Zachary guitar review
bju...@my-deja.com
>> CNC machine to shape the wood is a distinction without a difference.
>
>... Except to the player.
Which is most likely psychosomatic. Could you pass a double-blind test?
>I think most guitar players will acknowledge that there are differences
>between a guitar that is entirely hand made and one which was produced
>(at least partially) by a machine.
Of course there are. The pertinent question is, what are those differences, and do they help or hinder the quality of sound?
>[It is a well known fact that many large guitar
>companies employ very low skilled, low pay workers to build guitars,
>I've read a magazine article where the business folks that run Taylor
>and Martin guitars sadly brag about this fact.]
That is sad. But you are also not comparing apples to apples. You cannot put unskilled labor on machines and expect top-notch quality equipment. And that company knows it -- they are not trying to sell top-notch equipment.
>My guitar is not a mass produced instrument
>and will play and sound different than every Z1 that will ever be
>produced.
True, but why is that a virtue to the quality of the instrument? All you have said is that it will sound DIFFERENT than all the others.
>When compared to large production shops like Fender, Peavey, and
>Ibanez, I appreciate the fact that my guitar was not manufactured in an
>assembly line like a hunk of Detroit iron but was lovingly crafted by
>one person in his garage or basement with a single vision of how
>the guitar should play and sound when its done.
This reminds me of custom pool cues. These puppies can get very expensive, whereas the "factory" cues generally top-out around $500 or so. Do the custom cues play better? Yes. Because they are hand-made? Generally, no, not really. It is more because the factory cue is cutting corners to help with cost reduction. If they were to use the materials the custom people do, the factory cue would be better. But also more expensive.
Put another way, if the custom cue make DID NOT use the better subassemblies, there would be no reason to pay for their (expensive) labor.
I think the same argument could easily be made in terms of guitars. Take a very nice custom guitar, then reproduce it via CNC machines and use the same quality parts. Do you really think the CNC machined clone would be that different in sound?
>I really think that guitar players in generally really need to
>reconsider our needs to change the market so that we have greater
>access to lower cost, higher quality guitars with character.
>Otherwise, it must be clear to everyone that the craft of guitarmaking
>will largely continue to be driven by businessmen who care about
>nothing more than making a profit for company shareholders. Isn't
>it obvious that in the short future we will be almost entirely
>forced to buy cookie cutter production guitars from Guitar Center
>unless this trend stops?
Ok, I agree to a very large degree here. But HOW do you get lower cost, higher quality guitars without using machinery? Manual labor costs money. Those guys need to put food on their tables too.
The home stereo market is dominated by the low-cost, low-quality Japanese makes, such as Pioneer, Kenwood, JVC, Sony, etc. But that hasn't spelled the demise of the mid and high end, such as NAD, Linn, Magnapan, Levison, MacIntosh, PSB, DynAudio, etc. I doubt the same will happen with guitars.
>Finally, please take a moment to think about all of the GREAT electric
>guitars in history. Were they made by hand or by computer? Does the
>human element in these production make them great? I strongly believe
>so.
Sorry, but your statement is invalid, because back in history there wasn't the technology to mass-produce high quality guitars.
I'm not against hand-made stuff, not at all. And it may seem strange for you to hear that at home I have audio equipment from NAD, Linn, PSB and such. Strange maybe because I seem to be defending the low end CNC stuff. I don't buy NAD amplifiers over Sony because NAD is a low-volume manufacturer. I buy it because they use better parts and better designs, and that it SOUNDS better. But that sound could be mass-produced if the market was large enough.
What I am trying to say is it is more the materials used than the manner with which they are put together. The hand crafted guitar will likely use high quality components, and that as much as anything else, is why you like the sound better.
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
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Before you buy.
Zachary Music
I stated in my original post on a guitar newsgroup that as a guitar player
my guitars are better than a certain machine-made, mass-produced,
highly-hyped guitar brand. I can understand that most of you who have spent
thousands of dollars on these guitars would feel offended and hurt
especially if you thought that I may be right. This was insensitive on my
part and I did not blame you for getting defensive.
On the other hand, the person (my customer) who started this post did not
want to offend anyone. He simply wanted to let you know his findings about
my guitar. He spent over a thousand dollars on it but he did not have to
defend or justify his purchase because I give everyone a full return policy
and he could have simply returned the guitar and told me it was shit. He
simply wanted to inform you of his findings and his satisfaction. I think
that his satisfaction made you all feel kind of stupid. actually, its you
who are trying to defend your purchases of overpriced, plastic, machine
made, sterile, lifeless examples of cookie cutter technology. Listen, live
with it, we all live and learn from our mistakes. As I mentioned to you
before this is exactly how the Zachary guitar story started. I was in the
same situation. I bought a guitar for a lot of money and I was dissatisfied
with it. This made me do something about it, by building my own guitars and
doing it better. If you like your current guitar, play it. No one is forcing
you to accept the Zachary philosophy and buy a Zachary guitar. If you love
your current guitar that's great. He was simply trying to inform you not
offend you.
To suggest that I may have written the reviews myself is very stupid. My
first goal is to sell my guitars only to those players who like them as much
as I do. If you don't love it, you shouldn't buy it and I certainly don't
want to sell it to you. My intention is not to mislead anyone in any way,
shape or form. This would not be very constructive in the long term,
Remember, I am not interested in quantity. I do not need to sell hundreds of
guitars. I am only interested in quality. Quality in my product and also the
quality of my customers. I will be the first one to say that if you do not
agree with my philosophy or if you do not like my guitars in any way I don't
want you to buy one, case closed. I only want people to buy them who
appreciate them. I put many hours of work into each one to have it any other
way.
The reviews on Harmony Central were written by two separate individuals who
I never had the opportunity to meet personally, and they both offered to
write these highly objective reviews without any input or authorization by
me. I had no idea what they were going to write or when they would write it.
Don't you find it interesting how the two reviews are almost exactly
identical.
Reading some of your posts in the last few days reveals just how little most
of you know about guitars. I guess it does not really matter how long you
have played. Its like my father who has driven a car for 40 years and he is
a good driver, but don't ask him to repair the car or to tell you anything
about it. Many of the concepts that I and Zachary guitar owners have talked
about only becomes apparent when you attempt to build a guitar or at least
compare one of my guitars against one of the companies you highly praise.
Playing guitar is one thing but building it is something completely
different. By building it you truly become aware of what makes a guitar what
it is. Building guitars entirely by hand is the most difficult thing I have
ever done.
I also toured the Martin factory and what I saw was a group of dispassionate
people. The most striking thing was that there was not a smile in the place.
Skilled? I guess the are at one particular task. One scrapes the binding,
one hammers in the frets, one puts the sides into the automatic bending
machine, one takes the "perfectly" shaped necks out of the CNC machines,
just don't ask any one of them to build you a guitar or even to play one. It
was kind of freaky that there was no conversation between them and no
conversation to any of the viewers on the tour. Its almost like they hated
being there and they knew someone was watching them if they showed any
emotion. I did get a smile out of one of the workers, the guy who fits the
necks to the bodies. I told him that the guitar he was holding was the four
thousand dollar guitar I would be buying and he better do a good job or I
will be pissed. All I know is one week at Martin and I would never touch a
guitar again.
I went to their "1885" ??? shop after the tour. This shop sells CNC
fabricated guitar kits for people that want to take a stab at guitar
building. You can assemble your own "Martin" guitar just like the workers at
the factory. I talked to one of the guys who works there and is an actual
guitar builder. He said that there is not one person on the Martin assembly
line who could build a guitar or even play one.
Someone has also suggested that Fender is a handmade guitar. Not even the
Custom Shop fenders are hand made. They are machine made and only some of
them are hand altered according to the order. Lets get one think straight.
The main purpose of CNC is quantity and disposable workers. Yes CNC is
accurate and it has benefited in the quality of low end guitar production,
but it has not done anything for high end guitar production except to speed
it up and remove the human touch. Quantity that is the key word. Quantity =
profit.
So don't try to put a guy down who is simply trying to be fair and tell you
about my guitars. If you really need to flame someone, do it to me I don't
mind. I know what I can do and I am not threatened. All he was saying is
that after being skeptical (as most of you are) he had discovered the same
thing that I discovered, which is that a Zachary guitar is better in many
ways than any mass-produced guitar. These qualities are difficult to put
into words. You just feel it, its hard to describe.
There is a human quality about my guitars because they are made by a person.
Truth is that most of you will never have a chance to own a truly handmade
guitar. You can go to a luthier and pay thousand$$ or you can buy a high
priced machine made guitar. If you want to get a handcrafted guitar for
about $1000 you have to come to me. The two individuals who wrote the
reviews were smart, their ego didn't stand in the way of owning a true
bargain, a handmade guitar for around $1000.
So you can start you flames if you like. I am busy building my first Trem
model, my first bass and my first hollowbody Z1.
I am simply trying to do things differently and more creatively and
hopefully it will give you more options. So open your eyes and your minds.
I will leave you with an email I received today: There seems to be a real
need for what I do.
Hi! My name is Matthias and I'm from Singapore. I have been very
impressed by your website since I discovered it in September '99. What
really caught my attention most are your views on guitar-making. It's
really hard to find a luthier like you nowadays who still believes in
the old traditional method of guitar-making one at a time pain-stakingly
instead of mass-produced guitar which sacrifice quality for quantity.
And your guitars are real stunners too with its unique wood design that
is made simply and beautifully.
I'm machinist by profession, but given a choice I would rather be in a
guitar related business because of my passion for guitars and music.
It's also my desire to own a guitarshop one day, but for the time being
I am happy to be a part-time dealer working from home.
Over here in Singapore, there are simply too many shops selling the same
old popular boring brands that leave people with limited choices.
I hope to promote your product to customers on a personal basis as to
share to them my passion for this unique product.
If I'm given the rights to promote your product, I will like to order
these 3 models first (1)261298/Z1(p) (2)101099/Z1 (3)261299/Z1. But
I have a problem due to funds holdup and I will not be getting the money
until March '2000. I hope that you can reserve the guitars for me until
I have the available funds to purchase. I'm thankful for your time and I
look forward to hear from you.
Sincerely yours,
Matthias Au .
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
<agri...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:84s8ai$q...@chronicle.concentric.net...
> Hi all,
>
> I know that there has been some interest in and discussions about
> Zachary guitars in this newsgroup and I wanted to let everyone know
> that I have written a review of my Z1 model guitar to
> http://www.harmony-central.com/Guitar/Data4/Zachary_Guitars/Z-1-01.html
> [There are now two reviews of this model.]
>
> My hard tail Z1 has a korina wood body, mahogany set neck, slab
> rosewood fretboard, and dual DiMarzio humbuckers, and I've got to say
> that it's an unbelievable instrument. Alex is definitely on to
> something here. My Zachary guitar is easily the best sounding guitar
> that I've owned (roughly 3 dozen guitars over 13 years) and among
> the top-2 or 3 best sounding guitars that I've played.
>
> I was within a few virtual inches of buying myself a typical AAA
> quilt-top strat with a similar pickup, trem, and electronic
> configuration from a well known high-end guitar company before I
> decided to try a Zachary guitar, and I absolutely made the right
> decision. With this purchase, I have realized that what matters most
> to me (and what I believe should matter to most players) is not the
> brand name, glossy quilted maple "10" top, or the perfect CNC precision
> machined construction but the way the guitar feels, plays, and sounds.
>
> After buying this Z1, I don't think I will purchase a "plastic"
> semi-mass produced CNC manufactured guitar ever again.
>
> Please feel free to write me if you have questions about these
> instruments! agri...@pobox.com
>
Matthew Ivaliotes
>I think that his satisfaction made you all feel kind of stupid.
That's kind of an egotistical assumption.
Look, this issue could have come up regardless of someone mentioning your
guitars. It was a catlyst. The issue of 'by hand' versus CNC has come up
many times before, and is one of the hottest points of debate in the arena
of the 'best' way to make a guitar.
The 'cookie-cutter' technology needs no defense. It's worked for many
musicans, big and small time. It's made some of the greatest music of all
time. It really isn't an issue.
>No one is forcing you to accept the Zachary philosophy and buy a Zachary
>guitar. If you love your current guitar that's great. He was simply
>trying to inform you not offend you.
Opinions are just that, and I doubt anyone really cares if you or this
other person approve of their choice of guitar. I love my guitars. They
sound great and feel great. They ar eanything but sterile. Does that
statement offend you?
>To suggest that I may have written the reviews myself is very stupid.
Or at least over the line, unles they can prove it.
>Truth is that most of you will never have a chance to own a truly handmade
>guitar.
And that isn't really relevant to me. No, really. The onus is upon you
to establish the magic conveyed by your hands. Best of luck with it.
>If you want to get a handcrafted guitar for about $1000 you have to come
>to me.
Not true. I played one built by a local luthier named John Gray. Cut
every piece himself. Good, strattish guitar. I think he charged $800
for it new a few years ago.
Matt I.
speaking only for myself
Ron Thompson
>
> You guys missed the point. You simply don't get it.
I hate when that happens.
> I stated in my original post on a guitar newsgroup that as a guitar player
> my guitars are better than a certain machine-made, mass-produced,
> highly-hyped guitar brand. I can understand that most of you who have spent
> thousands of dollars on these guitars would feel offended and hurt
> especially if you thought that I may be right. This was insensitive on my
> part and I did not blame you for getting defensive.
Well, it's just hard to point at one guitar and call it "better" than any other.
> On the other hand, the person (my customer) who started this post did not
> want to offend anyone. He simply wanted to let you know his findings about
> my guitar. He spent over a thousand dollars on it but he did not have to
> defend or justify his purchase because I give everyone a full return policy
> and he could have simply returned the guitar and told me it was shit.
I don't think he offended anyone. He didn't offend me, I responded to his
review with no feelings of offense at all. If it appeared that way, well,
I apologize. It's good of you to offer such a generous return policy as well.
> He simply wanted to inform you of his findings and his satisfaction.
He did want to do that, but he did it with some pretty absolute statements.
If you've been around guitars a long time, you know too that there really
aren't all that many absolutes.
> I think that his satisfaction made you all feel kind of stupid.
I didn't feel stupid because of his satisfaction at all. Actually I just AM
stupid, so FEELing stupid just goes along with it I suppose.
> actually, its you who are trying to defend your purchases of overpriced,
> plastic, machine made, sterile, lifeless examples of cookie cutter technology.
I guess.
> Listen, live with it, we all live and learn from our mistakes.
I know. I bought/traded/sold way too many great guitars. I shoulda kept 'em.
> As I mentioned to you before this is exactly how the Zachary guitar story
> started. I was in the same situation. I bought a guitar for a lot of money
> and I was dissatisfied with it. This made me do something about it, by
> building my own guitars and doing it better.
And that is a good thing on your part.
> If you like your current guitar, play it. No one is forcing
> you to accept the Zachary philosophy and buy a Zachary guitar. If you love
> your current guitar that's great. He was simply trying to inform you not
> offend you.
I took no offense from him. He obviously like his guitar, and that is a good
thing.
> To suggest that I may have written the reviews myself is very stupid.
I agree, I was not one to say that.
> My first goal is to sell my guitars only to those players who like them as much
> as I do. If you don't love it, you shouldn't buy it and I certainly don't
> want to sell it to you. My intention is not to mislead anyone in any way,
> shape or form. This would not be very constructive in the long term,
> Remember, I am not interested in quantity. I do not need to sell hundreds of
> guitars. I am only interested in quality. Quality in my product and also the
> quality of my customers. I will be the first one to say that if you do not
> agree with my philosophy or if you do not like my guitars in any way I don't
> want you to buy one, case closed. I only want people to buy them who
> appreciate them. I put many hours of work into each one to have it any other
> way.
And you should be commended for that.
> The reviews on Harmony Central were written by two separate individuals who
> I never had the opportunity to meet personally, and they both offered to
> write these highly objective reviews without any input or authorization by
> me. I had no idea what they were going to write or when they would write it.
> Don't you find it interesting how the two reviews are almost exactly
> identical.
Yes, yes I do.
> Reading some of your posts in the last few days reveals just how little most
> of you know about guitars. I guess it does not really matter how long you
> have played. Its like my father who has driven a car for 40 years and he is
> a good driver, but don't ask him to repair the car or to tell you anything
> about it.
It's true. Probably a large majority of guitar players just want to Rock And
Roll with their guitars, not delve into Rocket Science and Physics. Too
distracting.
> Many of the concepts that I and Zachary guitar owners have talked
> about only becomes apparent when you attempt to build a guitar
That I agree with.
> or at least compare one of my guitars against one of the companies you highly
> praise.
I've seen your guitars. I touched one. Didn't play it. Wasn't for me. I can't
compare it to anything.
> Playing guitar is one thing but building it is something completely
> different.
This is true. But the perspective of the guy that put a review in here made
great leaps from the Player to the Builder. There ain't that many builders
in here, mostly players.
> By building it you truly become aware of what makes a guitar what
> it is. Building guitars entirely by hand is the most difficult thing I have
> ever done.
I would imagine so. It isn't something I'd care to do myself. One of the big
companies makes them for me, and I'm pretty happy with them. Mostly. Except the
tooners. Wiring leaves a little to be desired. Switches ain't all that, nor the
pots or jacks. Sometimes the necks ain't lined up right, sloppy nuts, and man
I HATE it when the trees aren't right. But I digress.
> I also toured the Martin factory and what I saw was a group of dispassionate
> people. The most striking thing was that there was not a smile in the place.
> Skilled? I guess the are at one particular task. One scrapes the binding,
> one hammers in the frets, one puts the sides into the automatic bending
> machine, one takes the "perfectly" shaped necks out of the CNC machines,
> just don't ask any one of them to build you a guitar or even to play one. It
> was kind of freaky that there was no conversation between them and no
> conversation to any of the viewers on the tour. Its almost like they hated
> being there and they knew someone was watching them if they showed any
> emotion. I did get a smile out of one of the workers, the guy who fits the
> necks to the bodies. I told him that the guitar he was holding was the four
> thousand dollar guitar I would be buying and he better do a good job or I
> will be pissed. All I know is one week at Martin and I would never touch a
> guitar again.
I must have went to a different Martin Guitar Factory then, because I can
report exactly the opposite of what you experienced.
> I went to their "1885" ??? shop after the tour. This shop sells CNC
> fabricated guitar kits for people that want to take a stab at guitar
> building. You can assemble your own "Martin" guitar just like the workers at
> the factory. I talked to one of the guys who works there and is an actual
> guitar builder. He said that there is not one person on the Martin assembly
> line who could build a guitar or even play one.
Really? I spent a good deal of time in a...uhm...restaurant with one of their
luthier dudes. Sure knew his stuff about building guitars I must say. Fine,
pleasant young man that had worked there for many years. Very proud of what
they do, very happy with their treatment by Martin.
Maybe you went on a bad day or something. Maybe I went on a good day. I don't know.
> Someone has also suggested that Fender is a handmade guitar. Not even the
> Custom Shop fenders are hand made. They are machine made and only some of
> them are hand altered according to the order. Lets get one think straight.
> The main purpose of CNC is quantity and disposable workers. Yes CNC is
> accurate and it has benefited in the quality of low end guitar production,
> but it has not done anything for high end guitar production except to speed
> it up and remove the human touch. Quantity that is the key word. Quantity =
> profit.
I guess. Can't blame them for wanting to make some money. Bad enough all the
guys building guitars that are nothing but Fenders with someone elses name on
the headstock. For me, once they pour a couple of gallons of car paint on it,
I couldn't tell you how the cut the body, nor do I care. If it Rock And Roll
comes out of it, I don't care at all.
> So don't try to put a guy down who is simply trying to be fair and tell you
> about my guitars. If you really need to flame someone, do it to me I don't
> mind. I know what I can do and I am not threatened. All he was saying is
> that after being skeptical (as most of you are) he had discovered the same
> thing that I discovered, which is that a Zachary guitar is better in many
> ways than any mass-produced guitar. These qualities are difficult to put
> into words. You just feel it, its hard to describe.
> There is a human quality about my guitars because they are made by a person.
I can understand that, and since some of this was about some things that I wrote,
I wasn't trying to put the guy down. It's really really hard to convince guitar
players that one PICK is better than the others, so you can see the difficulty
you face with yer guitars.
> Truth is that most of you will never have a chance to own a truly handmade
> guitar.
Why not?
> You can go to a luthier and pay thousand$$ or you can buy a high
> priced machine made guitar. If you want to get a handcrafted guitar for
> about $1000 you have to come to me.
Are you the only guy making guitars by hand for around a grand? Where are you?
We gotta guy right up in the next county making them by hand for about 700 each,
you can go WATCH him fer cryin out loud. Nice guitars too.
> The two individuals who wrote the
> reviews were smart, their ego didn't stand in the way of owning a true
> bargain, a handmade guitar for around $1000.
>
> So you can start you flames if you like. I am busy building my first Trem
> model, my first bass and my first hollowbody Z1.
> I am simply trying to do things differently and more creatively and
> hopefully it will give you more options. So open your eyes and your minds.
I agree that you are trying to do something different, and I wish you the best
with it. My eyes and mind are both fully open, they have been ever since I
started playing.
> I will leave you with an email I received today: There seems to be a real
> need for what I do.
>
> Hi! My name is Matthias and I'm from Singapore. I have been very
> impressed by your website since I discovered it in September '99. What
> really caught my attention most are your views on guitar-making. It's
> really hard to find a luthier like you nowadays who still believes in
> the old traditional method of guitar-making one at a time pain-stakingly
> instead of mass-produced guitar which sacrifice quality for quantity.
> And your guitars are real stunners too with its unique wood design that
> is made simply and beautifully.
> I'm machinist by profession, but given a choice I would rather be in a
> guitar related business because of my passion for guitars and music.
> It's also my desire to own a guitarshop one day, but for the time being
> I am happy to be a part-time dealer working from home.
> Over here in Singapore, there are simply too many shops selling the same
> old popular boring brands that leave people with limited choices.
> I hope to promote your product to customers on a personal basis as to
> share to them my passion for this unique product.
> If I'm given the rights to promote your product, I will like to order
> these 3 models first (1)261298/Z1(p) (2)101099/Z1 (3)261299/Z1. But
> I have a problem due to funds holdup and I will not be getting the money
> until March '2000. I hope that you can reserve the guitars for me until
> I have the available funds to purchase. I'm thankful for your time and I
> look forward to hear from you.
Cool. I hope you sell a bunch of them over there, here, everywhere.
--
rct
The opinions above are mine and mine alone.
Zachary Music
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
Matthew Ivaliotes <lo...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:85347t$e3f$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu...
> "Zachary Music" <in...@zacharymusic.com> writes:
>
> >I think that his satisfaction made you all feel kind of stupid.
>
> That's kind of an egotistical assumption.
Obviously you have a hard time accepting that someone can build a better
guitar by hand with primitive tools in a small shop. This does burst you
bubble, doesn't it. After all, to justify the cost of your guitars you
really must believe that no unknown guy could ever out do the BIG
manufactureres with all their high tech. It would make me feel stupid as
well if I was in your position. But just try to look past that and just
accept it. It is possible. You are worshiping false gods.
>
> Look, this issue could have come up regardless of someone mentioning your
> guitars. It was a catlyst. The issue of 'by hand' versus CNC has come up
> many times before, and is one of the hottest points of debate in the arena
> of the 'best' way to make a guitar.
>
> The 'cookie-cutter' technology needs no defense. It's worked for many
> musicans, big and small time. It's made some of the greatest music of all
> time. It really isn't an issue.
McDonalds and fast food needs no defence either. It works great, 5 Billion
served each year, right?? Its time to go to a higher level. Don't be afraid,
you may like fine food better, just try it. Don't be afraid. Its much
healthier for you as well. Mass produced stuff is artificial and plastic.
Tell me a McDonalds hamburger is not plastic or should I say cardboard. It
does do the trick though, you are right. I do hope you have higher
standards.
>
> >No one is forcing you to accept the Zachary philosophy and buy a Zachary
> >guitar. If you love your current guitar that's great. He was simply
> >trying to inform you not offend you.
>
> Opinions are just that, and I doubt anyone really cares if you or this
> other person approve of their choice of guitar. I love my guitars. They
> sound great and feel great. They ar eanything but sterile. Does that
> statement offend you?
Obviously you have never played a truly handcrafted guitar and you have
never played one of mine. It is really easy to make a crappy handcrafted
guitar. But if you do it right its magic. I would have the same oppinion if
I never ate at any other place then McDonalds. I would be perfectly happy
with that Big Mac, hold the pickle please.
>
> >To suggest that I may have written the reviews myself is very stupid.
>
> Or at least over the line, unles they can prove it.
>
> >Truth is that most of you will never have a chance to own a truly
handmade
> >guitar.
>
> And that isn't really relevant to me. No, really. The onus is upon you
> to establish the magic conveyed by your hands. Best of luck with it.
Well it should matter. You are a guitar enthusiast, arn't you? Are you that
disinterested? You may want to check out another newsgroup.
>
> >If you want to get a handcrafted guitar for about $1000 you have to come
> >to me.
>
> Not true. I played one built by a local luthier named John Gray. Cut
> every piece himself. Good, strattish guitar. I think he charged $800
> for it new a few years ago.
Yes I am sure that there are a few others, not many. Who would be stupid
enough to do it this way anyway? Buying materials in small quantities at
high prices. Spending many hours building each guitar. Sacraficing safety by
using hand power tools that can chop off your fingers or take out your eye
any day. Have you ever seen a CNC machine? Its entire enclosed in glass. It
looks magnificent. Just think of all the free time i would have if i had one
of these babies. My hands would be much cleaner too. I am married but I
could also have a girlfriend on the side. Your giving me ideas.
This is what the "smart guitar builders" do. They contract CNC people like
Wormoth or countless others to build them bodies and necks. They then send
these parts to another company that just paints them. When the finished
bodies and necks arrive they take the hardware and assemble the guitar.
Usually a fender style guitar works the best. No creativity involved, who
need it right?
They are true guitar builders, aren't they. But who cares right? They sure
do, they have fooled you. "Keep them stupid and they will love you". Is't
that what all dictators say?
Wow, YOU can even do that. Anyone can. These are the guitar companies that
most of you praise. I don't want to mention any names, just look at your
guitar headstocks. I am doing it the hard way my fried. It is virtually
impossible for someone to build a guitars by hand the way I do, sell it for
$1000 and still make some money at it. The secret is in the design.
I am forcing you to think and thats good.
Ron Thompson
>
> Obviously you have a hard time accepting that someone can build a better
> guitar by hand with primitive tools in a small shop. This does burst you
> bubble, doesn't it. After all, to justify the cost of your guitars you
> really must believe that no unknown guy could ever out do the BIG
> manufactureres with all their high tech. It would make me feel stupid as
> well if I was in your position. But just try to look past that and just
> accept it. It is possible. You are worshiping false gods.
But...what if...and I know this may sound crazy, but just what if...them
guitars are just fine? What if some people, maybe even lots of people,
maybe they just like them guitars? Maybe.
> McDonalds and fast food needs no defence either. It works great, 5 Billion
> served each year, right?? Its time to go to a higher level. Don't be afraid,
> you may like fine food better, just try it. Don't be afraid. Its much
> healthier for you as well. Mass produced stuff is artificial and plastic.
> Tell me a McDonalds hamburger is not plastic or should I say cardboard. It
> does do the trick though, you are right. I do hope you have higher
> standards.
Yer comparing Hamburgers and Guitars.
> Obviously you have never played a truly handcrafted guitar and you have
> never played one of mine. It is really easy to make a crappy handcrafted
> guitar. But if you do it right its magic. I would have the same oppinion if
> I never ate at any other place then McDonalds. I would be perfectly happy
> with that Big Mac, hold the pickle please.
You aren't doing yourself any service with this kind of position you know.
Yer talking to the very same people that spend idiotic, in your view, amounts
of money on guitars, that they very well COULD spend on yours.
> Well it should matter. You are a guitar enthusiast, arn't you? Are you that
> disinterested? You may want to check out another newsgroup.
Are you suggesting, that before there was You, there wasn't anyone really
interested in guitars because You didn't exist to make them the "right"
way? Man.
> This is what the "smart guitar builders" do. They contract CNC people like
> Wormoth or countless others to build them bodies and necks. They then send
> these parts to another company that just paints them. When the finished
> bodies and necks arrive they take the hardware and assemble the guitar.
> Usually a fender style guitar works the best. No creativity involved, who
> need it right?
On the other hand, who can deny the subtle simplicity of time tested designs?
Really. What's actually WRONG with say, a tele, a strat, a les paul?
> They are true guitar builders, aren't they. But who cares right? They sure
> do, they have fooled you. "Keep them stupid and they will love you". Is't
> that what all dictators say?
Not really. That's what all the guys that want the dictators job usually say
the dictator is saying.
> Wow, YOU can even do that. Anyone can. These are the guitar companies that
> most of you praise. I don't want to mention any names, just look at your
> guitar headstocks. I am doing it the hard way my fried. It is virtually
> impossible for someone to build a guitars by hand the way I do, sell it for
> $1000 and still make some money at it. The secret is in the design.
>
> I am forcing you to think and thats good.
Yes, yes you are. I don't think I'll be spending any money on one of yours.
Good luck with it.
Zachary Music
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
Ron Thompson <thom...@tc.faa.gov> wrote in message
news:387516...@tc.faa.gov...
> Zachary Music wrote:
> >
> > You guys missed the point. You simply don't get it.
>
> I hate when that happens.
>
> > I stated in my original post on a guitar newsgroup that as a guitar
player
> > my guitars are better than a certain machine-made, mass-produced,
> > highly-hyped guitar brand. I can understand that most of you who have
spent
> > thousands of dollars on these guitars would feel offended and hurt
> > especially if you thought that I may be right. This was insensitive on
my
> > part and I did not blame you for getting defensive.
>
> Well, it's just hard to point at one guitar and call it "better" than any
other.
Not really, unless all the guitars were mass produced the same way, painted
with two gallons of car paint and don't exhibit any real originality. My
guitars are significantly different, so when you pick them up they are
unmistakeable. Love then or hate them the will be different.
>
> > On the other hand, the person (my customer) who started this post did
not
> > want to offend anyone. He simply wanted to let you know his findings
about
> > my guitar. He spent over a thousand dollars on it but he did not have to
> > defend or justify his purchase because I give everyone a full return
policy
> > and he could have simply returned the guitar and told me it was shit.
>
> I don't think he offended anyone. He didn't offend me, I responded to his
> review with no feelings of offense at all. If it appeared that way, well,
> I apologize. It's good of you to offer such a generous return policy as
well.
you didn't exactly seem too responsive to his claims.
>
> > He simply wanted to inform you of his findings and his satisfaction.
>
> He did want to do that, but he did it with some pretty absolute
statements.
> If you've been around guitars a long time, you know too that there really
> aren't all that many absolutes.
>
> > I think that his satisfaction made you all feel kind of stupid.
>
> I didn't feel stupid because of his satisfaction at all. Actually I just
AM
> stupid, so FEELing stupid just goes along with it I suppose.
To accept the Zachary philosophy would create too much cognitive dissonance
for you. You would have to change your whole concept of guitars. I
understand that this would be uncomfortable. Sort of like making people
belive that the earth is round. Galileo had the same problem I have. Didn't
they run him out of town or worse?
Rocket science I know nothing about and it has nothing to do with guitars.
But the more you know about your instrument the better player you will be.
Why not have some interest beyond those three chords? A little curiosity
makes for a smart boy.
>
> > Many of the concepts that I and Zachary guitar owners have talked
> > about only becomes apparent when you attempt to build a guitar
>
> That I agree with.
>
> > or at least compare one of my guitars against one of the companies you
highly
> > praise.
>
> I've seen your guitars. I touched one. Didn't play it. Wasn't for me.
I can't
> compare it to anything.
Where did you touch one? I hope you are being truthful.
>
> > Playing guitar is one thing but building it is something completely
> > different.
>
> This is true. But the perspective of the guy that put a review in here
made
> great leaps from the Player to the Builder. There ain't that many
builders
> in here, mostly players.
He simply put the thing to the test and checked out the guitar to see if my
theories were valid. And he agreed. Those two guitars were under a
microscope since they felt that it was up to them to report to all you
skeptics.
No, we went to the same place. You just weren't looking for the same things
I was. Did you noticed that none of the workers talked to anyone. Did you
notice that it really was not an open tour. You could only go to certain
places and you couldn't really ask the workers any questions. I asked to see
the fretting department and they said NO.
>
> > I went to their "1885" ??? shop after the tour. This shop sells CNC
> > fabricated guitar kits for people that want to take a stab at guitar
> > building. You can assemble your own "Martin" guitar just like the
workers at
> > the factory. I talked to one of the guys who works there and is an
actual
> > guitar builder. He said that there is not one person on the Martin
assembly
> > line who could build a guitar or even play one.
>
> Really? I spent a good deal of time in a...uhm...restaurant with one of
their
> luthier dudes. Sure knew his stuff about building guitars I must say.
Fine,
> pleasant young man that had worked there for many years. Very proud of
what
> they do, very happy with their treatment by Martin.
A luthier dude would be bored out of his brains working there. My wife or
mother would have a much better time. They could be trained to do one task
and they would do it very well. It is no place for a luthier dude. They did
have on luthier dude there and he quite a few weeks before my tour. His name
was Frank with and Italian last name. He now runs his own shop and gives
guitar building courses. He may have been the one you talked to.
You sound like you're not too hard to please. I sort of had the same
attitude about women untill I met my foxy wife.
>
> > So don't try to put a guy down who is simply trying to be fair and tell
you
> > about my guitars. If you really need to flame someone, do it to me I
don't
> > mind. I know what I can do and I am not threatened. All he was saying is
> > that after being skeptical (as most of you are) he had discovered the
same
> > thing that I discovered, which is that a Zachary guitar is better in
many
> > ways than any mass-produced guitar. These qualities are difficult to put
> > into words. You just feel it, its hard to describe.
> > There is a human quality about my guitars because they are made by a
person.
>
> I can understand that, and since some of this was about some things that I
wrote,
> I wasn't trying to put the guy down. It's really really hard to convince
guitar
> players that one PICK is better than the others, so you can see the
difficulty
> you face with yer guitars.
Again, if I made Fender copies I would agree with you. It would be
difficult. I don't make guitars like any other.
>
> > Truth is that most of you will never have a chance to own a truly
handmade
> > guitar.
>
> Why not?
Because there are not too many doing it at an affordable price.
>
> > You can go to a luthier and pay thousand$$ or you can buy a high
> > priced machine made guitar. If you want to get a handcrafted guitar for
> > about $1000 you have to come to me.
>
> Are you the only guy making guitars by hand for around a grand? Where are
you?
> We gotta guy right up in the next county making them by hand for about 700
each,
> you can go WATCH him fer cryin out loud. Nice guitars too.
You better go back and do watch him. He must be a magician. My material cost
with the case is $500 alone. Now count the hours of labor. He must be a
magician or he has the Warmoth phone number memorized.
Thanks for the support.
Les Cargill
>
> Zachary Music <in...@zacharymusic.com> wrote in message
> news:Fj9d4.1098$S64....@nnrp1.uunet.ca..
> "Zachary Music" <in...@zacharymusic.com> writes:
> >
> > Obviously you have a hard time accepting that someone can build a better
> > guitar by hand with primitive tools in a small shop.
>
> > well if I was in your position.
>
>
> you
>
> customer relation skills.
Heee-haw. *Snerck*. I'm glad you told him first. But I'm obviously
a troglodic philistine, without the delicate sensibilities necessary to
understand such things.
--
Les Cargill - lcar...@worldnet.att.net
Les Cargill
<snip>
> To accept the Zachary philosophy would create too much cognitive dissonance
> for you.
Bud, you might wanna rethink yer PR stance here.
Really, don't take it all so *seriously*. It's just guitars, man.
> You would have to change your whole concept of guitars.
Ron's flexible. Very flexible.
> I understand that this would be uncomfortable. Sort of like making people
> belive that the earth is round.
You unnerstand my position, right?
It's difficult to beleive that some guy posting to noozegroops is the
Second Coming of Leo Fender. I'd think that person had better things to do.
> Galileo had the same problem I have. Didn't
> they run him out of town or worse?
Oh my. Good luck in your future endeavors, sir. And don't invade Russia
in the winter.
Anthony Robinson
> You guys missed the point. You simply don't get it.
I saw your guitars at your booth at the Philly Fall show back in November..
Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to try one.
I tell ya though, if you made them in all body styles instead of the 2 you
offer, I bet more people would bite.
If you made one that looked like a strat, I'd prolly go for that. I think
that for around a grand, a totally hand-made guitar is a really good buy. I
know that you probably hate the idea of making anything that looks like a
strat, but hey, that's what I've been weaned on, and that's what feels
perfect to me.
I would be ALL over a crazy wood strat like some of those I saw at your
booth. I think the knots and stuff are pretty cool, and a different twist on
what has been the standard.
But I will say that your attitude is a big time turnoff to someone who plays
machine-made, mass-produced guitars and has always found a few of them that
felt perfect. It's one thing to have a philosophy and present it, it's
another thing to tell everyone else that their own philosophy sucks. As far
as I know, you are the only builder around right now with any sort of
"presence" who builds entirely by hand. If I were you, I'd capitalize on
that and be a little more flexible with your ideals and let your customers
decide a bit more about what they want to play.
Just my opinion..
-Anthony
agri...@pobox.com
I spent way too much time a couple of days ago typing a huge response
to Richard Huddleston, but I did not want to get into a flame war on
this topic, nor did I want to waste time on someone who so eagerly has
such a condescending disposition towards someone he disagrees with. I
did not appreciate his attempt to be witty at my expense, especially
when he knows nothing about me. In any case, based on his response
and an attempt to insult me outside of the scope of my arguments, he
was definitely offended and/or threatened with my views. After viewing
his web page [and listening to his sound clips], it appears that he
owns a Suhr guitar, so he's clearly passionate about his pro-CNC
stance.
Please notice that Richard intentionally did not address all of my
comments in my response and brushed them off as a "rant". In my mind,
this largely disqualifies his last response in many ways.
Additionally, I have owned nearly 3 dozen CNC cut and hand made
guitars, so I feel that I have a strong to objectively support what I
am attempting to express.
I will make a few very brief and direct comments addressing some of
the responses and I open the floor to anyone wanting to have the last
word as I will no longer defend my position here.
The foundation of Richard's argument is that a CNC machine is just
another tool to build a comparable guitar and this is something I
strongly disagree with. Read on to discover why and what John Suhr
has said to support my arguments.
The simple irrefutable fact is that a CNC machine is a tool to build a
stronger *business*. The reason that CNC assisted manufacturing has
been introduced into the context of guitar building is to A. improve
product consistency, B. reduce costs and increase profit by 1.
increasing production efficency, 2. reducing waste due to human
error, and 3. leveraging the CNC machine to hire lower cost builders
that will not have the same skills as a master like John Suhr to build
comparable guitars.
Based on my experience, I believe that a guitar that has been
completely hand made by a master luthier will be better in most ways
to one that has been produced with the assistance of a computer
assisted manufacturing process. I do not believe that this is a
subjective statement. Many people with much more experience in this
than myself or Richard will agree with this statement.
Again, I ask everyone to consider the most valuable production electric
guitars in history. These guitars are valued for their playability,
tone, and feel. Name one that has been cut by a CNC router. I just
can't think of any.
I have tremendous respect for John Suhr, and I just checked his web
site to read about his manufacturing process:
"We design a hand built feel into designs produced with modern
technology." ... "We cut our own necks, bodies, and pickguards on our
state of the art CNC router." ... "Our fret slots are CNC cut"
... "each (guitar is) assembled by one builder."
John Suhr himself clearly indicates that his goal is to produce a CNC
manufactured guitar that has the same qualities as a hand-built
instrument. If you disagree with anything that I am saying, you must
ask yourself: Why does he feel that a hand-built guitar is the
benchmark? Once you take the time to consider this, how can you argue
that the resultant instruments are equivalent? Additionally, it can be
argued that he doesn't really BUILD his guitars any more than someone
ordering Warmoth parts does. He simply assembles components produced
by his expensive machines.
There are many parallels between our discussion and the ongoing
digital/solid state vs tube amp argument. Everyone acknowledges that
all-tube amps are the benchmark tone for guitar players, but for as
long as I can remember, the digital/solid state folks constantly claim
that they've emulated or captured the feel of a real tube amp ... But
we all know better! My Line6 POD is a great tool and can get somewhat
close to my Mesa Boogie, but they're absolutely not the same!
Similarly, CNC manufactured guitars can capture the qualities that are
present in a hand-built guitar? I know better than to believe this
statement!
I have played and/or owned many high-end guitars, including guitars
that were made for and played by high-profile stars... Pensa/Suhr,
Anderson, PRS, Gibson Custom Shop, Brian Moore, Fender Custom Shop,
and other very nice guitars like Ernie Ball EVH (one of the best
sounding guitars I've ever played was a friend's EVH), custom shop B.C.
Rich and Jackson, Ibanez, and so on. One fact that can not be disputed
is that I purchased a *hand made* Zachary guitar that to my ears
absolutely smokes most of these (largely CNC produced) instruments in
tone at a significantly lower price point. 'Nuff said.
I hope everyone has a happy and safe new year and that they're enjoying
their instruments regardless if they're manufactured entirely by hand
or with the assistance of a CNC router.
P.S. Richard - your interpretation of "Agrionia" was incorrect, and
your implication that I dislike technology is also false. In a
professional context, I have done benefitted well from technology and
simply appreciate "the finer things". Peace.
Grey Feather
Hey,
The velcro stuff...I don't know where to find it. I think Radio
Shack carries it, but their prices are extortionate on some things.
Maybe Lowe's has it? OR you might try some sewing/fabric shops,
thought I think what they have is going to be sew-in stuff. You're
after something using adhesive backing, aren't you?
Jody
On 7 Jan 2000 01:04:01 GMT, joh...@ix.netcom.com(John Huff) wrote:
>
>
>I've gotten everything together for my pedalboard except some good
>velcro-3M stuff is what you pedal guys are using, right?
>
>I went to Home Depot today and didn;t run across any...
>
>So far I got the board (3/4" plywood) cut to size, a wood strip under
>front edge to tilt it up some, and started painting it flat black.
>Also got some nice aluminum edging to trim up the sides.
>
>All that is left is get some George L's cable and plugs, and a/B
>switch, and glue/tack down some thin strips of wood or something under
>where the wah, Fulldrive and fuzz will go so that I can keep the big
>rubber feet on 'em.
>
>Its gonna be cool-it will have my wah, OD, Fuzz, delay and chorus, a VL
>pedal power, and my tuner.
>
>Daniel
--**--
I don't take spam...Remove the REMOVE from my reply-to address
Obligatory web-site plug:
www.geocities.com/SoHo/Bistro/9760/
Nick V. Flor
"The fate of all true geniuses is ultimately to be misunderstood"
(something like that)
Grey Feather
Good point...didn't think of Wally World, buy they have everything
else....
Jody
On Fri, 07 Jan 2000 02:11:49 GMT, sco...@tape.com (ЯеgюоюЛ mес) wrote:
>On Thu, 06 Jan 2000 20:08:48 -0600, Grey Feather
><jod...@freenet.tlh.fl.us> wrote:
>
>>Hey,
>>
>> The velcro stuff...I don't know where to find it. I think Radio
>>Shack carries it, but their prices are extortionate on some things.
>>Maybe Lowe's has it? OR you might try some sewing/fabric shops,
>>thought I think what they have is going to be sew-in stuff. You're
>>after something using adhesive backing, aren't you?
>>
>> Jody
>
>Walmart has both sew-on and adhesive back versions. Velcro is
>extortionately priced wherever you buy it. It's patented.
Grey Feather
Interesting--I've never heard of "dual lock"...what is it?
Jody
On Fri, 07 Jan 2000 02:24:11 GMT, hud...@earthlink.net (Richard)
wrote:
>Just want to point out that the usual velcro and Dual-Lock are
>different things. They don't compare. If you want to put something
>on your pedalboard so that it stays down, and you're considering a
>velro-like solution, the Dual-Lock is what you want.
>
>Depending on how much you want, you can find it at Mouser Electronics:
>http://www.mouser.com
>
>They sell it by the roll.
>
>48th Street Custom Guitars in NYC is the only place I know that sells
>it by the foot. It's more expensive per unit foot that way, but if
>you only need a few feet of it then you'll spend less $$$.
Not A Speck Of Cereal
[] What did Howard Stern say in his movie:
[]
[] "The fate of all true geniuses is ultimately to be misunderstood"
I thought it was "If you have to wipe more than 3 times, you might as
well hop back in the shower".
Zachary Music
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
Anthony Robinson <ant...@stryder.net> wrote in message
news:853gqq$7r6$1...@nntp2.atl.mindspring.net...
>
> Zachary Music <in...@zacharymusic.com> wrote in message
> news:cg8d4.1084$S64....@nnrp1.uunet.ca...
> > You guys missed the point. You simply don't get it.
>
>
> I saw your guitars at your booth at the Philly Fall show back in
November..
> Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to try one.
How nice. I wish I remembered you. I talked to too many people to remember
everyone.
>
> I tell ya though, if you made them in all body styles instead of the 2 you
> offer, I bet more people would bite.
I will be possibly making other shapes, but they will be my own. I guess you
may not be used to the Z1 after constantly seeingFender shapes but if you
get visually used to my guitar it will be very appealing. It is to me. I
also like it because the shape of my design provides very good ballance and
comfort.
>
> If you made one that looked like a strat, I'd prolly go for that. I think
> that for around a grand, a totally hand-made guitar is a really good buy.
I
> know that you probably hate the idea of making anything that looks like a
> strat, but hey, that's what I've been weaned on, and that's what feels
> perfect to me.
I like the Strat as well. I finally bought an American Standard 3 years ago.
The neck is very nice, much nicer than my PRS wide/thick. I did some
modifications to it. Ballanced the pickup polepieces, made a new pickguard
to angle the pickups so the poles lined up with the strings and a few more
things. Its a good guitar. I would never make a Strat body though. If you
want a good Strat, buy a Fender or any of the immitators. If I had to
immitate anything else I would stop making guitars. If you want a Zachary,
you can only buy it from me.
>
> I would be ALL over a crazy wood strat like some of those I saw at your
> booth. I think the knots and stuff are pretty cool, and a different twist
on
> what has been the standard.
That is exactly what I am doing. You nailed it.
>
> But I will say that your attitude is a big time turnoff to someone who
plays
> machine-made, mass-produced guitars and has always found a few of them
that
> felt perfect. It's one thing to have a philosophy and present it, it's
> another thing to tell everyone else that their own philosophy sucks. As
far
> as I know, you are the only builder around right now with any sort of
> "presence" who builds entirely by hand. If I were you, I'd capitalize on
> that and be a little more flexible with your ideals and let your customers
> decide a bit more about what they want to play.
Its always been hard or virtually impossible to be a guitar builder who
wanted to be original. Its been somewhat easier for bass makers. This is why
we have countless guitar companies big and small who copy Fender or Gibson.
Ultimately the people we respect the most are great because they are
originals. Think of Leo Fender, Hendrix, the singer from AC/DC, Howard
Stern, EVH and the list goes on and on.
I have great respect for Steinberger and Parker that create something new.
Original creation is very God-like. But you have to stick your neck out and
take the risk that others will try to bring you down. It takes a tough
person to stand up to negativity and that's what I am doing. If others
decide to be rude for no reason I can be rude as well. Its not really in my
nature.
Yes, there are very few people doing what I am doing. And that is
unfortunate. If people were more supportive there would be a lot more real
guitar builders and the industry would be richer for it. I did not start
this post and I was not the one who was originally insulted. I have a whole
collection of good mass produced guitars which do the job but I found that
the handmade ones are without a doubt more satisfying. The saddest thing
about CNC is that it has equaled low end and high end guitars. Its at a
point now that if you pick up a cheap $300 guitar it will not be very
different from a $2000 CNC made guitar, less the AAAAA top. CNC has elevated
the low end in desirability and lowered the high end. My attitude is simply
a reflection to the reaction that was received by the person who started
this post. Just because someone dared say something positive about something
new does not mean that he should be personally insulted.
>
> Just my opinion..
>
> -Anthony
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Zachary Music
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
Richard <hud...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.12df24f08...@news.earthlink.net...
> According to my newsreader, agri...@pobox.com posted...
> > Yikes!
> >
> > I spent way too much time a couple of days ago typing a huge response
> > to Richard Huddleston, but I did not want to get into a flame war on
> > this topic, nor did I want to waste time on someone who so eagerly has
> > such a condescending disposition towards someone he disagrees with.
>
> Look, friend. If you like your guitar, I'm way happy for you.
>
> Yes, I own a Suhr, and I like it very much. I could not, however,
> give a rat's ass how John makes them.
Well you should. The way an instrument is made is directly related to how it
feels and sounds. Just ask Antonio Stradivarius.
Materials don't really matter I proved that with my Home Depot Pine guitar
and so did Taylor with their Pallet guitar as well as Bob Benedetto.
Also, John does not make them, his fancy machine does. And its made with
"handbuilt qualities" as John says. Assembling CNC machined parts anyone can
do, with a little practice that is.
>
> Being focused on how a guitar is made is kinda the wrong thing to care
> about, in my opinion. You may have a different opinion. The world
> still turns.
Why? Its all connected. If a guitar fells and sounds good, lets find out
why. If CNC machines add certain qualities to guitars that make me play and
sound better, I want to know about it.
>
> You are a True Believer in the supra-musical value of a handmade
> guitar. Like an Evangelical Christian, who holds that those not on
> Good side are, automatically, on the Bad side, you plug me into your
> world view and stuff me full of sentiments about the CNC machine:
John Suhr seems to believe the same thing. He just does not practice it. If
he did, it would take him several weeks or even months to make one guitar
and would feel and sound entirely different from your current guitar.
Wouldn't that be a shoker.
>
> > After viewing
> > his web page [and listening to his sound clips], it appears that he
> > owns a Suhr guitar, so he's clearly passionate about his pro-CNC
> > stance.
>
> I don't care about the CNC machine. Never seen one, and will die
> completely at peace if I never do.
This may be the root of our misunderstanding. Let me tell you what these
things are like. You can think of it as a completely automated fancy drill
press. Its about 10 feet by 10 feet, entirely enclosed in a glass case to
keep humans out and the chips in. You rough cut a piece of wood, position it
carefully on the bed, load the program, close the glass case and push the
button. The thing virtually comes alive. Its like a robot. You would swear
it has intelligence. It even changes its cutters on its own. The robotic arm
moves over to the collection of end mills, knows which one to chose, picks
it up and starts on the next operation. There are some that can do several
bodies or necks at the same time. When its all done you open the glass case
and remove your almost finished guitar. Its perfection and consistency are
remarkable. But that's not what we need as guitar players. Most of us
associate that with lifelessness and artificiality and a boring guitar.
>
> Indifference is not advocacy, you silly person.
>
> > Please notice that Richard intentionally did not address all of my
> > comments in my response and brushed them off as a "rant".
>
> I don't debate religion-like sentiments with people. It's a waste of
> time. You believe that how a guitar is made matters. Your arguments
> about the subject don't strike me as being particularly rational. I
> don't mean they're crazy. I mean they're emotion-based.
>
> Emotion-based arguments are rants, by definition.
If we have no emotions we are like that CNC machine, just robots. I am full
of emotions and you can feel it through my guitars. Wasn't it emotions that
made you buy your new Suhr in the first place? I can't wait to have my new
Zachary finished but if I keep writing to this NG I will never finish it.
>
> You are more than entitled to your views. I don't stand on corners
> and debate the Bhagavad Gita with Hare Krishnas, and I won't do the
> equivalent with...Zacharites.
Zacharites, I really like that, it sounds very biblical.
>
> > <...snipped things he said which I'll deliberately not address,
> > because life is too damned short to argue with people when it
> > won't change anything...do you like that better?>
>
> > P.S. Richard - your interpretation of "Agrionia" was incorrect, and
> > your implication that I dislike technology is also false. In a
> > professional context, I have done benefitted well from technology and
> > simply appreciate "the finer things". Peace.
>
> I was merely wondering if you used the 'agrios' (Greek) root to
> construct it. If so, 'agrionia' does not mean "the finer things."
>
> Agrios is, I believe, 'sour' in Spanish. That sort of rules a Spanish
> root out, as well.
>
> It's YOUR name, however--so it means whatever you want it to mean.
>
> --
> Disclaimer: This post simply contains some of my personal opinions.
> ObURL: http://home.earthlink.net/~huddler Updated: 12/30/1999
Zachary Music
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
Matthew Ivaliotes <lo...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:853pcd$oqs$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu...
> "Zachary Music" <in...@zacharymusic.com> writes:
> >Matthew Ivaliotes <lo...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
> >news:85347t$e3f$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu...
> >> "Zachary Music" <in...@zacharymusic.com> writes:
> >> >I think that his satisfaction made you all feel kind of stupid.
> >> That's kind of an egotistical assumption.
> >Obviously you have a hard time accepting that someone can build a better
> >guitar by hand with primitive tools in a small shop.
>
> Nope. Not at all. I have a hard time having it rammed down my throat as
> inevitable truth, and being called a moron because I won't take your word
> for it.
>
> I'm not 'worshipping' anything. I'm playing what I like. People do that.
>
> >served each year, right??
> >Its time to go to a higher level. Don't be afraid,
> >you may like fine food better, just try it. Don't be afraid.
>
> I'm not afraid of anything. You just haven't convinced me of anything, and
> I'm sure not going to order a guitar of yours based on your bragging.
>
> >Obviously you have never played a truly handcrafted guitar and you have
> >never played one of mine. It is really easy to make a crappy handcrafted
> >guitar. But if you do it right its magic.
>
> Get - Over - Yourself.
>
> John Gray has made hand-made guitars which have been loved and talked
> about in many places. He made a great guitar. A small shop *can* make a
> great guitar, and often does. But just because you don't use CNC does not
> make you inherently better.
>
> >Well it should matter. You are a guitar enthusiast, arn't you? Are you
that
> >disinterested? You may want to check out another newsgroup.
>
> I'm disinterested in big talk and sweeping condemnations of lots of great
> instruments which have made great music throughout the years. If your
> guitars end up in a local sho, I'll try one, if only for curiosity's sake.
> But if I don't like teh body, I'm sure you'll just call me afraid and
> 'addicted to McDonalds.'
>
> >Yes I am sure that there are a few others, not many. Who would be stupid
> >enough to do it this way anyway?
>
> Good question. Any chance John Suhr or Terry McInturff, both of whom are
> small builder who use CNC, both of whom at least posted here once, would
> answer this question?
Suhr copies Fender and McInturff copies PRS and no they don't build guitars,
their CNC machines do. Their public realtion skills may be better acording
to you but what else can they rely on. They don't have to promote
handcraftsmanship. They have an easier time than I, they can just go with
the flow. I must go against the flow, since the flow is not going my way.
Have you ever tried to go against the current. Or to piss against the wind.
It aint easy.
>
> >This is what the "smart guitar builders" do. They contract CNC people
like
> >Wormoth or countless others to build them bodies and necks. They then
send
> >these parts to another company that just paints them. When the finished
> >bodies and necks arrive they take the hardware and assemble the guitar.
>
> Who does this? Anderson? Tyler? Hamer? PRS? G&L? Alembic? Modulus?
> Suhr? McInturff? Grosh? Klein? Brian Moore? Who exactly does this?
All of the above unfortunately. Most of these guys have their own CNC
machines some of the smaller companies like Sadowski use Wormoth.
It seems like the more guitars you guys buy from them the more CNC machines
they buy.
>
> >Usually a fender style guitar works the best. No creativity involved, who
> >need it right?
>
> Ironically, I don't own a single Fender copy. Not a one.
It doesn't matter what you like. Fender lends itself the best to CNC
copycats. Its the easiest to do.
>
> >They are true guitar builders, aren't they. But who cares right? They
sure
> >do, they have fooled you. "Keep them stupid and they will love you". Is't
> >that what all dictators say?
>
> Get OVER yourself, please.
>
> >Wow, YOU can even do that. Anyone can. These are the guitar companies
that
> >most of you praise. I don't want to mention any names, just look at your
> >guitar headstocks.
>
> Name names. Put up or shut up. Who builds their guitars as you describe
> above.
You have just named them above. And you did a good job too.
>
> >I am doing it the hard way my fried. It is virtually
> >impossible for someone to build a guitars by hand the way I do, sell it
for
> >$1000 and still make some money at it. The secret is in the design.
>
> Uh huh.
I am glad you understand. My design is ingenius in that a smuck can build
such a guitar with just simple tools in a relatively short time. I can build
you a guitar in a week. This is unheard of in an entirely hand made guitar.
Check out the Millennium guitar. I built that during the holidays and I had
the flue.
>
> >I am forcing you to think and thats good.
>
> Oh you've *got* to be kidding. yes, you've just compelled me beyond my
> will.
>
> Honest appreciation here:
> I *like* the fact that you're going out on your own and building guitars.
> Building guitars is good. I like that you're using a unique design of
> your own. Unique designs are good. I wish you nothing but success, and I
> genuinely will give your stuff a try should I ever see one. But your
> tonelier-than-thou act is going to cost you a lot more customers than it
> buys.
Thanks for the support, I really appreciate it. I hope we meet up at a
guitar show sometime. But they are so expensive to exhibit at. Forget about
my tonelier-than-thou attitude I am not selling myself, my wife has to put
up with me and no one else. I am actually a really good guy if you only knew
me. I can only have a maximum of 4 customers a month and I am sure that I
can find 4 people that agree with me out of 250 million people. If not, I
will just make the guitars for myself.
David Fosnocht
"Zachary Music" <in...@zacharymusic.com> writes:
>
> Obviously you have a hard time accepting that someone can build a better
> guitar by hand with primitive tools in a small shop.
> It would make me feel stupid as
> well if I was in your position.
> To suggest that I may have written the reviews myself is very stupid.
> They sure do, they have fooled you. "Keep them stupid and they will love
you
I don't know about your guitars, but you really need to work on your
customer relation skills.
John Huff
ЯеgюоюЛ mес
>I've gotten everything together for my pedalboard except some good
>velcro-3M stuff is what you pedal guys are using, right?
Try the fabric section at Walmart. They got all you want...
ЯеgюоюЛ mес
> To accept the Zachary philosophy would create too much cognitive dissonance
> for you.
Bell peppers do that to me too.
ЯеgюоюЛ mес
Richard
different things. They don't compare. If you want to put something
on your pedalboard so that it stays down, and you're considering a
velro-like solution, the Dual-Lock is what you want.
Depending on how much you want, you can find it at Mouser Electronics:
http://www.mouser.com
They sell it by the roll.
48th Street Custom Guitars in NYC is the only place I know that sells
it by the foot. It's more expensive per unit foot that way, but if
you only need a few feet of it then you'll spend less $$$.
--
John Huff
Thanks guys, I'll go take a look tomorrow.
Daniel
ЯеgюоюЛ mес
<jod...@freenet.tlh.fl.us> wrote:
>
>Interesting--I've never heard of "dual lock"...what is it?
>
> Jody
The 3M version of Velcro ;-)
Richard
>
> Interesting--I've never heard of "dual lock"...what is it?
>
> Jody
Velco on steriods. Seriously.
3M has a web site, and I believe I've seen a description of it there.
Richard
>
> I spent way too much time a couple of days ago typing a huge response
> to Richard Huddleston, but I did not want to get into a flame war on
> this topic, nor did I want to waste time on someone who so eagerly has
> such a condescending disposition towards someone he disagrees with.
Look, friend. If you like your guitar, I'm way happy for you.
Yes, I own a Suhr, and I like it very much. I could not, however,
give a rat's ass how John makes them.
Being focused on how a guitar is made is kinda the wrong thing to care
about, in my opinion. You may have a different opinion. The world
still turns.
You are a True Believer in the supra-musical value of a handmade
guitar. Like an Evangelical Christian, who holds that those not on
Good side are, automatically, on the Bad side, you plug me into your
world view and stuff me full of sentiments about the CNC machine:
> After viewing
> his web page [and listening to his sound clips], it appears that he
> owns a Suhr guitar, so he's clearly passionate about his pro-CNC
> stance.
I don't care about the CNC machine. Never seen one, and will die
completely at peace if I never do.
Indifference is not advocacy, you silly person.
> Please notice that Richard intentionally did not address all of my
> comments in my response and brushed them off as a "rant".
I don't debate religion-like sentiments with people. It's a waste of
time. You believe that how a guitar is made matters. Your arguments
about the subject don't strike me as being particularly rational. I
don't mean they're crazy. I mean they're emotion-based.
Emotion-based arguments are rants, by definition.
You are more than entitled to your views. I don't stand on corners
and debate the Bhagavad Gita with Hare Krishnas, and I won't do the
equivalent with...Zacharites.
> <...snipped things he said which I'll deliberately not address,
> because life is too damned short to argue with people when it
> won't change anything...do you like that better?>
> P.S. Richard - your interpretation of "Agrionia" was incorrect, and
> your implication that I dislike technology is also false. In a
> professional context, I have done benefitted well from technology and
> simply appreciate "the finer things". Peace.
I was merely wondering if you used the 'agrios' (Greek) root to
construct it. If so, 'agrionia' does not mean "the finer things."
Agrios is, I believe, 'sour' in Spanish. That sort of rules a Spanish
root out, as well.
It's YOUR name, however--so it means whatever you want it to mean.
--
John Huff
hud...@earthlink.net (Richard) writes:
>
>Just want to point out that the usual velcro and Dual-Lock are
>different things. They don't compare.
Did not know that...but I heard the dual-lock was the way to go.
If you want to put something
>on your pedalboard so that it stays down, and you're considering a
>velro-like solution,
Bingo.
>Depending on how much you want, you can find it at Mouser Electronics:
>http://www.mouser.com
>
>They sell it by the roll.
>
>48th Street Custom Guitars in NYC is the only place I know that sells
>it by the foot.
Thanks-I just checked my current Mouser cat and they sell it by the
foot as well-the black stuff is $3 and some change a foot, the clear is
more.
This board is coming together real nice...thanks again to those who
replied.
Every once in a while the NG is good for sumthin!
Daniel
Matthew Ivaliotes
>Matthew Ivaliotes <lo...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
>news:85347t$e3f$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu...
>> "Zachary Music" <in...@zacharymusic.com> writes:
>> >I think that his satisfaction made you all feel kind of stupid.
>> That's kind of an egotistical assumption.
>guitar by hand with primitive tools in a small shop.
Nope. Not at all. I have a hard time having it rammed down my throat as
>This is what the "smart guitar builders" do. They contract CNC people like
>Wormoth or countless others to build them bodies and necks. They then send
>these parts to another company that just paints them. When the finished
>bodies and necks arrive they take the hardware and assemble the guitar.
Who does this? Anderson? Tyler? Hamer? PRS? G&L? Alembic? Modulus?
Suhr? McInturff? Grosh? Klein? Brian Moore? Who exactly does this?
>Usually a fender style guitar works the best. No creativity involved, who
>need it right?
Ironically, I don't own a single Fender copy. Not a one.
>They are true guitar builders, aren't they. But who cares right? They sure
>do, they have fooled you. "Keep them stupid and they will love you". Is't
>that what all dictators say?
Get OVER yourself, please.
>Wow, YOU can even do that. Anyone can. These are the guitar companies that
>most of you praise. I don't want to mention any names, just look at your
>guitar headstocks.
Name names. Put up or shut up. Who builds their guitars as you describe
above.
>I am doing it the hard way my fried. It is virtually
>impossible for someone to build a guitars by hand the way I do, sell it for
>$1000 and still make some money at it. The secret is in the design.
Uh huh.
>I am forcing you to think and thats good.
Oh you've *got* to be kidding. yes, you've just compelled me beyond my
will.
Honest appreciation here:
I *like* the fact that you're going out on your own and building guitars.
Building guitars is good. I like that you're using a unique design of
your own. Unique designs are good. I wish you nothing but success, and I
genuinely will give your stuff a try should I ever see one. But your
tonelier-than-thou act is going to cost you a lot more customers than it
buys.
Matt I.
speaking only for myself
John Huff
>> Interesting--I've never heard of "dual lock"...what is it?
>>
>> Jody
>
>Velco on steriods. Seriously.
>
>3M has a web site, and I believe I've seen a description of it there.
>
According to the info in my Mouser catalog, it is '5x stronger than
conventional hook and loop', and there is 'audible snap when secure'
Daniel
Matthew Ivaliotes
>I will be possibly making other shapes, but they will be my own. I guess you
>may not be used to the Z1 after constantly seeingFender shapes but if you
>get visually used to my guitar it will be very appealing.
This is not a fact. I still can't be knocked out by the look of any
Start. Not a one. Don't like the pickguard. Not everyone who disagrees
with your aesthetic sense of shape is brainwashed, you know.
>It is to me.
And that is a perfectly valid statement. I'm sure others agree.
>I also like it because the shape of my design provides very good ballance
>and comfort.
Comfort also being subjective. I know a guy who thinks nothing is more
comfy than a Tele. I can think of few things less comfy to me.
>Its always been hard or virtually impossible to be a guitar builder who
>wanted to be original. Its been somewhat easier for bass makers.
Guitarists are indeed known for being more hooked to tradition.
Interesting, that. But I never bought into it.
>I have great respect for Steinberger and Parker that create something new.
As do I.
>Original creation is very God-like.
Would that explain the holier-than-thou approach?
Yeah, and musician types would know nothing about that. :)
>The saddest thing
>about CNC is that it has equaled low end and high end guitars. Its at a
>point now that if you pick up a cheap $300 guitar it will not be very
>different from a $2000 CNC made guitar, less the AAAAA top. CNC has elevated
>the low end in desirability and lowered the high end.
How? You should be able to explain in details how a part done by a
machine controlled by a human program should be orders of magnitude worse
than one controlled by a human hand. What does the machine do wrong,
exactly? I'd like to email folks like McInturff with the answer.
>My attitude is simply
>a reflection to the reaction that was received by the person who started
>this post. Just because someone dared say something positive about something
I'm agreed on that last post, but your attitude reflecting that isn't good
for your PR. You'd get more flies with honey.
Matt I.
spekaing only for myself
Richard
> Thanks-I just checked my current Mouser cat and they sell it by the
> foot as well-the black stuff is $3 and some change a foot, the clear is
> more.
Cool! Didn't know that--thanks!
> This board is coming together real nice...thanks again to those who
> replied.
> Every once in a while the NG is good for sumthin!
Shhhh. Don't tell anybody.
Richard
> Richard <hud...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> > Look, friend. If you like your guitar, I'm way happy for you.
> >
> > Yes, I own a Suhr, and I like it very much. I could not, however,
> > give a rat's ass how John makes them.
>
> Well you should. The way an instrument is made is directly related
> to how it feels and sounds.
Well then, John Suhr is definitely doing the right thing by me.
Guitarists in NYC still talk glowingly about his setups, BTW.
> > Being focused on how a guitar is made is kinda the wrong thing to care
> > about, in my opinion. You may have a different opinion. The world
> > still turns.
>
> Why? Its all connected. If a guitar fells and sounds good, lets find out
> why. If CNC machines add certain qualities to guitars that make me play and
> sound better, I want to know about it.
You continue to fallaciously argue backwards.
Try this, instead: "If CNC machines do not subtract qualities from
guitars that prevent me from playing and sounding better if I buy said
guitars, why should I believe it's bad to use CNC machines?"
I'd like to think you're not being deliberately disingenuous when you
turn the arguement around that way.
> > You are a True Believer in the supra-musical value of a handmade
> > guitar. Like an Evangelical Christian, who holds that those not on
> > Good side are, automatically, on the Bad side, you plug me into your
> > world view and stuff me full of sentiments about the CNC machine:
>
> John Suhr seems to believe the same thing. He just does not practice it. If
> he did, it would take him several weeks or even months to make one guitar
> and would feel and sound entirely different from your current guitar.
> Wouldn't that be a shoker.
I happen to love the way this guitar feels and sounds, thank you. I
recently ordered another one, in fact, with John's beautiful '54 two-
tone finish and a maple neck. Hot cha!
> > > After viewing
> > > his web page [and listening to his sound clips], it appears that he
> > > owns a Suhr guitar, so he's clearly passionate about his pro-CNC
> > > stance.
> >
> > I don't care about the CNC machine. Never seen one, and will die
> > completely at peace if I never do.
>
> This may be the root of our misunderstanding. Let me tell you what these
> things are like. [...]
I'll bet you planned to bother me with your description. You didn't.
I've loved robots since I was a little boy.
CNC machines sound COOL AS HELL. I'm serious!
> You can think of it as a completely automated fancy drill
> press. Its about 10 feet by 10 feet, entirely enclosed in a glass case to
> keep humans out and the chips in. You rough cut a piece of wood, position it
> carefully on the bed, load the program, close the glass case and push the
> button. The thing virtually comes alive. Its like a robot. You would swear
> it has intelligence. It even changes its cutters on its own. The robotic arm
> moves over to the collection of end mills, knows which one to chose, picks
> it up and starts on the next operation. There are some that can do several
> bodies or necks at the same time. When its all done you open the glass case
> and remove your almost finished guitar. Its perfection and consistency are
> remarkable. But that's not what we need as guitar players. Most of us
> associate that with lifelessness and artificiality and a boring guitar.
Who's this "most of us" you're referring to?
> > Emotion-based arguments are rants, by definition.
>
> If we have no emotions we are like that CNC machine, just robots.
That does not compute. How can you reply to a statement about rants
with a statement about having no emotions?
> I am full of emotions and you can feel it through my guitars.
<Ahem>. Feeling YOUR emotions is not why I buy a guitar, friend.
> Wasn't it emotions that made you buy your new Suhr in the first place?
Desire? Sure. After playing one, I felt I'd never played a better
guitar in my life. Now I've got an ES-336 that plays really, really
well--and I've played one particular '54 Strat that had SOUND!--but
the Suhr is the best combination of sound and feel I've personally
ever held in my hands.
I could certainly get by with a MIM Strat done up with a little fixin'
though. I'm sure it could be set up to play and sound just fine. But
the Suhr just spoke to me when I played it.
Best of luck with your BUSINESS, Zach. Be well.
Carlginger
>From: hud...@earthlink.net (Richard)
>Date: Thu, 06 January 2000 09:24 PM EST
>Message-id: <MPG.12df194d6...@news.earthlink.net>
>
>Just want to point out that the usual velcro and Dual-Lock are
Agree, I used Dual Lock to hold my pedals down when I had my rack.
Holds really tight. I needed a crowbar when I had to remove the pedals!
Grey Feather
Cool. Maybe it'll work better than the stuff on my watchband that kept
letting go...
Jody
On Fri, 07 Jan 2000 03:16:29 GMT, hud...@earthlink.net (Richard)
wrote:
>According to my newsreader, jod...@freenet.tlh.fl.us posted...
>>
>> Interesting--I've never heard of "dual lock"...what is it?
>>
>> Jody
>
>Velco on steriods. Seriously.
>
>3M has a web site, and I believe I've seen a description of it there.
--**--
Ron Thompson
>
> Ron Thompson <thom...@tc.faa.gov> wrote in message
> news:387516...@tc.faa.gov..
> > Well, it's just hard to point at one guitar and call it "better" than any
> > other.
>
> Not really, unless all the guitars were mass produced the same way, painted
> with two gallons of car paint and don't exhibit any real originality.
Yes, it is hard. That's why there are guys that play teles and nothing else.
Guys that use strats and nothing else. Guys that use Les Pauls and nothing
else. See, you can't tell the Tele guy that the strat is better, and so on.
It doesn't really have anything to do with the production. It has to do with
the USE of the object. Each of us plays them differently, thru different
amps, with differing attacks, different bodies. I'm no luthier, but I can
assure you that when someone else uses my stuff, they don't sound like me,
and when I use someone elses stuff, I sound like me using someone elses stuff.
This ain't hard if you've been around guitars and amps and guitar players for
any length of time.
> My guitars are significantly different, so when you pick them up they are
> unmistakeable. Love then or hate them the will be different.
Right. Different. And different and better are not the same, conceptually or
contextually. If I hate yours, as you stated above, how is it better?
> > I don't think he offended anyone. He didn't offend me, I responded to his
> > review with no feelings of offense at all. If it appeared that way, well,
> > I apologize. It's good of you to offer such a generous return policy as
> > well.
> you didn't exactly seem too responsive to his claims.
His claims to LIKE the guitar are great. His claims that the guitar is "better"
are what I am not responsive to. I've seen bunches of guitars that were "better"
come and go, as have most people that have been around them any length of time.
> To accept the Zachary philosophy would create too much cognitive dissonance
> for you.
My realities are just fine, thank you.
> You would have to change your whole concept of guitars. I
> understand that this would be uncomfortable.
It isn't at all uncomfortable for me. My concept of guitars is actually fairly
strong, long-learned, and has used trying and trueing methods. You confuse
my STRENGTH with my weakness. I know my guitars, better than anyone. I know what
works for me, better than anyone. If I, or anyone else, does not accept yours
at face value as being "better", don't put it on me. These are guitars, after all.
> Sort of like making people belive that the earth is round.
Not at all.
> Galileo had the same problem I have. Didn't they run him out of town or worse?
You really need to work on yer self esteem there chief.
> > It's true. Probably a large majority of guitar players just want to Rock
> > And Roll with their guitars, not delve into Rocket Science and Physics. Too
> > distracting.
> Rocket science I know nothing about and it has nothing to do with guitars.
Ok. Rocket Science was an exaggeration of the knowledge needed to build one.
There's a pretty big difference between what is needed to build one, and what
is needed to know that a guitar works for me, or anyone else.
> But the more you know about your instrument the better player you will be.
Really? I would agree with that to a point.
> Why not have some interest beyond those three chords?
Which three chords? Are you, like a buncha other guys that have built guitars
along the way, associating the appreciation for your instruments with ones
ability to play? If so, what about all them guys that were putting on tape
all those sounds that everyone wants long before you were building them?
> A little curiosity makes for a smart boy.
Yes, yes it does. I'd suggest you invest a little curiosity in People Skills.
Boy.
> > I've seen your guitars. I touched one. Didn't play it. Wasn't for me.
> > I can't compare it to anything.
>
> Where did you touch one? I hope you are being truthful.
Philly Phall guitar show. You were back in the corner, near Jeff's Records, the
FINEst on-line boot source I know of. You weren't there, a young lady and child
were. My entourage and I stopped briefly. I recognized yer name from your earlier
postings here about your guitars. My attention was caught by the shapes of them.
I touched one, looked at it, noticed some things that immediately told me it wasn't
for me, and I balked at playing it. If the neck ain't right, I don't even want to
pick one up. Your neck isn't for me, plain and simple.
> He simply put the thing to the test and checked out the guitar to see if my
> theories were valid. And he agreed.
I have no doubt your theories are valid. I don't build guitars, so I'm not one
to dispute them anyway.
> Those two guitars were under a microscope since they felt that it was up to
> them to report to all you skeptics.
Because I personally don't use your guitars doesn't make me a skeptic. I rather
think it is because you don't build good Teles that you are a skeptic. It works
real good, both ways, like that.
< re CFMartin Tours, and the differences between what we saw >
> No, we went to the same place. You just weren't looking for the same things
> I was. Did you noticed that none of the workers talked to anyone.
I noticed a lot of talking. I talked to a lot of the workers. They all talked
back. Explaining what they were doing. Showing myself and the others how they
do their jobs. They talked to each other as well.
> Did you notice that it really was not an open tour. You could only go to certain
> places and you couldn't really ask the workers any questions.
I had a Behind The Lines Tour, meaning, behind those yellow lines on the floor
that they want you not to cross. I was free to talk to the workers, provided
they weren't in the middle of doing something that a distraction could be
dangerous. I wasn't allowed certain places, but then, nobody is. I don't expect
anyone to show me EVerything they do.
> I asked to see the fretting department and they said NO.
I watched a couple of guitars getting measured up, fretted, dressed.
Did you wear a Tshirt that said:
"I make guitars better than anyone and yours are crap"?
Coulda had something to do with it. Maybe.
> A luthier dude would be bored out of his brains working there.
Really?
> My wife or mother would have a much better time. They could be trained to do one task
> and they would do it very well. It is no place for a luthier dude. They did
> have on luthier dude there and he quite a few weeks before my tour. His name
> was Frank with and Italian last name. He now runs his own shop and gives
> guitar building courses. He may have been the one you talked to.
No, the luthier dude I spent a good deal of time with was named Dan, and he still
works there, and he will probably retire from there.
< regarding the use of CNC, hand work, etc >
> > I couldn't tell you how the cut the body, nor do I care. If it Rock And
> > Roll comes out of it, I don't care at all.
> You sound like you're not too hard to please. I sort of had the same
> attitude about women untill I met my foxy wife.
Yer a real stud there dude. Care to stay on your topic, which is supposed to
be your before now unknown ability to make guitars.
> > I can understand that, and since some of this was about some things that I
> > wrote, I wasn't trying to put the guy down. It's really really hard to convince
> > guitar players that one PICK is better than the others, so you can see the
> > difficulty you face with yer guitars.
> Again, if I made Fender copies I would agree with you. It would be
> difficult. I don't make guitars like any other.
And if you made Fender copies, I might be convinced to actually spend some money
on one of yours and see if it makes Rock And Roll for me.
Then, I could probably manage to get at least a hundred other people interested
in your guitars.
We must agree to disagree then.
> > > Truth is that most of you will never have a chance to own a truly
> > > handmade guitar.
> >
> > Why not?
>
> Because there are not too many doing it at an affordable price.
Really?
> > Are you the only guy making guitars by hand for around a grand? Where are
> > you? We gotta guy right up in the next county making them by hand for about
> > 700 each, you can go WATCH him fer cryin out loud. Nice guitars too.
>
> You better go back and do watch him. He must be a magician. My material cost
> with the case is $500 alone. Now count the hours of labor. He must be a
> magician or he has the Warmoth phone number memorized.
So I am to believe you and your Galileo-like existence, while you just plain old
don't believe anyone else?
> > Cool. I hope you sell a bunch of them over there, here, everywhere.
>
> Thanks for the support.
If you'd tone it down a bit, you mighta got me to buy one. That mighta got some
more guys to buy one. That's the support you need.
--
rct
The opinions above are mine and mine alone.
Matthew Ivaliotes
>> Good question. Any chance John Suhr or Terry McInturff, both of whom are
>> small builder who use CNC, both of whom at least posted here once, would
>> answer this question?
>Suhr copies Fender and McInturff copies PRS and no they don't build guitars,
>their CNC machines do.
Actually, their CNC machines cut bodies and necks. People assemble and
finish them.
>Their public realtion skills may be better acording
>to you but what else can they rely on.
I dunno...results? Great sounding guitars? You know, ones that
them dumb, inconsequential 'players' like?
>Have you ever tried to go against the current. Or to piss against the wind.
>It aint easy.
You're making it that way. You could just promote your guitars for what
they are, and leave everyone else out of it. Instead, you feel the need
to slagf the living hell out of every other manufacturer and act as though
you are the lone divinely ordained creator of Truly Good Guitars.
Leave them out of it. Say you hand-make a guitar for a grand. Say you
think they sound great for many uses. Then let people decide. But you
*make* it about pissing against the wind when you feel the need to rip
everything that involves a machine in the production, and I don't feel an
ounce of pity for you.
>> >This is what the "smart guitar builders" do. They contract CNC people
>like
>> >Wormoth or countless others to build them bodies and necks. They then
>send
>> >these parts to another company that just paints them. When the finished
>> >bodies and necks arrive they take the hardware and assemble the guitar.
>>
>> Who does this? Anderson? Tyler? Hamer? PRS? G&L? Alembic? Modulus?
>> Suhr? McInturff? Grosh? Klein? Brian Moore? Who exactly does this?
>All of the above unfortunately. Most of these guys have their own CNC
>machines some of the smaller companies like Sadowski use Wormoth.
Those sentences don't computer. Either they all 'contract CNC people'
buil dbuild their necks, or they don't. If they own their own machines,
they *don't* do that. Prove to me that all of the companies I listed do
AS YOU STATE ABOVE. John Suhr and Don Grosh do not buy parts from
Warmoth, assemble them, and send them someplace else for finishing.
That's simply not ture. I was calling you on your exaggeration.
>It seems like the more guitars you guys buy from them the more CNC machines
>they buy.
Actually, it seems the more CNC machines they buy, the more guitars we
buy. Lots of PRS nuts like the newer stuff as much or better than the
stuff they made pre-CNC. No, really. It's a topic of much discussion
amongst them.
>> Ironically, I don't own a single Fender copy. Not a one.
>It doesn't matter what you like.
Actually, it does, which was my point. We, as guitar players, pick what
we like. I don't want a Strat, so it doesn't matter if 9000 manufacturers
find them easy to copy. I still don't want a Strat. And if I don't like
the body sahpe or neck of one of your guitars, guess what? That is a
differenr manifestation of the same thing. We call it 'personal
preference.'
>> Name names. Put up or shut up. Who builds their guitars as you describe
>> above.
>You have just named them above. And you did a good job too.
If you're saying all of the shops above buy bodies and necks from outside
suppliers, assemble them, and send them elsewhere to be finished, you're
lying or uninformed. THAT is what you described above. I *know* they all
use CNC.
>I am glad you understand. My design is ingenius in that a smuck can build
>such a guitar with just simple tools in a relatively short time. I can
>build you a guitar in a week. This is unheard of in an entirely hand made
>guitar. Check out the Millennium guitar. I built that during the holidays
>and I had the flue.
So what you're doing is really easy...yet requires the skilled hand of an
expert. OK.
>Thanks for the support, I really appreciate it. I hope we meet up at a
>guitar show sometime. But they are so expensive to exhibit at.
I might have typed 'sho' and implied show when I meant shop. I don't tend
to visit the shows a whole lot, as the carnival barker mentality and
vintage frienzy get old fast.
>Forget about
>my tonelier-than-thou attitude I am not selling myself, my wife has to put
>up with me and no one else. I am actually a really good guy if you only knew
>me. I can only have a maximum of 4 customers a month and I am sure that I
>can find 4 people that agree with me out of 250 million people. If not, I
>will just make the guitars for myself.
So be it. Sounds liek fun. Just accept the notion that someone else can
genuinely like the guitar theu have without being a brainwashed drone, and
you'll be fine from the whoel PR perspective.
Tony Kennedy
can
> > report exactly the opposite of what you experienced.
>
> No, we went to the same place. You just weren't looking for the same
things
> notice that it really was not an open tour. You could only go to certain
see
> the fretting department and they said NO.
> >
Hmm... I've done the tour too. I talked to several of the workers. I
talked to one of the repairmen for about 15 minutes about a Martin Tenor
that I have. We had to 'stay within the lines' but we saw all of the
departments. Martin doesn't have a 'tour guide' per say. They seem to just
draft someone from the floor. You probably got a lousy one.
I was surprised that only a very few of the people there could do all the
steps. And those were the repairmen who had to know how to do all of it.
Tony
John Huff
remove from time to time-hope its not too much of a pain!
Everything else runs off the pedal power, they can stay on as long as
they work.
Daniel
>
>
Zachary Music
some work done. But I don't mind taking the time you seem like good guy,
just a bit confused.
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
Matthew Ivaliotes <lo...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:8551o8$2u9$1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu...
> "Zachary Music" <in...@zacharymusic.com> writes:
>
> >> Good question. Any chance John Suhr or Terry McInturff, both of whom
are
> >> small builder who use CNC, both of whom at least posted here once,
would
> >> answer this question?
> >Suhr copies Fender and McInturff copies PRS and no they don't build
guitars,
> >their CNC machines do.
>
> Actually, their CNC machines cut bodies and necks. People assemble and
> finish them.
You are absolutely right. They haven't invented a robot yet that will do it
all from start to finish. When you have computer cut parts assembling them
is no sweat. It goes together like a kids toy. You say people assemble them.
I would like to see Terry and John do at least that. Instead of doing all
the PR and paperwork.
>
> >Their public realtion skills may be better acording
> >to you but what else can they rely on.
>
> I dunno...results? Great sounding guitars? You know, ones that
> them dumb, inconsequential 'players' like?
I never called you that. We are all inconsequential after all, its a hobby
for most of us isn't it? It doesn't matter how famous you are as long as you
are having fun. Come to think of it I havn't played for days, been too busy.
>
> >Have you ever tried to go against the current. Or to piss against the
wind.
> >It aint easy.
>
> You're making it that way. You could just promote your guitars for what
> they are, and leave everyone else out of it. Instead, you feel the need
> to slagf the living hell out of every other manufacturer and act as though
> you are the lone divinely ordained creator of Truly Good Guitars.
Ah. You are making me blush. Its fun to knock others when they are trying to
pull the wool over your eyes. It has come down to who has the fanciest
machine, shiniest plastic paint job, and the most figured mable. To me that
is not what guitars are all about. Instead they should be bragging about
their handskills and innovations. I am sure there are some extremely
talanted guitar builders out there, much better than I, if only they would
unplug their machines.
>
> Leave them out of it. Say you hand-make a guitar for a grand. Say you
> think they sound great for many uses. Then let people decide. But you
> *make* it about pissing against the wind when you feel the need to rip
> everything that involves a machine in the production, and I don't feel an
> ounce of pity for you.
I don't need you to feel sorry for me, its more fun to swim against the
current. It is not really hard to compete aginst any of these guys.
Competition has nothing to do with no. of guitars sold, its a matter of
principle. If I went along with these guys I would just be following them
and following anyone is not within my character. I would rather reinvent
something instead of learning how to do it like the other guy.
>
> >> >This is what the "smart guitar builders" do. They contract CNC people
> >like
> >> >Wormoth or countless others to build them bodies and necks. They then
> >send
> >> >these parts to another company that just paints them. When the
finished
> >> >bodies and necks arrive they take the hardware and assemble the
guitar.
> >>
> >> Who does this? Anderson? Tyler? Hamer? PRS? G&L? Alembic?
Modulus?
> >> Suhr? McInturff? Grosh? Klein? Brian Moore? Who exactly does this?
> >All of the above unfortunately. Most of these guys have their own CNC
> >machines some of the smaller companies like Sadowski use Wormoth.
>
> Those sentences don't computer. Either they all 'contract CNC people'
> buil dbuild their necks, or they don't. If they own their own machines,
> they *don't* do that. Prove to me that all of the companies I listed do
> AS YOU STATE ABOVE. John Suhr and Don Grosh do not buy parts from
> Warmoth, assemble them, and send them someplace else for finishing.
> That's simply not ture. I was calling you on your exaggeration.
Ok, here is how it works. I am surprised you didn't understand. The smaller
companies buy their CNC parts from other companies and have these parts
painted by another company as well. The more guitars you guys buy from them
the more clout they have with the banks. They get a loan for $150,000 and
then they buy their own CNC machine and they may or may not establish their
own paint fascilities.
I hope I don't sell too many guitars because I may fall into temptation as
well. No, just kidding.
>
> >It seems like the more guitars you guys buy from them the more CNC
machines
> >they buy.
>
> Actually, it seems the more CNC machines they buy, the more guitars we
> buy. Lots of PRS nuts like the newer stuff as much or better than the
> stuff they made pre-CNC. No, really. It's a topic of much discussion
> amongst them.
You got it. Its a trap. The key word is Quantity. Once you set the cookie
cutter up, it just goes, 24 hours a day if you like. All that's left to do
is to brainwash the market and make them believe that its as good as
handcrafting.
>
> >> Ironically, I don't own a single Fender copy. Not a one.
> >It doesn't matter what you like.
Suhr guitars are Fender copies, so are Anderson. I don't know if you own one
or not.
>
> Actually, it does, which was my point. We, as guitar players, pick what
> we like. I don't want a Strat, so it doesn't matter if 9000 manufacturers
> find them easy to copy. I still don't want a Strat. And if I don't like
> the body sahpe or neck of one of your guitars, guess what? That is a
> differenr manifestation of the same thing. We call it 'personal
> preference.'
Yes, but don't forget, I can make a neck that you will like. I am not bound
by computer programs. If I wish I can sculpt it the way you like.
These other guys can only give you what comes off the machine and Joe Blow
down the street will have the same guitar as you do.
>
> >> Name names. Put up or shut up. Who builds their guitars as you
describe
> >> above.
> >You have just named them above. And you did a good job too.
>
> If you're saying all of the shops above buy bodies and necks from outside
> suppliers, assemble them, and send them elsewhere to be finished, you're
> lying or uninformed. THAT is what you described above. I *know* they all
> use CNC.
No, I don't lie. I will repeat. It does not matter if they produce their
components in house or if they buy them from other manufacturers. That is
irrelevant. The more successful they are the more they can afford to do in
house. But its all made the same way, by machine and not people.
>
> >I am glad you understand. My design is ingenius in that a smuck can build
> >such a guitar with just simple tools in a relatively short time. I can
> >build you a guitar in a week. This is unheard of in an entirely hand made
> >guitar. Check out the Millennium guitar. I built that during the holidays
> >and I had the flue.
>
> So what you're doing is really easy...yet requires the skilled hand of an
> expert. OK.
No its not easy at all, my design has just made it possible. It made it
possible for me to make a handcrafted guitar and still sell it for an
affordable price of $1000 with a nice custom case.
>
> >Thanks for the support, I really appreciate it. I hope we meet up at a
> >guitar show sometime. But they are so expensive to exhibit at.
>
> I might have typed 'sho' and implied show when I meant shop. I don't tend
> to visit the shows a whole lot, as the carnival barker mentality and
> vintage frienzy get old fast.
I agree with you. I will go to the NAMM show in LA but just to look at the
hot chicks. There is silicone everywhere.
>
> >Forget about
> >my tonelier-than-thou attitude I am not selling myself, my wife has to
put
> >up with me and no one else. I am actually a really good guy if you only
knew
> >me. I can only have a maximum of 4 customers a month and I am sure that I
> >can find 4 people that agree with me out of 250 million people. If not, I
> >will just make the guitars for myself.
>
> So be it. Sounds liek fun. Just accept the notion that someone else can
> genuinely like the guitar theu have without being a brainwashed drone, and
> you'll be fine from the whoel PR perspective.
OK, but we really should end this thread, we beat this topic to death.
Matthew Ivaliotes
>Ok, I will explain things to you one last time and then I really have to get
>some work done. But I don't mind taking the time you seem like good guy,
>just a bit confused.
I didn't ask for an explanation. I called you on a misstatement.
>You are absolutely right. They haven't invented a robot yet that will do it
>all from start to finish. When you have computer cut parts assembling them
>is no sweat. It goes together like a kids toy. You say people assemble them.
>I would like to see Terry and John do at least that. Instead of doing all
>the PR and paperwork.
Hey John, Terry: you guys do none of the work? This expert who knows
better says no.
>It doesn't matter how famous you are as long as you
>are having fun. Come to think of it I havn't played for days, been too busy.
Then lighten the hell up.
>Ah. You are making me blush. Its fun to knock others when they are trying to
>pull the wool over your eyes.
But they aren't. They're giving me what I like. Which you aren't.
>It has come down to who has the fanciest
>machine, shiniest plastic paint job, and the most figured mable. To me that
>is not what guitars are all about. Instead they should be bragging about
>their handskills and innovations. I am sure there are some extremely
>talanted guitar builders out there, much better than I, if only they would
>unplug their machines.
Yes, because for some reason still unsubstantiated by you, the use of a
machine is evil and destroys everything. None of your tools are *power*
tools, are they? And I hope you only buy from wood mills who cut the
planks using hand saws.
>I don't need you to feel sorry for me, its more fun to swim against the
>current.
It's not as epic as that. You're not an iconoclast. You're just a random
guy who likes making guitars. It's not a revolution. It's been done. To
death.
>It is not really hard to compete aginst any of these guys.
>Competition has nothing to do with no. of guitars sold, its a matter of
>principle.
If you say so, sure. No, sincerely. You make your own goal. We make
ours. SO shut up about everyone else's guitar sucking for a change.
>I would rather reinvent
>something instead of learning how to do it like the other guy.
And maybe one day, you will reinvent something.
>Ok, here is how it works. I am surprised you didn't understand.
I understood what you wrote. You might not have wrote what you meant.
>The smaller
>companies buy their CNC parts from other companies and have these parts
>painted by another company as well. The more guitars you guys buy from them
>the more clout they have with the banks. They get a loan for $150,000 and
>then they buy their own CNC machine and they may or may not establish their
>own paint fascilities.
I got 5 bucks that says Terry McInturff didn't outsource his necks or his
painting. I got 5 more than says Suhr didn't do it, either. I don't think
you can establish it about *any* of the smaller companies I list. Since
you're the one making the accusation, the burden of proof rests with you.
I personally think you've believe it, but out of a paranoid desire to be
the rebel.
>You got it. Its a trap. The key word is Quantity. Once you set the cookie
>cutter up, it just goes, 24 hours a day if you like. All that's left to do
>is to brainwash the market and make them believe that its as good as
>handcrafting.
You missed the point completely. but that dosn't surprise me, since you
have titanium-grade blinders on. My point: I *like* a 1997 PRS better
than a 1987. The later one used CNC, the earlier did not. No one brain
washed me, and you are *not* some superior illuminati who can dispense
who is and is not brainwashed.
I reiterate that you need to get over yourself.
>Suhr guitars are Fender copies, so are Anderson. I don't know if you own one
>or not.
Nope.
>Yes, but don't forget, I can make a neck that you will like.
So can John Suhr.
>I am not bound by computer programs. If I wish I can sculpt it the way
>you like.
So can Suhr. He's done it for some people here. Cut the neck to their
spec. CNC machines don't come out of the box with three available neck
profiles, you know.
>> If you're saying all of the shops above buy bodies and necks from outside
>> suppliers, assemble them, and send them elsewhere to be finished, you're
>> lying or uninformed. THAT is what you described above. I *know* they all
>> use CNC.
>No, I don't lie.
You're backpedaling. I *knew* they used machines. I said so. But you
insisted that companies were outsourcing parts and sending guitars
elsewhere to be painted.
>I will repeat. It does not matter if they produce their
>components in house or if they buy them from other manufacturers. That is
>irrelevant. The more successful they are the more they can afford to do in
>house. But its all made the same way, by machine and not people.
And you've yet to provide any evidence for the notion that this actually
makes a bad guitar. Nothing at all to weigh agains the decades of
wonderful recordings made with the instruments you call 'sterile' of every
brand.
>No its not easy at all, my design has just made it possible. It made it
>possible for me to make a handcrafted guitar and still sell it for an
>affordable price of $1000 with a nice custom case.
Others have done it. I've seen it. I've met them. Your design didn't
make it possible.
>OK, but we really should end this thread, we beat this topic to death.
There we're agreed.
John R. Cooper
<in...@zacharymusic.com> wrote:
>Not really, unless all the guitars were mass produced the same way, painted
>with two gallons of car paint and don't exhibit any real originality. My
>guitars are significantly different, so when you pick them up they are
>unmistakeable. Love then or hate them the will be different.
Please explain again how this makes them sound better. Please
explain how this guarantees that they will feel better in my hands.
Please explain to me in acoustical, scientific, and ergonomic terms
why I would almost certainly like the sound and feel of a handmade
Zachary guitar over my favorite CNC-carved, low-wage-worker assembled
Gibson Les Paul Standard?
Exactly how does the smile on your face, no doubt ever-present when
you are building a guitar, make it sound better? Exactly how does the
manual carving process make it sound better? Perhaps the only way it
manifests is in the QC process your guitars go through after you build
them. You are, perhaps, willing to re-tweak any guitar you aren't
happy with after it is built. Perhaps you are willing to throw one
away completely if it doesn't measure up to your standards, whereas
Fender would never dream of doing such a thing. They would still send
a "dead" sounding guitar out the factory door, whereas you wouldn't.
Is this what you mean by having the right attitude toward guitar
making? The idea that handcrafting guitars on a one-by-one basis
motivates you to guarantee that every instrument sounds as good as it
possibly can? Quality control. Pride in workmanship = high quality.
That's the theory anyway, right?
But that still doesn't guarantee that I (or any particular
musician) will like the sound or feel of one of your guitars over a
stock Fender Strat or Gibson Les Paul. If you believe that it DOES
guarantee that for every musician on the planet, then I think you
really need to explain exactly what makes this so, in terms more
concrete than "you just can't beat a guitar made with the kind of love
and dedication a devoted luthier puts into a handmade instrument."
That is what I would call voodoo logic, and is equivalent to claiming
that your guitars are made with magic spells and alchemy.
Cheers,
- John
John R. Cooper
>Based on my experience, I believe that a guitar that has been
>completely hand made by a master luthier will be better in most ways
>to one that has been produced with the assistance of a computer
>assisted manufacturing process. I do not believe that this is a
>subjective statement.
Okay, if this is not a subjective statement, then please give us
objective data to back up this belief. Based on your experience you
are making a statement of fact, but are not providing any explanation
as to WHY a hand made instrument is better "in most ways" to one made
from CNC-carved parts. I, for one, need more evidence than the Fallacy
of Authority ("Because so-and-so expert agrees with me.") or the
Fallacy of Numbers ("Millions of people can't be wrong.")
Can ANY of these claims be supported with scientific explanations
and/or data?
>Again, I ask everyone to consider the most valuable production electric
>guitars in history. These guitars are valued for their playability,
>tone, and feel. Name one that has been cut by a CNC router. I just
>can't think of any.
Let's try this logic exercise.
Let's imagine a human luthier with an extraordinary talent. He has
the ability to exactly duplicate, by hand, any particular guitar part
he has made in the past. Perfectly duplicate every curve, bend, and
surface to within a thousandth of an inch. Now if this luthier
lovingly produced a hundred guitars, all of them identical in shape
and form, only differing in wood choices, electronics and hardware,
paint colors, etc. would his guitars sound better or worse than
CNC-carved guitars? He is, in effect, a human CNC router. What
difference does this make, if any, in the sound and quality of his
guitars versus another luthier who can't be so precise?
Cheers,
- John
John R. Cooper
<in...@zacharymusic.com> wrote:
>and remove your almost finished guitar. Its perfection and consistency are
>remarkable. But that's not what we need as guitar players. Most of us
>associate that with lifelessness and artificiality and a boring guitar.
I'm curious exactly what the scientific basis is for this
association. To me, it sounds like an elitist myth intended to
perpetuate luddite distaste for mass-produced products that the
general public (the unwashed masses?) can afford.
The only time hand-carved instrument parts are going to be
inherently "better" than mass-produced parts is when they can be
custom-shaped exactly to the specifications of individual customers.
Even a Zachary guitar isn't made this way. A customer has to like the
Z1 shape, take it or leave it.
>If we have no emotions we are like that CNC machine, just robots. I am full
>of emotions and you can feel it through my guitars.
I would submit that a CNC machine has exactly the emotions
necessary to produce a superior product. It is tirelessly dedicated to
the noble virtues of accurate, precise, efficient carving. I would
only HOPE that the best, most devoted luthiers had enough love and
care for their craft that they could demonstrate an equal level of
accuracy, precision, and efficiency in their own carving.
If you want an instrument uniquely shaped, with unexpected, perhaps
quirky features, then the unpredictability of the "artist mentality"
inherent in most handcrafted products would probably serve your needs
better. But this prepensity to create unique results does not
guarantee a better SOUNDING guitar, or one that fits better into the
hands of a particular musician.
Cheers,
- John
Zachary Music
questioning the validity of the opinions expressed by my customer who bought
a Zachary guitar. I can understand why you are confused. I will try to
explain, but you must understand that many of these points can not easily be
explained. I am not as articulate as some but I will try my best.
We are dealing with two very important things which directly involve our
senses. How a guitar feels and how it sounds.
First of all your thinking is backwards.
If you reverse your thinking you will understand and the concept will become
evident to you.
A computerized machine is perfect, a human is not. No matter how talented
you are as a woodworker you will never be as perfect as that robot. You
might say, what's wrong with that? Isn't perfection an precision what we
want. My answer is NO.
Perfection in a guitar is not needed, in fact it is a detriment to a good
feeling instrument. We humans can associate more closely to variability,
inconsistency and imperfection. We also intuitively sense when something was
produced by a fellow living human. Playing an instrument is a visceral
experience. Art in general deals with crude and elemental emotions. Certain
things you can not explain intellectually. Usually something that is
absolutely perfect will not feel good in the hands of a human because it
does not have the very human quality of imperfection. This is something we
can't explain, we just know it, we feel it. This is the reason we like fine
art, fine cooking, and human creation in general. We are somehow aroused by
"earthy" qualities we can not always explain. You want to pin us down to
give you an absolute scientific explanation. Well we can't do that, we can't
put it into words, we just know it. When it comes to art 2+2 doesn't
necessarily equal 4. A digital amp does not sound completely natural and we
know it. Artificial materials and artificial workmanship is foreign to us
and uninviting.
We as humans are also drawn to natural things in the world around us. We
would much rather take a walk in the woods than on a concrete parking lot.
We feel better holding a tool with a wood handle than a tool with a plastic
handle. A leather steering wheel cover feels better than a vinyl one. We
relate to out natural world. Perfection in workmanship is NOT NATURAL and we
know it, if we admit it or not. A thick shiny polyurethane paint job on a
guitar is not natural and we know it. A perfect AAAAA figured maple top is
not natural either because most wood does not grow that way. It has to be
artificially matched and selected. Some wood is figured but a lot of it has
imperfections of all types. This is why consciously I use wood with natural
imperfections and blemishes, because that's what's real.
A thick plastic finish will prevent you from feeling the naturalness of the
material of the guitar, and your senses will know it. You essentially have
an instrument coated with a plastic layer. This takes away the feeling. In a
crude way its like a condom. A plastic finish will hold back the speaking
voice of the instrument and it will also prevent the player from "feeling"
the instrument. Psychologically there is a barrier between the player and
the instrument. All because the manufacturer wants to dazzle the buyer.
The best instruments in history were made by hand, either with hand or power
tools, it does not matter as long as every operation is guided by hand. The
goal is to build imperfection into that instrument any way you can. This is
very important. The hand is crucial for giving the instrument the
imperfection it needs to feel good.
So what I am trying to say is that the CNC machine is doing exactly the
opposite to what a good instrument needs. Most of the top players (unless
they have an endorsement contract) play vintage guitars. Why is that? These
players often talk about feel and tone. They are getting these qualities
from instruments that were made less than perfect in the first place
(pre-CNC technology) and they have gotten even more imperfect due to
considerable wear after 20,30 and 40 years.
Anyway, I do understand that this thinking is foreign to most people
regardless of how long you have played the guitar. This only occurred to me
a few years ago. All my guitars are based on this philosophy.
Like I said, much of this is hard to explain. Its not exact science and
that's what makes it special. Its not voodoo either, its not magic. It has
everything to do with human sensibility.
So please remember I am not trying to argue with anyone and if you don't
accept any of this, that's fine.
If my guitars are not for you, that's unfortunate buy I will accept it.
I just believe in this strongly and its the basis of my whole Zachary
Philosophy and the reason I build guitars.
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
John R. Cooper <jrco...@san.rrREMOVE.com> wrote in message
news:d18f7s4uln57255h5...@4ax.com...
John R. Cooper
<in...@zacharymusic.com> wrote:
>John,you have brought up some good points. You are responding to and also
>questioning the validity of the opinions expressed by my customer who bought
>a Zachary guitar. I can understand why you are confused. I will try to
>explain, but you must understand that many of these points can not easily be
>explained. I am not as articulate as some but I will try my best.
I hope I didn't come across as too antagonistic before. I am not at
all opposed to what you do, and in fact I applaud it (the handmaking
of guitars, not necessarily the evangelism). But I still question a
few of your premises and the conclusions you draw.
>Perfection in a guitar is not needed, in fact it is a detriment to a good
>feeling instrument. We humans can associate more closely to variability,
>inconsistency and imperfection. We also intuitively sense when something was
>produced by a fellow living human.
Can you substantiate that last sentence with any scientific
evidence? Suppose someone took one of your Z1 guitars, scanned it, and
made a CNC program for it. Now suppose they chose an unusual block of
wood (like you often do) and ran it through the router. You believe
that I would intuitively know which one was hand-carved and which one
was CNC-carved, even though the two guitar bodies are identical in
shape. In fact, you believe that I would be able to intuitively tell
BY SHAPE AND FEEL OF THE BARE WOOD BODY ALONE a vintage Strat from a
modern CNC-carved Strat, right?
I understand the principle you are describing, but I am not so
willing to agree that humans are as tuned in to these differences as
you claim.
>Certain
>things you can not explain intellectually. Usually something that is
>absolutely perfect will not feel good in the hands of a human because it
>does not have the very human quality of imperfection. This is something we
>can't explain, we just know it, we feel it.
I'm sorry but this is just an intellectual cop-out. I'm sure this
kind of handwaving appeals to many peoples' touchy-feely artist
sensibilities, but it doesn't help convince someone (like me) who
seeks an explanation beyond, "We just KNOW it, we just FEEL it."
>This is the reason we like fine
>art, fine cooking, and human creation in general. We are somehow aroused by
>"earthy" qualities we can not always explain.
I like fine cooking because it tastes good, regardless of how it is
prepared. I would enjoy looking at Michelangelo's David because it is
beautiful, regardless of whether I am looking at the original, or a
machine-made exact copy. In fact, I saw his Pieta in Rome and I don't
believe for one second that I could tell you whether or not it was a
machine duplicate. I doubt 99.9% of humanity could tell the difference
either.
>You want to pin us down to
>give you an absolute scientific explanation. Well we can't do that, we can't
>put it into words, we just know it.
I'm sorry, but capitulation like this isn't terribly helpful to me.
;-)
>When it comes to art 2+2 doesn't
>necessarily equal 4. A digital amp does not sound completely natural and we
>know it.
Really? I've heard both kinds of amps and I doubt I could tell you
which one sounds more "natural" to me. I doubt the average person on
the street could either. We can tell you which one sounds "fuzzier" or
"mellower" or "muddier" or whatever. But more "natural"? Add effects
and the ability to tell the difference goes right out the window. The
finely honed ear of a musician can detect these differences because
they know what to listen for. They have been conditioned over many
years of exposure to analog-vs-solid-state amp comparisons. It has
been beaten into their very being.
>We as humans are also drawn to natural things in the world around us. We
>would much rather take a walk in the woods than on a concrete parking lot.
>We feel better holding a tool with a wood handle than a tool with a plastic
>handle. A leather steering wheel cover feels better than a vinyl one. We
>relate to out natural world.
There are kinds of plastic that I like better than wood when it
comes to tool handles because they feel more solid and reliable to me.
I understand your humans-love-nature premise, but I think you
overstate the case quite a bit.
>A thick plastic finish will prevent you from feeling the naturalness of the
>material of the guitar, and your senses will know it. You essentially have
>an instrument coated with a plastic layer. This takes away the feeling. In a
>crude way its like a condom. A plastic finish will hold back the speaking
>voice of the instrument and it will also prevent the player from "feeling"
>the instrument. Psychologically there is a barrier between the player and
>the instrument. All because the manufacturer wants to dazzle the buyer.
Well, see, now you are getting close to something measurable. One
should be able to measure (with scientific instruments) the effect
that the polyurethane coating has on the "tone" generated.
Unfortunately, determining which sounds "better" is a subjective
judgement that can only be measured empirically, perhaps by a
double-blind "tone test" with (ideally) millions of ordinary people
voting which sounds "better" or "more natural" to them. Until then,
you are merely speculating and playing guessing games with human
psychology.
>The best instruments in history were made by hand, either with hand or power
>tools, it does not matter as long as every operation is guided by hand. The
>goal is to build imperfection into that instrument any way you can. This is
>very important. The hand is crucial for giving the instrument the
>imperfection it needs to feel good.
If, indeed, such imperfection does create a "better" instrument, or
even one that a musician will like more. The jury is still out on
this, for me anyway, because you have only re-stated your case without
providing any supporting explanation or evidence beyond "It just can't
be explained!"
>So what I am trying to say is that the CNC machine is doing exactly the
>opposite to what a good instrument needs. Most of the top players (unless
>they have an endorsement contract) play vintage guitars. Why is that? These
>players often talk about feel and tone. They are getting these qualities
>from instruments that were made less than perfect in the first place
>(pre-CNC technology) and they have gotten even more imperfect due to
>considerable wear after 20,30 and 40 years.
Well, I would submit that musicians are "brainwashed" (to use your
term) into valuing hand-made instruments out of devotion to tradition
and a desire to respect a dying craft. As we get further and further
away from the period when hand-made instruments were the ONLY kind of
instruments available, you will likely see this devotion
(brainwashing?) diminish in each generation of new musicians. I
postulate that if the older generations don't consciously pass on this
idea (like you are doing now), then new musicians won't have this bias
toward hand-made instruments.
You claim this preference is natural in humans, and I claim it
probably isn't. The fact that countless musicians are making good
music and enjoying doing it with machine-made instruments testifies
against the dying breed of artists whose cries of "man vs. machine!"
are being drowned out in the howling winds of industrial and social
progress.
You seem to believe that in order for humans to create art, their
tools must themselves be human-made works of art. I can only imagine
that art created on a computer (by a human) with illustration/paint
programs is not really art in your eyes since the tool (the computer)
was mass-produced by machines. Great literature can't possibly be
written unless transcribed onto hand-made paper with hand-crafted
quill pens. Great paintings can't be painted with mass-produced
brushes and paints, right? And obviously, great-sounding music can't
be played on machine-made instruments!
>Like I said, much of this is hard to explain. Its not exact science and
>that's what makes it special. Its not voodoo either, its not magic. It has
>everything to do with human sensibility.
I use the term "voodoo" to describe any phenomenon that can't be
explained rationally and scientifically. Remember "Voodoo Economics"?
It is simply a placeholder explanation for something which has no
explanation. If you can't explain the science behind the phenomenon
you claim to observe, then it might as well be magic forces at work.
"Human sensibility" isn't in any of my psychology textbooks. You
are wise, I think, in drawing upon psychology (a soft science to be
sure) for support in your claims since you are arguing issues of
physical perception and emotional response. But in order to make a
more compelling argument (to me anyway), you'd have to be more
informed in that discipline. I realize that you are a luthier and not
a psychologist, and as such, maybe an expert in that field could step
up to bat for you.
>So please remember I am not trying to argue with anyone and if you don't
>accept any of this, that's fine.
Well, I think you raise an interesting subject worthy of
discussion. You seem quite willing to evangelize your view publicly,
and I think you have to accept the skepticism and scorn that will
naturally follow. Clearly, you have the time and conviction to fire
the opening salvos, but do you have the time and conviction to keep
fighting for mindshare? If not you, then who else will?
>If my guitars are not for you, that's unfortunate buy I will accept it.
>I just believe in this strongly and its the basis of my whole Zachary
>Philosophy and the reason I build guitars.
Clearly you believe in it strongly. I only wish you could convince
me with explanations more useful than "It can't be explained. It can
only be felt." This is tantamount to religious faith in that you have
to believe in it ahead of time in order to "see" the truth of it. That
makes your philosophy VERY suspect in my view.
Cheers,
- John
Zachary Music
of my beliefs and to keep writing to this newsgroup.
All I know is that I have discovered something extraordinary and I and
several of my customers are simply trying to inform you of it. I do not want
to change your thinking, nor can I. If you, for whatever reason, are
determined not to accept any of my reasoning then you have psychological
motivations which only you know about and there is nothing I can do about
it.
I can not offer you scientific explanations. I get the feeling that you are
an atheist, since you don't believe anything which is not empirically
proven. I am not making a value judgement about you. I respect your choice
to think a certain way but I can't help to think that this alone will limit
you in many ways and will close off an important part of the world to you,
namely the spiritual world.
You are forgetting one important thing. Just because we can't explain
something in words and numbers does not mean that it does not exist. All the
great music you talk about was created by very spiritual people, from Bach
to Hendrix. If they ever questioned any of the forces inside their sold they
would have stop creating. Lets not dismiss emotion as voodoo. The reason
psychology is called a soft science is because it deals with very complex
issues. Love, hate etc. We simply can not measure many of these things, not
easily anyway. if all you have ever played is a machine made instrument then
you would not understand what I ma talking about. In my experience I kept
buying more and more expensive mass produced instruments without the
satisfaction I was looking for.
I want to talk to you simply as a guitar player who has played continuously
for 22 years and not as a business person selling instruments.
I am not being biased here. I have a large collection of machine made
guitars and when I pick up one of my own handmade pieces, its like a
different experience. I had this revelation after completing my first
guitar. The question I had was "why can't these high tech manufacturers make
a guitar that feels better than this thing I made on my kitchen table. I can
relate to the handmade instrument on a different level, a much deeper level.
These instruments feel a part of me as opposed to something foreign. My
instruments have a life of their own. By seeing tool marks in the piece and
feeling the inconsistencies you know that it came from the hands of a human.
You can relate to the instrument on a deeper level. This is what I can tell
you. Your human qualities will pick up and agree with the human qualities of
this instrument.
I disagree with you on another point. The more our lives get complicated by
technology the more we will gravitate toward more simple, natural, and human
creation. I strongly believe that humans can instinctually tell what is
natural and what is not. You can tell if something is created from emotion
and if something is not. Its a very strong instinct. You are trying to
remove emotion from the equation and dismissing emotion as a soft science. I
believe it has more value than you think.
I have a Line 6 Pod and Spider amps and they sound great but they are
definitely not natural and I know it. Built in, programmed nuances are not
the same as the real, natural and variable responsiveness of tubes. A
digital amp can only be made desirable to any extent if it is programmed to
sound natural. In effect its made to be imperfect. The problem is that it
will be imperfect the same way every time, where a tube will vary
differently in response each time you send signal through it. This is the
nuance that is needed to feel natural. Variability + imperfection.
If you are a scientist, the importance of imperfection in creation has some
merit. I think its an important concept that has been largely ignored.
Making things absolutely and positively perfect is not the way to go.
Although I know its everything the modern world has taught you to think.
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
John R. Cooper <jrco...@san.rrREMOVE.com> wrote in message
news:34ck7s05o5ehosj7k...@4ax.com...
John R. Cooper
<in...@zacharymusic.com> wrote:
>All I know is that I have discovered something extraordinary and I and
>several of my customers are simply trying to inform you of it. I do not want
>to change your thinking, nor can I. If you, for whatever reason, are
>determined not to accept any of my reasoning then you have psychological
>motivations which only you know about and there is nothing I can do about
>it.
I am determined to hold on to my own opinions until someone offers
compelling reasons and evidence that shifts them. Happens all the time
actually. I can't count the number of times a more informed individual
was able to change my thinking by giving me solid facts, rational
insights, and convincing data. Please don't make the mistake of
thinking I am utterly close-minded just because your view has failed
to convince.
[Perceptive comments about my atheistic nature snipped]
>You are forgetting one important thing. Just because we can't explain
>something in words and numbers does not mean that it does not exist.
Um, well, if you can't explain something in words and numbers then
it may also simply exist as a figment of your imagination and I have
little reason to believe otherwise. Anecdotal evidence and spiritual
leanings are going to be a hard sell to ordinary people contemplating
$1500 expenditures.
>I disagree with you on another point. The more our lives get complicated by
>technology the more we will gravitate toward more simple, natural, and human
>creation. I strongly believe that humans can instinctually tell what is
>natural and what is not. You can tell if something is created from emotion
>and if something is not. Its a very strong instinct. You are trying to
>remove emotion from the equation and dismissing emotion as a soft science. I
>believe it has more value than you think.
I know what you believe. Unfortunately, I am only interested in
learning what you can prove. Or at the very least, what you can back
up with SOME kind of concrete evidence (statistics, academic studies,
psychological principles, credible surveys, etc.) Otherwise you are
speculating and guessing and trying to pass off sincerity as
authority.
As an aside, if we are going to venture into the nebulous area of
emotional and psychological forces that shade perception, then we must
also acknowledge the musician who, for instance, plays better whenever
he sees the name "Gibson" on the headstock of his instrument simply
because (a) he has convinced himself he sounds better on such
instruments and (b) he is happier (for whatever esoteric, inexplicable
reason) when one is in his hands.
Does Wade Boggs really have to eat chicken before a game to hit
well? Well to the extent that he has psyched himself out on this
superstition, sure he does! But it is not the chicken that makes him a
better hitter, it is merely an enabling agent working through his
bizarre psyche. The same could be said for anyone who believes they
play better when playing a brand X instrument, or a vintage
instrument, or a hand-made instrument, or an instrument that Elvis
once drooled on.
If you want to argue that there is such a universal tendency to
love hand-made things that it unlocks the best musician in all of us,
then please offer some hard data for this. It is an intriguing thesis,
certainly one worthy of examination. But if you have neither the data
nor the inclination to provide it, then I'm afraid your view just gets
filed away in the dusty recesses of my brain along with lots of other
interesting, but unsubstantiable ideas.
>If you are a scientist, the importance of imperfection in creation has some
>merit. I think its an important concept that has been largely ignored.
>Making things absolutely and positively perfect is not the way to go.
>Although I know its everything the modern world has taught you to think.
Well, if we accept chaos theory as a plausible model for the
unpredictability of the natural world, then it goes without saying
that even a machine can't produce a PERFECT copy of something. There
will still be imperfections in anything in the physical world, even
where machines are involved in the process.
In fact, as a CNC machine carves, its blades move imperceptively in
all directions yielding results that are never the same twice. As a
CNC-made guitar body moves along a conveyor belt, it acquires tiny
imperfections, dents, etc. Every human hand that eventually touches it
during assembly adds more imperfections. Nature is apparent in the
figured flame tops (even those carved out by machines), and in the
grain of the fingerboard, etc. Surely we humans, being so accutely
aware (even if on an unconscious or spiritual level) of such
imperfections can tell that no two CNC-carved guitars are the same,
and are full of microscopic imperfections.
Cheers,
- John
Matthew Ivaliotes
>All I know is that I have discovered something extraordinary and I and
>several of my customers are simply trying to inform you of it.
You have an opinion which you can't prove yet still choose to treat as
fact. That makes you a guitar-building Jimmy Swaggert to some. (just a
joke)
>I do not want
>to change your thinking, nor can I. If you, for whatever reason, are
>determined not to accept any of my reasoning then you have psychological
>motivations which only you know about and there is nothing I can do about
>it.
That psychological motive is called 'logic' and that intellectual starch
blocker that prevents him from, after reading the posts of you and your
clients, having a eureka-like lightning bolt hit him and show him an
unproven thing is somehow irrefutably true.
>I respect your choice
>to think a certain way but I can't help to think that this alone will limit
>you in many ways and will close off an important part of the world to you,
>namely the spiritual world.
Oh get OVER it, man. You are making not spiritual, but measurable claims.
You've been asked to substantiate them. You can't. It's now your
opinion, and nothing more.
>You are forgetting one important thing. Just because we can't explain
>something in words and numbers does not mean that it does not exist.
And just because you claim it does doesn't mean it actually does.
>You are trying to
>remove emotion from the equation and dismissing emotion as a soft science.
He claimed no such thing. But *anyone* can claim *everything* you did.
You establish nothing by just repeating it over and over.
>Making things absolutely and positively perfect is not the way to go.
>Although I know its everything the modern world has taught you to think.
And so it comes back down to everyone who doesn't take your word as truth
obviously being inferior to you in their inability to escape the
oppressive 'status quo.' Sorry, but you're going to have to do better
than that in order to convince anyone with any critical thinking skills -
and this is coming from someone for whom spiritual issues are deemed
neither trivial nor destructive, but rather an important part of my life.
Bill Jurasz
>guitars are just fine? What if some people, maybe even lots of people,
>maybe they just like them guitars? Maybe.
That is fine IF people know what they are missing. I have no problem if somebody says "I like my cheap Japanese stereo" if they have actually heard something better. But decisions out of ignorance ("I've never heard a Linn system", "I've never heard an expensive guitar") can NEVER be justified, as you are trying to do.
>Yer comparing Hamburgers and Guitars.
He's making what is called an "analogy", and his analogy is valid and makes sense.
>You aren't doing yourself any service with this kind of position you know.
>Yer talking to the very same people that spend idiotic, in your view, amounts
>of money on guitars, that they very well COULD spend on yours.
Well, he is also telling people to try new things, not just accept the status quo. And that is good, even if his method needs improving. I will agree his method needs improving, but I agree (not completely) with his stance.
>Are you suggesting, that before there was You, there wasn't anyone really
>interested in guitars because You didn't exist to make them the "right"
>way? Man.
That is not the impression I ge from him. I don't know why you do.
--
Bill Jurasz, Austin
--== Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ ==--
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Matthew Ivaliotes
>That is fine IF people know what they are missing.
You're prejudicing the duscussion with the terms you use below.
>I have no problem if somebody says "I like my cheap Japanese stereo" if
>they have actually heard something better.
That's not a fitting analogy. It would be fitting to say you don't care
if someone likes their Sony without having heard an Onkyo or Aiwa. It's
just two brands, not a clearly established inferior going up aaginsta
clearly established superior.
>But decisions out of ignorance ("I've never heard a Linn system", "I've
>never heard an expensive guitar") can NEVER be justified, as you are
>trying to do.
That's not what he's trying to do at all. He and I are leaving open the
possibility that Mr Zachary's guitars are fantastic. We're just not going
to take his word for it, and we're not going to take his word onwhat
*only* hand-built guitars have about them unless he can actually support
that assertion with some evidence. It is HE who is being restrictive in
his thinking - we *may* prefer what we have. He implies that he have to
be below him in order to do so, instead of just liking what we like.
>He's making what is called an "analogy", and his analogy is valid and
>makes sense.
I disagree.
>Well, he is also telling people to try new things, not just accept the
>status quo. And that is good, even if his method needs improving.
Agreed.
>I will agree his method needs improving, but I agree (not completely)
>with his stance.
I think his opinion is romantic and appealing, but I haven't seen any
reason to believe it is accurate.
>That is not the impression I ge from him. I don't know why you do.
I'd say that overall, Mr. Zachary is portraying himself as the lone
dispenser of wisdom on tone, and it's getting old, since he hasn't
substantiated any of his claims.
Not A Speck Of Cereal
[] I am not a scientist and I really don't have unlimited time to
convince you
[] of my beliefs and to keep writing to this newsgroup.
From my perspective, your beliefs aren't a problem--it's your
continuing assertion that other people are 'confused' simply because
they have different beliefs than yours. You have not been rude--quite
the contrary, you've been very polite--but you manage to sound pretty
arrogant when you don't acknowledge others viewpoints. Much of this is
non-measurable, subjective stuff, you know.
Chris
Nadine & François
Zachary Music wrote:
> You are forgetting one important thing. Just because we can't explain
> something in words and numbers does not mean that it does not exist. All the
> great music you talk about was created by very spiritual people, from Bach
> to Hendrix. If they ever questioned any of the forces inside their sold they
> would have stop creating. Lets not dismiss emotion as voodoo. The reason
> psychology is called a soft science is because it deals with very complex
> issues. Love, hate etc. We simply can not measure many of these things, not
> easily anyway. if all you have ever played is a machine made instrument then
> you would not understand what I ma talking about. In my experience I kept
I've played several hand made instruments, and, well, I'm sorry, but I don't
understand what you are talking about.
> buying more and more expensive mass produced instruments without the
> satisfaction I was looking for.
I get plenty of satisfaction with mass produced guitars.
A guitar is unique when you make it your own by playing it and breaking it in.
If its a quality guitar with a good acoustic sound, the way its built has
nothing to do with "feel". If a guitar sound and feels good (which is very
subjective), it just does.
> I want to talk to you simply as a guitar player who has played continuously
> for 22 years and not as a business person selling instruments.
> I am not being biased here. I have a large collection of machine made
> guitars and when I pick up one of my own handmade pieces, its like a
> different experience.
It might be because you made it yourself. I'm a wood worker and I can
understand having a great deal of sentimental attachment to a piece you've
built.
> I had this revelation after completing my first
> guitar. The question I had was "why can't these high tech manufacturers make
> a guitar that feels better than this thing I made on my kitchen table. I can
> relate to the handmade instrument on a different level, a much deeper level.
> These instruments feel a part of me as opposed to something foreign. My
> instruments have a life of their own. By seeing tool marks in the piece and
> feeling the inconsistencies you know that it came from the hands of a human.
Now this is the biggest piece of trash I've read in a while. I'm sorry, but if
you are not skilled enough to build something with no tool marks, you should
work on your skills, buddy! When I build something out of wood, usually, it is
built better than mass produced items. My woodworking projects shine before any
finish is applied and are extrememly precise in fit. This is a quality that a
mass produced item often miss. Tolerances should be as good or better on an
object that is hand made compared to a CNC Router made object. The whole idea
(to me) of making something by hand it to make it better, not worse!
Also, if inconsistency is the mark of a great instrument, then Fender must be
the greatest guitar manufacterer in the world! Sorry! If you can't build
something right, don't try to make me believe that the defects are what make it
great.
>
> You can relate to the instrument on a deeper level. This is what I can tell
> you. Your human qualities will pick up and agree with the human qualities of
> this instrument.
A tool mark is the mark of a bad wood worker, not of a human quality. My human
qualities will react to the sound, resonnance and the way the guitar vibrates
against my body and in my hands. This has nothing to do with the way a guitar
is made. Period.
> I have a Line 6 Pod and Spider amps and they sound great but they are
> definitely not natural and I know it. Built in, programmed nuances are not
> the same as the real, natural and variable responsiveness of tubes. A
> digital amp can only be made desirable to any extent if it is programmed to
> sound natural. In effect its made to be imperfect. The problem is that it
> will be imperfect the same way every time, where a tube will vary
> differently in response each time you send signal through it.
No it won't. Not if all parameters stay the same. Your POD just doesn't have
enough power or the right software to realisticly emulate various amplifiers,
whether they are tube or solid state amps.
> merit. I think its an important concept that has been largely ignored.
> Making things absolutely and positively perfect is not the way to go.
CNC Routed guitars are not perfect.
F.M.
Zachary Music
even if they don't agree with me, but you are plain insulting and rude. Save
that kind of talk for your wife. If I were you I would just keep quite
because you are showing your lack of knowledge in all areas especially
woodworking. I suggest you find some rough pieces of wood and build a guitar
out of it before you shoot your mouth off.
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
Nadine & François <fran...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:387BFE20...@sympatico.ca...
> I've been following this thread for a while now and I can't beleive this
crap!
>
> Zachary Music wrote:
>
> > You are forgetting one important thing. Just because we can't explain
> > something in words and numbers does not mean that it does not exist. All
the
> > great music you talk about was created by very spiritual people, from
Bach
> > to Hendrix. If they ever questioned any of the forces inside their sold
they
> > would have stop creating. Lets not dismiss emotion as voodoo. The reason
> > psychology is called a soft science is because it deals with very
complex
> > issues. Love, hate etc. We simply can not measure many of these things,
not
> > easily anyway. if all you have ever played is a machine made instrument
then
> > you would not understand what I ma talking about. In my experience I
kept
>
> I've played several hand made instruments, and, well, I'm sorry, but I
don't
> understand what you are talking about.
You havn't played mine have you? Only then will you understand.
>
> > buying more and more expensive mass produced instruments without the
> > satisfaction I was looking for.
>
> I get plenty of satisfaction with mass produced guitars.
> A guitar is unique when you make it your own by playing it and breaking it
in.
> If its a quality guitar with a good acoustic sound, the way its built has
> nothing to do with "feel". If a guitar sound and feels good (which is very
> subjective), it just does.
I can tell you are not much of a wood worker but are you not a guitar player
either?
Wow, you are amazing. "the way its built has nothing to do with feel" give
you head shake.
>
> > I want to talk to you simply as a guitar player who has played
continuously
> > for 22 years and not as a business person selling instruments.
> > I am not being biased here. I have a large collection of machine made
> > guitars and when I pick up one of my own handmade pieces, its like a
> > different experience.
>
> It might be because you made it yourself. I'm a wood worker and I can
> understand having a great deal of sentimental attachment to a piece you've
> built.
I said that my findings are that of a guitar player and not biased because I
built it. I am being objective.
If I loved it just because I built it, that would be very stupid. As a
guitar player, I am the toughest judge of my guitars. If i couldn't build a
better guitar than the mass-produced variety. I would stop doing it. There
would be no need.
>
> > I had this revelation after completing my first
> > guitar. The question I had was "why can't these high tech manufacturers
make
> > a guitar that feels better than this thing I made on my kitchen table. I
can
> > relate to the handmade instrument on a different level, a much deeper
level.
> > These instruments feel a part of me as opposed to something foreign. My
> > instruments have a life of their own. By seeing tool marks in the piece
and
> > feeling the inconsistencies you know that it came from the hands of a
human.
>
> Now this is the biggest piece of trash I've read in a while. I'm sorry,
but if
> you are not skilled enough to build something with no tool marks, you
should
> work on your skills, buddy! When I build something out of wood, usually,
it is
> built better than mass produced items. My woodworking projects shine
before any
> finish is applied and are extrememly precise in fit. This is a quality
that a
> mass produced item often miss. Tolerances should be as good or better on
an
> object that is hand made compared to a CNC Router made object. The whole
idea
> (to me) of making something by hand it to make it better, not worse!
> Also, if inconsistency is the mark of a great instrument, then Fender must
be
> the greatest guitar manufacterer in the world! Sorry! If you can't build
> something right, don't try to make me believe that the defects are what
make it
> great.
This is where you reveal your stupidity. Be careful next time.
Even my critics will admit that there is no human that can be as exact as a
computerized machine. Not even close, buddy.
Tool marks are the signature of a craftsmen. The Pine guitar I made was
deliberately made "rustic" but the rest of my work is very precise but if
you look close enough you will notice that it was made by hand and I am
proud of this. My hands are not accurate to the thousands of an inch like
the CNC, if yours are you are the 8th wonder of the world. Remember my whole
theory is that absolute perfection is not desirable in a great instrument.
To the contrary. You like to wear in your new machine-made guitars? What
exactly is wearing-in? Ask yourself. Its the introduction of imperfection to
an otherwise perfect object. This is why EVH asked to have his CNC made
necks to be made imperfect. The best players use vintage (worn) imperfect
guitars. Why do you think SRV used that old Strat. Do you think that Strat
was anything near perfection after 30 years and 8 fret jobs. SRV's Strat
feels much different than the CNC made guitar at your local music store.
Mass produced items if designed and programmed correctly are dead accurate.
Yes, Fender may just be one of the greatest guitar manufacturers in the
world and hundreds of players will tell you that on this neusgroup. The
older the instruments the more inconsistent and the more imperfect they are
and that's what I personally and I believe others as well can relate too.
If you make hand crafted trinkets which are as precise as a machine made
item then I want no part of it. That is not why I buy handcrafted objects. I
want to see your human qualities in your work, that's what I am willing to
pay for.
You have confused the words. Imperfection and variability does not mean
worse! I know the words have bad connotations and that's what's misleading
you.
You need to think about this for a while.
>
> >
> > You can relate to the instrument on a deeper level. This is what I can
tell
> > you. Your human qualities will pick up and agree with the human
qualities of
> > this instrument.
>
> A tool mark is the mark of a bad wood worker, not of a human quality. My
human
> qualities will react to the sound, resonnance and the way the guitar
vibrates
> against my body and in my hands. This has nothing to do with the way a
guitar
> is made. Period.
You need to spend a few more years playing the guitar. Sound, resonnance and
the way a guitar vibrates has everything to do with the way a guitar is
made. This is the art of musical instrument building. Again, you havn't
played my guitars, so you wouldn't know.
Again, if you are making something by hand and you call yourself a
woodworker don't make an abject like a computer. Make it with skill and
emotion, it will make it much more appealing. A computer will beat your ass
in terms of perfection every time. Don't try to say you are perfect, it
sounds stupid.
Spider amps and they sound great but they are
> > definitely not natural and I know it. Built in, programmed nuances are
not
> > the same as the real, natural and variable responsiveness of tubes. A
> > digital amp can only be made desirable to any extent if it is programmed
to
> > sound natural. In effect its made to be imperfect. The problem is that
it
> > will be imperfect the same way every time, where a tube will vary
> > differently in response each time you send signal through it.
>
> No it won't. Not if all parameters stay the same. Your POD just doesn't
have
> enough power or the right software to realisticly emulate various
amplifiers,
> whether they are tube or solid state amps.
OK, I am willing to wait until it has enough processing power to respond
just like something its trying to emulate. Thats like saying that infaltable
sex dolls will respond just like a real woman. I will take a real woman with
all her imperfections, because somehow, I just relate to that more. How
about you?
>
> > merit. I think its an important concept that has been largely ignored.
> > Making things absolutely and positively perfect is not the way to go.
>
> CNC Routed guitars are not perfect.
They are pretty darn close even the $200 ones.
Nadine & François
> I don't mind having an intelligent argument with the folks on the newsgroup
> even if they don't agree with me, but you are plain insulting and rude. Save
> that kind of talk for your wife. If I were you I would just keep quite
> because you are showing your lack of knowledge in all areas especially
> woodworking. I suggest you find some rough pieces of wood and build a guitar
> out of it before you shoot your mouth off.
If I came off rude, I am sorry. That was not my intention.
> Nadine & François <fran...@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
> news:387BFE20...@sympatico.ca...
> > If its a quality guitar with a good acoustic sound, the way its built has
> > nothing to do with "feel". If a guitar sound and feels good (which is very
> > subjective), it just does.
>
> I can tell you are not much of a wood worker but are you not a guitar player
> either?
> Wow, you are amazing. "the way its built has nothing to do with feel" give
> you head shake.
Let me re-word. The way a guitar is built ,whether it be by entirely by hand or
with the help of a computer (shaped by a computer, fitted by hand), does not
affect the sound or feel of that guitar. This is in my opinion only (but I'm
sure a lot of people with agree with me on this particular point)
The guitar's choice of wood, electronics and general design will affect the
feel and sound.
> > Now this is the biggest piece of trash I've read in a while. I'm sorry,
> but if
> > you are not skilled enough to build something with no tool marks, you
> should
> > work on your skills, buddy! When I build something out of wood, usually,
> it is
> > built better than mass produced items. My woodworking projects shine
> before any
> > finish is applied and are extrememly precise in fit. This is a quality
> that a
> > mass produced item often miss. Tolerances should be as good or better on
> an
> > object that is hand made compared to a CNC Router made object. The whole
> idea
> > (to me) of making something by hand it to make it better, not worse!
> > Also, if inconsistency is the mark of a great instrument, then Fender must
> be
> > the greatest guitar manufacterer in the world! Sorry! If you can't build
> > something right, don't try to make me believe that the defects are what
> make it
> > great.
>
> This is where you reveal your stupidity. Be careful next time.
> Even my critics will admit that there is no human that can be as exact as a
> computerized machine. Not even close, buddy.
What do you mean by exact?
A guitar which is assembled from CNC routed parts with no human intervention on
those parts will have gaps in places like the neck pocket. This is because the
neck's heel must be a bit smaller than the pocket so it slides in easily on all
guitars regardless of the type of wood used or whether the wood has swelled or
shrunk. There's a margin of error that's the same for all guitars. i.e. all
neck heels are 1/32" smaller than the neck pocket width, all the time, every
time. They will be cut "exactly" the same every time. Any guitar may accept
that neck. What we are building here is just universal parts and putting them
together. This is your standard, off the line, mass-produced guitars. Some of
these may sound and feel great. Most of them might not.
Now take a guitar that is hand fitted. There should be absolutely no gap
because it is sanded down or planed by hand until it fits perfectly. This is
the difference between mass produced and non-mass produced. The fit is "exact".
When I say exact, this is what I mean. Every neck will be made to fit that
particular guitar which is the main difference with a guitar that has had no
human intervention in the building process. You can't just take another
universal CNC-Routed neck, and fit it to that guitar because it will never be
as good as the original hand fitted one. If, on top of that, you match the
materials with great care and attention, you've got one unique guitar that will
sound and feel great, assuming the guitar's personality matches the player's
personality. For example, I would never see SRV playing a mahogany guitar with
humbuckers through a Marshall Stack.
A completely hand made guitar should have a better fit than a CNC routed
guitar. Do you at least agree with this?
> Tool marks are the signature of a craftsmen.
I would say that the method of construction is. For example, your unique neck
to body connection design.
> The Pine guitar I made was
> deliberately made "rustic" but the rest of my work is very precise but if
> you look close enough you will notice that it was made by hand and I am
> proud of this. My hands are not accurate to the thousands of an inch like
> the CNC, if yours are you are the 8th wonder of the world. Remember my whole
> theory is that absolute perfection is not desirable in a great instrument.
> To the contrary. You like to wear in your new machine-made guitars? What
> exactly is wearing-in? Ask yourself. Its the introduction of imperfection to
> an otherwise perfect object. This is why EVH asked to have his CNC made
> necks to be made imperfect. The best players use vintage (worn) imperfect
> guitars. Why do you think SRV used that old Strat. Do you think that Strat
> was anything near perfection after 30 years and 8 fret jobs. SRV's Strat
> feels much different than the CNC made guitar at your local music store.
> Mass produced items if designed and programmed correctly are dead accurate.
> Yes, Fender may just be one of the greatest guitar manufacturers in the
> world and hundreds of players will tell you that on this neusgroup. The
> older the instruments the more inconsistent and the more imperfect they are
> and that's what I personally and I believe others as well can relate too.
> If you make hand crafted trinkets which are as precise as a machine made
> item then I want no part of it. That is not why I buy handcrafted objects. I
> want to see your human qualities in your work, that's what I am willing to
> pay for.
You will see the human qualities, no doubt. It might look like its omputer made
from a distance but if you look closer, you can always tell my hand crafted
object from mass produced stuff because it finer. Fine furniture is not
mass-produced because a computer cannot give the same attention to detail that
a human can.
> You have confused the words. Imperfection and variability does not mean
> worse! I know the words have bad connotations and that's what's misleading
> you.
> You need to think about this for a while.
I have. Imperfections are everywhere, and I agree that it is not BAD. This is
not the issue here. The issue is that a CNC routed guitar is better that a hand
made one. I have CNC made guitars that feel so good , yet when you look at
them, you wonder how that can be. The same can be true for hand made guitars.
> > > You can relate to the instrument on a deeper level. This is what I can
> tell
> > > you. Your human qualities will pick up and agree with the human
> qualities of
> > > this instrument.
> >
> > A tool mark is the mark of a bad wood worker, not of a human quality. My
> human
> > qualities will react to the sound, resonnance and the way the guitar
> vibrates
> > against my body and in my hands. This has nothing to do with the way a
> guitar
> > is made. Period.
>
> You need to spend a few more years playing the guitar. Sound, resonnance and
> the way a guitar vibrates has everything to do with the way a guitar is
> made.
If its good, its good. The means to get there is irrelevant.
> This is the art of musical instrument building. Again, you havn't
> played my guitars, so you wouldn't know.
> Again, if you are making something by hand and you call yourself a
> woodworker don't make an abject like a computer. Make it with skill and
> emotion, it will make it much more appealing. A computer will beat your ass
> in terms of perfection every time. Don't try to say you are perfect, it
> sounds stupid.
A quality hand made object should be built better than a computer built one.
Attention to detail is greater on a hand made object. The hand made objects
won't all be exactly the same because they are built as a whole, as one
coherent piece. This is what you call invariability, inconsistency. All guitars
are uniquely made as a single entity. For a guitar, this does not guarantee
better feel or sound but it certainly helps getting there. It will guarantee
better construction. With the right wood, it will guarantee better feel and
sound. The thing is, nothing prevents you from doing the initial shaping on the
CNC, and doing the final touches manually on those pieces. This is no different
from using a template to do initial shaping and finishing it off by hand. The
important thing is the match all the parts together with care. You must build a
guitar, not parts. Note that some mass-produced guitars may have great feel and
sound, just because its got all the right cominations to make it a great
instrument. All the parts just kinda fell together. Believe me, it can happen.
> > > merit. I think its an important concept that has been largely ignored.
> > > Making things absolutely and positively perfect is not the way to go.
> >
> > CNC Routed guitars are not perfect.
>
> They are pretty darn close even the $200 ones.
In terms of consistency of shapes, they are,
I wonder what you think of G&L guitars. Although I don't own one, the ones I've
tried were superior to Fenders in general. They are hand shaped used templates
and finished off by hand.
Richard
> I said that my findings are that of a guitar player and not biased
> because I built it. I am being objective. If I loved it just because
> I built it, that would be very stupid.
Actually, Zach, it's impossible for you to be unbiased in this
situation:
1) You build 'em
2) You sell 'em
Friend, that's the very definition of bias!
Zachary Music
computer. All guitars including CNC ones are fitted by hand, they haven't
invented a machine that can do that yet. Believe me if they had such a
machine all the workers would be gone the next day.
How a guitar is shaped gives it its feel. A human will be less precise, less
symmetrical and less consistent. These are exactly the qualities that we
have been taught to stay away from. My personal opinion is that these are
the exact qualities, within reason, that give a guitar a great feel. My
opinion is also that this is innate and instinctual in humans to aim for
perfection but to gravitate toward imperfection. By definition, imperfection
is to be human and that's what gives these guitars a more "human" quality. I
can't measure this or give a scientific explanation for this. Maybe some of
you University professor types that have responded to this post can do a
controlled experiment.
Every guitar I build, is built for me. According to what I like in a guitar.
If this appeals to anyone else after playing it, then my guitar is also for
them. If the guitar does not feel good to them then its not for them. These
guitars feel, look and sound substantially different from anything else. The
are built very differently form most other guitars. The guitars I make feel
very organic and each one is different.
I am not trying to put down machine made guitars. Yes, many of them are
good. I have a whole collection of them and some are better than others.
Zachary Music
player they are not for sale.
I play them in every style and they must make the grade.
I am a tough critic. Maybe tougher than most people. If something is not
right, then its back to the drawing board.
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
Richard <hud...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.12e6d3154...@news.earthlink.net...
> According to my newsreader, in...@zacharymusic.com posted...
>
> > I said that my findings are that of a guitar player and not biased
> > because I built it. I am being objective. If I loved it just because
> > I built it, that would be very stupid.
>
Not A Speck Of Cereal
[] I was a bit disappointed to follow a link to
[] Zachary's to find that just because he doesn't use
[] CNC machines he's still not close to a hand
[] crafter. If he really wants to be a hand crafter,
[] why does he build electric guitars? The tools he
[] uses are electric, which are nothing but kissing
[] cousins to a CNC machine.
I.... think that's stretching it a bit.
Basically and fairly, it's like this: a production line machine with
not only have a CNC carved body, but many other parts will be put
together on an assembly line either by a machine or a production
working (not a luthier or handcrafter).
Handcrafter: the benefits here is mainly in the level of granular
attention that a luthier craftsman can give to the details of what
makes a guitar sound, feel and look great. The luthier will be guiding
these modern power tools with their trained hands. You extra pay for
this kind of attention, sometimes a lot extra.
Production guitar: the benefits here are lower cost and consistent
results. Fine details may be overlooked, but a decent quality control
department can tighten up that 'consistency'. You can get a great
guitar for a lot less money if you know what to look for, reject the
duds. You'll still miss adornments than a machine can't really do
justice with, such as nice inlay work.
Chris
----
"If it was necessary to tolerate in other people everything
that one permits in oneself, life would be unbearable."
-- Georges Courteline
Remove X's from my email address above to reply
[These opinions are personal views only and only my personal views]
JS
"Not A Speck Of Cereal" <Xchriss...@Xmsn.comX> wrote in message
news:sogq7so00k8nq237b...@4ax.com...
> So chs...@my-deja.com was sayin':
> [] I was a bit disappointed to follow a link to
> [] Zachary's to find that just because he doesn't use
> [] CNC machines he's still not close to a hand
> [] crafter. If he really wants to be a hand crafter,
> [] why does he build electric guitars? The tools he
> [] uses are electric, which are nothing but kissing
> [] cousins to a CNC machine.
>
> I.... think that's stretching it a bit.
>
Nope, sorry. The FTC has said that for anything made out of wood to be
legally called "handcrafted". The woodwork must be done by only rudimentary
cutting and jabbing objects, like sharp rocks and elk bones. Oils for
finishes must be natural and preferably from the elk whose bones were used
for the woodwork. Electric drills, machine-made files and other wimp tools
used in any woodcraft instantly disqualify it from being "handcrafted".
Sure, it kills the price with labor, but only real guitars are made this
way.
walk in splendor,
js
chs...@my-deja.com
Zachary's to find that just because he doesn't
use
CNC machines he's still not close to a hand
crafter. If he really wants to be a hand
crafter,
why does he build electric guitars? The tools he
uses are electric, which are nothing but kissing
guitars
that turned out very nice, one with which I cut
the sides and back out of a piece of walnut my
dad
cut down. I used a *hand* saw to cut them down
to
a size I could manage. Then I used chisels and a
block plane. I did use a hand drill and a jig
saw. I read about a man named Boaz who made a
guitar with nothing but a pocket knife. And Zack
calls himself a do gooder?
So how are Zachary guitars hand built? And as
for
style, I think he has gone too far out and made
something a bit weird, which isn't traditional
like hand worked instruments. No, he's not the
vegetarian type yet. He's a New age sort of Guy,
frustrated and lactose intolerant.
Stop milking this handtool fight and learn to
jive
and fit in with those who have better tools, or
go
back to making classical guitars.
(just a voice in the wilderness, crying, "make a
straigt way for the Lord!") Charlie
Nadine & François
> I feel that there is a big difference between shaped by hand and shaped by
> computer. All guitars including CNC ones are fitted by hand, they haven't
> invented a machine that can do that yet. Believe me if they had such a
Some guitar builders (and companies) shape their guitar parts using a CNC
router but do the final shaping by hand. I'm not talking about assembly when I
say "fitted". The neck heels are CNC routed so they are too bit to fit in the
neck pockect of the guitar body. Someone takes that neck heel and shapes it by
hand by sanding or planing it so that it eventually fit precisely. Other
companies make the neck heel slightly smaller than the neck pocket so that no
manual intervention in shaping that neck is needed. Parts are simply assembled
together as opposed to fitted together.
> How a guitar is shaped gives it its feel. A human will be less precise, less
> symmetrical and less consistent. These are exactly the qualities that we
> have been taught to stay away from. My personal opinion is that these are
> the exact qualities, within reason, that give a guitar a great feel. My
> opinion is also that this is innate and instinctual in humans to aim for
> perfection but to gravitate toward imperfection. By definition, imperfection
> is to be human and that's what gives these guitars a more "human" quality. I
> can't measure this or give a scientific explanation for this. Maybe some of
> you University professor types that have responded to this post can do a
> controlled experiment.
I agree with this statement.
> Every guitar I build, is built for me. According to what I like in a guitar.
> If this appeals to anyone else after playing it, then my guitar is also for
> them. If the guitar does not feel good to them then its not for them. These
> guitars feel, look and sound substantially different from anything else. The
> are built very differently form most other guitars. The guitars I make feel
> very organic and each one is different.
Ok. This is not the impression that you gave me (and other people in this
group) initially.
> I am not trying to put down machine made guitars. Yes, many of them are
> good. I have a whole collection of them and some are better than others.
Great. Thats exactly what I wanted to read.
F.M.
chs...@my-deja.com
because he doesn't use CNC machines he's still not close to a hand
electric guitars? The tools he uses are electric, which are nothing but
kissing cousins to a CNC machine. I made a couple guitars that turned
out very nice, one with which I cut the sides and back out of a piece
of walnut my dad cut down. I used a *hand* saw to cut them down to a
size I could manage. Then I used chisels and a block plane. I did use
clamps (My dad made mine).
So how are Zachary guitars hand built? And as for style, I think he has
gone too far out and made something a bit weird, which isn't traditional
like hand worked instruments. No, he's not the vegetarian type yet.
He's a New age Guy, frustrated and lactose intolerant.
I read about a guy named Boaz who made a guitar with no tools save a
pocket knife. Now, where do you draw the line whether something is hand
crafted on machined? I feel like Zack is just complaining besause he's
losing a part of the market share. Hey, it's not your tools. A real
worker gets to work and lets his work sell itself. A hand crafter
writing email? What is the world coming to? Charlie
Allan Flippin
this: "the machine used to do the job does not require the wearing of
gloves" LOL LOL
Allan (who has hand-crafted a few things himself)
On Thu, 13 Jan 2000 02:49:38 GMT, chs...@my-deja.com wrote:
>I was a bit disappointed to follow a link to
>Zachary's to find that just because he doesn't
>use
>CNC machines he's still not close to a hand
>crafter. If he really wants to be a hand
>crafter,
>why does he build electric guitars? The tools he
>uses are electric, which are nothing but kissing
>cousins to a CNC machine. I made a couple
>guitars
>that turned out very nice, one with which I cut
>the sides and back out of a piece of walnut my
>dad
>cut down. I used a *hand* saw to cut them down
>to
>a size I could manage. Then I used chisels and a
>block plane. I did use a hand drill and a jig
>saw. I read about a man named Boaz who made a
>guitar with nothing but a pocket knife. And Zack
>calls himself a do gooder?
>
>So how are Zachary guitars hand built? And as
>for
>style, I think he has gone too far out and made
>something a bit weird, which isn't traditional
>like hand worked instruments. No, he's not the
>vegetarian type yet. He's a New age sort of Guy,
>frustrated and lactose intolerant.
>
>Stop milking this handtool fight and learn to
>jive
>and fit in with those who have better tools, or
>go
>back to making classical guitars.
>
>(just a voice in the wilderness, crying, "make a
>straigt way for the Lord!") Charlie
Zachary Music
You seem not to understand some of the issues. Let me help you out.
The way I define handcrafting is regardless of the tool used, hand or power
tool, every operation must be guided by hand. Being a fellow guitar builder
yourself I find it odd that you do not show much respect for this. Guiding
any tool by hand is a very difficult, nerve-wracking and sometimes dangerous
task in terms of safety.
I was just routing the tremolo cavity on my latest creation and I had to do
part of it without a template. I was so anxious to get this first Trem model
finished that I did not want to spend time making templates. So I did it
freehand. One wrong blink Charlie and there goes the whole body of the
guitar. Firewood.
Now, the opposite to this is the computer programmed CNC machine which works
entirely independent of human involvement. It just follows the program. This
is the distinction between handcrafted and machine-made. I am shocked that
you did not understand this.
I do have a lot of respect for you if you are skilled at using the hand
tools that you mention. You are a great craftsman.
As for the style of my guitars, I really don't think its weird at all. I
don't like weird guitars. I think its a nice mix between vintage style and
modern styling. I think there are quite elegant and original which is the
most important part. Please don't let the holes or the headstock throw you
off.
Please don't think that handcraftsmanship means that you must build
classical guitars. You can even build a bird house and it would still be
handcraftsmanship. Did you know that many classical guitars these days are
not even handcrafted, they are mainly machine-made.
Being a vegetarian is as far from the truth as you can get. I have a
condition called Hypoglycemia. Some of you intellectual professor types will
know what I am talking about. With this condition I must eat about five
times a day to keep my bloodsugar stable. The only thing that works for this
is meat. I eat meat about 4 or 5 times a day. If I eat too much
carbohydrates or vegetables I get an increase of insulin and my blood sugar
drops. I get mood swings and I feel weak and generally sick which could all
develop into a coma if I let it go long enough. Sorry Charlie, vegetarian
NO. You must call me other names, just make sure you call me nice names.
Loosing market share? Remember Charlie, I build these guitars all for myself
and if people like them, I will sell it to them. This is not a mass marketed
item where I have to worry about selling them. I have another business which
I have been involved with for over ten years and this is quite successful
and keeps me busy. You can check that out as well and if you are looking for
a wind instrument I can help you out with a saxophone, trumpet, flute or any
other wind instrument. My other business puts food on the table so I don't
actually have to sell any guitars. I make them because I love guitars. Just
think, I can have a new guitar every week if I want to. I will sell one to
you if you really like. But then again you can just make your own.
By the way If there is anyone out there who is looking for a Wind instrument
for yourself or your kids, let me know. I have very good deals and will ship
anywhere.
My work does sell itself. I sold three guitars in December, I sold one to a
guy in Mexico and I am sending three to Singapore. I must tell people about
my guitars though. I can't just work in a vacuum. I may be making the
greatest stuff on earth and fine people like you Charlie would never know
about it. That wouldn't be shame. I feel obligated to tell you about my
work. Because of this post I had the wonderful opportunity to introduce my
work to many wonderful people, who will all own a Zachary guitar one day, I
am sure of it. I could have never done this if it wasn't for this newsgroup
and me spending precious time replying to people.
Yes handcrafters can also write email. Its hard to believe, but its true.
Its not below me to write email to wonderful gentlemen like yourself. Its
time well spent, wouldn't you say? I just finished staining my Trem model
and I took a little break, I sat down at my computer and there was Charlie's
post. Your post did make my day, so I thought it was more than worthwhile to
send you a reply. After all, you took the time to write a wonderful email to
me. Why shouldn't I write you back? It would be rude if I didn't.
I am glad you like my work Charlie and I would really love to see pictures
of your work. I am always willing to learn.
Zack
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
<chs...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:85jg4r$45d$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> I was a bit disappointed to follow a link to Zachary's to find that just
> because he doesn't use CNC machines he's still not close to a hand
> crafter. If you really want to be a hand crafter, why does he build
> electric guitars? The tools he uses are electric, which are nothing but
> kissing cousins to a CNC machine. I made a couple guitars that turned
> out very nice, one with which I cut the sides and back out of a piece
> of walnut my dad cut down. I used a *hand* saw to cut them down to a
> size I could manage. Then I used chisels and a block plane. I did use
> a hand drill and a jig saw. No drill press, no jointer, not special
> clamps (My dad made mine).
>
> So how are Zachary guitars hand built? And as for style, I think he has
> gone too far out and made something a bit weird, which isn't traditional
> like hand worked instruments. No, he's not the vegetarian type yet.
> He's a New age Guy, frustrated and lactose intolerant.
>
> I read about a guy named Boaz who made a guitar with no tools save a
> pocket knife. Now, where do you draw the line whether something is hand
> crafted on machined? I feel like Zack is just complaining besause he's
> losing a part of the market share. Hey, it's not your tools. A real
> worker gets to work and lets his work sell itself. A hand crafter
> writing email? What is the world coming to? Charlie
George4908
chew it into the shape of a guitar. I sand it on my chest. And I string it
with human sinew.
Ben Keller
yeah, that's what I've always done, too.
-keller
JS
"George4908" <georg...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000113144130...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
> Tools? Who needs tools? I rip the wood from the tree with my bare hands.
I
> chew it into the shape of a guitar. I sand it on my chest. And I string
it
> with human sinew.
Congrats Bro!!
Sadly, we've moved away from that Truest of True ways to build a guitar.
Keep the torch lit, if you build them, they will come.
js
Not A Speck Of SEFSTRAT
[]
[] Nope, sorry. The FTC has said that for anything made out of wood to
be
[] legally called "handcrafted". The woodwork must be done by only
rudimentary
[] cutting and jabbing objects, like sharp rocks and elk bones. Oils
for
[] finishes must be natural and preferably from the elk whose bones
were used
[] for the woodwork. Electric drills, machine-made files and other
wimp tools
[] used in any woodcraft instantly disqualify it from being
"handcrafted".
[] Sure, it kills the price with labor, but only real guitars are made
this
[] way.
H... how about t... the strings?!? Do I have to gut a cat to get
strings?!?
[] walk in splendor,
[] js
[]
[] www.ludditeguitars.com
Please, will you please subscribe me to your luddite guitars
newsletter?
Dan Stanley
JS <v6c...@uswest.next> wrote in message
news:w5tf4.668$gr.2...@news.uswest.net...
Bah. I stare at a tree, and WILL a guitar to come out of it.
Not A Speck Of SEFSTRAT
[]
[] Bah. I stare at a tree, and WILL a guitar to come out of it.
After all, the guitar is already there, waiting for you to remove the
waste....
Les Cargill
Dan Stanley wrote:
>
> JS <v6c...@uswest.next> wrote in message
> news:w5tf4.668$gr.2...@news.uswest.net...
> >
> > "George4908" <georg...@aol.com> wrote in message
> > news:20000113144130...@ng-ch1.aol.com...
> > > Tools? Who needs tools? I rip the wood from the tree with my bare
> hands.
> > I
> > > chew it into the shape of a guitar. I sand it on my chest. And I
> string
> > it
> > > with human sinew.
> >
> > Congrats Bro!!
> > Sadly, we've moved away from that Truest of True ways to build a guitar.
> > Keep the torch lit, if you build them, they will come.
> > js
>
> Bah. I stare at a tree, and WILL a guitar to come out of it.
So, how's that going so far? Can you look at a pile of tunsgten, sand and
plastic
and make tubes?
--
Les Cargill
http://home.att.net/~lcargill/
Les Cargill
David Fosnocht wrote:
>
> Les Cargill <lcar...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
> news:387E841B...@worldnet.att.net...
> >
> >
> > Dan Stanley wrote:
>
> > > Bah. I stare at a tree, and WILL a guitar to come out of it.
> >
> > So, how's that going so far? Can you look at a pile of tunsgten, sand and
> > plastic
> > and make tubes?
> >
>
> I'd like to be able to stare a pot of honey and make Pamela Anderson.
Just learn all the drum parts to Motley Crue's back catalog. And you'd have
to look at silicone gel, not honey.
Daniel R. Haney
> David Fosnocht wrote:
>> I'd like to be able to stare a pot of honey and make Pamela Anderson.
>
> Just learn all the drum parts to Motley Crue's back catalog. And you'd have
> to look at silicone gel, not honey.
What's all this about staring at
Pamela Anderson's honey pot?
Did I miss something?
-drh
--
Ivar Arnesen
Dan Stanley <stan...@tiac.net> wrotenews:85llc2$n...@news-central.tiac.net
> Bah. I stare at a tree, and WILL a guitar to come out of it.
Yeah, Sharon told us about those eyes, so they work on trees as well as
women, oh man..........
Ivar
David Fosnocht
Les Cargill <lcar...@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:387E841B...@worldnet.att.net...
>
>
> Dan Stanley wrote:
> > Bah. I stare at a tree, and WILL a guitar to come out of it.
>
> So, how's that going so far? Can you look at a pile of tunsgten, sand and
> plastic
> and make tubes?
>
I'd like to be able to stare a pot of honey and make Pamela Anderson.
David Fosnocht
Daniel R. Haney <salv...@std.com> wrote in message
news:387E917D...@std.com...
> Les Cargill wrote:
> > David Fosnocht wrote:
>
> >
have
> > to look at silicone gel, not honey.
>
> What's all this about staring at
> Pamela Anderson's honey pot?
>
> Did I miss something?
>
Yes, you did. Just stand over there while Dan stares at you. He's going to
make something.
David Kurtz
"Zachary Music" <in...@zacharymusic.com> wrote (écrivait) :
> Yes, but don't forget, I can make a neck that you will like. I am not bound
> by computer programs. If I wish I can sculpt it the way you like.
How is this different than the Fender Custom Shop, Suhr, Anderson, or any
other 'custom' builder?
--
David Kurtz : Shred the serious bandwidth --McNally
PGP Key and more : http://www.lightside.net/~david/
Matthew Ivaliotes
>In article <yzqd4.1326$S64....@nnrp1.uunet.ca>,
>"Zachary Music" <in...@zacharymusic.com> wrote:
>> Yes, but don't forget, I can make a neck that you will like. I am not bound
>> by computer programs. If I wish I can sculpt it the way you like.
>How is this different than the Fender Custom Shop, Suhr, Anderson, or any
>other 'custom' builder?
And for the record, despite Mr. Zachary's answer to my question, McInturff
does *not* CNC-route their guitars. So Zachary is definitely not alone.
Yet I've never seen a tool mark on a McIntruff...
Matt I.
speaking only for myself
Zachary Music
selling you their guitars. They must love guys like you.
I would be interested to know how you arrived at this information that
McInturff do not CNC their guitars.
Just use your brains Matt and ask yourself, how many guitars does McInturff
sell a month or a year. Quite a few I believe, and to smart guys like you.
Therefore, they would need an whole army of "real" luthiers hand carving
tops and shaping necks with a rasp. Even Mr. McInturff would have to join in
and get his fingers dirty. Just think of his payroll cost. If you believe
this, you need serious help.
It is an impossibility for any manufacturer that sells any kind of numbers
to do it the way I do it. It would be also very stupid for anyone the size
of the McInturff company to even attempt to handcraft guitars. I will let
you in on a little secret, if I got 10 orders tomorrow and they had to be
delivered in two months I could never do it. I would be in big trouble. This
is why I like the way my business is. Its small enough that I can do it the
way I really want to do it. If I got the size of McIntuff I would be forced
to call myself Zachary Machine-Made Guitars.
Don't think for a moment that I am blaming McInturff for what he does. He
has no choice. He has reached a level of success and he must deliver. He
does not have the luxury to fart around, chat with people like you on the
newsgroups and build a few guitars in his spare time. He has dealers to
satisfy with "units". Mr. McInturff also has aspirations to be like PRS. In
a business sense it would be absolutely idiotic for him not to use a CNC. He
is smart and knows what he is doing. He is a lot smarter than you because he
has you fooled real good.
I think you got your perception from the glossy full page MCInturff ads
where you see a finished CNC made guitar with antiquated hand tools around
it. Mr. McInturff would get a laugh from what you said. His ad is very
expensive but it worked and good for him.
Take a look at my Trem model, let me know if you see any tool marks. I hope
you do because I wouldn't build a guitar without them.
If you don't see any toolmarks, I will have to put some in on the next one I
make. I would never want people to mistake my work for the job of a CNC.
That would piss me off.
By the way, there is a worm hole in the back. Very cool.
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
Matthew Ivaliotes <lo...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:nFNf4.25$hT3....@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu...
Zachary Music
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
evil twinŽ <sh...@kc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:8cQf4.3197$Mp2....@typhoon2.kc.rr.com...
> On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:35:47 -0500, "Zachary Music"
> <in...@zacharymusic.com> wrote:
>
> >Matthew, are you that gullible? I can see how these guys have no trouble
> >selling you their guitars. They must love guys like you.
> >I would be interested to know how you arrived at this information that
> >McInturff do not CNC their guitars.
> >
> >Just use your brains Matt and ask yourself, how many guitars does
McInturff
> >sell a month or a year. Quite a few I believe, and to smart guys like
you.
> >Therefore, they would need an whole army of "real" luthiers hand carving
> >tops and shaping necks with a rasp. Even Mr. McInturff would have to join
in
> >and get his fingers dirty. Just think of his payroll cost. If you
believe
> >this, you need serious help.
>
> Are you saying the only choices are using unpowered hand
> tools or going full blown CNC? Isn't it possible that
> McInturff has partially automated several steps without the
> aid of computers?
First of all, I don't just use unpowered hand tools. I use many hand power
tools as well. Its highly doubtfull that McInturff does not use computers
because a McInturff is a very different guitar from a G&L. Its much more
complicated to build a McInturff. It has a carved arched top and a glued in
set neck. G&L guitars are built with an overhand pin router which is hand
controlled but makes use of steel templates which guide the pin of the
router. With G&Ls you don't need a computer to increase production since you
can just as easily use the pin router.
If McInturffs were hand carved It would take a long time to finish each
guitar and the consistency would vary greatly. Like I said before
variability is desirable, but not in mass marketed merchandise. A McDonald's
hamburger must be the same in tokyo as in Elkhart IN. Handcrafting or at
least partially handcrafting would not be a problem if the number of units
were kept low, but when you are building hundreds of guitars and sending
them to hundreds of dealers around the world it would bog the whole process
down and every McInturff would be drasticlly different. The public and the
dealers would go nuts. You could never pin down what a McInturff was
actually like since every one of them would be different. If you had to
hand-carve arch tops, each one would be different. The way an artist can
never paint the same picture twice.
>
> Fender built hundreds of thousands of guitars during their
> glory years without the benefit of CNC. G&L's output is at
> least equal to McInturff's, and they aren't using CNC. If
> McInturff claims he doesn't use a CNC machine, why is
> somebody gullible for believing it?
Someone is gullible because they did not take into consideration what it
takes to build each style of guitar. A bolt on Fender style guitar is very
different from a set neck arch top with a figured top. Anyone who has some
experience in guitar building woud pick up on this right away.
The Fender guitar was designed from day one to be built on a
non-computerized assembly line and that is what G&L is still doing.
>
> You've yet to make a good case against using CNC in the
> first place, and I think you've conveniently defined
> "hand-crafted" in a way that allows you to use YOUR
> machines, while slighting those who have more advanced
> machines.
To the contrary, I am not blaming anyone for using CNC. I am simply saying
that it results in an entirely different guitar. If I had a huge market for
my guitars and had to supply many dealers, I would be forced to do it this
way as well. It is the logical way to go. In fact even small builders are
doing exactly this way. They make one prototype, send it to a CNC house,
have them clone it and the builder has an unlimited supply of finished necks
and bodies. This way a one man operation can literally be a good size
"guitar manufacturer". Try it, you can do the same. Simply learn how to
level frets, assemble parts, do the set up and the wiring. You can send it
off to your choice of finishers to have it painted.
If you can get financing you will have enough money to do magazine ads. You
can then take a nice photo of your finished guitar and place some old hand
tools around it and imply that it was handcrafted. If you don't feel that
handcrafted guitars are better than why do you think that virtually every
manufacturer likes to imply that their guitars are handcrafted. They are
almost ashamed to tell you that the guitar was virtually all built without
human contact. According to this newsgroup they have nothing to be ashamed
of. They have hundreds of supporters who apparently don't care how their
guitars were made.
evil twin®
lo...@uiuc.edu (Matthew Ivaliotes) wrote:
[snip]
> I got 5 bucks that says Terry McInturff didn't outsource his necks
> or his painting. I got 5 more than says Suhr didn't do it, either.
Suhr does (or used to) outsource his painting. He's posted that info
here before. Not that it really matters who sprays the guitar...
evil twin®
<in...@zacharymusic.com> wrote:
>Matthew, are you that gullible? I can see how these guys have no trouble
>selling you their guitars. They must love guys like you.
>I would be interested to know how you arrived at this information that
>McInturff do not CNC their guitars.
>
>Just use your brains Matt and ask yourself, how many guitars does McInturff
>sell a month or a year. Quite a few I believe, and to smart guys like you.
>Therefore, they would need an whole army of "real" luthiers hand carving
>tops and shaping necks with a rasp. Even Mr. McInturff would have to join in
>and get his fingers dirty. Just think of his payroll cost. If you believe
>this, you need serious help.
Are you saying the only choices are using unpowered hand
tools or going full blown CNC? Isn't it possible that
McInturff has partially automated several steps without the
aid of computers?
Fender built hundreds of thousands of guitars during their
glory years without the benefit of CNC. G&L's output is at
least equal to McInturff's, and they aren't using CNC. If
McInturff claims he doesn't use a CNC machine, why is
somebody gullible for believing it?
You've yet to make a good case against using CNC in the
evil twin®
<in...@zacharymusic.com> wrote:
>evil twinŽ <sh...@kc.rr.com> wrote:
>
>First of all, I don't just use unpowered hand tools. I use many hand power
>tools as well. Its highly doubtfull that McInturff does not use computers
>because a McInturff is a very different guitar from a G&L. Its much more
>complicated to build a McInturff. It has a carved arched top and a glued in
>set neck.
Yeah. So, what, those kinds of guitars couldn't be built
until computers came along? Gibson will be very surprised to
hear this.
>G&L guitars are built with an overhand pin router which is hand
>controlled but makes use of steel templates which guide the pin of the
>router. With G&Ls you don't need a computer to increase production since you
>can just as easily use the pin router.
You don't NEED a computer to do either guitar. Manufacturers
CHOOSE to use computers on some guitars to lower costs.
>If McInturffs were hand carved It would take a long time to finish each
>guitar
It already takes a long time, if you consider the entire
process. You're talking about adding time to one step of
that process, and I don't think it's unreasonable to believe
that it's happening.
>and the consistency would vary greatly.
Maybe. I imagine the consistency would vary as much as they
allowed the consistency to vary.
>Like I said before variability is desirable,
[blah, blah, blah]
Yeah, whatever.
>> Fender built hundreds of thousands of guitars during their
>> glory years without the benefit of CNC. G&L's output is at
>> least equal to McInturff's, and they aren't using CNC. If
>> McInturff claims he doesn't use a CNC machine, why is
>> somebody gullible for believing it?
>
>Someone is gullible because they did not take into consideration what it
>takes to build each style of guitar.
And you know he didn't take this into consideration the same
way you know what McInturff is doing, I guess.
>A bolt on Fender style guitar is very
>different from a set neck arch top with a figured top. Anyone who has some
>experience in guitar building woud pick up on this right away.
I picked up on it. They're very different. So? It sounds
like all you're really saying is one will cost more than the
other due to labor.
>The Fender guitar was designed from day one to be built on a
>non-computerized assembly line and that is what G&L is still doing.
Great. So, basically, you don't know what McInturff is
really doing - you're just speculating about what he's doing
based on the degree of difficulty and time involved.
>> You've yet to make a good case against using CNC in the
>> first place, and I think you've conveniently defined
>> "hand-crafted" in a way that allows you to use YOUR
>> machines, while slighting those who have more advanced
>> machines.
>
>To the contrary, I am not blaming anyone for using CNC.
You seem to have a major problem with it though, and you
constantly imply that it's inferior.
>I am simply saying
>that it results in an entirely different guitar.
They could take one of your guitars and cut a more perfect
clone of it than you can by hand, so I'm not sure what this
difference is you're talking about.
If I was given two guitars, one "hand made", and one cut on
a CNC, I wouldn't notice any difference due to the way they
were cut. Nobody would be able to hear any differences
arising from the two different methods. Any two pieces of
wood will have more inherent differences than those that
come from the method of shaping.
I do think I'm capable of making esthetic judgements about a
guitar without even touching it though - something you might
want to consider.
[snip]
> If you don't feel that
>handcrafted guitars are better than why do you think that virtually every
>manufacturer likes to imply that their guitars are handcrafted.
Well, I don't think virtually ever manufacturer implies
that. You may, but your views on how the world work are
unique and seemingly unchallenged by reality.
>They are almost ashamed to tell you that the guitar was virtually
>all built without human contact.
John Suhr's gone over his building process several times in
this newsgroup, and I never noted any shame. If anything, he
seemed to be very proud of all his fancy machines.
>According to this newsgroup they have nothing to be ashamed
>of. They have hundreds of supporters who apparently don't care how their
>guitars were made.
They care how it's made when it comes to things that
actually matter. Tone matters, comfort matters, playability
matters, and, in case nobody's told you yet, the way it
LOOKS matters.
Price also matters, and most people aren't willing to pay
several hundred more for an identical guitar just because
the manufacturer ignored the available technology and "hand"
crafted it. In all your arguments about the evils of mass
production, you're forgetting that guitars are instruments
to be PLAYED, preferably by as many people as possible, imo,
and not art pieces to be collected by the wealthy.
Matthew Ivaliotes
>On Fri, 14 Jan 2000 18:35:47 -0500, "Zachary Music"
><in...@zacharymusic.com> wrote:
>>Matthew, are you that gullible? I can see how these guys have no trouble
>>selling you their guitars. They must love guys like you.
>>I would be interested to know how you arrived at this information that
>>McInturff do not CNC their guitars.
Got it direct from terry McInturff. He posted it on a forum about his
guitars himself. Others I know have been to the factory and seen it on
a tour. He feels no need to lie about your company.
I quote:
"But, this does raise an important point....the point being that my gtrs
are about as "handmade" as you can get. In other words, if you order two
of my '57 necks, for instance, I can GUARANTEE that the overall neck
dimensions will always be within .010" consistent, in terms of
center-to-center thickness. Now, since every neck is hand carved, there
will be variations, to a degree, in the way that the overall neck profile
is shaped.
These variations are not only related to the personal style of the
craftsmen involved in neck carving...Keith McMurtrey, Dave Tebbins, or
your's truly...but also are related to the fact that, since the necks are
truly shaped by hand, and are NOT robotically shaped by computerized CNC
machines, the grain characteristics of each neck is taken into account by
the artists involved, and the neck is carved in order to make the best of
this incredible material that we have the honor to work with. So, while
the overall thickness can be maintained, by hand, to within that .010"
spec (and this is no mean feat!!!), the shoulders of each neck will be
just a tad bit different....for the reasons stated above.
This level of individual treatment extends to such things as the top carve
as well. We'll carve for maximum effect.
The argument can be made that it would be best if every gtr neck and top
was identical...as would be produced by computerised CNC routing centers
such as the Fidal, Haas, and many others.My appreciation for handwork is
probably an artifact of my repair and musician experiences. I REALLY LOVE
the subtle differences that handwork produces. Going the computerised path
would be more profitable. Oh, well.I know ALOT of great players and,
without exception, these players will gladly play any number of necks that
are in the same ballpark...the ballpark being measured in thousands of an
inch!This is what we produce, time after time.But, you can feel the subtle
differences.
For sure, "handmade" is NOT always better...unless the hands in question
are world-class.In this case, "handmade" is ALWAYS better....ALWAYS.But,
those hands have to be good, and be consistent.
I'm terribly proud of my team here. It's awfully headstrong to say this
but..my team here is the best that I've ever worked with, and I've worked
with a fair number of builders, and have seen alot of gtrs. I've worked on
or built well over 30,000 gtrs at this point.
I don't know about you, but I think that the minor variations, gtr to gtr,
are incredibly cool and valuable. If you have more than one of my gtrs,
you will know that each one has it's own personality."
This from the McInturff Forum at http://members.tripod.com/mcinturff/ in
the '1st archive of Mcinturff Guitars' group, the "(Adequate??) answers to
your questions thread.
Funny, at no point does Terry call you a liar. He also does a
*much* better job of making the case for handmade instruments than
you do, all without calling anyone gullible or stupid. You're just
slagging good people to make a name for
yourself.
>>Just use your brains Matt and ask yourself, how many guitars does McInturff
>>sell a month or a year. Quite a few I believe, and to smart guys like you.
Actually, not all that many.
>>Therefore, they would need an whole army of "real" luthiers hand carving
>>tops and shaping necks with a rasp. Even Mr. McInturff would have to join in
>>and get his fingers dirty. Just think of his payroll cost. If you believe
>>this, you need serious help.
No, you're just being an uninformed ninny. It's downright laughable.
>You've yet to make a good case against using CNC in the
>first place, and I think you've conveniently defined
>"hand-crafted" in a way that allows you to use YOUR
>machines, while slighting those who have more advanced
>machines.
And who can use their machines without leaving tool marks on the wood. I
could do that making a clock in shop class at age 13.
Matthew Ivaliotes
>Suhr does (or used to) outsource his painting. He's posted that info
>here before. Not that it really matters who sprays the guitar...
I'm not givin' you 5 bucks, man. :)
Matthew Ivaliotes
>Yeah. So, what, those kinds of guitars couldn't be built
>until computers came along? Gibson will be very surprised to
>hear this.
"If I can't do it, then surely that McInturff guy can't" Yeah, whatever.
>You don't NEED a computer to do either guitar. Manufacturers
>CHOOSE to use computers on some guitars to lower costs.
"If I can't do it, then surely that McInturff guy can't" Yeah, whatever.
>Maybe. I imagine the consistency would vary as much as they
>allowed the consistency to vary.
Which isn't very much. But Zachary won't believe that, because Terry is
good enough to avoid tool marks.
"If I can't do it, then surely that McInturff guy can't" Yeah, whatever.
>>Someone is gullible because they did not take into consideration what it
>>takes to build each style of guitar.
Apparently you're the one who doesn't know.
>And you know he didn't take this into consideration the same
>way you know what McInturff is doing, I guess.
He has no clue what McInturff is doing. He just assumes:
"If I can't do it, then surely that McInturff guy can't" Yeah, whatever.
>Great. So, basically, you don't know what McInturff is
>really doing - you're just speculating about what he's doing
>based on the degree of difficulty and time involved.
And because apparently, he can't do it. Terry's only been doing this
stuff for over 20 years, but he obviously is just a suit to Zachary.
Whatever.
>>To the contrary, I am not blaming anyone for using CNC.
>You seem to have a major problem with it though, and you
>constantly imply that it's inferior.
Which it ain't, IMO. Terry McInturff not only sems to know how to make
guitars better, he makes the argument for handcraftfing better and more
humbly than Zachary does...and I *still* don't totally buy it.
>If I was given two guitars, one "hand made", and one cut on
>a CNC, I wouldn't notice any difference due to the way they
>were cut. Nobody would be able to hear any differences
>arising from the two different methods. Any two pieces of
>wood will have more inherent differences than those that
>come from the method of shaping.
Agreed.
>I do think I'm capable of making esthetic judgements about a
>guitar without even touching it though - something you might
>want to consider.
Double agreed. Me too! Bye!
>John Suhr's gone over his building process several times in
>this newsgroup, and I never noted any shame. If anything, he
>seemed to be very proud of all his fancy machines.
As I think he should. By all accounts, they put out great guitars.
>They care how it's made when it comes to things that
>actually matter. Tone matters, comfort matters, playability
>matters, and, in case nobody's told you yet, the way it
>LOOKS matters.
Heh. Heh.
>Price also matters, and most people aren't willing to pay
>several hundred more for an identical guitar just because
>the manufacturer ignored the available technology and "hand"
>crafted it. In all your arguments about the evils of mass
>production, you're forgetting that guitars are instruments
>to be PLAYED, preferably by as many people as possible, imo,
>and not art pieces to be collected by the wealthy.
Nor eclectic little craft fair items to be handled cooed at, and put into
a corner. They are functional items, and the ones are best that function
best, by all the criteria you list above.
Zachary Music
he may have started with this method I don't believe he still does it. I
have talked to him before and I will do it again in a few weeks in LA. He
sells too many guitars to keep up the hand carving of necks and bodies.
Doesn't he realize that no one seems to care. You made it quite clear over
and over again.
Its interesting what Mcinturff is saying. He is basically making the same
point as I am about the benefits of handcrafting. But to you people its a
waste of his time since according to you it does not matter if the guitars
are CNC made or handcrafted.
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
Matthew Ivaliotes <lo...@uiuc.edu> wrote in message
news:HYVf4.23$tX3...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu...
evil twin®
Ivaliotes) wrote:
>evil twin <evil...@my-deja.com> writes:
>
>>Suhr does (or used to) outsource his painting. He's posted that info
>>here before. Not that it really matters who sprays the guitar...
>
>I'm not givin' you 5 bucks, man. :)
<sigh> Okay, back to flipping burgers it is then...
Zachary Music
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
Keyser Soze <back...@netexpress.net> wrote in message
news:EFFE7B8F11ACCAFF.BDF080E4...@lp.airnews.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2000 09:33:12 -0500, "Zachary Music"
> <in...@zacharymusic.com> wrote:
>
> >But to you people its a
> >waste of his time since according to you it does not matter if the
guitars
> >are CNC made or handcrafted.
>
> Some thoughts:
>
> 1. Is there a real and quantifiable difference in quality
> between a hand carved guitar versus a CNC carved guitar?
Please refer to the originator of this thread for a thourough explanation of
the difference between my guitars and what you are normally used to. Also I
invite you to refer to the Harmony Central reviews of my guitars. This
information is from individuals who I have never personally met and who
could have returned their Zachary guitars for a full refund.
>
> This is debatable.
It wouldn't be debatable if you played one of my guitars.
>
> 2. Is this perceived quality difference drastically different
> (or subtle)?
Quite drastic when referring to my guitars. I was very surprised after I
built my first guitar.
>
> It's subtle at best.
Nothing I do is subtle. You should know that by now.
>
> 3. Can most people discern hand carved from machine carved?
Even a comatose person would be able to discern my guitars from any machine
made one.
>
> I doubt it.
You may be hoping that. But you would be disappointed.
>
> 4. If we have the technology to create a fantastic product
> (with extremely good tolorances), then why not? Why cling to the old,
> laborious way of doing things if there's a better, more efficient way?
Remember my philosophy (and I know that you have been conditioned otherwise)
is that extremely good tolerances are not what makes a good musical
instrument.
>
> In my opinion, I think we ought to allow technology to
> do the work. If there are areas where it's absolutely critical for a
> human being to take care of the detail (such as fine sanding), then by
> all means. But carving necks and bodies????
Fine sanding is not guitar building. Anyone can do fine sanding. If human
talent and skill is available there is no need for technology.
Technology is just a very convenient way to make "guitar builders" out of
anyone.
Your thinking is diametrically apposed to mine.
I do however agree fully with your quote below.
>
>
>
>
> Backcrkr
>
> --
> The difference between men and women:
> A woman wants one man to satisfy her every need.
> A man wants every woman to satisfy his one need.
Darren
>G&L's output is at
>least equal to McInturff's, and they aren't using CNC.
>
I would think that G&L produces WAY more guitars than Terry.
I'd even bet the farm on it....
--
Darren
Darren
>Therefore, they would need an whole army of "real" luthiers hand carving
>tops and shaping necks with a rasp. Even Mr. McInturff would have to join in
>and get his fingers dirty.
Last I heard, Terry was 'getting his fingers dirty' every day. I'd
have a hard time believing that things are any different today.
--
Darren
Zachary Music
Let me further clarify a few things.
Harmony Central may not be totally credible but the two guys writing the
reviews are. They decided to write the reviews on their own without even my
authorization. They did not have to rave about the guitars because they
could have just returned them if they were not happy.
I always liked 24 fret fingerboard guitars since you can get two whole
octaves. If you play a lot of blues in E its nice to go all the way up to
the high E. With a shorter fingerboard you will not get better pickup
placement, I believe the opposite will be true. Especially with hunbuckers
you will get a muddy tone from the neck pickup because it will be too far
from the bridge. Also the two pickups will be too far from each other and
will not be able to interact the same way when used together. The reason you
get that interesting quack sound from a Strat is because when using two
pickups together there is a cancellation of frequencies. You can only get
this if you move the pickups close together. One of the guys writing the
review mentions this "just like a Strat sound" from two humbucking pickups.
The pickup placement is one of the more important aspects of my design. I
can get many different sounds from these two humbucking pickups. By
switching them either in humbucking and single coil mode and using them
together at the same time so that they phase each other out you can get many
interesting and different tones. Its quite amazing, but the pickups must be
moved close together to achieve this.
I don't put on a tone control because I have never used a tone control. I do
have the volume pot but with no capacitor. This means that the signal does
not have to go through two pots and with no capacitor if you turn down the
volume you also take away some of the highs. So the volume pot acts as a
tone control at the same time. This is also mentioned by one of the
reviewers.
Yes, I agree that there is more limited access to the higher frets. This is
because the neck pocket is much larger than on most other guitars. This has
two benefits.
1. The neck sits further in the body therefore it has a better center of
gravity. My guitars are never neck heavy and they balance on your strap or
thigh perfectly when you play.
2. The large neck pocket makes the neck joint very stable and it really
increases the resonance. My guitars really ring and are acoustically loud.
The neck joint will never move or shift.
Again, without playing my guitars many of these things may not be apparent
from the photos, but if you play one you will quickly realize what I am
saying.
--
Zachary Handcrafted Guitars www.zacharyguitars.com
Woodwind and Brass Instruments www.zacharymusic.com
E-mail in...@zacharymusic.com
Keyser Soze <back...@netexpress.net> wrote in message
news:CDF7D88B7ADC0882.541F3112...@lp.airnews.net...
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> On Sat, 15 Jan 2000 12:03:56 -0500, "Zachary Music"
> <in...@zacharymusic.com> wrote:
>
> >Also I
> >invite you to refer to the Harmony Central reviews of my guitars. This
> >information is from individuals who I have never personally met and who
> >could have returned their Zachary guitars for a full refund.
>
> Harmony Central's databases are not a credible source for
> getting factual data on guitars, amps, and effects. People rave over
> EVERYTHING. That being said, I did read the reviews of the Z-1
> guitar.
>
>
> >Remember my philosophy (and I know that you have been conditioned
otherwise)
>
> I visited your website, and checked everything out. You do
> indeed have a very strong philosophy. And I respect that. What
> you're trying to do is drastically different from what most of the
> rest of the guitar builders do.
>
> Someday I would enjoy playing one of your guitars. The ONLY
> things which I really don't care about your design are:
> a. The 24 fret fingerboard. I prefer 22 or 21 fret guitars
> (for better placement of the bass pickup).
> b. Lack of tone control.
> c. Lack of access to the top frets.
>
> Other than that, I applaud your effort at trying to create a
> unique instrument and to blaze your own path.
>
>
>
> Good luck to you!
Nadine & François
> > Are you saying the only choices are using unpowered hand
> > tools or going full blown CNC? Isn't it possible that
> > McInturff has partially automated several steps without the
> > aid of computers?
>
> First of all, I don't just use unpowered hand tools. I use many hand power
> tools as well.
Ahem... A stationary band saw is NOT a hand tool.
> because a McInturff is a very different guitar from a G&L. Its much more
> complicated to build a McInturff. It has a carved arched top and a glued in
> set neck. G&L guitars are built with an overhand pin router which is hand
> controlled but makes use of steel templates which guide the pin of the
> router. With G&Ls you don't need a computer to increase production since you
> can just as easily use the pin router.
So is the G&L better because of this? Also, I've never tool marks on any brand
of hand-made guitars. I'll see character, as McInturff puts it, which is a
great thing: something I can appreciate.
> Handcrafting or at
> least partially handcrafting would not be a problem if the number of units
> were kept low, but when you are building hundreds of guitars and sending
> them to hundreds of dealers around the world it would bog the whole process
> down and every McInturff would be drasticlly different. The public and the
> dealers would go nuts. You could never pin down what a McInturff was
> actually like since every one of them would be different. If you had to
> hand-carve arch tops, each one would be different. The way an artist can
> never paint the same picture twice.
You obviously don't know what you are talking about. If you write something
here, base it on facts. Also, it would seem that McInturff, for example, knows
how to hand build guitars consistently AND with no tool marks.
Matthew Ivaliotes
>McInturff explains very well what the benefits of handcrafting is. Although
>he may have started with this method I don't believe he still does it.
You're wrong.
>I have talked to him before and I will do it again in a few weeks in LA.
>He sells too many guitars to keep up the hand carving of necks and
>bodies.
You're wrong. He said that just a couple of days ago. Check your facts
before you go pontificating.
>Doesn't he realize that no one seems to care. You made it quite clear over
>and over again.
*yawn*
>Its interesting what Mcinturff is saying. He is basically making the same
>point as I am about the benefits of handcrafting.
Yet he does it without calling anyone brainwashed, stupid, or below him.
Go figure.
>But to you people its a
>waste of his time since according to you it does not matter if the guitars
>are CNC made or handcrafted.
Wrong. We're said that it hasn't been established one way or another. If
there is an advantage, it is felt by the individual. If the individual
doesn't feel any such advantage, that doesn't make them brainwashed. It
makes them a human being with perceptions and perspectives. So get over
it, and do your homework before saying how other people do their business.
Matthew Ivaliotes
><sigh> Okay, back to flipping burgers it is then...
And don't skimp on the fries this time.
Matthew Ivaliotes
>Keyser Soze <back...@netexpress.net> wrote in message
>> This is debatable.
>It wouldn't be debatable if you played one of my guitars.
Get...Over...Yourself!! People have played Terry McInturff guitars and
passed on them. He's one of the best hand crafters probably in the
history of the business. He's been doing it for over 20 years. He knows
what he's doing. Yet some people (and I know this might be shocking to
you) preferred something else. Let that sink in.
>Nothing I do is subtle. You should know that by now.
Certainly not from an expression of ego perspective.
>Your thinking is diametrically apposed to mine.
Yes. For instance, his is rooted in a sense of reality, proportion, and
reason.
Matthew Ivaliotes
>Harmony Central may not be totally credible but the two guys writing the
>reviews are. They decided to write the reviews on their own without even my
>authorization. They did not have to rave about the guitars because they
>could have just returned them if they were not happy.
This is true of everyont who ever bought a Squier Strat or DOD pedal at
Guitar Center, yet there are raves about those, too.
>I always liked 24 fret fingerboard guitars since you can get two whole
>octaves. If you play a lot of blues in E its nice to go all the way up to
>the high E. With a shorter fingerboard you will not get better pickup
>placement, I believe the opposite will be true. Especially with hunbuckers
>you will get a muddy tone from the neck pickup because it will be too far
>from the bridge.
I couldn't disagree more. I've played both kinds, and own bith 24 and 22
fret guitars, and the 22 fret guitars have better bass pickup tone hands
down. No contest.