how are royalties allocated across band members ?
Jack
Can someone tell me how royalties are typically divided within a band
across members. I understand, maybe incorrectly, that 50% goes to
music writing and 50% to song writing - is this correct ?
Also, let's say there are 2 guitarists, and 1 creates 90% of the music
and the other 10% - is that how the royalty would typically be divided
?
thanks
Jack
Les Cargill
That would be up to the band/writers.
Y'know all those Police songs? 100% Sting, 0% Copeland/Other Guy.
--
Les Cargill
miker
> >> across members.
Usually Andy does the drummer. HAHAHAHA! ;)
> Like I said, perhaps we were all wrong about everything, but from what
> I could tell, you couldnt assign a person 10% authorship. Had to be
> divided evenly between contributrs.
I remember reading about how (this is in the 70's now...) a band would start
a corporation to receive royalty income streams, and you could allocate
percentages by the number of shares each member had. No reason you couldn't
have one corp for music, one for lyrics, or however messy you wanted it.
Karl
Les Cargill wrote:
> That would be up to the band/writers.
> Y'know all those Police songs? 100% Sting, 0% Copeland/Other Guy.
That "other guy" is a guitarist. I'm shocked you don't know his name.
He was married to Suzanne Summers, IIRC.
Don Evans
"PeeVee_Hermann" <edwardappl...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1115214629.91d4e5c6a2b0e1403fb461cd69de7e13@bubbanews...
> On Wed, 04 May 2005 05:36:16 GMT, Les Cargill <lNOca...@cfl.Arr.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Jack wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Can someone tell me how royalties are typically divided within a band
>>> across members. I understand, maybe incorrectly, that 50% goes to
>>> music writing and 50% to song writing - is this correct ?
>>>
>>> Also, let's say there are 2 guitarists, and 1 creates 90% of the music
>>> and the other 10% - is that how the royalty would typically be divided
>>> ?
>>>
>>> thanks
>>>
>>> Jack
>>>
>>
>>That would be up to the band/writers.
>
>
> not as it was explained to me by BMI. Altho I might be.... mistaken.
>
> As it was explained to me, you cant divide "authorship" into anything
> except evenly divided percentages. You can divide up who wrote music,
> and who wrote lyrics. But, dividing those, got tricky. For example, I
> wrote all the music for XYZ song, and almost all the lyrics, but the
> singer maybe changed one verse of lyrics on the album. The song is
> then registered under BMI as being co-authored, I get 100% credit for
> music, but lyrics are creditted 50% to me and 50% to singer.
>
> there might be another way around this, but after struggling with it,
> this is pretty much the only way we found to register our stuff with
> BMI.
>
> We sold like zero albums so royalites and publishing was a non-issue.
> However. If we had a hit and sold truckloads of albums, I could see
> how it might have become a very tricky issue indeed.
>
> Like I said, perhaps we were all wrong about everything, but from what
> I could tell, you couldnt assign a person 10% authorship. Had to be
> divided evenly between contributrs.
>
> Perhaps you could contact BMI and ask them.
>
>
I could be mistaken, but I think you can pay different writers at different
rates. The first thing .. and this is key ... is that they have to agree
that they each deserve only 10%. The default division is equal shares,
but IIRC it can be changed. Be prepared for some attitude changes when you
ask other writers to take less.
My view ... 50% of something beats 100% of nothing.
Ron Thompson
>>That "other guy" is a guitarist. I'm shocked you don't know his name.
>>He was married to Suzanne Summers, IIRC.
I don't think you RC.
--
rct
The opinions above are mine and mine alone.
Bazooka-Joe
There's a very good book by Donald Passman, an entertainment lawyer,
that explains this concept and many others. I VERY good buy if you're
really interested in taking your music business seriously and to the
next level.
He explains that lyricists (word writers) get 50% of the royalty,
composers the other 50% (music writers). By default if there are
multiple lyricists or multiple composers, they'll split their shares
into equal portions. Alternative splits, other than equal shares, can
be negotiated but must be agreed upon by all involved parties.
So the fine line really is, what consists of music writing versus music
arranging? As a guitarist that (up until now) hasn't proposed any new
songs with melody and chordal arrangements and have only written my own
guitar parts to others' proposals, even though that guitar part has
occasionally shaped the entire hook, and the best parts of the song, I
get no points as officially only "arranging", not technically writing.
This is to protect the band or artist from hiring a studio musician who
writes his own part, regardless of how important to the song it is, and
claiming writing credits.
Goosfraba.
:Bazooka-Joe
Dan Stanley
<edwardappl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 04 May 2005 05:36:16 GMT, Les Cargill <lNOca...@cfl.Arr.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Jack wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Can someone tell me how royalties are typically divided within a band
>>> across members. I understand, maybe incorrectly, that 50% goes to
>>> music writing and 50% to song writing - is this correct ?
>>>
>>> Also, let's say there are 2 guitarists, and 1 creates 90% of the music
>>> and the other 10% - is that how the royalty would typically be divided
>>> ?
>>>
>>> thanks
>>>
>>> Jack
>>>
>>
>>That would be up to the band/writers.
>
>
>not as it was explained to me by BMI. Altho I might be.... mistaken.
A-how-how-how-how!
>As it was explained to me, you cant divide "authorship" into anything
>except evenly divided percentages. You can divide up who wrote music,
>and who wrote lyrics. But, dividing those, got tricky. For example, I
>wrote all the music for XYZ song, and almost all the lyrics, but the
>singer maybe changed one verse of lyrics on the album. The song is
>then registered under BMI as being co-authored, I get 100% credit for
>music, but lyrics are creditted 50% to me and 50% to singer.
25% per boobie.
Dan Stanley
wrote:
True enough. But 100% of everything is better than 50% of everything.
And thus have many bands been torn asunder.
Dan
Dan Stanley
>>>As it was explained to me, you cant divide "authorship" into anything
>>>except evenly divided percentages. You can divide up who wrote music,
>>>and who wrote lyrics. But, dividing those, got tricky. For example, I
>>>wrote all the music for XYZ song, and almost all the lyrics, but the
>>>singer maybe changed one verse of lyrics on the album. The song is
>>>then registered under BMI as being co-authored, I get 100% credit for
>>>music, but lyrics are creditted 50% to me and 50% to singer.
>>
>>25% per boobie.
>>
I'm a Salivationary-American. Thank you for celebrating my diversity.
>its wednesday. somebody's been drinking.
Gotta replace all that lost fluid somehow.
Dan
Guncho
The ownership of a song is divided as 50% lyrics and 50% chords/music.
How you divide that in a band is entirely up to whatever you agree to
divide it up into. Some bands divide everything up evenly regardless
of who wrote what and some don't. That is up to your band.
CHris
Guncho
Your joking right?
Chris
Guncho
> As it was explained to me, you cant divide "authorship" into anything
> except evenly divided percentages.
That is absolutely not true. Like any business you can divide the
profits into any percentage you want as long as the total number is
100%.
Chris
Guncho
Exactly. Which is why lots of bands split all profits equally
regardless of who did what. You're all working towards the same goal
and an argument could be made that you all deserve to reap equal
rewards.
Chris
Guncho
As of now arrangments are not copyrightable and recieve no royalties.
Chris
Guncho
PeeVee_Hermann wrote:
> On 4 May 2005 10:12:47 -0700, "Bazooka-Joe" <se...@poormanrich.com>
> bits of the songs the others brought into the band, but asked for no
> writing credit. Then I bring stuff in, completely finished, lyrics,
> words, melody, everything, and one of them immediately wants to
change
> a few parts of it, suddenly now they consider themselves a co-author.
> And a manager. And an accountant. And a spokesperson. But I digress.
>
> NONE of this is very easy and you'd better go into it with a sense of
> collaboration and be prepared to maybe end up with people getting
> credit for stuff that maybe they shouldnt, and other people not
> getting credit for stuff they should. Either that or just be a
> dictator and tell people up front, this is my tune, I'm getting all
> the credit for it, regarldess of what you contribute to it; and we'll
> do the same thing with your songs. Good luck with that one too.
>
> Bands wrangle with this ALL THE TIME.
Whenever I cowrite something with someone I get it in writing right
then and there what the division of ownership is.
Arrangements aren't copyrightable so that is a moot point.
Chris
Odin
Dan Stanley
>> >My view ... 50% of something beats 100% of nothing.
>> >
>> >Don
>> >www.don-evans.com
>>
>> True enough. But 100% of everything is better than 50% of everything.
>> And thus have many bands been torn asunder.
>>
>> Dan
>
>Exactly. Which is why lots of bands split all profits equally
>regardless of who did what. You're all working towards the same goal
>and an argument could be made that you all deserve to reap equal
>rewards.
>
>Chris
Sure. And a lot of bands start out that way, until someone clues in to
how much money a hit song can bring it. And then each member wants his
own publishing company, and there are some SERIOUS fights over how
many songs each gets on each album, and thus ends another band.
Most tragic case? The Band.
The Doors did it right, and kept at it. Everything was by "The Doors",
although I think a member could opt out of a particular tune if they
wanted.
Little Feat, too, if I remember right...they set it up so the actual
writers got credit on the label, but all monies were split evenly.
Something like that.
Money changes everything. It is funny how when your making 10k a year
in the band, it is all for one/ one for all, but when you have a
chance to make a million instead of 500k, you'll sell yer grandmother.
Dan
miker
> >
> > Nearly-Squeezed-To-Death-By-the-Thigh-Master Summers?
>
> Actually, that's some kind of compressor...
It's called the "Three's Compandery"...
Sounds good but always had too much hissie.
Guncho
PeeVee_Hermann wrote:
> On 4 May 2005 14:43:58 -0700, "Guncho" <cgu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >Whenever I cowrite something with someone I get it in writing right
> >then and there what the division of ownership is.
> >
>
Why? If you both agree at the time there's no headache later.
I don't literally mean right then and there but within days.
Chris
Guncho
PeeVee_Hermann wrote:
As we never got to the point of any serious album sales there was
really no point so no, but I have researched the subject extensively.
Chris
Les Cargill
But those income streams can land in the band's publishing
company, where funds are disbursed as the officers see fit.
FWIW, on the only copyright, multiple author material I
ever worked on, we all assigned equal fractions of each
bucket to everybody. Never got to the "form a publishing
company" phase.
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
NOPE. The Message In A Bottle lick an' everything.
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
Huh? I thoght "all you need is love" .
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
> In article <1115223078.f7e8985a57f7ba0b6adff3f94642a732@bubbanews>,
> PeeVee_Hermann <edwardappl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
>>So what is his name?
>>
>>Nearly-Squeezed-To-Death-By-the-Thigh-Master Summers?
>
>
> Actually, that's some kind of compressor...
>
> /-----------------------/
> The One True Robb
> /-----------------------/
Hmmm...
Is there a patent on the Kegelcizer yet?
(aw, Jones....)
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
> On 4 May 2005 14:43:58 -0700, "Guncho" <cgu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Whenever I cowrite something with someone I get it in writing right
>>then and there what the division of ownership is.
>>
>
>
> Heh. I bet yer just a joy to work with.
>
>
>
It's cheaper'n lawyer letters.
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
> Les Cargill wrote:
>
>
>>That would be up to the band/writers.
>
>
>>Y'know all those Police songs? 100% Sting, 0% Copeland/Other Guy.
>
>
He is? I'm shocked. Izzere a bylaw that requires
such knowlege?
> I'm shocked you don't know his name.
I do.
> He was married to Suzanne Summers, IIRC.
>
So he's Donna,then? So like, Jerry Reed wuzmarrried
to Donna, too?
--
Les Cargill
Guncho
Funds are not dispursed as anyone sees fit. They are disbursed as per
the agreement all parties have in writing.
Chris
Hickory
First, if there's a lot of money involved, why not contact a music
attorney ahead of time, spend a couple hundred on consulting, then you
know for sure, given whatever particular situation you want.
Second, musical arrangements can indeed be copyrighted. So can
performances.
>From the Mini-Encyclopedia of Public Domain Songs. (Annual. New York)
"Arrangements can be copyrighted as well as the original work. The
introduction to the Mini-Encyclopedia uses the example of the
children's song "A-Tisket, A-Tasket"; while the melody and rhyme are
in the public domain, Ella Fitzgerald's version (her arrangement) is
still under copyright."
Guncho
Odin
"Les Cargill" <lNOca...@cfl.Arr.com> wrote in message
>> See "Lennon-McCartney".
>>
>>
>
> Huh? I thoght "all you need is love" .
Until Yoko enters the picture. And there's always a Yoko. Then you're
gonna need a lawyer.
Bones
"Les Cargill" <lNOca...@cfl.Arr.com>
>>>Y'know all those Police songs? 100% Sting, 0% Copeland/Other Guy.
>
> NOPE. The Message In A Bottle lick an' everything.
In case you are serious, Les....Summers and Copeland did more than you may
realize:
"Does Everyone Stare" ...words and music by Stewart Copeland
"Peanuts" ..music by Copeland.
Andy Summers co-wrote "Be My Girl--Sally ".
"Bombs Away"; "Rehumanize Yourself"; "Darkness"; "On Any Other Day";
"Contact"; "Miss Gradenko" ...words and music by Copeland.
"Its Alright For You"....music by Copeland.
"Omegaman"; "Mother"..words and music by Andy Summers.
"Murder By Numbers"..music by Summers.
Just fyi..
Jason
miker
> realize:
That brings up a good point, Jason. I didn't get into the Police until later
on, and I've never heard of most of the songs you mentioned. What I'm saying
is, for the most part the other guys writing may have been a certain
percentage of the Police catalog, but they probably weren't responsible for
an equal percentage of the sales dollars. Giving the most royalty dollars to
the guy who brought in the most sales dollars, eh?
For amother example, who remembers Music Machine? Their hit was "Talk Talk".
A couple years ago I ran into a Music Machine CD with like 30 songs on it.
Now, the guy who wrote Talk Talk is most likely responsible for nearly all
of the bands income, really. He should get more than 1/30.
miker
Bones
"miker" <miker4bu...@mindspring.com> wrote
>> In case you are serious, Les....Summers and Copeland did more than you
>> may
>> realize:
>> (list snipped)
>
> That brings up a good point, Jason. I didn't get into the Police until
> later
> on, and I've never heard of most of the songs you mentioned. What I'm
> saying
> is, for the most part the other guys writing may have been a certain
> percentage of the Police catalog, but they probably weren't responsible
> for
> an equal percentage of the sales dollars. Giving the most royalty dollars
> to
> the guy who brought in the most sales dollars, eh?
Another way to look at it is that if Stewart Copeland hadn't formed the
Police, and took Gordon Sumner ( sp? ) out of jazz clubs into his band, then
Sting would have never been a damn thing, possibly.
So..in that case, Copeland should get most royalties.
Just something to think about..
Jason
Don Evans
"miker" <miker4bu...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:qHJee.6589$HL2....@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
single sales as well. This hit was back when singles sales were frequently
significantly higher than the corresponding albums. In any case, you're
right, being the writer of a non hit song on an album with a hit on it is a
nice thing.
Don
www.don-evans.com
miker
> Police, and took Gordon Sumner ( sp? ) out of jazz clubs into his band,
then
> Sting would have never been a damn thing, possibly.
>
> So..in that case, Copeland should get most royalties.
But, but if Stings mother hadn't... well, never mind. :)
miker
Bazooka-Joe
royalties paid for an arrangement. At least not the last time I did
any research on it. It's really unfortunate if you ask me, because the
"music" (ie. the chord progressions, lead riffs, hooks, pedaltones,
arpeggios...the pieces in which the instruments actually play) can be
heavily altered and be primarily responsible for the song being a hit,
yet no royalties are necessarily ever seen by the individual(s)
responsible for the work done at that level. Seems to me it should
qualify as musical composition, but the definition used by those that
compute royalties is often very specific. And there's no monetary
glory in arranging musical parts.
Good thing I don't do it for the money. :)
Goosfraba.
:Bazooka-Joe
Guncho
Royalties have nothing to do with who formed the band.
Chris
Guncho
PeeVee_Hermann wrote:
>
> Well, to be honest with you, when it came time to divide up
authorship
> of our material for registering with BMI, i was uncomfortable with
> telling my firends and bandmates, "look, you only wrote 10% of my
song
> and I wrote at least 33% of yours". Thats not a very friendly or
> collaborative way of looking at things. It was just easier, and kept
> arguing at a minimum, to just do the equal percentages thing.
>
> If you can indeed do the percentage uneven split thing, more power to
> you. I would imagine that lots of ego wars and arguing would be
> started by that sort of thing.
Never had that problem.
Chris
Bones
LOL...and if God never made the Earth, etc..
Jason
Bones
"Guncho" <cgu...@hotmail.com> wrote
> Royalties have nothing to do with who formed the band.
>
> Chris
I know.
Jason
Dan Stanley
Are you suggesting that Andy Summers sure sold a lot of Police records
while being a former member of the New Animals? Is that your
assertation?And thus that Eric Burdon deserves the lion's share of
Trudy Skylers children? Is that what your claim is?
Dan
Karl
Bazooka-Joe wrote:
> There's a very good book by Donald Passman, an entertainment lawyer,
> that explains this concept and many others. I VERY good buy if
you're
> really interested in taking your music business seriously and to the
> next level.
Google is the only friend I have left! "All You Need To Know About The
Music Business" by Donald Passman. Has anybody read this? Let's get a
review up loaded. Guess I shoulda googled that...
I also found this interview:
http://www.aandronline.com/reading-room/donald_passman.html
> Goosfraba.
What's that mean?
> :Bazooka-Joe
I love your gum.
Les Cargill
> Les Cargill wrote:
>
>
>
> Funds are not dispursed as anyone sees fit. They are disbursed as per
> the agreement all parties have in writing.
>
"What people see fit" is how the writing gets done.
> Chris
>
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
Well, that's good. I'm glad they didn't get totally shut out.
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
> OK, so arrangements are able to be copyrighted. But there's no
> royalties paid for an arrangement.
As I wuz told by my old music prof ( who mimeographed
arrangements ad inifinitum), the flow of money is from
sales of printed materials, for arrangements.
> At least not the last time I did
> any research on it. It's really unfortunate if you ask me, because the
> "music" (ie. the chord progressions, lead riffs, hooks, pedaltones,
> arpeggios...the pieces in which the instruments actually play) can be
> heavily altered and be primarily responsible for the song being a hit,
See also "Puff Daddy"... erm, whatever his name is this week....
> yet no royalties are necessarily ever seen by the individual(s)
> responsible for the work done at that level. Seems to me it should
> qualify as musical composition, but the definition used by those that
> compute royalties is often very specific. And there's no monetary
> glory in arranging musical parts.
>
We gotta settle for the glory of the ephemeral now and again.
> Good thing I don't do it for the money. :)
>
> Goosfraba.
>
Alphleboigenstien.
> :Bazooka-Joe
>
--
Les Cargill
Les Cargill
> On Fri, 06 May 2005 17:37:26 GMT, "miker"
> <miker4bu...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>Another way to look at it is that if Stewart Copeland hadn't formed the
>>>Police, and took Gordon Sumner ( sp? ) out of jazz clubs into his band,
>>
>>then
>>
>>>Sting would have never been a damn thing, possibly.
>>>
>>>So..in that case, Copeland should get most royalties.
>>
>>
>>But, but if Stings mother hadn't... well, never mind. :)
>>
>>miker
>
>
> Are you suggesting that Andy Summers sure sold a lot of Police records
> while being a former member of the New Animals?
They were the Animals, but another band from Coalton was also the
Animals, ao they became the New Animals.
> Is that your
> assertation?And thus that Eric Burdon deserves the lion's share of
> Trudy Skylers children? Is that what your claim is?
>
Only on warm San Francisco nights.
> Dan
--
Les Cargill
david morley
Alan Price did pretty well out of "his" arrangement (he registered it
without mentioning it to the others)
" In the words of Eric Burdon, they claim that Price "nicked" the
writing credit on the Animals' biggest hit, "House Of The Rising Sun".
(Since the folk tune "House Of The Rising Sun" is in the public domain,
artists who record it may take writer's credit for their arrangement.) "
BluesView
"david morley" <david....@gmx.net> wrote in message
news:3e5t4qF...@individual.net...
You don't have to pay royalties for an arrangement? I asking because I
remember (a long time ago) that my school was going to play a song from the
"Peanuts" cartoon or special, I frankly don't remember which song. But,
there was a concern because "I believe" the school was going to have to pay
a fee to use the song in a class play. Maybe I'm way off on this one. But,
does it seem likely?
BV
Bazooka-Joe
pay for the right to use a song in that fashion. My drummer is helping
out a school doing a "Fiddler on the Roof" musical drama production and
they had to pay for the rights to use the songs. But none of that fee,
or any royalties proceeds that I'm cogniscent of, ever go to the
arrangement. Most of the time they go to the record company unless the
artist/band has fully recouped their advance, in which case the
writer(s) actually see royalty moneys.
david morley
Guncho
Royalties are not paid on arrangments. What are you're talking about
is totally different. You have to pay a license fee to performing a
song in a play.
Chris
Chris
david morley
Q: Can I claim performance royalties if I am arranging, orchestrating,
transcribing or adapting a public domain work?
A: Yes. You can claim shares if the work is in the public domain.
SOCAN'S distributing rules provide for credits that may vary depending
upon the nature of the arrangement.
Guncho
None of the songs I wrote are in the public domain.
Chris