Jack Zucker - Gearhead or Musician?
Rob Dobson
Not so very long ago, "Jack A. Zucker" <pj...@en.com> wrote:
>Isn't this supposed to be a group about making music ? Almost all I ever >see is stuff about equipment. Everyone wants to know if t=
hey use this or >that amp, pedal, guitar, etc., will they sound like Eric Johnson, SRV, >or Jimi Hendrix? The answer is an emphatic =
NO!
>
>The only way you will ever sound like those guys is to spend hour after >hour practicing. Yes, this involves sweat, dedication, and=
spirit. There >are no glossy catalogs available for selecting this skill. But when you >have "arrived", the rewards far exceed any =
boutique amp, guitar, or >pedal by far.
>
>-Jaz (It's in the fingers)
Since posting these comments, Mr. Zucker has favored us with many
lengthy articles about amps and other gear(albeit some of them useful)
and absolutely nothing about how we might develop our skills as
musicians.
So Jack, if it really is "in the fingers" and buying this or that amp or
pedal WON'T make us sound like Eric Johnson, SRV et al, then why the
lengthy dissertations about Matchless, Dr. Z, etc and how they can give
us "that SRV tone" or that "Eric Johnson violin tone"? More than a
little hypocritical don't you think?
Just an observation...
Stevie Rob
BTW Jack, do you have any affiliation with the Dr.Z company? Come clean
now.
Port'o'Chael
In article <4naho5$d...@mongol.sasknet.sk.ca>, Rob Dobson
<za...@mailhost.sasknet.sk.ca> wrote:
> Since posting these comments, Mr. Zucker has favored us with many
> lengthy articles about amps and other gear(albeit some of them useful)
> and absolutely nothing about how we might develop our skills as
> musicians.
Oh, Christ, give it a rest! Jaz has contributed a lot of useful
material to this group; a lot more than I've seen YOUR name on.
I may not always agree with his opinions, but at least the dis-
cussion is centered on guitar-related issues, whether equipment
or music related.
Go troll somewhere else.
---Michael...
_____________________________ ___________________________
_____________________________BGSC___________________________
My opinions are mine only, though they SHOULD be everyone's!
Jack A. Zucker
Rob Dobson wrote:
OK ,
Fair enough.
Let's discuss ways to look at the B/C polychord. I hear this chord as a Cmaj7#9#11
chord C E G B D# F#. This chord is sometimes useful in jazz or blues as a
suspension of the I (maj) chord as in "| Dm7 G7b9 | B/C Cmaj9 |" and is sometimes
referred to as a Cdim(+7) chord. Thinking of it as a dim chord yields some really
interesting symetrical riffs based off the whole/half dim scale (off of C root)
except this has the Bb instead of the B Natural. That doesn't seem to matter so
much as the Bb tends to be a passing tone anyway. Another way to look at it would
be as a 6th mode of E harmonic minor. This is a common device used by John
Abercrombi, Pat Metheny, Mike Brecker and many others.
Any additional thoughts would be appreciated.
-Jaz
--
>
> Jack A. Zucker | ESP Music
> j...@en.com or | Voice: 216 349 5881 (home)
> Jack....@software.rockwell.com | Voice: 216 646 7796 (work)
> | Fax: 216 646 7766 (work)
SEFSTRAT
<<Another way to look at it would
be as a 6th mode of E harmonic minor. This is a common device used by John
Abercrombi, Pat Metheny, Mike Brecker and many others.
Any additional thoughts would be appreciated.>>
Yeah, just like the riff in the Stones' "satisfaction".
SEFS...@AOL.com
SEFSTRAT
Stevie Rob said:
<<Since posting these comments, Mr. Zucker has favored us with many
lengthy articles about amps and other gear(albeit some of them useful)
and absolutely nothing about how we might develop our skills as
musicians.
So Jack, if it really is "in the fingers" and buying this or that amp or
pedal WON'T make us sound like Eric Johnson, SRV et al, then why the
lengthy dissertations about Matchless, Dr. Z, etc and how they can give
us "that SRV tone" or that "Eric Johnson violin tone"? More than a
little hypocritical don't you think?>>
===================================
Stevie, you're setting yourself up........I've talked to someone who's
heard Jack play, and he is apparently one hot jazz/blues guitarist. I
have a feeling that Larry Coryell wouldn't have had him as a student
otherwise.
Practice. Tat' the advice Jack gave, what else could he tell you?
Steve
SEFS...@AOL.com
Rob Dobson
In article <319931...@en.com>, "Jack A. Zucker" <j...@en.com> says:
>
>Rob Dobson wrote:
>OK ,
>Fair enough.
>
>Let's discuss ways to look at the B/C polychord. I hear this chord as a Cmaj7#9#11
>chord C E G B D# F#. This chord is sometimes useful in jazz or blues as a
>suspension of the I (maj) chord as in "| Dm7 G7b9 | B/C Cmaj9 |" and is sometimes
>referred to as a Cdim(+7) chord. Thinking of it as a dim chord yields some really
>interesting symetrical riffs based off the whole/half dim scale (off of C root)
>except this has the Bb instead of the B Natural. That doesn't seem to matter so
>Abercrombi, Pat Metheny, Mike Brecker and many others.
>
>Any additional thoughts would be appreciated.
>
>
Look out John Sheehy, I think Jack's gonna give you a good run...
Ouch! Ouch! Ouch! Uncle! Enough already Jack. It looks like I stuck my foot in it.
I was obviously out of line with my earlier comments. My criticism was
unwarranted, but maybe Jack can admit his slightly self-righteous post about
too many gear articles and not enough music-related info was out of line.
Frankly, I'd like to hear someone with Jack's experience and knowledge teach
a lowly WW like me how to become a better player. I know that buying a Dr.Z
amp might make my minor pentatonic boxes sound better (and would endear Jack to
his neighbor), but so what. How about some tips on how to emancipate the
multitude of pentatonic slaves that are out there (maybe on a slightly more
rudimentary level than what's posted above...).
My apologies to Jack Zucker.
Stevie Rob
(Heretic at Large)
Jack A. Zucker
Rob Dobson wrote:
>
> My criticism was
> unwarranted, but maybe Jack can admit his slightly self-righteous post about
> too many gear articles and not enough music-related info was out of line.
Yeah, I admit that even I can have flaws :-) I'll also admit to more than my
share of obsessing over equipment :-)
>
> Frankly, I'd like to hear someone with Jack's experience and knowledge teach
> a lowly WW like me how to become a better player. I know that buying a Dr.Z
> amp might make my minor pentatonic boxes sound better (and would endear Jack to
OK, I'll follow up with a few tidbits
-Jaz
Fulltone
Pentatonic slaves????
Count me in.....especially when you hear what Scott Henderson, Jeff Beck,
Robben Ford, and the esteemed Eric Johnson do with them on a regular
basis.
Jack A. Zucker
Guys, here's a simple lesson on pentatonics:
(Examples utilize G maj pentatonic)
The 2 most common ways of using the pentatonic are:
Blues : 1 b3 4 5 b7 (over dom7 or min7 chord) (E G A B D)
Country : 1 2 3 5 6 (over maj or dom7th) (G A B D E)
Note that the above scales are exactly the same notes. The blues scale
is actually the 5th mode of pentatonic major
Another cool usage of the pentatonic scales are modal applications where
the root of the chord does not corrospond to the root of the pentatonic
scale. For example:
| Dm7 | G7 |
Typically, a rocker will lay all over a D blues scale (F Pentatonic)
forever. Instead, look at applying the pentatonic scale to this chord
progression on other than the root of the Dmin. For example, try using E
blues (G Pent), or A blues (C Pent). These give you some nice modal
flavors that end up suggesting the upper extensions of the chords
instead of lower extensions. Eric Johnson does many of his speed riffs
utilizing sequences of several pentatonic scales such as the F, G, and
C pentatonic scales over a Dmin tonality.
Another example would be over a resolving chord progression:
| Dm7 | G7 | Cmaj7 | % |
Here, I like to do something like use a A blues scale (C Pent) over the
Dm7 chord, Bb blues scale (Db Pent) over the G7 chord, and B Blues (D
pent) over the C chord. Why does this work ? Analyze the notes in the
scales and you will find out that C Pentatonic (C D E G A) gives you the
b7, root, 9th, 11th and 5th of the Dm7 chord, Db pentatonic gives you
the #4 #5 b7 b9 #9 over the G7 chord and D pentatonic gives you the 9th,
3rd, #11, 6, (maj)7 of the Cmaj chord. What's cool about this sequence
is that as the chords change, you simply move your blues riffs up a 1/2
step.
Frank Gambale, Eric Johnson, Larry Carlton, Chick Corea, etc., all use
"devices" like these (and many others) to come up with interesting
sounding material.
Check it out and forgive any typos. (It's late here). If I've made any,
please correct and I'll repost corrections tomorrow.
Later,
Don Gauthier
Here are some suggestions to help your journey from "boxed pentatonics"
playing to playing with greater freedom.
1. A good teacher!
2. A good video: The Blues from Rock to Jazz by Don Mock
3. A good book: The Advancing Guitarist by Mick Goodrick
4. A good book: Guitar Lore by Dennis Sandole (better with a teacher than
solo but not essential)
CAVEAT: a good player does not constitute a good teacher!
A good alternative or even addition to the above mentioned video would be
to pick up Frank Gambale's Guitar Technique Volume one and /or two or
both for that matter ( I'm not sure if the title is correct).
With about one thousand hours of serious, dedicated, organized and
focused practice you will be far from a "boxed in" pentatonic player.
Organize yourself! Break down your practices into sections so that you
can focus on certain topics and ideas. Mentally prepare for your practice
before you start to practice. Plan out your weeks and months ( set
milestones for yourself) of practices and you can decide where you want
to develop and when.
In addition to these ideas, getting a good practice setup is super! (i.e.
a metronome (something for timing is vital)) You could get fancy and get
a midi system so that you practice with a "band". This "band" you never
need to feed them or give them your beer :-) Practicing/jamming with
talented players is challenging and helps push you to greater heights.
A very good idea is to revisit the fundamentals such as finger placement,
picking methods, posture and touch (i.e. how you strike the string with
your pick, how hard you bring your fretting finger(s) into contact with
the fretboard). You could concentrate on eliminating all extraneous,
undesirable sounds produced from strumming, picking, fretting, sliding,
bending, and chording etc... .
I could go on and on but .... times a runnin'
Don
Thomas F Brown
In article <319931...@en.com> "Jack A. Zucker" <j...@en.com> writes:
>
>Let's discuss ways to look at the B/C polychord. I hear this chord as a Cmaj7#9#11
>chord C E G B D# F#. This chord is sometimes useful in jazz or blues as a
>suspension of the I (maj) chord as in "| Dm7 G7b9 | B/C Cmaj9 |" and is sometimes
>referred to as a Cdim(+7) chord. Thinking of it as a dim chord yields some really
>interesting symetrical riffs based off the whole/half dim scale (off of C root)
>except this has the Bb instead of the B Natural. That doesn't seem to matter so
>much as the Bb tends to be a passing tone anyway. Another way to look at it would
>be as a 6th mode of E harmonic minor. This is a common device used by John
>Abercrombi, Pat Metheny, Mike Brecker and many others.
>
>Any additional thoughts would be appreciated.
I usually think of it as a diminished chord too. One place I often use it
is as the first chord of Misty (in the key of C). I like the suspension
in your example too. I use that a lot in bossa tunes for some reason.
Another possibility for B/C is to use it as a B7/b9. I don't do this
too much. I prefer to include the seventh in there on that chord.
Karen-Marlies Schenck
SEFSTRAT wrote:
>
> Stevie Rob said:
> <<Since posting these comments, Mr. Zucker has favored us with many
> lengthy articles about amps and other gear(albeit some of them useful)
> and absolutely nothing about how we might develop our skills as
> musicians.
Aren't we kidding ourselves here. Isn't it true that talking gear is one of
every guitarist's Favourite passtimes? Even the "great" ones, who should be
"beyond gear".
I know I enjoy it, and that it doesn't harm me as a player.
Walter Broes
Jack A. Zucker
Thomas F Brown wrote:
>
> In article <319931...@en.com> "Jack A. Zucker" <j...@en.com> writes:
> >
> >Let's discuss ways to look at the B/C polychord. I hear this chord as a Cmaj7#9#11
> >chord C E G B D# F#. This chord is sometimes useful in jazz or blues as a
> >suspension of the I (maj) chord as in "| Dm7 G7b9 | B/C Cmaj9 |" and is sometimes
> >referred to as a Cdim(+7) chord.
> too much. I prefer to include the seventh in there on that chord.
Noone has mentioned the D13b9 chord ! In fact it can be used as a substitute for B7,
D7, F7 or Ab7 !!!
Think about it!
Jack A. Zucker
Jack A. Zucker wrote:
>
> Noone has mentioned the D13b9 chord ! In fact it can be used as a substitute for B7,
> D7, F7 or Ab7 !!!
The "it" in the above sentence refers to the original B/C chord.
Jack A. Zucker
All the above guys are fantastic but I think Henderson, Ford, and
Johnson all do MUCH more than play pentatonic scales :-)
-Jaz
SEFSTRAT
<< A good book: The Advancing Guitarist by Mick Goodrick>>
Amen. What a GREAT book. Not really technical; more of an "open your
eyes and think differently" thing.
Steve
SEFS...@AOL.com
Mark Garvin
I think that the idea is to develop a level of comfort with your
gear so that you can forget about it and play. Otherwise it is
a constant distraction, and will detract from your performance.
MGarvin
Carl Christensen
On 16 May 1996 09:05:08 -0400, sefs...@aol.com (SEFSTRAT) wrote:
><< A good book: The Advancing Guitarist by Mick Goodrick>>
>
>Amen. What a GREAT book. Not really technical; more of an "open your
>eyes and think differently" thing.
That what I though this newsgroup was gonna do!
Carl Christensen /~~\_/~\ ,,, For music fun in Windows
E-mail: ca...@netaxs.com | #=#==========# | download alcomp11.zip
C/C++/Delphi/VB Consultant \__/~\_/ ``` at a popular FTP site!
Catch my WWW page at --> http://www.netaxs.com/~carl
Rob Dobson
BINGO! The gear reviews are great if you've perfected your craft, but
this is the kind of stuff I'd like to see more of in this group. For you
grizzled veterans, this post probably states the obvious. I printed
this off and am going to post it in my practice area.
Thanks Don.
Stevie Rob
(Reformed Heretic.... hey...band name?)
Rob Dobson
In article <319A97...@en.com>, "Jack A. Zucker" <j...@en.com> says:
>
>Guys, here's a simple lesson on pentatonics:
>
>(Examples utilize G maj pentatonic)
>The 2 most common ways of using the pentatonic are:
>
>Check it out and forgive any typos. (It's late here). If I've made any,
>please correct and I'll repost corrections tomorrow.
>
(SNIP)
>Later,
>-Jaz
>
I realize that it takes a lot of time to type this kind of article
(and it's less exciting for you than reviewing new gear), but there's
a lot of players out there who benefit when you share these "simple
lessons". I can't wait to try out these suggestions. Much appreciated
Jack.
Thanks man!
Stevie Rob
(Give me 2 weeks and then watch for my first album)
Rob Dobson
In article <4ndk9k$s...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>, tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) says:
>
>In article <319931...@en.com> "Jack A. Zucker" <j...@en.com> writes:
>>
>>Let's discuss ways to look at the B/C polychord. I hear this chord as a Cmaj7#9#11
>>chord C E G B D# F#. This chord is sometimes useful in jazz or blues as a
>>suspension of the I (maj) chord as in "| Dm7 G7b9 | B/C Cmaj9 |" and is sometimes
>>interesting symetrical riffs based off the whole/half dim scale (off of C root)
>>except this has the Bb instead of the B Natural. That doesn't seem to matter so
>>much as the Bb tends to be a passing tone anyway. Another way to look at it would
>>be as a 6th mode of E harmonic minor. This is a common device used by John
>>Abercrombi, Pat Metheny, Mike Brecker and many others.
>>
>>Any additional thoughts would be appreciated.
>
>I usually think of it as a diminished chord too. One place I often use it
>is as the first chord of Misty (in the key of C). I like the suspension
>in your example too. I use that a lot in bossa tunes for some reason.
>
>too much. I prefer to include the seventh in there on that chord.
>
WE'RE NOT WORTHY... WE'RE NOT WORTHY...
Stevie Wayne
Romain BIDAUT
In <319B04...@en.com> "Jack A. Zucker" <j...@en.com> writes:
>
>Jack A. Zucker wrote:
>>
>> Noone has mentioned the D13b9 chord ! In fact it can be used as a
substitute for B7,
>> D7, F7 or Ab7 !!!
>
>The "it" in the above sentence refers to the original B/C chord.
>
I actually liked the weird suspension created by sub a d7 ot b7 with
D13b9!!!, better than B/C!
--------...@ix.netcom.com-----------------------------
Rob Dobson
Or worse, you blame your shortcomings as a musician on "not having the
right guitar, amp, effects, strings, pick, cord, strap..."
Stevie Rob
Eric Blitstein
Jaz gets my support. He has lots of opinions but they are based on
knowledge not speculation. What more can you want that an informed
opinion even if it's not the same as yours.
Jack A. Zucker
Giri Iyengar wrote:
>
> Playing off this chord over a bassline pedaling in E also gives
> some real cool sounds. the minor3/9th/maj7 tones yield some very
> strong take-off points for soloing.
> ..Giri
What chord are you referring to ?
-Jaz
--
Giri Iyengar
SEFSTRAT
This thread is silly. "Gearhead" and "Musician" today are synonyms.....
Steve
SEFS...@AOL.com
SEFSTRAT
<<Jaz gets my support. He has lots of opinions but they are based on
knowledge not speculation. What more can you want that an informed
opinion even if it's not the same as yours.>>
This is a rhetorical question, right?
What more could I want? How 'bout an informed opinion that is EXACTLY IN
ACCORDANCE WITH THE WAY I SEE THINGS?
Kidding. KIDDING!
Steve
SEFS...@AOL.com
Thomas F Brown
In article <319B03...@en.com> "Jack A. Zucker" <j...@en.com> writes:
>Thomas F Brown wrote:
>> Another possibility for B/C is to use it as a B7/b9. I don't do this
>> too much. I prefer to include the seventh in there on that chord.
>
>Noone has mentioned the D13b9 chord ! In fact it can be used as a substitute for B7,
>D7, F7 or Ab7 !!!
Isn't that what I just said re B7/b9? Except where's the 13th?
Jack A. Zucker
B/C == C B D# F#.
B is the 13th of D.
Speaking of standard notation, what's with the slash between the 7 and the b9 ?
I've been reading music for many years and have never seen a slash used in that
manor. :-)
William G. Sacks
SEFSTRAT (sefs...@aol.com) wrote:
: << A good book: The Advancing Guitarist by Mick Goodrick>>
: Amen. What a GREAT book. Not really technical; more of an "open your
: eyes and think differently" thing.
Thirds to that: _The Advancing Guitarist_ is a series of short
meditations on theoretical issues which has layers and layers of depth to
it. _Highly_ recommended to those who are looking to take their
improvising in a new direction.
David Roach
SEFSTRAT (sefs...@aol.com) wrote:
: This thread is silly. "Gearhead" and "Musician" today are synonyms.....
: Steve
: SEFS...@AOL.com
Yeah, remember all those stupid Deion Sanders commercials?
"Gearhead or musician?"
"Both."
"Both?"
"Yeah, both!"
DR
Carl Fiadino
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@en.com> wrote:
>
>-Jaz
>
It's a chord that only Geri can hear in his head.
Jack A. Zucker
Is noone interested in this discussion ?
Mark Garvin
>Is noone interested in this discussion ?
That'll teach you to post non-techno stuff, Jack.
Can you get a Van Halen sound using them polychord things?
One of the tough things about getting true polychordal effects on
guitar is the tight spacing. Much easier with separate sounds and
more distance between the registers. I agree that it is convenient
to think of many altered chords (like a Ma7+9+11) as a polychord,
but on one guitar it often sounds more homogenous than I would like.
Given a few more instruments, it's interesting to delegate strongly
focused chords to separate instrument groups (like strings vs winds).
The freedom of voicing allows use of strongly reinforced 1-5's in
the bottom of both groups to really get a lot of tension into the
voicing.
I would imagine that you listen to some modern classical music as
well. Most know of Ives' more static polychordal work (the 2nd
movement of Three Places in New England comes to mind). But another
one to check is Peter Mennin. Not widely known, but a great
craftsman with polychords. The 8th and 9th symphonies are a bit
austere for most ears, but they illustrate some of the concepts I
was alluding to. The 7th is more accessible but was only available
on vinyl. Mennin was president of Juilliard for quite a while,
by the way. Not that he needs academic credentials to write well.
MGarvin
Giri Iyengar
Well, it might be different for most of you, but I don't have any
friends who give a shit about analog delays, Sylvania 6L6s, oxblood
grillcloth, etc. etc. This is where I come to chat about stuff I
find interesting. True, all gear-talk is mostly irrelevant when it
comes down to playing and learning to play, but I love it, what can
I say?
I do appreciate and participate in musical chatter as well, but the
gearhead bit of this group is as important to me as anything else.
Maybe some more of you should stagger over to r.m.m.g.jazz and start
it up. Even there, you get a lot of posts discussing archtops, etc.
Where else can you get access to such a wealth of information and
experience?
..Giri
Giri Iyengar
Carl Fiadino wrote:
> >What chord are you referring to ?
> >-Jaz
Sorry, Jaz, I forget. Obviously, it was a chord that
contained F#, G and D#. And I mentioned that those
notes sounded great over a bass E pedal, and provided
great take-off points for thematic statements or soloing.
> It's a chord that only Geri can hear in his head.
It's Viniger, goddammit! For the last time, it's Geri Viniger!
Giri Iyengar
Rob Dobson wrote:
> How about some tips on how to emancipate the
> multitude of pentatonic slaves that are out there
A simple method to expand your playing and ears. Instantly! ;-)
Scofield mentions this in some article or the other, but it's
certainly not anything new.
Use a tape recorder or something to record a simple vamp in,
say, Gm. Now you can play the Gm pentatonic scale over this,
right? Now try playing other pentatonics over this. For starters,
play the 5 minor pentatonic scales that contain a G. These would
be G, A, C, D,and E. Try resolving to G for each scale. Try
playing all these scales from the same position, say, III.
..Giri
Joe Bac
A long time ago, when I first started learning music theory, I had a good
friend of mine who ventured off into quarter tones. I tried to make sense
out of it but my guitar just sounded out of tune. The 1/2 step voicings
can come across this way - unless one learns how to use dissonance tastefully
and effectively. The first chord I learned that had a neat effect was the
ol' Hendrix style major/minor 3rd chord. Even though one can get carried
away with moving this chord around within a given key, I usually will only
use it for the tonic chord. Within the ol' I/IV/V, I like to use a 9th for
the IV and/or V - sometimes a minor ninth sounds good. I know this doesn't
have a heck of a lot to do with 1/2 step voicings, but it's a way to get
one started.
--
|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<|
| Joseph G. Bac CSO Americas |
| Systems Engineering Manager Phone: 408 447-7190 |
| Hewlett-Packard Co. Fax: 408 447-5254 |
| 19091 Pruneridge Ave. MS 46LR Email: joe...@cup.hp.com |
| Cupertino, CA 95014 HPDESK: Joe_Bac@HP4700 |
|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<|
Jack A. Zucker
Mark Garvin wrote:
>
> In <319E60...@en.com> "Jack A. Zucker" <j...@en.com> writes:
>
> >Is noone interested in this discussion ?
>
> That'll teach you to post non-techno stuff, Jack.
> Can you get a Van Halen sound using them polychord things?
>
Well, everyone was complaining that all I ever talk about is gear
and as soon as the going gets tough, the wimps drop out :-)
> One of the tough things about getting true polychordal effects on
> guitar is the tight spacing. Much easier with separate sounds and
> more distance between the registers.
...Or Allen Holdsworth's fingers :-)
> I agree that it is convenient
> to think of many altered chords (like a Ma7+9+11) as a polychord,
> but on one guitar it often sounds more homogenous than I would like.
...Actually, I think of it the other way around. I never think in terms
of the polychord. I always think in terms of what altered chord the
polychord yields. For example:
C/C - CMaj
Db/C - Dbmaj7, C Locrian
D/C - Cmaj7#11, D7
Eb/C - Cm7
E/C - Cmaj7#5
F/C - F
F#/C - F#7 Alt, C7Alt
G/C - CMaj9
Ab/C - Abmaj, C Phrygian
A/C - C13b9
Bb/C - C9sus/Gm7
B/C - Cmaj7#9#11
This way, I can more easily digest the chord progression than to think in terms
of the polychords.
>
> Given a few more instruments, it's interesting to delegate strongly
> focused chords to separate instrument groups (like strings vs winds).
> The freedom of voicing allows use of strongly reinforced 1-5's in
> the bottom of both groups to really get a lot of tension into the
> voicing.
...Spoken like a composer :-)
>
> I would imagine that you listen to some modern classical music as
> well.
Elliot Carter for one. Lots of polytonal stuff. I'm reminded of the jam session
I had a few years back where one beret wearing, bearded, hippie jazz musician
exclaimed..."Hey man, does it have to be a tune ?"
Mark Garvin
>A long time ago, when I first started learning music theory, I had a good
>friend of mine who ventured off into quarter tones. I tried to make sense
>out of it but my guitar just sounded out of tune. The 1/2 step voicings
Hi Joe, Yeah, it's tough to make that stuff work on guitar, but
there are some notes that benefit from 1/4 tone inflections, even
if it's just in passing.
There was a company that made a guitar with alternate swappable
fret boards. Pretty clever.
>can come across this way - unless one learns how to use dissonance tastefully
>and effectively. The first chord I learned that had a neat effect was the
>ol' Hendrix style major/minor 3rd chord. Even though one can get carried
>away with moving this chord around within a given key, I usually will only
>use it for the tonic chord. Within the ol' I/IV/V, I like to use a 9th for
>the IV and/or V - sometimes a minor ninth sounds good. I know this doesn't
>have a heck of a lot to do with 1/2 step voicings...
Actually, that chord (the Hendrix Foxy Lady chord) *does* fit into the
discussion on polychords, as do many other conventional altered chords.
The Hendrix chord is referred to as a 7+9, or as you pointed out, as a
major/minor 7. Depends on which school you're from. Many classical
composers don't know the term 'aug 9', since the interval is just a
minor 3rd to them.
Anyway, combining a major chord with another major chord a minor 3rd
up results in a 7+9. In other words, combining an E major with a G
major = E7+9.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
For anyone wanting to hear the effect of polychords, try this:
Have another guitarist play a B chord. You play an E chord.
The result will be a tightly clustered Emaj9. Beautiful sound.
Another would be Emin against Bmin, resulting in an Emin9.
These examples are far more consonant than most. Expect some
serious dissonance on many other combos.
MGarvin
John Sheehy
Giri Iyengar <giye...@aec004.ve.ford.com> writes:
What I sometimes do (but not frequently enough) is play a fixed group of
notes over a moving bottom. For instance (in the case of pentatonics),
I will play, say, c major pentatonic over a diatonic cycle in the Key of
C major (C-d-e-F-G-a-bdim-c-etc or C-F-bdim-e-a-d-G-C-etc), or perhaps a
chromatic movement of a certain type of chord. I think that to stretch
your mind this way once in a while is good, because you approach the
music from a different angle than you usually do. I do this more often
with drones of just two notes an octave apart, in sort of bass/snare
drum patterns. The drone will go through some cycle that covers all
twelve chromatic notes, while I stick to one set of notes. Things get
kind of interesting if you play a diatonic major scale, and you get to
the five "antimodes", or if you play a wholetone scale, or diminished
scale, and the pattern just transposes itself a lot. So much to try, so
short a life.
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsh...@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Chris Thomas
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@en.com> wrote:
>Giri Iyengar wrote:
>>
>> Playing off this chord over a bassline pedaling in E also gives
>> some real cool sounds. the minor3/9th/maj7 tones yield some very
>> strong take-off points for soloing.
>> ..Giri
>
>
>-Jaz
Just add a b9, and walla, you have the chromatic chord. One of
the easiest to improvise on. Never a wrong note.
--
--------------------------
Relax. Have a cigar.
Chris cth...@cldx.com
SEFSTRAT
<<What I sometimes do (but not frequently enough) is play a fixed group of
notes over a moving bottom. For instance (in the case of pentatonics),
I will play, say, c major pentatonic over a diatonic cycle in the Key of
C major (C-d-e-F-G-a-bdim-c-etc or C-F-bdim-e-a-d-G-C-etc), or perhaps a
chromatic movement of a certain type of chord. >>
Of all people, James Taylor is great at that. Nortice how often he
repeats a phrase or a line or a chord, note-for-note, but against a
different harmonic backdrop.
Steve
SEFS...@AOL.com
Giri Iyengar
Mark Garvin wrote:
> One of the tough things about getting true polychordal effects on
> guitar is the tight spacing. Much easier with separate sounds and
> more distance between the registers. I agree that it is convenient
> to think of many altered chords (like a Ma7+9+11) as a polychord,
> but on one guitar it often sounds more homogenous than I would like.
> snip <><and a lot of other neat stuff, as always.>
This is actually one focus of my current (just starting) experiments
with multiple capos (the one-for-each-string kind, what are they called?),
soon to be augmented (:-)) with a Hipshot Trilogy bridge. The goal is
to come up with a tuning, Trilogy setup, and capo placement (or many of each)
that will let me write and play entire statements with really stretched
(for the guitar) voicings. Add a few judicious harmonics and we really
might have something there. I'm starting out with some simple stuff I've
already written, and plan to move on to some standards, and then take it
from there. I'm using 2 capos right now. It's surprisingly hard to move
your hand over the capo to a different chord on the other side. The Trilogy
will probably have to be used rather minimally, since too much switching
will throw everything out of tune.
I've already been working on writing similar stuff for multiple guitars,
so that helps.
But it really is quite amazing what you can do with a 2-guitar rhythm section
if you throw out the idea that they must both play reasonably similar stuff.
Any suggestions for neat close-voiced chords, people? (On regular guitar).
..Giri "squeezing a life in between a living"
Mark Garvin
>Mark Garvin wrote:
>> One of the tough things about getting true polychordal effects on
>> guitar is the tight spacing. Much easier with separate sounds and
>> more distance between the registers.
In <31A0EE...@en.com> "Jack A. Zucker" <j...@en.com> writes:
>...Or Allen Holdsworth's fingers :-)
Got that right! Wouldn't it be nice to be able to wrap your fingers
around the neck three times?
>> MG
>> I agree that it is convenient
>> to think of many altered chords (like a Ma7+9+11) as a polychord,
>> but on one guitar it often sounds more homogenous than I would like.
> JAZ
>...Actually, I think of it the other way around. I never think in terms
>of the polychord. I always think in terms of what altered chord the
>polychord yields. For example:
I have that argument with 'professors' and composer friends once in
a while. The usual academic contention is that true polychords or
bitonal chords imply two (or more) distinct focal points, and that
guitar- type voicings are better referred to as altered chords. One
prof at Manhattan School charmingly refers to extended or altered
chord components as 'dirt' <g>. As in 'throw some dirt into that chord'.
There are a couple reasons why I find it convenient to break
complex chords into triadic subsets:
1. It makes it easier to find quick voicings.
2. Sometimes makes the 'parent' scales more obvious.
Great that you had the patience to note the following examples.
I hope you don't mind if I intersperse some comments. Some of
this is not intended to dispute your comments so much as to
help poor insomniacs.
>C/C - CMaj
>Db/C - Dbmaj7, C Locrian
Why just maj7? How about the +9/m3 and +4? I usually relate two
immed.adjacent major chords to a mode of harmonic minor (phrygian #3)
rather than locrian.
>D/C - Cmaj7#11, D7
Probably worth mentioning lydian mode in relation to majors separated
by a whole step.
>Eb/C - Cm7
How about C7+9? The classic 'Hendrix polychord' <g>
Eb 6 b9 is probably too obscure to worry about.
>E/C - Cmaj7#5
>F/C - F
I'm curious about why you've treated this differently from G/C below(?)
Why not Fmaj9? Granted, though, it's a pretty strong F Ionian tonality:
C 6, 11 doesn't make it.
>F#/C - F#7 Alt, C7Alt
One of my favorites. Ives also loved tritone displacements. Note to
others: by 'alt', Jack means a 7th chord with altered 9th and 5th
components. It bears mentioning that the +9 and +5 are not truly
spelled out in this polychord, but the most common choice of scale
would be a diminished (which *does* have the +9 and +5). A diminished
scale will work equally well with any combination of minors and majors
voiced a tritone apart.
>G/C - CMaj9
See above. I've suggested in another post that those wondering about
polychords start here. Play a G and have a friend play a C. I used
to voice chords like that for some of my rock bands. Great sound,
especially with amps on opposite sides of the stage...for that true
polytonal effect.
>Ab/C - Abmaj, C Phrygian
Or could be Ab Maj7+5. C phrygian?...hmmm...yes, but with a b4. At
least that's how I'd relate to the scale--the chord being Maj/min.
I personally prefer to look at the scale as a 'phrygian b4' rather
than a mode of lydian diminished. The latter sounds silly, since
lydian is already a mode.
>A/C - C13b9
>Bb/C - C9sus/Gm7
Or C11. Interesting that you dropped the Gm7 in there. How about Gm6?
>B/C - Cmaj7#9#11
OK, Jack...You can start on the minors and maj/min combos now. <g>
>This way, I can more easily digest the chord progression than to think in terms
>of the polychords.
Agreed.
>> MG:
>> Given a few more instruments, it's interesting to delegate strongly
>> focused chords to separate instrument groups (like strings vs winds).
>> The freedom of voicing allows use of strongly reinforced 1-5's in
>> the bottom of both groups to really get a lot of tension into the
>> voicing.
>...Spoken like a composer :-)
Yep...An improvisor in slo-mo! <g>
>> I would imagine that you listen to some modern classical music as
>> well.
>Elliot Carter for one. Lots of polytonal stuff. I'm reminded of the jam session
>I had a few years back where one beret wearing, bearded, hippie jazz musician
>exclaimed..."Hey man, does it have to be a tune ?"
Well, you can definitely say that for Carter's music. I like some of
his earlier work, but it takes some determination to stay focused on
his later works. In that vein, I prefer Roger Sessions. I don't think
of either of them as polytonalists. They're poly-something, though.
To me, Carter's music is more complex than it needs to be. But man!
Just witnessing all the stuff written out for one of his pieces!
I saw one of his orchestral works at Carnegie Hall a couple years ago.
Enough notes to choke all the Van Halen clone thrash-monsters in
New Jersey! <g>
Sessions does some very complex atonal-sounding things and then
puts in key signatures! Just to piss off the performers, I think.
He throws lots of acci's just cancelling the key sig out every other
note. Very fine composer, but neither are for the faint of heart.
I've already mentioned Mennin as a serious polytonal composer.
Real emphasis on the craft in his work. William ('Not Robert')
Schumann as well, though I don't care for many of his compositions.
Lest anyone think I've lost it, Willy is a 20th century composer.
I haven't confirmed this, but one of Mennin's symphonic movements
is supposedly in locrian mode. Know of any other locrian pieces?
Ellen Zwilich also comes to mind. Very clean, defined, 'deliberate'
use of polytonality. Sometimes spare to the point of being bleak,
but as a Juilliard prof once put it "She knows how to send out sound!"
Though not necessarily dedicated to the craft of polytonal composition
like Mennin, Zwilich, and Schumann, I *must* mention Joseph Schwantner.
This is a guitar group, after all. Schwantner's guitar concerto (perf
Sharon Isbin on Virgin/Angel CD '95) is a beautiful, very accessible piece.
Great idiomatic use of the guitar, and adept, complimentary use of the
orchestra...bell/perc passages scored almost like a giant guitar. The
Corigliano piece on the CD is OK. Lukas Foss doesn't get it for me.
Hey...So who says that guitarists are exciting people? If anyone is
still awake now, you have earned your offical alt.guitar poly-pocket
protector, issued with matching duct tape for your glasses.
I'm done.
MGarvin
Paolo Valladolid
Giri Iyengar (giye...@aec004.ve.ford.com) wrote:
: your hand over the capo to a different chord on the other side. The Trilogy
: will probably have to be used rather minimally, since too much switching
: will throw everything out of tune.
A guitar with a graphite-reinforced neck was recommended in the Guitar
Player reveiw of the Triology for eliminating the tuning problem.
: Any suggestions for neat close-voiced chords, people? (On regular guitar).
Lots of them in the Allan Holdsworth books. Also the two submissions by
John Stowell to Guitar Player (both articles on close-voiced chords).
Paolo Valladolid
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John le Conte
On Sat, 18 May 1996 19:42:03 -0400, "Jack A. Zucker" <j...@en.com>
wrote:
>Is noone interested in this discussion ?
>
>-Jaz
>--
>>
>> Jack A. Zucker | ESP Music
>> j...@en.com or | Voice: 216 349 5881 (home)
>> Jack....@software.rockwell.com | Voice: 216 646 7796 (work)
>> | Fax: 216 646 7766 (work)
Very interested!
how about this sequence from Round Midnight (Thelonious Monk) : (it
actually contains no semitone intervals, but its very nice!)
C7/6
note string
c 6
a 5
d 4
g 3
bflat 2
F6/9
f 5
d 4
g 3
a 2
...follwed by the same 2 chords but both a semitone lower
there's a songbook avalable by Alan Holdsworth (Gong et alia) you may
enjoy - he too is a guitarist with very large hands and a love of
close voicing (also using the right hand to fret some notes of the
chords, enabling extremely wide as well as extremely small intervals!)
keep the chords coming!
john le conte
Jeff Preston
In a previous article, jo...@gabriel.co.uk (John le Conte) says:
>Very interested!
Make that another, bartender. Unfortunately, I haven't the
language to participate fully in the discussion, so I sit quietly
on the sidelines rather than open my mouth, removing all doubt
as to my ignorance...
>there's a songbook avalable by Alan Holdsworth (Gong et alia) you may
>enjoy - he too is a guitarist with very large hands and a love of
>close voicing (also using the right hand to fret some notes of the
>chords, enabling extremely wide as well as extremely small intervals!)
As a guitarist, I find this to be the one thing I can most easily
appreciate about Allan's music -- after all, it is the *only* aspect
of his style I can ever hope to actually be able to duplicate! :)
But I have put his many sub-conscious lessons in chord theory to
work. I submitted a tune to a net compilation a few years ago, and
had several questions about the "tuning" involved. The tuning was,
of course, standard -- it was the use of close-interval chords
which was throwing folks. Chords are neat. :)
Jeff
--
Giri Iyengar
Hey, youse folks (Mark and Jaz)! Please do NOT take this to e-mail
or any such thing. I'm having a blast, even though I can't contribute
much. Lack of time on the net (from work) and, more importantly, lack
of knowledge and experience.
But I think I've gleaned enough ideas to keep me busy for years. My
brain is full! May I be excused now? :-)
Mark Garvin wrote:
> >...Spoken like a composer :-)
>
> Yep...An improvisor in slo-mo! <g>
Who has the ability to retrace and erase. Sorry, couldn't let that pass.
BTW, have you read Derek Bailey's "Improvisation...?" Just wondering.
You probably have. Everyone else should, too.
> Hey...So who says that guitarists are exciting people? If anyone is
> still awake now, you have earned your offical alt.guitar poly-pocket
> protector, issued with matching duct tape for your glasses.
Huh? What? Sorry, I fell asleep. Coffee-time! Jeez, Mark, I've had my
first caffeine-free day in two years today. Till now (1:00). Doesn't
seem like I'm going to make it. ;}
..Giri
Mark Garvin
In <4o17nk$m...@panix2.panix.com> mga...@panix.com (Mark Garvin) writes:
>One of my favorites. Ives also loved tritone displacements. Note to
>others: by 'alt', Jack means a 7th chord with altered 9th and 5th
>components. It bears mentioning that the +9 and +5 are not truly
>spelled out in this polychord, but the most common choice of scale
>would be a diminished (which *does* have the +9 and +5). A diminished
>scale will work equally well with any combination of minors and majors
>voiced a tritone apart.
Oops.. I knew I'd probably slip at least once if I went on long
enough. The dim scale will work fine for chords spaced a tritone
apart, but the correct conforming scale for a chord with + and - 5's
and + and - 9's is a superlocrian (as pointed out by Jaz...thanks).
Superlocrian, for those not familiar, is like a major do-re-mi
scale with all the intervals flattened: C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb C.
No, the Fb is not a mistake, though I personally just write E
for performers' parts. This is one of those wierd cases where
things get hard to categorize.
When speaking in terms of the scale, it makes sense to allocate
one letter per scale step when possible (not possible with 8-note
scales). This makes the derivation of the intervals more obvious.
Unfortunately, in this case, a dim 4th interval is heard as a major
3rd when building chords. In fact, the normal 3rd (the Eb) can now be
referred to as an aug 9. So the chord spelling could be different
from the underlying scale: C Db D# E Gb G# Bb C. That spelling would
correctly imply the +/-5's and +/-9's. Note that in classical music,
the D# would be an Eb, and a C Eb E G chord would be called a
major/minor and not an aug 9, as in jazz.
I've written algorithms (as part of my notation software) to
attempt analysis of chord structures. This stuff gets really
tough...almost impossible. Yet a good human theoretician can
usually come up with a logical name for most complex chord
voicings.
Theorist Paul Hindemith applied some rules that make sense in
relatively restricted situations, but much of his method uses
strongly consonant intervals, like 5ths and 3rds, to determine
what is anchoring the chord.
There is an uneven symmetry to the normal scale structure which
makes it possible to identify the key of a diatonic (w no
accidentals) given the notes that make the tritone (Ex: B and F
in a C scale) + one additional note. From there, chord structure
becomes more clear.
This whole concept falls apart with altered intervals. Alt 5's
and 9's sort of 'spin' the normal scale structure into a mirror
image (reflected about the tritone 'axis'). This is part of the
logic behind 'tritone subs' in jazz.
Anyway, simple algorithms that rely on P5ths or attempted
conformance to triad templates can fail in even simple situations.
Here's one: C E G would instantly be recognized by my artificial
stupidity algorithms to be a C chord. But what happens when an
Ab is added? The Ab does not have a P5 to reinforce it...yet
(depending on voicing) it *can* take control of the C chord,
converting it to an Ab Ma7+5.
So...How about those Mets, eh?
MGarvin
James Andrews
In article <4o678b$i...@panix2.panix.com>, mga...@panix.com (Mark Garvin) wrote:
> This whole concept falls apart with altered intervals. Alt 5's
> and 9's sort of 'spin' the normal scale structure into a mirror
> image (reflected about the tritone 'axis'). This is part of the
> logic behind 'tritone subs' in jazz.
Jesus H. Christ! I took a couple years of Jazz piano, which taught me
some theory, and I've been doing my damnedest to follow this thread (being
one of the more interesting on the group lately), but "a mirror image
reflected around the tritone axis"? Wha? Care to explain that one a
little further?
> So...How about those Mets, eh?
Wait a minute, is a "Met" another chord voicing? Some sort of "Major
elongated tritone"? (Just kidding...)
Jas.
--
James Andrews
Philadelphia, PA
and...@ben.dev.upenn.edu
Jeremy Crosbie
Mark Garvin wrote:
>
> >In <31A0EE...@en.com> "Jack A. Zucker" <j...@en.com> writes:
> >>F#/C - F#7 Alt, C7Alt
>
> >others: by 'alt', Jack means a 7th chord with altered 9th and 5th
> >components. It bears mentioning that the +9 and +5 are not truly
> >spelled out in this polychord, but the most common choice of scale
> >would be a diminished (which *does* have the +9 and +5). A diminished
> >scale will work equally well with any combination of minors and majors
> >voiced a tritone apart.
>
> enough. The dim scale will work fine for chords spaced a tritone
> apart, but the correct conforming scale for a chord with + and - 5's
> and + and - 9's is a superlocrian (as pointed out by Jaz...thanks).
>
> Superlocrian, for those not familiar, is like a major do-re-mi
> scale with all the intervals flattened: C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb C.
> No, the Fb is not a mistake, though I personally just write E
> for performers' parts. This is one of those wierd cases where
> things get hard to categorize.
One can also think of the Superlocrian mode as the last mode of the
melodic minor scale (ascending).
-Jeremy Crosbie
Mark Garvin
>> mga...@panix.com (Mark Garvin) wrote:
>> This whole concept falls apart with altered intervals. Alt 5's
>> and 9's sort of 'spin' the normal scale structure into a mirror
>> image (reflected about the tritone 'axis'). This is part of the
>> logic behind 'tritone subs' in jazz.
> and...@ben.dev.upenn.edu (James Andrews) writes:
>Jesus H. Christ! I took a couple years of Jazz piano, which taught me
>some theory, and I've been doing my damnedest to follow this thread (being
>one of the more interesting on the group lately), but "a mirror image
>reflected around the tritone axis"? Wha? Care to explain that one a
>little further?
Hi James, I'll give it a try, but it's tough to ASCII-ize.
Don't confuse this diagram with a cycle of fifths. The following
is a chromatic scale, intentionally starting at B rather than C.
The reason for this is that the scale's tritones will fall on the
vertical axis (B to F).
B
* C
A *
* D
G *
* E
F
Note that the circle is symmetrical on a 'north-to-south' basis.
In other words, if the top half were folded over, the notes would
match. But if it is folded left-to-right, NONE of the notes
would match up.
Here's the implication: (assume diatonic scales for now please)
Given a tritone and just one additional note, the key will be clear.
In other words, since there is only one tritone found in a normal
diatonic scale, the notes B and F would dictate that the key would
be either C or Gb. But the key of Gb does not have any more notes
in common with the key of C! So one additional note would 'tip the
scales'.
Now consider that the B and F are often seen as the Ma3 and b7 of
a dominant chord. This could be a G7 or a Db7 chord.
1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 1
Gdom: G A B C D E F G
5 6 7 1 2 3 4
Dbdom: Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb
Note that only the B and F notes are common (the correct enharmonic
spelling for the B note is Cb for the second scale).
The implication is that altered notes in either scale will hit notes
in the 'opposite' scale. So altering the 5th's or 9th's of the
G7-series chord will add in notes from the Db7-series.
A G7+9-9+5-5 would be: G Ab Bb B Db Eb F G (flats used for clarity).
This looks closer to a Db dominant than a G dom at this point, right?
Anyway, if you were to spin the circular diagram around (mirror image)
then the intervals would land on the altered 5's and 9's.
I hope that makes sense. It's a lot easier to explain in person,
with a couple more charts and played illustrations.
Mark Garvin
Jim Harper
It is possible to be interested in gear (gearhead) and still
be a great player. I would guess most race car drivers
are into cars ect....
Some bonehead
Well put Jim..
the two are not mutually exclusive.
I _guarantee_ that the top players we all love are big time "gearheads"
I read an article by Cezar Diaz (amp tech) who said that SRV would stay
up all night with him staring into the guts of an amp trying to come
up with ways to make it sound better, to get "his" sound out of it more,
and this was AFTER big shows..
after all, isn't the whole reason we try different gear simply to find
what will enable us to produce the sound we hear in our head?
it's called expression.
Charles Coker
Austin, TX
Giri Iyengar
Paolo Valladolid wrote:
> Giri wrote:
> : Any suggestions for neat close-voiced chords, people? (On regular guitar).
>
> Lots of them in the Allan Holdsworth books. Also the two submissions by
> John Stowell to Guitar Player (both articles on close-voiced chords).
Right! Anyone here tried that stuff? Maddening. At least to me and my stubbies.
If anyone else here is working on their ability to stretch, a good idea is to
start up the neck where the frets are much closer and slowly work your way
back down.
..Giri