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Fed up with OVERPRICED guitars!

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And

unread,
Dec 1, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/1/95
to

I'm fed up with overpriced guitars!

Technology has made them A LOT cheaper to produce today than they have ever
been to make.
If guitars were resonably priced according the cost of their development in
the same way computer have, they should only cost $200 each, cases $50, amps
much cheaper.

The markup on new guitars is offensive and digusting. The only affordable
guitars are cheap junk that lose 2/3 of their value the second you walk out
out of the store with them. They suck so bad, that when beginning guitar
players try to learn on them, they become frustrated and their sound is not
pleasing and does not sound like their idols who inspired them to play guitar
in the first place.

Many guitars are sold at outrageous list prices, then discounted to
still outrageous overpriced prices. They cost the stores less than half of
what they're selling it for minus 5%. This markup percentagewise is higher
that of a Mercedes Benz or Ferrari. Prices are made according to "perceived
image value" and not cost of manufacturer, development, labor, transportation,
and reasonable profit. It's price gouging pure and simple.

And many kids get frustrated that their cheap guitars sound bad, go out of
tune constantly, and feel "cheap" and give it up. This is stark contrast to
the 50's when even mail order catalog guitars were made in the USA and made
with quality that lasts.

I hope something changes the guitar market. USA guitars are like Harley
Davidson motorcycles, sold on image at outrageously overpriced prices to
only to very wealthy people who do not ride them, just bought for display
and investment value, real estate.

I'm just really fed up with these prices. Maybe something will happen in
the music biz where guitar bands are "out" again, like in the late 70's disco
era when guitars actually starting becomming realistically priced, new and
used, as instruments to be played by real people, not just vintage collectors.

I would have liked to have bought a new guitar this year, but the markup
and overpriced stigma attatched to it makes me feel like I've just got
punched in the stomach (like the last time I bought a new guitar.)

I hope some execs in a few instrument companies read this. If you keep
overpricing your guitars, maybe the "kids" won't be comming back anymore
and they'll find other places to express themselves musicially.

Andrew


Todd L. McCagg

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Dec 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/2/95
to asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu
>I'm fed up with overpriced guitars!

Dear Andrew:

What guitar(s) do you own?

>Technology has made them A LOT cheaper to produce today than they have ever>been to make. If guitars were resonably priced accordin=


g the cost of their development in >the same way computer have, they should only cost $200 each, cases $50, amps>much cheaper.

Technology has made computers "cheaper" to produce. Computer boards are
completely machine made. The circuits are no longer "stuffed" (like most
antiquated methods used in amps to this day), they utilize SMT (Surface
Mount Technology) that cuts the time of manufacturer by 1/50th (cost
too)! To really understand this pricing thing, you need to understand
the concept of "economies of scale". Take the demand of the market for
computers and keep this number in your head. Now, divide that demand by
100,000 and that is the difference between those two industries.
Computers are used by small, medium, large, retail, wholesale,
manufacturing, technology, Pizza Hut, privately held, publicly owned,
companies and corporations, education, research, musicians, and even
drummers. Guitars are purchased by guitarists... That's It! A Honda
Civic cost under $2,000 in 1975. Now, 20 years later, they cost over
$15,000! A full sized Chevy van was $3,000 in 1973 and are now over
$20,000 for a comparable model. Why then should guitars have come DOWN
in price?? If you use these numbers (which just happen to match market
researchers numbers), you multiply the cost of something made twenty
years ago by a factor of 7 to figure that product's current market
value. So, my 1965 3 tone Jazz bass that I paid $235 for would sell for
$1,645 today!!

>The markup on new guitars is offensive and digusting. The only affordable>guitars are cheap junk that lose 2/3 of their value the =
second you walk out>out of the store with them. They suck so bad, that when beginning guitar>players try to learn on them, they bec=
ome frustrated and their sound is not>pleasing and does not sound like their idols who inspired them to play guitar>in the first pla=
ce.

When a consumer walks into Macy's (Marshall Field or whatever) and a
coat is marked $100, people usually pay $100. If you go the supermarket
and hamburger is $3.00 a lb., you pay $3.00 a lb.. Why then, do you walk
into a music store and see a guitar for $400 and expect to pay $200. I
have been a player since 1965 (professionally, not garage, thank you),
in retail (guitar-bass-drums-electronics) for 14 years, and as a
manufacturer's rep for the last 10. I also have many friends in the
wholesale and retail of many other products; cameras, fly fishing,
video, bicycles, cars, computers, gourmet foods, and consumer
electronics (stereo). The ACTUAL net profit margin based on cost of
goods, advertising, operations, personnel, and real estate is for all of
these businesses is essentially the same. If it weren't one or all of
these business would not be in business. The varying degrees of success
of these business people appears to me to be in direct proportion to
their hard work, dedication, and God given talent. What I can tell you
is that there are very few music store owners and musical manufacturers
driving 700 class BMW's.

GOOD quality instruments do NOT lose 2/3 of their value when you walk
out of a store. Anyone buying a guitar based upon who plays what (or
gullible enough to believe that Mr. Hero actually paid for it and that
is a standard production model), is very naive to say the least. There
are many inexpensive instruments that are affordable that are not pieces
of junk. While it is true that they don't hold their value like a
Picasso, they offer decent (some excellent) play-ability at a very nice
price. Try Fernandes, Washburn, Aria Pro II, or Samick (they make ALOT
of guitars that do NOT carry their brand name).

>Many guitars are sold at outrageous list prices, then discounted to >still outrageous overpriced prices. They cost the stores less=
than half of>what they're selling it for minus 5%. This markup percentagewise is higher >that of a Mercedes Benz or Ferrari. Pri=
ces are made according to "perceived>image value" and not cost of manufacturer, development, labor, transportation,>and reasonable p=
rofit. It's price gouging pure and simple. This is 1995 and I assure you, NO ONE pays list! Yes the markup is more than a Mercedes =
or a Ferrari but keep in mind that guitars don't sell for over $50,000 either. The most expensive guitars that I know of (solid bod=
y electric's anyway) are made by my fishing buddy and luthier supreme Paul Reed Smith (PRS) and are $13,000 and actually GO UP in va=
lue after you buy them! AH-HAH! Now you and I are seeing eye to eye on something: Prices on some instruments are sold according to "=
perceived image value". Any one who buys one of these guitars, is gouging himself. To quote a famous seller of products: "Those that=
usually have it done to them usually do it to themselves!" If you are interested I can happily e-mail to you a copy of an article I=
wrote on how to buy a guitar. I think you would be surprised at what I have to say.

>And many kids get frustrated that their cheap guitars sound bad, go out of>tune constantly, and feel "cheap" and give it up. This =


is stark contrast to>the 50's when even mail order catalog guitars were made in the USA and made>with quality that lasts.

I can't vouch for the 50's, but cheap catalog guitars (I assume you
speak of Harmony/Sears Sears/Dan Electro type guitars) in the early to
mid 60's were pretty crud ridden too! They sounded bad, went out of tune
constantly, felt cheap and tyros usually quit when their finger bled.

>I hope something changes the guitar market. USA guitars are like Harley>Davidson motorcycles, sold on image at outrageously overpri=


ced prices to>only to very wealthy people who do not ride them, just bought for display>and investment value, real estate.

Something has! The greatest examples would be the PRS bolt-on's, G&L and
the new Hamer lower end guitars made in the U.S.A.. U.S.A. guitars are
like Harley's! The are expensive and are sold on image but ARE worth
what you pay for them (in return on investment alone!) These are
handmade products built by Americans!! Not mass produced "rice rockets".
Don't get me wrong, Honda and the likes make great riding bikes but in
terms of value, precious few have gone up in value like an old Indian.
While I am not warm, up close, and personal with bikers, per se, I do
know that the ones I see riding their Harley's are riding their
Harley's. You get my point, they aren't riding around on a Schwinn and
leaving their Harley at home?

>I'm just really fed up with these prices. Maybe something will happen in>the music biz where guitar bands are "out" again, like in =
the late 70's disco>era when guitars actually starting becomming realistically priced, new and>used, as instruments to be played by =


real people, not just vintage collectors.

Not that there is anything wrong with youth but I get the feeling you
are not as old as I am (I am 43 years young). Disco didn't bring guitar
prices down. I mean that wasn't the point. Disco KILLED THE INDUSTRY!!!
(Really hurt music too!-This a topic for another epistle.) Many
manufacturers and dealers went belly up to due lack of interest. Prices
dropped dramatically not because people were being nice but because they
were being sucked dry by a disease called disco!

>I would have liked to have bought a new guitar this year, but the markup>and overpriced stigma attached to it makes me feel like I'=


ve just got>punched in the stomach (like the last time I bought a new guitar.)

Hey, did you ever think about a used guitar?

>I hope some execs in a few instrument companies read this. If you keep>overpricing your guitars, maybe the "kids" won't be comming =


back anymore>and they'll find other places to express themselves musicially.

>AndrewI will forward your letter to NAMM (the National Association of Music Merchants) at the trade show in January. I will also se=
nd a copy to all of the individual companies with whom I am involved or friendly. If you do find something to express yourself music=
ally that provides the same satisfaction as a guitar, please let me know. I want to be there too!

Sincerely,
Todd McCagg


SEFSTRAT

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Dec 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/2/95
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<<Damn straight, I say! Unfortunately, all the yuppies going into their
mid-life-ohmygod-I'm-fucking-40's have the money to plunk down on these
little toys, so I don't see prices coming down anytime too soon.>>

IMHO, it is a lot easier to justify the purchase of high-end gear if you
are earning it back by using that gear. Although I may fit your rather
pejorative description of some buyers, I evaluate what I buy based not
upon what I can necessarily afford generally, but based upon what I earn
with it, playing with my group. It's sort of like a side hobby that pays
for itself.

Of course, if you are not playing out, or play in a lousy-paying market,
your mileage may vary.

Steve
SEFS...@AOL.com

M. Ivaliotes

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Dec 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/2/95
to
I own three Mexican-made Fenders (a Standard Strat, Starndard Tele, and
Standard P-Bass). These guitars were cheap. But I love them all. Sure,
if I was going to play classical, high-end-jazz, or Satriani-esque Bach-and-
roll, these guitars would probably show their limitations. But I play a
little blues, a little rock, and a little folksy-rock, and the trio all
perform admirably.

Guitars aren't overpriced. By economic definition, nothing that sells well
is overpriced. People simply pay for what they want. Collectors often want
something signed by a guitar hero, or something over 30 years old. Pro blues
players want something that is 30 years old or *sounds* 30 years old. Other
people might want super-precise machines, high-tech guitars capable of cool
new sounds (like the Fly), and whatnot. But you do *not* need any of these
to make rock'n'roll. Not by a longshot.

What it gets right down to is what you want to play. If you *really* want
to sound just like 'Eddie' or 'Eric' or 'Jimi' or 'Yngwie' or 'Stevie,' it's
gonna cost you. If you just wanna sound like you, then walk into a guitar
store, check your prejudices at the door, and play everything you can get your
hands on. Try new, used, pretty, ugly, and odd. When you find what you want,
buy it. If the one that sings to you costs $2000, that's a bummer. Get the
best 'singer' you can afford, and go from there.

One nice reason to buy a cheaper or used guitar is customization. I bought
my Mexis partially because I liked the sounds they make, and partially
because I knew I was going to customize them. It made no sense to me to
spend $600-$1100 on a guitar I was going to rip the pickups out of, change the
bridge on, etc. But it also was financially restrictive for me to order some
Custom Shop special. More importantly, my 'cheapos' will evolve with me,
allowing me the fredom from deciding everything I want in the guitar store at
one moment. I'm love my guitars, and I'm gonna love my little FrankenFenders
even more when I'm done messing with them. So they're not made of alder or
ash. I'll cope.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Matthew Ivaliotes | lo...@uiuc.edu
College and Department | lo...@joker.aiss.uiuc.edu
Business Services
----------------| Office of Administrative |----------------
| Information Systems and Services |
| University of Illinois |
---------------------------------------------
All standard disclaimers, and even a few nonstandard ones, apply.

David Sippel

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Dec 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/2/95
to
In article <49nqs5$t...@nuke.csu.net>, asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu (And) wrote:

>
> I'm fed up with overpriced guitars!
>

> Technology has made them A LOT cheaper to produce today than they have ever
> been to make.

> If guitars were resonably priced according the cost of their development in

> the same way computer have, they should only cost $200 each, cases $50, amps
> much cheaper.
>

> The markup on new guitars is offensive and digusting. The only affordable

> guitars are cheap junk that lose 2/3 of their value the second you walk out


> out of the store with them. They suck so bad, that when beginning guitar

> players try to learn on them, they become frustrated and their sound is not


> pleasing and does not sound like their idols who inspired them to play guitar

> in the first place.


>
> Many guitars are sold at outrageous list prices, then discounted to

> still outrageous overpriced prices. They cost the stores less than half of


> what they're selling it for minus 5%. This markup percentagewise is higher

> that of a Mercedes Benz or Ferrari. Prices are made according to "perceived


> image value" and not cost of manufacturer, development, labor, transportation,

> and reasonable profit. It's price gouging pure and simple.


>
> And many kids get frustrated that their cheap guitars sound bad, go out of

> tune constantly, and feel "cheap" and give it up. This is stark contrast to


> the 50's when even mail order catalog guitars were made in the USA and made
> with quality that lasts.
>

> I hope something changes the guitar market. USA guitars are like Harley

> Davidson motorcycles, sold on image at outrageously overpriced prices to


> only to very wealthy people who do not ride them, just bought for display
> and investment value, real estate.
>

> I'm just really fed up with these prices. Maybe something will happen in

> the music biz where guitar bands are "out" again, like in the late 70's disco


> era when guitars actually starting becomming realistically priced, new and

> used, as instruments to be played by real people, not just vintage collectors.


>
> I would have liked to have bought a new guitar this year, but the markup

> and overpriced stigma attatched to it makes me feel like I've just got


> punched in the stomach (like the last time I bought a new guitar.)
>

> I hope some execs in a few instrument companies read this. If you keep

> overpricing your guitars, maybe the "kids" won't be comming back anymore


> and they'll find other places to express themselves musicially.
>
> Andrew

Andrew -

Have you considered Seagull or Taylor? Taylors are pretty expensive, but
not compared to Martin and other American guitars. They're a good value.
Seagull, a Canadian-made instrument, is an exceptionally good value for
the money.

By the way, American guitars (which generally sound better to my ears
than, say, Japanese instruments) sell for about the same amount as
equivalent Japanese models. I don't think any of them are overpriced;
it's just that one has to pay a lot for any well-made, good-sounding
instrument whether it's a guitar, violin, horn or any other instrument.
In fact, compared with other instruments, guitars - even high-priced ones
- are a bargain.

Good instruments cost money, no matter where they're made or who makes them.

David Sippel

RussSwanson

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Dec 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/2/95
to asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu
The simple truth is...

When a retail store buys a guitar for $250 and sells it for $500 it does
not result in a $250 net profit for the store.

The store has to pay for operating expenses like rent, payroll,
insurance, utilities, advertising, etc. Most retail stores net profits
are around 5-10% (if lucky).

The prices are dictated by supply and demand. If no one want one the
price will fall, if everyone wants one the price will rise.


M. Oakey

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Dec 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/2/95
to asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu
Damn straight, I say! Unfortunately, all the yuppies going into their
mid-life-ohmygod-I'm-fucking-40's have the money to plunk down on these
little toys, so I don't see prices coming down anytime too soon.
Meanwhile, clubs haven't raised payscales in the last decade (or so it
seems). So here I sit with my Korean and Jap guitars. (btw, they play
and sound just fine). Maybe if we DO all bitch about it enough something
might happen.... but I won't hold my breath.

Anyway, you said it just fine!

Marti


Message has been deleted

Craig Wiper

unread,
Dec 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/2/95
to
"M. Oakey" <oak...@starnetinc.com> wrote:

>Damn straight, I say! Unfortunately, all the yuppies going into their
>mid-life-ohmygod-I'm-fucking-40's have the money to plunk down on these
>little toys, so I don't see prices coming down anytime too soon.
>Meanwhile, clubs haven't raised payscales in the last decade

Decade? Try quarter-century! (Craig Wiper)

Duffy Pratt

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Dec 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/2/95
to
In article <49ojji$b...@news.ais.net>, "M. Oakey" <oak...@starnetinc.com> wrote:

> Damn straight, I say! Unfortunately, all the yuppies going into their
> mid-life-ohmygod-I'm-fucking-40's have the money to plunk down on these
> little toys, so I don't see prices coming down anytime too soon.

> Meanwhile, clubs haven't raised payscales in the last decade (or so it

> seems). So here I sit with my Korean and Jap guitars. (btw, they play
> and sound just fine). Maybe if we DO all bitch about it enough something
> might happen.... but I won't hold my breath.
>
> Anyway, you said it just fine!
>
> Marti

My brother bought a new Martin D-35 in 1975 for about $600. Taking
inflation into account, that's about $1800 dollars today. I know you can
get a comprable guitar cheaper now. Is there competition in the industry
-- Martin, Taylor, Gibson, Guild, etc. I think so. Is a $100% mark-up
unusual for a retail business. Its standard for clothes, household items
and lots of other things. I worked in a store that marked some things up
200%. We also had loss leaders.

It doesn't take very much money to start a guitar store. If you are
right, and the prices are too high, why wouldn't someone in your area
start to sell cheaper and make a killing on volume?

I agree that a fine new guitar is expensive. But prices have not been
going up inordinantly. Also, check out the prices on a fine mandolin --
or a violin. Guitars are cheap.

Regards

Duffy Pratt

Andrew Douglas

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Dec 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/2/95
to
In article <49nqs5$t...@nuke.csu.net>,
asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu (And) wrote:

>
> I'm fed up with overpriced guitars!

(snip snip snip>

> I would have liked to have bought a new guitar this year, but the markup
>and overpriced stigma attatched to it makes me feel like I've just got
>punched in the stomach (like the last time I bought a new guitar.)
>


Why not do what I did?

I bought a used, mint condition guitar. It's a Steinberger bass (the "real"
one) which is an incredible, world-class instrument. I'm going to keep it
as long as I continue to play bass. The cost was two-thirds of the new
"street" price, and it's in BRAND NEW condition.

I agree that a lot of this stuff is overpriced, but there is a solution:
Don't buy it. There are alternatives.

Andrew Douglas, Belvoir Publications, Greenwich, CT USA
===================
A hole without a donut is nothing.

A donut without a hole is a danish.

Jerry Dallal

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Dec 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/2/95
to
M. Oakey (oak...@starnetinc.com) wrote:
: Damn straight, I say! Unfortunately, all the yuppies going into their
: mid-life-ohmygod-I'm-[snip]-40's have the money to plunk down on these

: little toys, so I don't see prices coming down anytime too soon.

The problem may be more with collectors than with people who
are actually playing their instruments. If it's midlife crises that get
people to actually do some playing, then . . . hooray for mid-life crises!

Also, the problem will be with older instruments, not newer ones.
Economies of scale suggest that a strong market coupled with many
suppliers (and has there ever been as many high-volume quality suppliers
as there are at this moment? Martin/Collings/Taylor/Louden/Larrive/Fylde/
Heritage/Gibson/Guild/. . .) will keep costs down.

Alec Horgan

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Dec 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/2/95
to
In article <49qq0h$j...@ralph.vnet.net>, ch...@vnet.net (Charles Held) wrote:


> When the '59 Les Paul came out, government at all levels accounted for 15% of
> GDP. It is now 47%. You figure out why shit is so damned expensive.

Because some people happen to be so good at slinging it.


Alec

StringSing

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Dec 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/2/95
to
writes:

> I'm fed up with overpriced guitars!

There are some over-priced guitars out there, usually because of hype or
fad, but most guitars are vastly UNDER-PRICED. Compare guitar prices to
violin or any other instrument prices. Guitars, which are relatively
complicated to build, cost less. Try finding a hand-made professional
quality violin for $2000. More likely a serious intermediate quality one
will cost you $10,000. My daughter plays harp. We purchased a beginners
level lever harp (Lyon & Healy Folk Harp) for $1250! That is more than I
have *ever* spent on a guitar and I own a Lowden L25C and a guitar built
by an individual luthier (Tony Graziano). When she moves up to a better
instrument we will be looking at about $4000 for a lever harp and more if
she ever moves to a pedal harp. If you look at that price range in
guitars, it includes just about everything.

When I play gitars built by individual luthiers the prices give me pause
until I think it through. Think about it. If a builder makes 30 guitars
a year and sells them for $3000 each, that only adds up to $90,000. Out
of that has to come materials, shop costs, administrative costs, and
finally, if there is anything left, some income. Many builders sell for
considerably less than that. It is not an outrageous income. An
aquantance of mine recently told me that he was talking with David Webber,
who builds fine guitars for under $2000, and joked that Webber's spouse
must be a doctor. The story goes that Webber replied, "How did you know?"
David Webber isn't loosing money on his guitars, but he isn't getting
rich either and possibly wouldn't even be making a living wage if it
weren't for his spouse's income (whether or not the story is accurate).

Over-priced guitars? Perhaps there are. See the Eric Clapton model
Martin or the Collings OM that was talked about here. Still, on a value
vs. cost scale, you can't beat a good acoustic guitar.

Roy

GmagicB

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Dec 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/2/95
to
>>>Unfortunately, all the yuppies going into their
mid-life-ohmygod-I'm-fucking-40's have the money to plunk down on these
little toys<<<

What a pathetic line of snivelling, crybaby, bullshit. I don't know about
anybody else, but I worked my butt off to be able to afford the guitars
I've got, and maybe it took me into my 40's before I had enough jack to be
able to afford them. But I made it, and I've spent it on some great
guitars, and that's got abso-fuckin'-lutely nothing to do with your
problems.

Magidc.

EDWARDSON Ryan Lawrence

unread,
Dec 2, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/2/95
to
Some people have no idea that there is a thing called
Inflation... and that decent guitars are not stamped out like computer
chips, but actually require individual craftsmanship,,, and that is why
guitars can vary so much in a single production run...

Bitching about the prices is like bitching that a Porsche costs
more than a Toyota... you get what you pay for... and it is also supply
and demand...

Don't try to find scape goats in those who can actually afford
the prices... if some one works hard enough and save's the money, than
it's their damn right to buy the guitar...

And as for "overpriced", why don't you try making your own
guitar, and see how much it costs and what it's resale value is.... Try
To Remeber, Something Is Only Worth What Some One Is Willing To Pay For It!!!
And Apparently, the guitars are worth it...

If you are fed up, may i humbly suggest you learn to play the
Kazoo or slide whistle... i hear that they are pretty cheap, and can
often be found in your favorite box of Corn Flakes or Shreddies.

Take care everybody, Ryan.


--
--
Ryan Edwardson . University Of Toronto . II Year Sociology & History Major
Unknown Legend of Guitar Playing . (e01k...@credit.erin.utoronto.ca)

Big Boss

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Dec 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/3/95
to
Right on Brother!!!!!

Thomas F Brown

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Dec 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/3/95
to
In article <Pine.SUN.3.91.951203...@Ra.MsState.Edu> Big Boss <hi...@Ra.MsState.Edu> writes:

>Right on Brother!!!!!

Yeah. Power to the people! Fight big brother! Down with The Man!
Hell no we won't go!


Thomas F Brown

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Dec 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/3/95
to
>In article <49qq0h$j...@ralph.vnet.net>, ch...@vnet.net (Charles Held) wrote:
>
>
> When the '59 Les Paul came out, government at all levels accounted for 15% of
> GDP. It is now 47%. You figure out why shit is so damned expensive.

Uh, inflation? Oh no...wait! It's Evil Government Bureaucrats.
I knew that. Excuse me, I gotta go bomb a preschool now...


Dave Cigna

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Dec 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/3/95
to
In article <49qq0h$j...@ralph.vnet.net>, Charles Held <ch...@vnet.net> wrote:
>When the '59 Les Paul came out, government at all levels accounted for 15% of
>GDP. It is now 47%. You figure out why shit is so damned expensive.

In 1959 a Les Paul Standard cost $265. Let's see, at 6% inflation per year
it would cost $2160 in 1995. Hmm.... What do they cost today?

-- Dave Cigna

Dale Marsh

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Dec 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/3/95
to
In article <49nqs5$t...@nuke.csu.net>
asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu (And) writes:

>The only affordable
>guitars are cheap junk that lose 2/3 of their value the second you walk out
>out of the store with them. They suck so bad, that when beginning guitar
>players try to learn on them, they become frustrated and their sound is not
>pleasing and does not sound like their idols who inspired them to play >guitar
>in the first place.

I will have to disagree. Twenty years ago beginner electric guitars had
sheet metal straight-across bridges. Strings that did not line up
stright with the fingerboard. Pickups that were so microphonic you
could talk into them like a microphone. Nuts way too high. Beginning
guitarists back then would become frustrated not because they did not
get a good sound, they would become frustrated because the guitars were
practically unplayable past the third fret.

A Korean or Mexican Strat is such a better beginner guitar than those
available 20 years ago. Beginners these days are very fortunate. I
believe it was the poor quality of inexpensive guitars that make Gibson
and Fender so popular. Because in those days if you did not have a
Fender or a Gibson your guitar usually sucked. Nowdays even the
cheapest guitars are very playable.

Dale H. Marsh

Craig C. Brandau

unread,
Dec 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/3/95
to
I believe that we are currently living in a "buyers' market" for handmade instruments. Though
vintange instrument prices have skyrocketed due to the infulx of collectors (may of who don't even
play), one can purchase a quality guitar for around $2,000. As for myself, in 1991 I had Eric Sahlin,
a then realtively unkown guitar maker, construct a Brazillian-rosewood spruce-toped classical which
he charged me $2,000. I must admit that I had to sell a lot of stuff to get it, but the guitar has now
doubled in price. So if one is looking to buy a good instrument, I suggest looking at one of the
numerous young makers and stay away from the vintage selection. Just my two cents.....

Craig

Charles Held

unread,
Dec 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/3/95
to
In article <49roe4$i...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu>,
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) wrote:

>>In article <49qq0h$j...@ralph.vnet.net>, ch...@vnet.net (Charles Held) wrote:
>>
>> When the '59 Les Paul came out, government at all levels accounted for 15%
of
>> GDP. It is now 47%. You figure out why shit is so damned expensive.
>
>Uh, inflation? Oh no...wait! It's Evil Government Bureaucrats.
>I knew that. Excuse me, I gotta go bomb a preschool now...

Were you to spend a little less time thinking up meaningless sarcastic
comebacks and a little more time learning basic economics (you ARE posting
from an .edu domain, remember?), you would know that inflation is the result of
too much money chasing too few goods. Where does that money come from? The
government printing press is the only correct answer. Why does the government
print too much money? So they can (a) collect more of it back in taxes through
'bracket creep', and (b) make it look like the national debt is less than it
really is, by converting deficits incurred at yesterday's dollar value into
debt at today's lower dollar value.

Very simple, if you think about it. But you don't appear to give a damn about
the 15% vs. 47% GDP figures, so I doubt that you can understand inflation
either.

Oh, and most preschools are privately owned, so please redirect your anger.

Charles Held

unread,
Dec 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/3/95
to
In article <DIzu9...@boss.cs.ohiou.edu>,
ci...@plato.phy.OhioU.Edu (Dave Cigna) wrote:

>In article <49qq0h$j...@ralph.vnet.net>, Charles Held <ch...@vnet.net> wrote:
>>When the '59 Les Paul came out, government at all levels accounted for 15% of
>>GDP. It is now 47%. You figure out why shit is so damned expensive.
>
>In 1959 a Les Paul Standard cost $265. Let's see, at 6% inflation per year
>it would cost $2160 in 1995. Hmm.... What do they cost today?

If your econ profs are telling you that inflation has been a constant 6% for
the last 30 years, you are a poster child for the elimination of government-run
educational institutions.

Craigbrndo

unread,
Dec 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/3/95
to
>>>Unfortunately, all the yuppies going into their
mid-life-ohmygod-I'm-fucking-40's have the money to plunk down on these
little toys<<<

That's Mister "Mid-life-oh-my-god(at least spell it
right)-I'm-fucking-40's" to you! So what comes after "Generation X?"
Generation Y?

Craig

Craig


Unknown

unread,
Dec 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/3/95
to
asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu (And) wrote:

>
> I'm fed up with overpriced guitars!
>

> Technology has made them A LOT cheaper to produce today than they have ever
>been to make.
> If guitars were resonably priced according the cost of their development in
>the same way computer have, they should only cost $200 each, cases $50, amps
>much cheaper.
>

Hey dude , shut up!!! If you think that instruments and amps made in
USA are expensive in the states, come to Europe ...You will be able to
buy a Lespaul Standard for 2000$, a Mesa MkIV for 4000$ and a Chevy
Corvette for 50000$ !!!! Nice place isnt'it???

Charles Held

unread,
Dec 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/3/95
to
In article <dpratt-0212...@dpratt.icsi.net>,

dpr...@icsi.net (Duffy Pratt) wrote:
>It doesn't take very much money to start a guitar store. If you are
>right, and the prices are too high, why wouldn't someone in your area
>start to sell cheaper and make a killing on volume?

The earlier a store was started, the less they had to deal with governmental
regulation bullshit. To say 'it doesn't take very much money' to start any
kind of business these days is irresponsibly naive. Zoning changes, business
permits, tax forms, handicapped access, OHSA reg's, EPA reg's, EEOC reg's,
worker's comp, unemployment insurance, payroll taxes, and on and on and on.
And then, if you do manage to eke out a profit, look out for that lovely 15.3%
self employment tax and then corporate taxation in the 35% range (mind you, all
this shit is FEDERAL ONLY - add on your state and local socialism as well).

Jerry Dallal

unread,
Dec 3, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/3/95
to
Craigbrndo (craig...@aol.com) wrote:
: So what comes after "Generation X?"
: Generation Y?

The Millenium generation, who probably will not be faced with
the same lack of choices faced by generation X, the first generation
whose parents took pills not to have, and tended to be viewed more as a
nuisance by society than a legacy. History suggests that generations
such as the X-ers do all right for themselves and look out for those who
follow, if only because they don't want them to share the same hardships.

John Moone

unread,
Dec 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/4/95
to
It is very interesting to read Americans complaining about the high
price of guitars, here in the UK we pay in Engish Pounds what you pay in
Dollars, which, depending on the rate of exchange, adds another third
onto the price, but american guitars ARE the best, and if looked after
will last a lifetime, so if you buy a guitar for $2000 and play it for
ten years, that's $200 a year, and at the end of those ten years you
decide to move up/move on the chances are you'll show a profit. I can't
think of many things you can buy that will be so rewarding to play and
appreciate at the same time.
Why an american would even consider buying a Japanese guitar is beyond
me, but I suppose that's another thread.
Cheers!
Mooney

Dave Cigna

unread,
Dec 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/4/95
to
In article <49t8ue$1...@ralph.vnet.net>, Charles Held <ch...@vnet.net> wrote:
>In article <DIzu9...@boss.cs.ohiou.edu>,
> ci...@plato.phy.OhioU.Edu (Dave Cigna) wrote:
>>In article <49qq0h$j...@ralph.vnet.net>, Charles Held <ch...@vnet.net> wrote:
>>>When the '59 Les Paul came out, government at all levels accounted for 15% of
>>>GDP. It is now 47%. You figure out why shit is so damned expensive.
>>
>>In 1959 a Les Paul Standard cost $265. Let's see, at 6% inflation per year
>>it would cost $2160 in 1995. Hmm.... What do they cost today?
>
>If your econ profs are telling you that inflation has been a constant 6% for
>the last 30 years, you are a poster child for the elimination of government-run
>educational institutions.

The 6% was taken as a ball-park figure to make a point. Feel free to perform
the calculation again with more precise figures. I expect the results to
be close enough.

The point (for anyone to dense to see it) is that there is available today a
larger spectrum of good quality, reasonably guitars than ever before.
Anyone that believes that good guitars were ever more affordable they are
today is wrong, plain and simple.

-- Dave Cigna
Purveyor of publicly supported education.

charles tauber

unread,
Dec 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/4/95
to
asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu (And) wrote:
>
>
> I'm fed up with overpriced guitars!
>
> Technology has made them A LOT cheaper to produce today than they have ever
> been to make.
> If guitars were resonably priced according the cost of their development in
> the same way computer have, they should only cost $200 each, cases $50, amps
> much cheaper.
>
> Many guitars are sold at outrageous list prices, then discounted to
> still outrageous overpriced prices. They cost the stores less than half of
> what they're selling it for minus 5%. This markup percentagewise is higher
> that of a Mercedes Benz or Ferrari. Prices are made according to "perceived
> image value" and not cost of manufacturer, development, labor, transportation,
> and reasonable profit. It's price gouging pure and simple.
>
> And many kids get frustrated that their cheap guitars sound bad, go out of
> tune constantly, and feel "cheap" and give it up. This is stark contrast to
> the 50's when even mail order catalog guitars were made in the USA and made
> with quality that lasts.

>
> I would have liked to have bought a new guitar this year, but the markup
> and overpriced stigma attatched to it makes me feel like I've just got
> punched in the stomach (like the last time I bought a new guitar.)
>
> I hope some execs in a few instrument companies read this. If you keep
> overpricing your guitars, maybe the "kids" won't be comming back anymore
> and they'll find other places to express themselves musicially.
>
> Andrew
>

Andrew,

I think you have some valid points. Others perhaps not so valid.

To begin with, I think a distinction must be made between mass production
of a "commodity" and small or limited production of "handmade"
quality craftsmanship. The high-end ("handmade") of any market is never
intended for mass consumption - it is a niche who's customers are
the most discerning, and have the money to induldge their tastes. By
contrast, the low and mid range of any market is intended for mass
consumption. Mass consumption requires mass production; the child of
high technology. Mass consumption also requires the product to be
within buying-reach of the mass consumer - the price has to be low
enough that enough people can afford to buy the product that the company
can make sufficient profit to stay in business. NEVER are the high-end
goods available in quantities or prices to satisfy the mass market demand.
In short, this is what you are demanding. You're suggestion that
every aspiring guitarist should be able to afford the same quality
guitar as his favorite professional musician "star" is like suggesting
that every auto driver should be able to buy and afford a Rolls Royce.
Perhaps it is this perception that is the root of your dissatisfaction,
rather than the quality of the guitars that are available.

What has happened in the past twenty or so years is that
many of the "high-end" manufacturers are making available to the mass
market a range of products of lower quality and price. Look no further
than Martin, Guild, Gibson, Taylor, BMW ...

In the low and mid range guitar market, there are better and cheaper
guitars being offered now than there were 20 years ago.
For example, I know of one manufacturer, Vester, who manufactures a
cutaway six string guitar WITH pickup for a lower retail price ($299
Canadian) than I can even buy the raw materials for a "high-end"
guitar. The Vester at that price is a steal. It is well made,
very playable, sounds okay amplified or not. I also know of an
instructional video tape AND guitar that RETAILS for $29.99 Canadian!
(It's made in China and is a bit crude, but still plays and sounds okay.)
Twenty years ago, could you buy an instructional video and a guitar for
less than the price of, say, two cartons of cigarettes?

In my opinion, there is a lot of low priced junk on the market. However,
there is also available a variety of very good lower or mid-priced
guitars that are far more guitar-for-the-money than could be purchased
20 years ago. One of the problems is in the shear ignorance of the
buying public. If one knows how to discern good from bad, the task of
finding a good low or mid-priced guitar is fairly easy. The hard part
is accepting the reality that, when played well, even an inexpensive
guitar can be very satisfying to play and to listen to; one doesn't
necessarily need the same guitar that your favorite "star" has in order
to sound just as good and enjoy playing just as much. Perhaps less
attention should be payed to "keeping up with the Jones'" and more
attention payed to enjoying playing.

Charles Tauber, Luthier

Tcaster51

unread,
Dec 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/4/95
to
As a music dealer, teacher and repairman, I agree that prices for guitars
seem a bit high. I don't know where you got your information, but you
are'nt even close. The guitars cost us much more than you think they
do.Think of freight costs, outragously high. Then add the repairmans
charge to set the guitars up to play. Sadly, few music stores do this. And
while our cost is based on the list price, when a dealer discounts a
guitar, he'll make a 10 to 20% margin on it. Not anywhere near the 95 to
100% that you claim. Think about this before you think your local music
dealer is raping on your next guitar purchase.

Dominick Dell'Erba

unread,
Dec 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/4/95
to
In article <49ur27$d...@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk>,

Mooney,

Agreed. I read an interview with Alvin Lee a few years ago and he
paid almost one thousand pounds for a Gibson ES-335. The one he *still*
plays. Purchased in circa, 1962.

Dominick


Daniel Stanley

unread,
Dec 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/4/95
to
tomb...@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (Thomas F Brown) wrote:
>
>>In article <49qq0h$j...@ralph.vnet.net>, ch...@vnet.net (Charles Held)
wrote:
>>
>>
>> When the '59 Les Paul came out, government at all levels accounted for
15% of
>> GDP. It is now 47%. You figure out why shit is so damned expensive.
>
>Uh, inflation? Oh no...wait! It's Evil Government Bureaucrats.
>I knew that. Excuse me, I gotta go bomb a preschool now...

I saw some Jack-Booted Government Thugs down by my local music store the
other night. They arrived in Stealth helicopters, and, upon gaining
entry
to the store, went to work altering price tags.

So I joined the NRA.

D. STANLEY
nsl...@prodigy.com
" Truth is not confusion" - XXXXX


Thomas F Brown

unread,
Dec 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/4/95
to
In article <49t8ri$1...@ralph.vnet.net> ch...@vnet.net (Charles Held) writes:
>
>Were you to spend a little less time thinking up meaningless sarcastic
>comebacks and a little more time learning basic economics (you ARE posting
>from an .edu domain, remember?), you would know that inflation is the result of
>too much money chasing too few goods. Where does that money come from? The
>government printing press is the only correct answer. Why does the government
>print too much money? So they can (a) collect more of it back in taxes through
>'bracket creep', and (b) make it look like the national debt is less than it
>really is, by converting deficits incurred at yesterday's dollar value into
>debt at today's lower dollar value.
>
>Very simple, if you think about it.

More like simple-minded. So you've explained inflation. Now explain
why guitars are over-priced, if indeed they are.

Mike Healy

unread,
Dec 4, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/4/95
to

I have heard that Japanese investors have really driven up the market,
grabbing any vintage stuff they could find. If so, maybe we'll get lucky.
The Japanese scarfed up a lot of US real estate when their economy was
booming, which they are now dumping for major losses. Maybe the vintage
gear will be dumped at a loss in ten years. Well, maybe not :-)

Mike Healy

he...@nosc.mil


JPS

unread,
Dec 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/5/95
to
>Mooney,

>Agreed. I read an interview with Alvin Lee a few years ago and he
>paid almost one thousand pounds for a Gibson ES-335. The one he *still*
>plays. Purchased in circa, 1962.

>Dominick

A. The funniest single thread I've read in a long time. Thanks guys
for being so impassioned.

B. I bought a 335 in 1977 or 78 for $425. That's the last guitar I
ever bought. I play it all the time. What's it worth now? $2000? or
$450?


Captain Liberal

unread,
Dec 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/5/95
to
In article <ACE63622...@198.69.103.10>, adou...@belvoir.com (Andrew
Douglas) says...
>
>I bought a used, mint condition guitar. It's a Steinberger bass (the
"real"
>one)

Mind telling me where you got it?

I've been looking for one for a while that wasn't astronomically priced...

Captain Liberal


giri iyengar

unread,
Dec 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/5/95
to
>In article <49nqs5$t...@nuke.csu.net>
>asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu (And) writes:
>
>>The only affordable
>>guitars are cheap junk that lose 2/3 of their value the second you walk
>>out of the store with them. They suck so bad.

You are arbitrarily imposing your idea of what is 'affordable' on
the guitar industry. How did you arrive at the idea of what a basic
guitar should cost? Would you demand that Chevy sell Corvettes for
$10,000, and then whine that the only car you can get for less than
$10,000 (which is all you can afford) is a piece of shit?
Guitars aren't exactly cheap. Yes, that's true. So save for a few
more months and buy a decent one. If you can't afford a decent one,
I feel bad for you, but you can't run around *demanding* a certain
price on a certain product. And as with most other products, you
get what you pay for. I too wish I could get better stuff cheaper.
You just have to deal with it. Get over it. Take a good look at
your finances and get the best guitar you can afford. Buy used.
Wait a little while and save while you wait. $50 a month for 6
months can get you a *serious* upgrade from whatever you can buy
now.

Me? I'm saving for a Matchless.

Later..
..Giri


RussSwanson

unread,
Dec 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/5/95
to
In the past 10 years I have dug up the following guitars


Michael Davis

unread,
Dec 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/5/95
to
"Todd L. McCagg" <fly...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>>I'm fed up with overpriced guitars!
>
>Dear Andrew:
> blah blah blah <<snippety snip>>
>When a consumer walks into Macy's (Marshall Field or whatever) and a
>coat is marked $100, people usually pay $100. If you go the supermarket
>and hamburger is $3.00 a lb., you pay $3.00 a lb.. Why then, do you walk
>into a music store and see a guitar for $400 and expect to pay $200. I
>have been a player since 1965 (professionally, not garage, thank you),
>in retail (guitar-bass-drums-electronics) for 14 years, and as a
>manufacturer's rep for the last 10.
> blah blah blah <<snippety snip>>
>Sincerely,
>Todd McCagg
>
Todd, you have to be kidding! PLease tell me you are kidding.
If you aren't kidding, i think you need to realize that your reply displays a
lot of arrogance, and pontification.

Probably just another example of how manufacturers have a better idea of whats
good for us better than we do.


Brian Rost

unread,
Dec 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/5/95
to
In article <49nqs5$t...@nuke.csu.net>
asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu (And) writes:

>The only affordable
>guitars are cheap junk that lose 2/3 of their value the second you walk out
>out of the store with them. They suck so bad

What does "affordable" mean? Guitars are already quite inexpensive
compared to many other musical instruments.

I can buy a very nice top-quality electric guitar in the $1000-1500
range. That money buys you only a cheap, student-level instrument if
you go look at cellos, string basses, oboes, etc. Symphony string
players may pay over $1500 for their *bow*, and over $15,000 for their
instrument. Yeah, there are some vintage Les Pauls and Strats going
for $20,000 but there are also vintage violins selling for $200,000.
I paid more for a gig bag for my string bass than many folks pay for
their first guitar ($250).

The low prices of guitars has a lot to do with their popularity.


--

Brian Rost
Ascom Nexion
ro...@nexen.com


********************************************************

You might call me the Bob Brunning of the NE Cajun music scene

********************************************************

ElTejanglo

unread,
Dec 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/5/95
to
asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu wrote:
> I'm fed up with overpriced guitars!

Technology has made them A LOT cheaper to produce today than they have
ever
been to make.
If guitars were resonably priced according the cost of their development
in
the same way computer have, they should only cost $200 each, cases $50,
amps
much cheaper.<<<

The markup on new guitars is offensive and digusting. The only

affordable
guitars are cheap junk that lose 2/3 of their value the second you walk
out
out of the store with them. They suck so bad, that when beginning guitar
players try to learn on them, they become frustrated and their sound is
not
pleasing and does not sound like their idols who inspired them to play
guitar
in the first place.<

To which gma...@aol.com replied:

>What a pathetic line of snivelling, crybaby, bullshit.What a pathetic
line of snivelling, crybaby, bullshit.<

Ain't that the truth! Glad to see someone could size this one up and call
it the way it is.

La Vida Es Sueno, amigos,

El T.

ber...@magicnet.net

unread,
Dec 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/5/95
to
If you look around, you can find a Jackson or Kramer, some new, some
used, for $200.00 to $300.00. Don't waste your money on fender and
gibson hype, they're not that great and they're certainly not worth the
money. Ive played many jacksons and kramers that play and sound 100 times
better than gibson and fender. Its all hype!


Port'o'Chael

unread,
Dec 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/5/95
to
In article <49ur27$d...@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk>, John Moone
<moo...@prk1wc.igw.bt.co.uk> wrote:
> Why an american would even consider buying a Japanese guitar is beyond
> me, but I suppose that's another thread.

I am an American that owns 3 Japanese guitars. Two of them
are Japanese Fender Strats, that have features that NO U.S.
Strat has. They are unique (one is VERY unique), and serve
my purpose admirably. Were I to try to purchase an American
Strat to do the same thing, it would have to come from the
Custom Shop, and would cost upwards of $3000(US), whereas I
bought these in a pawnshop for around $200 apiece.
The 3rd is an Ibanez, which also has features that no
American guitar has in that price range. And for the Hamer
Lovers thread that has been permeating here lately, I also
have one of those. It is DIFFERENT than my Ibanez, and serves
a different purpose. I like them both, but would not trade
on for the other.
The point here is that I am not a collector; I buy guitars
to PLAY. Hence, the country of origin for the instrument
does not concern me, only its suitability for my purposes.
---Michael...
_____________________________ __________________________
_____________________________BGSC__________________________
My opinions are mine only,though they SHOULD be everyone's!

Joe Bac

unread,
Dec 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/5/95
to
Hey - if you can't stand the heat - get out of the kitchen.

--
|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<|
| Joseph G. Bac Phone: 408 447-7190 |
| Hewlett-Packard Co. Fax: 408 447-5254 |
| 19091 Pruneridge Ave. MS 46LR Email: joe...@cup.hp.com |
| Cupertino, CA 95014 HPDESK: Joe_Bac@HP4700 |
|>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<|

SEFSTRAT

unread,
Dec 5, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/5/95
to

You have obviously not played a lot of guitars.

While the occasional Jackson or Kramer may be a good instrument indeed,
and may be the "perfect" instrument for you, dismissing Fender and Gibson
guitars as "hype" is, at best, abysmally ignorant...and, at worst,
intentionally mean-spirited. Many of us CAN, after many years of hard
work at our professions and after 25 years or more of playing guitar,
afford to play what we wish. Give us a little credit; we know a decent
instrument when we play one. When I bought my first Paul Reed Smith a few
years ago, I have never HEARD of them. My local dealer, knowing what I
play and like, recommended that I try one. I loved it. I bought it. For
a couple of years, guitarists used to pull me aside between sets and ask
what I was playing, because it was unfamiliar to them.

So maybe it ain't all "hype". Just maybe it has something to do with the
INSTRUMENTS.

I remind you that Eddie Van Halen referred to his old Kramer as "such a
piece of s**t, really", in a GP interview. I haven't seen anyone refer to
strats or LPs that way, though.

Steve
SEFS...@AOL.com

Antony Scriven

unread,
Dec 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/6/95
to
asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu (And) wrote:
>
> I'm fed up with overpriced guitars!
>
> Technology has made them A LOT cheaper to produce today than they have ever
> been to make.
> If guitars were resonably priced according the cost of their development in
> the same way computer have, they should only cost $200 each, cases $50, amps
> much cheaper.

Yeah, Marshall stacks for a dime a dozen. And there should be world peace and
your picks should always be where you left them.

> [...] The only affordable


> guitars are cheap junk that lose 2/3 of their value the second you walk out
> out of the store with them.

2nd hand goods tend to do that.

> They suck so bad, that when beginning guitar
> players try to learn on them, they become frustrated and their sound is not
> pleasing and does not sound like their idols who inspired them to play guitar

> in the first place. [...]

I never had that problem. I mean, I never blamed it my guitar.
Playing guitar takes effort and dedication. Frustration is part and
parcel of the learning process.

Whatever musical instrument you learn, you start with the cheap stuff and you
work at it. Same with a car or paints or anything.


Tony
ad.sc...@ic.ac.uk


Michael Murray BB

unread,
Dec 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/6/95
to
Hello, anybody have any info on a Epiphone Spirit guitar,the trussrod plate
says Spirit made by Gibson, the headstock says Epiphone USA, I looked all
around the web for info on this guitar using serial # searches with leads
telling me it was made anywhere between 66' and 82', also if this guitar
was vintage would changing the original pickups to Seymour Duncan's depreciate
its value ?

Oh, by the way the serial # is 82042030.

Any info greatly appreciated.

Thanx, m...@tellabs.com


Kevin J Rys

unread,
Dec 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/6/95
to
> They suck so bad, that when beginning guitar
> players try to learn on them, they become frustrated and their sound is not
> pleasing and does not sound like their idols who inspired them to play
guitar
> in the first place. [...]

hmmmm... i bought an eterna (yamaha 2nd) acoustic 12 years ago
as my "starter" guitar. I think i chumped up about $150 for it,
which was a lot of money for a 15 year old kid. Anyway, almost
everyone i know loves its tone and, aside from normal maintenance
(fret wire, rod adjust, etc.) has served me faithfully all along.
Was I lucky? I don't think so. I just kept trying all the "budget"
guitars i could get my hands on until I found one that sounded like
what i thought an acoustic should.

I've come awfully close to dipping into the well for that swell
takamine or gibson, and they do sound much better than my beat to
hell starter, but i'm just gonna hold out until i come across
the right one at the right price (again).

If you want a good price on a guitar (or anything) try this:

do most (if not all) of your business at the same shop.

talk to the salesmen and be friendly, even if you're just "browsing"

compliment the instruments instead of just bitching about the price.


if the saleseman thinks your a nice person, and that you appreciate
more in music than a price tag **AND** that you're gonna keep on
walkin thru that door whenever you need a pick or a pickup or a
marshall stack you'll be pleasantly suprised. (that's jst my
personal experience though...)


Beau Randall

unread,
Dec 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/6/95
to ci...@plato.phy.ohiou.edu
ci...@plato.phy.OhioU.Edu (Dave Cigna) wrote:

>In article <49qq0h$j...@ralph.vnet.net>, Charles Held <ch...@vnet.net> wrote:
>>When the '59 Les Paul came out, government at all levels accounted for 15% of
>>GDP. It is now 47%. You figure out why shit is so damned expensive.
>
>In 1959 a Les Paul Standard cost $265. Let's see, at 6% inflation per year
>it would cost $2160 in 1995. Hmm.... What do they cost today?
>
> -- Dave Cigna


About $50,000 or so.

Mike Benedetti

unread,
Dec 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/6/95
to
rost@nutshell (Brian Rost) writes:

>asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu (And) writes:
>>The only affordable
>>guitars are cheap junk that lose 2/3 of their value the second you walk out
>>out of the store with them. They suck so bad
>What does "affordable" mean? Guitars are already quite inexpensive
>compared to many other musical instruments.

Right on, brother. A new accordion would cost me thousands of dollars. You know
what kind of accordion I can get for $200? One that _sucks_.

P.S. I don't have to buy myself a guitar because there's always someone with
a guitar who's happy to lend it when I need one. Borrow an accordion? Forget
it.

Mike
--
"Rock and roll is more interesting to me than jazz...It's a curious thing,
but the reason the beat doesn't oppress me as much as in rock and roll as
it does in jazz, I think, is because the volume is so high. In other words,
one's attention is taken away from the beat by the amplitude."
--John Cage, 1966

George4908

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Dec 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/6/95
to
Someone wrote: "I've heard plenty of people refer to LP's as boat anchors
and equate a strat's neck and action to that of a baseball bat."

FYI, when someone refers to a neck as being like a baseball bat, it's
generally meant as a compliment. What a great thread, though. History
lessons, economic theory, passion, envy and greed. I'm enjoying it
immensely!

Ged Haydon

unread,
Dec 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/6/95
to
In article <49vdao$m...@shpk1.candu.aecl.ca> charles tauber <tau...@candu.aecl.ca> writes:
>From: charles tauber <tau...@candu.aecl.ca>
>Subject: Re: Fed up with OVERPRICED guitars!
>Date: 4 Dec 1995 18:06:16 GMT

>In my opinion, there is a lot of low priced junk on the market. However,
>there is also available a variety of very good lower or mid-priced
>guitars that are far more guitar-for-the-money than could be purchased
>20 years ago. One of the problems is in the shear ignorance of the
>buying public. If one knows how to discern good from bad, the task of
>finding a good low or mid-priced guitar is fairly easy. The hard part
>is accepting the reality that, when played well, even an inexpensive
>guitar can be very satisfying to play and to listen to; one doesn't
>necessarily need the same guitar that your favorite "star" has in order
>to sound just as good and enjoy playing just as much. Perhaps less
>attention should be payed to "keeping up with the Jones'" and more
>attention payed to enjoying playing.

>Charles Tauber, Luthier
Well said
ged

Edward Oates

unread,
Dec 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/6/95
to
In article <49nqs5$t...@nuke.csu.net>, asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu says...

>
>
> I'm fed up with overpriced guitars!
>
> Technology has made them A LOT cheaper to produce today than they have
ever
>been to make.
> If guitars were resonably priced according the cost of their development in
>the same way computer have, they should only cost $200 each, cases $50,
amps
>much cheaper.
>
> The markup on new guitars is offensive and digusting. The only affordable

>guitars are cheap junk that lose 2/3 of their value the second you walk out
>out of the store with them. They suck so bad, that when beginning guitar

>players try to learn on them, they become frustrated and their sound is not
>pleasing and does not sound like their idols who inspired them to play guitar
>in the first place.
>
<... much stuff deleted for brevity ...>
>Andrew
>
Andrew,

If you really believe that you can create a quality instrument which can be
consisitently manufactured (that is, each one sounds and plays pretty much
like the others), then by all means, get some venture capital and go into
business making these guitars. If you are correct, and your instruments (the
Andystrat, I suppose :) are professional quality and priced at $200 retail,
you'll be rich beyond your dreams of avarice.

I suspect, however, that when you get right down to it, you'll find that your
dreams of a $200 (retail, after discounts) professional guitar evaporate when
confrunted with the realities of actually running a business for profit. If I'm
wrong, then you can be rich!
--
Regards,
Ed Oates
(eoa...@netcom.com)


Thomas F Brown

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Dec 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/6/95
to
In article <4a5kol$a...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> georg...@aol.com (George4908) writes:
>
>FYI, when someone refers to a neck as being like a baseball bat, it's
>generally meant as a compliment.

I've received similar compliments, but not about my neck.

Eric Senzig

unread,
Dec 6, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/6/95
to
In article <4a37rh$9...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, sefs...@aol.com (SEFSTRAT) says:

>You have obviously not played a lot of guitars.

How would you know? I've played plenty of guitars!

>
>While the occasional Jackson or Kramer may be a good instrument indeed,
>and may be the "perfect" instrument for you, dismissing Fender and Gibson
>guitars as "hype" is, at best, abysmally ignorant...and, at worst,
>intentionally mean-spirited.

Ignorant? Im giving my opinion, You know, technology has improved since
the design of the LP & strat. Guitars are trendy, right now, gibsons
and fenders are "in" and jacksons and kramers are "out"


>Many of us CAN, after many years of hard
>work at our professions and after 25 years or more of playing guitar,
>afford to play what we wish.

I can afford to play what I wish too, but I was merely making a point,
I mean read the title of the thread! I was simply stating that for 300.00
you can buy a jackson that plays better than a 2000.00 LP or 600.00
strat. As for me, I have my guitars custom built from scratch by a luthier
here in Orlando.


>Give us a little credit; we know a decent
>instrument when we play one. When I bought my first Paul Reed Smith a few
>years ago, I have never HEARD of them. My local dealer, knowing what I
>play and like, recommended that I try one. I loved it. I bought it. For
>a couple of years, guitarists used to pull me aside between sets and ask
>what I was playing, because it was unfamiliar to them.
>
>So maybe it ain't all "hype". Just maybe it has something to do with the
>INSTRUMENTS.
>
>I remind you that Eddie Van Halen referred to his old Kramer as "such a
>piece of s**t, really", in a GP interview. I haven't seen anyone refer to
>strats or LPs that way, though.
>

You know why EVH called the kramer a "piece of s#$t"? becasue he is trying to
sell his new signature series guitars which im sure will be a piece of #$%^
when he changes to his next endorsement - talk about hype! And yes, I've heard
plenty of people refer to LP's as "boat anchors" and equate a strats neck


and action to that of a "baseball bat"


>Steve
>SEFS...@AOL.com

Kurt Ballou

unread,
Dec 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/7/95
to
to the guy who said that evh said his kramer was a peice of shit just to sell
his signature model, i read an interview with him in 1985, way before the
signature came out, where he was saying the same thing.

SEFSTRAT

unread,
Dec 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/7/95
to

Yes, I recall it, too. He said he thought that the Krameer was garbage,
but he handn't found anything he really liked.

Steve
SEFS...@AOL.com

A Simple Guy!

unread,
Dec 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/7/95
to
And (asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu) wrote:

I'm fed up with overpriced guitars!

Technology has made them A LOT cheaper to produce today than they have ever
been to make.
If guitars were resonably priced according the cost of their development in
the same way computer have, they should only cost $200 each, cases $50, amps
much cheaper.

The markup on new guitars is offensive and digusting. The only affordable
guitars are cheap junk that lose 2/3 of their value the second you walk out
out of the store with them. They suck so bad, that when beginning guitar
players try to learn on them, they become frustrated and their sound is not
pleasing and does not sound like their idols who inspired them to play guitar
in the first place.

Many guitars are sold at outrageous list prices, then discounted to
still outrageous overpriced prices. They cost the stores less than half of
what they're selling it for minus 5%. This markup percentagewise is higher
that of a Mercedes Benz or Ferrari. Prices are made according to "perceived
image value" and not cost of manufacturer, development, labor, transportation,
and reasonable profit. It's price gouging pure and simple.

And many kids get frustrated that their cheap guitars sound bad, go out of
tune constantly, and feel "cheap" and give it up. This is stark contrast to
the 50's when even mail order catalog guitars were made in the USA and made
with quality that lasts.

I hope something changes the guitar market. USA guitars are like Harley
Davidson motorcycles, sold on image at outrageously overpriced prices to
only to very wealthy people who do not ride them, just bought for display
and investment value, real estate.

I'm just really fed up with these prices. Maybe something will happen in
the music biz where guitar bands are "out" again, like in the late 70's disco
era when guitars actually starting becomming realistically priced, new and
used, as instruments to be played by real people, not just vintage collectors.

I would have liked to have bought a new guitar this year, but the markup
and overpriced stigma attatched to it makes me feel like I've just got
punched in the stomach (like the last time I bought a new guitar.)

I hope some execs in a few instrument companies read this. If you keep
overpricing your guitars, maybe the "kids" won't be comming back anymore
and they'll find other places to express themselves musicially.

Andrew
--

Andrew, have you checked out PEAVEY guitars? They're made in the USA and
much more affordable than even some imports.


Andrew Rogers

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Dec 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/7/95
to
In article <1995Dec6.1...@tellab5.tellabs.com> m...@tellabs.com (Michael Murray BB) writes:
>Hello, anybody have any info on a Epiphone Spirit guitar...

Gibson discontinued the Epiphone name in 1970 and revived it in 1973 for their
lower-priced Asian-made instruments. There have been some American-made
Epiphones since then, and your Spirit is one of them; I believe those were
made in the early 80's. More recently, Gibson used the Epiphone name on some
acoustics made in the Flatiron plant in Montana.

Andrew

ber...@magicnet.net

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Dec 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/7/95
to
If his Kramers were garbage, why did he play them? He could afford
anything he wanted - also, he didn't play a les paul or strat did he now?
and besides, who cares what he likes and dislikes? He's not jesus
afterall!


Dale Grote

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Dec 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/7/95
to
In article <49vu9l$s...@hecate.umd.edu>, doctor@ (Dominick Dell'Erba) says:
>
>In article <49ur27$d...@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk>,
>John Moone <moo...@prk1wc.igw.bt.co.uk> wrote:
>>It is very interesting to read Americans complaining about the high
>>price of guitars, here in the UK we pay in Engish Pounds what you pay...


I was corresponding with someone in Belgium who was looking around
for a quality guitar. Before we lost touch, he was considering flying to the
states to buy a Taylor--which would still be cheaper, flight and guitar,
than buying something of similar quality in Europe!


Dale Grote

Andreas Toenne

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Dec 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/7/95
to
In article <4a4d37$2...@oban.cc.ic.ac.uk> Antony Scriven <ad.sc...@ic.ac.uk> writes:

Yeah, Marshall stacks for a dime a dozen. And there should be world peace and your picks should always be where you left them.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Amen! Has anyone seen my last one? ;-)

[stuff deleted]

Whatever musical instrument you learn, you start with the cheap stuff and you
work at it. Same with a car or paints or anything.

Are you sure? From my experience I would say that there is a strong lower
limit on instruments. You do not need a Steinway piano as a beginner but a
cheap Casio ``piano'' does not work. You do not want to learn guitar playing
on a cheap Strat clone for instance. I tried and failed! Not a pleasant
experience and it took me some time to try again. Now I own a LP standard
and the damn thing sings and dances. 8-)

Andreas Toenne


--

Andreas Toenne Voice: x49 681 5846272
Max-Planck-Institut Office: x49 681 302 5363
fuer Informatik e-mail: ato...@mpi-sb.mpg.de

Im Stadtwald
66123 Saarbruecken, Germany

Daniel Stanley

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Dec 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/7/95
to
eoa...@netcom.com (Edward Oates) wrote:
>
>In article <49nqs5$t...@nuke.csu.net>, asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu says.
.
>>
>>
>> I'm fed up with overpriced guitars!
>>
>> Technology has made them A LOT cheaper to produce today than they
have
>ever
>>been to make.
>> If guitars were resonably priced according the cost of their
development in
>>the same way computer have, they should only cost $200 each, cases $50,

>amps
>>much cheaper.
>>
>> The markup on new guitars is offensive and digusting. The only
affordable
>>guitars are cheap junk that lose 2/3 of their value the second you walk
out
>>out of the store with them. They suck so bad, that when beginning
guitar
>>players try to learn on them, they become frustrated and their sound is
not
>>pleasing and does not sound like their idols who inspired them to play
guitar
>>in the first place.
>>

I think a general trend ( in the US, at least) is that EVERYONE thinks
they should be paid top dollar for whatTHEY DO, but they shouldn't be
asked to pay much at all for the things they WANT.

I was talking to my plumber the other day about this. People always bitch
and moan about his hourly rate ( which is naturally about the same as any
other plumber in the area). Yet they complain that THIER clients ( or
employers) won't pay them what they worth.

Same here with guitars. Person A wants guitar X, but doesn't want to pay
what
the retail/middle man/manufacturor chain demands. BUT I'll bet person A
expects to be well compensated for whatever s/he does for a living, yet,
in fact, feels somewhat under-paid.

My .02

D. STANLEY
nsl...@prodigy.com
" Truth is not confusion" - XXXXX


CJSpeed

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Dec 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/7/95
to
In article <49ur27$d...@pheidippides.axion.bt.co.uk>, John Moone
<moo...@prk1wc.igw.bt.co.uk> writes:

>It is very interesting to read Americans complaining about the high

>price of guitars, here in the UK we pay in Engish Pounds what you pay in
>Dollars, which, depending on the rate of exchange, adds another third
>onto the price, but american guitars ARE the best, and if looked after
>will last a lifetime, so if you buy a guitar for $2000 and play it for
>ten years, that's $200 a year, and at the end of those ten years you
>decide to move up/move on the chances are you'll show a profit. I can't
>think of many things you can buy that will be so rewarding to play and
>appreciate at the same time.

Actually, if you decide to sell (or trade) that guitar at the end of ten
years, the difference between its current value and its original cost
divided by ten is what it cost you per year to play; thus, if it's still
worth $1,200, it only cost you $80/year. If it's now worth $2,400, it
MADE $40 a year for you (disregarding the impact of inflation). If it
holds its value, it didn't cost you a thing to use it for ten years.

These are the same principles that apply to car leases--the difference
between the beginning and ending values amortized over the life of the
lease approximates the fair market value of the lease. While the fully
loaded luxury cars may cost more to buy, they retain more of their value,
allowing lower lease payments than you may make on less expensive models.

The moral: you get what you pay for (sounds so cliche, but true
nonetheless). It doesn't take a Jimmy Page Les Paul or an Eric Clapton
Stratocaster to make good music, but if you're able to buy one of them,
why not? It won't necessarily make you a better player, but you'll
probably find you've been able to play for free if you ever decide to get
rid of it (and if you hang on to it, your grandchildren will love you)!

Carl

Thomas F Brown

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Dec 7, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/7/95
to

Yeah, but jesus has those nail holes in his hands, which gives
him an unfair advantage when it comes to speed chops since
they cut down on wind resistance pretty significantly.


Todd L. McCagg

unread,
Dec 8, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/8/95
to mpd...@email.uncc.edu
Michael Davis <mpd...@email.uncc.edu> wrote:

>"Todd L. McCagg" <fly...@interaccess.com> wrote:
>>>I'm fed up with overpriced guitars!
>>
>>Dear Andrew:
>> blah blah blah <<snippety snip>>
>>When a consumer walks into Macy's (Marshall Field or whatever) and a
>>coat is marked $100, people usually pay $100. If you go the supermarket
>>and hamburger is $3.00 a lb., you pay $3.00 a lb.. Why then, do you walk
>>into a music store and see a guitar for $400 and expect to pay $200. I
>>have been a player since 1965 (professionally, not garage, thank you),
>>in retail (guitar-bass-drums-electronics) for 14 years, and as a
>>manufacturer's rep for the last 10.
>> blah blah blah <<snippety snip>>
>>Sincerely,
>>Todd McCagg
>>
>Todd, you have to be kidding! PLease tell me you are kidding.
>If you aren't kidding, i think you need to realize that your reply displays a
>lot of arrogance, and pontification.
>
>Probably just another example of how manufacturers have a better idea of whats
>good for us better than we do.
>

No, I am not kidding. I wouldn't agree that my post was
arrogant, it was perhaps proud. Look up pontificate in
Webster's. If you are trying to cut me to the quick, be sure of
your slur and its context.

If you took the time to read my entire post, you would have
noticed that I am *not* a manufacturer. I do know hundreds of
guitar builder/manufacturers in the industry (affordable
products and premium) and do know if they were in it only for
the money, they would not be building guitars for a living.
This is truly a labor of love and while it does afford a
reasonable life style, it is not a rich man's game.

I certainly DO NOT have any idea of what is good for you. That,
in the world of art and guitars, is a highly subjective matter
and is too often based on your current state of financial
affairs. My point is that you *do* get that for which you have
paid. Cheap guitars are cheap guitars. Shop for what IS right
for you, listen (not blindly accept) to other folks' opinions,
develop a good relationship with your dealer and work together
to establish a fair price, and take care of your instrument so
that your purchase remains an investment.

When you graduate college and step up to the plate to assume
your position in the quest for your own brand of "The American
Dream" (meaning: a real job; Don't get me wrong-I still don't
have what I consider to be a real job-would never have one-I
prefer the music business-thank you), let me know what
instruments you find acceptable and also let me know their
prices.

Thanks for your kind attention,

Todd L. McCagg


Antony Scriven

unread,
Dec 8, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/8/95
to
ato...@mpi-sb.mpg.de (Andreas Toenne) wrote:

> Are you sure? From my experience I would say that there is a strong lower
> limit on instruments. You do not need a Steinway piano as a beginner but a
> cheap Casio ``piano'' does not work. You do not want to learn guitar playing
> on a cheap Strat clone for instance.

No kidding. But back in the real world, who's parents are going to fork out
for a Les Paul Standard for their kid to learn the guitar?
And anyway, I don't think that a professional quality instrument is needed to
know whether the guitar is gonna be the instrument for you. Or to get enjoyment
out of playing it. I just don't reckon that cheap guitars are as bad as people
make out, that's all.

> I tried and failed! Not a pleasant
> experience and it took me some time to try again. Now I own a LP standard
> and the damn thing sings and dances. 8-)

So does my £80 back up guitar! But that's cos I've got better.

Tony
ad.sc...@ic.ac.uk

BAKimsey

unread,
Dec 8, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/8/95
to
In article <4a9m82$g...@nntp.interaccess.com>, "Todd L. McCagg"
<fly...@interaccess.com> writes:

>>>When a consumer walks into Macy's (Marshall Field or whatever) and a
>>>coat is marked $100, people usually pay $100. If you go the supermarket

>>>and hamburger is $3.00 a lb., you pay $3.00 a lb..

Well, I nearly always try for a deal. At the supermarket, I ask if
there's a "family pack" special. At Macy's, I ask if it's going on sale,
or if I can get a discount if I also buy a pair of shoes. There's almost
nothing I want so bad that it can't wait for a sale or for another store.

My local guitar shop and I have a deal which works well for us. For an
in-stock item, I show him Elderly's price (or Musician's Friend) and we
add about 10% or so to that price, and I'll buy it from him. If he feels
he can get top dollar for it, he says so, and we don't deal unless I want
to pay his price. I buy a fair amount of stuff and he'd rather lose a
little potential and make the sale than lose the whole sale which would be
the case if I just went mail-order. If I request a special order, we even
cut the 10% since it's a guaranteed sale for him.

SEFSTRAT

unread,
Dec 8, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/8/95
to
<<My local guitar shop and I have a deal which works well for us. For an
in-stock item, I show him Elderly's price (or Musician's Friend) and we
add about 10% or so to that price, and I'll buy it from him. If he feels
he can get top dollar for it, he says so, and we don't deal unless I want
to pay his price. I buy a fair amount of stuff and he'd rather lose a
little potential and make the sale than lose the whole sale which would be
the case if I just went mail-order. If I request a special order, we even
cut the 10% since it's a guaranteed sale for him.>>


Interesting.

Locally, I'll get anything (except a boutique or "B" profit item) for 40%
off list, no problem.

Steve
SEFS...@AOL.com

telecaster

unread,
Dec 8, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/8/95
to
In article <1995Dec6.1...@tellab5.tellabs.com>,
m...@tellabs.com says...
First, any time you change the pick-ups on a guitar, you risk
decreasing its value. I can't think of any circumstance when
changing the pick-ups makes a guitar by a reputatble
manyfacturer worth more.

The spirit, if it's the one I'm thinking of, is from the late
70's - mid 80's.. a double cutaway in the Les Paul
Junior/Special/TV mold.. with an explorer headstock, two
ho-hum-buckers.. maybe a whammy? The guy in Huey Lewis played
one for about a week.

During this period, Gibson was using up a lot of spare parts
from earlier failed instruments. A quick look through Semie
Moseley's "Stellas and Stratocasters" will introduce you to some
of the Gibson variants.

Am I right? Has anyone seen a Gibson/Epiphone Spirit?


Steve Pinkston

unread,
Dec 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/9/95
to

>Craigbrndo (craig...@aol.com) wrote:
>: So what comes after "Generation X?"
>: Generation Y?

Let's see...tie it in with the millenium, so maybe
"generation 2K." Nah...

0r perhaps, since we progress from the "eighties" to the
"nineties" to the..."Naughties?"

Maybe they'll call themselves "zeroes" for their
birth decade.


Steve Pinkston
pink...@kentrox.com
"My employer is not responsible for my dumb opinions"


John Tarng

unread,
Dec 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/9/95
to
ber...@magicnet.net (Eric Senzig) writes:

>You know why EVH called the kramer a "piece of s#$t"? becasue he is trying to
>sell his new signature series guitars which im sure will be a piece of #$%^
>when he changes to his next endorsement - talk about hype! And yes, I've heard
>plenty of people refer to LP's as "boat anchors" and equate a strats neck
>and action to that of a "baseball bat"


It's ironic that as EVH's guitars has gotten better, his playing and VH
song quality have tailed off. By that rationale, I guess that if I sell
my Les Paul Standard and promote my Strat copy to main axe with the
addition of a Floyd Rose and a Gibson PAF in the bridge, I'll become a
guitar legend (heh heh).

There's no such thing as a bad guitar. Only bad people.

SEFSTRAT

unread,
Dec 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/9/95
to
<<If his Kramers were garbage, why did he play them? He could afford
anything he wanted - also, he didn't play a les paul or strat did he now?
and besides, who cares what he likes and dislikes? He's not jesus
afterall!>>

No...but universally, in the business and out, I have never heard his
integrity questioned.

I think he meant that there was NOTHING out there that he liked any
better....so why change. But he realized that he was playing "a piece of
shit".

Steve
SEFS...@AOL.com

I'm your huckleberry

unread,
Dec 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/9/95
to
Antony Scriven <ad.sc...@ic.ac.uk> wrote:
>ato...@mpi-sb.mpg.de (Andreas Toenne) wrote:
>
>> Are you sure? From my experience I would say that there is a strong lower
>> limit on instruments. You do not need a Steinway piano as a beginner but a
>> cheap Casio ``piano'' does not work. You do not want to learn guitar playing
>> on a cheap Strat clone for instance.

well I started on a cheap strat copy and still have it!! Noone needs
a $1,000 plus guitar to learn !! C'mon !!

>No kidding. But back in the real world, who's parents are going to fork out
>for a Les Paul Standard for their kid to learn the guitar?
>And anyway, I don't think that a professional quality instrument is needed to
>know whether the guitar is gonna be the instrument for you. Or to get enjoyment
>out of playing it. I just don't reckon that cheap guitars are as bad as people
>make out, that's all.
>
>> I tried and failed! Not a pleasant
>> experience and it took me some time to try again. Now I own a LP standard
>> and the damn thing sings and dances. 8-)

So you let a cheap guitar keep you from practicing !!! Hell I would never
have started based on that !! To say nothing of the REALLY worthless
15w 'marathon' amp I played my shit guitar on for a year and a half!!!
Geez!! Everyone wants to sound like Eddie VH or SRV after one day !!!
You make me sick !!! >>>> huck <<<<

>So does my £80 back up guitar! But that's cos I've got better.
>
>Tony
>ad.sc...@ic.ac.uk
>
>

huck


Jason Beatty

unread,
Dec 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/9/95
to
You get what you pay for.

SEFSTRAT

unread,
Dec 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/9/95
to
<<No kidding. But back in the real world, who's parents are going to fork
out
for a Les Paul Standard for their kid to learn the guitar?
And anyway, I don't think that a professional quality instrument is needed
to
know whether the guitar is gonna be the instrument for you. Or to get
enjoyment
out of playing it. I just don't reckon that cheap guitars are as bad as
people
make out, that's all.>>

Agreed. You gan get a WAY better guitar for, say, $200 than you could a
few years ago. WAY better. Really playable, too. Like the cheapest
Ysmaha Pacifica.

Nice time to be a beginner........

Steve


SEFS...@AOL.com

Paul Zukowski

unread,
Dec 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/9/95
to
Also don't forget that quaility guitars require lots of hand work to build.

The price a manufactures charges reflects the price of the wood.
Go check out the cost of instrument grade mahogany or ebony or rosewood
It's all imported and extremely expensive.

The mark up finally represents how fequently you buy something.
a can of corn has a very tiny mark up you buy it all the time.
How many times will you buy a quality guitar?????

Store markups are not large on most guitars
Considering they are not frequent purchased

You want to see high markups consider a cup of soda from a fountain, cost
is about 9 cents you pay a buck for it.
bet you never complain either.

--
To get random signatures put text files into a folder called ³Random Signatures² into your Preferences folder.

Daniel Stanley

unread,
Dec 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/9/95
to
Antony Scriven <ad.sc...@ic.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>ato...@mpi-sb.mpg.de (Andreas Toenne) wrote:
>
>> Are you sure? From my experience I would say that there is a strong
lower
>> limit on instruments. You do not need a Steinway piano as a beginner
but a
>> cheap Casio ``piano'' does not work. You do not want to learn guitar
playing
>> on a cheap Strat clone for instance.
>
>No kidding. But back in the real world, who's parents are going to fork
out
>for a Les Paul Standard for their kid to learn the guitar?

Geez, I can remember my first " Student Guitar", a Stella. It was
horrible, finger rending high action, and intonation was good only for
the cowboy chords. Tuners could be SEEN to turn on their own while I was
playing.
I kept at it. Then my folks bought me a cheap-o SG copy. Yas it was
electric, but only marginally better then the Stella. ALL my guitar
playing friends had similarly horrible guitars, elec AND acoustic. The
music stores were full of 'em! And we all kept at it. Then we all
graduated to used guitars that we could afford. I got a Tele ( alot of us
did), someone else picked up a Hagstrom, there were a bunch of SG players,
and a mess of Strats. At that point WE HAD TO BUY OUR OWN GUITARS.

I belive that currently there are a whole lot of inexpensive beginer
quality guitars that are absolutely playable, unlike when I was a kid. A
Les Paul is NOT a beginers instrument! Nor is an American Std. Strat
yaddayadda. Sure it would be great to start on one, but no-one should
shell out those kinds of bucks for a kid who may lose interest anyway.

A guy who was in a band that was big before I was paying attention kind
of summed up the attitude the original poster ( and alot of people) in a
memorable lyric: " We want it all and we want it.....NOW!"

Todd L. McCagg

unread,
Dec 9, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/9/95
to baki...@aol.com
I applaud your business sense AND your sense of fairness. What
is disheartening is the customers that walk in the store and
DEMAND prices 10-20% or more LOWER than the mailorder price. OF
course, they expect full service and take for granted the
benefit of being able to actually sit down and try some of
these instruments. If I were in retail, I too would do
everything in my power NOT to lose a customer like you.

A good sense of business, fairness, quality, and (from what I
am starting to see very lacking on this newsgroup) a sense of
humor, is more that a music retailer could hope for.

Thanks for your insights,

Todd


telecaster

unread,
Dec 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/10/95
to
Holy Cow!

I think I know what you guys mean now...
I went window shopping around Sacramento today.. I cannot
believe the prices. Dealers are asking $1100 for L.P. studios!
The dealers are claiming $1400.00 list prices on these "entry
level" Les Pauls. They say Gibson is raising their prices
to cash in on the demand from overseas markets. Geez, I
remember when standards went new for less than a grand!

This is disgusting, if what the dealers say is true. I bought a
common wine red, gold-plated parts L.P. Studio last winter, Feb
'95 I think.. for $700 (and I thought that was a little steep)!
The variable was; I got it at Guitar Center in Berkeley, a mass
retailer in a very large urban area.

This is culture shock! I've always lived in big cities,
Chicago, Seattle, and the S.F. Bay area. Have players in
smaller cities always seen price-tags like these, or has Gibson
inflated its prices beyond comprehension?

I also finally checked out the Hamer. It's really easy to
understand how you Hamer enthusiasts out there come about your
product loyalty. It sounded good, even through a crap.. er,
crate amp.

Anyone with insights as to these LP prices?


Thomas F Brown

unread,
Dec 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/10/95
to
In article <4ac9ru$k...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> sefs...@aol.com (SEFSTRAT) writes:
>
>No...but universally, in the business and out, I have never heard his
>integrity questioned.

You haven't been around much, eh? He has admitted to endorsing
an amp he never used. I wouldn't trust him any farther than
I could toss Valerie.


SEFSTRAT

unread,
Dec 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/10/95
to
<<>No...but universally, in the business and out, I have never heard his
>integrity questioned.

You haven't been around much, eh? He has admitted to endorsing
an amp he never used. I wouldn't trust him any farther than
I could toss Valerie.>>

Which amp? The 5150? The one he uses onstage all the time?

Steve


SEFS...@AOL.com

GmagicB

unread,
Dec 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/10/95
to
telec...@earthlink.net wrote:...>>>They say Gibson is raising their
prices to cash in on the demand from overseas markets...... Have players

in
smaller cities always seen price-tags like these, or has Gibson
inflated its prices beyond comprehension?<<<<

From what you say it would seem that Gibson is obeying the law of supply
and demand. Thus the changes in the market place we see here. If there's a
the bright side to this, it is that as prices go up, there's more room at
the bootom for competitors with quality instruments to supply to the need
at the lower price points.

Kenji Ulstein

unread,
Dec 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/10/95
to
I agree which is why I buy used equipment. I just bought a '86 Fender
Strat for a reasonable $350. Just look around and you shall find.

____----------____
ToreZ of Lucid Inc. Ken...@U.Washington.edu

"Lucid is the best band."
-Some Guy

Eugene Vallee

unread,
Dec 10, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/10/95
to
bene...@blend.ugcs.caltech.edu (Mike Benedetti) writes:

> rost@nutshell (Brian Rost) writes:


> >asa...@et5sun.calstatela.edu (And) writes:
> >>The only affordable
> >>guitars are cheap junk that lose 2/3 of their value the second you walk out
> >>out of the store with them. They suck so bad

> >What does "affordable" mean? Guitars are already quite inexpensive
> >compared to many other musical instruments.
>
> Right on, brother. A new accordion would cost me thousands of dollars. You kn
> what kind of accordion I can get for $200? One that _sucks_.
>
> P.S. I don't have to buy myself a guitar because there's always someone with
> a guitar who's happy to lend it when I need one. Borrow an accordion? Forget
> it.
>
> Mike
> --
> "Rock and roll is more interesting to me than jazz...It's a curious thing,
> but the reason the beat doesn't oppress me as much as in rock and roll as
> it does in jazz, I think, is because the volume is so high. In other words,
> one's attention is taken away from the beat by the amplitude."
> --John Cage, 1966

Well just because a guitar is affordable dosnt mean thats it is cheap.
All the guitars that I have I got for under $60.00 and that includes a
brand new Washburn and a 1995 fender strat in mint condition. You just
have to look in the right places at the right time and dont let yourself
get suckerd in to crappy deals.

telecaster

unread,
Dec 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/11/95
to
In article <4aeu7n$n...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, gma...@aol.com
says...

Well, that would certainly include the Hamers, which seem to be
better than Gibsons.


noo...@ibm.net

unread,
Dec 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/11/95
to
>Many guitars are sold at outrageous list prices, then discounted to
>still outrageous overpriced prices. They cost the stores less than half of
>what they're selling it for minus 5%. This markup percentagewise is higher
>that of a Mercedes Benz or Ferrari. Prices are made according to "perceived
>image value" and not cost of manufacturer, development, labor, transportation,
>and reasonable profit. It's price gouging pure and simple.

Might want to research that before you speak next time--the manager of the
place my band buys all of it's stuff from once showed me the price he pays
for the stuff he buys. A Les Paul Standard herritage cherry sunburst, no
flames mind you, cost him $937. Now, the street price for these is generally
around $1300. So, he's making $363 on the guitar. Now, how many times have
you walked into your favorite store and seen the same guitar sitting there?
Now remember that he's only making $363 on a guitar that will sit in his
store for _at least_ three months before it sells. With his profits, he
must pay rent, utilities, pay employees, and purchase new equipment. If he
lowered his price, would he do? Live out of his car? Forgo eating? Cut
the guy a break!

Now we look at the guitar manufacturer--they're actually doing a pretty damn
good job at keeping the price down--remember, they have to pay rent,
utilities, pay employees, do R&D, watch for the latest trends, absorb losses
when the new design doesn't work out, buy raw materials, new equipment, make
repairs for breakdown, etc--all in the face of increasing wood prices,
decreasing wood supplies, and the tree huggers...ahem, environmentalists,
breathing down their throats about how their Satanic ways are destroying the
world as we know it, when they don't even use one one-hundredth of the wood
that the furniture industry uses. What are they supposed to do? Have
employees work for free? Make guitars out of plastic? Cut them a break!

> And many kids get frustrated that their cheap guitars sound bad, go out of
>tune constantly, and feel "cheap" and give it up. This is stark contrast to
>the 50's when even mail order catalog guitars were made in the USA and made
>with quality that lasts.

Yep, those USA made Silvertones where really high quality build to last...

> I'm just really fed up with these prices. Maybe something will happen in
>the music biz where guitar bands are "out" again, like in the late 70's disco
>era when guitars actually starting becomming realistically priced, new and
>used, as instruments to be played by real people, not just vintage collectors.

What?!? Now you're just slobbering garbage--if guitar music goes out, why
would anyone want to buy a guitar? Moot point. :)

Andrew--why don't you turn your attention to the REAL overpriced stuff--the
AUTOMOTIVE INDUSTRY. Why do we have to pay $12,000 for a fucking compact
car?!?

============================================================================
| Noodles | Fender Strat or Gibson Les Paul+ |
| Guitarist for Hell Toupee | Fender Blues DeVille = Tone Heaven |
| "Just think of our sound like |---------------------------------------
| Pink Floyd jamming with Hootie | REALITY.SYS Corrupt!!! |
| & the Blowfish at SRV's house." | Reboot Universe? (y/n) |
============================================================================

Visit the band's homepage!!! You can reach it through the homepage of our
beloved rhythm guitarist, Bemo, at http://tamos.gmu.edu/~bemo/helltoupee.html


David J. Allen

unread,
Dec 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/11/95
to
In article <4agu68$2r...@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, noo...@ibm.net says...

>
>In <4aa313$3...@oban.cc.ic.ac.uk>, Antony Scriven <ad.sc...@ic.ac.uk> writes:
>>No kidding. But back in the real world, who's parents are going to fork out
>>for a Les Paul Standard for their kid to learn the guitar?
>
>Don't laugh, I've seen it done--rich people make me sick...
>
>You can get a Fender Mexicaster for $225 nowadays. That's more for your
>money than any axe you could find in the 50s.
>

Please, make me laugh. Thanks to the "rich" people, us ordinary folks can get some
great deals on used stuff. I cannot count the number of high quality bikes I have
seen for half price because somebody "wanted to get in shape" and shelled out for a
high end bike. Two months later they get sick of ot and try to recoup the loss by
selling it to me at half price. Same goes for guitars. Find some rich sucker who
wanted to encourage the kid by buying "the best" only to have the kid lose interest
when his friend got a new Nintendo. Nine out of ten times these people don't know
shit about what they bought or the resale value.

Buy the way, has anybody ever advertized in their local paper to BUY a guitar? Maybe
some of the afore mentioned bozos would see it and think "Hey maybe I can unload this
thing on somebody" and call you.

-David Allen


peezer

unread,
Dec 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/11/95
to

>I certainly DO NOT have any idea of what is good for you. That,
>in the world of art and guitars,is a highly subjective matter and
>is too often based on your current state of financial
>affairs. My point is that you *do* get that for which you have
>paid. Cheap guitars are cheap guitars. Shop for what IS right
>for you, listen (not blindly accept) to other folks' opinions,

>develop a good relationship with your dealer and work together
>to establish a fair price, and take care of your instrument so

Hey what happend to paying sticker price like at macey's or Marshall Fields?

>that your purchase remains an investment.
>
>When you graduate college and step up to the plate to assume
>your position in the quest for your own brand of "The American
>Dream" (meaning: a real job; Don't get me wrong-I still don't
>have what I consider to be a real job-would never have one-I
>prefer the music business-thank you), let me know what
>instruments you find acceptable and also let me know their
>prices.

Then cut your best deal!

>Thanks for your kind attention,
>
>Todd L. McCagg
>


peezer


Jerry Dallal

unread,
Dec 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/11/95
to
Noo...@Lost.In.Space.With.Dr.Smith.Net (noo...@ibm.net) wrote:

: In <4aa313$3...@oban.cc.ic.ac.uk>, Antony Scriven <ad.sc...@ic.ac.uk> writes:
: >No kidding. But back in the real world, who's parents are going to fork out
: >for a Les Paul Standard for their kid to learn the guitar?

: Don't laugh, I've seen it done--rich people make me sick...

Not that I can afford to get my kids LPSs to learn on, but if I could,
why should anyone object if that's what I chose to do with my money?


Andrew Rogers

unread,
Dec 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/11/95
to
In article <4aa313$3...@oban.cc.ic.ac.uk> Antony Scriven <ad.sc...@ic.ac.uk> writes:
>> Are you sure? From my experience I would say that there is a strong lower
>> limit on instruments. You do not need a Steinway piano as a beginner but a
>> cheap Casio ``piano'' does not work. You do not want to learn guitar playing
>> on a cheap Strat clone for instance.

I would have loved to have had today's cheapest Strat clone when I was
learning to play 30 years ago. My first instrument was a "Rocket"
solid-body that was barely even playable, yet it cost my parents $75 back
then - translate that into today's dollars and you're talking at least
$300-350 (i.e., Mexi-Strat or Epiphone SG territory).

>No kidding. But back in the real world, who's parents are going to fork out
>for a Les Paul Standard for their kid to learn the guitar?

You'd be surprised... a Standard might be out of the question (don't forget,
though, they're a lot cheaper here in the US), but I know of plenty of kids
who start out on a LP Studio or an American Standard Strat.

>And anyway, I don't think that a professional quality instrument is needed to
>know whether the guitar is gonna be the instrument for you. Or to get
>enjoyment out of playing it. I just don't reckon that cheap guitars are
>as bad as people make out, that's all.

Not anymore. I was out testing entry-level guitars on the recommendation
of a friend-of-a-friend who is looking for one for her teenage son to
start out on, and was pleasantly surprised by the Yamaha Pacifica series.
The base Tele copy w/humbuckers was $US190, and the Strat copy was $US200;
you could tell where Yamaha cut production costs to bring them in at that
price point (the Tele didn't even have a pickguard), but nonetheless they
played as well as anything I own.

Andrew

Daniel Stanley

unread,
Dec 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/11/95
to
>All the guitars that I have I got for under $60.00 and that includes a
>brand new Washburn and a 1995 fender strat in mint condition. You just
>have to look in the right places at the right time and dont let yourself

>get suckerd in to crappy deals.

I hope you meant $600.00. If you did indeed mean $60, please become my
personal shopper! ;-}

David J. Allen

unread,
Dec 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/11/95
to
In article <4aafvg$i...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, baki...@aol.com says...

>
>Well, I nearly always try for a deal. At the supermarket, I ask if
>there's a "family pack" special. At Macy's, I ask if it's going on sale,
>or if I can get a discount if I also buy a pair of shoes. There's almost
>nothing I want so bad that it can't wait for a sale or for another store.
>
>My local guitar shop and I have a deal which works well for us. For an
>in-stock item, I show him Elderly's price (or Musician's Friend) and we
>add about 10% or so to that price, and I'll buy it from him. If he feels
>he can get top dollar for it, he says so, and we don't deal unless I want
>to pay his price. I buy a fair amount of stuff and he'd rather lose a
>little potential and make the sale than lose the whole sale which would be
>the case if I just went mail-order. If I request a special order, we even
>cut the 10% since it's a guaranteed sale for him.


This is the way business should be done. I do the same with anything I can
mail order. I am willing to pay more to buy locally because of the service.
If it breaks, I don't have to spend money shipping it back, etc.

I also prefer to buy locally to support my local economy. If everybody buys
mailorder, there would be no local shop to go and try things out. This does
not even account for the fact I help employ someone in my city, which
increases tax revenue, which leads to better schools and roads, on and on ad
nausem you get the point.

-David Allen


noo...@ibm.net

unread,
Dec 11, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/11/95
to
In <4aa313$3...@oban.cc.ic.ac.uk>, Antony Scriven <ad.sc...@ic.ac.uk> writes:
>No kidding. But back in the real world, who's parents are going to fork out
>for a Les Paul Standard for their kid to learn the guitar?

Don't laugh, I've seen it done--rich people make me sick...

You can get a Fender Mexicaster for $225 nowadays. That's more for your


money than any axe you could find in the 50s.

============================================================================

David N. Barnett

unread,
Dec 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/12/95
to
ffl0...@unccvm.uncc.edu (Dale Grote) wrote:


>I was corresponding with someone in Belgium who was looking around
>for a quality guitar. Before we lost touch, he was considering flying to the
>states to buy a Taylor--which would still be cheaper, flight and guitar,
>than buying something of similar quality in Europe!

Cheaper than flying to Ireland to buy a Lowden?

--dnb

SEFSTRAT

unread,
Dec 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/12/95
to


he uses marshalls and soldano's you moron, besides, he is soo whooped now
anyway!>>


Stay civil.

I saw the "balance" tour. EVH 5150s wew onstage. You're dead wrong.
SEFS...@AOL.com

Thomas F Brown

unread,
Dec 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/12/95
to
In article <4af47m$p...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> sefs...@aol.com (SEFSTRAT) writes:
><<>No...but universally, in the business and out, I have never heard his
>>integrity questioned.
>
>You haven't been around much, eh? He has admitted to endorsing
>an amp he never used. I wouldn't trust him any farther than
>I could toss Valerie.>>
>
>Which amp? The 5150? The one he uses onstage all the time?

Actually, it was an amp mod that he endorsed without ever using.
See the interview in Guitar Magazine from 1982.


John Moone

unread,
Dec 12, 1995, 3:00:00 AM12/12/95
to 74467...@compuserve.com
Yeah, but who wants a Lowden when you can have a Taylor?

Don't burn me it was meant as a flippant remark!!

As long as your pickin' it doesn't matter what you play.

Mooney

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