Monster cable signal flow
Joe Finn
Ultra-Clear Jazz Guitar Cable" by Monster Cable. It has a little arrow
labeled "signal flow" on the insulation that indicates which way you should
connect the guitar to the amp.
Apart from my general amusement at the marketing of this product, I was
wondering if there is really anything to this signal flow concept.
I'm skeptical. ...joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
Norm K
It's important because if you use the cable in reverse your solos say
"Paul is dead."
guitarannie
I couldn't find any technical info on the monster cable website.
If you hook up an Ohm-meter you can compare it to other cables.
The smaller number means less resistance.
One way signal arrow?
Does it sound different if you hook it up backwards?
Does the amp explode?
Maybe they use a filter in the cable to cut the highs or something.
Much like turning your tone knob. (but with no control)
It still looks like marketing gimmickry.
SAS
ccn...@gmail.com
is an alternating current, meaning the electrical waveform
corresponding to the sound wave is oscillating back and forth between
positive and negative. Think of a graph of a waveform where the center
is zero and the wave rises and drops equally above and below the
center line. As a result, the electrons are alternately flowing each
direction equally. If a cable actually had polarity, it would be
acting like a diode and introduce distortion to the signal! If they
were really savvy they would be marketing on the brag of how bi-
directional their cables were.
Now if they had claimed to have reverse engineered alien technology
from alien guitar cables held at Area 51...there might be something to
that...
Joey Goldstein
Planet Waves does this too with their cables.
One end is grounded differently than the the other.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
Marc Why
http://www.deathvalleycablecompany.com/faqs.html
(I like these DV cables, BTW, and I hate my Monster Jazz cables after
playing other cables, i.e. Klotz and Death Valley).
Marc
Keith Freeman
-Keith
Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl
paul s
I remember hearing years ago that Eric Johnson marked his cables so
that he (and his roadies) could see which end should go to the
guitar.
Paul S
reso...@hotmail.com
Sorry Joey, there is only one definition of "grounded!" If it's
connected to a path to ground, it's GROUNDED! There is no other way to
"ground" something! Now the path to ground may have a variable or
varied impedance, but that's another matter... and another circuit.
The only way a cable (or any other signal path) can be directional, is
if it has a rectifer bridge, a circuit which converts AC to DC which a
guitar cable does not do! And this one doesn't have such a circuit in
it either!
The AC which is produced by a guitar pickup is at twice the frequency
of the vibration of the guitar string that stimulated it, not standard
wall curent. And all that hokum about "microcrystalline structure" in
the copper wire being realigned if the current only flows one way is
absolute rubbish. High-end audio guys are always spewing this stuff
when trying to sell speaker cables that cost thousands of dollars. But
double-blind listening tests (when you can get one of these yahoos to
agree to take one...) have proved that there is no discernable audio
difference between a thousand-dollar speaker cable and a piece of coat
hanger wire! The main selling point is "if you can't hear something
wonderful from these cables, there must be something wrong with your
ears!"
My ears are just fine, thank you! And I'll wager yours are too! Plug
in your cord any way you want to!
rpjazz...@gmail.com
the electrons don't get lost.
There is a reason, in certain circumstances, to disconnect the ground
on one end of a cable to avoid ground loops. But, even then, I'm not
clear on why it would be directional. Also, that wouldn't be the cable
to connect the guitar to the amp, unless the guitar had two cables for
some reason and the other one was fully connected to ground.
Joey Goldstein
Regardless of that information, the Planet Waves cables *are* grounded
differently on one end. I.e. I believe, although I'm not sure, one end's
ground is connected to the shield and the other is not.
I believe, although I'm not sure, they do this to help combat noise.
I.e. I don't think it has anything to do with the capacitance effect or
tone.
Most "normal" cables will have the ground connected on both ends to the
shield, as far as I know.
I can't really speak to what Monster Cables is doing with their cables
but I'm guessing it's the same thing as what PW is doing.
And as far as listening tests are concerned...I've done my own.
The PW cables and the George L cables definitely sound different than my
normal Beldon cables with Switchcraft jacks or sim.
I just happen to like the sound of "normal" cables more.
reso...@hotmail.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
It wouldn't make one bit of difference if the shield is connected to
the ground at one end or two. As long as it's connected, it's
connected!
Case in point: If you touched a 40,000 volt hydro line in Toronto, it
wouldn't matter if it was connected to a generator in Niagara Falls or
if it was connected to a generator in Saguenay, Quebec, or to both of
them; you'd be just as dead! As long as the current has a path to
ground (through you) it will follow that path.
Keith Freeman
> the ground at one end or two.
were connected to the ground terminal only at one end I suppose it might
have some kind of abstruse capacitance or inductance effect? (even though
electrically the two ends are connected)
Keith Freeman
standard coax arrangement, so no extra shielding.
Joey Goldstein
Regardless of these little factoids of yours there *is* a reason why
these cables are supposed to be connected one way rather than the other.
reso...@hotmail.com
Which way rather than what way...?
As much as I admire your guitar stylings and knowledge of theory, it's
apparent here that you don't know what you're talking about or how
these cables are constructed. It's time to stop talking.
Arthur Quinn
You could make a directional guitar cable in one of the following two ways.
1) Use a twin core with shield cable. Connect the guitar circuit using
the two cores and connect the shield only at one end.
2) Use a double shielded cable. Connect the guitar circuit using the
core and inner shield and connect the outer shield only at one end.
Any guitar cable using normal single core single shield cable must be
bidirectional
Cables for HiFi can sometimes be wired with the shield unconnected at
one end because the devices being connected share a common ground.
This is not true of guitar cables. There is never a common ground
between the guitar and the amp. The ground connection must be provided
by the cable or there will be no circuit and no signal.
Arthur
--
Arthur Quinn
real-email arthur at bellacat dot com
Joey Goldstein
As much as I don't admire you, right back at'cha.
Joey Goldstein
Jesus Christ people....
These cables are "bi-directional" in that they will work either way.
But the work *better* one way rather than the other.
Sheesh.
Joey Goldstein
Take this up with the folks at Planet Waves, not with me.
"Planet Waves Accessories \ Product Assistance
I have one of your Custom Instrument cables. What does "sheilded end"
refer to?
This configuration provides the best shielding against external noise.
The shield intercepts external noise and diverts it to the amplifier
ground, reducing interference. Connecting the shield to the amplifier
end provides the shortest and most direct path to the amplifier ground
and maximizes the shielding effectiveness. If the shield is connected at
the guitar end, the intercepted noise is forced to travel through the
cable before reaching the amplifier ground; this causes extra noise
pickup by the cable and reduces shielding effectiveness. If the shield
is connected at both ends, some of the noise can still travel through
the cable before reaching the amplifier ground, thereby reducing
shielding effectiveness."
Joey Goldstein
BTW
It's not that I disrespect you or anything.
I don't "admire" you because I have no idea who you are.
RickH
I though these directional cables were less-versatile than a regular
cable.
You'd be better off just using a separate ground lift adapter and a
standard ground-to-ground cable, then you could break the shield at
either end or not at all by simply not using the GL adapter. When I
plug my amp straight into my mixer I get a nasty ground loop with my
receivers tape monitor and my amp and all the other stuff on the
receiver, so I just put a ground lift adapter in the guitar cable and
no more hum (in this case the guitar signal ground path goes 100% over
the power ground eliminating the diference in potential between my
cable ground and the power ground).
rpjazz...@gmail.com
in a signal carrying cable between a guitar amp and the mixer? If so,
this is one of those situations in which you can break the ground
connection in the cable and eliminate a ground loop.
If, on the other hand, you mean putting a ground lift on the power
plug of one of the amps, then that will work too, but sacrifices
safety. The proper way to do that is with an isolation transformer.
Tim McNamara
wrote:
I'm skeptical too, electricity being reversible and all. I see this
stuff on bicycle tires too, with manufacturers claiming to have
"directional" tread which is a bunch of hooey. It just makes thing seem
more scientific and precise, and gives those who are prone to being
obsessive something else to obsess about.
Tim McNamara
Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
> Joe Finn wrote:
> > I was given a new cable. It is the Prolink Monster Jazz "High
> > Performance Ultra-Clear Jazz Guitar Cable" by Monster Cable. It has
> > a little arrow labeled "signal flow" on the insulation that
> > indicates which way you should connect the guitar to the amp.
> >
> > Apart from my general amusement at the marketing of this product, I
> > was wondering if there is really anything to this signal flow
> > concept.
> >
> > I'm skeptical. ...joe
> >
>
> Planet Waves does this too with their cables. One end is grounded
> differently than the the other.
How so?
Tim McNamara
Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
Well, the question is whether the reason is simply that the manufacturer
has marked the cable "plug it in this way," in which case it's just
marketing nonsense.
rpjazz...@gmail.com
wrapped around it?
Or, are there two conductors and an extra shield?
Since case 1 doesn't seem to make any sense, I guess it must be case
2. Or am I missing something?
So, we have an extra shield and it's connected to ground at the amp
(same as ground lead inside the cable). So, the idea is that the noise
will be captured by the shield and then take the shortest path to
ground.
If it was connected at the guitar end, then the noise would have to go
up the shield and back down the ground conductor inside the cable to
the amp. This is several feet longer (divide by the speed of light to
get the delay) and, presumably, has more resistance, not that you
could hear the difference.
If it's connected at both ends, like most cables, the noise would
still favor the path of least resistance, with the majority of it
going towards the amp. The proportion that does that depends on the
resistance each way, I suppose. The bigger the difference between the
directions, the more that's going right toward the amp anyway.
The physics of that may be right. I find it hard to believe that the
difference would be audible. I think it's hype.
castleb...@att.net
<rpjazz...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a4e92d89-4301-4811...@z8g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
http://www.sweetwater.com/insync/word.php?find=FaradayShield
The issue would be sensitiviey to external electrostatic fields, hum and
noise from external sources. a path to ground at both ends of a shield makes
it not a shield.
Bob
billc...@hotmail.com
> I was given a new cable. It is the Prolink Monster Jazz "High Performance
> Ultra-Clear Jazz Guitar Cable" by Monster Cable. It has a little arrow
> labeled "signal flow" on the insulation that indicates which way you should
> connect the guitar to the amp.
>
> Apart from my general amusement at the marketing of this product, I was
> wondering if there is really anything to this signal flow concept.
>
> I'm skeptical. ...joe
>
> Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
http://www.monstercable.com/faqs/siteResults.asp?SiteID=30
see first FAQ on list - it appears to be a semi-balanced cable
Kjetil Rossavik
> A little science solves the issue. The signal from a guitar pickup
> is an alternating current, meaning the electrical waveform
> corresponding to the sound wave is oscillating back and forth between
> positive and negative. Think of a graph of a waveform where the center
> is zero and the wave rises and drops equally above and below the
> center line. As a result, the electrons are alternately flowing each
> direction equally. If a cable actually had polarity, it would be
> acting like a diode and introduce distortion to the signal! If they
> were really savvy they would be marketing on the brag of how bi-
> directional their cables were.
> Now if they had claimed to have reverse engineered alien technology
> from alien guitar cables held at Area 51...there might be something to
> that...
>
Just make sure your guitar is higher up than your amp, so that the
electrons can flow downhill.
;-)
KJ.
RickH
>
> - Show quoted text -
I use a guitar cable between the mixer and amp, (they are both phone
jacks). I put the GL on the amp side so the ground is referenced to
the mixer.
Joe Finn
news:3df48$4a1acc24$4038fda2$22...@PRIMUS.CA...
> Joe Finn wrote:
>> I was given a new cable. It is the Prolink Monster Jazz "High Performance
>> Ultra-Clear Jazz Guitar Cable" by Monster Cable. It has a little arrow
>> labeled "signal flow" on the insulation that indicates which way you
>> should connect the guitar to the amp.
>>
>> Apart from my general amusement at the marketing of this product, I was
>> wondering if there is really anything to this signal flow concept.
>>
>> I'm skeptical. ...joe
>>
>
> One end is grounded differently than the the other.
>
> --
> Joey Goldstein
The solder connections are the same on both ends of this particular cable.
Joe Finn
>
> These cables are "bi-directional" in that they will work either way.
> But the work *better* one way rather than the other.
> Sheesh.
>
>
> --
> Joey Goldstein
I'm not clear on how it is better. It sounds the same either way. ...joe
Joe Finn
news:d37c9c28-228f-4e76...@r3g2000vbp.googlegroups.com...
Interesting post. I'm skeptical about many of the claims made about audio
components including cables. The double blind test sums it up for me. If I
can't hear a difference then what's the difference? ...joe
Joe Finn
news:timmcn-3552CD....@news.iphouse.com...
This sort of thing was more prevalent among audiophiles of the analog era. I
remember hearing protracted obsessive arguments about turntables, tuners,
preamps and even cables. Today's gear heads are cut from the same cloth.
It's possible that there is less to argue about when it comes to digital
playback gear. I still recommend listening to the music rather than the
equipment. ...joe
Joe Finn
news:77cf1f09-f397-4123...@o30g2000vbc.googlegroups.com...
http://www.monstercable.com/faqs/siteResults.asp?SiteID=30
Thanks Bill. ...joe
Joey Goldstein
> "Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote
>> These cables are "bi-directional" in that they will work either way.
>> But the work *better* one way rather than the other.
>> Sheesh.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Joey Goldstein
>
>
> I'm not clear on how it is better. It sounds the same either way. ...joe
>
The claim is, I suppose, that if connected as directed the cables are
capable of being a bit quieter than if connected the other way.
As far as your ears not being capable of hearing a difference in the
sound of various cables, I suggest that you get your ears checked.
rpjazz...@gmail.com
Now, what does this mean? Sounds like they solder the shield to the
outside of the jack on the "source" side (doesn't that mean the guitar
side, not the amp side, as suggested in a different post?).
So, if the device it's plugged into has balanced inputs then the
shield connects to chassis ground ... I'm not quite clear on how
that's connected to the ground lead inside the cable.
Or, if it's plugged into an unbalanced input, there would be, in
theory, a way to make sure that all the noise was shunted to ground
along a shorter length of cable (with the current dividing in
proportion to the resistance). And, of course, it would still be there
in the ground wire of the signal path.
The way to see if it made any difference would be to test in an
environment with massive electronic noise and see if it made any
difference. Then, if it did, you could test it in a normal environment
and see if it made any difference -- and then, if it did, somehow have
yourself tested to make sure you're not making any of this up ...
hype.
t...@timberens.com
> I was given a new cable. It is the Prolink Monster Jazz "High Performance
> Ultra-Clear Jazz Guitar Cable" by Monster Cable.
>
>
Joe:
I'm skeptical too -- not that it might be wired differently, but that
it sounds different or in some way improves the functionality of the
cable.
Can you hear a difference?
Tim Berens
http://timberens.com
Kevin Van Sant
message
<ff3ed8f9-b7a9-4fe5...@g20g2000vba.googlegroups.com> :
I don't claim to know anything about signal flow, and I don't care
about this sort of thing in the least bit. But what's great about the
monster cables is their lifetime warranty. You don't even need a
receipt, if you've got a dead monster cable bring it in to any dealer
and they will replace it.
I can plainly hear the difference btw a monster cable or a George L
and a generic cable, but I can't hear a difference btw the monster
being plugged in the "right" direction vs the "wrong" direction. That
being said, I for some reason am in the habit of always glancing at
the arrows to have it plugged in the right way :)
________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
Check out my brand new CD "Play the Music of Horace Silver"
http://www.kevinvansant.com
Joey Goldstein
>
> I can plainly hear the difference btw a monster cable or a George L
> and a generic cable,
I think most people can, except maybe Joe Finn.
> but I can't hear a difference btw the monster
> being plugged in the "right" direction vs the "wrong" direction.
As it has to do with the shielding, you probably won't notice unless
you're in a room with lots of potential for electronic noise.
> That
> being said, I for some reason am in the habit of always glancing at
> the arrows to have it plugged in the right way :)
I bought a bunch of Planet Waves cables a few years back and could never
remember which end went into the guitar.
I found the Planet Waves cables to be too mid-rangey, so I just use
regular old-fashioned well constructed shielded cables now.
The George L's sound pretty good but I don't like the way the material
keeps its shape after winding up the cable. I like cables that don't get
all twisted when they're unwound.
rpjazz...@gmail.com
account for differences in capacitance?
Joey Goldstein
> Can you hear the difference after you adjust your tone control to
> account for differences in capacitance?
That's irrelevant.
Joe Finn
news:ff3ed8f9-b7a9-4fe5...@g20g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
>>Joe:
>>Tim Berens
The cable sounds the same to me regardless of which way the signal is
flowing.
Just for fun I asked a couple of students to listen to various cables I had
lying around: Canare, Pro Co, Rapco, Whirlwind, Monster, Belden and one
no-name. These were cables of differing lengths that were fitted with a
variety of connectors. We used the same guitar and the same amp in the same
room. Nobody noticed any differences in sound quality. They also agreed that
the Monster cable sounds the same regardless of which way the signal is
flowing. ...joe
rpjazz...@gmail.com
Chickenhead
ear. Either that, or the connection was going bad on one end; since the
guitar end wiggles more, maybe he wanted the bad connection on the other
end. He probably just needed to buy some new cables.
Maybe he was just being frugal.
"paul s" <pasa...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:75cc1f2f-9781-48e3...@n7g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
> On May 25, 7:58 am, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
>> I was given a new cable. It is the Prolink Monster Jazz "High Performance
>> Ultra-Clear Jazz Guitar Cable" by Monster Cable. It has a little arrow
>> labeled "signal flow" on the insulation that indicates which way you
>> should
>> connect the guitar to the amp.
>>
>> Apart from my general amusement at the marketing of this product, I was
>> wondering if there is really anything to this signal flow concept.
>>
>> I'm skeptical. ...joe
>>
>> --
>> Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
>
> I remember hearing years ago that Eric Johnson marked his cables so
> that he (and his roadies) could see which end should go to the
> guitar.
>
>
> Paul S
Chickenhead
impression that on unbalanced shielded cabling, the ground and the shield
were the same wire and that it had to be connected at both ends.
I don't see how the "shield" could be connected at only one end on a
two-wire circuit if it's also functioning as ground. But what the hell do I
know? . . . I'm just a guy who plays weddings and drives trucks, not an
engineer. If the folks who make the cable claim there's a difference, it
must be so.
But, to do the math: If your cable was a mile long, and since electricity
travels at the speed of light (186,000 miles-per-second), you might get some
resonance in the 186 Khz range. I can't hear anything over 13K on a good
day anyways, perhaps if I had better ears I could hear all that 186K
distortion in my mile long cable ;-) On the other hand 186K/13K = appx
14.3. So next time I need a 14 mile guitar cable, I'll be sure to plug it
in the right way and make it a "Monster."
<reso...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6f7020eb-06f7-4408...@q2g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
Chickenhead
;-)
"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:jcco15p5e7prr44t1...@4ax.com...
Chickenhead
ground, and negative are all the same wire on a guitar cord, how do you
"lift the ground," from the guitar cord.
The more I think about this, the less sense it makes. Perhaps some
electrical engineer type could explain this to me in a way I understand.
The quote from the marketing literature kinda' sounds like "blah, blah,
blah, 9/11, 9/11" to me.
"RickH" <pass...@windcrestsoftware.com> wrote in message
news:cf1b7abb-17c4-4648...@q14g2000vbn.googlegroups.com...
> On May 25, 9:58 am, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
>> I was given a new cable. It is the Prolink Monster Jazz "High Performance
>> Ultra-Clear Jazz Guitar Cable" by Monster Cable. It has a little arrow
>> labeled "signal flow" on the insulation that indicates which way you
>> should
>> connect the guitar to the amp.
>>
>> Apart from my general amusement at the marketing of this product, I was
>> wondering if there is really anything to this signal flow concept.
>>
>> I'm skeptical. ...joe
>>
>> --
>> Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
>
> I though these directional cables were less-versatile than a regular
> cable.
>
> You'd be better off just using a separate ground lift adapter and a
> standard ground-to-ground cable, then you could break the shield at
> either end or not at all by simply not using the GL adapter. When I
> plug my amp straight into my mixer I get a nasty ground loop with my
> receivers tape monitor and my amp and all the other stuff on the
> receiver, so I just put a ground lift adapter in the guitar cable and
rpjazz...@gmail.com
Since the input jack on most amps is two conductor, the shield and the
ground wire are connected right there. I guess the argument is that
the noise picked up by the shield is shunted to ground faster if you
connect the shield to the ground only at the amp. Otherwise, some
fraction of the noise travels the long way (to where shield and ground
are connected at the guitar and then back down the cable to the amp.
The idea that somebody could hear that strikes me as absurd.
Or maybe it's if you feed a mixer with balanced inputs?
Chickenhead
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote in message
news:gvh89m$21b$4...@news.datemas.de...
rpjazz...@gmail.com
> "Tim McNamara" <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote in message
>
> news:timmcn-3552CD....@news.iphouse.com...
>
One of my most memorable music listening experiences occurred in an
old Volkswagon, stock radio with a 4 inch oval speaker. It's the song,
the moment, the emotion. Not that I'd want to pull that speaker out of
an old car and gig with it.