Eric Clapton plays Autumn Leaves
Graham
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQlFOX0YKlQ
He doesn't really play much until about 3:38.
I don't think jazz guitarists need to lose any sleep over it.
Graham
TD
Better than I had anticipated, but I think he should have canned the
rhythm guitarist (or at least brought it way down in the mix),
lightened up on the back-beat and used a totally different bass
player. Eric just needs to learn some more convincing licks for the
turnarounds (or V chords). Bravo for the idea.
-TD
6fingers
This is one of the, if not the, best version of this song I've ever
heard. Now TAKE A WALK down to the record store and buy it!
rakmanenuff
> I don't think jazz guitarists need to lose any sleep over it.
>
*Sending* everybody to sleep.
drthoma...@gmail.com
Pretty good. Reminds me a little of Santana playing tunes with
changes, and it's better than SRV playing tunes with changes.
Rick Stone
> This is one of the, if not the, best version of this song I've ever
> heard. Now TAKE A WALK down to the record store and buy it!
You're joking about this right?
--
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
Website: http://www.rickstone.com
Recordings: http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
EPK: http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Jeff
wrote:
Reminds me of Santana playing Europa.
If you listen to this as a jazz guitarist and think of Clapton as a
guitarist playing a tune that is usually a jazz tune, then you're not
going to think much of it. If you listen to it as a listener of music
and Clapton as an artist it's pretty good.
Mark Cleary
baseball. A great basketball player he may be but a far cry from being able
to play even minor league baseball. Clapton certainly played through the
tune with no problems but I have no urge to keep listening to to mine it for
its breath of guitar work. I was not to thrilled with the vocal either but
that is just my taste.
--
Deacon Mark Cleary
Epiphany Church
"Rick Stone" <rick...@rickstone.com> wrote in message
news:i8tebp$4ai$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
suckymusician
Jazz snobbery at its best:)
Dave
It's true about SRV--what little I heard of him playing on anything w/
changes was pretty embarassing. But here, EC just noodles in Bmi and doesn't
even address the changes.
TD
6fingers
Clapton is playing some real tasteful lines here. Someone like him
could hang with anybody as proved by this excellent bebop recording.
Now TAKE A WALK you lame ass jive turkeys!
Frisbieinstein
The other day wondered whether Frank Zappa ever played over anything
with changes. He almost always played over a one-chord thing and
rarely a simple 1 IV vamp. I can't recall even a blues.
David J. Littleboy
"Frisbieinstein" <patmp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f1e0d4df-7e14-48c7...@n32g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
He plays one blues-ish thing (It Ain't Necessarily the St. James Infirmary)
on "Frank Zappa: Guitar".
--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Graham
admit though it worked better than I expected.
Graham
terrasbeest
' Keef ' certainly never lost any sleep over this one :
http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=10:gxfwxqrgldje
imloafin
EC has played/sang 'Somewhere Over The Rainbow'
and 'Moon River' during concert shows.
Seems EC has broadened his song selections,
indicating an appreciation for a wide variety of music.
BTW, on occasion, he plays a vintage,
P90 equipped Gibson archtop. Perhaps
its that guitar on the solo in 'Autumn Leaves'.
Graham
read an interview a while back where his guitar tech. said he has
about 20 different guitars on stage, a different one for each song, a
roadie to change them over for him, another guy who pre-bends the
strings for him on every guitar before each gig, tunes them just
before he needs them on the next song, etc. etc. I know this is
pretty standard for rock gods, but I can't help comparing this
rigmarole to Albert Collins working magic with just one battered old
Telecaster with a gaffer-taped capo stuck on it.
Also (and I know this is not Clapton's fault) I used to work for a guy
who worshipped EC and went to all his annual Albert Hall gigs. One
year he saw Eric playing with Buddy Guy so I asked him about it
afterwards. He said 'Buddy who?' I said 'That other blues guitarist
who was on stage with him'. He said 'Oh yeah, there was some old
black guy but he was useless and I didn't know who he was'.
I started trying to explain some basic blues history to him, that guys
like Buddy were actually Clapton's heroes and he learned from them,
etc. but it was a complete waste of time. As far as he was concerned,
there was only one blues guitarist on the planet, he was Eric, and he
was God. No-one else even needed to be considered. I know Clapton is
not to blame for this kind of blind worship, but it does influence my
judgement a bit!
Graham
TD
People tend to coincide with what they most often listen to.
-TD
tom walls
> This reminds me of when Michael Jordan decided that he was going to play
> baseball. A great basketball player he may be but a far cry from being able
> to play even minor league baseball. Clapton certainly played through the
> tune with no problems but I have no urge to keep listening to to mine it for
> its breath of guitar work. I was not to thrilled with the vocal either but
> that is just my taste.
I'm listening to this clip and thinking "pee-yew!" and my lovely wife
walks through the room and immediately begins humming along. She kept
humming that tune all afternoon. Bless her heart.
MQ
Bob Russell
As far as Clapton's playing on that goes, he played just about what
I'd have expected him to play. He's just pulling a Rod Stewart. He
said what he had to say on that tune given the vocabulary at his
disposal, which didn't interest me much. Maybe an EC fan who doesn't
know beans about jazz might be led to check out some jazz artists as a
result of hearing this, though. A similar thing happened with blues in
the Sixties, after all.
I thought the rhythm section was really monotonous, but then again,
there probably wasn't much to be gained from switching gears; it's not
like they're going to prod him into Coltrane mode or anything like
that.
David J. Littleboy
"Graham" <grah...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:776c81ad-56d8-4815...@x23g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
Am I the only one who's grossed out by that horrifically treacly orchestra?
(To a certain extent this is a serious question: I really despise that sort
of orchestration. But a lot of people like playing with orchestras, so to a
certain extent this is me. Interestingly, it's somewhat Clapton's fault,
because I listened to a lot of live Cream as a kid, and decided that any
group larger than a trio was unnecessarily large.)
Paul K
I kinda had the same reaction at first, but as it went along and the
strings got sappy and the drums monotonous, I figured this is more
likely to chase EC fans away from jazz then draw them in. Nothing
terribly wrong with his solo in my opinion, though.
--
Paul K
http://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboy
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=240975
http://mypage.iu.edu/~pkirk/
TD
I agree, but even more than a "Rod Stewart", he is pulling a "Bob
Dylan", which amounts to *strategy* in enabling themselves to continue
making 'long bread' by ever tricking the public via subliminally (by
way of a bull in a china shop) toying with changing bags. Of course,
some of them simply turn themselves into douche bags in the process,
but hell...law of averages and the ignorance of the multitudes compels
such "artists" to press forward and merely wave any notion of personal
shame or embarrassment. "De Monayy, Count de Monayy."
Eric made a real fool out of himself at the George Harrison Tribute
(in my opinion) when he tried to "jam" on an Indian piece conducted by
a very stressed and skeptical daughter( It was so very visible on her
face) of Ravi. I mean these Indian musicians spend lifetimes of
humility and study to accomplish their music, and what, EC plays his
tired re-worked Albert King licks over super legit ragas? And I dig EC
as a person ( met him a few times when he came backstage at concerts
of artists I had been working with, just as I met Sophia Loren, Jackie
Kennedy and Jack Nicholson the same way) and in his own bag. And so we
also have to consider that marketing powers that be may be behind the
madness, but still what is tangible is tangible.
Gee, am I rambling, well hell, I must have "rambling on my mind." No,
he did not have to pull a "Coltrane" backdrop (funny even as a
notion), but he should have used all jazz musicians on that tune,
changed the key (cause his voice don't make it, baby) and had some
one else at least work out an improv for himself. I mean some one
obviously took a stab at partial arranging on that cut. But as you
say, maybe by some freak of nature of proxy, meat-heads will begin
listening to standards, which can lead to who or what, Tony Bennett?
As a hypothetical, what kind of world would be living in today if ole
EC had spent his formative years lifting licks and lines off a Bud
Powell's recordings (even the shitty moments) instead of the Kings,
Guys and Johnsons et al?) I tell what kind of world...the very same
world with a broke EC. I must say, I do take my hat off to The Stones
for at least using Sonny Rollins and Ernie Watts on some of their
stuff. So, Eric, if you are going to "step out" take one giant step
for mankind and add Chick or Herbie the next time you decide to record
End of a Love Affair.
-TD ( a nobody)
Rick Stone
> This reminds me of when Michael Jordan decided that he was going to play
> baseball. A great basketball player he may be but a far cry from being
> able to play even minor league baseball. Clapton certainly played
> through the tune with no problems but I have no urge to keep listening
> to to mine it for its breath of guitar work. I was not to thrilled with
> the vocal either but that is just my taste.
I'm thinking that if he played this for a 2nd semester undergraduate
jury at Hofstra (no conservatory, just a liberal arts school) he'd get
about a C. If he played it for an audition to an actually conservatory
level school (Berklee, Julliard, New School, Manhattan School of Music,
take your pick) I doubt that he'd get accepted.
Bob Russell
True. Yet he's made way more money and garnered more fame than 99.97%
of the graduates of any of those places. Interesting world we live in,
isn't it?
TD
Yet, if certain pedagogical institutions were hurting for cash ( verge
of going under), they'd make him an honorary professor in a heart
beat.
-TD
pmfan57
If you ever heard Clapton talk about those guys, which he does, very
publicly, all the time, you would certainly not hold it against him.
The careers of many of those blues guys were extended and expanded by
fans of the British players and the fact that those guys, like Clapton
and the Rolling Stones, talked about them all the time. The American
audience for American blues musicians was declining as blues was no
longer that popular among its original listening audience.
I think the Stones appeared on one American TV show in the 60s only on
the condition that at least some of their heroes also be asked to
appear on the show. They assumed everyone in America would know who
Muddy Waters was.
southtexasguitarist
No, I don't agree. I've heard much less qualified players get into
music conservatories.
southtexasguitarist
wrote:
Come on! It's not like we get a lot of money, household fame or even
groupies, at least let us feel superior!
southtexasguitarist
> The rhythm section sounds like a Band In A Box thing.
Band in a Box is actually hipper.
southtexasguitarist
FWIW I've read his autobio and heard him say in interviews that his
circle was listening to all kinds of American music including a lot of
jazz, so it's not like he wasn't aware of the tunes coming up.
unknownguitarplayer
> From his latest CD apparently:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQlFOX0YKlQ
>
> He doesn't really play much until about 3:38.
>
> I don't think jazz guitarists need to lose any sleep over it.
>
> Graham
Sounds like week 1 jazz ensemble at (insert community college name
here). However, it also sounds like that cut might not have been
meant as a jazz version, but rather, as a take on the kind of weepy
original (just what the world needed).
Then again, when he plays toward the end, was the bridge really so
challenging that they needed to skip it? And the rhythm section
sounds like the old (pre-sampled sounds) BIAB. But based on the
comments, none of this matters, cause his fans seem to love it.
Maybe EC and Rod Stewart should put together a tour/album of like-
minded high-profile folks. They could call it "Declining Standards",
or perhaps "Diminished Returns". That would be one hep combo!
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Completely different ( homage) subject, though. This thread attends to
another subject. The musical criteria was the common "thread."
-TD
lukejazz
Yea, including me for one ha ha
Luke
rakmanenuff
> True. Yet he's made way more money and garnered more fame than 99.97%
> of the graduates of any of those places. Interesting world we live in,
> isn't it?
EC's secret to success was to be one of the *least authentic*
blues guitarists to come out of the UK at the time,
which half explains his general pop appeal. Like a straight
sanitized pop version of blues.
Elevator style Autumn Leaves with husky vocals
and string section is just his way of saying he knows
he's too old to rock. "Do I have to play that guitar solo?"
"Yes, Eric, the fans want it."
Bill Ribas
snobby, and this is what I'd expect from him, which is basically playing his
standard blues licks over the song. The vocals are scary, in a hobo kind of
way, and the backing music sounds like it came out of the 60's.
"Graham" <grah...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
news:776c81ad-56d8-4815...@x23g2000vba.googlegroups.com...
> From his latest CD apparently:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQlFOX0YKlQ
>
> He doesn't really play much until about 3:38.
>
> I don't think jazz guitarists need to lose any sleep over it.
>
>
> Graham
>
>
> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus
> signature database 5520 (20101011) __________
>
> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
>
> http://www.eset.com
>
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>
__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5520 (20101011) __________
The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.
TD
Much.
And I can see the new wall graffiti as it reads: EC HAS CLAMMED.
-TD
Tim Berens
I liked it.
The performance captures the song well, vividly painting the picture
of "Les Feuilles Mortes", the original French language version of the
song.
And kudos to Clapton for stretching his wings at this stage of life.
He's exploring new music and taking chances when he could just keep
playing Layla over and over for adoring fans.
Keep recording, Eric. I'll listen.
Tim
http://timberens.com/yourhost/orchestrator.htm
tom walls
Boldest post of the day award.
Joey Goldstein
> From his latest CD apparently:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQlFOX0YKlQ
>
>
> I don't think jazz guitarists need to lose any sleep over it.
>
>
> Graham
I heard this the other day.
I'd say it's more like Eric Clapton *sings* Autumn Leaves.
He does play a solo too but it's not like an extended improvisatory
statement. Mostly mellow diatonic noodling.
But he's a very musical noodler.
He also does How Deep Is The Ocean on the same disc, also in a similar
run-of-the-mill un-jazzy style.
There's also a few New Orleans style tunes on the record and he's
actually got Wynton Marsalis as a side-man.
These seem like odd choices to me for both EC and WM.
I'd rather hear EC playing like he used to play in Cream or with John
Mayall, speaking for myself.
But you've got to hand it to him. He's a masterful musician within his
own sphere.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
Joey Goldstein
I think that Berklee has already given him an honorary degree of some sort.
Joey Goldstein
> On 10/10/2010 2:48 PM, Graham wrote:
>> From his latest CD apparently:
>>
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQlFOX0YKlQ
>>
>> He doesn't really play much until about 3:38.
>>
>> I don't think jazz guitarists need to lose any sleep over it.
>>
>>
>> Graham
>
> I heard this the other day.
> I'd say it's more like Eric Clapton *sings* Autumn Leaves.
> He does play a solo too but it's not like an extended improvisatory
> statement. Mostly mellow diatonic noodling.
> But he's a very musical noodler.
>
> He also does How Deep Is The Ocean on the same disc, also in a similar
> run-of-the-mill un-jazzy style.
> There's also a few New Orleans style tunes on the record and he's
> actually got Wynton Marsalis as a side-man.
> These seem like odd choices to me for both EC and WM.
>
> I'd rather hear EC playing like he used to play in Cream or with John
> Mayall, speaking for myself.
> But you've got to hand it to him. He's a masterful musician within his
> own sphere.
>
Also...
I've always thought that rock n' roll and, by extension, the whole
popular-blues movement (including the British rockers of the 60s) to
have been based on a revolt against the excesses of modern jazz.
Many of the early rockers were fairly competent jazz players. But their
potential audiences were turned off by the intellectualization of jazz
that the beboppers had accomplished.
"I ain't got nothin' 'gainst modern jazz.
Unless they try to play it too darn fast.
You lose the rhythm of the melody.
Until it sounds just like a symphony.
that's why i go for that rock n' roll music."
By stripping music back down to its basics, both harmonically and
rhythmically, they found a much broader and very appreciative audience.
IMO Clapton, on this disc, continues this attitude of stripping down
these more harmonically complex tunes and I think we'll find that it
will reach a very broad audience.
I just wish he'd done it with a bit more soul and finesse.
This stuff sounds like Lawrence Welk did the arrangements.
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Lawrence was hipper. And Eric would have to be stripping up, not down.
He is great in his bag. This recording is piss poor and he should have
had better players on it to pull it off.
-TD
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Berklee *was* hurting at one point.
-TD
pmfan57
He listened to Louis Armstrong a lot. And he says, for example he
likes Clifford Brown moreso than Miles Davis, which means he knows who
those guys are. These guys listened to jazz because that's what
people of their generation listened too, in addition to blues.
Doesn't mean they're going to be jazz players.
But you can be sure Clapton heard Billie Holliday sing all these
songs. Keith Richard listens to Count Basie at home, as opposed to,
say Yardbirds. That's what they say in interviews anyway and there's
no reason they would make that up.
pmfan57
It's hard to tell from the audio quality on youtube, but the drums
sound kind of strange. Still, I think he's trying to do something
different, rather than just "Rod Stewart with strings" type of thing.
He wants to put his own stamp on it. His guitar solo sounds good to
me. He's not trying to play jazz at all. He's playing his way over
this song.
Joey Goldstein
> On Oct 11, 1:28 pm, Joey Goldstein<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote:
>> This stuff sounds like Lawrence Welk did the arrangements.
>>
> Lawrence was hipper.
lol
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Eric and Miles were known enemies. Miles was jealous of Cream's fame
and money. Even if Eric dug Mile's playing (by my logic, musically I'd
say he should have preferred Miles over Clifford...Miles turning
things away from Dizzy and used tons of space) he may have denied it.
Eric's playing (simple as it is) is way closer to Mile's approach than
Clifford's. As for Satchmo? EVERYONE dug Satchmo.
Many of us are *not basing our negative criticism of EC's butchering
of AL on the premise of jazz*. We are basing it on music; period. His
phrasing of singing the melody is also messed up. More homework on his
part was needed, plus a much more competent rhythm section. The guy
comping ( I know it could not have been Eric, should have been
executed at first light along with the bass player. This is some of
'us gizes'" beef. Go listen to Streisand singing AL (non-jazz as can
be) and then go back to EC, for a mere glimpse into reality. Joe, says
that Eric is playing his way "over the changes." I say he is fumbling
his own way under the changes. In fact he is playing over one change.
No wonder these cats pick minor tunes. Minor is easy, living is hard.
I *love Eric's stuff in his bag*. He is a terrific songwriter too. I
admire his success and personality.
-TD
Kevin Van Sant
<grah...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
<776c81ad-56d8-4815...@x23g2000vba.googlegroups.com> :
>From his latest CD apparently:
>
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQlFOX0YKlQ
>
>He doesn't really play much until about 3:38.
>
>I don't think jazz guitarists need to lose any sleep over it.
>
>
>Graham
I don't think this song is a bad vehicle for him to play with his
vocabulary. For what it is he sounds fine. I think the approach to
the rhythm section is about as lame as can be, but on the other hand
if the band was swinging to any degree I think Clapton's playing would
start to sound much more out of place.
________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
all my CDs in Mp3 form at:
http://www.kevinvansant.com
rpjazzguitar
before.
The notes he chose for his solo seemed carefully selected from within
his usual vocabulary. I don't need to hear it again, but there's
plenty of great music I don't listen to twice.
My only negative comment is about the faux strings. Sounded bad to me.
Graham
Here she is whispering a tune by Russ Freeman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNd9dhegw2E
Graham
suckymusician
Performers
Eric Clapton – vocals, guitar, mandolin
Doyle Bramhall II – guitar, percussion, vocals, vocal arrangement
JJ Cale – guitar, vocals
Jim Keltner – drums, percussion
Willie Weeks – bass guitar, double bass
Walt Richmond – piano, keyboards, hammond organ, wurlitzer electric
piano
Derek Trucks – guitar, slide guitar
Paul Carrack – hammond organ
Sereca Henderson – organ
London Session Orchestra – strings
Allen Toussaint – piano
Wynton Marsalis – trumpet
Kim Wilson – harmonica on "Judgement Day" and "Can't Hold Out Much
Longer"
Sheryl Crow – vocals
Nikka Costa – backing vocals
Terry Evans – backing vocals
Willie Green, Jr. – backing vocals
Lynn Mabry – backing vocals
Arnold McCuller – backing vocals
Debra Parsons – backing vocals
Steve Winwood
Rick Stone
> True. Yet he's made way more money and garnered more fame than 99.97%
> of the graduates of any of those places. Interesting world we live in,
> isn't it?
People like things that don't challenge or threaten them too much. Most
of our society is in a way musically retarded. They started off
listening to rock, most of which is the musical equivalent of Dr.
Seusse, and never really moved past that. It's kind of a shame
considering that there's so much more to music, but that's where our
society is at nowadays (now up go the shields in anticipation of the
coming flames).
Rick Stone
> On Oct 11, 10:00 am, Rick Stone<rickst...@rickstone.com> wrote:
>> I'm thinking that if he played this for a 2nd semester undergraduate
>> jury at Hofstra (no conservatory, just a liberal arts school) he'd get
>> about a C. If he played it for an audition to an actually conservatory
>> level school (Berklee, Julliard, New School, Manhattan School of Music,
>> take your pick) I doubt that he'd get accepted.
>
> of going under), they'd make him an honorary professor in a heart
> beat.
Gotta love capitalism, eh?
Rick Stone
> No, I don't agree. I've heard much less qualified players get into
> music conservatories.
Lately? A couple years ago a VERY talented kid I was teaching put
together a very impressive demo and application, and was rejected by
Berklee. I honestly couldn't believe it. He was 17, and playing WAY
better than what Clapton is doing here.
Tim McNamara
<a95804ea-2e2f-4e8b...@g18g2000vbn.googlegroups.com>,
TD <tonyde...@gmail.com> wrote:
> As a hypothetical, what kind of world would be living in today if ole
> EC had spent his formative years lifting licks and lines off a Bud
> Powell's recordings (even the shitty moments) instead of the Kings,
> Guys and Johnsons et al?)
What a wonderful world that would be.
--
That'll put marzipan in your pie plate, Bingo.
Tim McNamara
"David J. Littleboy" <dav...@gol.com> wrote:
> Am I the only one who's grossed out by that horrifically treacly orchestra?
Nope. I hate it with just about anything, not just EC. There's a
Russell Malone album with great playing and those horrible strings, too.
The ghost of Mantovani walks (and arranges).
southtexasguitarist
Well, if the prospective student has money or a way to get it I don't
see the school turning it down. I don't know how "lately" you want to
go but I can remember several students who I didn't think should have
been admitted when I was teaching at a school like that in the midwest
a few years ago.
TD
I am interested to know. Rejected for what, admittance? Or
scholarship? I know of no situations where Berklee turns down a paying
student.The school is a money-maker, and that includes 'shake your
money maker.' Educate me, please, I am curious. Or Berklee profs,
please hip me to the possibilities involved.
-TD
TD
wrote:
Outside of Allen and Wynton, that explains it.
-TD
TD
> On Sun, 10 Oct 2010 11:48:38 -0700 (PDT), Graham<graham...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote in message
>
> <776c81ad-56d8-4815-9731-403c2eb5b...@x23g2000vba.googlegroups.com> :
>
> >From his latest CD apparently:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQlFOX0YKlQ
>
> >He doesn't really play much until about 3:38.
>
> >I don't think jazz guitarists need to lose any sleep over it.
>
> >Graham
>
> I don't think this song is a bad vehicle for him to play with his
> vocabulary. For what it is he sounds fine. I think the approach to
> the rhythm section is about as lame as can be, but on the other hand
> if the band was swinging to any degree I think Clapton's playing would
> start to sound much more out of place.
>
> ________________________________________
> Kevin Van Sant
>
> all my CDs in Mp3 form at:http://www.kevinvansant.com
The band did not have to swing to have a much better rhythm section
venue and much more polished and professional cut then what that thing
represents. That cut is a sin. On the other hand, the *right jazz
players* can make any Johnny One Note sound fantastic and far from
distanced. I think I'll continue using that, "far from distanced."
-TD
David J. Littleboy
"Rick Stone" <rick...@rickstone.com> wrote:
> On 10/11/2010 10:10 AM, Bob Russell wrote:
>> True. Yet he's made way more money and garnered more fame than 99.97%
>> of the graduates of any of those places. Interesting world we live in,
>> isn't it?
>
> People like things that don't challenge or threaten them too much.
But Clapton started out (well, post-Mayall) being one of the most
challenging musicians around.
I think he earned his fame with that gig. After that, he wrote some good
songs. He's kept up his chops, puts on a good show for his fans, gets to
play with great players.
> Most of our society is in a way musically retarded. They started off
> listening to rock, most of which is the musical equivalent of Dr. Seusse,
> and never really moved past that.
I'll politely disagree with this. Rock was fine in the '68 to '72 period,
but went overly commercial after that. Early rock and folk-rock were
inventive and energetic. That it never went anywhere is, of course,
problematic. But things were pretty amazing in that period (Cream, Hendrix,
Traffic, Velvet Underground).
> It's kind of a shame considering that there's so much more to music, but
> that's where our society is at nowadays (now up go the shields in
> anticipation of the coming flames).
No need to point any shields in this direction; as I said: rock went
commercial and died around '72.
--
David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
335
> On Oct 11, 10:00 am, Rick Stone <rickst...@rickstone.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 10/10/2010 8:54 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>
> > > This reminds me of when Michael Jordan decided that he was going to play
> > > baseball. A great basketball player he may be but a far cry from being
> > > able to play even minor league baseball. Clapton certainly played
> > > through the tune with no problems but I have no urge to keep listening
> > > to to mine it for its breath of guitar work. I was not to thrilled with
> > > the vocal either but that is just my taste.
>
> > jury at Hofstra (no conservatory, just a liberal arts school) he'd get
> > about a C. If he played it for an audition to an actually conservatory
> > level school (Berklee, Julliard, New School, Manhattan School of Music,
> > take your pick) I doubt that he'd get accepted.
>
> > Musically Yours,
> > Rick Stone
> > Website:http://www.rickstone.com
> > Recordings:http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
> > Videos:http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
> > Myspace:http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
>
> True. Yet he's made way more money and garnered more fame than 99.97%
> of the graduates of any of those places. Interesting world we live in,
> isn't it?
I think the correct number is 100%.
Paul K
carefully. There's good and bad rock music being made today, as well as
good and bad jazz (here's http://www.kennedyjazz.com/ an example of
awful jazz which includes some of my favorite musicians).
Of course we're mostly discussing taste, so there is no correct answer.
But one thing you can say for pop/rock is that it rejects the previous
prevailing style more quickly than Jazz does, mostly because it is music
for the young whose identities are tied to the prevailing youth culture.
That keeps it fresh in a way that is harder for Jazz, especially since a
large chunk of Jazz fans are conservative in their tastes. Not to say
that there isn't great fresh jazz coming out, just that it is harder to
find.
--
Paul K
http://www.youtube.com/user/fibrationboy
http://mypage.iu.edu/~pkirk/
Tim McNamara
"David J. Littleboy" <dav...@gol.com> wrote:
The year "Workingman's Dead" and "American Beauty" came out, featuring
some actually lovely songs and IIRC "Fillmore East". Post that, the
Dead still put out years of decently written music (with unfortunately
rather uneven performances due to the effects of drugs and alcohol).
But there were still bright spots in rock- Pink Floyd, Frank Zappa, The
Band, Hot Tuna... MTV was the death knell for rock music as an actual
art form IMHO.
Tim McNamara
<7edac32e-2a4e-4756...@g17g2000yqo.googlegroups.com>,
335 <335p...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 11, 9:10 am, Bob Russell <bobruss...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 11, 10:00 am, Rick Stone <rickst...@rickstone.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > On 10/10/2010 8:54 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
> >
> > > > This reminds me of when Michael Jordan decided that he was
> > > > going to play baseball. A great basketball player he may be but
> > > > a far cry from being able to play even minor league baseball.
> > > > Clapton certainly played through the tune with no problems but
> > > > I have no urge to keep listening to to mine it for its breath
> > > > of guitar work. I was not to thrilled with the vocal either but
> > > > that is just my taste.
> >
> > > I'm thinking that if he played this for a 2nd semester
> > > undergraduate jury at Hofstra (no conservatory, just a liberal
> > > arts school) he'd get about a C. If he played it for an audition
> > > to an actually conservatory level school (Berklee, Julliard, New
> > > School, Manhattan School of Music, take your pick) I doubt that
> > > he'd get accepted.
> >
> > True. Yet he's made way more money and garnered more fame than
> > 99.97% of the graduates of any of those places. Interesting world
> > we live in, isn't it?
>
> I think the correct number is 100%.
Although by the end of the 1950s/early 1960s, Miles Davis was making
$200,000 a year playing jazz, according to his autobiography. Corrected
for inflation, $200,000 in 1960 dollars is about $1.44 million in 2009
dollars.
Frisbieinstein
>
>
> EC has played/sang 'Somewhere Over The Rainbow'
> and 'Moon River' during concert shows.
>
Over The Rainbow is the most popular song going, thanks to the great
Eva Cassidy. Even Keith Jarrett does it.
Frisbieinstein
> I do take my hat off to The Stones
> for at least using Sonny Rollins on some of their
> stuff.
! Which tune(s) was that?
Frisbieinstein
> On 10/10/2010 8:54 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
>
> > This reminds me of when Michael Jordan decided that he was going to play
> > baseball. A great basketball player he may be but a far cry from being
> > able to play even minor league baseball. Clapton certainly played
> > through the tune with no problems but I have no urge to keep listening
> > to to mine it for its breath of guitar work. I was not to thrilled with
> > the vocal either but that is just my taste.
>
> I'm thinking that if he played this for a 2nd semester undergraduate
> jury at Hofstra (no conservatory, just a liberal arts school) he'd get
> about a C. If he played it for an audition to an actually conservatory
> level school (Berklee, Julliard, New School, Manhattan School of Music,
> take your pick) I doubt that he'd get accepted.
>
The musical level at Berkelee is quite modest.
Frisbieinstein
> From his latest CD apparently:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQlFOX0YKlQ
>
> He doesn't really play much until about 3:38.
>
> I don't think jazz guitarists need to lose any sleep over it.
>
> Graham
Very nice, expressive playing in the BB King style.
Johnny Asia
It's a pop song, why should EC be expected to play it like jazz
players do?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autumn_Leaves_(song)
Autumn Leaves" is a much-recorded popular song. Originally it was a
1945 French song "Les feuilles mortes" (literally "The Dead Leaves")
with music by Joseph Kosma and lyrics by poet Jacques Prévert.
On December 24, 1950, French singer Edith Piaf rendered both French
and English versions of this song on the radio programme The Big Show,
hosted by Tallulah Bankhead
TD
Sonny and Ernie were paid big bucks to tour with the Stones. I do not
know if they were on recordings ( do a google maybe?), but it is quite
possible. Charlie Watts may have been key.
-TD
Rick Stone
Tony,
I knew of several students who were rejected that same year. A couple
were just average players, but the one I mentioned was pretty
exceptional. I was VERY surprised that this kid didn't get in and spoke
with Larry Baione about it (head of the guitar department who I've known
for 32 years). He told me that they were getting SO MANY applicants,
that they had become MUCH pickier about who they were accepting,
especially on guitar. Berklee is not like it was 20 or 30 (or even 10!)
years ago.
--
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
Website: http://www.rickstone.com
Recordings: http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
TD
Nobody expected him to. What nobody seems to notice is that the rock
players on that cut are *trying* to swing in a jazz fashion. There is
where the lameness is transparent like a mofo. Playing the tune
straight with more adequate non-jazz players would have been much
better. But no worries, we never underestimate the musical tastes of
the American public. As for standards, thousands of standards were not
meant to be jazz. The French are very advanced at bio-technology, in
fact.
-TD
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
I guess a few of my students were lucky. A few profs there recommend
me from time to time to prime certain tri-state candidates. The profs
spot them often during their primer five-weel course. I get them right
away on reading and knowing the modes ( as Berklee is mode crazy) and
chord melody and improv as balanced as possible. Berklee seems to
frown on non-readers from the get-go. That's interesting to know, what
you say. Many of their students are from Asia these days.
-TD
Johnny Asia
wrote:
>
>Nobody expected him to. What nobody seems to notice is that the rock
>players on that cut are *trying* to swing in a jazz fashion. >>
In 1955 Roger Williams made the song a number one hit in the United
States, the only piano instrumental to reach number one and remaining
in that position for four weeks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cwXzT-NEgE&feature=related
Here's a later version, I think he's trying to swing on this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHCb0RvjrLM
Frisbieinstein
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I guess a few of my students were lucky. A few profs there recommend
> me from time to time to prime certain tri-state candidates. The profs
> spot them often during their primer five-weel course. I get them right
> away on reading and knowing the modes ( as Berklee is mode crazy) and
> chord melody and improv as balanced as possible. Berklee seems to
> frown on non-readers from the get-go. That's interesting to know, what
> you say. Many of their students are from Asia these days.
>
> -TD
Aha, that explains it. The live music scene seems to be in good shape
in Japan. Jazz gets a lot more respect over there, and that is where
all the good new players are coming from. It's pretty much impossible
to make it as a fine arts musician in the US.
Tony Royster Jr. might be the most talented trap drummer ever and I
saw a tape of him backing up a rapper. Boom thwap boom thwap.
southtexasguitarist
>
> - Show quoted text -
Good for Berklee to be in that position; I don't think that's typical
of academia in general right now. I had a student get into Berklee
this fall, but he's been laying the groundwork for a while, taking
summer sessions while he was still in high school.
southtexasguitarist
> From his latest CD apparently:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQlFOX0YKlQ
>
> He doesn't really play much until about 3:38.
>
> I don't think jazz guitarists need to lose any sleep over it.
>
> Graham
So has anyone checked out How Deep is the Ocean from the same record?
Has Wynton Marsalis on it.
335
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> Good for Berklee to be in that position; I don't think that's typical
> of academia in general right now. I had a student get into Berklee
> this fall, but he's been laying the groundwork for a while, taking
>
> - Show quoted text -
is Berklee still the school of choice for aspiring guitar players? I
would think that with all the great players around and the
proliferation of jazz programs, that Berklee would just be one of the
pack now.
335
> From his latest CD apparently:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQlFOX0YKlQ
>
> He doesn't really play much until about 3:38.
>
> I don't think jazz guitarists need to lose any sleep over it.
>
> Graham
I read in an interview where EC said he could never be a jazz musician
because he hears guitar as mostly happening in the blues and blues
boxes on the guitar and that is what he has trained his hands and ears
to do. He admitted if I remember correctly that he does not hear music
and guitar in particular as scale possibilities against chords. He
does not aspire to do that so I don't think it's quite fair to judge
him according to that criteria.
TD
Now ya talkin. THAT cut is 1,000x better than the Autumn Leaves cut.
Perhaps, it was Wynton's input, as besides him blowing on it, to
suggest *how to approach the tune for Eric* (meaning doing a vulcan
mind meld with the standard and Eric's style, scope, etc). A New
Orelans, quasi-minor bluesy-jug-band durge quality made it happen.
And, perhaps Eric was inspired musically, 'cause his licks were
harmonically much hipper. Sounded like a partial note glitch
inadvertently made by Wynton at the very end where he may have thought
he was going to play, but changed his mind. That should have been
edited out, if I heard the thing correctly (not certain).
Autumn Leaves should have been approached with the same wisdom in
mind. It clearly was not. "I give it an 88, I like the beat". {For all
of you geezers out there who recall the original Dick Clark American
Bandstand.
-TD
Nil
rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz:
Sonny plays the solo on the song "Waiting for a Friend". Maybe some
others.
Joey Goldstein
The kids getting accepted to 1st year at Humber College now are already
as knowledgeable and competent as I was going into 3rd year at Berklee
back in the early 70s. Hell, my Intro students (the guys who were not
accepted into 1st year) last year were killin'.
I went to Berklee to learn how to read, to learn my scales and theory,
to learn how to play chord melodies. Most of my classmates were in the
same boat. Those things are on the entrance requirements now for the
audition at most post-secondary music schools.
Toronto is the hub of Canada and Humber is the probably the best music
school in the country for both commercial music and jazz. So we get the
pick of the litter.
At Mohawk College, where I am no longer employed btw (I taught there
from 1986 to last spring), it's drastically different. Most of these
guys have no business being anywhere near a post-secondary level music
school. Yet their audition requirements are almost exactly the same as
those for Humber. I was never part of the audition process there. If I
had been, there would have been a lot less guitar students I think.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
pmfan57
Wow. That sounds much better. None of that strange drum sound like
on Autumn Leaves.
southtexasguitarist
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > Good for Berklee to be in that position; I don't think that's typical
> > of academia in general right now. I had a student get into Berklee
> > this fall, but he's been laying the groundwork for a while, taking
> > summer sessions while he was still in high school.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> is Berklee still the school of choice for aspiring guitar players? I
> would think that with all the great players around and the
> proliferation of jazz programs, that Berklee would just be one of the
> pack now.
Well, in my understanding what is different about Berklee and a few
other schools is you can study contemporary music as well as jazz,
whereas in most colleges it's classical and jazz and that's it. IOW,
you can take a funk rhythms class or a class about Jimi Hendrix and
Jeff Beck at Berklee, which you probably couldn't do at say, the
University of North Texas.
matt
i always think of this clip from Jailhouse Rock where Elvis rejects
the jazz of his girlfriends parents:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V89yuqBfsq8
while this isn't a watershed moment or anything, it's an example of
how it's 'rock and roll' to be against jazz because it's the music of
your parents - not an outdated notion unfortunately.
JoeJazz2000
> the condition that at least some of their heroes also be asked to
> appear on the show. They assumed everyone in America would know who
> Muddy Waters was.- Hide quoted text -
>
It was Shindig, and they brought on Howlin' Wolf. The Stones did play
Little Red Rooster, among others, and Wolf played How Many Years.
matt
this was a response to joeys post quoted below:
Also...
I've always thought that rock n' roll and, by extension, the whole
popular-blues movement (including the British rockers of the 60s) to
have been based on a revolt against the excesses of modern jazz.
Many of the early rockers were fairly competent jazz players. But
their
potential audiences were turned off by the intellectualization of jazz
that the beboppers had accomplished.
"I ain't got nothin' 'gainst modern jazz.
Unless they try to play it too darn fast.
You lose the rhythm of the melody.
Until it sounds just like a symphony.
that's why i go for that rock n' roll music."
By stripping music back down to its basics, both harmonically and
rhythmically, they found a much broader and very appreciative
audience.
IMO Clapton, on this disc, continues this attitude of stripping down
these more harmonically complex tunes and I think we'll find that it
will reach a very broad audience.
I just wish he'd done it with a bit more soul and finesse.
This stuff sounds like Lawrence Welk did the arrangements.
Rick Stone
> is Berklee still the school of choice for aspiring guitar players? I
> would think that with all the great players around and the
> proliferation of jazz programs, that Berklee would just be one of the
> pack now.
I'd say that Berklee is definitely still "A" school of choice. Yes,
there are so many now. But Berklee's been at it for a long time, and
they've got a VERY organized guitar department with high standards.
Other good choices I know of are mainly in New York, and if somebody's
serious about playing jazz, NYC is still the Mecca. So you've got the
New School, NYU, Manhattan School of Music and City College (a real
bargain for NYC residents).
--
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
Website: http://www.rickstone.com
Recordings: http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
lukejazz
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > > Good for Berklee to be in that position; I don't think that's typical
> > > of academia in general right now. I had a student get into Berklee
> > > this fall, but he's been laying the groundwork for a while, taking
> > > summer sessions while he was still in high school.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > is Berklee still the school of choice for aspiring guitar players? I
> > would think that with all the great players around and the
> > proliferation of jazz programs, that Berklee would just be one of the
> > pack now.
>
> Well, in my understanding what is different about Berklee and a few
> other schools is you can study contemporary music as well as jazz,
> whereas in most colleges it's classical and jazz and that's it. IOW,
> you can take a funk rhythms class or a class about Jimi Hendrix and
> Jeff Beck at Berklee, which you probably couldn't do at say, the
> University of North Texas.
That's great to hear - had nothing like that when I was there of
course (77-80) and almost everyone was there for jazz, for which I had
no background and little desire.
I signed up for a guitar transcription class one time with John
Amaral. We were all to submit the name of the song/solo we wanted to
work on and when I announced I wanted to transcribe a Johnny Winter
solo, he and several students laughed out loud. Needless to say I
dropped the class. I had (and still have) a lot more respect for
Johnny Winter than John Amaral. Of course JW could turn out to be a
douchebag and I'd never know ha ha. Somehow I doubt it.
Luke
southtexasguitarist
>
> - Show quoted text -
I can't vouch for Johnny Winter as a person one way or the other but
he was one of the people responsible for getting me started on guitar,
along with Clapton, Hendrix, and Jeff Beck.
335
lol...I took that class around the same time. I remember one day we
were sitting around in the class listening to George Harrison's
double head/solo on And Your Bird Can Sing. It was a nice way to spend
some time, I always liked that song, but I recall thinking " geeeez
my parents are paying for me to listen to the Beatles?" Anyway, I was
too clueless to drop the class. My first attempt was Jim Hall with Red
Mitchell -Fly me to the moon - I think, and I was totally out of my
league. The instructor and some people in the class laughed out loud
at my feeble attempt. Jim's chord subs and reharms were miles beyond
my comprehension.
The next time I did Pat Metheny's River Quay which came out okay. It
took me hours to do it even though it's not a tough tune. We used to
project the transcriptions on a screen so everyone could follow along.
Everyone applauded my transcription at the end which gave me some
confidence. I learned a lot doing those two solos but it wasn't
because of anything the instructor did. There was actually some uncool
stuff going on behind the scenes in that class. email me offline if
you care to discuss.
Joey Goldstein
>
> That's great to hear - had nothing like that when I was there of
> course (77-80) and almost everyone was there for jazz, for which I had
> no background and little desire.
> I signed up for a guitar transcription class one time with John
> Amaral. We were all to submit the name of the song/solo we wanted to
> work on and when I announced I wanted to transcribe a Johnny Winter
> solo, he and several students laughed out loud. Needless to say I
> dropped the class. I had (and still have) a lot more respect for
> Johnny Winter than John Amaral. Of course JW could turn out to be a
> douchebag and I'd never know ha ha. Somehow I doubt it.
>
> Luke
Hmm.
When I was there I always got the impression that John Amaral was one of
the really open-minded guitar faculty.
A little bit too open-minded in many ways, for me.
He was into lots of random stuff and extra-musical effects, etc.
I just wanted to learn how to play over changes.
I'm surprised to hear that he went all negative on you about doing a
Johnny Winter transcription.
If it was me teaching that class I would have advised you against doing
a JW transcription because it would actually be much harder to notate
than a typical jazz guitar or trumpet or sax solo.
But I wouldn't have laughed at you.
To bad you had that experience. It probably turned you off to all sorts
of things that you'd be better of not being turned off of.
lukejazz
Yeah, he also chided me in another class I took with him - something
about electronics for guitarists, I can't remember, but the subject
was something I was really interested in. I felt like it was one of
those "let's make fun of the stupid southerner" kinds of things. There
were lots of inspiring teachers there for me, so I just ignored him
and tried not to worry about it.
Luke
lukejazz
Yea, you see I had no idea about any of that music at all. I had an
extremely limited background in jazz. I'd never even heard of Jim
Hall. I'd heard of Pat Metheny but had never heard any of his music. I
really only knew a little about Joe Pass and Herb Ellis and Django and
that was about the sum total of my jazz influence. I was truly out of
my league, but I did learn a lot there, enjoyed getting to know some
of the teachers, and I managed to finish which has been a tremendous
help to me in the last 14 years or so as it has enabled me to teach at
our local university.
Luke
David
> On Oct 10, 2:48 pm, Graham <graham...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > From his latest CD apparently:
>
> >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQlFOX0YKlQ
>
>
> The performance captures the song well, vividly painting the picture
> of "Les Feuilles Mortes", the original French language version of the
> song.
>
You may like this rendition by this young guitarist I've just
discovered recently.
He is not a bad singer either.
http://www.emusic.com/album/-Made-of-Dust-MP3-Download/12051671.html
Here is one of his tune in a guitar/bass duet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjZz28Ukk28
David Bariod
David Bariod