Chuck Berry - Up tuning ?
Dan Stanley
"James Doe" <phonya...@Imadeitup.com> wrote in message
news:uma820dv30vojo0f2...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 23:58:51 GMT, James Doe
> <phonya...@Imadeitup.com> wrote:
>
> >Does Chuck up-tune by a step or does he play JB Goode in Bb ?
> >
> >I've been working on that tune, trying to do justice to the Master
> >of bendable-two-noters, and the recording is definitely up at
> >Bb. I could have swore I saw him in a clip playing it in the A
> >position, but it's been a long time.
> >
> >Thanks,
> > JD
>
> Hey, right after I posted that, I realized he's probably playing in
> B down-tuned... comments ?
Could be he played it in A, but it was sped up at the mastering stage, to
make it sound more exciting to the teeny-boppers. Chuck wasn't exactly a
spring chicken, even back then, you know, and they did stuff like that back
then. Now they just use auto-tune...
OR
It could have been in Bb, since that is a key Johnnie Johnson, the guy who
played piano for Chuck might have been real fond of, being that he was used
to playing with horns and whatnot. Chuck owes an awful lot to ol' Johnnie.
I'd go with this as the probable most likely answer.
Dan
Jack Dotson
"Dan Stanley" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:BpYUb.15934$IF1....@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
Dan Stanley
"Jack Dotson" <jdo...@stx.rr.com> wrote in message
news:%BYUb.6022$we....@fe1.texas.rr.com...
Us bar band players always play it in A, but how many of us REALLY learned
it from the record? Besides me, I mean, and only after I'd been playing it
in bars for at least a decade. Admit it, you learned it from some guy who
learned it from some guy whose older brother learned of a Johnny Winter
record of Grateful Dead bootleg or some other cover version, same as all of
us! Learning Chuck Berry songs is a lot like learning about sex. You learn
about it on street corners, do it all wrong for a long time, and eventually
you get so you can do it pretty well, even if you're doing it all wrong,
whether or not you ever get lessons from the master.
Something like that.
Most bar bands don't even play "Johnny B. Goode" when they play "Johnny B.
Goode". They play a curious mixture of "Johhny B. Goode", "Carol", and
"Around and Around", with maybe a little "Roll Over Beethoven" mixed in.
Happily, when they play "Carol", "Around and Around" or "Roll Over
Beethoven", they always toss some "Johnny B. Goode" in, along with the
others, so the Law of Conservation of Chuck Berry Licks is obeyed, and the
universe thus is kept merrily rocking along.
Dan
Ricky W. Hunt
news:BpYUb.15934$IF1....@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
>
That's the only way you can play that song correctly (I mean the barred E
form at the 5th fret). Of course depending on how your guitar is tuned it
could be in any key but it always has to be that "position".
> but it was sped up at the mastering stage, to
> make it sound more exciting to the teeny-boppers.
On old but good trick. Many songs were done this way including some Beatles
songs. Try it sometimes. It gives a totally different vibe than simply
recording the song originally at a faster tempo.
Mondoslug1
>Us bar band players always play it in A, but how many of us REALLY learned
>it from the record?
Chuck Berry? I thought Johnny Winter wrote it.
Besides me, I mean, and only after I'd been playing it
>in bars for at least a decade. Admit it, you learned it from some guy who
>learned it from some guy whose older brother learned of a Johnny Winter
>record of Grateful Dead bootleg or some other cover version, same as all of
>us! Learning Chuck Berry songs is a lot like learning about sex. You learn
>about it on street corners, do it all wrong for a long time, and eventually
>you get so you can do it pretty well, even if you're doing it all wrong,
>whether or not you ever get lessons from the master.
>
>Something like that.
>
>Most bar bands don't even play "Johnny B. Goode" when they play "Johnny B.
>Goode". They play a curious mixture of "Johhny B. Goode", "Carol", and
>"Around and Around", with maybe a little "Roll Over Beethoven" mixed in.
>Happily, when they play "Carol", "Around and Around" or "Roll Over
>Beethoven", they always toss some "Johnny B. Goode" in, along with the
>others, so the Law of Conservation of Chuck Berry Licks is obeyed, and the
>universe thus is kept merrily rocking along.
>
>Dan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Tunes at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/5/andymostmusic.htm
Hoonoze
...and of course The Beach Boys "Fun, Fun, Fun".
Steve Edwards
Dan Stanley wrote:
> .... and the
> universe thus is kept merrily rocking along.
Don't you mean "Berryily rocking along"?
Don Evans
"Dan Stanley" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:BpYUb.15934$IF1....@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
>
> news:uma820dv30vojo0f2...@4ax.com...
> > On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 23:58:51 GMT, James Doe
> > <phonya...@Imadeitup.com> wrote:
> >
> > >Does Chuck up-tune by a step or does he play JB Goode in Bb ?
> > >
> > >I've been working on that tune, trying to do justice to the Master
> > >of bendable-two-noters, and the recording is definitely up at
> > >Bb. I could have swore I saw him in a clip playing it in the A
> > >position, but it's been a long time.
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > > JD
> >
> > Hey, right after I posted that, I realized he's probably playing in
> > B down-tuned... comments ?
>
> Could be he played it in A, but it was sped up at the mastering stage, to
> make it sound more exciting to the teeny-boppers. Chuck wasn't exactly a
> spring chicken, even back then, you know, and they did stuff like that
back
> then. Now they just use auto-tune...
>
Here's a bit of trivia ... they called that "wrapping" for wrapping a piece
of splicing tape around the recorder capstan. one wrap sped up a timy bit,
two wraps sped it up more, etc. Later on they sped up the capstan motor
(with a VCO maybe? not sure about the name) with the same result. It made
grown men sound more like kids.
> OR
>
> It could have been in Bb, since that is a key Johnnie Johnson, the guy who
> played piano for Chuck might have been real fond of, being that he was
used
> to playing with horns and whatnot. Chuck owes an awful lot to ol' Johnnie.
> I'd go with this as the probable most likely answer.
>
> Dan
>
I'd vote for that too ... a lot of CB's stuff was in Bb and G.
Don
Dana Craft
wrote:
>
>Here's a bit of trivia ... they called that "wrapping" for wrapping a piece
>of splicing tape around the recorder capstan. one wrap sped up a timy bit,
>two wraps sped it up more, etc. Later on they sped up the capstan motor
>(with a VCO maybe? not sure about the name) with the same result. It made
>grown men sound more like kids.
>
That's right.
1 wrap = Bee Gees
2 wraps = Alvin & the Chipmunks
or was it the other way around? Anyway, I'm pretty sure it was the
same 3 guys.
IDoTheTalking
forth, but that was not the case. Chuck Berry was/is notorious for playing in
piano-friendly keys like Bb and F. He REALLY did play in those keys. There are
videos out there of him playing. Watch where his hands are.
If you're too lazy, buy a capo, I guess.
Scotto
Don Evans
"Dana Craft" <dana...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:qhpa20hpfepqalirk...@4ax.com...
LOL, actually, it was pretty subtle ... one wrap just gave it a sense of
tightness and energy ... and lightened the tone of the singer.
Don
Lee Daggs
Louis, He claimed that the recordings were speeded up. Keith Richards(who
put on the show), forced Chuck into playing the songs in the keys as on the
recording. Chuck was having trouble singing the songs, and had to work a
little harder. It's out on DVD now.
"IDoTheTalking" <idothe...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040207204139...@mb-m03.aol.com...
DBrophy479
>"Dan Stanley" <vze2...@verizon.net> wrote in message
>news:BpYUb.15934$IF1....@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
>>
>> Could be he played it in A
>
>That's the only way you can play that song correctly (I mean the barred E
>form at the 5th fret). Of course depending on how your guitar is tuned it
>could be in any key but it always has to be that "position".
Because...?
William C.
Playing Bill Doggett's, "Honky Tonk," in E....
Is easier, more comfortable, for a lot of guitar players...
Most piano players would rather do Johnny in Bb. Chuck started out as a band
member with Johnny Johnson.
Some sax players would rather Tonk in F. Billy Butler, the tonk guitar
player, a very fine jazz player, by the way.
Only Chuck knows what he's going to do, when he does it, for quite a few
years now. He changed his road show, and management, format about '59, and
its been catch as catch can ever since, a roller coaster of pickup bands
with varying degrees of musicanship... Rare to see him with a top notch
piano player... I did get to as a kid, decades ago, when he was on a bill
with Little Richard and the Johnny Otis Revue. Joe Turner was a surprise
guest.
"James Doe" <phonya...@Imadeitup.com> wrote in message
news:ffa820pbitvdmnh1l...@4ax.com...
Ricky W. Hunt
news:20040208015032...@mb-m20.aol.com...
> Ricky W. Hunt wrote:
>
> >That's the only way you can play that song correctly (I mean the barred E
> >form at the 5th fret). Of course depending on how your guitar is tuned it
> >could be in any key but it always has to be that "position".
>
> Because...?
That's the only way to play it like the record. There are many different
places you can play the actual "notes" but as discussed in many recent posts
here where you play those notes (even if they are exactly the same notes)
and their "physical relationship" to each other (as in chord forms) make all
the difference in the world (especially in a passage like the intro were you
have to bend one note on one string into the same note on another string).
In fact there's an interview with Keith Richards (I believe it's Keith) were
he talks about struggling for a long time trying to play "Johnny B. Goode"
like the record but not being able to. He was able to hear the notes and
know which ones they were but he was playing them in the wrong place (on the
fretboard) which at least makes it difficult to play and at worst makes it
impossible to sound like the record. Once he finally saw Chuck do it he was
able to play it.
Ricky W. Hunt
news:c04k9s$120n0l$1...@ID-210402.news.uni-berlin.de...
>
>
> LOL, actually, it was pretty subtle ... one wrap just gave it a sense of
> tightness and energy ... and lightened the tone of the singer.
>
Yeah. Most vari-speeds I've worked with have a max change of +/- 10-percent
and that's barely a whole note so a single layer would be almost
imperceptible if you didn't know about it. But sometimes it's enough. I'd
probably never even go over 1 or 2 percent unless I was just trying to
create an effect - or to sing or play something too high/low or fast to do
normally ;)
Bill
wrote:
>Here's a bit of trivia ... they called that "wrapping" for wrapping a piece
>of splicing tape around the recorder capstan. one wrap sped up a timy bit,
>two wraps sped it up more, etc.
Where did you hear this? Not that it's necessarily impossible, but it
would be very difficult to do without putting some kind of bump or
other irregularity on the capstan, which would cause audible flutter.
I've read about this being done deliberately, by the Beatles, I think,
to create a warbly kind of vibrato.
>Later on they sped up the capstan motor
>(with a VCO maybe? not sure about the name) with the same result. It made
>grown men sound more like kids.
It was called a VSO, for variable-speed oscillator. You'd take a test
oscillator and feed it into an amplifier which had a "70v" output (for
driving industrial pa systems, the kind where each speaker has its own
little output transformer). The 70v output would power the capstan
motor, allowing the oscillator to set the tape speed.
Don Evans
"Bill" <bwil...@NOSPAMoptonline.net> wrote in message
news:3njc20plbvlq04ks7...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 7 Feb 2004 13:45:43 -0500, "Don Evans" <gtrdo...@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Here's a bit of trivia ... they called that "wrapping" for wrapping a
piece
> >of splicing tape around the recorder capstan. one wrap sped up a timy
bit,
> >two wraps sped it up more, etc.
>
> Where did you hear this? Not that it's necessarily impossible, but it
> would be very difficult to do without putting some kind of bump or
> other irregularity on the capstan, which would cause audible flutter.
> I've read about this being done deliberately, by the Beatles, I think,
> to create a warbly kind of vibrato.
>
It's more than just possible, I've seen it done. I've never tried it
myself, since vari-speeds made the skill unnecessary. Sounds like the
warbly effect you mention might have happened when someone tried it, it
didn't go right, and someone from the group thought it sounded cool.
> >Later on they sped up the capstan motor
> >(with a VCO maybe? not sure about the name) with the same result. It
made
> >grown men sound more like kids.
>
> It was called a VSO, for variable-speed oscillator.
>
That's it. I've always had trouble with that for some reason .... kinda
like when some people can't pronounce aluminum. :-)
>You'd take a test
> oscillator and feed it into an amplifier which had a "70v" output (for
> driving industrial pa systems, the kind where each speaker has its own
> little output transformer). The 70v output would power the capstan
> motor, allowing the oscillator to set the tape speed.
>
Cool! Thanks for the good explanation.
Don
DBrophy479
>"DBrophy479" <dbrop...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
>news:20040208015032...@mb-m20.aol.com...
>> Ricky W. Hunt wrote:
>>
>> >That's the only way you can play that song correctly (I mean the barred E
>> >form at the 5th fret). Of course depending on how your guitar is tuned it
>> >could be in any key but it always has to be that "position".
>>
>> Because...?
>
>That's the only way to play it like the record. There are many different
>places you can play the actual "notes" but as discussed in many recent posts
>here where you play those notes (even if they are exactly the same notes)
>and their "physical relationship" to each other (as in chord forms) make all
>the difference in the world (especially in a passage like the intro were you
>have to bend one note on one string into the same note on another string).
That's true,but the chord forms are moveable.
>In fact there's an interview with Keith Richards (I believe it's Keith) were
>he talks about struggling for a long time trying to play "Johnny B. Goode"
>like the record but not being able to. He was able to hear the notes and
>know which ones they were but he was playing them in the wrong place (on the
>fretboard) which at least makes it difficult to play and at worst makes it
>impossible to sound like the record. Once he finally saw Chuck do it he was
>able to play it.
None of that has anything to do with whether the song was recorded in A or
Bb,unless there are licks that could only be played on a open string.
Most Chuck Berry licks are moveable up and down the neck.
As another poster pointed out,Berry played in Eb,Ab,Bb,and Db all the
time.They were keys popular in 40's R&B because of their compatiblity to
horns.He's often cited Louis Jordan and his guitarists as his main influences.
Here's a case for JB Goode being recorded in Bb,as opposed to the tape being
sped up:
"Chuck Berry’s original version of Sweet Little Sixteen is in D-Flat- -yes-
-D-Flat. Check out the piano solo. You can’t do those glisses rolling up from
white keys to black- -only by snapping off the black keys to white. Johnny B
Goode is in B-Flat, and Roll Over Beethoven is in E-Flat."
( from http://tinyurl.com/2z6ag )
From memory,"Back In The USA" is Db,"Brown-Eyed Handsome Man" is Eb.
Tab for JB Goode:
http://tinyurl.com/34b6s
Pic of Chuck.Check the left hand:
http://tinyurl.com/ywye4
Those long fingers let him play the Berry rthythm lick in any key.(In the key
of F, playing a barre chord and stretching the pinky to alternate the C and D
notes on the 5th string.)
Sam Byrams
> oscillator and feed it into an amplifier which had a "70v" output (for
> driving industrial pa systems, the kind where each speaker has its own
> little output transformer). The 70v output would power the capstan
> motor, allowing the oscillator to set the tape speed.
Usually you would use a 100V output or rig a convenient xfmr up from
the 16 ohm output, as 70V is a little low. Later on the Invar/Behlman
units came out giving you a compact all in one package. Except for the
Macs, most of the amps laying around studios had such high THD the
capstan motors got hot after awhile.
Chuck, however, recorded all his classic tracks in a facility where
these practices were probably unknown. Muddy Waters didn't need that
kind of stuff. He played in "piano friendly" Bb and Eb because...he is
a jazz guitarist (albeit an elementary one) fundamentally and because
Johnny Johnson, like many piano players not formally trained-Errol
Garner and most famously Irving Berlin come to mind-was comfortable in
limited keys.
A goal of Jazz guitar instruction is the idea that players should be
able to play in any key, an alien idea to rock guitarists. Chuck was
(and is) more interested in fingering female admirers than mastering
all possible chords, so playing in Chuck's keys isn't really beyond
the average player.
Key point of the excellent film: "Johnny Johnson's key"-Keith
Richards. Johnny Johnson's _tunes_. Chuck's lyrics.
Also the wonderful version of "I'm Through With Love", with his
juxtaposition of "an icy Frigidaire" for "with icy, frigid air", which
is probably what the writer (no, not MM-it's an early Thirties show
tune) intended anyway.
William C.
> the Law of Conservation of Chuck Berry Licks is obeyed, and the
> universe thus is kept merrily rocking along.
Reeling and a rocking, Ol' Johnny is aboard the most distant human-made
object in the universe, Voyager I....
Leaving the solar system for the golden west, headed out into the promised
land...
DBrophy479
>dbrop...@aol.comnospam (DBrophy479)
>wrote:
>
>> Those long fingers let him play the Berry rthythm lick in any key.(In the
>key
>>of F, playing a barre chord and stretching the pinky to alternate the C and
>D
>>notes on the 5th string.)
>
>Which is why my stubby fingers prefer Bb :-)
Mine too.If it's in F (and up to G#),I have to move up and play a half-barre
(A form) on the 10th fret,and play the alternating 5th to 6th lick on the
bottom string.
It never sounds as good though. :)
Ricky W. Hunt
> "Ricky W. Hunt" wrote:
>
>
> That's true,but the chord forms are moveable.
>
Right. That's why I said "chord form" instead of actual concert pitch.
Dan Stanley
"William C." <misterw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c0740f$1401ng$1...@ID-216853.news.uni-berlin.de...
"Send More Chuck Berry"
Spartacus
the universe left over from the big bang? Scientists could actually detect
it still resonating. Maybe Chuck was more in tune with the eternal than
anybody realized.
"Sam Byrams" <samdot...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d792394d.04020...@posting.google.com...
William C.
"Spartacus" <rmie...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:UeydnYlDfpk...@comcast.com...
> Anybody remember that stuff in the news a while back about the b-flat hum
in
> the universe left over from the big bang? Scientists could actually detect
> it still resonating. Maybe Chuck was more in tune with the eternal than
> anybody realized.
And he's on his way back to the source.... Johnny in Bb is part and parcel
of the most distant man-made object in the universe, Voyager 1... leaving
the solar system for the intergalactic...