Colaiuta. While I love Rush and admire Neil Peart, I
think Bozzio's at lease one or two notches higher.
And for funk.....David Garibaldi. 'nuff said. :)
* * * * * * * * * * ** ** *** **** ****** *********
Jesse Chang (Sir Prize!!!) k...@squid.ucsb.edu / usl...@mcl.ucsb.edu *
"-.-- -.-- --.." "Technology - high, on the leading edge of life." -Rush *
* * * * * * * * * ** ** *** **** ****** ********
Rob Mascaro
>In article <1993May20.1...@mlb.semi.harris.com> m...@suntan.mlb.semi.harris.com (Mike Porter) writes:
>========================================================================
>> {...] Simple: everyone does what they do best! I've heard some very
>>good jazz drummers try to play with a rock band, and sound like absolute
>>shit because they simply don't have the feel. Not everyone can do everything!
>Amen! Amen!
>If I had a dollar for every time I saw a great (local) jazz drummer
>make fool of themself by trying to play a basic rock beat, well, I could
>afford 2 or 3 pairs of new sticks.
Open your ears to the wonderful different styles of music and drumming, you
may just learn that Latin, Jazz, Fusion and even African styles of music
will broaden your narrow views.
I bet if the local Rock drummer had to play Jazz he would make even more
of a fool of himself.
Oh and by the way, if Ringo Starr was not in the Beatles he would be a nobody,
his drumming was not "ground breaking". Take a listen to some of the soul
drummers around at that time, they were in another class, period.
Brian Kauffman
Seems to me one of the main criteria for winning such an award is
a high profile. I know he's on the new Sting CD (and probably one of
the best things happening there, tastefully understated odd-time stuff),
but what else has he been up to lately?
-Brian
Mike Porter
>In <1993May21.1...@ncar.ucar.edu> ka...@neit.cgd.ucar.edu (Brian Kauffman) writes:
>>In article <1993May20.1...@mlb.semi.harris.com> m...@suntan.mlb.semi.harris.com (Mike Porter) writes:
>>> {...] Simple: everyone does what they do best! I've heard some very
>>>good jazz drummers try to play with a rock band, and sound like absolute
>>>shit because they simply don't have the feel. Not everyone can do everything!
>>Amen! Amen!
>>If I had a dollar for every time I saw a great (local) jazz drummer
>>make fool of themself by trying to play a basic rock beat, well, I could
>>afford 2 or 3 pairs of new sticks.
>
>Open your ears to the wonderful different styles of music and drumming, you
>may just learn that Latin, Jazz, Fusion and even African styles of music
>will broaden your narrow views.
>I bet if the local Rock drummer had to play Jazz he would make even more
>of a fool of himself.
>Oh and by the way, if Ringo Starr was not in the Beatles he would be a nobody,
>his drumming was not "ground breaking". Take a listen to some of the soul
>drummers around at that time, they were in another class, period.
Obviously you haven't been following or reading this thread very well. "Open
ears" are exactly what we were advocating, and not "style snobbishness". Also,
the thread was saying (litterally, see above) that no drummer is a master of
ALL styles.
I don't think of Ringo as ground-breaking, either. Solid tempo, but not
much more.
Maybe you should get a direction-finder for your flame-thrower.
---Michael...
Dale J. Chavez - Colo Spgs
>Seems to me one of the main criteria for winning such an award is
>a high profile. I know he's on the new Sting CD (and probably one of
>the best things happening there, tastefully understated odd-time stuff),
>but what else has he been up to lately?
He's actually been with Sting since the Soul Cages tour. I have a Soul Cages
live video with Vinnie drumming and as always, he's incredible. I also
saw Sting last Thursday at Red Rocks in Denver with Vinnie drumming...the
man is simply unbelievable. He's one of the few drummers that can play
odd-time with feeling...not the "isn't this cool...I can play in odd time"
attitude most drummers have.
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dale Chavez ! Email:
Digital Equipment Corporation ! dch...@closus.dec.com
Information Delivery & Design Services ! !decwrl!closus.dec.com!dchavez
Colorado Springs, Colorado ! dchavez%closus.enet.dec.com
MuffinHead
This has always bugged me. Sure, Neil always wins at least one award.
But then there are these virtual nobodys winning first place in the Metal
category because their album is in more teenagers' homes than are
skateboards, or the guy from Nirvana winning Up & Coming even though he
really isn't a drummer, but because every little fuck in America (and then
some) can play Smells Like on the guitar.
The MD poll isn't so much "who has talent", but "who is popular right now."
Muff
Bryan David King
I saw him at the Sting concert at Berkely. DAMN!! The entire night I was
focused on him. I barely noticed everything else that was happening. My only
regret is that I was probably one of the only people there (aside from other
drummers) who could really appreciate how good he is. Some of the most amazing
stuff he did was so subtle you had to be looking for it.
-Bryan
Brian Kauffman
>> = ka...@neit.cgd.ucar.edu (Brian Kauffman) writes:
mp> = m...@suntan.mlb.semi.harris.com (Mike Porter) writes:
========================================================================
mp>good jazz drummers try to play with a rock band, and sound like absolute
mp>shit because they simply don't have the feel. Not everyone can do everything!
>>Amen! Amen!
>>
>>If I had a dollar for every time I saw a great (local) jazz drummer
>>make fool of themself by trying to play a basic rock beat, well, I could
>>afford 2 or 3 pairs of new sticks.
>Open your ears to the wonderful different styles of music and drumming, you
>may just learn that Latin, Jazz, Fusion and even African styles of music
>will broaden your narrow views.
Huh? You don't know jack-shit about me.
You haven't got a clue as to how broad or narrow my influences are.
>I bet if the local Rock drummer had to play Jazz he would make even more
>of a fool of himself.
That kinda depends on whether they can also play jazz or not, doesn't it?
The point is: expertise in one style does not imply or even suggest
competence in another style. And in particular, expertise in a technically
demanding style (perhaps jazz) does not imply competence in a less
technically demanding style (perhaps Beatles covers).
The humbling truth of this is periodically demonstrated in local clubs.
>Oh and by the way, if Ringo Starr was not in the Beatles he would be a nobody,
>his drumming was not "ground breaking". Take a listen to some of the soul
>drummers around at that time, they were in another class, period.
o So why don't you go tell Jim Keltner he's been an idiot all these years
for using Ringo as a role model? I'm sure he'll appreciate your superior
insight.
o there are all kinds of "classes" of drummers, eg "Latin, Jazz, Fusion and
even African styles". If you think you can make a blanket statement that
"soul drummers", or Chick Webb, or Airto, or Collin Walcott, or whoever,
is better than Ringo Starr, then you're completely missing the point.
Can you say "apples and oranges"? Sure. I knew you could.
-Brian
Jay Lundell
name is pronounced, right?
Here's my guess:
Colauita - kole-low-EE-ta
Jay (or should I just use god) Lundell
Matt Thallmayer
: In article <C7Bu8...@cbnewsk.cb.att.com>, nas...@cbnewsk.cb.att.com (joseph.l.nastasi) writes:
: One important note on Carl Palmer. He has, in a second generation way, influenced
: many of today's rock drummers by directly influencing Neil Peart (who has gone on
: to influence almost everybody).
: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Wolf Man
_______________________________________________________________________________
I would like to put forth the proposition that Palmer influenced many directly.
He was one of the first ( and definitely the first high-profile) people
to work with drum triggered synthesizers, the predecessor of all-electronic
percussion. His 1973 drum solo in "Tocatta" didn't use the devices to
substitute an electronic percussion sound for an acoustic one (which is also
valid), but to create a synthesized sound collage of an animal menagerie.
This piece also featured timpani and tubular bells.
Mathias
Jukka A Virtanen
>So you folks that have seen him play in concert probably know how his
>name is pronounced, right?
>Here's my guess:
> Colauita - kole-low-EE-ta
Well, first you should probably try to spell it correctly. :)
It's C O L A I U T A .
I would guess it's pronounced kol-i-uta. COL as in 'protoCOL', AI as in
'I' or 'eye' and UTA as in 'UTAh'.
>Jay (or should I just use god) Lundell
--
.....................................................
: Universitas : Jukka A Virtanen :
: Helsingiensis : juvi...@helsinki.fi :
:.....................:.............................:
Rob Mascaro
>In article <1tqpk8$j...@DIALix.oz.au> r...@DIALix.oz.au (Rob Mascaro) writes:
>>In <1993May21.1...@ncar.ucar.edu> ka...@neit.cgd.ucar.edu (Brian Kauffman) writes:
>>>In article <1993May20.1...@mlb.semi.harris.com> m...@suntan.mlb.semi.harris.com (Mike Porter) writes:
>>>> {...] Simple: everyone does what they do best! I've heard some very
>>>>good jazz drummers try to play with a rock band, and sound like absolute
>>>>shit because they simply don't have the feel. Not everyone can do everything!
>>
>>Open your ears to the wonderful different styles of music and drumming, you
>>may just learn that Latin, Jazz, Fusion and even African styles of music
>>will broaden your narrow views.
>>I bet if the local Rock drummer had to play Jazz he would make even more
>>of a fool of himself.
>================================================================================
>Obviously you haven't been following or reading this thread very well. "Open
>ears" are exactly what we were advocating, and not "style snobbishness". Also,
>the thread was saying (litterally, see above) that no drummer is a master of
>ALL styles.
Well well, if you had taken the time to read my article properly that is
just what i was saying.
>>Open your ears to the wonderful different styles of music and drumming, you
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
at no stage did I mention one style being superior to another. If you had
of bothered to read the article properly you may of noticed that in fact
I counteracted the common (silly) belief that if you play good Jazz, you
can not possibly be able to lay down a good rock beat (this seems to stem
from narrow minded rock players).
--
###############################################################################
# Rob Mascaro, System Administrator | Phone: +61 9 4251804 #
Mike Porter
>at no stage did I mention one style being superior to another. If you had
>of bothered to read the article properly you may of noticed that in fact
>I counteracted the common (silly) belief that if you play good Jazz, you
>can not possibly be able to lay down a good rock beat (this seems to stem
>from narrow minded rock players).
In one sentence you claim that one style isn't superior, then you resume the
"Jazz Snob" routine. I never said that all jazz players can't play rock,
merely that SOME can't. I KNOW; I've worked with them. Some can, obviously,
or we wouldn't have Mover or Morganstein or Bissonette (please ignore any
spelling errors; I'm not real good with names). But the PROFESSIONALS clearly
state in some interviews (Buddy Rich was the example that I used, but there
are others) that they have problem areas, sometimes with seemingly simple
things. Your statement seems to assert the supposed superiority of jazz above
other styles; maybe these guys are rock drummers who can play jazz, eh?
---Michael...
Brian Kauffman
>> = ja...@cv.hp.com ( Jay Lundell ) writes:
========================================================================
>>So you folks that have seen him play in concert probably know how his
>>name is pronounced, right?
>>
>>Here's my guess:
>>
>> Colauita - kole-low-EE-ta
>Well, first you should probably try to spell it correctly. :)
>
>It's C O L A I U T A .
>
>I would guess it's pronounced kol-i-uta. COL as in 'protoCOL', AI as in
>'I' or 'eye' and UTA as in 'UTAh'.
According to Mary on Joe's Garage, it's col-a-YOU-ta
col as in collar
a as in a drummer
you as in hello to ewe
ta as in ta-bla
-Brian
Dave Curado
Vinnie on most of the tunes. Yup, the guy is unbelievable.
However, taking the risk of getting flamed to death...
It could be that I just haven't listened to enough of Vinnie's
playing, but while Vinnie is obviously an incredibly talented
musician, the ideas and statements he makes on his instrument don't
hit home for me, the way that some other drummer's statements do.
When I listen to people like Chad Wackerman, Tony Williams, Gary Husband,
or Bill Bruford -- the ideas they express just feel stronger -- it's
easier for "what they said" to sink in -- so to speak.
All the musicians I mentioned are great -- and I certainly don't want
to start a "so and so is better than so and so" thread. I just was
wondering if anyone else has similar tastes.
Dave C>
deborah lynn gillaspie
trash a part written for drum kit. True, it was one of those awful
"Swingle Singers" Bach things, but the part was a simple "boom-chick"
with an occasional swipe at a crash cymbal. The poor guy had obviously
overlooked kit in his education, with disasterous effects. My husband
had to keep poking me to keep my giggles in line. The worst of it was,
it was obviously a rented kit, and nobody thought to check whether the
cymbals were appropriate for the music. At one point, the poor guy hit
what sounded like a china-boy, which gave out with a shuddering crash
that all but drowned the singers in their delicate little scat singing
(ugh. I like my Bach straight.<g>) .... A good argument
for keeping an open mind about drumming styles. Apparently hubris got
this guy into a tight spot -- he probably looked at the part, figured it
was easy, and didn't practice it on a kit, then proceeded to dig himself
and the ensemble into a hole. Yet later in the concert, he performed his
percussion parts with style and grace. I found the whole thing to be
a useful cautionary lesson.
--Debbie
--
******************************************************************
* Internet: d-gil...@uchicago.edu OR dl...@midway.uchicago.edu *
* Bitnet: dlg1%midway@uchicago *
* *
Dale J. Chavez - Colo Spgs
>It could be that I just haven't listened to enough of Vinnie's
>playing, but while Vinnie is obviously an incredibly talented
>musician, the ideas and statements he makes on his instrument don't
>hit home for me, the way that some other drummer's statements do.
Dave, I respect your opinion (and the way you approached it). I'm a huge
Vinnie fan now, though it took some time for me to appreciate the feeling
he plays with. Sometimes technical prowess gets in the way (ala Weckl), but
with Vinnie you get the best of both worlds.
Check out the live video of Sting's Soul Cages concert with Vinnie playing.
He plays some wonderful rock/pop tunes with the best, while adding
occasional unbelievable fills.
Also, though I haven't heard this, Vinnie plays on an older Gino Vanelli
album that is pure pop/rock. I've heard he does a great job.
SPW...@psuvm.psu.edu
>
>However, taking the risk of getting flamed to death...
>It could be that I just haven't listened to enough of Vinnie's
>playing, but while Vinnie is obviously an incredibly talented
>musician, the ideas and statements he makes on his instrument don't
>hit home for me, the way that some other drummer's statements do.
>
Well, at the risk of ME getting flamed to death, I think I tend to agree with
you -- also with the disclaimer that I haven't listened to much of his work
besides that with Sting. I think he lacks personality in his drumming... not
_feeling_ mind you, but personality. I don't think you can listen to him play,
and say "Hey, that must be Vinnie!" It's almost as if he's _too_ versatile to
make his own statement on the drums. Working with Sting, he has changed the
way he plays to emulate Stewart Copeland (some people may disagree, but I don't
see how), therefore losing some of his own "personality". Hmmm... I don't
know if this makes sense, but it does to me.
To this, I must add, that I _love_ Vinnie Coluiata's work with Sting. I'm
not saying he's trying to be a Copeland clone, he's just picked up a few
"Copelandisms" -- maybe a few more than the other drummers that have played
with Sting. So, I'm not trying to say he's some human drum machine or emulator
or something. His playing is very much full of feeling. And that's what I
like.. A little spontaneous action in there, which is why (I'm really
gonna get flamed now) I don't really care much for Neil Peart's drumming.
Rob Mascaro
If you bothered to read the article correctly you would of noticed
that in fact I was pointing out that Ringo is only admired because of
the band he was in (it made him a famous drummer, not the other way around).
Rob Mascaro
>> = juvi...@klaava.Helsinki.FI (Jukka A Virtanen) writes:
>>> = ja...@cv.hp.com ( Jay Lundell ) writes:
>========================================================================
>According to Mary on Joe's Garage, it's col-a-YOU-ta
> col as in collar
> a as in a drummer
> you as in hello to ewe
> ta as in ta-bla
This is quite correct. It is an Italian name and this is how they
would pronounce it (except the "you" should be "ooh").
Rob.
Doug Cook
> Oh and by the way, if Ringo Starr was not in the Beatles he would be a nobody,
> his drumming was not "ground breaking". Take a listen to some of the soul
> drummers around at that time, they were in another class, period.
Funny you should mention it. One of the soul drummers around at the
time, Bernard Purdie, actually played the drum parts on a number of
recorded Beatles tunes. They called him in because Ringo's part was
off.
-Doug
go...@bright.pfc.mit.edu
>Bernard Purdie actually played the drum parts on a number of
>recorded Beatles tunes. They called him in because Ringo's part was
>off.
> -Doug
I remember reading an interview with Purdie in MD, and he mentioned that it
was time the facts came out about what really happened in the studio. However,
he didn't mention any specific songs/albums. Did he elaborate on this since
then, or does anyone know anything more about this?
Horst
Pat Inglis
> I think he lacks personality in his drumming... not
>_feeling_ mind you, but personality. I don't think you can listen to him play,
>and say "Hey, that must be Vinnie!" It's almost as if he's _too_ versatile to
>make his own statement on the drums. Working with Sting, he has changed the
I'm not gonna flame you yet, althought there are probably a lot of
Vinnie fans with their finger on the 'f' key. =:-)
The first time I heard Jennifer Warren's "Famous Blue Raincoat" CD, I
thought that the drumming was exceptionally well done. Of course, I
didn't know it was Vinnie at the time, but I thought whoever it was sounded
alot like him. Then I was over at someone's place who had the CD and I
checked the liner notes...sure enough, it was Vinnie!
It's true that his unobtrusive style takes a while to pick out but it is
very distinguishable one you bacome familiar with some of his patterns.
--
___ { Pat Inglis, Mortice Kern Systems, Inc.
| __ =I= { 35 King St N, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada N2J 2W9
| / \[_]| { vox:519-884-2251 fax:519-882-8861
/ \ \__/ I/|\ { Internet:p...@mks.com UUCP:mks!p...@watserv1.uwaterloo.ca
go...@bright.pfc.mit.edu
>
>It's true that his unobtrusive style takes a while to pick out but it is
>very distinguishable one you bacome familiar with some of his patterns.
I assume Vinnie has played on hundreds of recordings, and for those of us
unfamiliar with his work, it might be a little difficult to find out what
he has played on. Does anyone have a discography of albums he's played on?
Even a partial discography would be helpful.
Horst
(I'll compile a list if several people post different titles.)
Mike Guttman
>I've been listening to Alan Holdsworth's _Secrets_ which features
>Vinnie on most of the tunes. Yup, the guy is unbelievable.
>
>However, taking the risk of getting flamed to death...
>It could be that I just haven't listened to enough of Vinnie's
>playing, but while Vinnie is obviously an incredibly talented
>musician, the ideas and statements he makes on his instrument don't
>hit home for me, the way that some other drummer's statements do.
Vinnie's ideas are often quite complicated and difficult to absorb.
He's one of the few drummers who constantly plays stuff that I can't
figure out on one or two listenings.
Have you guys listened to him on Allan Holdworth's newest CD? (WT) He's
on the tune with vocals. I mean, put on the headphones and check out
all the twisted stuff. I must have listened to this track 50 times in
the last couple of weeks. Jeez!
>When I listen to people like Chad Wackerman, Tony Williams, Gary Husband,
>or Bill Bruford -- the ideas they express just feel stronger -- it's
>easier for "what they said" to sink in -- so to speak.
No disgreement with this. All these guys are marvelous - and very different.
I think that Vinnie tends to tread "the edge" more, so you need your thinking cap.
>All the musicians I mentioned are great -- and I certainly don't want
>to start a "so and so is better than so and so" thread. I just was
>wondering if anyone else has similar tastes.
I hope we all agree that such a comparison is usually inappropriate and boring.
I don't usually listen to Vinnie for groove playing - I always thought
he was too impatient to be a groove specialist. There are guys like
Purdie, Gadd, Keltner, Marotta, etc., for that. Listen to Vinnie when
you want to hear effortless use of polyrythms in improvisation and
seemless transition from one rediculous phrase to the next.
Vinnie's improvisational playing is best described as what Frank Zappa
termed as "having high statistical density" - not always simple to
digest, but full of interesting ideas.
On the other hand, he's great on albums like Joni Mitchell's "Dog Eat
Dog" where there's almost no improvisation. Just lots of good
complement and texture (I'm not sure how much Mac Hine). I need to
hear more of Sting's latest stuff with him.
- Mike