16X20 vs 14X20 for small clubs
martinbr
years I played with a 14x18" bass drum since I mainly just play small
group jazz gigs or casuals. But I had to sell my 40 year old Gretsch
drum kit due to financial problems. Of course now Gretsch are way out
of my price range. I think there way over priced anyway.
So I am looking at other brands now, but the dilema is that most of
the modern bass drums are of the gun barrel type. I suppose it was
started for the rock drummers to get more projection out of there bass
drum. Personally I would rather have a 14X20, I am finding it very
hard to find one that I like.
So is the 16X20 much different from the old traditional style bass
drums. Actually, the 16X20 is bigger than a 14X22, but I don't know if
it projects more.
Can some of the drum gurus here bring some light on this for me?
Thanks in advance,
martinbr
Sean Conolly
news:43c09a87-1576-41da...@h40g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>I am in the process of putting another set together. For the past 30+
> years I played with a 14x18" bass drum since I mainly just play small
> group jazz gigs or casuals. But I had to sell my 40 year old Gretsch
> drum kit due to financial problems. Of course now Gretsch are way out
> of my price range. I think there way over priced anyway.
>
> So I am looking at other brands now, but the dilema is that most of
> the modern bass drums are of the gun barrel type. I suppose it was
> started for the rock drummers to get more projection out of there bass
> drum. Personally I would rather have a 14X20, I am finding it very
> hard to find one that I like.
>
> So is the 16X20 much different from the old traditional style bass
> drums. Actually, the 16X20 is bigger than a 14X22, but I don't know if
> it projects more.
How about a DIY project, starting with a Gretsch 14x20 Jasper shell? These
come up on ebay regularly, and if you don't care about the collector's value
you can a cheap one for rewrap/refinish.
I've been kicking around this idea myself. I still remember how good my old
Camco 14x20 sounded, and that was also a Jasper shell.
Sean
martinbr
> "martinbr" <martinb3...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
I thought about that, but I just don't have the space or the time to
take on a project like that. Altough, it's looking like that is the
only way to find a 14X20 Gretsch Bass drum that wouldn't cost you a
arm and a leg. The search goes on.....
martinbr
Pete Pemberton
The added depth adds low end and punch. I am currently gigging a 20x20
in a country rock act and it absolutely kills. I also have an 18x16,
and an 18x14. The 16 again has more low end and punch that is hard to
dial in with the shallower drums. These observations are with both
miked and acoustic (unmiked) applications.
PP
martinbr
>
> - Show quoted text -
It sounds like for small jazz gigs you are using a 18" bass and the
larger one for other types of music. I take it you play all styles. I
can play almost any style as well, but choose to concentrate on
learning bebop jazz.
So, if I look at buying a 16X18 which seems to be a little bit more
common, this would be a better choice over a 16X20 for the kind of
places that I normally play. This usually consist of small brewing
houses or coffee shops. A 16X20 might blow them out of the water if
they are sitting three feet away....
Pete Pemberton
> larger one for other types of music. I take it you play all styles. I
> can play almost any style as well, but choose to concentrate on
> learning bebop jazz.
>
> So, if I look at buying a 16X18 which seems to be a little bit more
> common, this would be a better choice over a 16X20 for the kind of
> places that I normally play. This usually consist of small brewing
> houses or coffee shops. A 16X20 might blow them out of the water if
> they are sitting three feet away....
I would tend to agree with this. I have played large combo band gigs
with the 18x16. It's a very versatile drum.
PP
oldschool
sound. A shallower drum will give you a more diffuse, spread-out
sound, that will blend more with the other instruments rather than
jumping out of the mix.
If you're playing pop music where you need a tight, focussed kick
sound, the longer drum will do you well. If you're playing jazz,
traditional blues, or older pop styles, where you want the kick to
blend a little more with the rest of the band instead of kicking them
in the ass, you'll like the shallower drum better.
The difference between a 14x20 and a 16x20 is not that great, if you
like the old school sound but can't find a 14x20 in your price range
you might just try a 16x20 with a coated, unmuffled or lighter weight
batter head and a front head without a hole. Try a Remo PowerStroke
III for the batter and coated Emperor or Ambassador for the front head
with no hole cut in it, with either no muffling or very light muffling
inside the drum.
If you really want the 14x20, hang out on ebay or you'll local drum
shop, you'll find something that will work for you. Doesn't have to
be a high-zoot collectible like Gretsch or Rogers, there are lots of
nice old kits kicking around.
Good luck!
Steve Turner
> As Pete and others note, 16x20 is going to give you a more focussed
> sound. A shallower drum will give you a more diffuse, spread-out
> sound, that will blend more with the other instruments rather than
> jumping out of the mix.
>
> If you're playing pop music where you need a tight, focussed kick
> sound, the longer drum will do you well. If you're playing jazz,
> traditional blues, or older pop styles, where you want the kick to
> blend a little more with the rest of the band instead of kicking them
> in the ass, you'll like the shallower drum better.
You know what, I just can't buy into that theory; it goes against the
laws of physics (not that I'm any physics professor). With more
distance between the heads, and more volume of air to move around inside
the shell, how can this result in a "more focused sound"? It's
certainly not true for snare drums or toms, why would it be true for
kick drums?
In my opinion, the 14x20 kick size is pertinere the holy grail
configuration. I've also played many 14x22 kicks, and those aren't bad
either. But when I bought my "dream" kit back in the eighties
(Gretsch/Jasper USA Maples, which I still own), I went with the deeper
drums that were popular at the time, including a 16x22 kick. I like
them fine, but I never got the feeling that the extra depth on the kick
was buying me anything, and many times I've wished I'd just gotten the
14x22 size instead. My two cents...
--
Free bad advice available here.
To reply, eat the taco.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bbqboyee/
Pete Pemberton
<bbqb...@swtacobell.net.invalid> said:
IME the effect is not as noticeable on a 22. Maybe a little more low
end, yes, but not as punchy as a 22x18, or 22x20. Drums with the extra
depth, 18, 20, etc., are more focused and punchy, again IME.
PP
oldschool
> laws of physics (not that I'm any physics professor). With more
> distance between the heads, and more volume of air to move around inside
> the shell, how can this result in a "more focused sound"? It's
> certainly not true for snare drums or toms, why would it be true for
> kick drums?
I don't know what the physics are. Set up a shallow kick and a deep
kick and listen to them. You'll hear it.
Shell depth isn't the only factor, head choice also comes into it.
But shell depth is a significant part of it.
I agree that the same doesn't hold true for snares, but snares are
kind of a unique beast. It sure is true for toms, however.
Not trying to fire up a flamewar here, however the sound is what it is.
Brandon Paluzzi
I'm going to agree with Steve here. Long kicks + power toms always
sounded unfocused + slow to me. Attack + definition is definitely in
greater quantities in my shallower drums (in kicks, snares, and toms)
(my kick sizes, just as a point of reference)
16x13, 18x14, 18x16, 20x12, 20x14, 20x18, 22x14, 22x16, 22x18, 26x14,
26x16
b
oldschool
When I'm talking about "focus" I'm talking more or less about
directionality and how the tone of the drum blends with the other
instruments. By "directionality" I mean that if you sit in the room
and listen to the band with your eyes closed, you can hear more
precisely where the drum physically is. By "blending" I mean the drum
stands out in the overall mix, rather than blending in with bass or
other low end sounds. *In my experience*, shallower drums, for
whatever reason, seem to spread their sound in the room more, and tend
to blend more with the other instruments. They don't "pop out" of the
overall mix as much.
This is all in the context of almost 100% playing without sound
reinforcement. Once what the audience hears is coming through a PA,
rather than from the original acoustic source, stuff like this is in
the hands of the audio guy, rather than you.
For the record, when I play in rooms like martinbr is talking about --
coffee houses, etc -- I often play an old Leedy 14x28. Thin maple
shell. Ambassadors on both heads, no muffling at all, no hole in the
front head. Lamb's wool beater. It fills the room with a very large
and present low end woof at very very low volume levels. You feel it
rather than hear it. It's the opposite of "punchy", although you
still feel the time for sure. Think acoustic stand up bass vs.
electric bass.
I once lent that same kick to a buddy of mine who plays in an organ
quartet -- drums, guitar, and *two* B-3's. It was cool on that gig
because the overall tone of the band is a big, fat, warm analog mass,
and the big kick just moves a lot of air and supports the fat B-3 low
end without sticking out of the mix.
Conversely, you would never, ever use a kick like that on a modern
funk or hip-hop gig, because you don't want a spread-out, blending
sound there. You want a tight, focussed, low-end punch.
Another thing that comes into play that noone has mentioned is the
kind of wood the drum is made from. Birch will have a clearer, more
articulate tone, with more of a sense of a particular pitch to it.
Maple has a more complex tone, maybe a little darker.
All of this might be moot if what martinbr is playing is mostly bop.
The kick isn't really for time keeping in that style, it's just a low
voice, like an extra-low tom. 18x16 might be perfect for that, just
because it won't spread. When I play jazz I play an 18x16 Sonor
designer maple kick, it sounds great.
Long story short, the best thing for martinbr to do is to go play and/
or listen to a bunch of kits and see what makes his ears perk up.
Especially play -- play some kits with different shell sizes, head
configurations, etc., and see what makes your hands and ears happy.
Chacun a son gout.
oldschool
As a suggestion, check out some of Jay Bellerose' stuff. He plays a
lot of old gear, including old kicks that are relatively shallow (and
often kinda large) by modern standards. His kick sound is low, solid,
fat, and warm, but kind of spready rather than tight. It blends and
supports, rather than punches through the mix.
Plus, he's a beautiful sweet player, and lots of fun to listen to.
Steve Turner
Nice post, and that closing paragraph pretty much sums it up. Thanks
for sharing.
--
"Even if your wife is happy but you're unhappy, you're still happier
than you'd be if you were happy and your wife was unhappy." - Red Green
Perry Justus
I recommend a 14x20. The shallower depth will give you more
sensitivity and perceived volume. Any low end you get in a deeper
drum will probably be covered up by the bass guitar. :)
Perry
Perry Justus
<russel...@comcast.net> wrote:
>As Pete and others note, 16x20 is going to give you a more focussed
>sound. A shallower drum will give you a more diffuse, spread-out
>sound, that will blend more with the other instruments rather than
>jumping out of the mix.
>
>If you're playing pop music where you need a tight, focussed kick
>sound, the longer drum will do you well. If you're playing jazz,
>traditional blues, or older pop styles, where you want the kick to
>blend a little more with the rest of the band instead of kicking them
>in the ass, you'll like the shallower drum better.
>
>The difference between a 14x20 and a 16x20 is not that great, if you
>like the old school sound but can't find a 14x20 in your price range
>you might just try a 16x20 with a coated, unmuffled or lighter weight
>batter head and a front head without a hole. Try a Remo PowerStroke
>III for the batter and coated Emperor or Ambassador for the front head
>with no hole cut in it, with either no muffling or very light muffling
>inside the drum.
>
>If you really want the 14x20, hang out on ebay or you'll local drum
>shop, you'll find something that will work for you. Doesn't have to
>be a high-zoot collectible like Gretsch or Rogers, there are lots of
>nice old kits kicking around.
>
>Good luck!
IMHO, the 14" depth gives a more focused sound. A deeper drum may be
muddy, or you may have to hit it harder to get more sound out of it
(it depends on the drum, too). I play an 18x20 that I love, but it's
stave construction, half an inch thick, and not as sharp/punchy as my
14x22.
Perry
Perry Justus
<russel...@comcast.net> wrote:
>For the record, when I play in rooms like martinbr is talking about --
>coffee houses, etc -- I often play an old Leedy 14x28. Thin maple
>shell. Ambassadors on both heads, no muffling at all, no hole in the
>front head. Lamb's wool beater. It fills the room with a very large
>and present low end woof at very very low volume levels. You feel it
>rather than hear it. It's the opposite of "punchy", although you
>still feel the time for sure. Think acoustic stand up bass vs.
>electric bass.
Agree completely! I have a 14x28 Ludwig with Imperial lugs, and I
used to gig frequently with a 10x28 Ludwig Scotch bass (front head
removed, 'cos the ultra-shallow depth closed it up when both heads
were on it). Big drums and big cymbals can both be much, much quieter
than smaller ones, if you're not pounding them.
Your Leedy is probably poplar with thin inner/outer plies of maple
(basically a 1-ply steam bent shell with veneers), unless it's one of
those rare old 1-ply beasts... in which case, I'm very jealous.
>
>Conversely, you would never, ever use a kick like that on a modern
>funk or hip-hop gig, because you don't want a spread-out, blending
>sound there. You want a tight, focussed, low-end punch.
Hmm, I think a 14x28 would sound fantastic on a funk or hip-hop gig,
provided it was tuned higher and padded with a towel and/or felt
strips. IMO, large bass drums tuned tight sound much more punchy and
tight than 18x22s tuned low. :)
Perry