How can I emulate Billy Corgan's heavy guitar sound (Gish era)?
QH
Stratocasters (a Japanese Blue Flower and an American Standard). I am a
huge admirer of The Smashing Pumpkins guitar sound on their first album
Gish. I love the way that he manages a thick, doomy, ominous sounding
bottom end, with a screaming high end for his virtuoso, squealing
guitar solos. I have heard that this sounded the same live so it can't
be all studio tricks. If anyone can direct me towards how I can get
something approaching that, I would be grateful. Incidentally, I dont
like the guitar sound on later albums and am not interested in how he
got them. Also, I own a nice Demon practice amp currently, but entirely
understand that I need to upgrade (what does Billy use I wonder?).
Best QH
genericau...@hotmail.com
transistor fuzz pedal going into a 4x12 tube half stack with a closed
back cabinet.
marcus...@aol.com
amps he uses or what equipment generally for reasons of his own I've
noticed. Why he won't is the subject of some debate but he refuses to
be drawn on it and has ended interviews with people who won't accept
that. However post 2 there sounds like a reasonable guess for the
period in question.
Nate Najar
wb
But since it is so rare of a tone,
It is likely Billy swapped the standard
PNP to the rare NOS NPNs, occuring to
his old roadie. He also used NOS 9vdc batteries
from the 1970's to keep that vintage
Big Muff sounding.
wb
Spud Unger
> sounds like a big muff pedal to me.
>
Agent 86
>He also used NOS 9vdc batteries from the
> 1970's to keep that vintage
NOS batteries? That sounds like bullshit to me.
What's the average shelf life of a carbon-zinc 9 volt?
Considerably less than 30 years, I'd imagine.
Phil S
"Agent 86" <maxwel...@control.gov> wrote in message
news:pan.2005.08.31....@control.gov...
I think your leg is being pulled...
SSJVCmag
"Agent 86" <maxwel...@control.gov> wrote:
Yeah but the Canadian distributed DURACELLS were odd... you keep em in the
freezer. .. Pulled off the market cause they were TOO good, like those 350ci
V8 100mpg carburators...
§c©©t§
or his pull is being legged..
§c©©t§
no that was the bass player..
Agent 86
> Yeah but the Canadian distributed DURACELLS were odd... you keep em in the
> freezer. .. Pulled off the market cause they were TOO good, like those
> 350ci V8 100mpg carburators...
Well, I hope to hell they were better than those damned Canadian Oreos. A
Canadian co-worker just wouldn't-fucking-shut-up about them. Then he
FINALLY brought some down for the rest of us to try....
...Nastiest, most chemically tasting cookie I ever put in my mouth.
Anything that tastes like that is bound to cause some degree of brain
damage. It absolutely confirmed all my suspicions that the USA is planning
to take over Canada by gradually poisoning their food supply.
Agent 86
No, you're thinking of the Talking Heads.
Federico
1) Big Muff
2) Marshall head (JCM800 or MKII preferred)
3) Lots of tracks to record.
Record the same track 3 or more times, pan hardly L, C, R (hard to pan C,
hehehe)
Do not look for power tubes distortion, I know that in studio Billy Corgan
replaced the ones in his JCM800 with other with a cleaner sound.
In live he uses an Eventide too.... Simple and Smashing!
There are many articles on Internet you can refere to....
F.
"QH" <quenti...@hotmail.com> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:1125521529.5...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Jon
LMAO
RonSonic
Well, his peg wasn't lulled.
Ron
Bugsy
beyond me. This guy has shit for brains. Fuck Billy Corgan and hs guitar
sound. You should find a real guitar hero!
"Federico" <plokm...@tiscali.it> wrote in message
news:DczRe.3880$O6.2...@news3.tin.it...
jdavyd williams
Lots of folks with lots to say. BC is known for his use of the Big Muff,
sure, but if you're looking for the Gish sound, look no further than the
ADA MP1. they can be had cheapy thru ebay, so look out for one. BC said
he wrote the whole of Gish with the MP1 and can't imagine it any other way.
Federico
F.
"jdavyd williams" <js...@virginia.edu> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:df74h2$lqj$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
Jeremy Arnold
Don't listen to those here who say that Billy Corgan makes a point of
not saying what equipment he uses. He does that sometimes in
references to some songs, but he's a huge guitar geek and he likes to
talk about his gear in magazines.
His Gish sound was all recorded with a strat with a little tube preamp
straight to the board. I can't remember the model right offhand, but
it was a pretty simple setup. I think the pickups in the Strat were
stock, too. In the early days he would just plug that little preamp
straight into the PA, but that changed right after he recorded Gish.
Since Siamese Dream, and (I think) at live shows since the Gish days,
Billy plays a Fender Strat through an old Marshall JCM800 100 watt head
(he dubbed it "The Voice of God"-- and named a song on Machina after
it) that he's had slightly modified for "more headroom." I don't know
the specific model. Right after he recorded Gish, Billy also fell in
love with the sound of old Electro-Harmonix Big Muffs. While Billy and
James Iha both used a TON of other effects (especially flange and
chorus in Billy's case, and James would work a mean whammy when he felt
like it), the basics of Billy's sound from Siamese Dream through Adore
is a Fender Strat (tuned 1/2 a step down) through a Big Muff into the
Marshall. James Iha preferred some type of Gibson (either a Flying V
or a Les Paul) with various fuzz pedals (he was using the
now-discontinued Boss FZ-2 for a while) through a Marshall of his own.
Now, sorting out all the different things on their pedalboards would be
another matter.
Another key element of Billy's sound, post-Gish, were the Fender Lace
Sensor pickups he installed on his favorite strats. First it was just
a "red" one in the bridge, which is where he gets that
thinned-but-sustaining-all-day, trebly solo sound of his. That was for
Siamese Dream. Then, just before making Mellon Collie he bought a
"blue" one for the neck (which is why his rhythm parts and cording got
a lot thicker and bassier-- he loved the bottom end of blue lace
sensors), and a "silver" one for the middle (he used it for clean
sounds).
If you want to sound like Billy on those albums, you will need to buy a
Big Muff. That's the biggest part of that thick, fuzzed out sound he
had. With a strat and a Big Muff, you can "emulate" that sound through
about any amp.
For Machina, Billy radically changed his setup again. He started
playing a Fender Mexican Tele a lot on stage, and much of the album was
recorded with a special "C-tuned" guitar he had custom built for better
intonation at such extremely downtuned. He still used the Marshall,
but a lot of stuff on that album and the subsequent tour were done with
a 275 watt Marshall Valvestate (solid state) amp. Between Adore and
Machina Billy also had one of his Big Muffs modded for a little more
gain and clarity. If you feel like spending over $200 on a distortion
pedal, you too can buy a Creamy Dreamer.
I wish I could be more help about the Gish sound, but if you want to
sound like Billy on the stuff that came after, just buy a $50 Big Muff,
tune your guitar a half-step down, and riff away. The pickups and amp
were a part of that sound, but you don't NEED them to get close.
Jeremy
Jeremy Arnold
It was a Big Muff. Siamese Dream is probably the most "Big Muff" album
ever recorded. Even more than Mudhoney's "SuperFuzz/BigMuff."
Musiciansfriend should just throw up some samples of "Hummer" when they
try to sell Big Muffs.
Jeremy
Jeremy Arnold
justs the ADA MP1 straight into the board. I don't think he ever used
it much once he got the Marshall. Then he got the Big Muff and found
the sound the Pumpkins were known for.
But yeah, Gish was just a Fender Strat through the MP1. Easy to cop if
you can find one.
Jeremy
jdavyd williams
> QH wrote:
> His Gish sound was all recorded with a strat with a little tube preamp
> straight to the board. I can't remember the model right offhand, but
> it was a pretty simple setup. I think the pickups in the Strat were
> stock, too. In the early days he would just plug that little preamp
> straight into the PA, but that changed right after he recorded Gish.
>
interesting, i'd love to see your source on that info. until the recent
Future Embrace tour i have always seen an Amp on stage when he's
playing. even back to the marked, there was always some sort of amp.
never known that he's gone straight to the PA.
> Since Siamese Dream, and (I think) at live shows since the Gish days,
> Billy plays a Fender Strat through an old Marshall JCM800 100 watt head
> (he dubbed it "The Voice of God"-- and named a song on Machina after
> it)
which song?
that he's had slightly modified for "more headroom." I don't know
> the specific model.
2203 i think. the "mod" is that it was fitted with KT88 power tubes.
Right after he recorded Gish, Billy also fell in
> love with the sound of old Electro-Harmonix Big Muffs. While Billy and
> James Iha both used a TON of other effects (especially flange and
> chorus in Billy's case, and James would work a mean whammy when he felt
> like it), the basics of Billy's sound from Siamese Dream through Adore
> is a Fender Strat (tuned 1/2 a step down) through a Big Muff into the
> Marshall.
i'll concur that's the basic SD sound, but Adore? hello?
> Another key element of Billy's sound, post-Gish, were the Fender Lace
> Sensor pickups he installed on his favorite strats. First it was just
> a "red" one in the bridge, which is where he gets that
> thinned-but-sustaining-all-day, trebly solo sound of his. That was for
> Siamese Dream. Then, just before making Mellon Collie he bought a
> "blue" one for the neck (which is why his rhythm parts and cording got
> a lot thicker and bassier-- he loved the bottom end of blue lace
> sensors), and a "silver" one for the middle (he used it for clean
> sounds).
>
huh?? Really do your homework here - the lace sensor set was Always red,
silver, blue. i'm also 90% sure that these were already in use when Gish
was made.
> For Machina, Billy radically changed his setup again. He started
> playing a Fender Mexican Tele a lot on stage, and much of the album was
> recorded with a special "C-tuned" guitar he had custom built for better
> intonation at such extremely downtuned. He still used the Marshall,
> but a lot of stuff on that album and the subsequent tour were done with
> a 275 watt Marshall Valvestate (solid state) amp. Between Adore and
> Machina Billy also had one of his Big Muffs modded for a little more
> gain and clarity. If you feel like spending over $200 on a distortion
> pedal, you too can buy a Creamy Dreamer.
>
Mexican Tele? you're either really smoking crack, or i've been had by a
really bad troll.
The custom "C-tuned" was built by Reverend, but his main guitars for the
Machina tours were Gibson Les Paul Juniors. while he *did* use 3
marshall valvestate combos, that was only for the semi-distorted sounds,
the main tone came from a Diezel VH4 head that AFAIK he's still using to
this day.
wb
ratio of the two ... ;-) cheers.
Jeremy Arnold
jdavyd williams wrote:
> Jeremy Arnold wrote:
> > QH wrote:
>
> > His Gish sound was all recorded with a strat with a little tube preamp
> > straight to the board. I can't remember the model right offhand, but
> > it was a pretty simple setup. I think the pickups in the Strat were
> > stock, too. In the early days he would just plug that little preamp
> > straight into the PA, but that changed right after he recorded Gish.
> >
>
> interesting, i'd love to see your source on that info. until the recent
> Future Embrace tour i have always seen an Amp on stage when he's
> playing. even back to the marked, there was always some sort of amp.
> never known that he's gone straight to the PA.
I heard it from him in an interview. In the early days all he had was
that pre-amp. I think he might have bought the Marshall stack with the
advance from Gish, but on the album it's the ADA straight into the
board.
> > Since Siamese Dream, and (I think) at live shows since the Gish days,
> > Billy plays a Fender Strat through an old Marshall JCM800 100 watt head
> > (he dubbed it "The Voice of God"-- and named a song on Machina after
> > it)
>
> which song?
You caught me screwing up there. Shows you how much I like to that
album. But I do recall some reference to "The Voice of God" on there.
Maybe it was in one of the Machina II mp3s he leaked to the web.
> that he's had slightly modified for "more headroom." I don't know
> > the specific model.
>
> 2203 i think. the "mod" is that it was fitted with KT88 power tubes.
OK. I knew he swapped out the tubes but I couldn't remember the exact
type he used now. I think I read somewhere that he had the circuit
tweaked just a little bit, too.
> Right after he recorded Gish, Billy also fell in
> > love with the sound of old Electro-Harmonix Big Muffs. While Billy and
> > James Iha both used a TON of other effects (especially flange and
> > chorus in Billy's case, and James would work a mean whammy when he felt
> > like it), the basics of Billy's sound from Siamese Dream through Adore
> > is a Fender Strat (tuned 1/2 a step down) through a Big Muff into the
> > Marshall.
>
> i'll concur that's the basic SD sound, but Adore? hello?
OK, so Adore was a bit different sounding, but I think he still used
the same equipment on it. Maybe he brought back the ADA. I actually
haven't listened to that one in a few years. It's the one Pumpkins
album I no longer own (leant it to a friend who never gave it back).
> > Another key element of Billy's sound, post-Gish, were the Fender Lace
> > Sensor pickups he installed on his favorite strats. First it was just
> > a "red" one in the bridge, which is where he gets that
> > thinned-but-sustaining-all-day, trebly solo sound of his. That was for
> > Siamese Dream. Then, just before making Mellon Collie he bought a
> > "blue" one for the neck (which is why his rhythm parts and cording got
> > a lot thicker and bassier-- he loved the bottom end of blue lace
> > sensors), and a "silver" one for the middle (he used it for clean
> > sounds).
> >
>
> huh?? Really do your homework here - the lace sensor set was Always red,
> silver, blue. i'm also 90% sure that these were already in use when Gish
> was made.
Nope. Look at any picture of him from the Gish era. You'll see what
appear to be three stock strat pickups there. Even pics of him playing
Lollapalooza show very clearly that there's only one lace sensor in his
guitar, it's the red one in the bridge. He liked it so much he added
the other two later. I always thought the one lace sensor looked odd
besides the traditional pickups.
> > For Machina, Billy radically changed his setup again. He started
> > playing a Fender Mexican Tele a lot on stage, and much of the album was
> > recorded with a special "C-tuned" guitar he had custom built for better
> > intonation at such extremely downtuned. He still used the Marshall,
> > but a lot of stuff on that album and the subsequent tour were done with
> > a 275 watt Marshall Valvestate (solid state) amp. Between Adore and
> > Machina Billy also had one of his Big Muffs modded for a little more
> > gain and clarity. If you feel like spending over $200 on a distortion
> > pedal, you too can buy a Creamy Dreamer.
> >
>
> Mexican Tele? you're either really smoking crack, or i've been had by a
> really bad troll.
No. The Tele was mostly used live, but there are quite a few pics out
there of him in full "Uncle Fester" garb, playing a Mexican Tele
through a shitload of pedals into a Marshall Valvestate 2 X 12 combo at
shows. Look 'em up!
> The custom "C-tuned" was built by Reverend, but his main guitars for the
> Machina tours were Gibson Les Paul Juniors. while he *did* use 3
> marshall valvestate combos, that was only for the semi-distorted sounds,
> the main tone came from a Diezel VH4 head that AFAIK he's still using to
> this day.
I assumed he was still using his Marshall because his sound hasn't
changed a whole lot, but I'll defer to you on that one. I haven't seen
him much since the SP broke up, and I know he played quite a few Les
Paul Juniors, but there are a lot of pics of him playing a midnight
blue Mexican Tele on that tour. Maybe he just used it at a few shows,
but it was enough for one of the guitar magazines (Guitar World?) to
comment on how he now preferred it to his Strats. As for the
Valvestates, I know he used them for that supersludgy, way-over-the-top
distortion sound on Heavy Metal Machine and Everlasting Gaze, as well
as a few other tracks. I thought he used them for the same thing live,
as well.
Jeremy
jdavyd williams
> Nope. Look at any picture of him from the Gish era. You'll see what
> appear to be three stock strat pickups there. Even pics of him playing
> Lollapalooza show very clearly that there's only one lace sensor in his
> guitar, it's the red one in the bridge. He liked it so much he added
> the other two later. I always thought the one lace sensor looked odd
> besides the traditional pickups.
>
>
i went out looking, and wouldn't ya know it - you're right. that bridge
pickup does look odd next to the other 2 pickups. hehe.
>
> No. The Tele was mostly used live, but there are quite a few pics out
> there of him in full "Uncle Fester" garb, playing a Mexican Tele
> through a shitload of pedals into a Marshall Valvestate 2 X 12 combo at
> shows. Look 'em up!
>
i have seriously *never* seen this. can you track down a photo and send
me the link?
QH
I have a few additional questions though.
Regarding the ADA MP1, I am not familiar with this at all. Is there a
preset on this that is close to the dense, distorted, Gish sound?
Which Big Muff does Billy use? The NYC re-issue or the original Russian
model.
Also, I am an owner of two Strats and a fuzz pedal. I know the
Stratocaster is not the most powerful guitar in the world, and no
matter how much distortion \ gain \ middle\ bass I put through it, it
always sounds thin in comparison with my Washburn which has a
humbucker. Is a Strat going through a JCM800 in combination a Big Muff
really enough to get such a thick, doomy yet crunchy sound?
What I loved about the Gish album sound is that it seemed to cover so
many bases i.e. sinister Iommi style density at the bottom end, with
squealing, classic rock sounding high end leads at the top. It was
great that he got that doom sound without Death Metal style sludge, and
still retained 70's style crunch you find used by melodic rockers
like Thin Lizzy etc. I really cant stand the majority of post 70's
heavy rock guitar, which is horribly sterile and soulless.
jdavyd williams
> Regarding the ADA MP1, I am not familiar with this at all. Is there a
> preset on this that is close to the dense, distorted, Gish sound?
>
hrm, you may want to search around on the web, but i don't know that
anyones ever really documented it. i used to have a MP1, and for all
their parameters they are actually pretty easy to use. if you can find
one, try it out.
> Which Big Muff does Billy use? The NYC re-issue or the original Russian
> model.
>
neither, he used a Vintage model. in my opinion your better off with the
NYC version.
> Also, I am an owner of two Strats and a fuzz pedal. I know the
> Stratocaster is not the most powerful guitar in the world, and no
> matter how much distortion \ gain \ middle\ bass I put through it, it
> always sounds thin in comparison with my Washburn which has a
> humbucker. Is a Strat going through a JCM800 in combination a Big Muff
> really enough to get such a thick, doomy yet crunchy sound?
>
another thing to remember is that he wasn't using stock pickups. i am of
the mind that one of the keys to that sound is that the fender lace
pickups were not full size humbuckers, so if you can't find the lace
pickups keep your eye on other single-sized humbuckers from seymour
duncan, dimarzio, etc.
Federico
one Billy uses on stage...
F.
"jdavyd williams" <js...@virginia.edu> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:df9bu7$3ps$1...@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
Blast Off!
>I am a struggling amateur guitar player, and own two Fender
>Stratocasters (a Japanese Blue Flower and an American Standard). I am a
>huge admirer of The Smashing Pumpkins guitar sound on their first album
>Gish. I love the way that he manages a thick, doomy, ominous sounding
>bottom end, with a screaming high end for his virtuoso, squealing
>guitar solos. I have heard that this sounded the same live so it can't
>be all studio tricks. If anyone can direct me towards how I can get
>something approaching that, I would be grateful. Incidentally, I dont
>like the guitar sound on later albums and am not interested in how he
>got them. Also, I own a nice Demon practice amp currently, but entirely
>understand that I need to upgrade (what does Billy use I wonder?).
>
>Best QH
You need a heavy guitar like a les paul, the copies tend to be
heavier. Add lead for extra ommph.....Sorry, i mean what everyone else
said!
Jeremy Arnold
from the 70s or 80s. The Black Russian ones will get you close, too.
Avoid the older green russian ones, though. Pieces of crap. You can
get a convincing Pumpkins rhythm sound with just a Strat neck pickup
and a Big Muff into about any amp. Just don't forget to tune it down
and keep the volume knob up a bit. You can play around with the first
tone knob some. Switch to the bridge for the solos. Remember that
Billy would lay tons of overdubs onto about every studio recording, so
don't get upset if your guitar doesn't sound as full as his did.
As far as the heavy bottom end...one of the things about the Big Muff
is that it compresses your sound and shaves off some treble. That
makes the bass sound a lot thicker and makes the notes feel like they
go on forever, all with creamy mids intact that soar out of the guitar.
The blue lace sensor Billy started using as a neck pickup on Mellon
Collie did more of the same thing, making the bass even bigger. In
those days Billy was always looking for ways to get more bass and more
gain. I recall reading a few different interviews where he said he
loved the blue lace sensor in the neck because it gave a strat the
bottom end of an SG and helds up really well under lots of gain.
Lace sensors are NOT humbuckers, though. Instead, they're very unique,
"low-noise single coils" (read "you won't hear any hum but it's
technically not a humbucker"). A single-coil sized humbucker won't
give you the same sound. And I still think that on Gish it was just a
stock Strat neck pickup straight through the ADA, with some compression
thrown on in the studio to tighten the sound up. Later the Big Muff
and Marshall did the same kinda thing for him.
James Iha's rhythm guitars were almost always Gibsons of some kind,
though. That helped make the sound quite a bit fuller. Billy's strat
guitar tones could be a little thin at times ("Bullet With Butterfly
Wings" is a good example).
Jeremy
Heat Sink
I thought his tone was all about the Harmonizer first, other effects 2nd?
Jeremy Arnold
doesn't use a harmonizer all that much. Though he always has
overdubbed the hell out of his guitar parts.
Jeremy