Who did Charlie Christian copy?
guitarannie
Who did these guys copy?
Wes Montgomery
Tal Farlow
Django Reinhardt
Joe Pass
Johnny Smith
Kenny Burrell
Lenny Breau
Chet Atkins
My Dad
Al Viola
Les Paul
Actually there is a pretty big list but these are just a few
So who do you sound like? You?
pmfan57
CC learned from Lester Young and Django Reinhardt (he knew some of
Django's solos note for note) to name two confirmed examples. Other
probably influences were Hawk, Eldridge and others on the scene.
Les Paul was also from Django.
Django? Good question. Eddie Lang and Louis Armstrong is my best
estimation.
southtexasguitarist
CC hung out with Eddie Durham and especially T-Bone Walker, so there
was likely some cross pollination going on. I read an anecdote by a CC
bandmate from the Benny Goodman days who said CC took a portable
record player with him on the band bus and spent hours listening to
records and singing along, particularly those of Basie with Lester
Young. Tal Farlow and Wes Montgomery have both stated very openly that
they copied CC note-for-note - in fact Wes said he could play nothing
else for a time. Farlow also mentioned copying Lester and Art Tatum
for the harmonic techniques.
I'm not sure what you're getting at. I sound like me, and I think
anyone who has listened to my records for any length of time could
identify me in a blindfold test, but I certainly couldn't have done it
without CC, Pass, Wes, Pat Martino, and a lot of others.
Clay Moore
guitarannie
>
> I'm not sure what you're getting at. I sound like me, and I think
> anyone who has listened to my records for any length of time could
> identify me in a blindfold test, but I certainly couldn't have done it
> without CC, Pass, Wes, Pat Martino, and a lot of others.
> Clay Moore
I'm not getting at anything in particular.
I like Chick Corea. I used to copy him a bit.
I love Django and years ago when I was playing in the "Nuages Trio"
people told me I sounded like Django.
So I sat down with his records and discovered that I played NONE of
his licks. I think what people heard was a feeling of wild
abandonment. With a little crazy. Humor and such in the music
My influences are all the music I've played and heard but not
Guitarists per se. Part of that was intentional being part of the
'70's "free Jazz" thing.
Plus My dad played with Benny so he was the only guitarist I new of
had heard until he turned me on to Johhny Smith and Segovia.
In 1968, Ted Greene taught at our guitar store/studio for a bit and he
gave me one lesson on how to do a 3 finger bend and a couple of BB
king licks.
Then he told me not to get into copying too much.
Joe Finn
news:486da45f-297f-4102...@z27g2000prz.googlegroups.com...
I think it's hard not to copy somebody at some point in your development.
You can hear echoes of the older players in lots of the younger ones. This
speaks to the importance of listening and to the riches of the tradition in
general.
What you describe happened to me once too. Somebody was congratulating me
after a concert and telling me how much I sounded like a particular
guitarist. This happened to be a guitarist that I don't particularly care
for and seldom if ever listen to at all. It was probably the only thing they
could think to say and they were just trying to be nice. There are times
when you simply accept the spirit in which a compliment is intended and not
think too much more about it I guess. I remember that one since it was so
funny. ....joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
Or say hello via Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/?ref=home#!/?ref=home
southtexasguitarist
> "guitarannie" <guitaran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Hey Joe,
Well, I was once told by an enthusiastic fan that I sounded like Ted
Nugent! At least I wasn't playing jazz at the time.
Clay Moore
Michael L Kankiewicz
>
> What you describe happened to me once too. Somebody was congratulating me
> after a concert and telling me how much I sounded like a particular
> guitarist. This happened to be a guitarist that I don't particularly care
> for and seldom if ever listen to at all. It was probably the only thing they
> could think to say and they were just trying to be nice. There are times
Maybe it was the only guitarist they knew...
Jim Soloway
> Lenny Breau
> Chet Atkins
Lenny learned almost everything Chet had every put put under his own
name (including both parts when Chet was overdubbing). Later he spent
a couple years studying Bill Evans.
Chet started out by copying both Merle Travis and Les Paul.
gco...@verizon.net
Chet also copied the hell out of Django.
pmfan57
Django was a huge influence. All the country jazz players, like Hank
Garland and Les Paul (yes, he was a influential country guitarist)
were Djangophiles. Also BB King and many of the rock players got
Django second hand through Les Paul. And Charlie Christian was
influenced by him as well. Of course CC influenced a ton of players
from Barney Kessel to Allan Holdsworth.
If you only think Django's influence is the recent gypsy guitar
phenomenon you are not accounting for his original influences that
spread far and wide.
rpjazzguitar
The guys who came up in the 40's and 50's all said (based on my
recollection multiple guitar player interviews) that they learned
Charlie Christian's solos.
I recall a BB King interview in which he talked about CC's mastery of
diminished chords. I think that was true of the country players of
the era as well. Everybody was blown away by CC.
pmfan57
He was the most influential, no doubt.
Paul Hotchkiss
No Rule that a guitarist can't copy a horn player or piano.
Jim Hall often notes he tries to study a variety of horn players for
his solo lines.
Lord Valve
I robbed more stuff from Kenny Burell than I ever did from Jimmy Smith...
Lord Valve
Organist
thomas
>
> CC learned from Lester Young and Django Reinhardt (he knew some of
> Django's solos note for note) to name two confirmed examples.
CC sounds more like Eddie Durham than anyone else.
icarusi
> So who do you sound like? You?
Starting with Clapton and Beck, I copied everybody who was the current hot
guitarist, until Holdsworth, the first one I couldn't figure out from the
recordings. I couldn't approach that speed and stamina so decided to work
more on my slower playing, which I'd negelected. Anything on a Steeley Dan
album, some Gary Moore and Robben Ford stuff later, more recently John
Scofield, Wayne Krantz, Tim Miller, Dave Grissom and Mike Stern.
I think my current sound owes most to Ollie Hallsall, the 'licks' I tend use
most, although I didn't intentionally copy him, but others hear Moore, Stern
(even before I'd heard him) and recently a E. Johnson/R. Ford cross!
icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
http://icarusi.wordpress.com/
Jazzer
> Who did Charlie Christian copy?
> Who did these guys copy?
>
> Wes Montgomery
> Tal Farlow
> Django Reinhardt
> Joe Pass
> Johnny Smith
> Kenny Burrell
> Lenny Breau
> Chet Atkins
> My Dad
> Al Viola
> Les Paul
Tell us who your Dad is and then perhaps we can tell you who he
copied! ;)
ecj
Django started playing in the Hot Club Quintet around 1935, and
Charlie Christian was recording with Bennie Goodman in 1939. I think
the idea that Christian was greatly influenced by Reinhardt might be a
bit far fetched.
Everything I've read about Christian says that he was really
interested in Eddie Lang and Lester Young, who would have been placed
more appropriately in the chronology for the influence to show up. I
personally don't hear a lot of Django influence in Christian's
playing. It certainly sounds more blues based to me.
This is not to diminish Django's importance in any way. He is
certainly one of the grandfathers of jazz guitar. I just disagree
with your assessment, and I've never heard of Christian knowing
Reinhardt solos before this thread. I'd be very interested to be
proven wrong.
Neer
Charlie Christian was a trumpet player in a band and he learned how to
play the basics from a guitarist named Ralph Hamilton. Lester Young
was his biggest influence.
Neer
Yeah, and he wants it back.
southtexasguitarist
There was a book of CC transcriptions I bought @ 1973 and IIRC the
notes in the books mentioned that he would "get a kick out of copying
Reinhardt's solos note for note and then following it up with
something of his own." That may not be verbatim but it's close enough.
Whether the story is true is anyone's guess, but it may be the source
of the rumor.
Joe Finn
news:9c13cc48-1f6e-4014...@l2g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
>>>Hey Joe,
>>>Clay Moore
That's pretty cool. Were you playing a Byrdland through a fuzz tone? 8-)
.....joe
Joe Finn
news:Pine.SOC.4.64.11...@ubunix2.acsu.buffalo.edu...
That's probably it. ...joe
pmfan57
Whether you think it's far fetched doesn't change the fact that CC
actually did learn entire Django solos and there are reports of him
playing them. So he was influenced by Django.
pmfan57
> "guitarannie" <guitaran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
Holdsworth was the one that made me give up on trying to be the
fastest guy around. I figured with enough metronome work I could kind
of cop Dimeola. But Holdsworth was like a man from 100 years in the
future. It's almost not fair.
Luke Brouillette
Yes ecj - and having spent some time hanging out in the yahoo CC Forum
years ago - participants vehemently deny any connection between CC and
Django.
Luke
tom walls
During the 60s when Clapton was being lauded as "fast", and I finally
heard him with the Bluesbreakers I thought "Right. He's playing too
fast." I couldn't understand why speed was extolled as a virtue. It
wasn't until I heard "Inner Mounting Flame" with McLaughlin that the
possibilities of velocity became apparent to me.
southtexasguitarist
It's just a guess but it seems dubious he would have heard Reinhardt
when he was coming up in Oklahoma, and he was pretty much fully formed
when he was hired away from there by Goodman. That said, I'm guessing
like any good musician once he heard Reinhardt's records he probably
said "wow, that's some great playing!" and copied some lines. I think
it's weird how some people try and keep these walls up, as though it's
some badge of honor that he *not* be influenced by good music. For
example, I've not heard anyone in the so-called jazz world talk about
the very likely cross-pollination of Western Swing and jazz in the
time and place, the hey day of territory bands, but wouldn't CC have
been hearing Wills and others on the radio?
ecj
Where do I find these accounts? I've never run into them before in my
studies.
southtexas - do you remember who did the transcriptions?
Not trying to be combative; I'm actually really interested in this.
CC is my current favorite guitarist.
Luke Brouillette
ecj - you should check out the yahoo group for charlie christian if
you haven't already. There's some infighting there but it might be
interesting to you as a lurker. There are at least a couple of authors
of books about CC who post rude comments about each others' lack of
knowledge etc. There are also some pretty good cats in there. One of
them has done me a favor once concerning some CC transcriptions.
Lukejazz
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Christian copied Django. Is known. And probably is evident in his
often use ( more of a guitar thing) of arpeggiated fragments. It is a
misconception to believe that to be influenced by another player, you
have to make it known through transparent mimicry. To me, an out and
out clone is a jerk-off and sounds like one. Near *every* one of the
greats copped from CC. Many believe that he actually invented Bebop.
Dizzy thought so. Dig Charley's feel. On another "note." Yes, Charlie
was absolutely influenced by western swing.
-TD
Luke Brouillette
icarusi
news:dfe71c19-de93-4610...@z27g2000prz.googlegroups.com...
>> It
wasn't until I heard "Inner Mounting Flame" with McLaughlin that the
possibilities of velocity became apparent to me. <<
I never understood the McLaughlin thing. I wasn't listening to any Miles
Davis, so hadn't heard him before, but compared to Holdsworth it just seemed
like sitar emulation but less interesting, but nowhere near the complexity
and revolutionary technique that Holdsworth was doing at the same time. I
did like the white suit and whole cosmic commercial lift it gave jazz-fusion
at the time. Given the choice of a face on an album you'd go for McLaughlin
every time.
ecj
I love the internets.
southtexasguitarist
It was a pea green folio and I don't recall any credit was given to
the transcriber or transcribers. I think I finally gave away or sold
it during my last big move. Sorry.
ecj
I wasn't trying to make a strong argument against any Django influence
in Christian's playing. It just seemed weird to me, since they were
contemporaries. It's like saying that Scofield was influenced by
Metheny, or Rollins was influenced by Coltrane.
I'll have to dig through some of the CC solos I know and think about
what elements may be "Django" related.
ecj
Thanks, Luke. I've heard there's a lot of controversy on the
fingerings espoused by that site's author, but it's definitely a
killer resource regardless.
Gerry
> I wasn't trying to make a strong argument against any Django influence
> in Christian's playing. It just seemed weird to me, since they were
> contemporaries. It's like saying that Scofield was influenced by
> Metheny, or Rollins was influenced by Coltrane.
They were! How could they not be? "Being influenced" doesn't have to
mean "copying the sound, philosophy, or licks" of another player.
Picasso and Braque were tight as they could be as young me and were
greatly influential to/with one another. It's almost like "influenced"
in this context means "derivative" or something.
> I'll have to dig through some of the CC solos I know and think about
> what elements may be "Django" related.
Okay.
--
-- At this point Sharazad saw the approach of morning and discreetly
fell silent.
rpjazzguitar
to hear a player say that he was influenced by someone he sounds
nothing like.
The influences are more subtle than that.
One way that CC might have been influenced by Django was simply in
seeing the possibility for fancy single note soloing. That was pretty
new at the time.
In listening to jazz guitar of that era, there was a double stop based
style, Allan Reuss being an example, which was entirely different.
Who else was doing fast, jazzy single note solos at the time?
Graham
to huntin' and shootin'.
On Apr 13, 6:56 pm, southtexasguitarist <c...@claymoore.com> wrote:
> Well, I was once told by an enthusiastic fan that I sounded like Ted
> Nugent! At least I wasn't playing jazz at the time.
>
> Clay Moore- Hide quoted text -
tom walls
> "tom walls" <tomwa...@gmail.com> wrote in message
By the time of Inner Mounting Flame, I had already listened to
McLaughlin with Miles and with Lifetime, but hadn't been blown away. I
hadn't heard Holdsworth yet, unless that really was him on Hurdy Gurdy
Man, so I didn't compare the two. I wasn't really familiar with the
bebop guitarists at that point. I totally understand your sitar
allusion, but I didn't see that as a bad thing. "Fusion", ya know?
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Too many prime examples in history, in music and besides music, of
influences shared between contemporaries. Your example of Rollins and
Trane? They were absolutely influenced by each other.
-TD
tom walls
They were like the Paul McCartney and Brian Wilson of jazz. :-)
Luke Brouillette
I've tried to discuss this before with the Django and CC "elements"
without much luck, but here is my theory:
One of the things that lends some similarity of sound and phrasing to
the two may come from picking technique. To my thinking the "gypsy
picking" technique really stems from a European approach to playing
plectrum instruments - a strong inclination for down rest strokes
which leads to superior projection and perhaps tone.
I'm guessing this technique was pretty widespread with acoustic
guitarists as a strong tradition. It's well known that (I think Barney
Kessel said) that CC played all downstrokes. While imo it's not likely
that he played literally ALL down strokes, the technique I'm talking
about does rely heavily on the downstrokes. I think CC would have
transferred that technique from his acoustic to his electric playing
very naturally.
Of course I could be reading too deeply into all of that, and CC may
have come up with his picking technique all on his own, but in any
case I do think it was pretty widespread among acoustic guitarists of
that time.
My measly evidence? On the last page of section one (p59) of Bill
Leavitt's Modern Method Volume One (before starting on position
playing) he has a study piece where instructs the student in an "old
style" of picking (not alternating). This uses the exact principles
of what we are now commonly calling "gypsy picking" where the down
rest stroke dominates everything.
Okay, I'll stop blabbing now - have fun!
Lukejazz
Gerry
>> I never understood the McLaughlin thing. I wasn't listening to any Miles
>> Davis, so hadn't heard him before, but compared to Holdsworth it just seemed
>> like sitar emulation but less interesting, but nowhere near the complexity
>> and revolutionary technique that Holdsworth was doing at the same time. I
>> did like the white suit and whole cosmic commercial lift it gave jazz-fusion
>> at the time. Given the choice of a face on an album you'd go for McLaughlin
>> every time.
>
> By the time of Inner Mounting Flame, I had already listened to
> McLaughlin with Miles and with Lifetime, but hadn't been blown away. I
> hadn't heard Holdsworth yet, unless that really was him on Hurdy Gurdy
> Man, so I didn't compare the two. I wasn't really familiar with the
> bebop guitarists at that point. I totally understand your sitar
> allusion, but I didn't see that as a bad thing. "Fusion", ya know?
Almost exactly my experience, though I thought I heard Holdworth with
Soft Machine somewhere in there. I think "sitar" refers to what he did
a number of years after Mahavishnu Orchestra, with Shakti.
Funny this should come up just now. Only yesterday iTunes randomly
provided "Dance of Maya" from Inner Mounting Flame. I don't think I've
heard it in over 25 years. It's on a collection "50 Years of Jazz
Guitar V4". That music just scrambled my brain. I had no category to
put it in and couldn't begin to figure out what they were doing and how.
I was surprised at how hard these guys worked. When the Jerry Goodman
violin solo pops up it reminded me that I bought the first Flock albums
when they came out. I wonder what became of Mr. Goodman.
Gerry
> One of the things that lends some similarity of sound and phrasing to
> the two may come from picking technique. To my thinking the "gypsy
> picking" technique really stems from a European approach to playing
> plectrum instruments - a strong inclination for down rest strokes
> which leads to superior projection and perhaps tone.
> I'm guessing this technique was pretty widespread with acoustic
> guitarists as a strong tradition. It's well known that (I think Barney
> Kessel said) that CC played all downstrokes. While imo it's not likely
> that he played literally ALL down strokes, the technique I'm talking
> about does rely heavily on the downstrokes. I think CC would have
> transferred that technique from his acoustic to his electric playing
> very naturally.
I've heard this about CC; the "all downstrokes" thing. Every time I
listen to him I not a phrase that is alternate. So I could never figure
out why this misinformation continues. Recently I was watching a Bucky
PIzzarelli instructional video and in one passage he plays some single
string and all of it is down-strokes. It occured to me that provided
it isn't an "effect", isn't a fast passage or some other rationale that
CC (and Bucky), would logically default to all downstrokes. That is,
if possible, they use downstrokes. Otherwise not. Just a guess as to
what the intent of the misinformation means.
> Of course I could be reading too deeply into all of that, and CC may
> have come up with his picking technique all on his own, but in any
> case I do think it was pretty widespread among acoustic guitarists of
> that time.
>
> My measly evidence? On the last page of section one (p59) of Bill
> Leavitt's Modern Method Volume One (before starting on position
> playing) he has a study piece where instructs the student in an "old
> style" of picking (not alternating). This uses the exact principles
> of what we are now commonly calling "gypsy picking" where the down
> rest stroke dominates everything.
>
> Okay, I'll stop blabbing now - have fun!
Keep up the good work.
tom walls
> Almost exactly my experience, though I thought I heard Holdworth with
> Soft Machine somewhere in there. I think "sitar" refers to what he did
> a number of years after Mahavishnu Orchestra, with Shakti.
>
> Funny this should come up just now. Only yesterday iTunes randomly
> provided "Dance of Maya" from Inner Mounting Flame. I don't think I've
> heard it in over 25 years. It's on a collection "50 Years of Jazz
> Guitar V4". That music just scrambled my brain. I had no category to
> put it in and couldn't begin to figure out what they were doing and how.
>
Shakti is obviously more directly influenced by classical Indian
music, but I think Icarusi is referring to McLaughlin's lines and
picking style in general as having that influence. I hear the
similarity, but from what I know about McLaughlin I would guess that
would be traced to his background in flamenco, as well.
> I was surprised at how hard these guys worked. When the Jerry Goodman
> violin solo pops up it reminded me that I bought the first Flock albums
> when they came out. I wonder what became of Mr. Goodman.
> --
The Flock was a Chicago band and I was friends with some of their
groupies(literally groupies). Jerry Goodman and I probably shared
STDs! (and, therefore, I'm famous)
David J. Littleboy
"Gerry" <add...@domain.com> wrote in message
news:2011041507231086505-address@domaincom...
> Funny this should come up just now. Only yesterday iTunes randomly
> provided "Dance of Maya" from Inner Mounting Flame. I don't think I've
> heard it in over 25 years. It's on a collection "50 Years of Jazz Guitar
> V4". That music just scrambled my brain. I had no category to put it in
> and couldn't begin to figure out what they were doing and how.
>
> I was surprised at how hard these guys worked. When the Jerry Goodman
> violin solo pops up it reminded me that I bought the first Flock albums
> when they came out. I wonder what became of Mr. Goodman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDy7mf4hAOM
--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Gerry
Thanks for that. I think he's one of only about 5 guys that have any
credibility in jazz including Venuti and Grapelli.
At wiki, I note with some amazement that he started with the Flock as a
roadie, and with no amazement at all that his parents were both
violinists with the Chicago Symphony.
He seems to have had a significant career after McLaughlin.
southtexasguitarist
> Thanks for that. I think he's one of only about 5 guys that have any
> credibility in jazz including Venuti and Grapelli.
Michal Urbaniak. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michał_Urbaniak
daveA
> Who did Charlie Christian copy?
> Who did these guys copy?
>
> Wes Montgomery
> Tal Farlow
> Django Reinhardt
> Joe Pass
> Johnny Smith
> Kenny Burrell
> Lenny Breau
> Chet Atkins
> My Dad
> Al Viola
> Les Paul
>
> Actually there is a pretty big list but these are just a few
>
> So who do you sound like? You?
Of jazz artists, Reinhardt was most influenced by Louis Armstrong.
Charlie Christian copied Reinhardt once in a while, but he was very
original himself. The rest stole from those two. Regards, daveA
TD
Played with him. He is a fusion player. Never forget Elek Bascik ( a
great player who Ponty studied with). Venuti, in his time, was
absolute genius. Grapelli hired me and died a week later. I made it to
his wake and funeral only.
-TD
thomas
>
> One way that CC might have been influenced by Django was simply in
> seeing the possibility for fancy single note soloing. That was pretty
> new at the time.
>
> In listening to jazz guitar of that era, there was a double stop based
> style, Allan Reuss being an example, which was entirely different.
>
> Who else was doing fast, jazzy single note solos at the time?
Teddy Bunn, Eddie Durham, Eddie Lang, Lonnie Johnson, etc.
guitarannie
> On Apr 13, 11:19 am, guitarannie <guitaran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Who did Charlie Christian copy?
> > Who did these guys copy?
>
> > Wes Montgomery
> > Tal Farlow
> > Django Reinhardt
> > Joe Pass
> > Johnny Smith
> > Kenny Burrell
> > Lenny Breau
> > Chet Atkins
> > My Dad
> > Al Viola
> > Les Paul
>
> copied! ;)
My dad name was Mike Bryan, he was playing Rhythm guitar With Charlie
and Benny.
Charlie got him the gig with Benny.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Bryan_(musician)
He would visit Charlie in the hospital near the end.
It was real sad for him.
Benny Goodman (featuring Charlie Christian): Solo Flight
Track
Benny Goodman Orchestra (featuring Charlie Christian)
CD
The Genius of the Electric Guitar (Sony Jazz 4K65564)
Buy Track
Musicians:
Charlie Christian (guitar), Benny Goodman (clarinet), Georgie Auld
(tenor sax), Johnny Guarnieri (piano), Dave Tough (drums),
Alec Fila, Jimmy Maxwell, Irving Goodman, Cootie Williams (trumpets),
Lou McGarity, Cutty Cutshall (trombones), Benny Goodman (clarinet,
leader), Skippy Martin, Gus Bivona (alto sax); Pete Mondello (tenor
sax), Bob Snyder (baritone sax), Mike Bryan (rhythm guitar), Artie
Bernstein (bass)
.
Recorded: New York, March 4, 1941
Gerry
> My dad name was Mike Bryan, he was playing Rhythm guitar With Charlie
> and Benny.
Wiki says:
"He rejoined Benny Goodman from January 1945 until September 1946 and
recorded with both the sextet and the orchestra."
I have all those recordings. Do you? If not, let me know and I can provide.
pmfan57
Boy that's some unfortunate timing, Tony. Didn't you mention some bad
Miles Davis timing too?
Venuti was so great. An American original.
pmfan57
> On 2011-04-15 07:39:59 -0700, David J. Littleboy said:
>
Ray Nance and Stuff Smith had credibility in jazz, and Baksik, as Tony
D. has pointed out several times.
I like Zbiggy Seifert in the McCoy Tyner mode of violin.
pmfan57
No doubt Charlie Christian was mostly CC and had nice Lester Young
things happening.
Jazzer
> > Tell us who your Dad is and then perhaps we can tell you who he
> > copied! ;)
>
> My dad name was Mike Bryan, he was playing Rhythm guitar With Charlie
> and Benny.
> Charlie got him the gig with Benny.
OK, thanks.
Sounds like he copied Freddie Green. :)
Frisbieinstein
> Somebody was congratulating me
> after a concert and telling me how much I sounded like a particular
> guitarist. This happened to be a guitarist that I don't particularly care
> for and seldom if ever listen to at all. It was probably the only thing they
> could think to say and they were just trying to be nice.
At a dinner party a guest once compared me to the star of the movie
Midnight Express, whose character is homosexually raped in a Turkish
prison. I also reminded myself that he was trying to be nice.
southtexasguitarist
Cool that you played with him. He recorded some great fusion records
IMO but also released some straight ahead records in the 1980s, and I
recall thinking he did pretty well on them. Music For Violin And Jazz
Quartet was one I had, with Kenny Barron, Buster Williams, Roy Haynes,
and Ted Dunbar.
Joe Scott
[...]
> Django started playing in the Hot Club Quintet around 1935, and
> Charlie Christian was recording with Bennie Goodman in 1939. I think
> the idea that Christian was greatly influenced by Reinhardt might be a
> bit far fetched.
>
> Everything I've read about Christian says that he was really
> more appropriately in the chronology for the influence to show up.[...]
Lester Young's first recorded solos are from November 1936. Django's
recordings from before 1937 take up more than eight CDs in the
Integrale series.
Joseph Scott
Joe Scott
[...]Near *every* one of the
> greats copped from CC. Many believe that he actually invented Bebop.
> Dizzy thought so.
When did Dizzy say that? Dizzy at Minton's and Monroe's in '41 on
"Exactly Like You," "Stardust," and "The Dizzy Crawl" sounds more like
'45 bebop than '41 Christian does.
People act as if "Up On Teddy's Hill" sounds like '45 Chuck Wayne, and
that's fun, but listen to it, and it doesn't. Wayne had mixed
Christian with Charlie Parker (etc.) by the end of '44 because bebop
as such had been invented by the end of '44, largely by the members of
the '43-'44 Gillespie-Pettiford combo. There are no recordings of
bebop as such from during Christian's lifetime, and on the recordings
from his lifetime that come closest to bebop as such, he isn't the
player who comes closest (closest would probably be Gillespie, Parker,
and Monk).
Joseph Scott
TD
I WORKED WITH MOODY IN ORCHESTRA FOR NEARLY TEN YEARS. MOODY
INTRODUCED ME TO DIZZY WHILE WE WERE IN NY BACK IN THE '80s. OVER
LUNCH NEAR CARNEGIE HALL, DIZZY SAID " WE BELIEVE THAT CHARLIE
CHRISTIAN ACTUALLY INVENTED BEBOP". IN ADDITION, IF YOU *LISTEN",
ACTUALLY LISTEN TO HOW CHARLIE PHRASED AND HIT THOSE NOTES, YOU
JUST....J U S T, MIGHT HEAR IT.
I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU WERE AT THAT LUNCH, WERE YOU? NO, BECAUSE IF YOU
WERE, PERHAPS YOU WOULDN'T BE TRYING TO ACT SO HIP.
ALL THESE HOT-SHOT PRESUMPTUOUS NO-IT-ALLS HERE, BE IT TROLLING OR,
OTHERWISE. SOMETIMES , MAN, IT REALLY GETS TO ME.
Joe Scott
Basie first met Green when Bryan was 20, and rhythm guitars were
standard in big bands during the seven or so years before that, so on
the face of it Allan Reuss would be a more likely guess.
Joseph Scott
Travis
@u26g2000vby.googlegroups.com>, tonyde...@gmail.com says...
Calm down man. Joe Scott is really the sig for Wynton Marsallis.
....and BTW it's spelled know-it-alls...
--
Travis
TD
<travissomewhereinthemiddleharr...@charter.net> wrote:
> In article <a2c51ad8-5588-483a-b7e7-4674135ddd48
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yea, and that would be most likely the only way you can correct me.
-TD
Joe Scott
> On Jun 12, 1:54 pm, Joe Scott <joenatesc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Apr 14, 3:41 pm, TD <tonydecap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > [...]Near *every* one of the
>
> > > greats copped from CC. Many believe that he actually invented Bebop.
> > > Dizzy thought so.
>
> > When did Dizzy say that? Dizzy at Minton's and Monroe's in '41 on
> > "Exactly Like You," "Stardust," and "The Dizzy Crawl" sounds more like
> > '45 bebop than '41 Christian does.
>
> > People act as if "Up On Teddy's Hill" sounds like '45 Chuck Wayne, and
> > that's fun, but listen to it, and it doesn't. Wayne had mixed
> > Christian with Charlie Parker (etc.) by the end of '44 because bebop
> > as such had been invented by the end of '44, largely by the members of
> > the '43-'44 Gillespie-Pettiford combo. There are no recordings of
> > bebop as such from during Christian's lifetime, and on the recordings
> > from his lifetime that come closest to bebop as such, he isn't the
> > player who comes closest (closest would probably be Gillespie, Parker,
> > and Monk).
>
> > Joseph Scott
>
> I WORKED WITH MOODY IN ORCHESTRA FOR NEARLY TEN YEARS. MOODY
> INTRODUCED ME TO DIZZY WHILE WE WERE IN NY BACK IN THE '80s. OVER
> LUNCH NEAR CARNEGIE HALL, DIZZY SAID " WE BELIEVE THAT CHARLIE
> CHRISTIAN ACTUALLY INVENTED BEBOP".
Did either of them mention why they believed that?
IN ADDITION, IF YOU *LISTEN",
> ACTUALLY LISTEN TO HOW CHARLIE PHRASED AND HIT THOSE NOTES, YOU
> JUST....J U S T, MIGHT HEAR IT.[...]
What aspect of his phrasing are you talking about?
I'm not surprised Dizzy said something that generous, he often did
that sort of thing (after all, when you're the person who did more
than anyone else to invent bebop, bringing _that_ up doesn't sound
very modest). I stand by all my comments about the music of '41-'45.
Joseph Scott
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
WOW.
Joe Scott
<travissomewhereinthemiddleharr...@charter.net> wrote:
> In article <a2c51ad8-5588-483a-b7e7-4674135ddd48
You think Wynton Marsalis would say Chuck Wayne was a more fully
formed bopper than Charlie Christian was? Seems unlikely to me.
Joseph Scott
Joe Scott
Can you be more specific about your amazement?
Joseph Scott
Travis
@hd10g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>, tonyde...@gmail.com says...
...and how long have you been having these hot flashes?
Seriously man, it was just joking.
--
Travis
Tom Walls
>
> I WORKED WITH MOODY IN ORCHESTRA FOR NEARLY TEN YEARS. MOODY
> INTRODUCED ME TO DIZZY WHILE WE WERE IN NY BACK IN THE '80s. OVER
> LUNCH NEAR CARNEGIE HALL, DIZZY SAID " WE BELIEVE THAT CHARLIE
> CHRISTIAN ACTUALLY INVENTED BEBOP". IN ADDITION, IF YOU *LISTEN",
> ACTUALLY LISTEN TO HOW CHARLIE PHRASED AND HIT THOSE NOTES, YOU
> JUST....J U S T, MIGHT HEAR IT.
>
> I DO NOT BELIEVE YOU WERE AT THAT LUNCH, WERE YOU? NO, BECAUSE IF YOU
> WERE, PERHAPS YOU WOULDN'T BE TRYING TO ACT SO HIP.
>
> ALL THESE HOT-SHOT PRESUMPTUOUS NO-IT-ALLS HERE, BE IT TROLLING OR,
> OTHERWISE. SOMETIMES , MAN, IT REALLY GETS TO ME.
Hey, hey -- cool down -- no need to resort to "all caps"! :-) But,
seriously, if Mr. Scott were a serious scholar of bebop he would be
familiar with the "bebop comes from Charlie Christian" meme. I must have
heard it a hundred times. A thousand time.
Joe Scott
[...]he would be
> familiar with the "bebop comes from Charlie Christian" meme.
I am familiar with it. Also, I don't think Christian did more than
anyone else to invent bebop.
Joseph Scott
TD
You can think whatever you want. It is a free country (or internet,
thus far), but what does that have to do what Dizzy said, of which you
came off doubting? If you think that Dizzy made that statement just to
be "nice", you are terribly naive. But you are also free to think
whatever you wish, because you are one of those compelled to always
come back to strafe. Just be aware that there are real players here
and they are not fooled by occasional visits by novices who go to the
library and pick out a few books about jazz. I am not saying that you
are one of them, of course.
Joe Scott
> be "nice", you are terribly naive.
I didn't say anything about "just to."
[...]you are one of those compelled to always
> come back to strafe[....]
If you want the idea that you're aware based on various evidence that
Charlie Christian did more than anyone else to invent bebop style
music to be taken seriously, speculation about what I might be like is
a very poor substitute for describing what about Christian's phrasing,
etc., makes you think he not only made a lot of contributions to how
bebop ended up sounding, but overall did even more to invent bebop
than e.g. Dizzy Gillespie did.
Joseph Scott
TD
You don't belong here.
pcj...@bell.net
wrote:
>Hey, hey -- cool down -- no need to resort to "all caps"! :-) But,
>seriously, if Mr. Scott were a serious scholar of bebop he would be
>familiar with the "bebop comes from Charlie Christian" meme. I must have
>heard it a hundred times. A thousand time.
Django Reinhardt invented bebop as a tribute to Dame Nellie Melba. You
heard it here first.
Tim McNamara
<40f445f0-afc7-403d...@d19g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
Joe Scott <joenat...@gmail.com> wrote:
Listen to Charlie, man. He played b5 #5 b9 #9 etc. in his lines. He
did substitutions. He played a lot of stuff that ended up in bebop.
Hell, Miles Davis stated that he tried to phrase on trumpet like a
guitar- guess what guitarist he'd have been most likely to have heard at
the time of his exposure to bebop at Minton's and the like.
Charlie wasn't just the first widely heard electric jazz guitarist
(although he was not the first- at least two or three other guitarists
preceded him (Eddie Durham, Floyd Smith and George Barnes) in recording
with electric guitar- but Charlie had the ear of the large audience of
Benny Goodman.
> > IN ADDITION, IF YOU *LISTEN", ACTUALLY LISTEN TO HOW CHARLIE
> > PHRASED AND HIT THOSE NOTES, YOU JUST....J U S T, MIGHT HEAR
> > IT.[...]
>
> What aspect of his phrasing are you talking about?
Go use your ears and listen to Charlie and then go listen to Bird and
Diz. You'll hear it. At the very least Charlie was proto-bebop and the
bebop guys would certainly have heard his records with Goodman.
> I'm not surprised Dizzy said something that generous, he often did
> that sort of thing (after all, when you're the person who did more
> than anyone else to invent bebop, bringing _that_ up doesn't sound
> very modest). I stand by all my comments about the music of '41-'45.
Then you're missing an opportunity to learn something.
--
All the years combine,
they melt into a dream-
A broken angel sings
from a guitar.
Tim McNamara
<b384d68d-ebf2-45ce...@x38g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
Joe Scott <joenat...@gmail.com> wrote:
So you know better than the people who were there- and the people who
know the people who were there. What is the source of your superior
knowledge, Joe?
Tim McNamara
<c43d0f1a-218b-4248...@18g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
Joe Scott <joenat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 13, 7:58 pm, ecj <evan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
> > Django started playing in the Hot Club Quintet around 1935, and
> > Charlie Christian was recording with Bennie Goodman in 1939. I think
> > the idea that Christian was greatly influenced by Reinhardt might be a
> > bit far fetched.
> >
> > Everything I've read about Christian says that he was really
> > interested in EddieLang and Lester Young, who would have been placed
> > more appropriately in the chronology for the influence to show up.[...]
>
> Lester Young's first recorded solos are from November 1936. Django's
> recordings from before 1937 take up more than eight CDs in the
> Integrale series.
Django was not yet an influence in the US at that time; he was generally
heard here after Charlie Christian due to Charles Delauney (sp?) not
having much if any distribution in the US for his recordings of the
Quintet du Hot Club de France. Django likely heard bebop before
beboppers heard Django (indeed, Django's first exposure to bebop is
discussed in Delauney's biography of Django).
Gerry
>> What aspect of his phrasing are you talking about?
>
> Go use your ears and listen to Charlie and then go listen to Bird and
> Diz. You'll hear it. At the very least Charlie was proto-bebop...
That's my view. His arpeggios using extensions, and then his dalliance
among the extensions, and some of his phrasing seem significant
pre-cursors.
The smooth, glib (not said with malice) interpretations that built on
all this are then seen as "the sound of bebop". So the mention of
Chuck Wayne, his touch more similar to the approach of Bird than
Christian, may seem to be more bebop because it had that lightness with
which it became associated.
But lightness and speed, now considered some of the markers of the
style, are not the fundmental harmonic/melodic undercarriage of bebop.
And that's where Christian's legacy resides.
TD
And if you can get your hands on very early Chuck, you can practically
hear Christian note for note.
Gerry
I always appreciate Joseph Scott's viewpoints. I don't agree with all
of them, and have fought tooth-and-nail over some of them. But they
sure are viewpoints informed by the history, documentation as well as
the artifacts of the music. And they rarely stray into personal
analysis of our group composition, who plays where and how well, what
papers you need to cross borders, et al.
Gerry
Isn't that deduction, Tim? If Green wasn't around yet, wouldn't it be
tough to imitate him?
Gerry
> On Jun 12, 4:11 pm, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2011-06-12 12:56:44 -0700, Tim McNamara said:
>>
>>>> What aspect of his phrasing are you talking about?
>>
>>> Go use your ears and listen to Charlie and then go listen to Bird and
>>> Diz. You'll hear it. At the very least Charlie was proto-bebop...
>>
>> That's my view. His arpeggios using extensions, and then his dalliance
>> among the extensions, and some of his phrasing seem significant
>> pre-cursors.
>>
>> The smooth, glib (not said with malice) interpretations that built on
>> all this are then seen as "the sound of bebop". So the mention of
>> Chuck Wayne, his touch more similar to the approach of Bird than
>> Christian, may seem to be more bebop because it had that lightness with
>> which it became associated.
>>
>> But lightness and speed, now considered some of the markers of the
>> style, are not the fundmental harmonic/melodic undercarriage of bebop.
>> And that's where Christian's legacy resides.
>
> And if you can get your hands on very early Chuck, you can practically
> hear Christian note for note.
Very true. I guess I should have specifically underscored the 2nd,
reinvented Chuck Wayne.
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Roaming the periphery, never even being in the last row, let alone box
office seats, and having the unmitigated gaul to challenge and doubt
first hand information from those who have experience, and experience
in the living of it, need no mention of borders and who plays well.
That is far from the subject matter, actually, but many like to play
the cuttingfest card for all things and I realize that. Defend who you
must. Nonesense remains nonsense. Reading mere excerpts in the scheme
of things out of books can be a dangerous tool. They don't know it, if
they ain't lived it. And if they can hear it, there would be no
argument in the first place nor would there be a need to try to cop
free lessons to boot.
-TD
Joe Scott
> In article
> <40f445f0-afc7-403d-9b33-a26587301...@d19g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
No one's saying he didn't. Did he do more to invent bebop than anyone
else?
> Hell, Miles Davis stated that he tried to phrase on trumpet like a
> guitar- guess what guitarist he'd have been most likely to have heard at
> the time of his exposure to bebop at Minton's and the like.
If you want to talk about who listened to who in New York clubs, okay,
but if so, it's relevant that Miles graduated from high school in
Missouri two years after Christian died.
>
> Charlie wasn't just the first widely heard electric jazz guitarist
> (although he was not the first- at least two or three other guitarists
> preceded him (Eddie Durham, Floyd Smith and George Barnes) in recording
> with electric guitar[...]
Far more than three preceded him on record, but none in a jazz band as
currently popular as Goodman's, which helps explain why he was more
influential on bebop-era guitarists than any other guitarist, which in
of itself doesn't somehow imply that he did more than Dizzy Gillespie
to invent bebop more generally.
At the very least Charlie was proto-bebop[...]
Of course.
and the
> bebop guys would certainly have heard his records with Goodman.
I think the Goodman and Ellington records of about '40-'42 influenced
the boppers _some_, importantly and significantly, but I think what we
hear as the actual bebop sound (as heard on many '45-'46 recordings)
came together about '43 and was first recorded commercially around the
time of Clyde Hart's Dec. '44 session for Savoy, a band that
overlapped the Pettiford-Gillespie band in personnel and on two of
those four sides was doing an offshoot sound to the Pettiford-
Gillespie band of '43-'44 (which a live recording of became available
only in recent decades).
>
> > I'm not surprised Dizzy said something that generous, he often did
> > that sort of thing (after all, when you're the person who did more
> > than anyone else to invent bebop, bringing _that_ up doesn't sound
> > very modest). I stand by all my comments about the music of '41-'45.
>
> Then you're missing an opportunity to learn something.
Not at all. What do you have to teach me regarding those comments?
Here they are:
Joe Scott
> Joe Scott <joenatesc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 15, 10:06 pm, Jazzer <googlejaz...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > On Apr 15, 2:45 pm, guitarannie <guitaran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > Tell us who your Dad is and then perhaps we can tell you who
> > > > > he copied! ;)
>
> > > > My dad name was Mike Bryan, he was playing Rhythm guitar With
> > > > Charlie and Benny. Charlie got him the gig with Benny.
>
> > > OK, thanks. Sounds like he copied Freddie Green. :)
>
> > Basie first met Green when Bryan was 20, and rhythm guitars were
> > standard in big bands during the seven or so years before that, so on
> > the face of it Allan Reuss would be a more likely guess.
>
> So you know better than the people who were there- and the people who
> know the people who were there. What is the source of your superior
> knowledge, Joe?
The language like "sounds like" and "on the face of it" and "guess" in
this exchange, none of it fits with this characterization.
Joseph Scott
Joe Scott
Wayne was also influenced by Charlie Parker harmonically.
To put it bluntly, Wayne talked about Charlie Parker as influencing
him to take up bebop because already playing like Christian, which he
had been, basically isn't enough to be playing bebop as such.
Otherwise why bring it up? That said, I bet if Wayne were here he'd
have plenty to say about how Christian was sort of bebop, and how the
sort-of-bebop music was the number one type of music that influenced
the bebop as such, and rightly so.
It's a shame Jerry Newman wasn't recording a lot of jam sessions in
'43 and '44, or we'd have those recordings to listen to when we want
to hear what the likes of Monk were doing in '41-'44, and it would
sound closer to '45 bebop than Newman's '41 proto-bop stuff does. But
we do have many, many, many recordings of jazz from '41-'43, enough to
hear how the music was gradually changing just fine, and it didn't
sound like "Night In Tunisia" (as a whole) yet in '41, from any of
these people.
Joseph Scott
Joe Scott
[...]having the unmitigated gaul to challenge and doubt[...]
In the sincere pursuit of truth, challenging and doubting are healthy,
not unhealthy.
Here's another quote from Dizzy Gillespie: "We started getting into
the new style of playing when Kenny Clarke came into Teddy Hill's
band. Kenny really drew a different kind of sound out of those drums."
Kenny Clarke joined Teddy Hill, a band that didn't include Christian,
in 1940, was reportedly fired from that band because of his
adventurous drumming, and then began playing in the house band at
Minton's. Were Dizzy Gillespie and Kenny Clarke apparently playing
proto-bop (or bop) even before Charlie Christian was, in Dizzy
Gillespie's opinion, on a literal reading of this quote? Do you think
they were? If so, what would it mean for someone else who joined in
after Kenny and Dizzy to be (quoting Dizzy at the lunch) the inventor
of bebop? That he did more than _anyone else_ to invent how bebop
generally sounded as of '45, or some time later?
Perhaps. And perhaps Christian did do that, but if you look at the
whole forest in which, e.g., about half of all '40s small-group bebop
recordings didn't even have a guitar on them, a whole _lot_ of what
people identify with bebop sounds of '45, or later, came from people
other than Christian. As one example, bebop trumpeters in general were
just as influenced by Dizzy as guitarists were by Christian, and
that's only one of the ways Dizzy influenced other boppers. For
instance, if Cubop is part of bebop more generally, it's a part
Christian didn't have much to do with inventing.
Joseph Scott
rpjazzguitar
question.
Has anybody identified a recording that Charlie might have heard,
which sounds like it directly influenced his playing? That is, does
he sound like anybody who came before him and, if so, can you provide
a link to the recording?
I was just listening to the Wes NPR thing. There are a couple of early
recordings where he sounds like Charlie (the Lionel Hampton big band
track, for example).
Is there anything like that for Charlie?
pmfan57
He was always trying to sound like a horn. I think Lester Young was
his guy.
thomas
>
> You can think whatever you want. It is a free country (or internet,
> thus far), but what does that have to do what Dizzy said, of which you
> came off doubting? If you think that Dizzy made that statement just to
> be "nice", you are terribly naive. But you are also free to think
> whatever you wish, because you are one of those compelled to always
> come back to strafe. Just be aware that there are real players here
> and they are not fooled by occasional visits by novices who go to the
> library and pick out a few books about jazz. I am not saying that you
> are one of them, of course.
Tony, these ad hominem shots are off the mark. Mr. Scott knows more
about this history than any one on here. The notion that an entire
style of music can be "invented" by one guy seems far-fetched to me.
It's so obviously a community creation.
It's very likely that CC was held in high regard among the community
bop innovators. Scott is simply saying that he hears more bebop in
1941 Dizzy than he does in 1941 CC. This seems like a reasonable
observation worthy of discussion rather than abuse.
thomas
It seems to me that the major innovations of bop have much more to do
with rhythm and phrasing than with harmony. I don't hear any harmonic
innovation in CC that you can't also hear in Eldridge or Tatum or any
number of more advanced swing players.
TD
He was suggesting that *Dizzy didn't say what he said*. I have no
objection to the guy's opinions. What is he a librarian? Just curious.
Did he ever met Dizzy? I have nothing personal against him. I just
don't like seeng bullshit written here. If you buy his rap, OK then.
Buy it. He came on to my old post ( in a jive fashion and I read it
that way, so you wish to critcise me, I care less) and I responded.
You want to defend him for tangents? I am not concerned with tangents
that he runs (keeps teaking his rap) on at each posting, suit
yourself. The subject is not about a guy inventing an entire style of
music per se, it is about what Dizzy said. And Dizzy said that Charlie
did. And if Dizzy said it, you know Bird said it. They expounded upon
that initial feel laid down by Charlie; plain and simple. Your boy
knows about jazz more than anyone here, then how come he has to ask me
what do I mean about CC's phrasing. Yea Thom...
-TD
TD
Yawn....
rpjazzguitar
I do hear some of Charlie in Lester Leaps In (take 1) from 1939. It's
in the time feel of the swung eighths, some of the descending phrases,
and where he starts and ends phrases. I don't hear Charlie's use of
diminished sounds. Seems unlikely that Lester would have been
influenced by Charlie in 1939 (I think his first recordings were that
year), so more likely Charlie listened to Lester, or they both
listened to other stuff.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cinDtwNILiU&feature=related
This link is to 1936. I hear a bit of Charlie in it, but less than the
1939.
thomas
I think he was trying to engage you in a conversation, and you're
looking for a fight. Sometimes it's hard to read people's intended
tone in these forums, especially if you don't know them.
Tim McNamara
<0f758e7a-1667-43ef...@l6g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
TD <tonyde...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jun 12, 4:11 pm, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
> > On 2011-06-12 12:56:44 -0700, Tim McNamara said:
> >
> > >> What aspect of his phrasing are you talking about?
> >
> > > Go use your ears and listen to Charlie and then go listen to Bird
> > > and Diz. You'll hear it. At the very least Charlie was
> > > proto-bebop...
> >
> > That's my view. His arpeggios using extensions, and then his
> > dalliance among the extensions, and some of his phrasing seem
> > significant pre-cursors.
> >
> > The smooth, glib (not said with malice) interpretations that built
> > on all this are then seen as "the sound of bebop". So the mention
> > of Chuck Wayne, his touch more similar to the approach of Bird than
> > Christian, may seem to be more bebop because it had that lightness
> > with which it became associated.
> >
> > But lightness and speed, now considered some of the markers of the
> > style, are not the fundmental harmonic/melodic undercarriage of
> > bebop. And that's where Christian's legacy resides.
>
> And if you can get your hands on very early Chuck, you can
> practically hear Christian note for note.
Tal Farlow also studied Charlie very closely and learned his solos note
for note. For that whole generation of guitarists, Charlie was
fundamental.