Stoneman Guitars -Warning about this eBayer builder/seller
Top Dog
on eBay named John Stoneman - Stoneman Guitars of Bradford PA. the solid
body Mandolin that I bought, had serious defects. He took it back, fixed
some of them half-assed and returned it to me. I didn't like it, so I
asked for a refund - even to the extent of being willing to take back only
$300 of the $450 that I gave him - Nothin' Doin'. He told me to sell it on
eBay. So, I'm doing so now. It's pretty funny in a sad sort of way if you
care to take a look. Thanks! - Buzz
"Stoneman Guitar Defective Electric Mandolin" - Item # 892284013
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=892284013
Or, if you prefer, most of what I said in my ad appears below, as well as
elsewhere on the web.
I bought a solid body mandolin in April '02 on eBay from John Stoneman of
Stoneman Guitar's. It had many defects. While some were fixed when I sent
it back to him, he ignored some of my instructions, and returned it to me
half fixed. He doesn't guarantee customer satisfaction, and won't return
my money, even though I'm extremely dissatisfied with this half-finished
instrument.
Originally I bought this mandolin in good faith, assuming it to be of
quality construction. Conversations with the builder made me feel he that
he knew what he was doing, and would stand by his product.. Too bad I'm
not covered by "Lemon Laws", because it unfortunately had the following
problems:
* No ground wire - A MAJOR omission - resulting in noisy operation
* Action way too high and unable to be lowered without 'surgery'
* Low quality, cheap tailpiece with rough, bumpy finish
* Cheap pots with crooked control knobs, one of which wobbled when turned
* Access plate not recessed into back - just screwed on over chamber
* Wrong pickup, This after-market pickup is made for a bass, not a
mandolin, and poles are unadjustable, creating an unbalanced sound that
causes some strings to be much louder than others
* Wrong strings. It came with bronze strings. which don't have good
magnetic response needed for magnetic pickups -- Steel strings would be
much more appropriate for an electric instrument
* Hard shell case was an unbelievably lousy fit - totally unuseable for
this mandolin.(Fortunately, the deal included a gig bag as well)
He seemed genuinely sorry for the defects, and said he'd fix everything
and pay for shipping both ways, Although he eventually paid for shipping,
it was for one-way only. I sent it back to him, and he fixed all but the
following:
* Action still too high and unable to be lowered without surgery
* Tone control knob still a bit crooked - wobbles a little when turned
Of course, the problems with the pickup, strings, and case remained
unfixed. Also, I asked him to install a strap button on it. He said he
wouldnąt do that, but that heąd send me a strap button, and I could
install it myself. He failed to send me this strap button, as promised.
However, the big problem -- and the reason I wanted him to take back the
mandolin and refund my money -- was the height of the action. I gave him
very specific instructions, asking him to lower the action ridiculously
low, and adjust the nut accordingly. That way I could always raise or
lower it myself, and it should still be playable at any height. He ignored
this instruction, and when I got it back from him, it was still too high
(for an electric), and couldn't be adjusted lower without taking wood off
the bridge, and possibly raising the nut, which is beyond my skill level.
By this time, I had enough, and asked him to take it back, and generously
offered to have him pay me only around $300 and I would pick up the
shipping (The original price I paid was $450 + shipping). However, he
refused any refunds, saying he didnąt guarantee his instruments.
Now I can't even stand to look at the thing, John Stoneman suggested that
I sell it on eBay if I want to recoup my losses. At this time, the
following problems remain:
* Action too high (for me)
* Funky, improper bass pickup
* Tone control knob still a bit crooked
* Access plate cover not the same shape as the routered opening
Chris Johnson
People DO go there and look around quite a bit, so it would be a very good
place to post a warning in the form of a bad (but truthful) review.
CJ
PCollen
GAWD DAMM, I LUV IT...
Top Dog
thing I didn't say in my long rant was the fact that I got a late '60s
Gibson EM-200 just recently. a pretty rare Gibson 8-string solid-body
mando. -- Sweet!
I've gotten over 800 hits on the eBay ad, and a lot of e-mails. One of
them was from someone who cancelled his contract to Stoneman for a custom
electric mando after reading the ad. It never pays to treat others badly.
IMHO.
Buzz
In article <3D2AF3D...@cfl.rr.com>, Chris Johnson
Chris Johnson
it's not a problem. They will create the listing for you.
I posted a review of a 1973 Gibson L5-S, and it was the first one they'd received
for that model. It's in the Gibson list now.
Workmanship is only half the battle. Dealing properly with your customers is
what wins or loses the war for you.
CJ
Stony
Chris, unfortunately the "story" that "Buzz" or "top dog" is telling
is far from the truth. There is a posting on my webpage that explains
the whole transaction, as well as a letter from "Buzz", admitting
there is really nothing wrong with the instrument.
I have a request in to e-bay to have the unwarrented negative feedback
removed, the false, untrue bogus add removed, as well as a request to
have Buzz, topdog, or relink2 removed as a registered e-bay user.
E-bay is currently investigating.
As far as standing behind my instruments, I fully warrantee all my
instruments and stand behind them better than anybody in the business.
There is a complete explanition of the e-bay add and our tranaction on
my website at:
<a href="http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/STONEMANGUITARS">Stoneman
Guitars</a>
Aslo, Buzz's claim of "a written order" for an instrument being
cancled because of his bogus add and claims is absolutely false!
I never had an order cancled, and in fact have sold two more
mandolins, since this guys "smear campaign".
John "Stony" Stoneman
Stony
> top...@musician.org (Top Dog) wrote in message news:<topdog-0907...@1cust76.tnt2.hilo.hi.da.uu.net>...
> GAWD DAMM, I LUV IT...
Pcollin, please read the whole, true story on my website.
at: www.angelfire.com/pa2/STONEMANGUITARS
There is a letter "top Dog" wrote to me, not knowing it was me, that
really tells the "whole story".
It's always best to know both sides of a story, before you make a
judgement.
John "Stony" Stoneman
Chris Johnson
should post a TRUTHFUL review of the product to Harmony Central. I'd
stick by that suggestion whether the instrument was perfect or perfectly horrible.
It DOES seem that he's not entirely happy with the product, and that's about all
I know and that's all I care to know.
However, I will say this: Using half a P-bass split pickup as a mandolin pickup
is probably not the best thing you could have done. It undeniably has a
cheapness factor to it. Granted, there aren't many sources for mandolin pickups,
but I think you could have done better with, say, a Gibson mini humbucker.
CJ
Bruce Morgen
Well, I wanted to read your
website -- but first it
crashed my (admittedly
ancient version of)
Netscape, and then it was
hard to get past the "BEST
INSTRUMENTS IN THE
UNIVERSE!" hypefest and all
the fourth grade spelling
errors. After waiting a
while for the "Standard
Model Page" to load (it
never really finished), I
get an eyeful of amateur
party skank model wannabes
holding what *might* be
well crafted, mostly neck-
through-body solid-body
instruments, only one of
which (the bolt-on neck
bass) was aesthetically
pleasing imo. I also
agree with Chris: half of
a P-bass pickup is a very
odd and dubious choice for
a mando -- or is this
perhaps a custom pickup
in a P-style housing?
Anyway, I've got to admire
anyone who's making a go
of it building and selling
instruments of their own
design here in the U.S.A.
-- solve the quality
problems (there's no excuse
for a broken ground wire on
a quality solid-body
instrument -- even if it's
dropped hard by UPS on its
way to Hawaii, the should
be *no* strain on that
connection and therefore no
problem) and you've got my
respect for doing your own
thing and not just cloning
the past with some minor
variations like so many
others (e.g. Sadowsky,
Suhr, Lentz) are doing!
Chris Johnson
Bruce Morgen wrote:
Nicely said, Bruce. I can agree entirely with that.
A little gentle advice to follow Bruce's:
Be professional. That means, among other things, that you should
use a spell checker or have a proofreader (a good one) go over your work
before it's published by any means. If you make the world's best instruments
but spell and use grammar like a brain-damaged first grader on crack, then
you lose points with your more educated customers, no matter HOW good
your instruments are.
Product photos should be done by a professional, and to professional standards.
They should focus on the product and should not have a distracting background.
You should not advertise yourself as a "master craftsman" or attempt to blow
your own horn too loud. Few people will believe you. The reputation of
craftsman or master craftsman is one that is earned by your hard work and
continuing improvement, and the title can ONLY be granted to you by the
general consensus of your customers and admirers of your instruments.
"Best instruments in the universe" is also a lot of totally unnecessary hype that
is going to be ignored or even scoffed at. Let your work speak for itself
and don't try to tell anyone that it's great. Let them see for themselves and
they'll make up their own minds. You don't want to get a reputation as
a bullshit artist. (As in Ed Roman.)
In general, your website doesn't do a good job of showcasing your work
or leaving a really good impression on your potential customers.
Let me show you an example of a really first rate website that has a bit
of the personal touch to it, but is absolutely a class act (as are the instruments
and as is the builder) that you should attempt to emulate:
Now, THIS is a model website for an instrument maker!
CJ
Stony
I did take your advice on some items ........and will on more in the
near future.
CJ that website is good, but let's compair apples to apples!.
First of all, I do mine completely myself, including teaching myself
HTML and most of the time updating the page late at night, after a 10
ro 12 hour day.
Hers was done by a professional web designer.
Second, (by the way I met Linda years ago several times) Her guitars
are quite different than mine.
Hers START at over 6 grand to 9 grand, while I can build a real nice
bolt on neck guitar or bass starting at $500.00 ! My bettter models go
for up to $1200-1500. I can do a 10 grand guitar with REAL inlays
that I cut myself, fiber optic side dots (any color), and gold and
silver trim, as well as the most exotic (non-endangered)highly
figured, hardwoods.
Unlike her, ALL my instruments (not including my "fender dupes") are
all hand made by me and me alone. I do not assemble pre-made parts! I
make each and every part, including the steel truss rods! I would
NEVER use a "pre cut" inlay or "pre-carved" neck, or "pre shapped"
bodies. NO part (body, necks, ect.)is in
any way "pre-made".
There are WAY too many so called "luthiers" who are buying "pre-made"
bodies, necks, fingerboards, tops, backs, sides, inlays, and putting
them together and calling them theirs.
It's only MY humble, opinion, but I call these so called "luthiers"
...."kit builders"
PS- So sue me over my spelling! LOL!
Stony!
Giri
>
> Unlike her, ALL my instruments (not including my "fender dupes") are
> all hand made by me and me alone. I do not assemble pre-made parts! I
> make each and every part, including the steel truss rods! I would
> NEVER use a "pre cut" inlay or "pre-carved" neck, or "pre shapped"
> bodies. NO part (body, necks, ect.)is in
> any way "pre-made".
>
> There are WAY too many so called "luthiers" who are buying "pre-made"
> bodies, necks, fingerboards, tops, backs, sides, inlays, and putting
> them together and calling them theirs.
>
> It's only MY humble, opinion, but I call these so called "luthiers"
> ...."kit builders"
Are you accusing Linda Manzer of being a "kit builder?"
..Giri
Chris Johnson
Stony wrote:
> Thanks Bruce and Chris for the advice!
>
> I did take your advice on some items ........and will on more in the
> near future.
That's all anyone can really ask for, to accept (hopefully) good advice
given in the spirit of cooperation. Nobody here really wants to knock
down a builder who just MIGHT have let an instrument out the door that
wasn't really ready for prime time.
>
>
> CJ that website is good, but let's compair apples to apples!.
>
> First of all, I do mine completely myself, including teaching myself
> HTML and most of the time updating the page late at night, after a 10
> ro 12 hour day.
> Hers was done by a professional web designer.
Yeah, personally I don't know web page programming at all. But if I did,
and had need to put up my own site (which MIGHT happen at some time)
then I'd seriously consider grabbing a site that looks like I want it to and
making some modifications to the contents and layout to make it my own.
>
>
> Second, (by the way I met Linda years ago several times) Her guitars
> are quite different than mine.
Yeah, I don't think she even makes solidbodies. I love her work, though,
and her website presents that work in a very professional and attractive manner.
>
>
> Hers START at over 6 grand to 9 grand, while I can build a real nice
> bolt on neck guitar or bass starting at $500.00 ! My bettter models go
> for up to $1200-1500. I can do a 10 grand guitar with REAL inlays
> that I cut myself, fiber optic side dots (any color), and gold and
> silver trim, as well as the most exotic (non-endangered)highly
> figured, hardwoods.
>
> Unlike her, ALL my instruments (not including my "fender dupes") are
> all hand made by me and me alone. I do not assemble pre-made parts! I
> make each and every part, including the steel truss rods! I would
> NEVER use a "pre cut" inlay or "pre-carved" neck, or "pre shapped"
> bodies. NO part (body, necks, ect.)is in
> any way "pre-made".
>
I have no specific knowledge that would suggest that she gets any parts
as prefabricated assemblies. But, when you are producing a small
enough amount of instruments, you have time to make everything yourself.
When you get to a certain point of demand, though, it becomes necessary
to get some parts prefabricated to your specs or you can't meet your working
schedule. For example, Bob Benedetto's Benedetto script logo in pearl, and
his inlays, are probably pre-cut to his precise specifications by a specialist
pearl cutting company. Does that in any way diminish the quality of his
guitars or the workmanship? Or is it simply a more efficient way to produce
a quality guitar in good time?
Are you saying that Linda Manzer uses assemblies in the making of her
guitars? From my conversations with her, I've never received any
such information. I'm quite sure that she selects all the woods by
herself, bends the sides, carves the tops and backs, makes the
bracing, laminates and shapes the necks, etc.
>
> There are WAY too many so called "luthiers" who are buying "pre-made"
> bodies, necks, fingerboards, tops, backs, sides, inlays, and putting
> them together and calling them theirs.
I'd agree that it's hard to call yourself a luthier if all you do is assemble
kit guitars (or other instruments), finish them, and put your name on them,
but there's a very big difference between doing that, and having some
of the small parts that require a lot of repetitive work made for you.
Not only that, but what about the use of labor saving devices? If I use
a duplicating carving machine to do the hard but mindless labor of hogging
out most of the waste from an archtop instrument's top or back, does that
reduce the value of my instruments in any way, or detract from the hand-made
qualities? I don't think so. It does allow me to spend more time on the
final carving and shaping and still meet my deadlines, so actually it can
only help to IMPROVE my workmanship, and save a lot of wear and tear on
the only pair of wrists that I'll ever have.
I'm also sure that there are SOME parts you incorporate in your instruments
that you did in fact NOT make. Do you make the tuning machines from
scratch? How about the bridge, tailpiece, pickups, wiring, and electronic
components? Do you use paint drawn from commercially available cans
and bottles, or do you actually make your own paint from scratch? Of course
not. Certainly you don't mine the iron to make the steel to use in your
truss rods, either.
It's scarcely possible to TRULY make every part yourself, unless you're making
violins. THAT is not too difficult, if you're so motivated.
Oh...let me tell you a little bit about me and my background:
I'm not a big name luthier. I'm not even a locally established name.
But I've built a few guitars over the years (since 1985, actually) and I've
done a fair amount of repair work. The past year or two I've been doing
a LOT of repair work, and on many kinds of instruments from ukuleles to
7/8 size (that's the largest size) double basses, and just about every type
of stringed instrument in between. Recently I built my first acoustic archtop
guitar. Ask for them, and I'll send you some pictures of it, to your email
address. The response to this guitar was so positive that I immediately
received two firm orders to build more of them. I've decided to make
a go of it for a living, for a while at least. I anticipate that there will
be still more guitars to be made, in time. I'm willing to give it a try,
because while it's hard work, I'd rather do hard work for me than for
somebody else, and I really love making instruments, which is something
I've never been able to say about the work in any job I've ever had.
Will I succeed? I'd like to think so. Only time will tell, and I'll have to
work hard for it to happen.
Do I make my guitars all by hand? Right now, yes, I make everything
except the tuning machines and the strings. I make the tailpieces,
I make the bridges, and the rest of the guitar starts out as planks.
In the future, I hope to be able to take some of the hard labor out of
some of the processes, though, by using a router table or shaper to
rough carve the backs of the necks, (hand carving will always be
needed to get them right, though) and I hope to complete my arch
duplicating machine in a few more weeks.
I've already estimated that when I hit my stride and have developed
my skills and techniques to the level of an established pro archtop
builder, I'll be able to, for example, run small batches of necks
and bent sides instead of just one at a time, I will be able to
completely build necks (ready to install, final fitting needed)
at the rate of three to five a day, since the time spent actually
shaping the wood is not all that much compared to the time spent in clamps
with glue drying. Now, I'm talking about building six necks in two days,
and then not building another for weeks or months. I'll be able to turn out
several sets of bent sides a day, too, when I'm running them. Installing
the blocks, kerfing and linings in the assembled sides is fairly quick work if
you have enough clamps, too. Several can be done in one day, or even
before lunch.
A spruce arched top can be fully carved in one day, maybe less. A maple back
MIGHT be a one day project, with practice. With the help of a carving
machine to do the rough work, yes, it can be done in a day.
In time and with practice, I think that it will be possible to build an archtop
guitar in a week or two, averaged out, not counting time spent in finishing, which
takes weeks to do from start to finish due to the need to let the paint dry
and cure.
In order to get appreciably faster than this, I'll either need help
or I'll have to get some work done for me by a subcontractor.
I don't really have a problem with having somebody else make
my bridges and tailpieces for me, and I might not even have
a problem with having a subcontractor join and rough carve my
top an back sets for me, either, leaving me to do the finish
carving which is where the human touch is really needed anyway.
>
>
> It's only MY humble, opinion, but I call these so called "luthiers"
> ...."kit builders"
I already covered that, a few paragraphs above.
>
>
> PS- So sue me over my spelling!
Nah. Just use your spellchecker.
Have a good one.
CJ
miker
> bodies, necks, fingerboards, tops, backs, sides, inlays, and putting
> them together and calling them theirs.
>
> It's only MY humble, opinion, but I call these so called "luthiers"
> ...."kit builders"
Fingerboards is really just an economy measure, no? And possibly higher
accuracy buying from someone with a machine set up to do it? I'd think you'd
get a better board that way than hand-measuring fret slots, hand-radiusing,
etc. And so far as inlays, I found installing an inlay to be a lot of work.
Cutting one out as well, heck, I'd go back to dots I think. :)
I agree with you so far as pre-made bodies and necks... altho with a Warmoth
Strat neck at $167, I wouldn't have much enthusiasm for making one myself.
Chris Johnson
miker wrote:
Personally, I never intend to cut my own fingerboard from stock when
I can get a pre-radiused, pre-slotted fingerboard wide enough for any
conceivable guitar neck profile for under 20 bucks, in the scale and
radius I want, and of first rate ebony or rosewood. I don't see the point
to doing it myself because there isn't any real opportunity to make a
better or more distinctive fingerboard at this level. I've got the freedom
to make the body shape in any way I want to, and the same goes for the
headstock, bridge, tailpiece, and neck profile, but the fingerboard is
very much a precision item that can't be much improved on. The best
I could hope to do would be to duplicate what I already buy for 15 bucks
each, and with no effort, time, or labor invested.
You'd almost HAVE to be nuts to make your own fingerboards if they're
profiled to a standard scale and standard radius. I appreciate the challenge,
but from an economic standpoint, I rather doubt you could make them
both better and cheaper.
CJ
Stony
> miker wrote:
>
>
> You'd almost HAVE to be nuts to make your own fingerboards if they're
> profiled to a standard scale and standard radius. I appreciate the challenge,
> but from an economic standpoint, I rather doubt you could make them
> both better and cheaper.
>
> CJ
CJ and Miker.
First of all, about fingerboards. Since I helped design and build the
"gang bang" fret slotting machine at Kramer Guitars in 1976, and then
designed and built the "Gang bang" fret slotting machine at Spector
Guitars in 1978, I easily designed and built my own that I use to
"mass produce" fingerboards. I do them in batches of 10 or 20
sometimes. My slot guide was done on a CNC milling machine and my fret
locations are acurate to within .001" (One thousinths of an inch).
Far better than what is comercially available (even Stewart
McDolnald). Not to say that others are bad, just that my fingerboards
are EXTREAMLY acurate. I like the ability to do my own from raw
boards, because I often choose certin spots in a board when I'm laying
them out. Plus I have the ability to adjust the scale legnth to almost
infinate legnths as needed. Since I do custom orders, I sometimes get
a picky customer that wants an "odd ball" scale legnth. I go down to
16 or 18 " scale legnth on my "Student Prince" models, and up to 36"
on some of my basses.
Just for your information, the slotting machine at Spector Guitars,
made the first several batches of DeMarzio replacement strat, tele,
and fender style bass necks, as well as all the Spectors, the first
several batches of Ken Smith basses (made by us, Me and Vinny Fodera
to be more exact) and the first Stienbergers (both bass and guitar).
As far as Linda goes, I knew about her years ago, so I can't speak for
what she does today. Just "crunch a few numbers" ........ She
claims about 15 to 16 instruments a year. She gets 6 to 9 grand each.
The labor involved in producing THAT many guitars that warrent a price
tag of $10,000 or even $6,000 (claimed to be all hand made "from
scratch") wouldn't really allow 15 per year. Most builders who use
pre-made "STRUCTURAL" parts, don't advertize that fact! They sometimes
(this is NOT directed at Linda) go to the end of the earth to HIDE the
fact!
CJ, as a fellow builder you can understand the hours of labor
required to build an elaborate, hand made, hand carved (including a
"hand carved" bear pattern on the neck heel) as well as hand cut
inlayed instrument. NOBODY is that fast and that good to produce 15 a
year!
I worked with Phil Petillo, who was the (heir) apprentice of Jimmy
D'Aquestio. He is also doing stuff on the order of Linda, and produces
only a handful of these guitars a year.
All I'm saying, is that there is not enough hours in a day (week) to
make 15 fine instruments a year!
IF, Linda could make only the $10,000 dollar models, and made 15 a
year, THAT would be a nice income for a luthier!
Some of us don't make any where NEAR that!
I usually avoid using forums like this because I like to avoid
"pissin' contests" .......
CJ, Would love to hear from you ......send me those photos......!
Stony
Top Dog
Thanks to anyone who has been following this controversy on this NG. I
appreciate your support, and words of encouragement. This has been an
arduous and time-consuming hassle for me. Throughout this process, all I
really wanted is a little square dealing on the part of John Stoneman. He
SAYS he stands behind his instruments 100%, yet he still has my $450+ and
I still have a Stoneman mandolin which I hate, which I will not play, and
which I, therefore, must sell - probably at a loss - to recoup my money.
I have done my level best to tell the story honestly. I admit I am angry,
because Iąve been cheated out of my money, and canąt do a damned thing
about it. As a result of this, I was forced to do what I did, and say what
Iąve said. But, what a hassle! The sheer hours of my time taken up by this
small instrument manufacturer because he doesnąt practice what he
preaches, (his words follow):
>As far as standing behind my instruments, I fully warrantee all my
>instruments and stand behind them better than anybody in the business.
&
łThe Stoneman Mandolin has a full lifetime warrantee !˛
I guess warrantee doesnąt include a refund -- just look at my eBay
feedback, and his response:
Complaint: WILL NOT REFUND! JUNK AX - MANY DEFECTS For details e-mail...
Response by j.stoneman - I never offered refund. Bent over backwards, this
guy will never be happy!
He said there is -
>a letter from "Buzz", admitting
>there is really nothing wrong with the instrument.
If anybodyąs interested they really should visit Stonemanąs page, as he
suggests, and have a look at that letter. I have a lot to say about the
mando, but not that, ł...there is really nothing wrong with the
instrument.˛
There are a few things that he gets into on that web page that are truly
amazing to read. On his own page, heąs safe from my replies. On this NG he
isnąt. I guess he didnąt want to bring some things up on this NG, because
the people here are more savvy about guitar making, and could easily shoot
holes through what he says.
Iąll try to lay this out as sensibly as I can for you.
The first big omission - mentioned in my original posting - was that the
ground wire was missing. Not broken, not loose, bur not there to begin
with, period! His response on his site is. łGround wire came loose in
shipping overseas. ł
Something may have been loose, but it certainly wasnąt the ground wire.
He conveniently has "forgotten" that he not only didnąt install it to
begin with, but, in fact, didnąt even drill the hole necessary to install
it until after he got it back from me!
Hereąs the e-mail where he admits it:
>Buzz, just to give you an update on your mando.
>I had to order the tailpiece, and bridge. And I routed the backplate in,
painted the "lip"
>and I'm letting the paint dry a few days. The ground wire was not
installed, and that
>is taken care of, and I installed different pots, so the knobs are more
concentric. I'll
>get it shipped out monday and you should have it a few days later. I'm
so sorry for
>the problems............. They are all resolved and you should really
enjoy the
>insrtument!
>John
It gets worse... far, far worse.
In the relative safety of his own web site he makes the most amazing, and
baffling, of claims. Supposedly this is just designed to make me look like
a complete jerk and save face for himself among his prospective customers.
In any case, itąs a complete fabrication about something on his mandolins
that I donąt care about - at all. I never said word #1 to him about it.
and all I can say is he is either telling a story, (I donąt call people
liars), or heąs confusing me with someone who did have this complaint.
He said,
łThe first and biggest complaint at the time, was that the łS˛ in the
peghead (my manufactures mark) was a black decal instead of a hand cut
pearl or abalone inlay. I explained that, first of all it was not
advertised as a pearl or abalone in the add, and second that I use the
pearl or abalone in my more expensive models of the mandolin. This is
łstandard˛ for most manufactures to do this. He gave me a long lecture
about how HE FELT that every instrument, regardless of the price should
have a hand cut and inlayed pearl insignia. I totally disagreed, as
nearly all stringed instruments today have or use a łdecal˛ on the
headstock. Only a small percentage of the upper models use pearl or
abalone. I then offered to put a hand cut pearl or abalone inlay in the
instrument, AT NO CHARGE if he wanted to return it to me, and I would pay
the shipping both ways.ł
Where in the world did this come from? I own a Gibson ES 125, A Fender
Tele, a Strat, a Silvertone archtop, A Montana Gibson Gospel, A Squier
P-Bass. and 2 1920ąs Gibson A-style mandolins. All of these have decals as
opposed to MOP inlays. Furthermore, when I sent him a list of the
problems, youąd think it would be #1 because of the priority he gives it
on his web site, But here is an excerpt from my e-mail to him about the
problems.
łHere's the list of all the problems.
Ground wire missing.
Action too high.
back plate not flush.
tone knob crooked.
tailpiece rough.
Case fits poorly.
I never talked with him or e-mailed him about the decal. It was not an
issue with me. It is not mentioned in my eBay ad, nor in my original
posting on this topic.
More from his web page (emphasis his):
łThen he bought up the fact that the back control compartment cover (cover
for electronics) was surface mounted instead of recessed. Again, this is
MY design choice as MOST stringed instruments have the surface mounted
covers and pickguiards and NOT the recessed cover plate. He insisted that
HE FELT the cover plate, should be recessed. At that point he said he did
not want the instrument and wanted all his money back. I told him that I
felt that I sold him an item that was what I represented, and I would make
the modifications (at NO charge) and pay shipping both ways, rather than
refund all his money. He agreed to this˛.
Amazing! You guys are luthiers. Would you agree that,
łMOST stringed instruments have the surface mounted covers and
pickguiards and NOT the recessed cover plate.˛
AND
He didnąt ever say heąd fix it a second time. and, I didnąt agree to
anything, because he never made this offer!
AND
This wasnąt the Ślast strawą, that made me ask for a refund. And, I
initially didnąt ask for a refund over the phone either. I asked for the
refund via e-mail, stating clearly that the reason I was so disappointed
was his failure to make the action low enough for electric play.
It just never ends. He goes on to make up stories about how I wanted,
ł...all (my) money returned in 24 hours˛, making it sound like I wanted it
in my hands (from Bradford, PA to Hilo Hawaii in 24 hours - no less).
łOR ELSE! ...so he hung up!˛
In fact, I gave him 24 hour to DECIDE what he was going to do and get back
to me, before I took further action. Which, as you can see, Iąve done.
What do you pro luthiers think of this statement? In his words:
łthe action is playable at less than 1/8˛ an absolute incredible feat!˛.
My newly acquired Gibson EM200 has action that is closer to 1/16˛ at the
last fret, and plays and sounds great.
And thereąs the stupid matter about the strap button. (Some of the
following is from Stoneman's site)
And the use of a P-bass pickup.
And the fact that some strings are a lot louder than others amplified.
And his defense of using bronze wound (acoustic) strings, rather than more
appropriate nickel wound (electric) strings, which could have something to
do with the unbalanced sound.
And the fact that the original tailpiece had, łtwo small, tiny łdots˛ in
the finish˛ on it. (How many are acceptable?)
And the knobs wobbling being caused by shipping. - Is that like the ground
wire becoming un-installed, and a hole becoming un-drilled in shipping?
And his underplaying how poor fitting the case was.
And his denying that he lost a sale of a custom mandolin (someone DID
e-mail me saying they backed out of a pending deal),all the while heąs
claiming that the negative publicity, in fact, generated the sale of two
additional mandolins and yada, yada, yada. Ad nauseum! Yeah, right!
I originally offered to only take back just a little over $300 for a mando
that I have now invested over $500 in. ($450 + S/H + misc.). I offered to
bend over backwards for this small instrument maker. But he wants me to
simply, łbend over˛. This I will not do.
All this - and a lot more - can be supported by e-mail, and by checking
out Stonemanąs site.
Finally, why wonąt Stoneman just own up to it and refund the money? This
is now back to $450 - the purchase price - not the previous $300 - Mr.
Good Guy offer. The minute he does so, I stop.
If a person runs a reputable business selling, say, guitar amps made by
complete strangers in Korea, and I play it for 10 minutes at his store,
and decide to buy it. Then I get it home, or use it at a gig, and it
doesnąt cut it. Now, let's say this guy is willing to take it back,
because he realizes that itąs just plain good business. He knows that
heąll lose this sale, but gain another, maybe from that same buyer. Maybe
even selling a better amp. Now, how much more important is it for a person
to stand by the work of his own hands? His own craftsmanship. His own
spirit is in the thing for goodness sake! I'm not saying that Stoneman
can't make a quality instrument, it's just that this mandolin isn't one of
them. It's a lemon. Itąs basic ethics. If a person says they stand behind
something, let him prove it by his actions. If the customer doesnąt like
it. and theyąre not satisfied with the łrepairs˛. Take the instrument
back. Refund the money. You don't like it, but you refund the money.
Thatąs a bottom line if ever I saw one.
If anybody thinks Iąm enjoying this incredible waste of time, theyąre
wrong! This has taken over 2 hours out of my Sunday evening, and is very
aggravating. In the meantime, if Stoneman does the right thing, and
refunds my money, Iąm not going to go around gloating like some łNya, nya,
nya nya, nya, I told you so˛, school kid. Iąll just call it off, and write
it off as another unpleasant experience with an unsavory individual. But,
Iąm not going to hold my breath, either. However, I donąt think he, łhas
the sand˛, (as my Grandfather used to say), to do the right thing. I have
made it clear that I have no use for this small instrument manufacturer. I
shall continue, when I have time, (Iąm retired, BTW) to use the resources
available to me to fight back. Iąve just discovered a few new ideas that
Iąll be implementing in the near future: Opening dedicated web pages,
getting highly ranked in search engines with this information, etc. If he
claims to be getting a lot more sales because of the negative feedback,
then heąll need to brace himself for the flood of orders that will be
coming in.
Thanks guys,
Buzz
