What's the deal with PRS?
Dick Onstenk
brand. Today, for the first time I visited their website and searched on
Ebay. I saw a 1986 model and really had no idea thet have been around so
long.
The first thing that strikes me are the prices. They are very, very
expensive. So how do they compare to Gibson? Are they that much better?
What's the deal?
I am not that crazy about their generic model - but the woods look great,
granted - you know the one based on a Strat that you see in all kinds of
types and configurations, though I must admit I like the PRS Carlos Santana
a lot (but that's maybe because that particular model resembles my Hamer so
it simply has a different shape). Esthetically speaking, I don't find them
particularly appealing but that's personal of course.
I noticed they even have hollow bodies with carved tops and even one with a
full sized body, weird enough in the same generic PRS shape. How are these
for Jazz?
The only PRS I have heard in a Jazz context was Mark Kleinhaut's at the
Crow. It sounded more like a solid body than an archtop but fine in its own
right. Was that a hollow body Mark? I think it had an F-hole.
Basically what I want to know I guess if the high prices justify their
quality? Are they that much better than Gibson and Hamer etc?
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Scott McLoughlin
Tom Anderson, Brian Moore, G&L, etc. Story goes....
Gibson and Fender began to make (perceived) crappy instruments, so a new
breed of boutique builders offered fine alternatives, usually at a premium.
Some were in the Gibson style camp and others in the Fender style camp.
There was alot of cross over, as well. The various builders added some nice
innovations and options - tummy cuts, arm contours, lighter weight mahogany
instruments, 25" F/G compromise scale, splitable humbuckers for a credible
F/G compromise axe, HSH etc. configurations, different pup switching
systems, mahog/maple instruments with bolt-on necks, short or tapered neck
heels, ostensibly careful wood selection, really attractive flame maple
tops, different trem systems, bridge design innovations, cool finish options
(trans blue, green, etc.), and on and on and on.
A common theme with all of these builders seemed to be great build quality,
superior quality control, and stellar neck/fret work compared to the two
dominant brands.
Many had and still have smaller production runs than F/G. Tom Andersons
still have the manufature date as the serial number because they make so few
instruments! I have a Cobra and still get a kick out of that.
Hamer and G&L took the "better but still cost effective" route. Many would
place their instruments in the "great bargains of guitar history" category
:-) Others took the pricing "high road," charging very nice premiums for
their innovations and build quality TLC.
PRS grabbed the greatest "mind share" of all these circa-80's builders. I've
read somewhere accounts of their rabid pursuit of popular bands' guitarists,
giving them their guitars in the hopes they would use them and so forth.
Santana was a key business coup, but their endorser list is just huge. Great
business sense.
Of course, giving away tons of guitars to tomorrow's Top-40 set does no good
if you don't make a pretty damn good guitar (tastes will vary, but you get
my point). Good marketing often works best with a good product :-)
Through what I am sure is a whole host of financial, marketing, engineering
and operations best practices, PRS has been able to actually rapidly
(relatively speaking) expand their volume and market share while holding
onto their premium pricing strategy - Harvard Business School should do a
case study :-) This is not mean feat in any business.
I've never bought a PRS (I'm a Hamer fan), but sampled many. Very playable
instruments that feel great in the hands. New ones seem to always have spot
on setups in the stores, etc. Can't speak to the tones. Nothing stands out
memory wise.
There are alot of good guitars, but not so many good guitar making
companies. IMHO, G&L wisely focused on being a better-than-Fender
alternative. Hamer built way too broad a product line (still great guitars),
dove in way too deep into the "hair band" brand identity, and had to
radically pare down their offerings. They would have done better to have
stuck to a "better than Gibson at a better price" type of focus. Again,
IMHO.
PRS managed to carefully carve out their own thing. Pretty impressive.
Scott
--
Scott McLoughlin, Chairman
The Adrenaline Group, Inc.
"Dick Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:b11epk$t3sjh$1...@ID-105352.news.dfncis.de...
Mike O'Malley
who claim to have known Paul Read Smith when he was starting out. He
really did build a huge business from nothing. The guitars are
beautiful. He was very aggressive about getting them into the hands of
some prominent players, especially carlos santana--more power to him
That being said, i've never played one that did a thing for me. Don't
know why exactly. One of the nicknames you hear for them around this
area is "lawyer guitars"--that they look great but don't really play
all that well. All that flamey maple does nothing for the tone, but it
does look neat and add cost. I've never really liked les pauls either,
so maybe my opinion isn't worth much.
I know many people like them, but i've never seen one that lit my
fire. If i'm going to play a solid body, I'd rather play a telecaster
any day
LarryV
have a lot of options like a "10" top of flamed maple, the PRS bird
inlays, different neck and pickup options. That said, I've owned two
PRS guitars, an early 1987/88 Custom 24, and a 94 Custom 24. These
guitars have a rotary pickup selector switch that provides a mix of
single coil and humbucker settings, but is rather awkward to use on
the fly. PRS's have a fairly distinct sound, sort of a more nasally
voice. When I got my Gibson Howard Roberts Fusion, my PRS went on sale
within less than 2 weeks. The difference in tone between the two
guitars was really an eye opener for me. I have to say though that I
regret having sold my earlier model, it had a pretty unique voice that
I've come to miss. You can pick up a used PRS for a pretty reasonable
price actually, unless it's a tricked out model with a lot of inlays,
and made from private stock. There's some tunes at my Soundclick site
that were recorded on my earlier PRS with a slightly distorted tone.
Blue Dream, Bocea, and Second Chance were all recorded with my old PRS
back in the late 80's early 90's. You can listen to them at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/larryvigneaultmusic.htm if you so
desire.
They also have a different scale - they use a 25" scale which is in
between a Gibson and Fender. I will say though that despite having
owned two and sold them both, I am jonesing for another PRS to keep my
Gibson company. But I would probably by a Custom 22 or a McCarty. The
pickups are spaced more like a Les Paul on the 22 fret models, and
they sound fatter. The McCarty also uses a toggle switch instead of
the rotary selector switch. For jazz, you can get a decent jazz tone,
but they will still sound like a solid body, it's just the nature of
the beast. I had a hard time getting a really good tone from my second
PRS, and I kept thinking it was my amp. But when I got my Gibson and
plugged it in, I knew right away it was the guitar and not the amp.
Cheers - Larry
"Dick Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message news:<b11epk$t3sjh$1...@ID-105352.news.dfncis.de>...
Ted Vieira
is incredibly smooth and low. You can switch between double and single coil
sounds. I'll use this guitar as my main axe for funk/R&B and jazz gigs and
I'm really happy with it. The craftsmanship is excellent. It plays
wonderfully, and I really like the balance and feel of it. Very glad I got
it.
Ted Vieira
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
http://TedVieira.com
Bio Info, Free Online Guitar Instruction,
Instructional Books, Articles, hear my CDs and more...
--
Warm jazz guitar combined with latin & funk:
Check out my CD, "Perfect Night"
at: http://TedVieira.com/sounds.html
_/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/ _/
icarusi
news:tBYY9.15453$zF6.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net..
.
> PRS grabbed the greatest "mind share" of all these circa-80's
builders. I've
> read somewhere accounts of their rabid pursuit of popular
bands' guitarists,
> giving them their guitars in the hopes they would use them and
so forth.
> Santana was a key business coup, but their endorser list is
just huge. Great
> business sense.
That was a coup, as Yamaha had recently got him to endorse their
signature range after getting him to change from Gibson. The only
other name endorsee I heard at the time was Gary Moore, but their
visibility seems to have skyrocketed in the last decade at the
expense of the previous pointy shredmaschines.
They do appeal to ex LP players and Strat players, having some
apects of both. The quality seems to be high, but so is the price
and the availability is good. It all seems suspiciously too good
to be true. I suppose they got the basic design right very early,
for those who prefer it, and haven't changed it much, like all
classics. So the PRS is probably the first solid electric guitar
lassic of last quarter century. It's also being cloned to the
gills, which is another sign.
Icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
Dick Onstenk
Ha! And what about my 1977 Hamer Sunburst? I have seen that model copied
both by PRS (They call it the "Santana") and Gibson. Have a look. The PRS
Santana is simply a copy of the Hamer Sunburst. Or at least so it appears to
me.
I'd love to think that my Hamer is a classic American guitar ...
Dick
Mark Kleinhaut
Hi Dick, my PRS is the "Hollowbody" model, which is really more like an ES335
that an archtop or a solid body. It does have a carved maple top which is
set on a mahogany back/side that was routed out of a single block of wood.
In the routing process, they leave a soundpost that comes up right under
the bridge (so back, sides and soundpost are all from a single piece of wood).
I don't know of any other guitar made this way.
Does it sound as good as my Bourgois? I think it does, though it is obviously
a different sound. I got guitar because I was playing alot with drums and
horns and I basically got sick and tired of always fighting with feedback
and the resultant thin tone from backing off the lows. I wanted to focus
on playing music and not continually screwing around with the rig.
So here's what I personally find appealing about the PRS.
1. It never feeds back.....ever!
2. Tone is incredibly consistent regardless of room acoustics. Even when
I had to borrow amps in Europe, I could still find "my" sound easily and
get right down to the business of playing.
3. It weighs just under 5 Lbs. That's right, kids, it's truly light as a
feather.
4. It's small body size makes for easy travel on airplanes overhead bins.
5. The 25" scale and relatively narrow neck are really easy on the hands.
I can do much more left hand reaching with this guitar than anything else
I've ever owned. Remember Holger saying "It's too easy to play"?
6. Cost is relative, but I bought mine used for $2,400 and it's been worth
every cent.
I can't recall if you played my guitar when I was visiting or if you even
got a good look at, but the build quality is really top notch. It may not
be everyones asthetic cup of tea (hey, I owned a Barney Kessel for 13 years-
considered by some to be the ugliest guitar Gibson ever made:)) but the guitar
is undeniably very well made.
We're just getting going with mixing on my new CD with Bobby Watson and so
far I think the PRS is sounding great in the control room. I guess in a
few months we'll hear what the critics have to say:)
--------------------Mark Kleinhaut
markkl...@hotmail.com
Info and soundclips about:
"Chasing Tales":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Chasing%20Tales.html
"Amphora":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
"Secrets of Three": http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html
Dick Onstenk
I regret not having taken a closer look at your guitar or having played it.
My interest in guitars like that is very recent ....
I listened to the Crow recordings yesterday and I must admit the sound is
fine, maybe not archtop like but fine nonetheless. That was a great concert
Mark. Have you played back the CD? Are you happy with it?
I originally thought you only brought it due to air travelling but obviously
that guitar is a lot more to you. I agree, it's just a different sound and
one which works out for you. Lately I have been playing my Hamer a lot
(solid body) and I love it. It doesn't sound like an archtop at all but it
works.
Dick
thom_j.
"icarusi" <icar...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b13cp6$f98$4...@news8.svr.pol.co.uk...
LoL..Icarusi... Anymore I think cloning to the gills is putting it
mildly :^) Everytime I look, there's another maker out trying to
grab some of the PRS market. PRS must be doing something
correct...eh? ;^) cheers thom_j.
P.S. I just love my Lefty 24fret Dillion PRS clone :^)
thom_j.
Hamer doesnt have the body style of the PRS... Does it? To
me I thought it leaned more toward a less wildly cut SG, no?
tia.. thom_j.
"Dick Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:b13d4e$v7fno$1...@ID-105352.news.dfncis.de...
thom_j.
"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3e35...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com...
Mark K, I have been to the PRS shop when they first opened
and I had $dinero$ begging them to make a "Lefty" for me at
any $price on my end, but sadly now I don't have this luxory
anymore. I feel everything you stated above is spot'on, and I
know Ted V will agree too! Uncle Mark will ya buy me a left
handed PRS McCarty.. pleasssssssse? :^)
cheers ur wittle nephew tee'jay..
Dick Onstenk
I recently posted some new pics of the guitar at the Hamer fanclub site.
Just click:
http://www.hamerfanclub.com/dcforum/DCForumID1/3488.html#23
No, my Hamer does not resemble the standard PRS model, but I do think their
Santana Model (which is different) looks suspiciously similar to my Hamer.
Dick
"thom_j." <thom_...@yahoo.com> schreef in bericht
news:mfGcnSSlu64...@comcast.com...
Mark Kleinhaut
"Dick Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote:
>Hey Mark,
>
>I regret not having taken a closer look at your guitar or having played
it.
>My interest in guitars like that is very recent ....
>
>I listened to the Crow recordings yesterday and I must admit the sound is
>fine, maybe not archtop like but fine nonetheless. That was a great concert
>Mark. Have you played back the CD? Are you happy with it?
>
>I originally thought you only brought it due to air travelling but obviously
>that guitar is a lot more to you. I agree, it's just a different sound and
>one which works out for you. Lately I have been playing my Hamer a lot
>(solid body) and I love it. It doesn't sound like an archtop at all but
it
>works.
>
>Dick
>
I have listened several times to those recordings and I really like the guitar
sound. We were playing quite softly, so the acoustic sound of the guitar
(yes, it does have some) got picked up by the single streo mic along with
the amp. To my ear, that blend can make all the difference.
In the studio, we mic the guitar to get some of that available in the mix.
If you put lots of that in the mix, you can actually get it to sound more
like an archtop than a semi.
Jonathan Giblin
terrific instrument. It ain't a full-bodied archtop and anyone
expecting it to be that is liable to be disappointed, but given what
it is, it certainly has many endearing attributes.
What Mark said about no feedback is absolutely true. It's a guitar you
can take to any gig and not have to worry about feedback or sound or
anything else. I would add that it's a remarkably versataile
instrument. If you're playing a gig where you're never sure what your
next song is gonna be, this is just the ticket. I'd also add that
these guitars sustain all day. I've never played another instrument
with as much natural sustain as a PRS. At high volume you can get this
wonderful controlled sustain thing going (a la Santana) where the
guitar really sings. Still, there's never, ever any uncontrolled
feedback.
Now, after gushing over the guitar I have to admit that it doesn't do
everything. No guitar does. There are still situations where only a
Strat will do. And in a nice quiet straight-ahead jazz situation,
there's no substitute for a nice, full-size archtop. But if you're
playing in a loud rhythm section or need something that will cover a
variety of styles and sounds, the PRS is tough to beat.
"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3e35...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com>...
thom_j.
have a clear visual in my mind when I typed the other post about
your Hamer.. I can see where it does look like a PRS a bit..
I guess since we have so many in my area, and I'm not far from
their factory (+ SamAsh has wall of them lined up) I've drooled
over these PRS "super high priced guitars" for a 2plus decades
now... I do think, sadly, I basically know each model too damn
well..lol The lefties are even more expensive!
Your Hamer has the basic bout & the horns are similar but you
if ever get the opportunity to view these 'high end' PRS Guitars
you will see they look almost sculpted by an artist on the entire
body and not over done. They are real beauties..imho.
Are they the best playing or sounding? This is really subjective
but they will never replace a full body archtop' for mellow jazz
sound, again..imho but I just like'em!! Can ya tell? :^)
cheers, a drooling tee'jay
"Dick Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message
news:b13jv3$u90og$1...@ID-105352.news.dfncis.de...
thomas
>
> considered by some to be the ugliest guitar Gibson ever made
Uglier than the Trini Lopez? I think not.
HotchkissTrio
90's Hamer Sunburst on closeout, and I passed it up like a fool! I
thought I already had to many guitars. I wish I had bought it and
sold some of my other gear. It looked just like your guitar but
without binding.
I think the Santana is totally a copy of the Hamer sunburst, and
beside the longer upper horn, the standard PRS is actually very
similar as well. In fact, the standard PRS body is almost identical
to the Hamer "studio" models with the arched-tops.
Personally I prefer Hamers for the price and design. PRS has switched
to a nasty gigantic neck heel design for no good reason. Hamers have
a really nice neck joint that is small and comfy.
-Paul H.
"Dick Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote in message news:<b13jv3$u90og$1...@ID-105352.news.dfncis.de>...
icarusi
> > So the PRS is probably the first solid electric guitar
> > classic of last quarter century.
>
> Ha! And what about my 1977 Hamer Sunburst? I have seen that
model copied
> both by PRS (They call it the "Santana") and Gibson. Have a
look. The PRS
> Santana is simply a copy of the Hamer Sunburst. Or at least so
it appears to
> me.
>
> I'd love to think that my Hamer is a classic American guitar
...
The Santana model isn't the 'usual' PRS 'classic' shape though.
The PRS Santana, Yamaha SG2000 series, Hamer, Travis Bean and
Ibanez Artist all have similar shapes and (the PRS apart) all
appeared around the same time, presumably for similar reasons.
Greger Hoel
wrote:
>The Santana model isn't the 'usual' PRS 'classic' shape though.
>The PRS Santana, Yamaha SG2000 series, Hamer, Travis Bean and
>Ibanez Artist all have similar shapes and (the PRS apart) all
>appeared around the same time, presumably for similar reasons.
The Santana model has a shorter scale lenght. Like 22 1/2" or sumpin.
Greger
______________________________________________
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George4908
>I think the Santana is totally a copy of the Hamer sunburst.
Actually, both of those shapes were derived from the slab board Gibson LP
Special from the 1950s. The first guitar Paul Smith built as a school project
in the '70s was the same basic shape; this would have been before Hamer went
into production with the Sunburst model. But Hamer brough the Sunburst to
market before PRS brought out the Santana model. Ironically, Gibson's
relatively recent Les Paul Double Cutaway goes back to the same basic shape of
the LP Special, but adds in the carved top as on the Hamer and PRS models.
Everything old is new again, eh?
> PRS has switched
>to a nasty gigantic neck heel design for no good reason.
Actually, there was a very practical reason. Increased mass at the heel
increases stiffness of the neck and eliminates dead spots. It's makes for a
more stable, better playing and sounding guitar.
Whether it's nasty and gigantic or not is up the player to decide. I've had
both, and have absolutely no problems with the larger heel. A lot of this
"heel from hell" hype is due to Ed Roman, a disgruntled and discredited dealer
who had, then lost, a PRS concession after he was repreatedly caught retopping
and reconfiguring PRS guitars and selling them as new.
thom_j.
"Greger Hoel" <gre...@spamblock.net> wrote in message
news:7dnb3v8g8606remhd...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 27 Jan 2003 21:41:23 -0000, "icarusi" <icar...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >The Santana model isn't the 'usual' PRS 'classic' shape though.
> >The PRS Santana, Yamaha SG2000 series, Hamer, Travis Bean and
> >Ibanez Artist all have similar shapes and (the PRS apart) all
> >appeared around the same time, presumably for similar reasons.
>
> The Santana model has a shorter scale lenght. Like 22 1/2" or sumpin.
>
> Greger
Santana II & III have 24.5" scale length... cheers thom_j.
icarusi
news:20030127220837...@mb-ca.aol.com...
> Actually, there was a very practical reason. Increased mass at the
heel
> increases stiffness of the neck and eliminates dead spots. It's
makes for a
> more stable, better playing and sounding guitar.
The transition between the normal neck profile and the extended heel
seems badly designed, even if it does eliminate some of the problems.
Randy Graves
Jurupari
Me either - wonder why they didn't use it for the Jesus With Camels Guitar in a
nice crushed black velour sunburst?
OT - saw Santana with his PRS on Leno last nite. Heard him, too.
The Trini was a dog imo but so were SG's to my eye - Also, I distinctly
remember a Mark Kleinhaut Promo photo where he's wrapped around his Barney
Kessel.....
....kinda reminded me of Steve Dallas and Bill the Cat....
(Sorry, Mark, I didn't mean it! :o)
Clif
tomw
juru...@aol.com says...
> >> Uglier than the Trini Lopez? I think not.
>
> Me either - wonder why they didn't use it for the Jesus With Camels Guitar in a
> nice crushed black velour sunburst?
>
> OT - saw Santana with his PRS on Leno last nite. Heard him, too.
>
They sounded good as always. Looked like he was playing a PRS, but not
the Santana PRS. It was mostly working class folks at this party,
ranging in age from early 30s to 60, and Santana starts playing and
everybody stops talking, "It's Carlos!" Pretty good recognition for a
damn guitar player.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Dan Adler
Mark,
Personally, I like your sound on 'Secrets of Three' best. Is that the Bourgois?
Mark Kleinhaut
d...@danadler.com (Dan Adler) wrote:
>"Mark Kleinhaut" <markkl...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<3e35...@spamkiller.newsgroups.com>...
>> Does it sound as good as my Bourgois? I think it does, though it is
>
>Mark,
>
>Personally, I like your sound on 'Secrets of Three' best. Is that the Bourgois?
>
Yes, but I also used it on Chasing Tales so there shouldn't be that big of
a difference. The new CD in the works will be the first time recording
with the PRS in a studio. I'm also using the Boss GT-6 for the first time
on a CD... two tracks have chorus and one track even has (gasp) overdrive.
I fully expect to lose the three or four fans I now have once they hear
this:)
--------------------Mark Kleinhaut
markkl...@hotmail.com
Info and soundclips about:
"Chasing Tales":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Chasing%20Tales.html
"Amphora":
http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/Amphora.html
"Secrets of Three": http://www.invisiblemusicrecords.com/Resources/SO3.html
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