Ray, the properties of gum wood
drumguru
this is from another newsgroup's thread.
--
George Lawrence
Drumset artist, teacher, author
Nashville TN
http://www.drumguru.com
_________________________________________________
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"If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of
his children a drum." Chinese proverb
_________________________________________________
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Ray Ayotte
The stuff Jasper uses is the white sapwood. The heartwood is dark brown.
It weighs around 35 lbs per cubic foot. Rock maple (sugar maple) comes
in at approx 45 lbs per cu. ft. That is almost almost 1/3 heavier. A
substantial difference.
Jasper gets it's gum rotary cut into veneers.
Gum looks a lot like maple. Jasper likes to use gum because it glues
very easily. Maple veneers are difficult to glue cross-grain, especially
in a cylinder.
The effect on sound? Softer wood. Lower resonant frequency. Warmer.
I am not sure how porosity of wood applies here. I do believe gum is
more porous than rock maple.
I believe Jasper blends maple and gum to make their shells in order to
avoid gluing maple to maple, crossgrain.
I would like to think that a well-made all-gum shell would sound very
nice indeed. I would prefer to apply lacquer to maple any day. Much
better finishing substrate than gum wood. And, maple is brighter and has
more punch. Maple machines better and will hold an edge better. Maple is
also stronger: you can make thinner shells out of maple.
Enough ramble there for you George?
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
drumguru
We should just park you on top of a mountain and charge 20 dollars a
question!
I have always felt that it is the gumwood with the maple that gives
Gretsch it's characteristic sound. When I hold up a raw jasper shell I
can hear the tonal difference. when I play a Jasper shell drum I hear a
very rich and pleasing mid range splash that I don't hear in any other
drum shell. I also don't hear this tone in any of the older Gretsch
three ply drums. They weren't made by jasper were they? I don't
contribute the sound to the Gretsch die cast rim. Other maple shell/die
cast rim combinations don't have this punch and explosive shimmer. They
react differently. A Gretsch shell responds and hits its' tonal peak
quicker.
Also is the rotary or whatever type of cut responsible for the clear
rich grain in the maple finish ply? Gretsches grains are always so
pretty.
> > лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
> > ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
> > "If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of
> > his children a drum." Chinese proverb
> > _________________________________________________
> > лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
> > ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
> > Remove SPAMBLOCK from my email address to reply
--
George Lawrence
Drumset artist, teacher, author
Nashville TN
http://www.drumguru.com
_________________________________________________
лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
"If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of
his children a drum." Chinese proverb
_________________________________________________
лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
Anthony Giampa
just throw it out. =)
- - -
Anthony Giampa (Impe...@aol.com)
Rookie Drummer, Addicted Drum Tinkerer
http://www.geocities.com/area51/dunes/6895/index.html
Robert Schuh
> Ray,
>
> We should just park you on top of a mountain and charge 20 dollars a
> question!
>
> I have always felt that it is the gumwood with the maple that gives
> Gretsch it's characteristic sound. When I hold up a raw jasper shell I
> can hear the tonal difference. when I play a Jasper shell drum I hear a
> very rich and pleasing mid range splash that I don't hear in any other
> drum shell. I also don't hear this tone in any of the older Gretsch
> three ply drums. They weren't made by jasper were they? I don't
> contribute the sound to the Gretsch die cast rim. Other maple shell/die
> cast rim combinations don't have this punch and explosive shimmer. They
> react differently. A Gretsch shell responds and hits its' tonal peak
> quicker.
>
> Also is the rotary or whatever type of cut responsible for the clear
> rich grain in the maple finish ply? Gretsches grains are always so
> pretty.
>
George,
You and I will always disagree on this one, but I still contend that 90% of the
"Great Gretsch Sound" comes from the die cast hoops. I swear that when I took my
Spaun, 12x8.5 and 14x14 floor tom, tuned them up with coated Ambassadors to the
Pitches of Tony Williams' Gretsch kit on his "Spring" album, there was almost
ZERO sound difference. Hopefully I'll get it on tape soon. You and I are
probably working in different tuning ranges, but I spent some time with a Tama
Star CLassic Birch kit and had is sound VERY Gretschy too because of the die
cast hoops.
--
Robert Schuh
"The Most Trolled Man On The Internet!"
Stevie, Trane, Jaco, Jimi and Bird are GODS!
Donate your organs. Save a life.
Proud Endorser of Spaun Drums
-MIKE-
> rich grain in the maple finish ply? Gretsches grains are always so
> pretty.
Ray, this rotary cut is the old "Ho-ho" cut, right? Like when you
unroll a Hostess Ho-ho. A section of log is spun into a blade that
cuts the veneers out of the log, decreasing the logs diameter as it
cuts round and round.
The sap wood would be the first veneers and then the heart wood in
the center of the log.
Is this correct?
-MIKE-
--
RMMP Charity Snare Drum Raffle Site:
http://mikedrums.com/raffle.html
SW Hood
reading in MD a few years ago, that they had some financial problems and used
whatever wood was the cheapest at the time in the middle plies instead of Gum...and
this is when Keller began their rise....
BTW, I don't think that you answered George's question or I missed it...Is Gum a
more porous wood than maple? And that is why it makes for a good combination for
shells. They get a lot more closer in the plies and you don't have the seperation
tendencies of a pure maple, birch, etc. shell. We had a brief discussion in the
other group about it....Your answers would be greatly appreciated, o'wise one....
Stacey Hood
Robert Schuh wrote:
> drumguru wrote:
>
> > Ray,
> >
> > We should just park you on top of a mountain and charge 20 dollars a
> > question!
> >
> > I have always felt that it is the gumwood with the maple that gives
> > Gretsch it's characteristic sound. When I hold up a raw jasper shell I
> > can hear the tonal difference. when I play a Jasper shell drum I hear a
> > very rich and pleasing mid range splash that I don't hear in any other
> > drum shell. I also don't hear this tone in any of the older Gretsch
> > three ply drums. They weren't made by jasper were they? I don't
> > contribute the sound to the Gretsch die cast rim. Other maple shell/die
> > cast rim combinations don't have this punch and explosive shimmer. They
> > react differently. A Gretsch shell responds and hits its' tonal peak
> > quicker.
> >
> > Also is the rotary or whatever type of cut responsible for the clear
> > rich grain in the maple finish ply? Gretsches grains are always so
> > pretty.
> >
>
Nys49487yh
did jasper ever use poplar in their shells? I think I have an old gretsch that
has poplar in the middle..............what are the pros and cons on using
poplar in drum shells?
Warren
drumguru
shop I owned and the shops I've worked at. the Jasper shells have the
same tonal qualities whether they have die cast or regular hoops. Yes, I
disagree.
--
George Lawrence
Drumset artist, teacher, author
Nashville TN
http://www.drumguru.com
_________________________________________________
«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
"If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of
his children a drum." Chinese proverb
_________________________________________________
«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
drumguru
--
rus
seven years!
rus
_gotta_ get a signature
spammers, use your...@mybutt.com
humans, use something else.
.
Anthony Giampa <impe...@aol.comSPAMSUX> wrote in message
news:20000616030034...@ng-cg1.aol.com...
Ray Ayotte
I thought we all parked you at the top of that proverbial mountain, but
at $20 a pop, I'd be willing to trade with you for awhile...
drumguru wrote:
>
> Ray,
>
> We should just park you on top of a mountain and charge 20 dollars a
> question!
>
> I have always felt that it is the gumwood with the maple that gives
> Gretsch it's characteristic sound. When I hold up a raw jasper shell I
> can hear the tonal difference. when I play a Jasper shell drum I hear a
> very rich and pleasing mid range splash that I don't hear in any other
> drum shell. I also don't hear this tone in any of the older Gretsch
> three ply drums. They weren't made by jasper were they?
The older Gretsch 3ply shell was revolutionized drum shell making. It
was sometime in the 20s that Gretsch moved from bending solid single
planks of wood into a cylinder and reinforcing with rings, sometimes
adding a ring in the middle. Gretsch, I am told, was the first to
laminate veneers to make a shell. They started with a piece of maple
veneer for the outer ply and placed that inside a mould, then a poplar
centre and an internal ply of maple, all with scarf joints. Sometime in
the 40s or early 50s they developed the butt joined 3ply shell and did
away with the internal rings.
Sometime in the early 50s (I am not sure when... I am not a historian)
Gretsch worked with Jasper to develop a 6 ply shell. Thin veneers of
maple and thick veneers of Gum wood.
I don't
> contribute the sound to the Gretsch die cast rim. Other maple shell/die
> cast rim combinations don't have this punch and explosive shimmer. They
> react differently. A Gretsch shell responds and hits its' tonal peak
> quicker.
I agree with you. All things being equal (i.e.: use a Gretsch shell 12x8
with and without die cast hoops and compare to other 12x8 shells, with
and without die-cast hoops) the Gretsch shell has a distinctively warmer
sound.
I would attribute that to the lower density gum wood which glued to the
maple lowers the relative density of the shell, if compared to an
all-maple shell of the same thickness (6ply Gretsch compared to 8ply
Keller?)
>
> Also is the rotary or whatever type of cut responsible for the clear
> rich grain in the maple finish ply? Gretsches grains are always so
> pretty.
>
The "face" veneer on a Gretsch shell is rotary cut maple. I don't think
that I have seen gum used as a "face" veneer.
Rotary cut is also called "peeling" veneers. It is like unrolling a
paper towel roll. Veneers are made 2 ways: slicing, like slicing cheese
or rotary cutting: spinning a log against a knife and peeling away a
continuous ribbon of wood.
I don't see a difference between Gretsch's face maple veneers and
others. However, maple can be selected for grain patterns that are more
or less "figured". Some maple shows almost no grain when stained, others
lots of grain.
As I recall, Gretsch was the first to use guitar finishing techniques
for drum shells. Applying stain directly into wood grain is very
difficult to do in a production process because no two shells are alike.
Staining guitars is easy. They don't have to match.
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
> > > --
> > > George Lawrence
> > > Drumset artist, teacher, author
> > > Nashville TN
> > >
> > > http://www.drumguru.com
> > > _________________________________________________
> > > лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
> > > ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
> > > "If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of
> > > his children a drum." Chinese proverb
> > > _________________________________________________
> > > лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
> > > ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
> > > Remove SPAMBLOCK from my email address to reply
>
> --
> George Lawrence
> Drumset artist, teacher, author
> Nashville TN
>
> http://www.drumguru.com
> _________________________________________________
> лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
> ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
> "If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of
> his children a drum." Chinese proverb
> _________________________________________________
> лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
> ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
Ray Ayotte
Ray Ayotte
hickory. But Gum is not as smooth as maple.
Size of pores would be more of a concern for surface finishing rather
than sound.
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.co
drumguru wrote:
>
> in Jasper shells? sound characteristics? more or less porous than maple?
> this is from another newsgroup's thread.
> --
> George Lawrence
> Drumset artist, teacher, author
> Nashville TN
>
> http://www.drumguru.com
> _________________________________________________
> «¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> "If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of
> his children a drum." Chinese proverb
> _________________________________________________
> «¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Ray Ayotte
You'll have to "A" + "B" a Gretsch drum with and without die cast hoops
and, say, compare a Spaun drum with and without diecast hoops. Also,
you'll want to make sure that the dimensions are the same, same heads,
same shell thickness (maybe Keller 8ply) and same tension system.
I think you will find the Gretsch shell to be warmer than the 8ply
Keller shell.
That drier characteristic that is produced by diecast hoops will be
prominent no matter what shell you use. Maybe we are talking about a
sound that is "die-cast-hoop-like" instead of "Gretsch-like"?
Die-cast hoops dramatically affect the sound of a drum. (I suppose if
you are used to die-cast hoops, then it would hold that triple flange
hoops dramatically affect the sound of a drum.... and think back to some
of your posts on Yamaha wood hoops - they too dramatically affect the
sound).
So, you are both correct. Die cast hoops sound different. Jasper shells
sound different.
Different heads probably affect the "voice" of a drum more dramatically
than shells or hoops.
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
Robert Schuh wrote:
>
> drumguru wrote:
>
> > Ray,
> >
> > We should just park you on top of a mountain and charge 20 dollars a
> > question!
> >
> > I have always felt that it is the gumwood with the maple that gives
> > Gretsch it's characteristic sound. When I hold up a raw jasper shell I
> > can hear the tonal difference. when I play a Jasper shell drum I hear a
> > very rich and pleasing mid range splash that I don't hear in any other
> > drum shell. I also don't hear this tone in any of the older Gretsch
> > three ply drums. They weren't made by jasper were they? I don't
> > contribute the sound to the Gretsch die cast rim. Other maple shell/die
> > cast rim combinations don't have this punch and explosive shimmer. They
> > react differently. A Gretsch shell responds and hits its' tonal peak
> > quicker.
> >
> > Also is the rotary or whatever type of cut responsible for the clear
> > rich grain in the maple finish ply? Gretsches grains are always so
> > pretty.
> >
>
Ray Ayotte
That should explain how they get such large sheets of wood with no seams
from such relative small trees.
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
-MIKE- wrote:
>
> > Also is the rotary or whatever type of cut responsible for the clear
> > rich grain in the maple finish ply? Gretsches grains are always so
> > pretty.
>
Ray Ayotte
6ply shells. Japser is a furniture maker. They also made Gretsch guitar
parts.
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
drumguru wrote:
>
> The older three ply Gretsch shells weren't made by Jasper, I believe.
>
> Nys49487yh wrote:
> >
> > Another one for Ray,
> >
> > did jasper ever use poplar in their shells? I think I have an old gretsch that
> > has poplar in the middle..............what are the pros and cons on using
> > poplar in drum shells?
> >
> > Warren
>
Ray Ayotte
Rogers and then Camco. I believe they blended maple and birch.
Jasper used maple for face and interior veneers and gum for internal
veneers for 2 reasons: maple to maple gluing in cylinders was beyond the
ability of their wood-based moulds and gum was cheaper.
Gum is more porous than maple. Maple has one of the tightest grains of
all woods, making it ideal for finishing. Maple can be sanded and
stained directly without surface fillers.
Gum is softer and when glued cross-grain to maple "collapses" enough to
effect a good bond. Maple to maple cross-grain gluing requires immense
pressures.
$20 please...
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
SW Hood wrote:
>
> Ray, I asked George in another group about the Jasper company. I seem to remember
> reading in MD a few years ago, that they had some financial problems and used
> whatever wood was the cheapest at the time in the middle plies instead of Gum...and
> this is when Keller began their rise....
> BTW, I don't think that you answered George's question or I missed it...Is Gum a
> more porous wood than maple? And that is why it makes for a good combination for
> shells. They get a lot more closer in the plies and you don't have the seperation
> tendencies of a pure maple, birch, etc. shell. We had a brief discussion in the
> other group about it....Your answers would be greatly appreciated, o'wise one....
> Stacey Hood
>
> Robert Schuh wrote:
>
> > drumguru wrote:
> >
> > > Ray,
> > >
> > > We should just park you on top of a mountain and charge 20 dollars a
> > > question!
> > >
> > > I have always felt that it is the gumwood with the maple that gives
> > > Gretsch it's characteristic sound. When I hold up a raw jasper shell I
> > > can hear the tonal difference. when I play a Jasper shell drum I hear a
> > > very rich and pleasing mid range splash that I don't hear in any other
> > > drum shell. I also don't hear this tone in any of the older Gretsch
> > > three ply drums. They weren't made by jasper were they? I don't
> > > contribute the sound to the Gretsch die cast rim. Other maple shell/die
> > > cast rim combinations don't have this punch and explosive shimmer. They
> > > react differently. A Gretsch shell responds and hits its' tonal peak
> > > quicker.
> > >
> > > Also is the rotary or whatever type of cut responsible for the clear
> > > rich grain in the maple finish ply? Gretsches grains are always so
> > > pretty.
> > >
> >
Ray Ayotte
A Jasper shell with die cast hoops is markedly different sounding to one
with flanged steel hoops.
I agree that the Jasper characteristics will come thru with either hoop,
but they will not sound the same.
The die-cast hoop will produce more Gretsch-like sounds, on almost any
shell.
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
drumguru wrote:
>
> I tune high. I have spent a lot of time with thousands of drums at the
> shop I owned and the shops I've worked at. the Jasper shells have the
> same tonal qualities whether they have die cast or regular hoops. Yes, I
> disagree.
>
Ray Ayotte
RayAyotte
ayo...@home.com
drumguru wrote:
>
> The older three ply Gretsch shells weren't made by Jasper, I believe.
>
> Nys49487yh wrote:
> >
> > Another one for Ray,
> >
> > did jasper ever use poplar in their shells? I think I have an old gretsch that
> > has poplar in the middle..............what are the pros and cons on using
> > poplar in drum shells?
> >
> > Warren
>
Ray Ayotte
yup... the 3ply Gretsch shells were maple+poplar+maple.
pros and cons on using poplar?
pro = cheaper
pro = warmer
con = less punch
con = mixed wood species
Some of those old 3ply shells didn't hold together very well.
Delamination was a big problem. And, the snare drums sound terrible.
You could never really get the tension up on them without killing the
shell resonance, and even actually physically collapsing the shell.
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
DANDRUMZ
I'd just like to point ouot that there are a few Gretsch shells floating around
that have a considerable amount of mahogany in them...I think these were
manufaxtured during wartime periods..I visited the Jasper plant in Jasper,
Indiana a very long time ago when I worked at Fibes...It was an amazing
place...
Tom Meyers
Ray Ayotte
I've been to the Jasper plant a couple of times too. I was amazed at the
size of it, but a little saddened by the "has been" look and feel of the
place and the neighbourhood - the area used to be a vital furniture
manufacturing centre. It is now a shadow of its former self. Most of
their machinery and equipment looked old and wearing out. They make
primarily furniture parts - laminated table frames, laminated
chaiselongue frames, etc...
Mahogany was used extensively by all the USA drum makers, particularly
for their marching drums because of lower cost and lightness - and for
student drums. The mahogany they used then is no longer available at low
prices. It is now an expensive wood. Mahogany is very light and very
strong. However it does not machine very well - cross-grain cutting
tends to rip and shred. And, since mahogany has such an open, porous
grain, it is difficult to do a smooth lacquer finish.
There is not a lot of mystery to making a good shell. Probably more
"myth-tery". Good wood, craftsmanship, machinery, process, design = good
shell.
Last month I was in England and visited the Premier factory - got to see
some serious shellmaking there.
Premier's shellmaking facility and process are second to none.
The airbag system for applying even pressure gluing the veneers is as
good as it gets.
And, the microwave curing of the adhesives is equally impressive.
Jasper, in comparison, looks like an antique shop. But, it was
interesting at Jasper to see all the old moulds, particularly some of
the guitar parts. They moulded tops for archtop guitars - even saw a top
for an acoustic bass - all stored in the dusty rafters.
I would go again to the Jasper plant just for fun, but there is little
to learn there.
It is always exhilarating for me when I get to "scratch 'n sniff" at
drum history.
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
Mark Karjaluoto
news:394AF2A8...@home.com...
> $20 please...
Can we put payment for tips on our "Ray Ayotte Mastercards?"
drumguru
--
drumguru
I agree about the die cast hoop being an integral part of the typical
Gretsch sound and I understand that putting a die cast rim on any other
quality shell will give it that "die cast" sound. What I'm pointing out
is that there is a mid range tonal quality, a "splash", if you will, in
the Jasper shell that I found prominent in the Darwins I owned and all
of the Gretsches that I've ever owned, regardless of tuning, heads, die
cast rims, cold rolled rims, etc. I've never heard it in a Keller or any
other shell with the same regardless of heads, tuning, rims, etc. It was
characterized as a splash by Doug Hunter, a greaat soundman and musician
I worked with for three years on the road (he got THE best drum sound).
I was using my Darwins with smooth white emperors on the toms, low
tunings and standard triple flange rims. He noticed that whether it was
me or another drummer playing that the richness of the drums' sound had
something to do with the midrange frequencies of the drum speaking very
quickly at all volumes and that other drums tended to be mostly lows and
highs with a big dip in the midrange response (typical of keller shells
to my ears). Does no one else hear this?
Ray Ayotte wrote:
>
> C'mon George :) I think you will agree:
> A Jasper shell with die cast hoops is markedly different sounding to one
> with flanged steel hoops.
> I agree that the Jasper characteristics will come thru with either hoop,
> but they will not sound the same.
> The die-cast hoop will produce more Gretsch-like sounds, on almost any
> shell.
> Ray Ayotte
> ayo...@home.com
>
> drumguru wrote:
> >
> > I tune high. I have spent a lot of time with thousands of drums at the
> > shop I owned and the shops I've worked at. the Jasper shells have the
> > same tonal qualities whether they have die cast or regular hoops. Yes, I
> > disagree.
> >
> > лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
> > ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
> > "If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of
> > his children a drum." Chinese proverb
> > _________________________________________________
> > лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
> > ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
> > Remove SPAMBLOCK from my email address to reply
--
George Lawrence
Drumset artist, teacher, author
Nashville TN
http://www.drumguru.com
_________________________________________________
лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
"If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of
his children a drum." Chinese proverb
_________________________________________________
лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
-MIKE-
<was that out loud?>
(:cD
-MIKE-
Jim Dwyer
"drumguru" <drumguru...@home.com> wrote in message
news:394BBAD7...@home.com...
> Yes,
>
> I agree about the die cast hoop being an integral part of the typical
> Gretsch sound and I understand that putting a die cast rim on any other
> quality shell will give it that "die cast" sound. What I'm pointing out
> is that there is a mid range tonal quality, a "splash", if you will, in
> the Jasper shell that I found prominent in the Darwins I owned and all
> of the Gretsches that I've ever owned, regardless of tuning, heads, die
> cast rims, cold rolled rims, etc. I've never heard it in a Keller or any
> other shell with the same regardless of heads, tuning, rims, etc. It was
> characterized as a splash by Doug Hunter, a greaat soundman and musician
> I worked with for three years on the road (he got THE best drum sound).
> I was using my Darwins with smooth white emperors on the toms, low
> tunings and standard triple flange rims. He noticed that whether it was
> me or another drummer playing that the richness of the drums' sound had
> something to do with the midrange frequencies of the drum speaking very
> quickly at all volumes and that other drums tended to be mostly lows and
> highs with a big dip in the midrange response (typical of keller shells
> to my ears). Does no one else hear this?
Yea! I can hear that as well in any of my Gretsch toms and bass drums. It
almost sounds to me that the fundamental is much louder that the harmonics
(lows and highs). It's "that great Gretsch sound" and I love it!
Jim
http://members.home.net/jmdwyer
Rev. Poindexter
<radc...@ohio.edu> wrote:
> > Also is the rotary or whatever type of cut responsible for the clear
> > rich grain in the maple finish ply? Gretsches grains are always so
> > pretty.
>
> Ray, this rotary cut is the old "Ho-ho" cut, right? Like when you
> unroll a Hostess Ho-ho. A section of log is spun into a blade that
> cuts the veneers out of the log, decreasing the logs diameter as it
> cuts round and round.
> The sap wood would be the first veneers and then the heart wood in
> the center of the log.
> Is this correct?
>
This reminds me - when I first moved to WV, we lived right across the
river from Ohio. I went to Belpre and hit a Hostess thrift store (day
old bread, and scads of Twinkies, Ho-Ho's and the like). I bought some
Ding Dongs - I always like'd 'em when I was a kid, but noticed they had
changed the name to "King Dons".
I guess they didn't want any X-rated snack foods?
Rev. Poindexter
<dand...@aol.com> wrote:
> Hi Ray,
> I'd just like to point ouot that there are a few Gretsch shells floating
> around
> that have a considerable amount of mahogany in them...I think these were
> manufaxtured during wartime periods..I visited the Jasper plant in Jasper,
> Indiana a very long time ago when I worked at Fibes...It was an amazing
> place...
>
> Tom Meyers
Mahogany was VERY prevalent during the war. I saw/read somewhere that
Andrew Higgins who made Higgins Boats (the landing craft for D-Day) and
PT Boats bought the ENTIRE harvest of mahogany in some of those years.
Jasper was probably doing work as a subcontractor. Those boats were
made entirely from mahogany plywood.
RP
Ray Ayotte
I want half. :)
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
> > > Robert Schuh wrote:
> > >
> > > > drumguru wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Ray,
> > > > >
> > > > > We should just park you on top of a mountain and charge 20 dollars a
> > > > > question!
> > > > >
> > > > > I have always felt that it is the gumwood with the maple that gives
> > > > > Gretsch it's characteristic sound. When I hold up a raw jasper shell I
> > > > > can hear the tonal difference. when I play a Jasper shell drum I hear a
> > > > > very rich and pleasing mid range splash that I don't hear in any other
> > > > > drum shell. I also don't hear this tone in any of the older Gretsch
> > > > > three ply drums. They weren't made by jasper were they? I don't
> > > > > contribute the sound to the Gretsch die cast rim. Other maple shell/die
> > > > > cast rim combinations don't have this punch and explosive shimmer. They
> > > > > react differently. A Gretsch shell responds and hits its' tonal peak
> > > > > quicker.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also is the rotary or whatever type of cut responsible for the clear
> > > > > rich grain in the maple finish ply? Gretsches grains are always so
> > > > > pretty.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > George,
> > > > You and I will always disagree on this one, but I still contend that 90% of the
> > > > "Great Gretsch Sound" comes from the die cast hoops. I swear that when I took my
> > > > Spaun, 12x8.5 and 14x14 floor tom, tuned them up with coated Ambassadors to the
> > > > Pitches of Tony Williams' Gretsch kit on his "Spring" album, there was almost
> > > > ZERO sound difference. Hopefully I'll get it on tape soon. You and I are
> > > > probably working in different tuning ranges, but I spent some time with a Tama
> > > > Star CLassic Birch kit and had is sound VERY Gretschy too because of the die
> > > > cast hoops.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Robert Schuh
> > > > "The Most Trolled Man On The Internet!"
> > > > Stevie, Trane, Jaco, Jimi and Bird are GODS!
> > > > Donate your organs. Save a life.
> > > > Proud Endorser of Spaun Drums
>
> --
> George Lawrence
> Drumset artist, teacher, author
> Nashville TN
>
> http://www.drumguru.com
> _________________________________________________
> «¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
> "If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of
> his children a drum." Chinese proverb
> _________________________________________________
> «¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤+¥«¤+§«¤
> ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
drumguru
from maple/gum shells with a lower price tag then Gretsch or fibes.
(hint hint)
Ray Ayotte wrote:
>
> I said "..I agree that the Jasper characteristics will come thru with
> either hoop..."
> You are absolutely correct. The Jasper shells have their own unique
> "voice", but, relatively, so do all other shells. I don't believe any
> other drum maker makes the same shell as Jasper, therefore, no other
> drum will sound the same.
> I wish the Jasper shell was more the result of "design" but that is not
> so. Jasper makes maple/gum shells partly because they are incapable of
> making all maple (this they freely admit). Jasper could make all-gum but
> they would be more difficult to finish.
> Now that DW are making their own shells it should be interesting to see
> what they come up with.
> And, I wonder what will come of Premier's experiments with "blending"
> wood species.
> Ray Ayotte
> ayo...@home.com
>
> drumguru wrote:
> >
> > Yes,
> >
> > I agree about the die cast hoop being an integral part of the typical
> > Gretsch sound and I understand that putting a die cast rim on any other
> > quality shell will give it that "die cast" sound. What I'm pointing out
> > is that there is a mid range tonal quality, a "splash", if you will, in
> > the Jasper shell that I found prominent in the Darwins I owned and all
> > of the Gretsches that I've ever owned, regardless of tuning, heads, die
> > cast rims, cold rolled rims, etc. I've never heard it in a Keller or any
> > other shell with the same regardless of heads, tuning, rims, etc. It was
> > characterized as a splash by Doug Hunter, a greaat soundman and musician
> > I worked with for three years on the road (he got THE best drum sound).
> > I was using my Darwins with smooth white emperors on the toms, low
> > tunings and standard triple flange rims. He noticed that whether it was
> > me or another drummer playing that the richness of the drums' sound had
> > something to do with the midrange frequencies of the drum speaking very
> > quickly at all volumes and that other drums tended to be mostly lows and
> > highs with a big dip in the midrange response (typical of keller shells
> > to my ears). Does no one else hear this?
> >
> > Ray Ayotte wrote:
> > >
> > > C'mon George :) I think you will agree:
> > > A Jasper shell with die cast hoops is markedly different sounding to one
> > > with flanged steel hoops.
> > > I agree that the Jasper characteristics will come thru with either hoop,
> > > but they will not sound the same.
> > > The die-cast hoop will produce more Gretsch-like sounds, on almost any
> > > shell.
> > > Ray Ayotte
> > > ayo...@home.com
> > >
> > > drumguru wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I tune high. I have spent a lot of time with thousands of drums at the
> > > > shop I owned and the shops I've worked at. the Jasper shells have the
> > > > same tonal qualities whether they have die cast or regular hoops. Yes, I
> > > > disagree.
> > > >
> > > > лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
> > > > ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
> > > > "If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of
> > > > his children a drum." Chinese proverb
> > > > _________________________________________________
> > > > лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
> > > > ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
> > > > Remove SPAMBLOCK from my email address to reply
> >
> > --
> > George Lawrence
> > Drumset artist, teacher, author
> > Nashville TN
> >
> > http://www.drumguru.com
> > _________________________________________________
> > лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
> > ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
> > "If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of
> > his children a drum." Chinese proverb
> > _________________________________________________
> > лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
> > ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
> > Remove SPAMBLOCK from my email address to reply
--
George Lawrence
Drumset artist, teacher, author
Nashville TN
http://www.drumguru.com
_________________________________________________
лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
"If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of
his children a drum." Chinese proverb
_________________________________________________
лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+лд+елд+злд+елд+злд+елд+злд
ппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппппп
Ray Ayotte
Ray Ayotte
designing and building planes and boat out of plywood.
Wood was abundant and cheap and lightweight. Metals were scarce and
heavy.
Mahogany is very light and very stiff. It is amazingly strong when cross
laminated and adds tremendous strength as a "cross-banding" when used
with heavier woods, helping keep the overall weight down.
Also, because mahogany is very stiff it lends itself to being bent "with
the grain" and not "against the grain".
... andonandonandon...
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
Rev. Poindexter
wrote:
yup... the 3ply Gretsch shells were maple+poplar+maple.
> pros and cons on using poplar?
> pro = cheaper
> pro = warmer
> con = less punch
> con = mixed wood species
>
> Some of those old 3ply shells didn't hold together very well.
> Delamination was a big problem. And, the snare drums sound terrible.
> You could never really get the tension up on them without killing the
> shell resonance, and even actually physically collapsing the shell.
>
> Ray Ayotte
> ayo...@home.com
But Ray,
The Ludwigs, WFLs, Leedys and Slingerlands from the mid-late 30's to
the late 60's used a 3-ply mahogany-poplar-mahogany sandwich quite
successfully.
How did all THOSE drums keep from disintegrating? Mine included...
RP
Ray Ayotte
The difference in the cost of the raw material relative to the completed
raw shell is minimal.
It would not likely be worth the effort.
Let's examine the cost of the raw material veneer that would go into,
say, a 12"x8" tom (8x12 to you trad die-hards) :).
Each of the 6 veneers is approximately 2 square feet (convenient
dimension no?).
Say you make the shell out of top grade rock maple and what you use up
works out to roughly $0.70 per square foot. Your total raw material cost
would be approximately 12 square feet x $0.70 per sq.ft. = $8.40. (The
"what you use" takes into account the waste created in making shells
from veneer sheets that are never the correct size. An unbelievable
amount of veneer "falls on the floor".)
The same arithmetic with, say, 2 veneers of maple at $0.70, and to be
really generous, 4 veneers of gum at $0.30 per sq. ft. : 2x 2 sq.ft. x
$0.70 plus 4x 2 sq.ft. x $0.30, add the two products = $2.80 for the
maple and $2.40 for the gum wood = $5.20. (Many maple-gum shells are 3
maple + 3 gum veneers).
So what we have here is $8.40 for all maple and $5.20 for gum wood. (It
is very convenient to note, at this time, that drum covering material
costs almost as much as all the maple that goes into the shell. - Check
out what Precision sell a Marine Pearl piece big enough to cover the
12x8 - and lacquer costs waaayyyyy more!). I love this!
If all else remains equal then all you have at the end of the day is a
difference of $3.20 between an all maple shell and an adulterated maple
shell.
There is a "rule of thumb" on raw materials in manufacturing (this is
very old-school and should not be taken as "bible"). If you take the
cost of raw materials and multiply by 10 then you have close to a
selling price. Accordingly, a raw all maple shell should sell for $84.00
and the adulterated one $52.00.
When you arrive at the ultimate, finished completed drum selling price
you would only be able to charge $32 less for the maple flavoured gum
shell - not enough of a difference to market it as a cheaper
alternative.
You would be forced to market the maple-gum shell entirely on the merits
of its musical sound.
So, the answer is no. I won't be making maple-gum shells in my next
incarnation.
But, if a maple-gum shell proves to be superior to an all-maple shell,
then I'll be doing a re-think.
Ray Ayotte
with thick veneers, 3ply, butt joined, without rings. Most have not
survived. They also used incorrect adhesives - a little moisture -
delamination.
Thinks of the tens of thousands of Gretsch shells that were made. How
many survive today? We only see what we see.
My active drum shop years were 1965 thru 1992. I threw out a lot of old
drum shells.
The scarf joint method used by Ludwig, Slingerland and Leedy was more
reliable and quicker to build. Gretsch eventually learned to use the
correct glues. Then Jasper cam along, I'd say around 1950, and started
supplying Gretsch with 6ply butt-joined shells.
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
-MIKE-
"bent," and "wood." :-)
BTW Ray, did you know I'm setting up a TRUE A/B comparison between Birch and
Maple. I have 2 Sonor kits which are identical in every way, except for the
wood. A Force 3000 in Birch and a Force Maple in, uh... Maple. I have the
same heads for each and a tension meter to get the same tension on the
heads.
I plan on using 10", 12", and 14" toms, and 20" bass drums. I am going to
record everything to DAT and make MP3's to post on the net, so everyone can
hear the results. I may even get spectrum analyses and post them
Any suggestions or requests?
-MIKE-
--
The RMMP Charity Snare Drum Raffle Official Site:
http://mikedrums.com/raffle.html
Ray Ayotte
Are these shells identically made? Number of plys. Thickness.
I am very curious to see what the differences are.
Be sure to move the heads around. Heads vary.
A-B both kits, then trade the heads and A-B again.
Also, try spectrum analysis on just the shells without heads.
Good luck and don't get bent out of shape with the results.
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
-MIKE-
were discussing this and I suggested using the same heads. He offered
concern about a head seating on one drum and being malformed for the other
drum's edge. The edges are nearly identical on both, so I don't know if its
a concern, but it's certainly critic fodder. I like your trade idea.
I'll double check the shells. As far as I know, they are identical.
I won't get bent, I'm completely neutral on the subject.
I bought clear Ambassadors for top and bottom of all the toms. I'm not sure
if I'll use an Evans EQ3/4 or a single un-muffled head for the bass.
How would one get MD interested in this?
-MIKE-
3000's sound like. But, it won't effect my conclusions. That's one of the
reasons I want to post the MP3's. Let everyone be the judge.
Ray Ayotte
head seating
Both drums are made in the same moulds so they are going to be the same
size - which addresses the head seating issue as far as diameter is
concerned. I assume the shape of the bearing edge to be the same. If
not, you are not going to be able to compare the drums.
As to roundness - not many woodshell drums are perfectly round.
I would install the heads the first time, carefully seating them. Be
sure to tune evenly. Tension much higher than the final tuning. Press
down firmly at centre of head with palm(s) - then tune down to pitch you
want.
To be safe, I would switch heads back and forth twice so that each drum
has four tests: A B C and D. This will address any problems with head
stretching and seating - maybe.
MD's interest?
Do the test. Then send a letter to the editor letting them know what you
did. If they are interested they will ask for details.
Take photos as you're doing this.
Have fun.
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
-MIKE- wrote:
>
> Ray, what about head seating? Adam (drum tech from Columbus Perc.) and I
> were discussing this and I suggested using the same heads. He offered
> concern about a head seating on one drum and being malformed for the other
> drum's edge. The edges are nearly identical on both, so I don't know if its
> a concern, but it's certainly critic fodder. I like your trade idea.
>
> I'll double check the shells. As far as I know, they are identical.
>
> I won't get bent, I'm completely neutral on the subject.
>
> I bought clear Ambassadors for top and bottom of all the toms. I'm not sure
> if I'll use an Evans EQ3/4 or a single un-muffled head for the bass.
>
> How would one get MD interested in this?
>
> -MIKE-
>
> --
> The RMMP Charity Snare Drum Raffle Official Site:
> http://mikedrums.com/raffle.html
>
> > Hey Mike,
> > Are these shells identically made? Number of plys. Thickness.
> > I am very curious to see what the differences are.
> > Be sure to move the heads around. Heads vary.
> > A-B both kits, then trade the heads and A-B again.
> > Also, try spectrum analysis on just the shells without heads.
> > Good luck and don't get bent out of shape with the results.
> > Ray Ayotte
> > ayo...@home.com
> >
-MIKE-
always though their shells made tuning effortless, as they pretty much take
the drumhead's pre-formed collar out of the equation.
The edges are the same. If they weren't, I would make them identical. :-)
I plan on marking the heads so they go back on the same. I also plan on
comparing the drums in two tuning ranges. A low, rock/funk range, and a
higher, tonal, jazz range.
I will do the low range first, then tension up to the high range. This will
help take the seating memory out of the equation.
Don't you think?
Ray Ayotte
RayA
Rev. Poindexter
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <skoe6mn...@news.supernews.com>, -MIKE-
<radc...@ohio.edu> wrote:
> I don't know how many more of these posts I can read with all the "stiff,"
> "bent," and "wood." :-)
>
> BTW Ray, did you know I'm setting up a TRUE A/B comparison between Birch and
> Maple. I have 2 Sonor kits which are identical in every way, except for the
> wood. A Force 3000 in Birch and a Force Maple in, uh... Maple. I have the
> same heads for each and a tension meter to get the same tension on the
> heads.
>
> I plan on using 10", 12", and 14" toms, and 20" bass drums. I am going to
> record everything to DAT and make MP3's to post on the net, so everyone can
> hear the results. I may even get spectrum analyses and post them
>
> Any suggestions or requests?
>
> -MIKE-
I'm looking forward to hearing this...
Being one of my kits is the same as yours :)
Too bad Sonor didn't make a beech shelled kit in the same dimensions so
we could 3-way...
RP
Ray Ayotte
An all-beech shell sound amazing. But, it is not as easily finished as
Rock (Sugar) Maple.
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
Edward W Warshauer
on 6/18/00 3:28 PM:
> European Beech is killer wood!
> An all-beech shell sound amazing. But, it is not as easily finished as
> Rock (Sugar) Maple.
> Ray Ayotte
> ayo...@home.com
>
Not a problem...Just cover it with a beautiful rosewood veneer like my
Sonors!!!
ED W
Rev. Poindexter
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
In article <394D23FA...@home.com>, Ray Ayotte <ayo...@home.com>
wrote:
> European Beech is killer wood!
> An all-beech shell sound amazing. But, it is not as easily finished as
> Rock (Sugar) Maple.
> Ray Ayotte
> ayo...@home.com
I know it's a killer wood. Sonor used it exclusively until the
Signature lites and Sonorlites came out in the early 80's. I owned a
set of Phonic Plus that were (are) made of European Beech. Wonderful
wood. Warm, powerful tone.
RP
Ray Ayotte
Laminating Rosewood over the beech changes the sound some.
A 100% Beech, lacquer finish, would sound different.
The Rosewood veneer is beautiful. So is the Bubinga Wood.
I think Sonor were the first to laminate production shells with rare
woods.
But, the lacquer quality on the first Rosewood and Bubinga wood
laminates were very poor. Of course, at the time, no one knew better.
Looked like Danish furniture.
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
Edward W Warshauer wrote:
>
> in article 394D23FA...@home.com, Ray Ayotte at ayo...@home.com wrote
> on 6/18/00 3:28 PM:
>
> > European Beech is killer wood!
> > An all-beech shell sound amazing. But, it is not as easily finished as
> > Rock (Sugar) Maple.
> > Ray Ayotte
> > ayo...@home.com
> >
Robert Schuh
> [[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
> the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]
>
> In article <skoe6mn...@news.supernews.com>, -MIKE-
> <radc...@ohio.edu> wrote:
>
> > I don't know how many more of these posts I can read with all the "stiff,"
> > "bent," and "wood." :-)
> >
> > BTW Ray, did you know I'm setting up a TRUE A/B comparison between Birch and
> > Maple. I have 2 Sonor kits which are identical in every way, except for the
> > wood. A Force 3000 in Birch and a Force Maple in, uh... Maple. I have the
> > same heads for each and a tension meter to get the same tension on the
> > heads.
> >
> > I plan on using 10", 12", and 14" toms, and 20" bass drums. I am going to
> > record everything to DAT and make MP3's to post on the net, so everyone can
> > hear the results. I may even get spectrum analyses and post them
> >
> > Any suggestions or requests?
> >
> > -MIKE-
>
> I'm looking forward to hearing this...
> Being one of my kits is the same as yours :)
>
> Too bad Sonor didn't make a beech shelled kit in the same dimensions so
> we could 3-way...
>
> RP
This has gone too far now! We are talking drums and all Scott can think about is
doing MIKE and Ray in a threesome. You disgust me! :)
DANDRUMZ
Thanks for the kind words on our factory. It's a pretty cool place to visit..If
anyone in the RMMP makes it over to the UK..Email me the dates and I'll try to
set you up with a visit...
Anyway, the Jasper story is pretty sad, however it is pretty much the same
story as most US manufacturing..Things were great in the 40's-50's and 60's..
Corporations pocketed all the profits and reinvested very little in modernizing
their plants and facilities..
Regards,
Tom
DANDRUMZ
RE: Mixing wood...
You really would not believe how different the drums do sound.. I know I
wouldn't have. We just had 3 kits set up last week, identical in sizes,
hardware, heads, shell thickness, bearing edges, etc.etc... The sound
difference was amazing just by switching types of wood in the plys...
I used to be very skeptical on this issue..Not any longer..
Cheers,
Tom
Mike C.
Hello EVERYBODY, I just wanted to take a minute and say HI!!!!
Hey Tom, please tell us more about the test you did with the drums with all
the same heads and tunning ect but differant woods. I personally have done
these tests before and found differances too, between birch and maple. I did
this test when I worked at Pearl between the Masters Maple and Birch series.
As you know they both have the same shell spec's just differant wood. I
found the main differance was mostly in sustain and where the drums liked to
be tuned for maxium resonance. The test was a real eye opener.
--
Mike Carter
Aquarian, Drum Workshop, Paiste
World Class Percussion
DANDRUMZ <dand...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000619091918...@ng-co1.aol.com...
Russell Lane
> As you know they both have the same shell spec's just differant wood. I
> found the main differance was mostly in sustain and where the drums liked
to
> be tuned for maxium resonance.
And.......???
Okay, I'm on the hook. Please describe the differences in sustain and
tuning.
Cheers -
Ray Ayotte
Nice to hear from you. Your partner in crime, John Van Ness, just posted
over the weekend as well. Is there collusion or is this just
coincidence? :)
I am very interested in what you learned from testing the Masters Maple
and Birch series. Firstly, I was not aware that the Masters Maple and
Masters Birch were identical. Do you recall the shell specs: overall
shell thickness, number of plys, thickness of each ply? I don't recall
exactly, but I thought they were different.
Also, what did you find were the differences in sound between the two.
You mention sustain - which sustained longer? Which was brighter? More
centred? Warmer? More attack? etc... lotsa sound properties to consider.
Do you recall if the Pearl Masters' maple species was Rock Maple? The
Birch species?
I wonder if any comparisons were made as to actual weight of the two
shells (interesting to know if the thickness is identical in both
shells).
Also, do you recall the sizes of drums tested? bass drum - toms - snare?
What heads were used?
I know I am asking for a lot of info, and to be fair to the test
results, I should probably be asking lots more.
You wrote "where the drums liked to be tuned for maximum resonance." Do
you mean by this the "sweet spot" in the tuning range - the pitch at
which the drum really sings?
I too would like to learn lots more about the results of the Premier
testing.
I hope you are well. I am sure you are very busy with all of DW's
impressive new developments: new shellmaking, moving to new facilities,
the Pacific line, and all the other things - you're probably running at
a frantic pace.
Are you still indulging your passion for making boats go way faster than
they should?
take care,
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
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"Mike C." wrote:
>
> Hello EVERYBODY, I just wanted to take a minute and say HI!!!!
> Hey Tom, please tell us more about the test you did with the drums with all
> the same heads and tunning ect but differant woods. I personally have done
> these tests before and found differances too, between birch and maple. I did
> this test when I worked at Pearl between the Masters Maple and Birch series.
> As you know they both have the same shell spec's just differant wood. I
> found the main differance was mostly in sustain and where the drums liked to
Rev. Poindexter incognito
<rus...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> Mike -
>
> > As you know they both have the same shell spec's just differant wood. I
> > found the main differance was mostly in sustain and where the drums liked
> to
> > be tuned for maxium resonance.
>
> And.......???
>
> Okay, I'm on the hook. Please describe the differences in sustain and
> tuning.
>
> Cheers -
Think about it: each drum has a "sweet" frequency that it like to be tuned to.
This is going to change depending on the wood. Birch has a different
density than maple.
Try as they might to isolate the shell from the moving column of air, they
can't. The two affect one another.
I don't have a maple kit to A-B, but I'll bet the birch kit naturally
sustains more than the maple.
Mike?
RP
Mike C.
I am leaving to go out of town again this morning so I will post a reply in
detail when I get back this weekend. see ya
--
Mike Carter
Aquarian, Drum Workshop, Paiste
World Class Percussion
Ray Ayotte <ayo...@home.com> wrote in message
news:394EF559...@home.com...
> Hello Mike,
> Nice to hear from you. Your partner in crime, John Van Ness, just posted
> over the weekend as well. Is there collusion or is this just
> coincidence? :)
> I am very interested in what you learned from testing the Masters Maple
> and Birch series. SNIP........
Ray Ayotte
Why do you think birch would sustain more than maple?
Does a denser material effect a shorter sustain than a less dense
material?
How do all the various drum elements - shell, counterhoop, tension
system, support system - all work together to dampen the drum head
sustain?
As one of the "drum elements" how does a shell (and it's material
composition) affect the sustain of the head?
hmmmmmmmmm....
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
Ray Ayotte
Bon voyage.
I look forward to your reply.
Rev. Poindexter incognito
> Hey Rev,
>
> Why do you think birch would sustain more than maple?
> Does a denser material effect a shorter sustain than a less dense
> material?
> How do all the various drum elements - shell, counterhoop, tension
> system, support system - all work together to dampen the drum head
> sustain?
> As one of the "drum elements" how does a shell (and it's material
> composition) affect the sustain of the head?
> hmmmmmmmmm....
>
> Ray Ayotte
> ayo...@home.com
I'm simply going from my own observations. Before I got my birch kit we
used a maple kit, then a beech kit - 7 nights per week. The birch kit has
more sustain and more focused sound than either of the other two.
I'm not being scientific, just observant. Sure there are differences in the
drums. The same heads and same sizes. Maple kit was Ludwig/Gretsch, beech
kit was Sonor and the birch kit was Sonor. The argument that shell material
makes no difference in the sound doesn't SEEM to hold water. The drum shell
has a resonant frequency and it will add to the sound of the drum - unless
you make it of felt-lined concrete.
RP
Ray Ayotte
Your "...felt-lined concrete..." shell would still have a resonant
frequency, but could you hear it, let alone measure it? In one of
Sonor's older catalogues where they describe tests they'd done in
laboratory conditions (affiliated with some university in Germany) they
seemed to suggest that a shell with basically no resonance would be
ideal: all head sound. I don't think so.
I believe that birch sounds different from maple sounds different from
beech sounds different from...
The point I have been trying to get across to everyone in many of my
questioning posts, you have nailed with your comment "...I'm not being
scientific, just observant...". We drummers are the only ones who will
"KNOW" the differences, however minute and possibly immeasurable. Do you
realize how "nuts" others (non-drummers) think we are when we go through
a few dozen pair of sticks (all identical in size and weight) and select
only a couple of pair as being acceptable?
Look at what we go through with cymbals and heads. And, the more we know
the more discerning we get. For a bunch of people who smack things with
a vengeance, we sure are a fussy lot.
However, from a manufacturer's point of view these differences must in
some way be identifiable - measurable - so that improvements can be
made.
So, "which do you prefer?" is one question, "why?" is another question
and "what makes it so?" is quite another matter. Sometimes I feel we are
all blind people discussing various hues of yellow.
You point "...The argument that shell material makes no difference in
the sound doesn't SEEM to hold water..." should be modified to "DOES NOT
hold water".
Everything makes a difference.
Ray Ayotte
ayo...@home.com
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