Loss of highs when lowering volume pot
Joey Goldstein
Hi
For several years now I've been using a mod on all my guitars that was
suggested in Donald Brosnac's Book - Guitar Electronics For Musicians;
whereby I solder a .001 mf capacitor plus a 150k ohm resister across the
input and the output lugs of my master volume pot. I've even got a
switch that allows me to A/B between the cap/resistor and no
cap/resistor settings.
The cap makes it so that less highs are rolled off to ground when the
volume pot is lowered. This is a trick that Fender used to use on
Telecasters. The cap by itself results in a very thin trebly sound at
lower volumes. The resistor makes it so that less bottom end is rolled
off at lower volumes too so the result is pretty close to the pot being
wide open even at lower volume settings. Supposedly Shecter used to use
the cap and the resistor together on some of their guitars.
This works pretty well except that:
a. The taper of the volume pot gets screwed up such that the extremely
low volume pot settings are still quite loud.
b. The fidelity at low volume settings is still slightly compromised
compared to when the pot is wide open.
1. Have any of you ever used different values of resistor or capacitor
in a circuit like this that gives better results?
2. Does anyone know of another way to accomplish the desired result?
(I.e. The same tone at any volume.)
Note: I use the typical value audio taper volume pots for single coils
and for humbuckers (250k for SC 500k for HB). Some of my guitars have a
mixture of SS and HB pickups. On these guitars I use 500k pots.
--
Regards:
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
Richard Stern
: 2. Does anyone know of another way to accomplish the desired result?
: (I.e. The same tone at any volume.)
Use a buffer/preamp. I can give you a very simple schematic for a
unity gain buffer that works really well, and uses very little power.
I've installed them in some of my solid body electrics with good results.
I also built one into a little box, which can be worn on a guitar strap
like a wireless. By using a very short 1' cable from guitar to box, you
get the same basic result, without putting the preamp in the gutar.
Richard Stern
http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/sternr.htm
Joey Goldstein
Richard Stern wrote:
>
> In rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
> : 2. Does anyone know of another way to accomplish the desired result?
> : (I.e. The same tone at any volume.)
>
> Use a buffer/preamp.
Really?
I've used buffer/preamps before but for the purpose of trying to avoid
capacitance thru long cables and FX chains. I never noticed that they
ever made the volume pot on my guitar any more efficient though.
There was a little buffer/preamp made by a company called PAX that
plugged right into the guitar's output jack. It worked well but sounded
too sterile. It did nothing for my volume pot though.
Ditto for the MXR Micro Amp pedal.
What makes your buffer/preamp better for this purpose?
Does it also take care of the capacitance problem?
I've been looking for a really good transparent buffer.
> I can give you a very simple schematic for a
> unity gain buffer that works really well, and uses very little power.
> I've installed them in some of my solid body electrics with good results.
> I also built one into a little box, which can be worn on a guitar strap
> like a wireless. By using a very short 1' cable from guitar to box, you
> get the same basic result, without putting the preamp in the gutar.
>
> Richard Stern
> http://u1.netgate.net/~kirby34/rsg/sternr.htm
--
Joe Ryan
pedal between
the guitar and the amp. The tone stays fat even when you are quiet.
Joe
Joey Goldstein wrote:
> Hi
>
> For several years now I've been using a mod on all my guitars that was
> suggested in Donald Brosnac's Book - Guitar Electronics For Musicians;
> whereby I solder a .001 mf capacitor plus a 150k ohm resister across the
> input and the output lugs of my master volume pot. I've even got a
> switch that allows me to A/B between the cap/resistor and no
> cap/resistor settings.
>
> The cap makes it so that less highs are rolled off to ground when the
> volume pot is lowered. This is a trick that Fender used to use on
> Telecasters. The cap by itself results in a very thin trebly sound at
> lower volumes. The resistor makes it so that less bottom end is rolled
> off at lower volumes too so the result is pretty close to the pot being
> wide open even at lower volume settings. Supposedly Shecter used to use
> the cap and the resistor together on some of their guitars.
>
> This works pretty well except that:
> a. The taper of the volume pot gets screwed up such that the extremely
> low volume pot settings are still quite loud.
> b. The fidelity at low volume settings is still slightly compromised
> compared to when the pot is wide open.
>
> 1. Have any of you ever used different values of resistor or capacitor
> in a circuit like this that gives better results?
> 2. Does anyone know of another way to accomplish the desired result?
> (I.e. The same tone at any volume.)
>
> Note: I use the typical value audio taper volume pots for single coils
> and for humbuckers (250k for SC 500k for HB). Some of my guitars have a
> mixture of SS and HB pickups. On these guitars I use 500k pots.
>
Joey Goldstein
Joe Ryan wrote:
>
> You might try leaving the guitar volume wide open and put a foot volume
> pedal between
> the guitar and the amp. The tone stays fat even when you are quiet.
>
> Joe
I've been doing that for years. That's what I'm trying to avoid. Thanks anyway.
Jon Masters, Psy.D.
Check out the Tuck Andress site (don't know the address off hand). I
remember him discussing this issue a bit.
regards,
Jon Masters
On Mon, 06 Dec 1999 02:04:48 GMT, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net>
wrote:
ALAN THOMPSON
changes the taper of the pot, so just experiment with different values to
get it the way you want. I just stuck some test leads across the pot and
fooled around with different values till I hit it right, then soldered it
together. You may need different values for different pickups/guitars. By
the way, the resistor is not necessary for the cap bypass, teles use only
the cap.
A.T.
Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:384B19BF...@nowhere.net...
Joey Goldstein
How many pico farads equals .001 micro farads?
How many pico fards equals .02mf?
TIA
Joey Goldstein
The Tele thing, with a sole .001mf cap, sounds too brite and thin at
lower volumes. What other value of capacitor might give the full range
results I want?
Would a cap without a resistor still affect the taper of the volume pot?
Darryl
You were saying......
>How does the conversion between micro farads and pico farads work?
>
>How many pico farads equals .001 micro farads?
>
>How many pico fards equals .02mf?
the sequence goes micro, nano, pico getting 1000 times smaller
each time.
micro is 10E-06
nano is 10E-09
pico is 10W-12 of a Farad
.02uF (microFarad) is 20 nF(nanoFarads) and 20,000 pF (picoFarads)
__ \ \ __ /__ / \
| | _ \ / / _ \
| | ___ \ / / ___ \
____/_/ _\____|____|_/ _\
Mark Garvin
>Is there a way to get the desired result without using a resistor at all?
>The Tele thing, with a sole .001mf cap, sounds too brite and thin at
>lower volumes. What other value of capacitor might give the full range
>results I want?
>Would a cap without a resistor still affect the taper of the volume pot?
Hi Joey,
The typical circuit uses a cap and resistor in parallel (see Lindy
Fralin's site). The resistor is the real culprit in affecting the
pot taper, so try leaving it out. I recommend putting a resistor
in *series* instead.
The cap bypass works kinda like a bright switch on a Fender amp.
The problem is that the treble boost just keeps climbing with higher
frequencies. If you want to minimize the bright edge, a resistor in
*series* with the bypass cap will limit the max amount of treble boost.
The resulting curve hits a 'plateau' at a certain frequency and does
not rise appreciably above that point.
The 'corner frequency' is determined by the cap value and vol pot value
(with higher value vol pot, use a *smaller* value cap). I could post
the math, but practical results depend on everything from your pickups
to cables. It's more easily determined by experimentation.
The 'plateau' is determined by the series resistor in comparison to
the cap value.
I don't remember what value pots you are using, but if you have a .001
across a 500k, I could see why that would be too bright, esp for jazz.
Try putting about 75k to 100k resistor in series with the .001 for a start.
MGarvin
William J Chapman
I have found the often recommended .001 mf [=1000pf] to be way too
bright and brittle [I prefer no resistor]. Try much smaller values..
150 to maybe 600 pf is the usable range to my ears, and most of my
guitars have about 300pf. I like to have my amp turned up to a good
level of natural output tube distortion/compression [50w non master
Marshall with a powerbrake] and get back to a "clean" sound using the
guitar's vol. control. It's pretty cool.. I can get very Fendery clean
stringy sounds from a Les Paul into a Marshall with vol. down, and big
fat slabs of ZZ Top tones with it turned up. PRS guitars have pretty
much always had this groovy little mod. The caps are cheap..just buy a
range of em and experiment. BC
Bill
>
> For several years now I've been using a mod on all my guitars that was
> suggested in Donald Brosnac's Book - Guitar Electronics For Musicians;
> whereby I solder a .001 mf capacitor plus a 150k ohm resister across the
> input and the output lugs of my master volume pot. I've even got a
> switch that allows me to A/B between the cap/resistor and no
> cap/resistor settings.
Are your guitars wired so that you only have one "master volume" control
for the overall level? If so, you might try wiring that pot as a
voltage divider -- the guitar's signal goes across the outer two lugs of
the pot, and the output signal goes from the wiper to the output jack.
To my ears, this makes for very consistent tone as you lower the volume,
but it won't work if you want a volume knob for each pickup because of
interaction between the pots.
(It's been a while since I've messed around with this stuff, so I hope
I'm recalling this correctly.)
Joey Goldstein
Bill wrote:
>
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
> >
> > For several years now I've been using a mod on all my guitars that was
> > suggested in Donald Brosnac's Book - Guitar Electronics For Musicians;
> > whereby I solder a .001 mf capacitor plus a 150k ohm resister across the
> > input and the output lugs of my master volume pot. I've even got a
> > switch that allows me to A/B between the cap/resistor and no
> > cap/resistor settings.
>
> Are your guitars wired so that you only have one "master volume" control
> for the overall level? If so, you might try wiring that pot as a
> voltage divider -- the guitar's signal goes across the outer two lugs of
> the pot, and the output signal goes from the wiper to the output jack.
> To my ears, this makes for very consistent tone as you lower the volume,
> but it won't work if you want a volume knob for each pickup because of
> interaction between the pots.
I don't follow you.
I do use a single master volume. I have it wired tradionally. One lug
(an outer lug) is soldered to ground. The center lug is wired to the hot
lug on my output jack. The other lug is wired to my pickup selector switch.
Are you saying to wire the selector switch to BOTH outer lugs and to not
solder any lugs to ground? Wouldn't that just short everything out at
all settings of the volume pot? Does the middle lug still go to the
output jack?
Bill
>
> Bill wrote:
> >
> > Are your guitars wired so that you only have one "master volume" control
> > for the overall level? If so, you might try wiring that pot as a
> > voltage divider -- the guitar's signal goes across the outer two lugs of
> > the pot, and the output signal goes from the wiper to the output jack.
> > To my ears, this makes for very consistent tone as you lower the volume,
> > but it won't work if you want a volume knob for each pickup because of
> > interaction between the pots.
>
> I don't follow you.
>
> I do use a single master volume. I have it wired tradionally. One lug
> (an outer lug) is soldered to ground. The center lug is wired to the hot
> lug on my output jack. The other lug is wired to my pickup selector switch.
>
> Are you saying to wire the selector switch to BOTH outer lugs and to not
> solder any lugs to ground? Wouldn't that just short everything out at
> all settings of the volume pot? Does the middle lug still go to the
> output jack?
No, what I was describing is the same as what you're using. I used that
as an alternative to the standard wiring on my Gibsons, and felt that I
got more consistent tone when the volume knob was lowered. The factory
wiring, if I'm recalling correctly, puts each pickup between the bottom
lug and the wiper of its volume pot, meaning that at low volume
settings, you're virtually shorting out the pickup. If I remember the
theory correctly, the excessive loading of the pickup causes the high
frequency rolloff.
Mark Garvin
>mga...@panix.com (Mark Garvin) wrote:
>>The typical circuit uses a cap and resistor in parallel (see Lindy
>>Fralin's site). The resistor is the real culprit in affecting the
>>pot taper, so try leaving it out. I recommend putting a resistor
>>in *series* instead.
>>
>>The cap bypass works kinda like a bright switch on a Fender amp.
>>The problem is that the treble boost just keeps climbing with higher
>>frequencies. If you want to minimize the bright edge, a resistor in
>>*series* with the bypass cap will limit the max amount of treble boost.
>>The resulting curve hits a 'plateau' at a certain frequency and does
>>not rise appreciably above that point.
In <384bc23e....@news.mindspring.com> wj...@mindspring.com (William J Chapman) writes:
>I have found the often recommended .001 mf [=1000pf] to be way too
>bright and brittle [I prefer no resistor]. Try much smaller values..
>150 to maybe 600 pf is the usable range to my ears, and most of my
>guitars have about 300pf.
Hi Bill,
When you say you prefer no resistor, were you referring to series
resistor or parallel? Yes, .001 can be shrill with no *series*
resistor (parallel resistor won't tame it). The series resistor
allows use of higher value caps. Without it, the treble boost
keeps climbing with higher frequencies.
Another reason that series resistors can help: I like a bit of
treble rolloff when the volume is backed down. The normal rolloff
is too extreme. The peaky treble from straight cap bypass is too
extreme in the opposite direction. The series resistor effectively
balances the two. I use values that are just a touch high so that
turning down the volume will shade the highs a bit.
Much of this has to do with cable capacitance, by the way. When
the volume control is turned down, the series resistance of the
control and capacitance of the cable form a high-cut filter.
Length and type of cable will be a factor.
MGarvin
Richard Stern
I wrote:
:> Use a buffer/preamp.
: Really?
: I've used buffer/preamps before but for the purpose of trying to avoid
: capacitance thru long cables and FX chains. I never noticed that they
: ever made the volume pot on my guitar any more efficient though.
If you plugged a cable from your guitar to the buffer, you aren't
really accomplishing anything. It's the capacitance of the cable that's
causing the problem.
: There was a little buffer/preamp made by a company called PAX that
: plugged right into the guitar's output jack. It worked well but sounded
: too sterile. It did nothing for my volume pot though.
Should have worked, if it was designed right. The box I made does sound
a bit sterile, but you get NO treble roll-off when adjusting the volume
pot on the guitar.
: What makes your buffer/preamp better for this purpose?
: Does it also take care of the capacitance problem?
: I've been looking for a really good transparent buffer.
You'd have to build one, and see if you like the sound. Yes, it's a
bit sterile and hi-fi like, but that's because you're eliminating the
treble roll-off.
Richard Stern
The Divine Ms. D
(Jon Masters, Psy.D.) writes:
>Check out the Tuck Andress site (don't know the address off hand). I
>remember him discussing this issue a bit.
>
--Sharon
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/STRATQUEEN/index.html">Stratqueen's Page</A>
"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by
stupidity."
alann
>
> How does the conversion between micro farads and pico farads work?
>
> How many pico farads equals .001 micro farads?
>
> How many pico fards equals .02mf?
>
Just study the metric system.
It's the same thing.
Any metric tutorial ( including grade school )
should explain the prefixes..
a milli (whatever ) = a 1/1000 of a (whatever )..
Same thing.
GL
Alan
( who's own opinion the U.S. should have converted like Jimmy Carter proposed in the 70's
).
This damn "english" system is plain stupid!
--
======================================
al...@roava.net (km...@arrl.net)
running Linux Mandrake 6.1 and/or BeOS.
Mark Garvin
>Regarding this cap + resistor in series idea; Does the order matter (cap
>> resistor or resistor > cap)?
Nope, doesn't matter what order. You could just unsolder either end
of the cap that's already in there and insert the resistor. If you're
not sure of a good value, you could try bringing two wires out and
temporarily hooking up a pot. That would allow you to approximate a
good value and then solder in a resistor. (Again, there's no single
'correct' value. It's personal preference.)
Re the internal preamp: Richard Stern's comment is correct. A preamp
hooked close to the jack should overcome any capacitive effects from
the cable. Except, of course, if the preamp had a very large output
impedance. That would be unusual, so maybe it was an intentional
feature.
Preamps' rep as 'sterile' arises from the fact that they can almost
completely eliminate capacitive loading effects. Even with the cap
bypass on the volume control or with volume up full, there is still
some loading, and that has become an integral part of the sound of
electric guitar. Fast, accurate preamps portray the top end very
clearly. Almost an 'acoustic' tone.
MG
>--
Joey Goldstein
> resistor or resistor > cap)?
Mark Garvin wrote:
leo...@home.com
>a. The taper of the volume pot gets screwed up such that the extremely
>low volume pot settings are still quite loud.
The cap and resistor are bypassing the pot's normal function of
cutting the volume. The upper section of the pot tries to get larger
but the cap and resistor set a max.
>b. The fidelity at low volume settings is still slightly compromised
>compared to when the pot is wide open.
This is probably due to the fact that the cap is short-circuiting the
pickups to ground when the pot is turned down - the Z match of the
pickups is compromised.
I would suggest putting a resistor in series with the cap to prevent
this. You will need a larger cap as you put in a larger resistor.
Maybe you should make a spread-sheet of the parameters!!
Your best bet is to use a dual pot in a constant Z configuration, with
the cap inbetween somehow. This is a challenging problem!
>1. Have any of you ever used different values of resistor or capacitor
>in a circuit like this that gives better results?
>2. Does anyone know of another way to accomplish the desired result?
>(I.e. The same tone at any volume.)
>
>Note: I use the typical value audio taper volume pots for single coils
>and for humbuckers (250k for SC 500k for HB). Some of my guitars have a
>mixture of SS and HB pickups. On these guitars I use 500k pots.
>
Joey Goldstein
alann wrote:
>
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
> >
> > How does the conversion between micro farads and pico farads work?
> >
> > How many pico farads equals .001 micro farads?
> >
> > How many pico fards equals .02mf?
> >
>
> Just study the metric system.
> It's the same thing.
> Any metric tutorial ( including grade school )
> should explain the prefixes..
Thanks for all your help.
> a milli (whatever ) = a 1/1000 of a (whatever )..
>
> Same thing.
>
> GL
> Alan
>
> ( who's own opinion the U.S. should have converted like Jimmy Carter proposed in the 70's
> ).
>
> This damn "english" system is plain stupid!
>
> --
> ======================================
> al...@roava.net (km...@arrl.net)
> running Linux Mandrake 6.1 and/or BeOS.
--
Joey Goldstein
Mark Garvin wrote:
>
> In <384C5620...@nowhere.net> Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> writes:
> >Regarding this cap + resistor in series idea; Does the order matter (cap
> >> resistor or resistor > cap)?
>
> Nope, doesn't matter what order.
Well I've tried this now with several values of resistor (150k, 100k and
75k) and several values of capacitor (100pf, 300pf, 500pf and 680pf).
When the resistor is in series, yes the taper on the volume pot is
normal but the effect of the resistor is lost. It sounds just as thin or
thinner as when there is no resistor at all.
I think I'm going to try a 100pf cap + a 100k resistor (in parallel) for
a while. This is pretty similar to what I had before (1000pf + 150k)
only less extreme.
I think that many of you who suggested using a cap only (with values
from 100pf to 1000pf) are after an effect where you get more highs than
normal when you turn down the volume. I am after the same sound at all
volumes. The resistor seems crucial for this.
I may try an even smaller value of cap in the near future.
Thanks to all who contributed. Any further info appreciated.
Chris Smart
So, does anybody currently make a little box to plug into the guitar's
output jack? I assume such a box needs a nine-volt battery?
If not, I am not sufficiently skilled to build my own unit, but would pay
someone for parts/labor to put something together for me.
thanks,
Chris
ch...@uoguelph.ca
Joey Goldstein
(nos...@nowhere.net) wrote:
: Hi
: For several years now I've been using a mod on all my guitars that was
: suggested in Donald Brosnac's Book - Guitar Electronics For Musicians;
: whereby I solder a .001 mf capacitor plus a 150k ohm resister across the
: input and the output lugs of my master volume pot. I've even got a
: switch that allows me to A/B between the cap/resistor and no
: cap/resistor settings.
: The cap makes it so that less highs are rolled off to ground when the
: volume pot is lowered. This is a trick that Fender used to use on
: Telecasters. The cap by itself results in a very thin trebly sound at
: lower volumes. The resistor makes it so that less bottom end is rolled
: off at lower volumes too so the result is pretty close to the pot being
: wide open even at lower volume settings. Supposedly Shecter used to use
: the cap and the resistor together on some of their guitars.
: This works pretty well except that:
: a. The taper of the volume pot gets screwed up such that the extremely
: low volume pot settings are still quite loud.
: b. The fidelity at low volume settings is still slightly compromised
: compared to when the pot is wide open.
: 1. Have any of you ever used different values of resistor or capacitor
: in a circuit like this that gives better results?
: 2. Does anyone know of another way to accomplish the desired result?
: (I.e. The same tone at any volume.)
: Note: I use the typical value audio taper volume pots for single coils
: and for humbuckers (250k for SC 500k for HB). Some of my guitars have a
: mixture of SS and HB pickups. On these guitars I use 500k pots.
: --
: Regards:
: Joey Goldstein
: Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
: Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
: Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
--
____________________________________________________________
http://www.braille.uwo.ca/~chriss
"Laughter is the only tenable attitude in a universe which is a joke played
upon itself"(Peter J. Carroll).
Mark Garvin
>Well I've tried this now with several values of resistor (150k, 100k and
>75k) and several values of capacitor (100pf, 300pf, 500pf and 680pf).
>When the resistor is in series, yes the taper on the volume pot is
>normal but the effect of the resistor is lost. It sounds just as thin or
>thinner as when there is no resistor at all.
Use a higher value resistor then, Joey. The resistor will subdue
the treble boost effect, so at some point you should reach a place
where the treble is not boosted too much. The value also depends
on the pot value. If you are using 500k, then try scaling up.
The other factor regarding 'thin' tone: This may sound counter-
intuitive, but try a *higher* value cap. In other words, maybe a
.001. This will extend the range of boosted frequencies into the
richer sounding high mids, so you won't be boosting just the extreme
edgy top. Then use a high enough value series resistor to make sure
that the broader-range boost is subdued.
Graphically, it will be the difference btw these:
/
/
/ Small cap w no series resistor =
/ larger boost, esp at extreme highs
-------------------/
Bass Mid Treble
-------------- Larger cap WITH series resistor =
/ less overall boost
----------/ onset of boost within richer mid band
>I think I'm going to try a 100pf cap + a 100k resistor (in parallel) for
>a while. This is pretty similar to what I had before (1000pf + 150k)
>only less extreme.
You'll find a big difference between the 100pf and 1000pf.
>I think that many of you who suggested using a cap only (with values
>from 100pf to 1000pf) are after an effect where you get more highs than
>normal when you turn down the volume.
That's why I related this to the Fender amp 'bright switch'.
At *lower* volume settings, the bright switch sounds piercing
because very high treble frequencies are not attenuated by the
volume control.
MG
William J Chapman
>
>
>Mark Garvin wrote:
>>
>> In <384C5620...@nowhere.net> Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> writes:
>> >Regarding this cap + resistor in series idea; Does the order matter (cap
>> >> resistor or resistor > cap)?
>>
>> Nope, doesn't matter what order.
>
>Well I've tried this now with several values of resistor (150k, 100k and
>75k) and several values of capacitor (100pf, 300pf, 500pf and 680pf).
>When the resistor is in series, yes the taper on the volume pot is
>normal but the effect of the resistor is lost. It sounds just as thin or
>thinner as when there is no resistor at all.
>
>I think I'm going to try a 100pf cap + a 100k resistor (in parallel) for
>a while. This is pretty similar to what I had before (1000pf + 150k)
>only less extreme.
>
>I think that many of you who suggested using a cap only (with values
>from 100pf to 1000pf) are after an effect where you get more highs than
>normal when you turn down the volume. I am after the same sound at all
>volumes. The resistor seems crucial for this.
>
>I may try an even smaller value of cap in the near future.
>
>Thanks to all who contributed. Any further info appreciated.
>
>--
>Regards:
>Joey Goldstein
>Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
>Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
>Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
If you use the right value cap [smaller than .001mf] as I suggested
your tone will not get brighter as you roll down the vol pot. I've
done a great deal of experimenting with this. Look inside a PRS. BC
Joey Goldstein
William J Chapman wrote:
>
> If you use the right value cap [smaller than .001mf] as I suggested
> your tone will not get brighter as you roll down the vol pot. I've
> done a great deal of experimenting with this. Look inside a PRS. BC
Hi William
It was because of your original post that I went out and bought a range
of caps from 100pf thru 680pf. All of these caps including the 100pf
cap, if used without a resistor in parallel, add too much treble when
the volume control is reduced. The effect is increase the more the
volume is rolled off.
Joey Goldstein
Mark Garvin wrote:
>
> In <384C77BD...@nowhere.net> Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> writes:
>
> >Well I've tried this now with several values of resistor (150k, 100k and
> >75k) and several values of capacitor (100pf, 300pf, 500pf and 680pf).
> >When the resistor is in series, yes the taper on the volume pot is
> >normal but the effect of the resistor is lost. It sounds just as thin or
> >thinner as when there is no resistor at all.
>
> Use a higher value resistor then, Joey. The resistor will subdue
> the treble boost effect, so at some point you should reach a place
> where the treble is not boosted too much. The value also depends
> on the pot value. If you are using 500k, then try scaling up.
How far up?
I am not using anything exotic here, btw. I'm using a 2 Duncan '59s
(neck and bridge) with a 3 way switch, master volume (500k) and a master
tone (500k). What values of cap + resistor in series do you suppose
should work?
When you say "in series" you mean wiring one end of the cap to one end
of the resistor and the remaining end of the cap to a lug on the volume
pot as well as the remaining end of the resistor to the other lug, don't you?
> The other factor regarding 'thin' tone: This may sound counter-
> intuitive, but try a *higher* value cap. In other words, maybe a
> .001. This will extend the range of boosted frequencies into the
> richer sounding high mids, so you won't be boosting just the extreme
> edgy top. Then use a high enough value series resistor to make sure
> that the broader-range boost is subdued.
>
> Graphically, it will be the difference btw these:
>
> /
> /
> / Small cap w no series resistor =
> / larger boost, esp at extreme highs
> -------------------/
>
> Bass Mid Treble
>
> -------------- Larger cap WITH series resistor =
> / less overall boost
> ----------/ onset of boost within richer mid band
>
> >I think I'm going to try a 100pf cap + a 100k resistor (in parallel) for
> >a while. This is pretty similar to what I had before (1000pf + 150k)
> >only less extreme.
>
> You'll find a big difference between the 100pf and 1000pf.
>
> >I think that many of you who suggested using a cap only (with values
> >from 100pf to 1000pf) are after an effect where you get more highs than
> >normal when you turn down the volume.
>
> That's why I related this to the Fender amp 'bright switch'.
> At *lower* volume settings, the bright switch sounds piercing
> because very high treble frequencies are not attenuated by the
> volume control.
>
> MG
--
Tonefactor
>
.001 micro farad is equal to 1 nano farad or 1000 pico farads.
> How many pico fards equals .02mf?
>
.02 milli farads equals 20,000,000 pico farads.
Mark Garvin
>> >Well I've tried this now with several values of resistor (150k, 100k and
>> >75k) and several values of capacitor (100pf, 300pf, 500pf and 680pf).
>> >When the resistor is in series, yes the taper on the volume pot is
>> >normal but the effect of the resistor is lost. It sounds just as thin or
>> >thinner as when there is no resistor at all.
>Mark Garvin wrote:
>> Use a higher value resistor then, Joey. The resistor will subdue
>> the treble boost effect, so at some point you should reach a place
>> where the treble is not boosted too much. The value also depends
>> on the pot value. If you are using 500k, then try scaling up.
In <384D23F1...@nowhere.net> Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> writes:
>How far up?
>I am not using anything exotic here, btw. I'm using a 2 Duncan '59s
>(neck and bridge) with a 3 way switch, master volume (500k) and a master
>tone (500k). What values of cap + resistor in series do you suppose
>should work?
>When you say "in series" you mean wiring one end of the cap to one end
>of the resistor and the remaining end of the cap to a lug on the volume
>pot as well as the remaining end of the resistor to the other lug, don't you?
Like so:
cap res
|-------------+---||--////--|
( / |
( /<------------+------
( /
| |
--- ---
- -
Pickup vol
Is this what you have?
It's tough to tell what you're hearing, and I'm surprised that
you are still getting too much treble boost (presuming that you
have wired your circuit as above, and used values like 100pf/150k.)
If you have the circuit wired correctly, and if you are still getting
too much treble boost, then I'll take a guess: Try 300pf with 220k or
even 270k. Raising the resistor value will diminish the effect of the
bypass cap, and above a certain point, you won't be getting much
effect from it.
Have you tried temporarily bringing the wires out to an external pot?
That will also allow you to see exactly what you're getting from the
circuit.
MG
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joey Goldstein
As far as I can understand ascii circuit diagrams, yes. My English
description is more exact <g>.
> It's tough to tell what you're hearing, and I'm surprised that
> you are still getting too much treble boost (presuming that you
> have wired your circuit as above, and used values like 100pf/150k.)
I wouldn't say that I'm getting any more or less treble boost when I use
the resistor in series. The amount of boost seems about the same as when
I don't use a resistor at all or when I use a resistor in parallel.
However, when I use the resistor in parallel there is a marked
difference in the "fidelity" of the signal as I lower the volume pot,
namely that the bottom end does not drop out as much. When I use the
resistor in series it appears to have no effect at all.
Recap: Using a 100pf alone boosts the highs as I turn down my volume
control but the bottom end gets lost as well. Using a resistor in
parallel (I've tried 75k, 100k and 150k - they all seem to work) the
loss of bottom end is minimised but the taper of the volume pot gets
screwed up.
Using my original value of .001mf as above the increased highs are way
too extreme.
> If you have the circuit wired correctly, and if you are still getting
> too much treble boost, then I'll take a guess: Try 300pf with 220k or
> even 270k. Raising the resistor value will diminish the effect of the
> bypass cap, and above a certain point, you won't be getting much
> effect from it.
I just bought some more caps and resistors so I'll try these suggestions
and get back to you.
Joey Goldstein
Richard Stern wrote:
>
> In rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> : (I.e. The same tone at any volume.)
>
> I wrote:
> :> Use a buffer/preamp.
>
> : Really?
>
> : I've used buffer/preamps before but for the purpose of trying to avoid
> : capacitance thru long cables and FX chains. I never noticed that they
> : ever made the volume pot on my guitar any more efficient though.
>
> If you plugged a cable from your guitar to the buffer, you aren't
> really accomplishing anything. It's the capacitance of the cable that's
> causing the problem.
>
> : There was a little buffer/preamp made by a company called PAX that
> : plugged right into the guitar's output jack. It worked well but sounded
> : too sterile. It did nothing for my volume pot though.
>
> Should have worked, if it was designed right. The box I made does sound
> a bit sterile, but you get NO treble roll-off when adjusting the volume
> pot on the guitar.
Right you are. I just messed around with a real short cable and an MXR
Micro Amp and it sounds pretty good. Guess I forgot. I used to mess
around with this stuff a lot. I sort of gave up on these things a few
years ago. Don't know if I'd want to strap one on my belt buckle or wire
one into my guitar because it's too heavy.
Also had a look around my house and found my old AXE Buffer/Preamp. It
plugs right into the guitar's output jack but doesn't sound nearly as
good as the MicroAmp.
Did a little research and found out that EMG (www.emginc.com) make a
little buffer/preamp (PA-2). It's housed within a mini toggle switch and
uses a 9 volt battery. Looks promising. Anyone out there ever use one of these?
> : What makes your buffer/preamp better for this purpose?
> : Does it also take care of the capacitance problem?
> : I've been looking for a really good transparent buffer.
>
> You'd have to build one, and see if you like the sound. Yes, it's a
> bit sterile and hi-fi like, but that's because you're eliminating the
> treble roll-off.
>
> Richard Stern
--
Gary Watts
: Did a little research and found out that EMG (www.emginc.com) make a
: little buffer/preamp (PA-2). It's housed within a mini toggle switch and
: uses a 9 volt battery. Looks promising. Anyone out there ever use one of these?
Nothing amazing really...I bought one and put it in my Strat. I didn't
check the opamp # but it was moderately noisey. I have an old Zeus 8444
preamp and it was quieter. It's opamp is pre 5532 or TL841. The nice
thing about the EMG is it's real small. I wanted it for a solo boost
into the amp and it will do that, albeit with some hiss.
Gary
Joey Goldstein
Thanks for the info Gary.
Is it noisy when it's just being used as a buffer, ie. no boost?
Is the buffer really transparent and natural sounding or does it
noticeably color the sound?
Is the Zeus 8444 a similar type of device? Mounts on the guitar? Is
there a URL that has some info on the Zeus?
Mark Garvin
>Joey Goldstein (nos...@nowhere.net) wrote:
>: Did a little research and found out that EMG (www.emginc.com) make a
>: little buffer/preamp (PA-2). It's housed within a mini toggle switch and
>: uses a 9 volt battery. Looks promising. Anyone out there ever use one of these?
In <82m098$2k1$1...@hpcvnews.cv.hp.com> gwa...@cv.hp.com (Gary Watts) writes:
>Nothing amazing really...I bought one and put it in my Strat. I didn't
>check the opamp # but it was moderately noisey. I have an old Zeus 8444
>preamp and it was quieter. It's opamp is pre 5532 or TL841. The nice
>thing about the EMG is it's real small. I wanted it for a solo boost
>into the amp and it will do that, albeit with some hiss.
There's the old tradeoff between noise/power/slew rate. Of course
most older opamps offer the worst of all worlds.
The 5532 series is quiet, with good slew rate, but power-hungry for
an on-board preamp. If you can keep feeding it batteries, it will
sound good, but it may be overkill for guitar apps anyway. Likewise
with newer 2604's or 2132's (I've been using both in rack-mount
designs and they sound good).
TL0-series has been around for a while, but they are still pretty
good in general, IMO. Fairly quiet and musical-sounding, and the
various models in the series allow you to balance the power vs slew
rate.
I've been experimenting with some Texas Instrument CMOS opamps for
use in on-board guitar preamps. Ended up with a TLC2202 in one of
my protos (or is it 2022? I keep getting those reversed). There
was another in the series that looked interesting... TLC2272 if
memory serves. The last '2' means dual, so the 2201 would be the
single version. Those are all in the TI databooks, and TI is pretty
good about sending out design samples.
The added benefit of CMOS opamps is that the output voltage can
swing rail-to-rail, making use of available voltage in battery-
powered apps.
Dan Haney can probably recommend a few other opamps, as he has
experimented with them quite a bit (tho' I believe he likes to
use higher power versions that go thru batteries quickly).
Guitar pickups put out a reasonable amount of voltage, so a half-
decent noise spec should do it. Pickups' reactive nature requires
fairly high input impedance, but FETs are not really necessary. So
in general, I'd look at slew rate requirement and try to pick the
device with lowest power-consumption within that range.
Anyway, anyone who wants to experiment could look for a 'generic'
preamp design, but make sure it has low-noise resistors and a socket
for the opamp. Then just plug in a few different types to see what
works. Even Radio Shack probably has TL0-series opamps that can be
swapped in. There are subtle differences.
MGarvin
Dale VanZile
I have a great mod for the single volume/single tone setup that addresses the
rolloff issue and lets you set the amount of boost:
Wire the volume pot normally, i.e., hot from pickup switch to one end, ground to the
other, output from the middle. The tone control's middle lug hooks to the volume's
middle lug, a 500pF (or so--flavor to taste) cap goes from the volume's hot to the
one end of the tone control, and the normal tone cap goes from the other end to
ground. It's quite a bit like the volume-tone setup from a tweed Deluxe, actually,
and it lets you use the tone control to adjust the amount of high-boost when the
volume's down. I did this in my guitar, and it sounds balanced almost all the way
down the volume control's range when the tone's set to about 8. YMMV if you have a
linear taper pot for your tone.... Works well for Les Pauls, too--just wire up two
sets.... I have the special "Lone Star" 4-section lever switch on my Strat, and I
set it up to work like this, with the switch selecting the tone pots as well as
pickups....
Hope this helps!
C ya,
Dutch
Joey Goldstein wrote:
> Mark Garvin wrote:
> >
> > In <384C77BD...@nowhere.net> Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> writes:
> >
> > >Well I've tried this now with several values of resistor (150k, 100k and
> > >75k) and several values of capacitor (100pf, 300pf, 500pf and 680pf).
> > >When the resistor is in series, yes the taper on the volume pot is
> > >normal but the effect of the resistor is lost. It sounds just as thin or
> > >thinner as when there is no resistor at all.
> >
> > Use a higher value resistor then, Joey. The resistor will subdue
> > the treble boost effect, so at some point you should reach a place
> > where the treble is not boosted too much. The value also depends
> > on the pot value. If you are using 500k, then try scaling up.
>
> How far up?
>
> I am not using anything exotic here, btw. I'm using a 2 Duncan '59s
> (neck and bridge) with a 3 way switch, master volume (500k) and a master
> tone (500k). What values of cap + resistor in series do you suppose
> should work?
>
> When you say "in series" you mean wiring one end of the cap to one end
> of the resistor and the remaining end of the cap to a lug on the volume
> pot as well as the remaining end of the resistor to the other lug, don't you?
>
Dale VanZile
Or, how about a dual pot with one side wired like a normal volume control, and
the other in series with the cap, acting as a variable series resistance (hook
the cap from one side's hot lug to the other's, and hook both wipers together,
but only ground the side wired as a normal volume control). That would decrease
the amount of the treble boost as you roll off more volume, and should give a
more balanced tone all the way down. Then it's just a matter of picking the cap
that gives the boost you like....
C ya,
Dutch
Mark Garvin
>Joey--
>I have a great mod for the single volume/single tone setup that addresses the
>rolloff issue and lets you set the amount of boost:
> Wire the volume pot normally, i.e., hot from pickup switch to one
> end, ground to the other, output from the middle. The tone control's
> middle lug hooks to the volume's middle lug, a 500pF or so--flavor
> to taste) cap goes from the volume's hot to the one end of the tone
> control, and the normal tone cap goes from the other end to ground.
> It's quite a bit like the volume-tone setup from a tweed Deluxe,
> actually, and it lets you use the tone control to adjust the amount
> of high-boost when the volume's down. I did this in my guitar, and
> it sounds balanced almost all the way down the volume control's range
> when the tone's set to about 8. YMMV if you have a linear taper pot
> for your tone.... Works well for Les Pauls, too--just wire up two
> sets.... I have the special "Lone Star" 4-section lever switch on my
> Strat, and I set it up to work like this, with the switch selecting
> the tone pots as well as pickups....
>Dutch
Great idea, Dutch! (Nice to see you! I haven't been around aga much.
This is xposted to rmmg)
In case it wasn't clear from the description, I'll try a diagram.
If it doesn't look right, set your browser for fixed pitch fonts.
500p tone tone_cap
|---------+--||---/////----||----
( | ^ |
( pickup / | |
( /<--------+-----------+----------> output
( / volume
| |
--- ---
- -
OR a possible variation:
tone_cap
|------||----
/ |
|---------+-------->/ tone ---
| | / -
| | |
| | --- 500p
( | ---
( pickup / |
( /<--------+----------------------> output
( / volume
| |
--- ---
- -
A couple words on Dutch's circuit, since I've snipped the extra text:
Like the Fender bright switch, the 500p cap above (season to taste)
will only boost high frequencies when the volume control is turned
down a bit. Ordinarily, highs are rolled off when the guitar's vol
control is turned down, due to the inline resistance working against
cable capacitance, etc. The normal cap bypass around the top two
lugs of the volume control will help overcome this loss, but will
often overcompensate, creating too much boost.
The customary solution (well, mine anyway) is to put a resistor
in series with the bypass cap. The value usually must be determined
empirically, since there are too many unknowns (type and capacitance
of cable, type of pickups, values of controls, etc). Dutch's circuit
allows the tone control itself to operate as that series resistance,
so it's adjustable.
Good insight. Thanks, Dutch!
MG
Joey Goldstein
diagram too well. It's a wonder that I can wire my guitars at all.
You're saying that everything gets wired normally except that a 500pf
cap is added between the volume pot's non center wiper and the tone
pot's unused non center wiper. Right?
Volume pot
lug 1 ... wired to ground
lug 2 ... (center) wired to output jack hot as well as tone control's
center lug (lug 2)
lug 3 ... wired to selector switch as well as to a 500pf cap which is
wired to the tone control's lug 3
Tone pot
lug 1 ... wired to ground and a .02mf cap
lug 2 (center) ... wired to volume pot's center lug
lug 3 ... wired to volume pot's lug 3 with a 500pf cap in between
The tone pot can then be used to limit the amount of treble that the cap
is boosting?
Yes? No?
If yes, will this not also change the _sound_ at different positions of
the tone control?
Will it not in effect change the taper of the tone contol?
Will it prevent me from getting the dark jazz sound I use all the time
with the tone control rolled of about 80% of the way?
--
Mark Garvin
>OK guys correct me if I'm wrong here. I can't really read a circuit
>diagram too well. It's a wonder that I can wire my guitars at all.
<g> It's harder for me to read the descriptions.
>You're saying that everything gets wired normally except that a 500pf
>cap is added between the volume pot's non center wiper and the tone
>pot's unused non center wiper. Right?
Well, it depends on how your tone control is wired at present. Best
idea is to see if you can make sense of the schematics, crude ASCII
that they may be.
>Volume pot
>lug 1 ... wired to ground
>lug 2 ... (center) wired to output jack hot as well as tone control's
> center lug (lug 2)
>lug 3 ... wired to selector switch as well as to a 500pf cap which is
> wired to the tone control's lug 3
Sounds good so far.
>Tone pot
>lug 1 ... wired to ground and a .02mf cap
That would be "wired to ground *THROUGH* a .02uf".
>lug 2 (center) ... wired to volume pot's center lug
>lug 3 ... wired to volume pot's lug 3 with a 500pf cap in between
Sounds right, but still...see if you can trace the circuit and
compare with the schematic. I included the second version of
the schematic cause I thought your guitar may be closer to that
(one 'end lug' of both volume and tone wired to the pickup/selector)
>The tone pot can then be used to limit the amount of treble that the cap
>is boosting?
>
>Yes? No?
Yes! Turning down the tone control puts some resistance in series
with the bypass cap and reduces its effect.
>If yes, will this not also change the _sound_ at different positions
>of the tone control?
You were going to put the bypass cap in anyway, right? Dutch's
circuit will allow you to turn the tone control down a notch if the
bypass cap adds too much treble.
>Will it not in effect change the taper of the tone contol?
Shouldn't. IOW, you should have the advantages of the bypass
cap, but you should be able to subdue its effect when you want.
>Will it prevent me from getting the dark jazz sound I use all the time
>with the tone control rolled of about 80% of the way?
The bypass cap's effect will be considerably subdued when you back
down the tone pot. This is the whole advantage of that circuit.
Ordinarily the bypass cap would be boosting treble all the time.
It should sound good.
I am curious about something tho'. If you roll off the treble
so much, why do you want that bypass cap to begin with?
MGarvin
Joey Goldstein
Mark Garvin wrote:
>
> In <3855D390...@nowhere.net> Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> writes:
>
> >OK guys correct me if I'm wrong here. I can't really read a circuit
> >diagram too well. It's a wonder that I can wire my guitars at all.
>
> <g> It's harder for me to read the descriptions.
>
> >You're saying that everything gets wired normally except that a 500pf
> >cap is added between the volume pot's non center wiper and the tone
> >pot's unused non center wiper. Right?
>
> Well, it depends on how your tone control is wired at present. Best
> idea is to see if you can make sense of the schematics, crude ASCII
> that they may be.
>
> >Volume pot
> >lug 1 ... wired to ground
> >lug 2 ... (center) wired to output jack hot as well as tone control's
> > center lug (lug 2)
> >lug 3 ... wired to selector switch as well as to a 500pf cap which is
> > wired to the tone control's lug 3
>
> Sounds good so far.
>
> >Tone pot
> >lug 1 ... wired to ground and a .02mf cap
>
> That would be "wired to ground *THROUGH* a .02uf".
Yes.
> >lug 2 (center) ... wired to volume pot's center lug
> >lug 3 ... wired to volume pot's lug 3 with a 500pf cap in between
>
> Sounds right, but still...see if you can trace the circuit and
> compare with the schematic. I included the second version of
> the schematic cause I thought your guitar may be closer to that
> (one 'end lug' of both volume and tone wired to the pickup/selector)
I either have the tone pot wired to the selector switch out or the
volume pot's lug 2 or lug 3 depending on the space restrictions and
other doo dads. Two of my guitars have pretty elaborate (and messy)
wiring shemes. Same difference isn't it?
> >The tone pot can then be used to limit the amount of treble that the cap
> >is boosting?
> >
> >Yes? No?
>
> Yes! Turning down the tone control puts some resistance in series
> with the bypass cap and reduces its effect.
>
> >If yes, will this not also change the _sound_ at different positions
> >of the tone control?
>
> You were going to put the bypass cap in anyway, right? Dutch's
> circuit will allow you to turn the tone control down a notch if the
> bypass cap adds too much treble.
Will it change the sound of my tone control?
When I play jazz the tone control is a very important component in the sound.
> >Will it not in effect change the taper of the tone contol?
>
> Shouldn't. IOW, you should have the advantages of the bypass
> cap, but you should be able to subdue its effect when you want.
>
> >Will it prevent me from getting the dark jazz sound I use all the time
> >with the tone control rolled of about 80% of the way?
>
> The bypass cap's effect will be considerably subdued when you back
> down the tone pot.
Considerably? or completely?
When the tone pot is at -80% will the bypass cap still have some effect?
> This is the whole advantage of that circuit.
> Ordinarily the bypass cap would be boosting treble all the time.
> It should sound good.
>
> I am curious about something tho'. If you roll off the treble
> so much, why do you want that bypass cap to begin with?
I don't want a circuit that changes the sound as a I lower my volume
pot. I want a circuit that _does not_ change my sound as I lower my
volume pot. That is why all of these suggestions that actually boost the
highs as the volume pot is lowered are unsatisfactory.
However, I don't play jazz all the time. I usually play a MesaBoogie amp
with a volume pedal in the FX loop. Most of the time my volume pot is
wide open and I control the volume with the pedal. When using an
overdriven sound though, it is nice to be able to back off on the volume
pot so that I am driving the preamp less hard and thereby clean up my
sound a bit. Because lowering the volume pot causes the highs to drop
out this is much less controlable.
JoeArthur
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:38569203...@nowhere.net...
>
>
> > I am curious about something tho'. If you roll off the treble
> > so much, why do you want that bypass cap to begin with?
>
> I don't want a circuit that changes the sound as a I lower my volume
> pot. I want a circuit that _does not_ change my sound as I lower my
> volume pot. That is why all of these suggestions that actually boost the
> highs as the volume pot is lowered are unsatisfactory.
>
> However, I don't play jazz all the time. I usually play a MesaBoogie amp
> with a volume pedal in the FX loop. Most of the time my volume pot is
> wide open and I control the volume with the pedal. When using an
> overdriven sound though, it is nice to be able to back off on the volume
> pot so that I am driving the preamp less hard and thereby clean up my
> sound a bit. Because lowering the volume pot causes the highs to drop
> out this is much less controlable.
>
The bypass cap suggestion to boost highs as the volume pot is lowered is an
attempt to counter compensate for the normal loss of highs. If the bypass
cap is sized correctly, then it is possible to get what you are after, for
most of the volume control range. Proper size however, is another thing...
depends on your amp input impedance, length of cord, pickups, a lot of
variables.
The normal high input impedance of the amp, and cord capacitance is the
primary culprit that removes highs as the guitar volume control is turned
down. Another option (although more involved) is to build into your guitar,
an active battery powered buffer stage that will isolate the guitar volume
control from the interconnecting cord and the amplifier input stage. This
will provide a lower but consistent guitar output impedance.
There are many circuits... either single FET, transistor, or even op amp
based that can provide the buffering action. Ampage is a good place to look
for DIY type circuits, or you can purchase a ready made in-guitar preamp.
Joey Goldstein
JoeArthur wrote:
> Another option (although more involved) is to build into your guitar,
> an active battery powered buffer stage that will isolate the guitar volume
> control from the interconnecting cord and the amplifier input stage.
Yes. Thanks. this has been mentioned before. I'm going to buy me an EMG
PA-2 buffer/preamp real soon. I think a good buffer is probably what I
really need.
Les Cargill
>
> newbie question from a non-newbie:
>
> What does a buffer do in an analog system?
For voltage-swing interconnections, like
solid state stuff, it lowers the effective
output impedance. It adds current, in other
words.
For guitar pickups, it also lowers the effective output impedance
of the load, adding current. This changes the characteristics of
the target load impedance so voltage drop things like capacitance
have less effect.
Dunno how you buffer a tube-stage output. Probably with another
tube stage only bigger or higher voltage.
>
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> > Yes. Thanks. this has been mentioned before. I'm going to buy me an EMG
> > PA-2 buffer/preamp real soon. I think a good buffer is probably what I
> > really need.
> >
> > --
> > Regards:
> > Joey Goldstein
> > Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
> > Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
> > Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
>
> --
> Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://www.bestweb.net/wyee
> Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
> Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band http://www.bigbluebigband.com
>
> Remove "DONTSPAM" from return address to reply.
--
Les Cargill - lcar...@worldnet.att.net
Charlie Escher
> Willie K. Yee, M.D. wrote:
> >
> > newbie question from a non-newbie:
> >
> > What does a buffer do in an analog system?
>
> For voltage-swing interconnections, like
> solid state stuff, it lowers the effective
> output impedance. It adds current, in other
> words.
>
> For guitar pickups, it also lowers the effective output impedance
> of the load, adding current. This changes the characteristics of
> the target load impedance so voltage drop things like capacitance
> have less effect.
>
> Dunno how you buffer a tube-stage output. Probably with another
> tube stage only bigger or higher voltage.
There are two classic approaches: a cathode follower circuit (which often does
involve higher voltages than the preceeding gain stages), which has high input
impedance and low output impedance, or transformer coupling.
--Charlie E.
Polfus
>From: Joey Goldstein
>I usually play a MesaBoogie amp with a volume pedal in the FX loop.
Ahhhh...thats good reading right there, folks.
>Most of the time my volume pot is wide open and I control the volume with the
pedal. When using an overdriven sound though, it is nice to be able to back off
on the volume pot so that I am driving the preamp less hard and thereby clean
up my sound a bit. Because lowering the volume pot causes the highs to drop out
this is much less controlable.>
Yup..well said.
Peace,
Polfus
http://www.geocities.com/polfus_2000
Willie K. Yee, M.D.
What does a buffer do in an analog system?
Joey Goldstein wrote:
> Yes. Thanks. this has been mentioned before. I'm going to buy me an EMG
> PA-2 buffer/preamp real soon. I think a good buffer is probably what I
> really need.
>
> --
> Regards:
> Joey Goldstein
> Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
> Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
> Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
--
Joey Goldstein
"Willie K. Yee, M.D." wrote:
>
> newbie question from a non-newbie:
>
> What does a buffer do in an analog system?
It reduces capacitance so that long cables or the extra resistance
imposed on a circuit by something like a volume pot does not alter the
integrity of the audio signal as much.
It also changes the impedance of an electric guitar (from hi to low, I think).
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> > Yes. Thanks. this has been mentioned before. I'm going to buy me an EMG
> > PA-2 buffer/preamp real soon. I think a good buffer is probably what I
> > really need.
> >
> > --
> > Regards:
> > Joey Goldstein
> > Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
> > Home Page: http://webhome.idirect.com/~joegold
> > Email: <joegold AT idirect DOT com>
>
> --
> Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://www.bestweb.net/wyee
> Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry http://www.pkc.com
> Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band http://www.bigbluebigband.com
>
> Remove "DONTSPAM" from return address to reply.
--
John Huff
>>I usually play a MesaBoogie amp with a volume pedal in the FX loop.
>
>
with the
>pedal. When using an overdriven sound though, it is nice to be able to
back off
>on the volume pot so that I am driving the preamp less hard and
thereby clean
>up my sound a bit. Because lowering the volume pot causes the highs to
drop out
>this is much less controlable.>
A capacitor across the volume pot can help this;stewmac.com has info on
this under the 'wiring 101' section.
A very cheap part and 5-10 min total will get that pot working the way
you want, or at least alot closer.
I like the high cut myself, so I can;t speak for what value cap works
best.
Daniel
Mark Garvin
>What does a buffer do in an analog system?
Tough to explain in non-tech terms, Willie, but I'll give it a try.
Electrons travel in 'loops'. Everyone can picture how a flashlight
works. The loop is simply a battery and bulb in a kind of a loop.
Electrons go round and round, etc.
Here's the loop in the guitar circuit:
resistance from vol control
---------------/////------------------------------->
| |
( |
( Pickup |
( --- capacitance of guitar cable
( ---
| |
--------------------------------------------------- gnd
The 'square' at the left forms the first loop. Voltage from
the pickup travels around it, traveling thru the volume control
IF THE CONTROL IS TURNED DOWN. This is symbolized as a series
resistance --/////-- above. (If the vol control is all the way
up, the series resistance is zero.)
The other symbol is a capacitor, symbolizing the cable
capacitance. Capacitance, by nature, allows high frequencies
(treble) to pass thru, but blocks lows. In this case, the
highs get passed thru to ground, so the signal loses treble.
This becomes extreme when the vol control is turned down
part way. The series resistance of the control and the
cable's capacitance conspire to filter off more highs than
normal. Essentially, the control resistance sorta 'forces'
some of the highs thru the capacitor (the cable capacitance).
The higher the control's resistance, the more highs are lost
(and vice versa), so turning down the volume control tends
to roll off more highs.
To solve this, you could look for cable with ultra low capacitance,
but that only helps to a limited extent. The obvious solution is to
put something inline to make that effective 'series resistance'
as low as possible.
|\
| \
res - vol control | \
----/////----------| / --------------------->
| | / |
( |/ |
( Pickup |
( --- capacitance of guitar cable
( ---
| |
--------------------------------------------------- gnd
The clumsily-drawn triangle is a 'buffer', which is kind of
like an amplifier, except 'buffer' implies that it works more
for turning a high input impedance into a low output impedance.
Low output impedance is the key word: The old 'loop' with the
volume control is effectively isolated. The buffer's output
'drives' the cable. The output impedance of the buffer is so
low that very little high end is lost thru the cable capacitance.
The possible problem with this is that sometimes it is TOO
efficient. The sound can ALWAYS be brighter than normal, so
most rock guitarists don't use buffers. Bassists, who like
clear 'hifi' sound tend to like active electronics.
And that's all I'm gonna type for tonight. Let me know if any
of this was not clear, and I'll post a followup tomorrow.
MGarvin
Carlginger
>From: mga...@panix.com (Mark Garvin)
>Date: Wed, 15 December 1999 06:18 AM EST
>Message-id: <837tdl$14g$1...@panix2.panix.com>
>
>> "Willie K. Yee, M.D." <DONTSP...@bestweb.net> writes:
>>What does a buffer do in an analog system?
>
>Tough to explain in non-tech terms,
Please, people use buffers in the front of an effects chain to prevent signal
loss.
What more do you need to know?
Fucking diagrams!!!
What a dick. You prove my point with every post.
Willie K. Yee, M.D.
thingy. It is only the name that is confusing, because in the digital
domain, buffers are temporary storage devices to coordinate subsystems
of different carrying capacity.
Thanks for the explanation.
Mark Garvin wrote:
> > "Willie K. Yee, M.D." <DONTSP...@bestweb.net> writes:
> >What does a buffer do in an analog system?
>
> Tough to explain in non-tech terms, Willie, but I'll give it a try. .
> .
. . . impressive explanation omitted . . .
> And that's all I'm gonna type for tonight. Let me know if any
> of this was not clear, and I'll post a followup tomorrow.
>
> MGarvin
--
Ross M Stites
>So a buffer is just an impedance-changing amplifier or transformer-type
>thingy. It is only the name that is confusing, because in the digital
>domain, buffers are temporary storage devices to coordinate subsystems
>of different carrying capacity.
Actually buffers are used the same way in digital electronics circuits too.
They are used in every case to isolate one section of a circuit from another.
That's probably the easiest way to think of it because it's really the only
constant in the way that EE's use the word.
>Thanks for the explanation.
Mark knows his stuff. He's well worth listening to.
Ross
David Covell
Ross M Stites wrote in message ...
>"Willie K. Yee, M.D." <DONTSP...@bestweb.net> writes:
>
>>So a buffer is just an impedance-changing amplifier or transformer-type
>>thingy. It is only the name that is confusing, because in the digital
>>domain, buffers are temporary storage devices to coordinate subsystems
>>of different carrying capacity.
>
>Actually buffers are used the same way in digital electronics circuits too.
>They are used in every case to isolate one section of a circuit from
another.
>That's probably the easiest way to think of it because it's really the only
>constant in the way that EE's use the word.
>
Correct, and this usage agrees with the dictionary definition of "buffer".
>>Thanks for the explanation.
>
>Mark knows his stuff. He's well worth listening to.
Correct again; he's also worth listening to when he plays. Cccarl's just
jealous.
Carlginger
>
>Correct again; he's also worth listening to when he plays. Cccarl's just
>jealous.
>
>
I heard him. IMO, he's not worth a shit.
He's revered by most here, because most here....suck.
Not A Speck Of Cereal
>>From: mga...@panix.com (Mark Garvin)
>>
>>Tough to explain in non-tech terms,
>
Um... the poster asked *what* it does, not why. (we know you needed
help writing posts, but reading them too?)
>What more do you need to know?
>Fucking diagrams!!!
>What a dick. You prove my point with every post.
Heh, this is high-comedy. Carl proves his lack of comprehension with
nearly every post, in a newsgroup full of people whom he's admitted to
not giving a shit about, and he says this?
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!
Dan Stanley
Carlginger <carlg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991215172946...@ng-fe1.aol.com...
"Revered" is a little strong. He's a good guy, and good guitar player.
But really Carl if you want to prove you are "better", why not do it? You
can record something, just you into a boom box, send it to Dale, and Mark
can do the same. Let us decide.
I'll vote honestly and fairly, even though I think you are a loathsome toad,
and Mark is a decent human being.
I'd hope and advise everyone else to do the same.
Why not do it?
Dan
Les Cargill
>
> >Subject: Re: Preamp/buffers
> >From: mga...@panix.com (Mark Garvin)
> >Date: Wed, 15 December 1999 06:18 AM EST
> >Message-id: <837tdl$14g$1...@panix2.panix.com>
> >
> >>What does a buffer do in an analog system?
>
> >
> >Tough to explain in non-tech terms,
>
> Please, people use buffers in the front of an effects chain to prevent signal
> loss.
>
> Fucking diagrams!!!
> What a dick. You prove my point with every post.
>
>
Well why does it work, o ye of the scary gear knowlege? What does a buffer do?
The guy asked for a general answer to "what does a buffer do in an analog
circuit". Garvin answered beautifully.
Les Cargill
>
> thingy. It is only the name that is confusing, because in the digital
> domain, buffers are temporary storage devices to coordinate subsystems
> of different carrying capacity.
There are two connotations of the term "buffer" in digital
systems.
A buffer/line driver betters the odds of good transmission
of the digital signals. They're just small amplifiers.
A memory buffer allows an interrupting device to have a longer
duty cycle ( interrrupt service time ) by storing the
data.
>
> Thanks for the explanation.
>
> Mark Garvin wrote:
>
> > > "Willie K. Yee, M.D." <DONTSP...@bestweb.net> writes:
> > >What does a buffer do in an analog system?
> >
> > Tough to explain in non-tech terms, Willie, but I'll give it a try. .
> > .
>
> . . . impressive explanation omitted . . .
>
> > And that's all I'm gonna type for tonight. Let me know if any
> > of this was not clear, and I'll post a followup tomorrow.
> >
> > MGarvin
>
> --
> Willie K. Yee, M.D. http://www.bestweb.net/wyee
> Developer of Problem Knowledge Couplers for Psychiatry
> http://www.pkc.com
> Webmaster and Guitarist for the Big Blue Big Band
> http://www.bigbluebigband.com
>
> Remove "DONTSPAM" from return address to reply.
--
X-No-Archive: yes
Les Cargill - lcar...@worldnet.att.net
Anthony Robinson
Carlginger <carlg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991215172946...@ng-fe1.aol.com...
> >From: "David Covell"
> >
> >Correct again; he's also worth listening to when he plays. Cccarl's just
> >jealous.
> >
>
> I heard him. IMO, he's not worth a shit.
> He's revered by most here, because most here....suck.
No. Most here are great. Most think YOU suck. Mostly because you're an
asshole, and since YOU have made it an issue, because your playing ain't
sayin' much for what you've pumped it up to be.
-Anthony
Joey Goldstein
use a "tone pot" for this. Any other pot that is available will do. The
pot does not need to have a 0.02mf cap across lug 1 (to ground) as is
usually used on a tone pot.
All my guitars have only a master volume and a master tone control.
Therefore there is at least room for one other pot on the pickguard or
the body.
Could I rig up a 500k audio taper pot with:
lug 1 wired to ground (without going through a 0.02mf cap)
lug 2 (center) wired to lug 2 (also center) of my volume pot
and
lug 3 wired to lug 3 of my volume pot (also wired to my p.u. selector
switch) through a 500pf (or similar value) cap
for the same effect?
This pot can then be used to selectively bleed to ground some of the
treble frequencies that the bypass cap is bypassing?
Robb and Ann Scott
<stan...@tiac.net> wrote:
> "Revered" is a little strong. He's a good guy, and good guitar player.
Yup. Just a nice guy. There aren't enough Mark Garvins in this world.
> But really Carl if you want to prove you are "better", why not do it? You
> can record something, just you into a boom box, send it to Dale, and Mark
> can do the same. Let us decide.
Threat made, answered with the suggestion of a fair contest, pitiful
nancy-boy excuses offered in return. Gee, where have we seen THIS before.
Hmmm....lemme think back....
> I'll vote honestly and fairly, even though I think you are a loathsome toad,
> and Mark is a decent human being.
> I'd hope and advise everyone else to do the same.
I would do this in a second, and I'd bend over backwards to be fair. In
fact, with the clips labeled only "A" or "B", you can't help but be fair.
But it won't happen. Carl's living so far back in the past he's starting
to resemble Michael J. Fox. His best stuff, laughably one-dimensional and
inspiration-free as it is, was recorded years ago, which is why he's
telling you to go find it on the web somewhere instead of going through
the simple process of getting you a recent clip. He knows, as we all do,
that what little talent he had to display faded years ago.
"Master". Heh heh heh......how lame is that?
---------------------
The One True Robb
Remove the Qs to reply
---------------------
Robb and Ann Scott
<lcar...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> Carlginger wrote:
> > What more do you need to know?
> > Fucking diagrams!!!
> > What a dick. You prove my point with every post.
Heineken, out the nose!
Garvin explains, nicely and succintly, a fairly simple electronic concept,
and our resident dog-faced boy finds some sort of indistinct fault with
it. Never mind his complete ignorance of the subject.
I'll try speaking slowly, genious, in short,
easy-to-understand-even-for-a-subhuman words:
How else are you going to describe a circuit, if not
with a circuit diagram?
How? That's how circuits are represented, Dick Head. If you weren't dumber
than a bag of hammers, you might know that.
You're a mental defective. You prove it with every post.
> Well why does it work, o ye of the scary gear knowlege? What does a
buffer do?
He doesn't have a freakin' clue. Carl is intimidated by Mark, 'cos
everyone knows Mark is a far better musician and guitar player (hell, so
is Tiny Tim). So he never misses a chance to toss a spoonful of "Gerber
for Difficult Babies" at him. Transparent, and sad.
> The guy asked for a general answer to "what does a buffer do in an analog
> circuit". Garvin answered beautifully.
Yup, that's what this forum is supposed to be about.
Thanks again, Mark, for the excellent explanation. I saved it with the others.
Ron Thompson
>
> I heard him.
Probably not. Want to bet?
> IMO, he's not worth a shit.
Great. In my opinion, you ain't worth the paper this is printed on.
> He's revered by most here, because most here....suck.
He's not revered by anyone. He's just respected and admired.
And LIKEd.
You probably don't know what any of those feelings are like. Yer too
busy getting the Klip Kids to woship yer studly guitar playing, and
your fine social skills.
"thirty years under yer belt"? This kinda crap is the best you can do?
Getta POD, go record "Crazy Train" a couplea million times with yer
detention buds.
--
rct
The opinions above are mine and mine alone.
JoeArthur
>
> Could I rig up a 500k audio taper pot with:
>
> lug 1 wired to ground (without going through a 0.02mf cap)
> lug 2 (center) wired to lug 2 (also center) of my volume pot
> and
> lug 3 wired to lug 3 of my volume pot (also wired to my p.u. selector
> switch) through a 500pf (or similar value) cap
>
> for the same effect?
>
> This pot can then be used to selectively bleed to ground some of the
> treble frequencies that the bypass cap is bypassing?
>
You *could* do this... but you would also ground out your signal completely
with lug 1 wired to ground. Just leave this lug... dangling... or connect
the cap via lug 2 instead of 3, and keep the remaining wiring... which gives
you the ability to achieve a little treble cut...
Realistically... you would have to play with your guitar volume control low
enough to notice any effect... and an audio taper pot will "take the
capacitor out" pretty quickly. A linear might be more appropriate for
control feel... over what little range there will be, and 500K might be
overkill - a lot of range with little to no effect.
It wouldn't hurt to try it... but the effect would probably be too subtle to
notice or be useful.
Donald Put
> Yup. Just a nice guy. There aren't enough Mark Garvins in this world.
Amen, broman.
Cheers,
--
Don
Idyllwild Brewing Company (home-brewed beer and tube guitar amps)
Carlginger
>> Yup. Just a nice guy. There aren't enough Mark Garvins in this world.
>
>Amen, broman.
>
Mark, what benefits are there being "Hero of the Stupid?
I mean, Mark...we're dealing with vegatables here.
I am sure that Sean Hart, SQ, Giri, Anthony, etc., are all a bunch of
beginners, if at all.
I wonder is there is any
"religious" bond that links Garvin with the others, some do stick together
through thick and thin...
Have you studied at the feet of the
Rev. Al Sharpton? Jim Jones? Ravi Shankar? The Professer from Gilligan's
Island?
Joey Goldstein
JoeArthur wrote:
>
> "Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
> news:38586942...@nowhere.net...
> >
> > Could I rig up a 500k audio taper pot with:
> >
> > lug 1 wired to ground (without going through a 0.02mf cap)
> > lug 2 (center) wired to lug 2 (also center) of my volume pot
> > and
> > lug 3 wired to lug 3 of my volume pot (also wired to my p.u. selector
> > switch) through a 500pf (or similar value) cap
> >
> > for the same effect?
> >
> > This pot can then be used to selectively bleed to ground some of the
> > treble frequencies that the bypass cap is bypassing?
> >
>
> You *could* do this... but you would also ground out your signal completely
> with lug 1 wired to ground. Just leave this lug... dangling...
Thanks
or connect
> the cap via lug 2 instead of 3, and keep the remaining wiring... which gives
> you the ability to achieve a little treble cut...
>
> Realistically... you would have to play with your guitar volume control low
> enough to notice any effect... and an audio taper pot will "take the
> capacitor out" pretty quickly. A linear might be more appropriate for
> control feel... over what little range there will be, and 500K might be
> overkill - a lot of range with little to no effect.
>
> It wouldn't hurt to try it... but the effect would probably be too subtle to
> notice or be useful.
--
Stan Gosnell
wrote:
>So, if I understand this circuit correctly, there is no need to actually
>use a "tone pot" for this. Any other pot that is available will do. The
>pot does not need to have a 0.02mf cap across lug 1 (to ground) as is
>usually used on a tone pot.
>
>All my guitars have only a master volume and a master tone control.
>Therefore there is at least room for one other pot on the pickguard or
>the body.
>
>Could I rig up a 500k audio taper pot with:
>
>lug 1 wired to ground (without going through a 0.02mf cap)
>lug 2 (center) wired to lug 2 (also center) of my volume pot
>and
>lug 3 wired to lug 3 of my volume pot (also wired to my p.u. selector
>switch) through a 500pf (or similar value) cap
>
>for the same effect?
>
>This pot can then be used to selectively bleed to ground some of the
>treble frequencies that the bypass cap is bypassing?
>
Joey, look at http://www.stewmac.com/06_wrg_07.htm as well as other
stuff in the wiring 101 & FAQ sections. The gif's & explanations are
much clearer than the ASCII diagrams posted here.
---
Regards,
Stan
Smokey Blues
<snip>
>
> Mark, what benefits are there being "Hero of the Stupid?
> I mean, Mark...we're dealing with vegatables here.
> I am sure that Sean Hart, SQ, Giri, Anthony, etc., are all a bunch of
> beginners, if at all.
> I wonder is there is any
> "religious" bond that links Garvin with the others, some do stick
together
> through thick and thin...
> Have you studied at the feet of the
> Rev. Al Sharpton? Jim Jones? Ravi Shankar? The Professer from
Gilligan's
> Island?
I see your gettign the hang of it. You must have had some sort of real
strong sense of oyur lowered self-concept for this one. I am glad you were
able to take it on. Nice show of courage at facing how terrrible you feel
inside. Keep it up, and hang in there big guy!
Dale
Joey Goldstein
Stan Gosnell wrote:
>
> On Thu, 16 Dec 1999 04:23:34 GMT, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net>
> wrote:
>
> >So, if I understand this circuit correctly, there is no need to actually
> >use a "tone pot" for this. Any other pot that is available will do. The
> >pot does not need to have a 0.02mf cap across lug 1 (to ground) as is
> >usually used on a tone pot.
> >
> >All my guitars have only a master volume and a master tone control.
> >Therefore there is at least room for one other pot on the pickguard or
> >the body.
> >
> >Could I rig up a 500k audio taper pot with:
> >
> >lug 1 wired to ground (without going through a 0.02mf cap)
> >lug 2 (center) wired to lug 2 (also center) of my volume pot
> >and
> >lug 3 wired to lug 3 of my volume pot (also wired to my p.u. selector
> >switch) through a 500pf (or similar value) cap
> >
> >for the same effect?
> >
> >This pot can then be used to selectively bleed to ground some of the
> >treble frequencies that the bypass cap is bypassing?
> >
>
> Joey, look at http://www.stewmac.com/06_wrg_07.htm as well as other
> stuff in the wiring 101 & FAQ sections. The gif's & explanations are
> much clearer than the ASCII diagrams posted here.
I've seen all that. Thanks anyway Stan. If you've been following this
thread you should know that I find these circuits unacceptable. I'm
trying to find something better.
Joey Goldstein
Mark Garvin wrote:
>
> >> > Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> writes:
> >> >Well I've tried this now with several values of resistor (150k, 100k and
> >> >75k) and several values of capacitor (100pf, 300pf, 500pf and 680pf).
> >> >When the resistor is in series, yes the taper on the volume pot is
> >> >normal but the effect of the resistor is lost. It sounds just as thin or
> >> >thinner as when there is no resistor at all.
>
> >Mark Garvin wrote:
> >> Use a higher value resistor then, Joey. The resistor will subdue
> >> the treble boost effect, so at some point you should reach a place
> >> where the treble is not boosted too much. The value also depends
> >> on the pot value. If you are using 500k, then try scaling up.
>
> In <384D23F1...@nowhere.net> Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> writes:
> >How far up?
>
> >I am not using anything exotic here, btw. I'm using a 2 Duncan '59s
> >(neck and bridge) with a 3 way switch, master volume (500k) and a master
> >tone (500k). What values of cap + resistor in series do you suppose
> >should work?
>
> >When you say "in series" you mean wiring one end of the cap to one end
> >of the resistor and the remaining end of the cap to a lug on the volume
> >pot as well as the remaining end of the resistor to the other lug, don't you?
>
> Like so:
> cap res
> |-------------+---||--////--|
> ( / |
> ( /<------------+------
> ( /
> | |
> --- ---
> - -
> Pickup vol
Hey Mark, if I wire two 150k resistors in series do I get a 300k
resistor?
Can resistors be added up by simple addition like this?
Carlginger
>From: "David Covell" david.l...@intel.com
>Date: Thu, 16 December 1999 04:26 PM EST
>Message-id: <83blf6$s...@news.or.intel.com>
>
>
>Carlginger wrote in message
><19991216123643...@ng-fe1.aol.com>...
>
>>Mark, what benefits are there being "Hero of the Stupid?
>
>
>>I mean, Mark...we're dealing with vegatables here.
>
>them?
>
>> I am sure that Sean Hart, SQ, Giri, Anthony, etc., are all a bunch of
>>beginners, if at all.
>
>of them play, have you?
>
>> I wonder is there is any
>>"religious" bond that links Garvin with the others, some do stick together
>>through thick and thin...
>
>
drop dead
David Covell
Stan Gosnell
wrote:
>I've seen all that. Thanks anyway Stan. If you've been following this
>thread you should know that I find these circuits unacceptable. I'm
>trying to find something better.
>
I haven't seen all of it, I was out of town & the first half or so of
it seems to have already been deleted from my server.
My own preference is to use the treble bleed circuit described there
on the volume control, combined with the anti-shock circuit, & do away
with the tone control entirely, using an equalizer & the amp tone
controls to adjust the tone. Actually, I usually run the amp controls
all the way up, & just use the equalizer. The tone stays very close
to the same regardless of the instrument volume setting.
This may not be your preference, but it works for me. I don't bother
to put tone controls on my instruments. I've tried not using volume
controls, but went back to them.
---
Regards,
Stan
Smokey Blues!
Dale
--
================================================
No ... stories are not reality. They are magic. They
magically transform how we cope with reality.
================================================
Family & Work Page
http://www.geocities.com/hotsprings/spa/3064
================================================
The Anderson Lake Blues Project (Dale's Music Page)
http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/9523/
================================================
Carlginger <carlg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991216164001...@ng-cl1.aol.com...
> >Subject: Re: Mark Garvin aka "Hero of the Stupid"
> >From: "David Covell" david.l...@intel.com
> >Date: Thu, 16 December 1999 04:26 PM EST
> >Message-id: <83blf6$s...@news.or.intel.com>
> >
> >
> drop dead
>
>
>
Not A Speck Of Cereal
>>
>>> Yup. Just a nice guy. There aren't enough Mark Garvins in this world.
>>
>>Amen, broman.
>
Your envy is delicious.
Zorro
Mark Garvin wrote in message <837tdl$14g$1...@panix2.panix.com>...
>> "Willie K. Yee, M.D." <DONTSP...@bestweb.net> writes:
>>What does a buffer do in an analog system?
>
>Tough to explain in non-tech terms, Willie, but I'll give it a try.
>
>works. The loop is simply a battery and bulb in a kind of a loop.
>Electrons go round and round, etc.
>
>Here's the loop in the guitar circuit:
>
> resistance from vol control
> ---------------/////------------------------------->
> | |
> ( |
> ( Pickup |
> ( --- capacitance of guitar cable
> ( ---
> | |
> --------------------------------------------------- gnd
>
>The 'square' at the left forms the first loop. Voltage from
>the pickup travels around it, traveling thru the volume control
>IF THE CONTROL IS TURNED DOWN. This is symbolized as a series
>resistance --/////-- above. (If the vol control is all the way
>up, the series resistance is zero.)
Voltage does not travel anywhere in an electronic circuit.
Voltage is dropped across the elements of a circuit, due to the current
(electron) flow
through those elements. You should know this..it is elementary.
Current flow is induced in the pickup winding by the string vibrating
within, and
breaking, the magnetic lines of flux of the pole pieces. The current flow
around
the circuit causes the voltage drop across the circuit elements.
>
Not A Speck Of Cereal
>
>He knows I play the Jimi stuff much better, and he'll never willingly post a
>clip of his.
You can keep repeating that, if it makes you feel better, but it
doesn't make it true,
>You Sherwood, are nothing but a sack of shit. Sherwood....sounds like a
>douchebag company.
Does that mean it's over Carl? Then I think you should return the
money I sent you for the "operation". <pout>
Ken Schuller
>Hey Mark, if I wire two 150k resistors in series do I get a 300k
>resistor?
>
>Can resistors be added up by simple addition like this?
>
I'm not Mark, but the answer to your question is "Yes." Wiring resistors in
series, you simply add the values to get the total resistance.
--
Stevie Ken Schuller
Slack Jawed PRS Toady and Tele Devotee
"Jimmy Page sold a lot of Les Pauls playing a Tele." --Dan Stanley, on
rec.music.makers.guitar
Carlginger
>
>>Mark, what benefits are there being "Hero of the Stupid?
>>I mean, Mark...we're dealing with vegatables here.
>
>Your envy is delicious.
>
He knows I play the Jimi stuff much better, and he'll never willingly post a
clip of his.
You Sherwood, are nothing but a sack of shit. Sherwood....sounds like a
douchebag company.
JS
(Carlginger) wrote:
>>From: Not A Speck Of Cereal Xchriss...@Xmsn.comX
>
>>
>>>Mark, what benefits are there being "Hero of the Stupid?
>>>I mean, Mark...we're dealing with vegatables here.
>>
>>Your envy is delicious.
>>
>
>He knows I play the Jimi stuff much better, and he'll never willingly post a
>clip of his.
where's yours? I don't know anybody here who has
your clips. Anyone? You know you got them on your
PC, put e'm out. Fucking coward.
>
js
David Fosnocht
> >Subject: Re: Preamp/buffers
> >From: mga...@panix.com (Mark Garvin)
> >Date: Wed, 15 December 1999 06:18 AM EST
> >Message-id: <837tdl$14g$1...@panix2.panix.com>
> >
> >>What does a buffer do in an analog system?
>
> >
> >Tough to explain in non-tech terms,
>
signal
> loss.
>
You're right, people do that. What do stanking, quaking, dung-balls like
yourself use them for?
JS
He keeps a couple beaters around to throw at the
wall when he's reading RMMG.
HAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA, god this is cheap humor. sorry
to all, its gettting bad.
David Fosnocht
> >
> >> Yup. Just a nice guy. There aren't enough Mark Garvins in this world.
> >
> >Amen, broman.
> >
>
Isn't that what they call you over on the HC forum?
> I mean, Mark...we're dealing with vegatables here.
You should eat more of them. Might actually be able to produce a brain
cell.
> I am sure that Sean Hart, SQ, Giri, Anthony, etc., are all a bunch of
> beginners, if at all.
I'm sure that's true...in the Land of the Anus King.
> I wonder is there is any
> "religious" bond that links Garvin with the others, some do stick
together
> through thick and thin...
It could be because he's a likable guy. Foreign concept to you, no doubt.
> Have you studied at the feet of the
> Rev. Al Sharpton? Jim Jones? Ravi Shankar? The Professer from
Gilligan's
> Island?
>
Shut up, Carl.
evil twin®
wrote:
>>From: Not A Speck Of Cereal Xchriss...@Xmsn.comX
>
>>>Mark, what benefits are there being "Hero of the Stupid?
>>>I mean, Mark...we're dealing with vegatables here.
>>
>>Your envy is delicious.
>
>He knows I play the Jimi stuff much better,
Everybody who's heard both of you says he does it better
though. Odd.
>and he'll never willingly post a clip of his.
You gonna put some money on this? You talk a lot, but I
wanna see you get your wallet out. Or shut up.
>You Sherwood, are nothing but a sack of shit. Sherwood....sounds like a
>douchebag company.
Heh. Carlginger...
Mark Garvin
>Mark Garvin wrote in message <837tdl$14g$1...@panix2.panix.com>...
>>Electrons travel in 'loops'. Everyone can picture how a flashlight
>>works. The loop is simply a battery and bulb in a kind of a loop.
>>
>>The 'square' at the left forms the first loop. Voltage from
>>the pickup travels around it, traveling thru the volume control
>>IF THE CONTROL IS TURNED DOWN. This is symbolized as a series
>>resistance --/////-- above. (If the vol control is all the way
>>up, the series resistance is zero.)
>Voltage does not travel anywhere in an electronic circuit.
>Voltage is dropped across the elements of a circuit, due to the current
>(electron) flow
>through those elements. You should know this..it is elementary.
Yes, I do. I have to understand that stuff for doing circuit design
and computer programs for circuit analysis. I was trying to avoid
introducing the concept of 'current', as it some find it confusing.
You're correct, tho'...I probably should have said 'electrons'.
>Current flow is induced in the pickup winding by the string vibrating
>within, and
>breaking, the magnetic lines of flux of the pole pieces. The current flow
>around
>the circuit causes the voltage drop across the circuit elements.
OK, but I don't know if that would reach everyone.
MG
Carlginger
>
>You're right, people do that. What do stanking, quaking, dung-balls like
>yourself use them for?
>
I'm giving you the finger....can you do same?
Daniel R. Haney
> What does a buffer do in an analog system?
Conceptually,
a buffer reduces interaction between two parts of a system
while allowing those parts to be varied independently.
(Note that this definition may be applied generally to
electronic circuitry and aqueous chemistry alike)
A preamp/buffer for a guitar reduces loading on the pickup
by the volume/tone pots and/or the rest of the effects chain.
Older effects pedals, such as the Fuzz Face and Crybaby and
which heavily load the pickups, will brighten up markedly
with a unity gain buffer at the guitar.
Pedantry 'R' Us,
-drh
--
Carlginger
>
>Older effects pedals, such as the Fuzz Face and Crybaby and
>which heavily load the pickups, will brighten up markedly
>with a unity gain buffer at the guitar.
>
>Pedantry 'R' Us,
>-drh
>--
>
>
>
>
>
>
You'll also change for the worse the sound of most old fuzzes, especially a
Fuzz Face by sticking a buffer before it.
Hope this helps
David Moss
Mark Garvin wrote...
> I was trying to avoid introducing the concept
> of 'current', as it some find it confusing.
No reason to find current confusing. Just think
of water squirting out of a pressurized container.
It's not the pressure that squirts, it's the water.
Dan Stanley
> >From: Not A Speck Of Cereal Xchriss...@Xmsn.comX
>
> >
> >>Mark, what benefits are there being "Hero of the Stupid?
> >>I mean, Mark...we're dealing with vegatables here.
> >
> >Your envy is delicious.
> >
post a
> clip of his.
Hey, I have an idea! You TELL him that he has to play the Hendrix song of
your choosing, or else tha contest is OFF! Yeah, man, YOUR terms, right?
You'll saute that Narvig's onions FOR SURE!
And if he refuses, well than we will KNOW he's nothing but a windbag
baraggart, suited only for sitting on a bench in the park, tossing out stale
bread for the pigeons and aiming (and missing) kicks at the rabid squirrels
that swarm at his feet, trying to nip at the toes that peek out of his worn
Buster Browns.
YEAH!
Dan
Michael Edelman
The simplest way of thinking about a buffer is that is isolates one
section electrically from the next section.
A magnetic guitar pickup is a small generator. The strings have a small
amount of magnitism induced in them by the magnets in the pickup. Move
those magnetized strings near a coil of wire and you induce voltage in
the coil and supply current.
When you plug a guitar pickup into an amplifier, the amplifier draws
current from that pickup. The more current it draws, the more it
distorts the waveform of the signal.
The classic Fender guitar amp has an input impeadance of 47,000 ohms.
That means the pickup is acting as though it had a 47,000 ohm resistor
shorting it out. If we could raise that number somehow we'd draw less
current from the pickup.
The pickup has an output impeadance of about 2,000 ohms. That's okay,
but if we could lower that even more, the guitar could supply more
current to the amplifier without distorting. The amplifier needs current
from the pickup; if it was connected to a pickup with a lower output
impeadance it would work better, too.
Once you add volume controls it gets more complicated. Adjusting the
volume control changes the impeadance, and that changes the frequency
response.
A buffer can easily be built from cheap componants with an input
impeadance of many millions of ohms, and an output impeadance of a
fraction of an ohm. Now the amplifier sees only a fraction of an ohm
instead of 2,000 ohms, and the guitar pickup sees millions of ohms
instead of thousands. As an added plus we can put our volume control in
the circuit in such a way that it won't change the impeadance and hence
the frequency response.
There's another benifit to this. By using a lower output impeadance from
the guitar there's more current available to drive long guitar cables
without signal loss.
Ron Thompson
>
> mga...@panix.com (Mark Garvin) writes:
>
> >Yes, I do. I have to understand that stuff for doing circuit design
> >introducing the concept of 'current', as it some find it confusing.
>
> the current!:)
Heh. Actually, my amp tech dude says that the current flow can be attenuated
fairly easily via a minor mod to the input stage of yer average fender, and
the player uses an extra knob to "adjust" to the guitar output/cable length/
plate voltage factors. Somethin like that.
--
rct
The opinions above are mine and mine alone.
David Covell
Carlginger wrote in message
<19991216164001...@ng-cl1.aol.com>...
>drop dead
I do appreciate the sentiment, Carl, but you've already expressed it by
hoping I die quickly from my cancer (not yet, sorry). Once again you're
being repetitive, predictable, and boring, much like your playing must be
these days. Where's that Masterful improvisation you claim?
And since you've once again unwisely invited comments on your intelligence
by referring to the brains of others, I've found a new name for you: one
that befits your formidable intellect, sparkling personality, and your
eventual and tragi-comedic destiny. I hereby truncate your last name to
'dino, or just plain Dino. I suggest you keep a weather eye out for
asteroids and other events of the sort which wiped out your forebears long
ago.
Oh, by the way... that Klon you ordered is *so* yesterday's pedal! Since
I've sold mine I'm now free to tell the truth and slag it the way it
deserves, much like your 3 shoddily-nutted Suhrs. Though the Klon cleans up
when one backs off one's guitar volume, that "one" is not you. Bashing away
mightily with those huge saurian claws of yours, you create "attack
transients" (no, that's a noun phrase, not a command string; you should not
molest the homeless folk since you may soon be joining their ranks) which
will push *any* device far into distortion. Besides, the Klon lacks a pot to
adjust the level of charm, and has no filter to reject those pesky,
tone-robbing mesons.
What you *really* need is the new Delta, which uses quantum-tunneling diodes
for superior non-local clip. It's triangular shape may threaten you on some
dark, Freudian level, though, what with its resemblance to some sort of
bush. You may find it helpful to think of it as a shrubbery.
I ordered my Delta 3 months ago and it should ship Monday. Review to follow.
Ron Thompson
> Besides, the Klon lacks a pot to adjust the level of charm,
Heh.
> and has no filter to reject those pesky, tone-robbing mesons.
Seriously, I've heard that some of the newer ones don't compare
to the older ones because of a change in the meson diode. I know
a guy that took two apart and showed me, but dang if I understood
it all.
> I ordered my Delta 3 months ago and it should ship Monday. Review to follow.
Yeah? Same guy said something about them, but I didn't catch who made them.
Get a review up here when you can Dave.
Ron Thompson
Bob Clayton
>> I wonder is there is any
>>"religious" bond that links Garvin with the others, some do stick together
>>through thick and thin...
>
>
>
Sorry, that takes two, which leaves the Mashter out of luck.
Bob C.
Quality music since 1963.
Steve
baraggart, suited only for sitting on a bench in the park, tossing out stale
bread for the pigeons and aiming (and missing) kicks at the rabid squirrels
that swarm at his feet, trying to nip at the toes that peek out of his worn
Buster Browns.>>
"Sitting on a park bench.....".....
Steve (SEFSTRAT)
webpage: http://members.aol.com/sefstrat/index.html/sefpage.html