Wes Montgomery vs Joe Pass etc.
JCM900
several jazz guitarists whose names I've heard bandied about
for many years. I couldn't help but notice how much better
Wes Montgomery sounded than the other guitarists featured, e.g.
Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, Charlie Byrd, Kenny Burrell. Quite
frankly, even comparing Joe Pass to Wes Montgomery seems like
comparing Barney to Godzilla. Are my views slanted by my Rock/Metal
background or was Wes Montgomery really so much better than those
other clowns?
Daniel Cooper
giant IMO. But W.M. has a really distinctive style, effortless, memorable
phrasing. A big part of his sound has to do with the fact that he played
with his thumb rather than with a pick. Some people consider Burrell too
"academic", but I like him. I've got a great record by him called "Jazzmen
of Detroit". Don't know about Charlie Byrd's stuff. My favorite Wes album
is an early Riverside recording, "The Wes Montgomery Trio" with Melvin Rhyne
on organ and Paul Parker on drums. Very, very cool.
Dan
JCM900 wrote in message <36A172...@mauimail.com>...
Music From Another Planet
--
Regards
Ivan Bertolla--Composer,Film Music,Arranger,MIDI Studio
Music From Another Planet
http://www.bertolla.com
email: off...@bertolla.com
ICQ 7934153
Debut Instrumental CD "Beyond The Skies Eternity"
Bill Hatcher
Are my views slanted by my Rock/Metal
>background or was Wes Montgomery really so much better than those
>other clowns?
Your views are slanted because you have the musical mentality of a
dildo. Do you even have any other recordings by the jazz guitar
greats??
Tom Jaffe
wrong with your ear or musicality. He did not sound like a dork like the
others. Wes was cool and smooth sounding. I had the same reaction as you
when viewing the video (I assume it was "Legends of Jazz Guitar) and I
have played jazz professionally for 15 years. Wes was to jazz guitar
what Jimi Hendrix was to rock guitar.
He left everyone else in the dust!
JCM900 wrote:
> I recently borrowed a video from the public library featuring
> several jazz guitarists whose names I've heard bandied about
> for many years. I couldn't help but notice how much better
> Wes Montgomery sounded than the other guitarists featured, e.g.
> Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, Charlie Byrd, Kenny Burrell. Quite
> frankly, even comparing Joe Pass to Wes Montgomery seems like
> comparing Barney to Godzilla. Are my views slanted by my Rock/Metal
Bob Valentine
Tom Jaffe <tja...@eesjobs.com> wrote:
>Wes Montgomery was way better than those other clowns. There is nothing
>wrong with your ear or musicality. He did not sound like a dork like the
>others. Wes was cool and smooth sounding. I had the same reaction as you
>when viewing the video (I assume it was "Legends of Jazz Guitar) and I
>have played jazz professionally for 15 years. Wes was to jazz guitar
>what Jimi Hendrix was to rock guitar.
>He left everyone else in the dust!
>
Except to those who disagree.
Wes Reewwwwls. Semper Fi. Maybe cut the crossposting.
Harry Avant
>Your views are slanted because you have the musical mentality of a
>dildo. Do you even have any other recordings by the jazz guitar
>greats??
Bill, you've got to stop holding back your feelings and just say what
you think!
and
>"Its a very sad day when comparisons like this are made.. Very sad"
>Ivan Bertolla--Composer,Film Music,Arranger,MIDI Studio
Well said.
Harry
JCM900
>
> Those other guitarists are hardly clowns. Barney Kessel in particular is a
> giant IMO.
I have an old issue of Guitar Player(1978) where Barney Kessel lambasts
John McLaughlin for being a musical "charlatan" for playing the
the type of music he did rather than more traditional stuff. He
insinuated that McLaughlin stayed away from conventional music because
he didn't know how to play it. Kessel sure sounded like a
clown back then. The Yngwie Malmsteen of Jazz one might say.
JCM900
>
> Its a very sad day when comparisons like this are made.. Very sad
I don't think so. CD's are expensive. If I have only enough
money in my budget to buy 1 jazz CD, I want to know who's better,
Wes Montgomery or Joe Pass.
VCR
I think you would be hard pressed to find a more swinging solo guitar
player than Pass though.
I have a hard time saying someone is really a better player than someone
else but I know what I like. It sounds like you've found something you dig.
Wes' Boss Guitar is my favorite record...check it out. The solo on Wine and
Roses stands out. If you don't like the organ sound try Full House with the
Wynton Kelly Trio and Johnny Griffin. PC and Cobb are so swinging on that.
Vinnie
JCM900 wrote in message <36A172...@mauimail.com>...
>I recently borrowed a video from the public library featuring
>several jazz guitarists whose names I've heard bandied about
>for many years. I couldn't help but notice how much better
>Wes Montgomery sounded than the other guitarists featured, e.g.
>Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, Charlie Byrd, Kenny Burrell. Quite
>frankly, even comparing Joe Pass to Wes Montgomery seems like
Daniel Cooper
fail to see how his criticism of McLaughlin makes him a "clown" or what it
has to do with his guitar playing or, FTM, why you put "versus" in the
header.
Dan
JCM900 wrote in message <36A27E...@mauimail.com>...
Jack A. Zucker
RICK ROSS
JCM900 wrote in message <36A27F...@mauimail.com>...
buy one CD at Warehouse...listen to it..return and get the other CD..listen
to it
then go back and get the first CD you returned...because you realize you
have to have both...
Joe Bac
>
> What's better: Chocolate or Vanilla ?
Neither - they're both dead. Kahrist - what an ass! I didn't see the
original post so I'm not sure who the idiot was who asked that question.
But Jack certainly responded appropriately.
--
joe...@cup.hp.com
Joe Bac
Okay - maybe I'm the ass now that I figured out why the original poster
asked the question - so that he could buy one CD. Well, buy one, save
your money, and then buy the other. You won't be sorry which ever you
buy first.
--
joe...@cup.hp.com
Daniel R. Haney
> What's better: Chocolate or Vanilla ?
Both in huge excess.
-drh
--
"Who cares? It's only Usenet."
Daniel R. Haney
> I couldn't help but notice how much better
> Wes Montgomery sounded than the other guitarists featured, e.g.
> Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, Charlie Byrd, Kenny Burrell. Quite
> frankly, even comparing Joe Pass to Wes Montgomery seems like
> comparing Barney to Godzilla.
Good job on checking out some of the Jazz spectrum, especially
since your first focused experience was with the greats.
Try not to get into the mindset of "if it isn't the best, it must be
junk."
It looks too much like juvenile dicksizing alloyed with crass
consumerism;
it will surely blind you to the singular excellences that everyone
around
you has to share.
Personally, I'd *love* to be as 'bad' as one of those other clowns
like Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, or the Byrdman.
Gotta admit, though, Wes was simply better.
bumpin' on sunset,
Matt Feiszli
>money in my budget to buy 1 jazz CD, I want to know who's better,
>Wes Montgomery or Joe Pass.
Next time ask "how are they different" and you might get some useful
info.
-Matt
STRATQUEEN
>I don't think so. CD's are expensive. If I have only enough
>money in my budget to buy 1 jazz CD, I want to know who's better,
>Wes Montgomery or Joe Pass.
>
I don't particuarly believe that comparisons are sad, but comparisons ARE so
subjective, don't you think?
--Sharon
<A HREF="http://members.aol.com/STRATQUEEN/index.html">Stratqueen's Page</A>
STRATQUEEN
In article <6Hxo2.12455$bf6....@news1.giganews.com>, "Jack A. Zucker"
<j...@gwis.com> writes:
>What's better: Chocolate or Vanilla ?
>
Vanilla with chocolate on top.
steve...@my-dejanews.com
JCM900@mauimail..com wrote:
> Music From Another Planet wrote:
> >
> > Its a very sad day when comparisons like this are made.. Very sad
>
> money in my budget to buy 1 jazz CD, I want to know who's better,
> Wes Montgomery or Joe Pass.
>
what they did.
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
UB2BAD4ME
style in comparison to alot of other benchmarks . Since he was an earlier cat ,
go with that vibe and progress to some of the later greats . I've had the great
pleasure of visiting Tal Farlow for many years at a local Sunday Brunch at a
Jersey Hotel/Restaurant called the Yankee Clipper until his unfortunate passing
. These cats put but a snapshot of their skills on tape . Go see some local
acts and support the form of music . Expand your horizons since it inspires you
. Inspiration is priceless . I just saw a guy named Norman Brown that really
blew me away . David Scott
Andrew P. Mullhaupt
steve...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
>Who's better, Albert Collins or Albert King?
Albert.
Later,
Andrew Mullhaupt
JCM900
>
> or Hendrix?
>
> or Alvin Lee? he's the fastest isn't he?
Maybe 30 years ago, Yngwie Malmsteen was way faster than Alvin Lee
back in 1986. Since then even faster guys have come along, I think.
>
> Beck's too slow for me but Hendrix is louder, which is good, isn't it?
I don't Hendrix has been very loud for about 28 years. Kind of hard
to crank those Marshalls when you're decaying inside a coffin
>
> But Eddie's too healthy looking although he is fast, which is good,
> isn't it.
You obviously can't be referring to Eddie Van Halen. Heck Eddie
the Iron Maiden Mascot is healthier looking than Eddie Van Halen?
>
> Got any 'ludes?
A 'lude? Isn't that what Julian Bream plays
>
> --
> Regards:
> Joey Goldstein
> Guitarist/Composer/Bandleader/Teacher
Clay Moore
> It is also incredibly disrespectful, and grossly immature on
> your part to refer to the other players as "clowns". They are/were
> all MONSTER musicians. They spent their lives trying to hone their
> craft. And they each probably forgot more about music than you or I
> will ever know.
>
> If you want to know just how entirely frightening of a player
> Joe Pass was - try playing some of this stuff. And then after you're
> done - realize that a huge part of it was created right on the cuff.
> That man was a titan of jazz guitar.
I'm sure that our original poster is many, many years away from
realizing what it takes to be a musician on the level of Joe Pass.
--
Clay Moore
Buy my new CD, Meeting Standards!
http://home.earthlink.net/~guitarbuddy/
From a book called "Disorder in the Court."
---------------------------------------------------------
Q: Did you blow your horn or anything?
A: After the accident?
Q: Before the accident.
A: Sure, I played for ten years. I even went to school for it.
---------------------------------------------------------
Music From Another Planet
Beethoven???
JCM900 wrote:
> Music From Another Planet wrote:
> >
> > Its a very sad day when comparisons like this are made.. Very sad
>
> I don't think so. CD's are expensive. If I have only enough
> money in my budget to buy 1 jazz CD, I want to know who's better,
> Wes Montgomery or Joe Pass.
--
Music From Another Planet
JCM900 wrote:
>
> Maybe 30 years ago, Yngwie Malmsteen was way faster than Alvin Lee
> back in 1986. Since then even faster guys have come along, I think.
>
>
>
> Ahh!! right .. I get it .. this is what its about?? Being faster? So I
> guess its guitar aerobics that is the definition of "better" ..
peatea
Who plays faster or louder is a dumb question. A good musician is not
rated by his speed or volume. I was never impressed with Hendrix. He
played more theatrics than music although he was a fine jazz musician.
Beck is more blues orientated but he can't play with his teeth.
Pt
Jack A. Zucker
>
> Jack A. Zucker wrote:
>
> > What's better: Chocolate or Vanilla ?
>
>
I used to think that but the other day I went to the ice cream parlor
and I couldn't help but notice how much better the Chocolate tasted than
the Vanilla, Strawberry, Pistachio, Mocha, Black Cherry, and Peanut
Brittle. Quite frankly, even comparing Vanilla to Chocolate seems like
comparing Barney to Godzilla. Are my views slanted by my Champagne
tastes or is Chocolate really so much better than those other clowns?
-Jaz
--
Jack A. Zucker
Cleveland, OH US
Check out my jazz guitar page at:
http://w3.gwis.com/~jaz
Ulf Åbjörnsson
Ulf
JCM900 skrev i meddelandet <36A27E...@mauimail.com>...
Ulf Åbjörnsson
Pete Kerezman
>I'm sure that our original poster is many, many years away from
>realizing what it takes to be a musician on the level of Joe Pass.
>
>--
>Clay Moore
>
>Buy my new CD, Meeting Standards!
>http://home.earthlink.net/~guitarbuddy/
>
I have this CD. Clay is the real deal. He could play with Joe Pass
if Joe was still with us. Jazz guitar fans will enjoy and respect it,
and persons who may be seeking an introduction to "traditional" jazz
guitar would do well to give it a spin.
Texas Pete
Pete Kerezman (pete...@aol.com)
Dan Stanley
Jack A. Zucker wrote in message <6Hxo2.12455$bf6....@news1.giganews.com>...
>What's better: Chocolate or Vanilla ?
"true" vanilla.
steve...@my-dejanews.com
Lawson Stone
<5DF264A39E572295.BD50EBF1...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t> , back...@netexpress.net (Keyser Soze) wrote:
> x-no-archive: yes
>
> On Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:24:25 -0800, JCM900 <JCM...@mauimail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>Music From Another Planet wrote:
>>>
>>> Its a very sad day when comparisons like this are made.. Very sad
>>
>>I don't think so. CD's are expensive. If I have only enough
>>money in my budget to buy 1 jazz CD, I want to know who's better,
>>Wes Montgomery or Joe Pass.
>
> Agreed re: CD's are expensive. So don't worry about buying
> each artist's complete discography in one shot.
>
> As a starting point for each artist, may I make the following
> recommendations:
>
> Wes: The Incredible Jazz Guitar of Wes Montgomery
> Pass: Virtuoso (either #1 or #2)
>
Actually, to compare with this recording by Wes, I wouldn't suggest Joe
Pass' "Virtuoso" or any of his solo recordings. Of course, Wes Montgomery
had no solo albums, no albums as the sole sideman for a vocalist or
instrumentalists, no complete album dueting with another guitarist, and to
my knowledge no complete album in simple trio--guitar/bass/drums format. I
don't think he did a complete album of acoustic, solo or ensemble either.
So to compare with this fantastic album of Wes', I suggest a Joe Pass
ensemble album in the equivalent format. For guitar-piano-bass-drums, (s0me
may lack the drums) try:
Joy Spring
Duke's Big Four
Oscar Petersen "At Salle Playel"
Oscar Petersen, "Paris Concert"
One for My Baby
After Hours (with Andre Previn and Ray Brown)
My Song
All of these provide a better comparison with Wes Montgomery.
I sincerely hope the point of the comparison is not to decide who is
"better" but simply to gain a richer understanding of two different
approaches to the challenge of playing jazz on the guitar.
BTW I also would choose "Smokin at the Half Note" instead of "Incredible
Jazz Guitar" as my Wes pick. I can't listen to that one sitting down.
Wes and Joe. Wow.
--
*****************************************************
"Go sleep it off Ike; you talk too much for a fighting man"--Wyatt Earp
*****************************************************
Lawson Stone-Professor of Old Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary
Always Trolling for Conversation about: Jazz Guitar, Cowboy Action Shooting,
Leathercraft, Horses, Old West History and Lore
Joe Bac
> Are my views slanted by my Champagne
> tastes or is Chocolate really so much better than those other clowns?
Yes it is. Maybe Ben & Jerry should name a chocolate after Wes or Joe
(sort of like Cherrie Garcia). Now what should they call it? Vanilla
Pass? Choctive? Hmmm...
--
joe...@cup.hp.com
Will Borgeson
2) Speed is not that important. Taste, style, etc. mean so much more.
3) These kinds of comparisons are pretty lame, to put it mildly.
Will
Dan Stanley
steve...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
<77vtln$2k1$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <77upoo$7...@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>,
> "Andrew P. Mullhaupt" <amul...@nospam.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> steve...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
>>
>> >Who's better, Albert Collins or Albert King?
>>
>> Albert.
>>
But which is the "true" Albert? By which I mean, the most macular
redoubtable?
SDan
Jack A. Zucker
Actually, I hate Ben & Jerry's. They use corn syrup sweeteners which is
always an indicator of cost cutting. Sugar is more expensive, less
predictable, AND tastes better.
evil twin®
<stan...@tiac.net> wrote:
>steve...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
>> "Andrew P. Mullhaupt" <amul...@nospam.ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> steve...@my-dejanews.com wrote in message
>>>
>>> >Who's better, Albert Collins or Albert King?
>>>
>>> Albert.
>>>
>>Correct.
>
>
>But which is the "true" Albert?
King's guitar was more symmetrical, so he must be the "true"
Albert.
Bob Agnew
predominantly single-note with very few octaves, they were still emerging.
If you're going to compare single-note styles, than you better include Wes's
mentors Django and Charlie Christian. You left out one of the greatest Grant
Green, who may be the best single-note soloist I ever heard. What about
Johnny Smith? Apparently the Rock/Metal has impaired your hearing. I
recommend listening to several hundred jazz guitar solos by all these
artists over and over again for many years until your right brain begins to
comprehend what's going on in these solos.
JCM900 <JCM...@mauimail.com> wrote in message
news:36A172...@mauimail.com...
>I recently borrowed a video from the public library featuring
>several jazz guitarists whose names I've heard bandied about
>for many years. I couldn't help but notice how much better
>Wes Montgomery sounded than the other guitarists featured, e.g.
>Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, Charlie Byrd, Kenny Burrell. Quite
>frankly, even comparing Joe Pass to Wes Montgomery seems like
>comparing Barney to Godzilla. Are my views slanted by my Rock/Metal
>background or was Wes Montgomery really so much better than those
>other clowns?
>
>
JCM900
>
> Beethoven???
Sometimes its hard to make comparisons because its like comparing
apples and origins. Still I think most devotees of classical music
would tell you that Mozart was better than Salieri.
JCM900
>
> Apparently the Rock/Metal has impaired your hearing. I
> recommend listening to several hundred jazz guitar solos by all these
> artists over and over again for many years until your right brain >begins to comprehend what's going on in these solos.
Gee, teach, is this a home work assignment? Will I be tested on this?
Quite frankly, any music that one has to cram for to appreciate,
probably isn't worth listening to. Music, whose primarily use is for
instructional purposes is of little artistic merit.
Joey Goldstein
Having no sense of humour is even lamer.
--
Regards:
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Composer/Bandleader/Teacher
Check out: http://home.ican.net/~joegold
Reply To: <joegoldATicanDOTnet>
Jack A. Zucker
> Quite frankly, any music that one has to cram for to appreciate,
> probably isn't worth listening to.
You ever heard of stretching your limits ? Art is often misunderstood
until further examination. It always cracks me up when my 18-24 year old
students have the definitive answers to all of life's questions.
je...@nospamop.net
wrote:
>Joey Goldstein wrote:
>>
>> or Hendrix?
>>
>> or Alvin Lee? he's the fastest isn't he?
I'd say Beck is better, but it would depend on the day of the week,
the weather, the tax rate, and market fluctuation.
Beck is better when Page is on heroin or drunk, or just plain drooling
out the side of his mouth. Page is better when Beck is monkeying
around under the hood of a car and not putting out albums.
DJMangin
>around under the hood of a car and not putting out albums.
or writhing in mental anguish and storming off the stage smashing his expensive
strats
AT
<guita...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Keyser Soze wrote:
>
>> It is also incredibly disrespectful, and grossly immature on
>> your part to refer to the other players as "clowns". They are/were
>> all MONSTER musicians. They spent their lives trying to hone their
>> craft. And they each probably forgot more about music than you or I
>> will ever know.
>>
>> If you want to know just how entirely frightening of a player
>> Joe Pass was - try playing some of this stuff. And then after you're
>> done - realize that a huge part of it was created right on the cuff.
>> That man was a titan of jazz guitar.
>
>I'm sure that our original poster is many, many years away from
>realizing what it takes to be a musician on the level of Joe Pass.
Or even "Slash" for that matter...
AT
wrote:
>Music From Another Planet wrote:
>>
>> Better??? Define Better?? This is art not sport?? Is Bach better than
>> Beethoven???
>
>Sometimes its hard to make comparisons because its like comparing
>apples and origins.
"Apples and origins"? I think that mis-quote is a good indication of
your IQ level.
pri...@nwark.com
> Daniel Cooper wrote:
> >
> > Those other guitarists are hardly clowns. Barney Kessel in particular is a
> > giant IMO.
>
> I have an old issue of Guitar Player(1978) where Barney Kessel lambasts
> John McLaughlin for being a musical "charlatan" for playing the
> the type of music he did rather than more traditional stuff. He
> insinuated that McLaughlin stayed away from conventional music because
> he didn't know how to play it. Kessel sure sounded like a
> clown back then. The Yngwie Malmsteen of Jazz one might say.
One of the unfortunate qualities that seems to often accompany greatness
in a particular genere of music is ego...and intolerance of another style
or form of music in the realm of the same instrument being highlighted
(guitar, in this case). Kessel is arguably one of the greatest
traditional jazz style guitarists, and McLaughlin got bit by Eastern idiom
and Jimi Hendrix all at the same time. He's great too, but the twain will
never meet, methinks. Kessell is obviously convinced that HIS form of
jazz is the only form worth listening to or playing. I used to have
college profs who felt the same way about their courses!
John.
Joe Bac
Chocolate for me. But it's the marketing I'm after here. Come on
what's a good icecream flavor for Joe or Wes?
Jack A. Zucker wrote:
>
> Joe Bac wrote:
> >
> > Jack A. Zucker wrote:
> > > Are my views slanted by my Champagne
> > > tastes or is Chocolate really so much better than those other clowns?
> >
> > Yes it is. Maybe Ben & Jerry should name a chocolate after Wes or Joe
> > (sort of like Cherrie Garcia). Now what should they call it? Vanilla
> > Pass? Choctive? Hmmm...
> > --
> > joe...@cup.hp.com
>
> Actually, I hate Ben & Jerry's. They use corn syrup sweeteners which is
> always an indicator of cost cutting. Sugar is more expensive, less
> predictable, AND tastes better.
>
> -Jaz
>
> --
> Jack A. Zucker
> Cleveland, OH US
> Check out my jazz guitar page at:
> http://w3.gwis.com/~jaz
pri...@nwark.com
> Music From Another Planet wrote:
> >
> > Its a very sad day when comparisons like this are made.. Very sad
>
> I don't think so. CD's are expensive. If I have only enough
> money in my budget to buy 1 jazz CD, I want to know who's better,
> Wes Montgomery or Joe Pass.
You don't get the point...you can't quantify who's best. It's like
saying, what's better, green or red? It's a nonsequitur. What I can tell
you is that I got the privilege of sitting down with Herb Ellis a couple
of years ago and talked with him about some of the greats...Pass, Howard
Roberts, Tal Farlow, Bucky Pizzarelli, Wes, Ted Green, Johnny Smith,
Barney Kessel, Mundell Lowe, etc. He put ALL of them in the top register
of players because they're all masters and cannot be rated against one
another...just appreciated (or not) for who they were and what they said
with their music. Hope that helps a little. John.
pri...@nwark.com
> I recently borrowed a video from the public library featuring
> several jazz guitarists whose names I've heard bandied about
> for many years. I couldn't help but notice how much better
> Wes Montgomery sounded than the other guitarists featured, e.g.
> Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, Charlie Byrd, Kenny Burrell. Quite
> frankly, even comparing Joe Pass to Wes Montgomery seems like
> comparing Barney to Godzilla. Are my views slanted by my Rock/Metal
> background or was Wes Montgomery really so much better than those
> other clowns?
Yup. You're jaded. Wes learned from all those other cats.
John Galt
JCM900 wrote
>
>Gee, teach, is this a home work assignment? Will I be tested on this?
>instructional purposes is of little artistic merit.
>
Quite wrong. The best music often takes much work to comprehend. You, suh,
are obviously out of your league. Why not post some of your musical stylings
somewhere on the net, so that we may discern whether your complete lack of
ability to write about music varies directly or inversely with your ability
to play it. I suspect that very little "cramming" will be necessary for most
of us to hear where you're coming from. Unless you would kindly care to bend
over...
JG
Don Gauthier
money.
It will take you some time before you decide who's better (actually you
will learn who you prefer to listen to on a frequent basis - not "who's
better"). This depends on if you like jazz music. Who is your favorite
sax player? Do you prefer tenor sax or alto sax? How familiar are you
with Jazz music? Give yourself some time and learn to understand jazz
(its various forms).Eventually you may learn which jazz
musician/group/style you prefer (and this may not be a guitar player's
music).
Enjoy your jazz discovery journey. There is so much to listen to thanks
to all the fine jazz musicians.
Don
Don Gauthier
gi...@my-dejanews.com
em...@snugcove.com (peatea) wrote:
> In article <36A2EF...@mauimail.com>, JCM900@mauimail..com wrote:
>
> Who plays faster or louder is a dumb question. A good musician is not
> rated by his speed or volume. I was never impressed with Hendrix. He
> played more theatrics than music although he was a fine jazz musician.
I never saw Hendrix, hell i wasn't even born yet when he died. in 1970. but i
did see Wes Montgomery who was also a fine jazz guitarist as was Hendrix. One
famous shot of Wes shows him lighting his L5 on fire while onstage at the
Newport Jazz festival. Quite a scene matched only by his pelvic gyrations up
against his famous Standel amp during a wonderful octave solo...actually that
was the show i saw and he had something like 8 of these Standel amps onstage.
I may now be confusing Wes with Hendrix.
> Beck is more blues orientated but he can't play with his teeth.
i don't know that this statement is true. i would need to see dental records
to be really convinced.
Back to Wes Montgomery, i don't think he played with his teeth but he did play
with his thumb.
--
Adam Good
http://www.quicklink.com/~goodadam
gi...@my-dejanews.com
joegoldATicanDOTnet wrote:
>
>
> Will Borgeson wrote:
> >
> > 1) "Better" is totally subjective.
> >
> > 2) Speed is not that important. Taste, style, etc. mean so much more.
> >
> > 3) These kinds of comparisons are pretty lame, to put it mildly.
> >
> > Will
>
> Having no sense of humour is even lamer.
Not having perfect pitch is kind of a drag.
Polfus
the best there is."
Still, I vote for Page in the studio :)
Peace,
Polfus
Will Borgeson
: Having no sense of humour is even lamer.
Agreed, mate; but I didn't see any humor, or even humour, in the
original post - just the old invidious comparison thingie. Did I miss a
funny?
Will
George4908
>money.
>
You mean like in "Bear Whiz Beer"? (The secret's in the water.)
Rick Ireland
background. The other players you mentioned (Joe Pass, Barney Kessel,
Charlie Byrd and Kenny Burrell) are all giants, and many of them are
technically far superior players. You should listen to more of their
work if you are seriously interested in jazz guitar.
Rick Ireland
Rick Ireland
steve...@my-dejanews.com
gi...@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <email-ya02408000...@207.230.32.3>,
> em...@snugcove.com (peatea) wrote:
> > In article <36A2EF...@mauimail.com>, JCM900@mauimail..com wrote:
> >
> > Who plays faster or louder is a dumb question. A good musician is not
> > rated by his speed or volume. I was never impressed with Hendrix. He
> > played more theatrics than music although he was a fine jazz musician.
>
> I never saw Hendrix, hell i wasn't even born yet when he died. in 1970. but i
> did see Wes Montgomery who was also a fine jazz guitarist as was Hendrix. One
> famous shot of Wes shows him lighting his L5 on fire while onstage at the
> Newport Jazz festival. Quite a scene matched only by his pelvic gyrations up
> against his famous Standel amp during a wonderful octave solo...actually that
> was the show i saw and he had something like 8 of these Standel amps onstage.
> I may now be confusing Wes with Hendrix.
That Newport show with Wes is legendary but remains controversial. His
publicist says the lighting of the L5 on fire was a 'spontaneous' outpouring
of real emotion with Wes publicly showing his dissatisfaction over the 'pop'
direction his label was forcing him to take musically. I believe the song he
did it on was either 'California Dreamin' or maybe 'Eleanor Rigby' which
Creed Taylor had contracted a string section to accompany him on, so as to
sound like the hit 'pop instrumental' recordings which ironically brought
mass popularity to the master jazzman. According to the publicist, cries of
"Judas" from jazz purists in the audience pushed the artistically torn
Montgomery to light the guitar on fire.
Cynics, on the other hand, have posed questions over this oft repeated story
by asking where Montgomery got the liter fluid. The charred 'L5' was
eventually recovered by rock great Frank Zappa who discovered it was really
an Epiphone, not the Gibson Wes had been playing for most of the show. We'll
probably never know what really happened.
Inspite of the brief flirtation with pop, time has been kind to the musical
legacy of the great Wes Montgomery. He is remembered not for the few pop hits
which briefly introduced him to that fickle audience, but for his brilliant
jazz recordings, still considered 'must hear' music by many generations of
musicians and jazz fans. And he is remembered as one of the alltime greats on
the instrument.
> > Beck is more blues orientated but he can't play with his teeth.
>
> i don't know that this statement is true. i would need to see dental records
> to be really convinced.
>
> Back to Wes Montgomery, i don't think he played with his teeth but he did play
> with his thumb.
>
The Nit Nurse
<D0351BC3CD2BABA5.1BFA9D29...@library-proxy.airnews.ne
t>, back...@netexpress.net wrote:
|>x-no-archive: yes
|>
|>On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:53:44 -0500, "Jack A. Zucker" <j...@gwis.com>
|>wrote:
|>
|>>You ever heard of stretching your limits ? Art is often misunderstood
|>>until further examination.
|>
|> Agreed. When I first started listening to jazz, I didn't have
|>the "ears" to really appreciate it (at least not as much as I now
|>can).
Funny you should say that, but me too. Now, 20 years later, it still bores
the pants off me.
The Nit Nurse
|>JCM900 wrote
|>>
|>>Gee, teach, is this a home work assignment? Will I be tested on this?
|>>Quite frankly, any music that one has to cram for to appreciate,
|>>probably isn't worth listening to. Music, whose primarily use is for
|>>instructional purposes is of little artistic merit.
|>>
|>
|>Quite wrong. The best music often takes much work to comprehend.
In think you mean 'pretentious' rather than 'best'. The 'best' music has
popular appeal and longevity. Pretentious music, on the other hand, is
drooled over by musical snobs trying to pretend that the latest cacophany
will only be truly revealed to their elitist little clique.
You, suh,
|>are obviously out of your league. Why not post some of your musical stylings
|>somewhere on the net, so that we may discern whether your complete lack of
|>ability to write about music varies directly or inversely with your ability
|>to play it.
I see that you are member of that clique to which I refer.
Andrew Sachs
over played. He does do a KILLER robot dance though!!!
And Page is a great keybordist, but I think he is often overshadowed by
the other members of Phish. But he was never really that flashy so I
doubt that he minded.
Why would you want to compare these two anyway? You must be weird.
Andrew
JCM900
>
> The other players you mentioned (Joe Pass, Barney Kessel,
> Charlie Byrd and Kenny Burrell) are all giants, and many of them are
> technically far superior players.
In rock music of the late 80's, there was a phenomenon known as
Shred Guitar which referred to a class of guitarists who were
considered "technically far superior players" e.g. Steve Vai,
Joe Satriani, Vinny Moore, Tony McAlpine. The problem with
these "technically far superior players" was that their
playing came across a bland, unemotional and simply not
very entertaining. When I listened to Kessel, Pass, Burrell
etc, I got the same vibe as I got from Vai, Satriani, etc. For
all their supposed "technical superiority", these guitarists
simply weren't saying anything. If Jazz has become so academic that
the emotional feeling a listener gets when he hears it becomes
irrelevant, that is sad.
Jack A. Zucker
> In think you mean 'pretentious' rather than 'best'. The 'best' music has
> popular appeal and longevity.
You mean like Madonna and Michael Jackson ?
Jack A. Zucker
> Funny you should say that, but me too. Now, 20 years later, it still bores
> the pants off me.
*WELL*, if it bores the pants off of *YOU*, I guess we should sit up and
take notice then...
Jack A. Zucker
>
> I would say that your views are definitely slanted by your Rock/Metal
> Charlie Byrd and Kenny Burrell) are all giants, and many of them are
> work if you are seriously interested in jazz guitar.
>
> Rick Ireland
None of those players were technically superior to Wes in any regard.
-Jaz
Daniel Cooper
hard words. I think the common ground here is Charlie Christian, who had
maybe as much influence on rockabilly and early rock and roll as he did on
Wes' guitar style.
Dan
The Nit Nurse wrote in message ...
>In article
><D0351BC3CD2BABA5.1BFA9D29...@library-proxy.airnews.n
e
>t>, back...@netexpress.net wrote:
>
>|>x-no-archive: yes
>|>
>|>On Mon, 18 Jan 1999 14:53:44 -0500, "Jack A. Zucker" <j...@gwis.com>
>|>wrote:
>|>
>|>>You ever heard of stretching your limits ? Art is often misunderstood
>|>>until further examination.
>|>
>|> Agreed. When I first started listening to jazz, I didn't have
>|>the "ears" to really appreciate it (at least not as much as I now
>|>can).
>
Ed Rotberg
>I agree - I don't like B&J either. Nothin like a tub of Haagan Daas
>Chocolate for me. But it's the marketing I'm after here. Come on
>what's a good icecream flavor for Joe or Wes?
Coffee flavored Ice cream could be "Cup-o-Joe Pass"
Bubble Gum flavored could be "Wes Mont-Gum-mery"
mixed berry flavor = "Wes Montgom-berry"
Any flavor (ie Chocolate) = "Joe, Pass the Chocolate!"
BTW, Joe, We will probably stop by to see the Megatones Saturday
night. See you then.
= Ed =
Daniel Cooper
JCM900 wrote in message <36A4BA...@mauimail.com>...
>In rock music of the late 80's, there was a phenomenon known as
>Shred Guitar which referred to a class of guitarists who were
>considered "technically far superior players" e.g. Steve Vai,
>Joe Satriani, Vinny Moore, Tony McAlpine. The problem with
>these "technically far superior players" was that their
>playing came across a bland, unemotional and simply not
>very entertaining. When I listened to Kessel, Pass, Burrell
>etc, I got the same vibe as I got from Vai, Satriani, etc. For
>all their supposed "technical superiority", these guitarists
>simply weren't saying anything. If Jazz has become so academic that
>the emotional feeling a listener gets when he hears it becomes
>irrelevant, that is sad.
>
Hey, Mr. JCM900, that's you. Don't make a general rule out of your own
inability to appreciate their playing. Lots of people find plenty of
emotional depth in jazz. What's really sad is that a lot of folks like you
are deprived of great joy because they dismiss certain styles of music on
the basis of a few listenings. It's alright by me. I don't think you're
inferior in any way because you don't like these guys. Personally, I'm very
happy that I can enjoy the Ramones while Kessel's guitar solo on "All the
Things You Are" from the Charlie Parker Jam Session (Verve 833 564-2) never
fails to send chills up my spine.
Dan
Joey Goldstein
JCM900 wrote:
>
> Rick Ireland wrote:
> >
> > The other players you mentioned (Joe Pass, Barney Kessel,
> > Charlie Byrd and Kenny Burrell) are all giants, and many of them are
> > technically far superior players.
>
> In rock music of the late 80's, there was a phenomenon known as
> Shred Guitar which referred to a class of guitarists who were
> considered "technically far superior players" e.g. Steve Vai,
> Joe Satriani, Vinny Moore, Tony McAlpine. The problem with
> these "technically far superior players" was that their
> playing came across a bland, unemotional and simply not
> very entertaining.
Not to me. I think those guys sound great. I think they got shafted by
the record companies because they were not "popular", which seems to be
your yardstick for greatness.
I'd rather listen to any one of those guys over Barenaked Ladies or
Hootie and the Blowfish, or the Backstreet Boys or Spice Girls.
Gimme a break.
> When I listened to Kessel, Pass, Burrell
> etc, I got the same vibe as I got from Vai, Satriani, etc. For
> all their supposed "technical superiority", these guitarists
> simply weren't saying anything. If Jazz has become so academic that
> the emotional feeling a listener gets when he hears it becomes
> irrelevant, that is sad.
Now if your original post had been that well worded and insightful
nobody would be jumping on you now.
There's a lot of great music that doesn't do it for me. I'm not a big
Wes fan. I don't like Bartok or Shoenberg either but I'd have to be a
dink to call them "clowns".
--
Regards:
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Composer/Bandleader/Teacher
Check out: http://home.ican.net/~joegold
Reply To: <joegoldATicanDOTnet>
Lawson Stone
wrote:
> Rick Ireland wrote:
>>
>> The other players you mentioned (Joe Pass, Barney Kessel,
>> Charlie Byrd and Kenny Burrell) are all giants, and many of them are
>> technically far superior players.
>
> In rock music of the late 80's, there was a phenomenon known as
> Shred Guitar which referred to a class of guitarists who were
> considered "technically far superior players" e.g. Steve Vai,
> Joe Satriani, Vinny Moore, Tony McAlpine. The problem with
> these "technically far superior players" was that their
> playing came across a bland, unemotional and simply not
> very entertaining. When I listened to Kessel, Pass, Burrell
> etc, I got the same vibe as I got from Vai, Satriani, etc. For
> all their supposed "technical superiority", these guitarists
> simply weren't saying anything. If Jazz has become so academic that
> the emotional feeling a listener gets when he hears it becomes
> irrelevant, that is sad.
>
>
The more you talk, the deeper you step in it.
I have heard various criticisms of Joe Pass, but never, ever, have I heard
the criticism that he is "academic" and plays without feeling. Someone may
not like Barney Kessel, but nobody could say his playing was academic and
devoid of feeling.
"Academic" just isn't the term one hears about those guys, coming from any
direction.
In your knowledge of jazz, you have been blessed with a gift: upward
mobility.
--
*****************************************************
"Go sleep it off Ike; you talk too much for a fighting man"--Wyatt Earp
*****************************************************
Lawson Stone-Professor of Old Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary
Always Trolling for Conversation about: Jazz Guitar, Cowboy Action Shooting,
Leathercraft, Horses, Old West History and Lore
Michael Coggins
>JCM900 wrote:
>
>> Quite frankly, any music that one has to cram for to appreciate,
>> probably isn't worth listening to.
>
>You ever heard of stretching your limits ? Art is often misunderstood
>until further examination. It always cracks me up when my 18-24 year old
>students have the definitive answers to all of life's questions.
One of the best things about music is it's not elitist bullshit like painting is. If I
into a gallery with modern art in it I see pictures of coloured squares. This means
nothing to me unless I hear the art critic going "I feel this piece signifies how much of
a wanker I am..."
Michael Coggins
Scotty
Jack A. Zucker wrote in message <36A39148...@gwis.com>...
>JCM900 wrote:
>
>> Quite frankly, any music that one has to cram for to appreciate,
>> probably isn't worth listening to.
>
>You ever heard of stretching your limits ? Art is often misunderstood
>until further examination. It always cracks me up when my 18-24 year old
>students have the definitive answers to all of life's questions.
>
Well stop asking them the questions and you'll find yourself having a
productive time in the class room:-)
Scotty
Joe Bac
> Coffee flavored Ice cream could be "Cup-o-Joe Pass"
> Bubble Gum flavored could be "Wes Mont-Gum-mery"
> mixed berry flavor = "Wes Montgom-berry"
> Any flavor (ie Chocolate) = "Joe, Pass the Chocolate!"
Very creative! See, that's what I was after.
> BTW, Joe, We will probably stop by to see the Megatones Saturday
> night. See you then.
Come on down. Love seeing you and the Mrs. I'll have the new Suhr
there you can check it out. Won't have the Guytron though - waiting on
another unit. Believe it or not, after one gig with the Guytron, I sort
of feel like I'm missing it already. Such a delema - guess I'll just
have to use the SLO :-) Singing those Silicon Valley Yuppie Blues...
--
joe...@cup.hp.com
RJClayton
>> etc, I got the same vibe as I got from Vai, Satriani, etc. For
>> all their supposed "technical superiority", these guitarists
>> simply weren't saying anything.
Try Kessell's old "To Swing or Not to Swing" and tell me it's technical.
Admittedly, that's an old, old recording, but, damn, that's small-group swing
playing of the first order! For the record, I like Kessell's early stuff
better than, for example, Kenny Burrell. But different strokes for different
folks, I guess.
Bob (Zoot) Clayton, S.R.
Quality music since 1963.
Not A Speck Of Cereal
[] Music From Another Planet wrote:
[] >
[] > Its a very sad day when comparisons like this are made.. Very sad
[]
[] I don't think so. CD's are expensive. If I have only enough
[] money in my budget to buy 1 jazz CD, I want to know who's better,
[] Wes Montgomery or Joe Pass.
My suggestion for one who would dismiss jazz legends as clowns after
only a precursory listen? You should save your money for the latest
Yngwie Malmsteen CD.
it's just an idea
"What is a cynic? A man who knows the price of everything, and the
value of nothing." - Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan
..............................................................
Remove X's from my email address above to reply
Xchr...@microsoft.comX -- Seattle, WA.
[These opinions are personal views only and only my personal views]
Mike Ellenberger
that's
all it means. Doesn't necessarily mean they can't play the instrument.
Tastes change. Someday you may appreciate these players more or
maybe not. All it means is they aren't speaking to you at the moment.
You've studied all their work?
Mike
JCM900 wrote:
> Rick Ireland wrote:
> >
> > The other players you mentioned (Joe Pass, Barney Kessel,
> > Charlie Byrd and Kenny Burrell) are all giants, and many of them are
> > technically far superior players.
>
> In rock music of the late 80's, there was a phenomenon known as
> Shred Guitar which referred to a class of guitarists who were
> considered "technically far superior players" e.g. Steve Vai,
> Joe Satriani, Vinny Moore, Tony McAlpine. The problem with
> these "technically far superior players" was that their
> playing came across a bland, unemotional and simply not
> very entertaining. When I listened to Kessel, Pass, Burrell
> etc, I got the same vibe as I got from Vai, Satriani, etc. For
> all their supposed "technical superiority", these guitarists
Not A Speck Of Cereal
[] I recently borrowed a video from the public library featuring
[] several jazz guitarists whose names I've heard bandied about
[] for many years. I couldn't help but notice how much better
[] Wes Montgomery sounded than the other guitarists featured, e.g.
[] Joe Pass, Barney Kessel, Charlie Byrd, Kenny Burrell. Quite
[] frankly, even comparing Joe Pass to Wes Montgomery seems like
[] comparing Barney to Godzilla. Are my views slanted by my Rock/Metal
[] background or was Wes Montgomery really so much better than those
[] other clowns?
If you're not so sure if your opinion was correct that you had to ask
on all of these newsgroups, how could you end your post with that
clown troll? Joe Pass is a master, I've seen Charlie Byrd live and
he's a dream player; Wes is sublime. They're all good -- you simply
prefer one over all of the others because your ear isn't jazz trained
-- why disparage the other players simply because you don't "get it"?
DJMangin
>happy that I can enjoy the Ramones while Kessel's guitar solo on "All the
>Things You Are"
there you go. Like what you like, I'll like what I like. I just get tired of
the flaming of others musical choices...
difference of opinion, that's what makes horse races
jimmybruno
Your ignorance is showing. You are like the guy that looks at a Rembrandt
and says it is not as goodaas or I get the same feeling as when I look at a
Batman Comic book!
Joey Goldstein
Wesley Dick wrote:
>
> Back to Stan Getz, the way I hear him play and what he's saying thru
> his horn I've often thought that if I could whisper those same
> phrases into the ears of beautiful women I'd be the Cassanova of the
> 90's even at my age.
I heard you *were* the Cassanova of the '90s Wes!
Don Gauthier
don't seem to understand.
Take a walk. When you think you are ready to come back and post
intelligent thoughts, do so.
Don
bwilley
nasty replies, but I have often witnessed useless physical facility in
musicians: musicians who can play more notes per second kind of crap, but
it doesn't impress me. I'll go watch a sporting event if I want to see a
physical feat, but in music many times the simple piece says the most.
JCM900 wrote:
> Rick Ireland wrote:
> >
> > The other players you mentioned (Joe Pass, Barney Kessel,
> > Charlie Byrd and Kenny Burrell) are all giants, and many of them are
> > technically far superior players.
>
Not A Speck Of Cereal
[]
[] > Quite frankly, any music that one has to cram for to appreciate,
[] > probably isn't worth listening to.
[]
[] You ever heard of stretching your limits ? Art is often misunderstood
[] until further examination. It always cracks me up when my 18-24 year old
[] students have the definitive answers to all of life's questions.
Some of my favorite CDs were ones that I didn't like at first. Some
of my favorite groups and jazz artists were ones that I just couldn't
take, wasn't yet equipped to intake, when I first heard it earlier in
my life.
Not A Speck Of Cereal
[]
[] Funny you should say that, but me too. Now, 20 years later, it still bores
[] the pants off me.
Really. . . why don't you come on over and I'll put on some jazz :-]
Not A Speck Of Cereal
[]
[] JCM900 wrote
[] >
[] >Gee, teach, is this a home work assignment? Will I be tested on this?
[] >instructional purposes is of little artistic merit.
[] >
[]
[] Quite wrong. The best music often takes much work to comprehend.
Quite so. We could give a way over generalized statement in return
like "any music that is so easy to digest probably isn't worth even
trying, since you'll tire of it so rapidly"
Not A Speck Of Cereal
[] In think you mean 'pretentious' rather than 'best'.
With that very statement, you define yourself more pretentious than
anything I found in other posts in this thread. That's part of the
trouble with so much cross-posting -- it brings out the maximum number
of trolls.
Follow-ups set appropriately
Wesley Dick
Possibly your ear needs additional training. I'd suggest you start by
listening to Lawrence Welk until you can figure out what he's doing.
(End of dig).
I'm not familiar with the names of the players of the 80's which you
refer to but am very familiar with the playing of the old geezers. I
was on the bop scene back in the late 40's when it started to happen.
It was simply an exciting evolution of swing. And my roots go back
ever farther than that into swing and dixieland. Even LeadBelly
Ledbetter! (Check your jazz history books).
Jazz ain't just technique. Some of the old dixie cats were very
limited technically and had no idols to look back on for inspiration
or ideas. Many horn men couldn't play unless the song was in Bb or F.
THEY were the ones who were making it happen so there was no
comparisons to be made with what went before which was zilch. I know
an old black dixieland clarinet man in New Orleans now in his 90s who
can play soul wrenching blues solos without a lot of fancy fingerwork.
My wife can't hear (understand) what he's doing but I sure as hell
can. Learn to read between the 'lines'. In some cases it's not what
they say with notes but what they imply. Stan Getz was great for
those lulls in his playing where he would sorta lead you up to a point
and trick your brain into supplying the follow thru. Of course since
it was 'your' ideas it made you like 'him' more.
Listen to some of Louis Armstrongs stuff and learn to appreciate what
he was doing at the time. Simple and melodic but not the melody as
written. I hope that what I'm trying to get across isn't too subtle
for your ears and I don't mean this as to your ability to understand
what I'm saying but rather what those old cats were saying.
Most of my kids are older than you and were also unfortunate in having
grown up listening to rock music instead of the old standards of the
20s-40s. Maybe you don't like that kind of music but I'd suggest that
you start by analyzing what those composers were doing. Some of the
chord progressions are rather simple but many are more complex and
challenging to use as the basis for a jazz solo. Then try to 'say'
smething on your instrument. But then again your comment below
indicates that you don't hear what those 'clowns' are saying.
Back to Stan Getz, the way I hear him play and what he's saying thru
his horn I've often thought that if I could whisper those same
phrases into the ears of beautiful women I'd be the Cassanova of the
90's even at my age.
Wes
http://www.GeoCities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/1030
P.S. Speaking of beautiful women check out what my whisperings
(phrasing) landed me at my wifes site. Check
http://www.GeoCities.com/BourbonStreet/1280 and start learning how to
communicate with others more tactfully.
Luis
professional...
Tom Jaffe wrote in message <36A20EAE...@eesjobs.com>...
>Wes Montgomery was way better than those other clowns. There is nothing
>wrong with your ear or musicality. He did not sound like a dork like the
>others. Wes was cool and smooth sounding. I had the same reaction as you
>when viewing the video (I assume it was "Legends of Jazz Guitar) and I
>have played jazz professionally for 15 years. Wes was to jazz guitar
>what Jimi Hendrix was to rock guitar.
>He left everyone else in the dust!
RJClayton
>an old black dixieland clarinet man in New Orleans now in his 90s who
>can play soul wrenching blues solos without a lot of fancy fingerwork.
Reminds me of George Lewis! Making me want to get out that old "Musicman" LP
of his, from the 50s.
Bob (nostalgia ain't what it used to be) Clayton, S.R.
Quality music since 1963.
steve...@my-dejanews.com
JCM900@mauimail..com wrote:
> Rick Ireland wrote:
> >
> > The other players you mentioned (Joe Pass, Barney Kessel,
> > Charlie Byrd and Kenny Burrell) are all giants, and many of them are
> > technically far superior players.
>
> Shred Guitar which referred to a class of guitarists who were
> considered "technically far superior players" e.g. Steve Vai,
> Joe Satriani, Vinny Moore, Tony McAlpine. The problem with
> these "technically far superior players" was that their
> playing came across a bland, unemotional and simply not
> very entertaining. When I listened to Kessel, Pass, Burrell
> etc, I got the same vibe as I got from Vai, Satriani, etc. For
> all their supposed "technical superiority", these guitarists
> simply weren't saying anything. If Jazz has become so academic that
> the emotional feeling a listener gets when he hears it becomes
> irrelevant, that is sad.
>
I have favorite 'superior players' (to use your term) in these and many other
genres whose music moves me very much. It is sad that a listener can't listen
to a great solo or performance, technical or not, in any genre and not be
moved, somehow, by it. I've seen all the players you've mentioned here live
and they all moved me in some way, grequently very intensely.
Admittedly, sometimes it was the jawdropping technique Kessell and Vai have
at their command-that is an incredible and frequently inspirational thing to
see a player do. Later, in the same performances, both Kessel and Vai had
moments of extremely beautiful lyricysm in other songs. Some of the country
guy's solos do it the same things to me. Blues guys are way into emotion.
I've also been moved by excellent classical or flamenco guitarists as well as
classical violinists and pianists in recitals. Other times, a fiddle player
or a steel guitarist will blow my mind.
It took me a while when I started playing, but, luckily I was exposed to a
lot of different styles and excellent players in my formative years. At first
I Had to 'open my ears'(and mind) to the various music and players through my
concurrent gigs in a rock T-40 cover band, a country band (made the most
money there-but I also learned how good some of those pickers were), and an
all original rock band. I also worked at a small town radio station that,
typical of the time, devoted various sections of the day to completely
different types of music.
As far as jazz guitar, I saw the late Joe Pass probably the most of any of the
masters and about half of the performances were solo electric jazz guitar. He
had plenty of technique, as he played complete songs using moving chord
melodies, bass lines and single note runs. But he was not about technique at
all. He was about music. His technique only came into play as it pertained to
the music he was making.
All you needed to do was watch him close his eyes and play that beautiful (and
sometimes breathtaking) stuff...and Listen...to know it was a special magic
that he brought to the instrument. Just as most of the players mentioned here
(and lots of others) do.
I recently read one of those "quotes from past interviews" that they
currently put in the 'lessons section' of Guitar Player. It was from Joe
Pass, circa late 1970's. When asked about his use of jazzy chordal
substitutions, he said (and I'm paraphrasing), that he didn't think about it
much, didn't know the names of many of the chords that wound up in a
particular song on a particular night (off the top of his head), but that
wasn't the point. The point was the music. Not the technique or theory,
although they are the building blocks, but he was past trying to analyze why
he did what he did. He came to make music. IMOHO Steve
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Not A Speck Of Cereal
[...]
[] One of the best things about music is it's not elitist bullshit like painting is.
Painting is elitist bullshit?!? Man, don't quit your day job.
[] If I
[] into a gallery with modern art in it I see pictures of coloured squares. This means
[] nothing to me unless I hear the art critic going "I feel this piece signifies how much of
[] a wanker I am..."
Michael, art (of which music is one category) isn't contained in a
gallery. Wake up and smell the coffee.
Art is Art.
dsha...@aol.com
JCM900@mauimail..com wrote:
> Bob Agnew wrote:
> >
> > Apparently the Rock/Metal has impaired your hearing. I
> > recommend listening to several hundred jazz guitar solos by all these
> > artists over and over again for many years until your right brain >begins to comprehend what's going on in these solos.
>
> Gee, teach, is this a home work assignment? Will I be tested on this?
> Quite frankly, any music that one has to cram for to appreciate,
> probably isn't worth listening to. Music, whose primarily use is for
> instructional purposes is of little artistic merit.
>
>
Excuse me for jumping in. I'm new to this ng but have some knowledge
of jazz and jazz guitar. I think Bob Agnew and JCM900 both make
valid points. Mr. Agnew is the only poster I noticed in this long
thread to mention Charlie Christian. Montgomery, Pass and Kessel
all play in the style of Charlie Christian. If JCM900 wants to take a
shortcut to understanding most of the guitarists mentioned, I suggest
that he listen to Christian, who played with Benny Goodman in the
early 40s. I think he died in 1943 at the age of about 24, yet he
inspired generations of Jazz guitarists. Some refer to him as the
Messiah of the electric jazz guitar. He appeared on the jazz scene,
young but fully matured musically. He made a few recordings to
show others the way jazz guitar was supposed to be played.
Then he died young from T.B.
Like Montgomery, Christian didn't use an elaborate technique.
He played with a pick, but only played down-strokes to sound like
a horn. That gave it a more even sound. Kessel wrote an article
about Charlie Christian and his technique in Guitar Player Magazine, in
1983 I think. I read the article and saw Kessel perform shortly
thereafter at the now-defunct "Charlie's Place" in the Georgetown
section of Washington, D.C. In fact I struck up a conversation with
Kessel during his break by mentioning the GP article and asking about
Christian. We talked for a good five minutes. He was quite friendly.
I also talked to Herb Ellis at the same show which featured Kessel, Ellis
and Byrd playing together with a bassist and drums. It was a fantastic
show. I saw them on two different nights. Ellis got excited when
I mentioned Christian. He kept saying, "That's the man. That's the man."
(For what it's worth, Ellis also advised me, as a guitarist, to hum to
myself as I solo. He said it would help a lot.)
JCM900, your instincts were correct about Montgomery. He IS
considered one of the top jazz guitarists of all time. That's not to
say that the others mentioned are slouches by any means, but Montgomery
is the cream of the crop. I read in a jazz book several years ago
(don't ask me to name it) that the consensus among jazz musicologists
for the top three jazz guitarists were Wes Montgomery, Tal Farlow and
Jim Hall. Trust your instincts and your ears. They seem to be on the
mark. And remember to listen to Charlie Christian. He's "the man!"
---- Dave Sharp
TIMOTHY GUEGUEN
: JCM900 wrote in message <36A27F...@mauimail.com>...
: >Music From Another Planet wrote:
: >>
: >> Its a very sad day when comparisons like this are made.. Very sad
: >
: >I don't think so. CD's are expensive. If I have only enough
: >money in my budget to buy 1 jazz CD, I want to know who's better,
: >Wes Montgomery or Joe Pass.
: buy one CD at Warehouse...listen to it..return and get the other CD..listen
: to it
: then go back and get the first CD you returned...because you realize you
: have to have both...
Better yet go visit your local public library. With luck they'll have
lots of CDs to borrow allowing you to check out all sorts of folks at no
cost.
tim gueguen 101867
Music From Another Planet
superior" For fucks sake do you refuse to digest the meaning of the word
"art" ? As for your comment ""technically far superior players come across
as bland, unemotional and simply not very entertaining" this is a bad joke
right???
JCM900 wrote:
> Rick Ireland wrote:
> >
> > The other players you mentioned (Joe Pass, Barney Kessel,
> > Charlie Byrd and Kenny Burrell) are all giants, and many of them are
> > technically far superior players.
>
> In rock music of the late 80's, there was a phenomenon known as
> Shred Guitar which referred to a class of guitarists who were
> considered "technically far superior players" e.g. Steve Vai,
> Joe Satriani, Vinny Moore, Tony McAlpine. The problem with
> these "technically far superior players" was that their
> playing came across a bland, unemotional and simply not
> very entertaining. When I listened to Kessel, Pass, Burrell
> etc, I got the same vibe as I got from Vai, Satriani, etc. For
> all their supposed "technical superiority", these guitarists
> simply weren't saying anything. If Jazz has become so academic that
> the emotional feeling a listener gets when he hears it becomes
> irrelevant, that is sad.
--
Regards
Ivan Bertolla--Composer,Film Music,Arranger,MIDI Studio
Music From Another Planet
http://www.bertolla.com
email: off...@bertolla.com
ICQ 7934153
Debut Instrumental CD "Beyond The Skies Eternity"