Strats finished with Lacquer!
Jack A. Zucker
I just heard from my local dealer that Fender bought a new plant in
California which is certified to spray lacquer and that very soon, ALL USA
strats will be finished in lacquer!
That's fantastic news. I recently played a really nice maple neck strat with
texas special pickups (I forget what they're calling these guys but they're
around $600) and it makes me drool to think about getting one finished in
laquer instead of Urethane!
-Jaz
Joe Bac
Jack A. Zucker (j...@gwis.com) wrote:
: I just heard from my local dealer that Fender bought a new plant in
: California which is certified to spray lacquer and that very soon, ALL USA
: strats will be finished in lacquer!
I'm not a law man but my understanding is that there is a restriction on
spraying lacquer in our fine state here. I'd be surprised if this new
paint facility has a CA address. If what you say is true, then that is
interesting news. All of the custom shop lacquer finishes were done out
of state. Another thing to think about here is todays lacquer is totally
different from yesteryear's lacquer. Not the same material but that
doesn't mean it's not any good. I have a black custom shop that's lacquer.
It's quite nice. I have a refinished 63 in candy apple lacquer done
in a small shop locally (I don't know id it was done legally since we're
not supposed to do so according to the EPA) and of course, I have two
original finish Leo era pieces. All are different.
Joe
jr...@my-dejanews.com
What's the advantage? I'm a bit vague on it. I know it ages well.
In article <6mcnin$2dm$1...@news.gwis.com>,
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@gwis.com> wrote:
>
> I just heard from my local dealer that Fender bought a new plant in
> California which is certified to spray lacquer and that very soon, ALL USA
> strats will be finished in lacquer!
>
> That's fantastic news. I recently played a really nice maple neck strat with
> texas special pickups (I forget what they're calling these guys but they're
> around $600) and it makes me drool to think about getting one finished in
> laquer instead of Urethane!
>
> -Jaz
>
>
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
Gary Watts
Jack A. Zucker (j...@gwis.com) wrote:
: I just heard from my local dealer that Fender bought a new plant in
: California which is certified to spray lacquer and that very soon, ALL USA
: strats will be finished in lacquer!
: That's fantastic news. I recently played a really nice maple neck strat with
: texas special pickups (I forget what they're calling these guys but they're
: around $600) and it makes me drool to think about getting one finished in
: laquer instead of Urethane!
This is very hard to imagine with California's air quality laws. Some
possible ideas:
1) They are installing a filtration system to remove the VOC's from the
exhaust system.
2) It's a waterbased lacquer system instead of nitrocellulose or acrylic
lacquer.
Gary
jr...@my-dejanews.com
In article <6mlss5$hhb$1...@ocean.cup.hp.com>,
gwa...@cv.hp.com (Gary Watts) wrote:
>
> Jack A. Zucker (j...@gwis.com) wrote:
very soon, ALL USA strats will be finished in lacquer!
>
> possible ideas:
>
> 1) They are installing a filtration system to remove the VOC's from the
> exhaust system.
> 2) It's a waterbased lacquer system instead of nitrocellulose or acrylic
> lacquer.
>
> Gary
Jack A. Zucker
>1) They are installing a filtration system to remove the VOC's from the
>exhaust system.
>2) It's a waterbased lacquer system instead of nitrocellulose or acrylic
>lacquer.
>
>Gary
The rep claimed it wsa nitrocellulose.
-Jaz
STRATQUEEN
Jaz wrote:
<<The rep claimed it wsa nitrocellulose.>>
Does this mean it'll break down more quickly, and provide less protection than
the traditional lacquers?
Slide on........
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/STRATQUEEN/index.html">Stratqueen's Page</A>
**************************************
Sharon L. Demmerlé, Esq.
Demmerlé Law Offices, P.L.L.C.
Post Office Box 688
Manchester, NH 03105-0688
Phantom Post
>This is very hard to imagine with California's air quality laws. Some
>possible ideas:
>
>1) They are installing a filtration system to remove the VOC's from the
>exhaust system.
>2) It's a waterbased lacquer system instead of nitrocellulose or acrylic
>lacquer.
>
I'm not familiar with the wording of the law but I would guess #1.
It's probably written to outlaw emissions into the atmosphere and/or harmful
exposure to employees. Not the actual use of lacquer. If harm to the
environment and the workers has been eliminated it just could be so.
PAT
=============================================
Visit the Phantom Post Site
http://www.mcn.org/e/patrickt/
=============================================
Replace "nospam" with "patrickt" to Email ;>)
Andy Niedzwiecke
In article <6mlss5$hhb$1...@ocean.cup.hp.com>, gwa...@cv.hp.com (Gary Watts) writes:
> Jack A. Zucker (j...@gwis.com) wrote:
> : strats will be finished in lacquer!
>
> : texas special pickups (I forget what they're calling these guys but they're
> : around $600) and it makes me drool to think about getting one finished in
> : laquer instead of Urethane!
>
> possible ideas:
>
> 1) They are installing a filtration system to remove the VOC's from the
> exhaust system.
> 2) It's a waterbased lacquer system instead of nitrocellulose or acrylic
> lacquer.
>
>
I just bought a re-isssue 1962 Strat and it came with a little brochure
explaining that the guitar finish is nitrocellulose lacquer finish and that
with time the finish will possibly crack and fog. This was the case with my
original "real" 1962 Strat so I think the plant in Corona, Ca is really using
nitrocellulose lacquer. By the way, the finish is extraordinary. :)
Regards, Andy
Mike Burns
> I just bought a re-isssue 1962 Strat and it came with a little brochure
> explaining that the guitar finish is nitrocellulose lacquer finish and that
> with time the finish will possibly crack and fog. This was the case with my
> original "real" 1962 Strat so I think the plant in Corona, Ca is really using
> nitrocellulose lacquer. By the way, the finish is extraordinary. :)
>
> Regards, Andy
Great news! I had a '86 62 reissue that had a nitro finish, and it was
cracked and faded to hell, and worn off of the back of the neck. It felt
great, and looked like the real thing. Hearing this, I might go check out
a 62 reissue again.
mike
Gary Watts
Andy Niedzwiecke (an...@master.cna.tek.com) wrote:
: I just bought a re-isssue 1962 Strat and it came with a little brochure
: explaining that the guitar finish is nitrocellulose lacquer finish and that
: with time the finish will possibly crack and fog. This was the case with my
: original "real" 1962 Strat so I think the plant in Corona, Ca is really using
: nitrocellulose lacquer. By the way, the finish is extraordinary. :)
: Regards, Andy
They have been doing their finishing operations in Mexico for some years now
on instruments that have been sold as *made in USA*. The manufacturing
operations are done here for the most part, just not the finishing. An
end run around the law for the planet actually.
Gary
Joe Bac
Andy Niedzwiecke (an...@master.cna.tek.com) wrote:
: I just bought a re-isssue 1962 Strat and it came with a little brochure
: explaining that the guitar finish is nitrocellulose lacquer finish and that
: with time the finish will possibly crack and fog. This was the case with my
: original "real" 1962 Strat so I think the plant in Corona, Ca is really using
: nitrocellulose lacquer. By the way, the finish is extraordinary. :)
They ship those out of state for the painting process. Cannot spray nitro
in CA. Your guitar was made there but not sprayed there.
--
_____________________________________________________________
| Joseph G. Bac Phone: 408 447-7190 |
| Hewlett-Packard Co. Fax: 408 447-4668 |
| 19091 Pruneridge Ave. MS 46LR Email: joe...@cup.hp.com |
| Cupertino, CA 95014 or Joe...@hp.com |
|_____________________________________________________________|
TIMOTHY GUEGUEN
jr...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
: In article <6mlss5$hhb$1...@ocean.cup.hp.com>,
: gwa...@cv.hp.com (Gary Watts) wrote:
: >
: > Jack A. Zucker (j...@gwis.com) wrote:
: very soon, ALL USA strats will be finished in lacquer!
: >
: > This is very hard to imagine with California's air quality laws. Some
: > possible ideas:
: >
: > 1) They are installing a filtration system to remove the VOC's from the
: > exhaust system.
: > 2) It's a waterbased lacquer system instead of nitrocellulose or acrylic
: > lacquer.
: >
: > Gary
What are Arizona's enviromental regs for paint products? Perhaps they're
doing the painting there.
tim gueguen 101867
Andrew P. Mullhaupt
STRATQUEEN wrote in message
<199806221756...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>Jaz wrote:
>
><<The rep claimed it wsa nitrocellulose.>>
>
>Does this mean it'll break down more quickly, and provide less protection
than
>the traditional lacquers?
Nitrocellulose _is_ the traditional lacquer.
The problem with nitrocellulose is that it is very environmentally
unfriendly, in addition to being very flammable and even explosive. As a
lacquer, the nitro groups in nitrocellulose lacquer provide a better
moisture barrier than other lacquers. In fact this aspect was first noticed
by cigarette manufacturers who wanted to keep the cigarettes fresher by
wrapping the boxes. Nitrocellulose lacquer was the first lacquer finish to
be able to be applied by spray, which was discovered by the furniture
companies in the first half of the twentieth century. Presumably guitar
makers used it since it could be sprayed, although they may have been aware
of the extra moisture barrier provided by the nitro groups in the
nitrocellulose.
But in terms of resistance to scratches and dings, lacquer provides less
protection than polyurethane. This might be important in the long run
protecting the guitar wood from humidity cycling.
Given the state of today's chemistry, you can dial up just about whatever
coating you want without any adverse environmental problems. The issue would
be more about whether guitar players would accept it or not.
Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt
Jack A. Zucker
>
>But in terms of resistance to scratches and dings, lacquer provides less
>protection than polyurethane. This might be important in the long run
>protecting the guitar wood from humidity cycling.
One important point you didn't mention is that many people feel that
nitrocellulose lacquer allows the wood to "breathe" which may cause the
instrument's sound to improve with age.
-Jaz
Daniel R. Haney
Andrew P. Mullhaupt wrote:
>
> Nitrocellulose _is_ the traditional lacquer.
Heh.
A slightly older recipe uses powdered shellac,
digested beetle chitin, and grain alcohol.
[insert details here]
> The problem with nitrocellulose is that it is very environmentally
> unfriendly, in addition to being very flammable and even explosive. As a
> lacquer, the nitro groups in nitrocellulose lacquer provide a better
> moisture barrier than other lacquers.
$0.25 -
<pedantic>
Aside from quibbles about _which_ nitrocellulose, the likelihood of
deflagration (not explosion) in the lower NO2-celluloses used in
lacquer,
that the very volatile solvents for NO2-cellulose are themselves
explosive
in aerosol form, and are none too congenial physiologically,
yeah, you are essentially correct.
The slow environmental decomposition of most organic nitrates often
begins
with free radical nitroxides of some sort. Can you say co-carcinogen?
</pedantic>
<humor>
The rapid decomposition of a select few organic nitrates will generate
shock waves whose velocities exceed 1000 meters/sec.
</humor>
> ... you can dial up just about whatever coating you want without
> any adverse environmental problems. The issue would be more about
> whether guitar players would accept it or not.
Bingo. Guitar players can be a very conservative lot.
Think how difficult it is to get the bulk of them to
look beyond Strats, Les Pauls, and OEM pickups.
Right about now would be a great time for an honest-to-God
fer real luthier to add some cogent insights.
-drh
--
Andrew P. Mullhaupt
Jack A. Zucker wrote in message <6mn1an$ibu$1...@news.gwis.com>...
Lots of other finishes permit this. Although the really thick heavy duty
polyurethane finishes probably don't.
Brush on lacquer (the original non-nitrcellulose type) is even better at
letting the wood "breathe" than the nitrocellulose type.
Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt
Andrew P. Mullhaupt
Jomack wrote in message <199806230229...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
>A second point in nitro laquer's favor is it's ability be fixed. A skilled
>luthier can do amazing things when it comes to laquer finish touch ups and
>repairs.
One of the interesting aspects with using nitrocellulose is that these
repairs can be detected by the use of ulraviolet light. The nitro groups in
the finish are the part of the molecule which are UV active.
I've actually seen people detect a headstock repair on a 'thought to be
mint' '60's Gibson using this technique. Although the UV revealed the repair
clearly, they came to the conclusion that the repair had been so skillfully
done that it was probably done by Gibson and they only knocked $1000 off the
price they paid.
Other hard to spot finish touch ups can be detected by other analytical
techniques, but they aren't as simple as using a black light and a
magnifying glass.
Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt
Andrew P. Mullhaupt
Daniel R. Haney wrote in message <358F13...@mindspring.com>...
>Andrew P. Mullhaupt wrote:
>>
>> Nitrocellulose _is_ the traditional lacquer.
>
>Heh.
>
>A slightly older recipe uses powdered shellac,
>digested beetle chitin, and grain alcohol.
That lacquer formula (which is in continuous use in the furniture industry)
couldn't be sprayed easily, which is why nitrocellulose became popular in
the first half of the century.
Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt
Greg Peterson
Gary Watts <gwa...@cv.hp.com> wrote in article
<6mlss5$hhb$1...@ocean.cup.hp.com>...
> Jack A. Zucker (j...@gwis.com) wrote:
>
> This is very hard to imagine with California's air quality laws. Some
> possible ideas:
>
> 1) They are installing a filtration system to remove the VOC's from the
> exhaust system.
> 2) It's a waterbased lacquer system instead of nitrocellulose or acrylic
> lacquer.
With modern engineering controls there are ways to spray apply anything you
want without violating any air quality laws.
Can someone explain the advantage of laquer though?
Daniel R. Haney
Andrew P. Mullhaupt wrote:
> Daniel R. Haney pontificated:
>> Andrew P. Mullhaupt tersely noted:
>>>
>>> Nitrocellulose _is_ the traditional lacquer.
>>
>>digested beetle chitin, and grain alcohol.
>
> That lacquer formula (which is in continuous use in the furniture industry)
> couldn't be sprayed easily, which is why nitrocellulose became popular in
> the first half of the century.
Right. The chitin protein never quite dissolves, only suspends
in the viscous shellac+ethanol and serves as condensation nuclei
for shellac when the solvent evaporates - okay when it happens on
the wood, lousy for spray nozzles. Definitely a brush-on coating.
OTOH, the nitrocelluloses are tolerably miscible in the
toxins ethanol, methanol, acetone, ethyl acetate,etc.,
show less proclivity for gumming the works, and are easily
inhaled in an industrial setting.
What's a zorched liver and kidney set worth nowadays?
-Daniel R. Haney
--
Kenneth J.
In article <6mlss5$hhb$1...@ocean.cup.hp.com>,
>: strats will be finished in lacquer!
>
>: texas special pickups (I forget what they're calling these guys but they're
>: around $600) and it makes me drool to think about getting one finished in
>: laquer instead of Urethane!
>
>possible ideas:
>
>1) They are installing a filtration system to remove the VOC's from the
>exhaust system.
>2) It's a waterbased lacquer system instead of nitrocellulose or acrylic
>lacquer.
>
>
Gary;
Are you having seizures?
ken
Kenneth J.
In article <6mmd9b$3d9$1...@solaris.cna>,
Andy Niedzwiecke <an...@master.cna.tek.com> wrote:
>In article <6mlss5$hhb$1...@ocean.cup.hp.com>, gwa...@cv.hp.com (Gary Watts) writes:
>> Jack A. Zucker (j...@gwis.com) wrote:
>> : I just heard from my local dealer that Fender bought a new plant in
>> : California which is certified to spray lacquer and that very soon, ALL USA
>> : strats will be finished in lacquer!
>>
>> : That's fantastic news. I recently played a really nice maple neck strat with
>> : texas special pickups (I forget what they're calling these guys but they're
>> : around $600) and it makes me drool to think about getting one finished in
>> : laquer instead of Urethane!
>>
>> This is very hard to imagine with California's air quality laws. Some
>> possible ideas:
>>
>> 1) They are installing a filtration system to remove the VOC's from the
>> exhaust system.
>> 2) It's a waterbased lacquer system instead of nitrocellulose or acrylic
>> lacquer.
>>
>>
>> Gary
>
>explaining that the guitar finish is nitrocellulose lacquer finish and that
>with time the finish will possibly crack and fog. This was the case with my
>original "real" 1962 Strat so I think the plant in Corona, Ca is really using
>nitrocellulose lacquer. By the way, the finish is extraordinary. :)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
John Suhr, whose opinion many of us value when it comes to guitar
construction, feels that it's not the lacquer vs. polyurethane that
effects the tone so much as the thickness of the finish !!!
ken
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Jomack
>>>But in terms of resistance to scratches and dings, lacquer provides less
>protection than polyurethane. This might be important in the long run
>protecting the guitar wood from humidity cycling.
One important point you didn't mention is that many people feel that
nitrocellulose lacquer allows the wood to "breathe" which may cause the
instrument's sound to improve with age.<<<
A second point in nitro laquer's favor is it's ability be fixed. A skilled
luthier can do amazing things when it comes to laquer finish touch ups and
repairs.
Given Martin's use of laquer for almost seventy years, to generally good
results, I would think that concerns about laquer's durability to withstand
what Andrew calls "humidty cycling" would be the last of most folks concerns.
With the large expanse of wood that is unfinished in most acoustic guitars, ie
the "inside" and most fingerboards, >protecting< the outside of a guitar from
moisture is not nearly as important an issue as recognizing humidity's affect
on your instrument and knowing how to deal with it.
In the "I can't proove it, but I know its there" catagory, laquer just looks
and "feels" better to me, especially on acoustic guitars. It takes a great deal
of work to do it correctly, and it requires that the instruments owner pay
attention and take care, but the results, so far, suggest that this is a
beautiful, durable and "great sounding" finish that ages gracefully.
Joe McNamara
Andrew P. Mullhaupt
Daniel R. Haney wrote in message <358F28...@mindspring.com>...
>Andrew P. Mullhaupt wrote:
>> Daniel R. Haney pontificated:
>>> Andrew P. Mullhaupt tersely noted:
>>>>
>>>> Nitrocellulose _is_ the traditional lacquer.
>>>
>>>A slightly older recipe uses powdered shellac,
>>>digested beetle chitin, and grain alcohol.
>>
>> That lacquer formula (which is in continuous use in the furniture
industry)
>> couldn't be sprayed easily, which is why nitrocellulose became popular in
>> the first half of the century.
>
>Right. The chitin protein never quite dissolves, only suspends
>in the viscous shellac+ethanol and serves as condensation nuclei
>for shellac when the solvent evaporates - okay when it happens on
>the wood, lousy for spray nozzles. Definitely a brush-on coating.
Yes. Since we were on about Strats, I figured "traditional lacquer" meant
the one originally used on Strats, which have always been
sprayed as far as I am aware.
So far nobody has mentioned the problem of thermal shock crazing and
cracking nitrocellulose finishes, which has been the downfall of at least
one carelessly exposed vintage guitar on a winter's day.
>OTOH, the nitrocelluloses are tolerably miscible in the
>toxins ethanol, methanol, acetone, ethyl acetate,etc.,
>show less proclivity for gumming the works, and are easily
>inhaled in an industrial setting.
>What's a zorched liver and kidney set worth nowadays?
I thought we swept that environmental screwup under the Mexican rug, but you
can probably get it done with robots.
Personally, I don't have any problem with whatever finish Anderson is using,
which I believe is probably some modern polymer.
Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt
Gerry Garavaglia
STRATQUEEN wrote:
>
> Jaz wrote:
>
> <<The rep claimed it wsa nitrocellulose.>>
>
> Does this mean it'll break down more quickly, and provide less protection than
> the traditional lacquers?
>
Nitro is the traditional laquer but my 72 Strat has a poly finish thats
about an inch thick. I dont know when Fender changed from laquer but
most of the guitars today are polyester.
Gerry
Gerry Garavaglia
John S. Shinal wrote:
>
> Notice in particular the fact that many times acrylic and
> nitro lacquers were MIXED in successive layers, and OFTEN (mostly ?)
> those "magic" custom color guitars had another finish underneath !
> So much for the fable of "thin" finishes being the "only" way to get a
> great guitar...
I read that the custom color strats were really sunburst underneath.
Gerry
Darren
> I read that the custom color strats were really sunburst underneath.
Some were, some were'nt.
--
Darren http://www.mindspring.com/~darrenriley
Dan Stanley
Darren <darre...@mindspring.com> wrote in article
<35904326...@mindspring.com>...
> > I read that the custom color strats were really sunburst underneath.
>
> Some were, some were'nt.
It'd be cool if Fender would offer a relic that shows the sunburst finish
under the battered custom color...really! I'd like that.
Dan
Edwin Hurwitz
In article <6mn55c$f...@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com>, "Andrew P. Mullhaupt"
<amul...@nospam.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Jack A. Zucker wrote in message <6mn1an$ibu$1...@news.gwis.com>...
> >>
> >>But in terms of resistance to scratches and dings, lacquer provides less
> >>protection than polyurethane. This might be important in the long run
> >>protecting the guitar wood from humidity cycling.
> >
> >
> >One important point you didn't mention is that many people feel that
> >nitrocellulose lacquer allows the wood to "breathe" which may cause the
> >instrument's sound to improve with age.
>
>
> Lots of other finishes permit this. Although the really thick heavy duty
> polyurethane finishes probably don't.
>
> Brush on lacquer (the original non-nitrcellulose type) is even better at
> letting the wood "breathe" than the nitrocellulose type.
>
> Later,
> Andrew Mullhaupt
I have a '83 '62 reissue that I took the finish off some years back. While
I kinda miss the sunburst, with just a couple of coats of oil the sound has
improved considerably. At first I didn't believe it, but now I'm convinced
that it's true.
Edwin