Bonham
robschuh
always found it odd that so many people thought Bonham was a hard
hitter. He was not at all. If you check him out on Youtube you will
see that he never hits that hard. I've never understood the guys who
beat the shit out of their drums when they are miced up. If you're
playing acoustically and everyone else is cranked up it's one thing,
but my guess is 90% of the bashers do it for show because it certainly
isn't musical. I really didn't realize how much I was influenced by
Bonham until I started going back and listening to LZ more. I know
that sounds odd coming from a "Jazz" guy, but I've been going back and
listening to all the stuff I listened to as a kid like the Beatles,
The Who, Zeppelin, Chicago, Blood Sweat and Tears and a bunch of other
stuff. I know a lot of people like to bash Ringo, but shit, what he
played with them was perfect for the music. Can you imagine how fucked
up the Beatles would have sounded with Keith Moon yet he was PERFECT
for the Who. Come to think of it, it's really rare that a drummer made
such a huge difference in the sound of a band. Both Moon and Bonham
basically killed their bands when they died. Granted, the Who sounds
great with Zack Starkey, but I saw them with Kenny Jones and they
sucked. Moon was like an uncle to Zack, so that's why he can pull that
gig off. I can't think of 2 drummers who changed the sound of a band
more than those 2 and in Jazz I would say Tony Williams with Miles and
Elvin with Coltrane completely changed those bands too. Both Miles and
Trane were both strong enough as leaders to go forward without those
guys, but Zeppelin was shot in the head when Bonham died. You just
can't copy that feel of his.
--
--
Robert Schuh
"Everything that elevates an individual above the herd and
intimidates the neighbour is henceforth called evil; and
the fair, modest, submissive and conforming mentality,
the mediocrity of desires attains moral designations and honors"
- Nietzsche
Sean Conolly
news:76e5e6f7-1439-44cc...@n2g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
> I'm listening to some old Zeppelin while I'm posting this and I've
> always found it odd that so many people thought Bonham was a hard
> hitter. He was not at all. If you check him out on Youtube you will
> see that he never hits that hard. I've never understood the guys who
> beat the shit out of their drums when they are miced up. If you're
> playing acoustically and everyone else is cranked up it's one thing,
> but my guess is 90% of the bashers do it for show because it certainly
> isn't musical.
Well, I'm a moderately hard hitter and fully mic'd, but that just gets it up
to a consistant level with the rest of the amps on stage. When you're
backing up a typical rock band there's not a lot of dynamic headroom
available, so the difference between your loud parts and your quiet parts is
less about volume and more about tone and feel.
Going back to Bonham, he had this way of making the parts sound like he was
beating the hell out of the drums when he wasn't. I try to emulate that when
I'm playing the heavier tunes.
Sean
robschuh
> "robschuh" <robertsc...@live.com> wrote in message
I think Bonham's ability to get that big tone was a combination of his
technique and the fact that he used Acrylic or Steel shelled drums.
Those drums inherently have a big sound and most drummers don't
realize how much technique has to do with getting the best sound out
of the drums and even more so cymbals. That's why people like
Spizzichino and companies like Istanbul are trying to make a "Tony
Williams" ride cymbal. Even if we were in Star Trek time and could
replicate Tony's cymbal down to the molecular level, it would NEVER
sound like it did when Tony played it because it was Tony's hands that
brought out the sound of the cymbals. To be able to really get a good
cymbal sound, especially in Jazz, it take a lot of hard work. I
remember my first lesson with Steve Bagby when I was a sophomore in
high school, I brought my cymbals to my lesson and when Steve played
them, they sounded FAR better than when I played them. It took me
years to be able to really get a good sound out of a cymbal. I now
mainly use the thin Dream Bliss cymbals along with one super thin 22
Bosphorus a very rare super thin Spizz that actually got a crack in
shipping, but it was professionally cut out and has been great for
almost 10 year and a 22 Stainless Kepplinger. When other drummers sit
in on my kit, they always over play my cymbals and they sound like
shit. It's the same thing with all the electric bass players wanting
old Fender Jazz basses to sound like Jaco. Jaco would have sounded
like Jaco on a $299.00 Fret less Squier. It was his hands that made
him sound like he did. That's why 90% of the advertising in music is
bullshit. They want to make you think that you will sound like your
favorite player if you buy the same gear, but you never will. The
advertising in music makes me sick to my stomach.
John
> I'm listening to some old Zeppelin while I'm posting this and I've
> always found it odd that so many people thought Bonham was a hard
> hitter. He was not at all. If you check him out on Youtube you will
> see that he never hits that hard.
I think it was due to what he was playing. 26" kick with loose resonant
head, 14" mounted tom and 15" hats were all bigger than the norm and had
that sound that was simply heavier, which equated to harder.
--
John
Pete Pemberton
I think this is the most overlooked aspect of playing lots of
instruments. Neil Peart went to Freddy Gruber to learn the "dance".
Like you said, it's not about 'drum shit'. Although the drum shit is
fun to play sometimes. :-)
> The
> advertising in music makes me sick to my stomach.
>
> --
Guh. The older I get the more I agree. And the proaganda isn't even
funny or tongue in cheek like alot of the old Ludwig ads. The Tommy Lee
ad and subsequent 'apology' did it for me. Remember the old Slingerland
ad for Les DeMerle? It didn't even have a drum in it, he was bending a
cymbal in half while he was playing it. I have never forgotten that ad.
Plus it was black and white. Very hip!
PP
Sean Conolly
Yes, it's absolutely true that a good player will make the same instrument
sound better than a mediocre player. I think part of that is the good player
is better at discovering and using the different tones available and then
working with the tones. As long as the instrument isn't so bad that it gets
in the way, you can make good music with it.
As for music advertising, well the two big misconceptions that advertisers
use are (1) anyone can become a master, and that if you're serious you need
an expensive instrument to get there. It's just not true - there really is
such a thing as talent, and talented players can become masters on lesser
instruments, while less talented players will only get so far no matter what
they play. That may sound cynical, but it's what I've observed in my life.
Sean
Starfish Relations
that tone was mostly technique. This happened when I heard Terry Lynn
Carrington, who has tremendous tone. At first I thought it was just
excellent recording, but eventually it sank in that it wasn't.
Going to jam sessions and hearing two different drummers play the same
drums really nailed it down. One guy makes the kit sound like junk,
the other.... I have no clue how it is done.
Andy
> I think Bonham's ability to get that big tone was a combination of his
> technique and the fact that he used Acrylic or Steel shelled drums.
Bonham is just another example of that special ability to make it sound
better than perfect, ie. having such an impact that does not just come
from perfect time or even technique... I reckon sound is 50% of it, the
other half some kind of genius.
Andy
jegin
SpizJizzzichino, Williams, Bosforus, Bliss, and his wannabe pasl Jaco -All
in one post.
Schuh you have the talent on drums of a mentally ill spazz.
tell me are you still sucking cock in the mens room up at Chances Are?
"robschuh" <rober...@live.com> wrote in message
news:76e5e6f7-1439-44cc...@n2g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
robschuh
That can be said of any musician who did something different with
their instrument. Just look at Coltrane, Bird, Hendrix or Pastorius.
They all changed the way their instruments and music was played.
oldschool
A lot of Bonham's sound is big drums, tuned well (*not* tuned low) so
they sing, recorded in big rooms, not close miked. That doesn't take
anything away from him, those were his choices. He got the sound he
wanted to get.
He was also a strong motherf**ker. No big theatrical smashing, but
still a lot of power.
Another guy who IMO was indispensable to a particular band's sound was
Mitch Mitchell with Jimi.
baby dodds
"hitting hard". which at least in terms of his right foot he is. when
he brings the bass drum out so strongly it makes the whole mix of his
four limbs sound bigger. sometimes i think that people
who do not have his right foot technique hear him and then try to get
his big sound by wacking the snare harder. perhaps they would be
better served by studying how he uses his bass drum.
on a related theme i think alot of jazz drummers who start
learning the music late in the musics history sometimes develop a
disdain for playing four beats on the bass drum but when you hear a
master like the late great ed thigpen play four beats on the bass
drum with his GREAT technique it feels spectacular.
Sean Conolly
news:adaf046c-9719-4635...@d16g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...
I remember one night playing with a group of <real> jazz guys, and getting
scolded by the bass player for playing fours on the bass drum. I was used to
playing with the not-so-great who needed a little reminding of where the
downbeat was, but appreantly in be-bop you get the groove from cymbals and
high-hat, and use the bass and snare for puctuation.
Sean
Joe
"robschuh" <rober...@live.com> wrote in message
news:76e5e6f7-1439-44cc...@n2g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Joe
"jegin" <4g...@bi44it.net> wrote in message
news:ij26kc$pat$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Perry Justus
I think the reason a lot of people think he hit hard is because, in
the first year of Led Zeppelin, he really did. This was back before
PAs were really strong, and he likely had to fight to be heard. His
feel during the first year was looser and more aggressive, IMO. It
may also have a lot to do with the fact that LZ played at an insane
volume, so any moderately forceful hit he made probably blew peoples'
eardrums out. You can definitely see him hitting hard on the Danish
TV broadcast from 1969, bringing his arms up, especially during fills,
but I think from 1971 and on, he was a lot more relaxed.
What I find interesting is that Jack DeJohnette is a REALLY heavy/hard
hitter, even with the Jarrett trio (during fours and solos, anyway)!
He's one of the few guys who can play fours at four times the volume
of the rest of the band and make it work. Paul Motian also can be a
really hard hitter, but he's the last guy anyone would accuse of being
too drum-y.
Perry
Perry Justus
<babyd...@gmail.com> wrote:
> on a related theme i think alot of jazz drummers who start
>learning the music late in the musics history sometimes develop a
>disdain for playing four beats on the bass drum but when you hear a
>master like the late great ed thigpen play four beats on the bass
>drum with his GREAT technique it feels spectacular.
Some guys still feather, you just can't hear it unless isolated in the
mix. Brian Blade is one guy who comes to mind.
Perry
Perry Justus
The bass player was a moron! The only reason you should've been
scolded for feathering is if it was too loud. You should be felt, not
heard, and even then, it's sort of just the motion that counts. ALL
the bebop guys feathered, sometimes loudly even, especially on '40s
and early '50s recordings. Roy Haynes is always playing his bass
drum. Jeff Ballard feathers. So does Jack (sometimes). One must
learn how to feather quietly and consistently while still punctuating
with the bass drum.
Perry
Perry Justus
His heads were all fairly tight. There are accounts of other people
playing his bass drum and noting that it sounded like a tin can from
behind the set.
Perry
Benj
wrote:
> >I think it was due to what he was playing. 26" kick with loose resonant
> >head, 14" mounted tom and 15" hats were all bigger than the norm and had
> >that sound that was simply heavier, which equated to harder.
>
> His heads were all fairly tight. There are accounts of other people
> playing his bass drum and noting that it sounded like a tin can from
> behind the set.
Which means it all revolves around setup and technique. Skill is a
better word. One mistake I've seen drummers make (me too!) is to make
your drums sound great where YOU are sitting! That is certainly the
WRONG place for perfect sound! The right place is in the audience (or
recording etc.)
And this explains a lot of the hard hitters to a degree. The
difference is the move from acoustic playing to miced and from live to
recorded playing. For example, the drummer for Elton John explained to
us at a clinic that he ALWAYS plays "flat out". He had NO concept of
what "dynamics" were. Why? because when he records (which is what he
does mostly) the drums (according to him) record so much better when
"bashed" (my word not his). He actually demonstrated this and it was
true! The drums DID sound better recorded "full out" than reduced in
volume. But there is a catch here. In a recording studio the engineer
has a fader to cut back the drum volume until it matches the mix. So
yeah, you get a nice recording, but is that the way to play drums?
Well in that case maybe it is. But I can say fer sure it won't work in
jazz. Or for that matter in most live playing. In those situations
you are playing in a BAND. There is interaction between players.
Communication and ideas are flowing back and forth. The goal is to
have the BAND sound to listeners as ONE "instrument". It is not just
individual instruments (all playing full out, I presume) mixed
together electronically to give some kind of imitation of a band.
So that "explains" it all. But the part that "bashers" never seem to
understand is that to sound loud and "powerful" you don't need to
"bash". If you've ever seen the great drummers play, they NEVER
"bash". Hey, I have personally witnessed Elvin playing right in front
of me! I can assure you that when he needed it Elvin could call up
ALL the volume and power he needed even as old as he was at the time.
But there was NEVER any "bashing" going on. Elvin bashing? Surely you
jest. Elvin got his power and volume from TECHNIQUE not from
STRENGTH. How could he just use strength at his age?