Why not get cleanest amp and add pedals
RobMac
I see so many players get an amp with a great overdrive/distortion,
maybe Mesas or Marshalls, etc, and then add distortion pedals and
other effects. What is wrong with getting the cleanest amp possible,
with lots of headroom (maybe the Fender amp for steel guitar - ultra
clean) and then adding your fav pedals?
I'm now contemplating purchasing an amp. I've tried a few at various
price ranges. The best of those was the Mesa Lone Star Special, but it
is beyond my price range. I like great clean sounds, and some time ago
bought a Jetter Gain Stage Red overdrive pedal for Dumble-type sounds.
The amp I had kept breaking up too soon (Fender Blues Junior) and I've
now sold it. So, should I go for an ultra clean amp and add pedals to
it? Suggestions welcome?
So two questions: should I go clean and add pedals? If not, what is
wrong with that idea?
Rob
Les Cargill
This is one strategy. No particular strategy is inherently better than
any other. It just does what you want, or it doesn't.
--
Les Cargill
Nil
rec.music.makers.guitar:
> So two questions: should I go clean and add pedals? If not, what
> is wrong with that idea?
You should do whatever works best for you to make the music you intend
to make. Both strategies are used by guitarists for decades. Both have
plusses and minuses. The only way for you to know is to try it out.
RobMac
Well, yes, but that could be said about any gear question. What are
the plusses and minuses? It's difficult to get all this set up at the
local guitar store. Just thought someone here might have some
experience to relate.
Rob
Les Cargill
Tubes can - *can* - overload in interesting ways. They can
also overload in decidedly ugly ways.
Each permutation of gear will have a different vibe. What a lot
of people really want is the sound of, say, a Marshall stack on 10.
But they want that without the pain - in terms of volume, weight
and cost.
What I've done is use a Fender Super Champ XD, which has both a
modeller and tubes. Kinda like the old Music Man amps had
solid state preamps and tube power sections. I run that through
a Marshall cab, and it sounds good to me.
--
Les Cargill
Geetar Dave
What's wrong? Absolutely nothing. That's a common approach, and it
also happens to be what I settled on for live shows. I needed the best
possible sound with the least hassles. You can make a good clean amp
sound great with a distortion pedal, but good distortion amps don't
usually clean up too nicely (IMHO).
I needed the ability to be loud and clean when needed, or quiet and
distorted, or any variation of gain and volume. So I started with a
beautiful '68 Fender Twin Reverb and added some pedals. Eventually my
Vox AC30 became my live amp of choice. I do have a great Marshall
combo, but I only use it for recording. I also don't use pedals very
often for recording.
Do what works for you. I think clean amps make more sense unless
you're playing nothing but balls-out guitar rock. That was never my
gig (I occasionally wished it had been).
Get your sound however you can. If you can do it more simply, aspire
to that.
-dave-----:::
www.myspace.com/geetardave
So
Nil
rec.music.makers.guitar:
> Well, yes, but that could be said about any gear question. What
> are the plusses and minuses? It's difficult to get all this set up
> at the local guitar store. Just thought someone here might have
> some experience to relate.
Clean amp with pedals... possible to get an excellent clean. Distortion
pedals can give a reasonable dirty sound. Other kinds of pedals can
sound very good.
Amp distortion can potentially sound the best, if that's what you're
going for. But you will probably not get a great clean sound, and time-
based pedals are hard to integrate well.
It all depends on how much value you put on versatility and what kinds
of sounds you require. You say nothing about what kind of music you
intend to make, which is why meaningful suggestions can't really be
made.
RobMac
Fair point. I have a Strat, a 335 and a Parker Tele. I play Blues but
not heavy, some jazz and funk, no effects. Clean but with some
breakup, but would like to have the option of creamy, soaring lead,
which is why I bought the Jetter Gain Stage Red
http://www.jettergear.com/products/gainstageRed.cfm for Robben Ford,
Larry Carlton type sounds.
I tried the Mesa 5:25 but found it too noisy for single coils. Later
this week I'll be trying the Engl Classic 50, which is reputed to have
a great clean channel. I was just wondering why players go to the
expense of buying expensive amps with apparently great distortion
channels, yet still end up adding overdrive and distortion pedals?
Isn't it better to distort a clean sound than distorting an already
distorted sound?
But, yes, I agree, just keep trying things until you get something
that works for you.
Thanks for all comments!
Rob
AJ
b9150a...@x41g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, lutep...@googlemail.com
says...
In a post on another board, I recently posted this and thought it might
be useful here:
"It's interesting how channel switching amps have evolved over the
years. The early Mesa MKs used a Fender style layout with added gain and
often needed the bass set to zero. The tone controls were common to both
channels. The next version got a 'fix' in the graphic EQ at the end of
the preamp, but the tone controls were still shared. A common complaint
was 'I can't set the tone for one channel without screwing up the
other'. Finally, the MKIV's got separate tone controls for the channels
and people started complaining about too many knobs to turn. Marshalls
aren't quite as bad, but went through something similar. Isn't there a
current Marshall head with 3 sets on tone controls?
But the dream for a lot of players and amp builders has been Fender
clean & Marshall or Mesa distortion. Fender tried and got close with the
Prosonic. It had shared tone controls, but the pots were stacked and had
different value caps, etc. One of the better one's I've played is the
Rivera R & M series amps. My solution is a Twin Reverb for loud & clean,
a TS808 for Fender overdrive, a Marshall 'Guvnor for Marshall
distortion, and occasionally both(!). But even with Marshalls, many
players prefer the non-channel switching Plexi as a basis for tone with
pedals, or a Vox AC30, or a Fender tweed Bassman or tweed Twin."
More specific to your question, one reason players end up using pedals
with channel switching amps is because of the shared EQ, or the amp's
distortion isn't very good, or their needs change and a pedal with more
or less distortion suits them better. Besides the EQ, a good channel
switching amp also needs a good FX loop. This allows time based FX such
as phasers, chorus, reverb to be used after the amp's distortion. There
are also differences in how useful the loops are. A simple pre-amp
out/power-amp in is a serial connection, so everything goes through the
loop and there's no level controls. A lot of stompboxes don't work well
with these, but rack-mount line-level stuff does. Many amps add level
controls and can take some stompboxes, but still use serial loops, while
others have level controls, a parallel loop and a wet/dry mix. All of
this, plus the distortion and channel switching adds a lot of complexity
and cost to these amps, if done right.
In relation to what I'm doing(Twin Reverb + pedals), I have a good Tele,
a couple of Rics(6 & 12), and an LP, and probably need more clean than
you do for country clean with the Tele and for making the Ric 12 do what
it does at outdoor fest type gigs. I also play blues, rockabilly,
classic 50's & 60's rock so heavy metal-type distortion is a rare need.
The disadvantage to loud & clean amps like the TR is weight(still
lighter than a 4X12 bottom), lack of an FX loop, and no master volume on
many that have some natural distortion.
Robben Ford often uses Super Reverbs as a basis for his sound. Besides
the RI, used Silverface SR's can usually be had for $1200-$1500. There's
also the Vibroverb RI, and I know a couple of serious blues players who
say an ES335 and a Vibroking is a match made in heaven.
I'm sure others will chime in. Hope this was helpfull.
Rick N. Backer
<lutep...@googlemail.com> did courageously avow:
It is sad you can't afford the Lone Star Special. I love mine. What
I particularly like is that it allows me to work without pedals by
using the channel output wattage to advantage. The 5W allows me to
push it to distortion at lower volume levels and the 30W gives me lots
of headroom if I need it for clean.
Barring that, I would suggest a Fender Deluxe Reverb with a couple of
well chosen pedals. This amps gives you oodles of clean and is
reasonably priced used or new.
RobMac
Thanks, Rick. I think it is sad too :-(
The Express 5:25 has some similar qualities, but there is a definite
noise issue, mentioned by many reviewers and noticed by myself, which
the Lone Star does not have. Mesas are hugely expensive in the UK.
Taking a trip to the guitar store on Wednesday morning. I'll try the
Fender Deluxe Reverb as well as the Engl - a German make, maybe not so
familiar to USA guitarists, but well-respected in Europe.
Rob
Les Cargill
>>>> You say nothing about what kind of music you intend to make, which is why meaningful suggestions can't really be made.<<<
>
> Fair point. I have a Strat, a 335 and a Parker Tele. I play Blues but
> not heavy, some jazz and funk, no effects. Clean but with some
> breakup, but would like to have the option of creamy, soaring lead,
> which is why I bought the Jetter Gain Stage Red
> http://www.jettergear.com/products/gainstageRed.cfm for Robben Ford,
> Larry Carlton type sounds.
>
Have you tried a Fender Super Reverb?
> I tried the Mesa 5:25 but found it too noisy for single coils. Later
> this week I'll be trying the Engl Classic 50, which is reputed to have
> a great clean channel. I was just wondering why players go to the
> expense of buying expensive amps with apparently great distortion
> channels, yet still end up adding overdrive and distortion pedals?
Beats me, unless the goal is just different color.
> Isn't it better to distort a clean sound than distorting an already
> distorted sound?
>
> But, yes, I agree, just keep trying things until you get something
> that works for you.
>
> Thanks for all comments!
>
> Rob
>
--
Les Cargill
ksmithdc
through these old Yamaha 100 watt solid state amps from the 80's.
G100 or something like that. Anyway, they were getting a very nice
warm clean sound with a very pleasant sounding reverb. Then he
plugged into a pedal board which contained an Xotic BB Plus
http://www.xotic.us/effects/bb_plus/ overdrive/distortion & a Boss
DD-5. He got a really nice, liquidy, 100 pound violin tone.
As long as the base clean tone is good, you can build on top of that
to produce some great sounds.
Kevin
RobMac
Screamer. I had no intention of playing the latter, due to its metal-
associated name, but the sales guy suggested I might like the clean
sound. So, I A/B'd them. I was surprised to find that the clean
channel on the Screamer is sublime - very Fenderish, as good if not
better than most Fenders. A fantastic ringing sound with warmth as
well. Very nice. The Classic 50 is a quality amp too, but I preferred
the clean from the Screamer. These amps are cheaper than the Mesas, at
least in the UK, but not cheap by any means. However, I might manage
to raise the finances somehow. The overdrive tones are useable too.
Very surprised overall. But why do they call it a Screamer? Sounds
great with an archtop, fingerstyle jazz, nice reverb, too. Very
versatile.
By the way, one of the guitars I played through it was the Squire
Classic Vibe 50s Strat. I read a great five-star review of it in some
guitar magazine. I had been playing custom-shop strats, teles and les
pauls through it, and have to say the Squire was so close in overall
quality as to be as good as. I'm sure a blindfold test would fool the
vast majority of people. What an incredible guitar for the price!
Check them out.
Rob
JMK
I think Ritchie Blackmore plays Engls...
jtees4
wrote:
Still lovin' my Super Champ XD too!!!! I have not gotten around to
putting in a Rajun Cajun, but that's where I'm headed.
***********
We will review your music for you! Totally FREE:
http://reviewmymusicnow.com/
jtees4
What's important is not how "technically" clean the amp is...it is how
much someone LIKES the clean sound.
Squier
as mentioned by others - that's just one way to get to the sound you want.
A lot of people use Fender Twin just for that very reason.
You get lots of clean Fender headroom (and Twins have really nice sounding
cleans) and then you can pedal up a Twin and it takes to most pedals like
a fish in water. The nice thing is that with all that clean headroom
once you get a sound you like with pedal(s) then that sound will be
rather consistent from lower volumes to really loud volumes.
Tube overdrive is not really achieved in a Twin until everyone goes deaf
or you are playing in an outdoor arena. (even then you'd probably have
it mic'd up).
The thing about getting your sound with tube overdrive as the main ingredient
is that you have a window of volume you have to get to in order to achieve
that tube overdrive sound. So unless you are consistently playing in the
same size clubs or venues then you might need various tube amps with various
wattages. That 15 watt tube amp might be great for cranked up tube
overdrive sounds in a small club but it won't cut it for louder rock in
a larger club. Thus you'll need that 40 watt club amp... etc and etc.
Using something like a Twin lets you play most anywhere if you are
using pedals to get your sound. Of course playing really small places
isn't all that good since you at least have to get the Twin power tubes
beyond idle. For a smaller club you could certainly use a lower wattage
amp perhaps 35 - 40 watts and have the cleans you need to run the pedals.
Or... you can always sort of have it both ways...
The older Mesa/Boogie Mark II's and III's have great cleans (a little
bit of grit compared to Fender cleans but very nice) and you can just
use the clean channel. Just because there are other channel(s) to switch
to doesn't mean you have to use them. And then if you want to switch to
the lead channel (Mark II) or Rhythm2 or lead channel (Mark III) then
you have that option. There are a few multi-channel amps out there with
nice sounding cleans and more than enough head room and if or when you
might need the lead channel then you have that too.
I have a Mesa Mark III and play on the clean channel all the time.
I just keep the preamp gain down lower and turn up the power (master volume).
Big cleans that keep the tones consistent all the way up the volume level
until it gets WAY loud and by that time we'll be thrown out of the club anyway.
So yeah... I can also use the preamp gain offered by the Mark III for
gained up sounds and the R2 and Lead channels but personally I like the
slightly gritty cleans with the preamp gain down and the master turned up.
If you want one of the ultimate all time big cleans with lots of headroom
then you can hardly do better than getting yourself a Silverface Fender Twin.
These run around the same price as the current PCB "Reissue" Twins but
are still hand wired amps from the 70's and 80's and if well taken care
with minimal maintenance will last several lifetimes and more.
No need to pay the outrageous prices for blackface twins (imho).
ok well that's my 2 cents.
Squier
just FYI - I have a Deluxe Reverb (silverface) and it doesn't
really have a lot of clean headroom. Once you get the volume
towards 5 (half way) it starts to go into this excellent tube saturation
which definitely affects the tonality of the amp. In fact that's a plus
because you can get the overdriven tubes at somewhat moderate volumes.
If you are just going to play at home it will have enough clean headroom
for home playing and home studio..etc. But for playing out and keeping
up with a live drummer you will invariably drive the Deluxe Reverb into
tube saturation which can be a very cool thing. The Fender Princeton
has even less watts and can be driven into tube saturation even quicker
giving great results. For more clean headroom and not at Fender Twin
levels, try out a Fender Vibrolux instead of a Deluxe Reverb.
The tones of these amps are different but you'll know you are playing
a Fender amp. The Vibrolux uses 6L6 power tubes rather than 6V6 and
has more watts and the 6L6 keeps it open and cleaner (at least the
silverface and blackface ones). Not sure about the new 'reissue' Vibrolux.
Anyways, I would suggest comparing the current Deluxe Reverb with
the current Vibrolux (which is a step up in wattage from the Deluxe Reverb).
And personally I would forget about the "Hot Rod" Deluxe. Unless you somehow
actually like the sound of these raspy fizzy things.
Rick N. Backer
courageously avow:
>> RobMac <lutep...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> >>> It is sad you can't afford the Lone Star Special.<<<
>>
>> Thanks, Rick. I think it is sad too :-(
>>
>> The Express 5:25 has some similar qualities, but there is a definite
>> noise issue, mentioned by many reviewers and noticed by myself, which
>> the Lone Star does not have. Mesas are hugely expensive in the UK.
>>
>> Taking a trip to the guitar store on Wednesday morning. I'll try the
>> Fender Deluxe Reverb as well as the Engl - a German make, maybe not so
>> familiar to USA guitarists, but well-respected in Europe.
>>
>> Rob
>
>
>just FYI - I have a Deluxe Reverb (silverface) and it doesn't
>really have a lot of clean headroom. Once you get the volume
>towards 5 (half way) it starts to go into this excellent tube saturation
>which definitely affects the tonality of the amp. In fact that's a plus
>because you can get the overdriven tubes at somewhat moderate volumes.
>If you are just going to play at home it will have enough clean headroom
>for home playing and home studio..etc. But for playing out and keeping
>up with a live drummer you will invariably drive the Deluxe Reverb into
>tube saturation which can be a very cool thing. The Fender Princeton
>has even less watts and can be driven into tube saturation even quicker
>giving great results.
An acquaintance recently acquired one of those rare garage finds of a
four knob blackface Princeton (non-reverb). It sparked and blew the
rectifier tube when first fired up but replacement of said rectifier
and the leaky cap that lead to it all solved that problem. It has had
the speaker upgraded to a 12 in" Jensen. The thing sounds awesome and
is very responsive to a player's attack. The original grill is there
but torn in places and tears in the tolex have been covered up with
black enamel. Not a collector's item by any stretch, which is probably
a good thing 'cause I get to play it occasionally this way.
Personally, I have a Victoria 5112 that is a Champ clone driving a 12"
Jensen. No headroom to speak of but a loud 5 watts. :))
RobMac
impressed with all of them except the Hot Rods. However, the amp I
walked home with might come as a surprise - the Cornell Romany. A very
loud 10 watts which attenuates to 2 or 0.25 for home use. It is loud
enough in a trio with bass and drums, and even with organ added. Now,
10 watts might not sound much, and one would expect it to break up too
soon for my liking, but the clean is so beautiful, the breakup is
gorgeous. My wife, who hates all ampliiers, remarked how smooth it
sounded (and how the colours complement the living room carpet!). It
has a particular sound which will certainly not suit everyone, but it
suits me. Everyone in the band is knocked out with it. Cornell's
website is worth a look: http://www.dc-developments.com/
Rob
Alexander Dorian
the time of Jimi Hendrix. I've been eyeing the Matchless Chieftain
lately - it has great cleans and crunch, it would be very easy to
"sing" with the right overdrive in front and it cleans very well when
you lower the volume.