Was: Re: Vocal mic positioning for singing drummers
DJ Bjorklund
>Most of the famous singing drummers use the boom mic setup
>(Levon Helm, Don Henley, Peter Rivera, etc...)
Every time I watch my "The Last Waltz" DVD I get a stiff neck watching
Levon do that hard right 90 degree neck twist to sing into his mic.
Man, I can't see how he did that. Just got used to it I suppose.
I sing lead on about 60% of our list, and agree with the boom with
goose-neck crowd. Mainly because a headset, due to the constant
distance and position of the mic doesn't let you, what I'll term as
"work the mic", backing off on a particularly forceful part of a
musically mellow tune, backing off to sing a backup harmony, or
getting closer for a vocal effect that needs it, etc. I can't imagine
not being able to do that. Now of course the Garth Brooks, and Janet
Jacksons of the world more than likely have a staff of sound techs who
concentrate specifically on vocals during live performance who can
effectively address what I have to do on my own with my SM58. I of
course don't.
One question for manufacturers. Why don't they develop a vocal mic
for use by singing drummers that, along with the mic cord connector
isn't so Goddamn LONG?! A mounted vocal version of Shure's "Green
Bullet" comes to mind. I have read that Little Feat's Richie Hayward
actually uses an SM52 (or whatever their popular kick mic's mod.
number is) for just that reason. It's "L" shaped overall geometry
would give back critical inches to one's stick motions.
matt morin
"DJ Bjorklund" sbjork5...@hickorytech.net> wrote in message
news:27svjvou7tmtbrc7s...@4ax.com...
jdcfan
> >Most of the famous singing drummers use the boom mic setup
> >(Levon Helm, Don Henley, Peter Rivera, etc...)
>
> Every time I watch my "The Last Waltz" DVD I get a stiff neck watching
> Levon do that hard right 90 degree neck twist to sing into his mic.
> Man, I can't see how he did that. Just got used to it I suppose.
Good point. Levon seems to be one of the few who positions the mic on the
right side rather than the left. Keeping my head straight or just
SLIGHTLY to the left seems to work best for me.
> One question for manufacturers. Why don't they develop a vocal mic
> for use by singing drummers that, along with the mic cord connector
> isn't so Goddamn LONG?! A mounted vocal version of Shure's "Green
> Bullet" comes to mind. I have read that Little Feat's Richie Hayward
> actually uses an SM52 (or whatever their popular kick mic's mod.
> number is) for just that reason.
Another great point... I've been thinking the same thing. I would love
to see a smaller VOCAL mic. I don't know much about microphone design,
but why does it have to be so long? Probably so it can be handheld more
easily I would guess... Would it significantly change the sound to make
it smaller?
> It's "L" shaped overall geometry
> would give back critical inches to one's stick motions.
Yes, that really would be helpful. Anything that you can do to minimize
the chance of hitting something is great... Unfortunately, there is
probably not enough demand to make a "L shaped" mic designed for VOCALS.
I would buy one and I'm sure a lot of other singing drummers would buy one
if it was available. There are plenty of instrument mics out there like
that though. May be worth trying the Beta 56 as mentioned by Matt...
Dan L.
DJ Bjorklund
>Beta 56??
No, Beta 52, the kick mic. At most, about a 3rd of the total length
of say, an SM58, connector, and cord loop.
Martin Frye
mic cut out about 80% or more of my "mic hits", so a smaller vocal mic would
almost eliminate them altogether. Sign me up for one.
Marty
"DJ Bjorklund" <bjork5...@hickorytech.net> wrote in message
news:27svjvou7tmtbrc7s...@4ax.com...
>
Anne Bennett
> One question for manufacturers. Why don't they develop a vocal mic
> for use by singing drummers that, along with the mic cord connector
> isn't so Goddamn LONG?! A mounted vocal version of Shure's "Green
> Bullet" comes to mind. I have read that Little Feat's Richie Hayward
> actually uses an SM52 (or whatever their popular kick mic's mod.
> number is) for just that reason.
When I was shopping for a vocal mic (for "regular" singing use, before
I started playing drums), my boyfriend (a former sound man) badly wanted
me to try some ElectroVoice mics, which he greatly prefers to the Shure
vocal mics which the music store was suggesting. Unfortunately, the
music store's only EV mic was a drum mic: small, and mounted completely
differently. Since apparently the main difference between that one
and the vocal mic of interest is the mounting, I tested out the drum
mic as a vocal mic right then and there, and it sounded great! Based
on that, we ordered the corresponding vocal mic, and I'm happy with it.
Therefore, you could possibly get away with using a drum mic as a
vocal mic.
I'm not at home so I can't check model numbers right now, but I
believe my vocal mic is the ElectroVoice ND767A NDYM Super Cardioid
Lead Vocal Microphone. I'll see if I can get the model number of that
instrument mic.
Anne.
--
Ms. Anne Bennett, Senior Sysadmin, ENCS, Concordia University, Montreal H3G 1M8
an...@encs.concordia.ca +1 514 848-2424 x2285
jdcfan
> I have found that even just using a right angle XLR connector on my
> vocal mic cut out about 80% or more of my "mic hits", so a smaller vocal
> mic would almost eliminate them altogether. Sign me up for one.
I dug out my old Radio Shack Instrument Mic (it's "L shaped") and it is
really much more comfortable. It doesn't sound amazing, but it is much
more comfortable to sing and drum with. I put a windscreen over it and it
sounds ok. Now I need to find a good instrument mic for vocals that is
relatively cheap. This really seems like the way to go. It's not nearly
as distracting since it is smaller and can be positioned at an optimum
angle to keep the boom or gooseneck out of the way of sticks.
Now if I get one of those right angle XLR cables that you speak of, I'll
be set. That would probably eliminate another inch or two I would guess.
Thanks to everyone who has responded to this thread. The discussion has
been good and very helpful.
Dan L.
DJ Bjorklund
>Beta 56??
Matt, you were correct, the Beta 56A is the one (but you knew that!)
I was not aware of that model. An applications engineer from Shure
said give one a try because its got the same cartridge as the Beta 58
vocal mike.
Anyway, I snagged one last night on ebay for $109 air shipped (a steal
IMHO) I'll let you know.
jdcfan
>
> >Beta 56??
>
> Matt, you were correct, the Beta 56A is the one (but you knew that!)
> I was not aware of that model. An applications engineer from Shure
> said give one a try because its got the same cartridge as the Beta 58
> vocal mike.
That's interesting. I may have to pick up a Beta 56A now...
> Anyway, I snagged one last night on ebay for $109 air shipped (a steal
> IMHO) I'll let you know.
That does sound like a good price... I'm interested to hear about it.
Dan L.
DJ Bjorklund
>That's interesting. I may have to pick up a Beta 56A now...
Have at it son. $150 everywhere else I've seen
http://tinyurl.com/kfc8
Sylvain Robitaille
> When I was shopping for a vocal mic (for "regular" singing use, before
> I started playing drums), my boyfriend (a former sound man) badly wanted
> me to try some ElectroVoice mics, which he greatly prefers to the Shure
> vocal mics which the music store was suggesting.
That's right. Specifically, the ElectroVoice N/Dym series of
microphones. They have a much warmer sound than the Shure SM5x
microphones, or the Shure Betas. I'm fairly certain that they're also
less sensitive at a distance than the Shures (and a numboer of other
mics I've used), and that results in two things that are beneficial in a
live sound situation:
1. less leakage of "unwanted" sounds. It won't be possible to
completely eliminate the snare sound coming through a drum vocal
mic, unfortunately, but the less of it there is, the less it will
interfere with the sound from the snare's own mic.
2. more gain before feedback. I don't know how drummers manage to
hear themselves singing. The more of their vocal mic that can be
put into their monitor, without risking feedback, the better.
These microphones tend to sound very full and rich without needing to
mess with lots of eq on the channel, which makes the soundman's job much
easier to begin with.
> Unfortunately, the music store's only EV mic was a drum mic: small,
> and mounted completely differently.
It was an N/D468, I believe. The head is the same as the 767, but it's
on a swivel mount. The microphone itself is not much larger than the
head.
> Therefore, you could possibly get away with using a drum mic as a
> vocal mic.
Right. It can easily double as an extra tom mic when you're not singing!
:-)
Seriously, there isn't really any such thing as a "drum mic" or a "vocal
mic". There are only mics that are good at handling high sound-pressure
levels (and perhaps forgiving at having their capsules smacked by errant
drumsticks) and mics that were made to be held in the hand. Other than
that, the characteristics that determine which mic to use for which
application have a lot more to do with what's surrounding the microphone
"target" than whether the microphone was created with that particular
target in mind.
For a vocal microphone for a drummer, one of the main deciding factors
should be that the microphone has better than average off-axis rejection.
The EV N/Dyms generally have, and I suspect most folks will find that the
ND468s or ND767s have excellent off-axis rejection. The 468s have as
an advantage (for a singing drummer), that they're particularly small.
Many drummers like to have their vocal mics on a gooseneck, though,
(if your soundman *likes* the gooseneck, you might want to try a new
soundman!), and I doubt the ND468s would be very useful on one of those.
The 767 probably would be fine in that case, and it has the advantage of
being designed for hand-held applications, which means it has very
minimal handling noise, so you probably won't hear the gooseneck
creaking every time you move the microphone towards (or away from) your
mouth.
> I'll see if I can get the model number of that instrument mic.
It's an ND468 (might be ND468A; I'm not entirely up-to-date on their
current models, I'm afraid ...). My former soundman self highly
recommends that microphone, particularly for toms, electric guitars,
(some) horns, and vocals (in a case that an ND767 is unavailable or
otherwise unsuitable).
That said, I strongly recommend that all singers in an ensemble should
use the same type of vocal microphone (in the case of the EV N/Dym mics,
I would count a 468 as "the same" as a 767). If the lead singer is using
a Beta58, things are going to sound much more coherent if all the singers
use Beta58s. If the soundman has worked extensively with Beyer M88s as
vocal mics, and prefers them to others, take the soundman's preference.
Perhaps periodically "lobby" the soundman to consider trying different
vocal mics, but the more familiar your soundman is with the mics, the
better (s)he'll be able to do the job ... If the singers are providing
their own mics, they should agree on what type of microphones they'll use,
and the EV N/Dyms are very hard to beat on a live stage.
--
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Sylvain Robitaille s...@alcor.concordia.ca
Systems analyst Concordia University
Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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