Tubes and solid state
Eugel Yeo
I've been using ss amps forever, and never had the opportunity to a/b test
tubes and ss amps.
I've been told for years that ss amps are clean, quiet and clinical
sounding.
They're also cheaper, hardier and maintenance-free. I'm also told that tube
amps are warmer, more natural sounding but they require gentler
handling and maintenance.
Is all this still true today? Are the differences less pronounced now?
- Yeo
moma...@gmu.edu
An old debate, lots of opinions on all sides
Solid state gear generates less heat, it's lighter because it doesn't
require big transformers. It buzzes and hisses less, often but not
always. It's maybe more reliable depending on how it's made--cheap
solid state is not all that reliable, and it's hard to repair--some
local shops around here (DC area) won't repar low end solid state
gear--it's cheaper to just replace it. a lot of solid state gear is
really cheaply made
Tubes are maybe more fragile--i don't know--I gig regularly with old
tube amps--an ampeg B15 from 1965 that has never let me down; and old
amepeg gemni, an ampeg jet: how many Acoustic image amps will still be
gigging in thirty years? I dunno, and I'll probably be out of biz by
then anyway. But classic fender designs are easy to maintain, easy to
repair, and durable. They've been tested by 40 years of gigging. They
need cap jobs every ten years or so, new tubes a little more often
depending on how you push them, but most of the time that's it. Your
guitar needs regualr maintenance too
To my ears tubes just sound better--it could be my imagination, I
freely admit that--but they just seem to sound, yes, warmer and more
pleasing. I use solid state stuff all the time with bass, and you can
get a nice sound with solid stae gear. But in general, tubes sound
better to me. Plus I like the way they smell and the glow is cool
like I said, could be my imagination. Lots of guys get fantastic tone
with solid state gear
oasysco
bulky as tube amps, I'm willing to bet folks would use tube amps, but
they're not and with today's proliferaiton of amp modeling pedals,
reverb/chorus pedals, etc, I just don't think it makes as much of a
difference whether you use SS or tube amps - unless you want pure amp
tone, no pedals/effects at which point you have to prioritize cost,
weight/size, loudness, desired tone, features.
My personal preference is for pure tone, I prefer a good tube amp, but
if my choice is between a good SS amp and and less than good tube amp,
I'll take the SS amp.
When talking effected tone - which is what I use most of the time
anyway, SS works just fine for me.
Greg
Pt
<clean_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
You have to push a tube amp to get good sound from it.
This makes tube amps a good choice for playing live shows.
Most do not sound that great at practice volumes.
Plus they are big, heavy and hard to move around.
SS amps sound good at low volumes and are great for practicing.
Plus they are light and easier on your back.
Since I don't have to have "That Sound" at rehearsals I choose to use
a SS amp.
But on stage I use a Marshall tube half stack.
It does have "That Sound" and enough headroom.
Most SS amps under 100 watts don't have much headroom.
Pt
David Raleigh Arnold
What about fires? I was on a gig when the bass player's Fender
burned up. No idea what caused it then, but I suspect low voltage.
I had a borrowed ss amp on a gig one time, and it sounded really
awful on account of low voltage, but it didn't burn. I don't know whether
any of that is typical.
And tubes are warmer. The difference is hard to describe but not
all that subtle if it's quiet. Fortunately, it's usually not. daveA
--
The only technical exercises for guitar which are worthy of the
instrument consist in "Dynamic Guitar Technique". I promise miracles.
Get it at: http://www.openguitar.com/dynamic.html
daveA David Raleigh Arnold dra..at..openguitar.com
papao...@yahoo.com
> Since I don't have to have "That Sound" at rehearsals I choose to use
> a SS amp. But on stage I use a Marshall tube half stack.
Ah, yes, on stage. I remember seeing Joe Pass in San Francisco many
years ago when his roadies set up his Marshall. And Jim Hall at Blues
Alley - he used an Orange double stack, no roadies, and he's 20 or 30
years older than I am.
(Pass used Polytones, mostly, and Hall uses Polytones and Walter Woods
last time I checked - all SS)
I'm mocking, it's true, but mean nothing against whoever talked about
tube amps.
Pick an amp that sounds good to you, that works in the venues and
situations where you use it, and that you can afford. Don't judge the
amp in advance by the technology it uses.
Some tube amps sound better than some solid state amps. Some solid
state amps sound better than some tube amps. Listen, then pick.
Dave Stephens
BTW, Rick Jones at Acoustic Image told me they're working on a Clarus-like
head with a tube front end (pre amp). I can't wait to hear that. Production
is not assured, but they're working hard on the concept.
The new switching power supplies on the SL-R and Focus 2R is getting the
attack closer and closer to high tubes all the time.
Dave
"Eugel Yeo" <clean_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:420374e6$1...@news.starhub.net.sg...
Pt
wrote:
>Check out rmmgj's FAQ section on tube vs. ss. It's still true.
>
>BTW, Rick Jones at Acoustic Image told me they're working on a Clarus-like
>head with a tube front end (pre amp). I can't wait to hear that. Production
>is not assured, but they're working hard on the concept.
Rant.....
When amp companies put preamp tubes in SS amps it is all hype!
The sound is converted to SS and there is no advantage to a tube.
It makes the buyer think..."Cool! It's got a tube in it so it will
soind like a tube amp".
End rant..
Pt
Dave Stephens
The pre amp section has an impact on the note-attack that we hear. It works
well where the intent is not to create distortion but rather to soften or
round off the attach of a SS amp. Look at the all-tube Alessandro Italian
Greyhound for comparison, that's a great sounding clean amp that's not
designed to distort. I think that there's a good chance that an excellent
solid state amp could match it's attack and tone if a tube pre-amp were
added.
Dave
"Pt" <can.n...@reached.com> wrote in message
news:4jf701hqnghcaea62...@4ax.com...
Pt
wrote:
>I disagree Pt.
>
>The pre amp section has an impact on the note-attack that we hear. It works
>well where the intent is not to create distortion but rather to soften or
>round off the attach of a SS amp. Look at the all-tube Alessandro Italian
>Greyhound for comparison, that's a great sounding clean amp that's not
>designed to distort. I think that there's a good chance that an excellent
>solid state amp could match it's attack and tone if a tube pre-amp were
>added.
>
>Dave
Couldn't you do the same thing with a compressor?
Pt
Pt
<darn...@cox.net> wrote:
>What about fires? I was on a gig when the bass player's Fender
>burned up. No idea what caused it then, but I suspect low voltage.
>I had a borrowed ss amp on a gig one time, and it sounded really
>awful on account of low voltage, but it didn't burn. I don't know whether
>any of that is typical.
I love setting SS amps on fire!!
Pt
Keith Freeman
> sounding.
> I'm also told that
> tube amps are warmer, more natural sounding but they require gentler
> handling and maintenance.
In general this is still true, tube amps are still constructed the same
way they were in the forties and fifties, hence vulnerable to shocks. You
can get a warm tube sound from a transistor amp by using a tube preamp,
which avoids that problem.
-Keith
Music samples, tips, Portable Changes at
http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/
E-mail: keith DOT freeman AT wanadoo DOT nl
Pt
<dont.use.t...@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> I've been told for years that ss amps are clean, quiet and clinical
>> sounding.
>The Roland Jazz Chorus hisses like a bunch of snakes on vacation!
>
>> I'm also told that
>> tube amps are warmer, more natural sounding but they require gentler
>> handling and maintenance.
>In general this is still true, tube amps are still constructed the same
>way they were in the forties and fifties, hence vulnerable to shocks.
Unless the tube amp is not wired properly you should not be able to
get a shock from it.
These days all amps are multi grounded, use grounded cords and have
shock protection.
But the old amps with 2 wire cords....I have been knocked on my butt
many times.
One time when I was a kid and playing in a garage while standing in a
puddle of oil I was knocked out cold!
I almost gave up playing electric guitar with that one.
Pt
Joey Goldstein
>
> This thread is probably as old as the hills but here goes....
>
> I've been using ss amps forever, and never had the opportunity to a/b test
> tubes and ss amps.
> I've been told for years that ss amps are clean, quiet and clinical
> sounding.
> They're also cheaper, hardier and maintenance-free.
I suppose the above is a fair analysis. "Clinical" might have a bit of a
negative connotation to it though. "Accurate" or "flat", as in 'flat
response', is probably more to the point.
> I'm also told that tube
> amps are warmer, more natural sounding but they require gentler
> handling and maintenance.
Also mostly true. "Natural" is subjective though. I'd say they sound
more "normal" or more "as expected" because the vast majority of
recorded electric guitar has been done on tube amps. The better tube
amps, like old Fenders, Marshalls, and Boogies, are incredibly sturdy
and reliable though. The only delicate components are the tubes and the speakers.
> Is all this still true today?
Yes.
> Are the differences less pronounced now?
A little bit, but not all that much.
The amp modeling technology has gotten pretty good at getting the sound
of a recorded tube amp being driven into distortion into a stereo mix
suitable for recording. But they have a hard time getting a sound that
*feels right* when you play it in a room or on stage, i.e. live.
> - Yeo
Whether or not a tube amp or SS amp is the right tool for the job
depends entirely on the job.
Many jazzers prefer SS because pound fror watt they are much lighter and
easier to maintain. (No tube replacements, etc.) Jazz guys often like a
very dark sound. High power SS amps generally handle the bottom end and
lower mids with less distortion. High powew tube amps can do this too
but they weigh a lot more.
Archtop layers generally like closed back cabs too. Tube combo amps can
not be closed back because the tubes will overheat. Amp + cab is an
option but is less convenient.
The clean channels of tube amp circuits generally are built to color the
sound somewhat.
The clean channels of solid state amps are generally built to have a
flat response.
Etc., Etc.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Keith Freeman
> get a shock from it.
mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)
> I disagree Pt.
>
> The pre amp section has an impact on the note-attack that we hear. It works
> well where the intent is not to create distortion but rather to soften or
> round off the attach of a SS amp. Look at the all-tube Alessandro Italian
> Greyhound for comparison, that's a great sounding clean amp that's not
> designed to distort. I think that there's a good chance that an excellent
> solid state amp could match it's attack and tone if a tube pre-amp were
> added.
>
There are plenty of SS amps with tube pre-amps out there already. Been
around for years. And they all sound like sh*t. The only hybrid (ss and
tube sections) amp I've heard that is good is the old Musicman amps,
which are awesome, but that is because they did it the right way: solid
state preamp, with a tube power stage.
mark
LarryV
AE200 SS amp. My preference is the Evans 99% of the time. It's warm
and lush sounding for clean sounds. With a Barber Burn Unit in front
of it, it sounds smoking. The sound is consistent, I always know what
it's going to sound like when I plug into it. Tube amps are a
different sounding beast, and when it comes time to retube, sometimes
the sound changes and it may be in a positive or negative way. I find
the upkeep of a tube amp to be a pain in the arse and expensive as
well. I've had many more problems with tube amps than I've had with SS
amps. I just don't find that tube amps are all that more magical
sounding than a quality SS amp. As to Roland JC120s, the hiss factor
of those amps is legendary. My Evans doesn't hiss at all. Like
anything else, there's high end SS amps and cheaper ones, you get what
you pay for.
icarusi
news:4jf701hqnghcaea62...@4ax.com...
> When amp companies put preamp tubes in SS amps it is all hype!
> The sound is converted to SS and there is no advantage to a tube.
> It makes the buyer think..."Cool! It's got a tube in it so it will
> soind like a tube amp".
It depends how they do it. If they do it like Vox with their 'reactor'
circuit, then it ought to replicate valve power amp distortion at much lower
audio levels.
Icarusi
--
remove the 00 to reply
Bob Agnew
tube overdrive so I can get close to the sound that I want. Of course I'd
be using my Fender Twin Reverb if I could find a dealer that knew how to fix
it.
Anoter point, my Polytone has a lot of objectionable hum which my Fender
Twin doesn't . (I know -- that's backwards but that's just the way it is.)
"Eugel Yeo" <clean_...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:420374e6$1...@news.starhub.net.sg...
Skip Moy
Amcrown 1200 PA amp as a test. I prefered the "less clinical , more musical
" tone of the Claurs power amp over the Amcrown.
I saw the prototype 600 w Clarus head in use at NAMM recently. Its about the
size of a Clarus 1 R. and weighs less than the new Focus series. It has
simple in / outputs located on the rear and one vol control . Intrestingly
enough another manuf (sharing the same booth) had a simple tube pre amp
there for bass . The whole combo kicked butt ! Warm front end but fast
output to get all the transients and attack to still come thru.A lot of
punch. sounded like a great combination. I liked it better than the SWR 500
and the 750 Mo Bass amp heads we use.
I think it will be fun to see what comes down the pipeline in the near
future for guitarists. I would be intrested to see how close we could get to
a Fender-ish or an Evans type sound just by changing the preamps but
keeping something like the Clarus power amp as a constant factor. If this
concept does work then we might be looking at an era of lighter,true hybrid
alternative amp combos that sound and work great.
Skip
"Dave Stephens" <dcs...@swbell.net> wrote in message
news:MkQMd.23142$wi2....@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com...
Michael Nickolas
>Of course I'd
>be using my Fender Twin Reverb if I could find a dealer that knew how to fix
>it.
Where are you located? I know someone just outside of Boston that I'll
bet could do it.
>Anoter point, my Polytone has a lot of objectionable hum which my Fender
>Twin doesn't . (I know -- that's backwards but that's just the way it is.)
Funny. I have a SS Fender that I also think is much noisier than my 30
year old Twin.
Michael Nickolas
www.studionineproductions.com
Bob Agnew
"Michael Nickolas" <news...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:t5ph01ddnkv6i38p0...@4ax.com...
Elroy Windahm III
<clean_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I say old boy, it's not what's inside the amp that matters, it's what
comes out. Try them all and play the one you like the best, who cares
what's inside it.
Music without theory is like velveeta cheese.
--E. Windham III
Michael Nickolas
>I'm in Oceanside, CA near San Diego.
Guess you couldn't get any further from "just outside of Boston". :-)
Michael Nickolas
www.studionineproductions.com
Tom Lippincott
one of the schools where I teach just got a brand new reissue Twin, and it
makes weird hissing noises on occasion (kind of like hearing the ocean in a
sea shell); sometimes it's there, most of the time it's not. I'm not a real
tube amp expert and I just have chalked it up to tube amps being
unpredicable and quirky. Could there be something specificly wrong that's
causing this intermittant noise?
--
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
8 string guitar audio samples at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/tomlippincottmusic.htm
Bob Agnew
finally went out. I may be wrong, but my guess is that only the reissued
Twin, which uses a PC board instead of point to point wiring, has this
problem. Can't imagine why though.
I sent it back to the Factory while it was still under waranttee. It came
back fine for a few months. Then the crackling noise started again. Now
it's dead!
"Tom Lippincott" <tomlip...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:LFPOd.10601$Se6....@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
Jack A. Zucker
same quality as Crate.
Fender amps from the late '50s and early '60s are still going strong.
--
Experience a revolutionary way to approach the instrument.
Introducing Sheets of Sound for Guitar
"Let the music govern the way you play guitar instead of the guitar
governing the way you play music!"
Check it out at:
http://www.sheetsofsound.net
"Bob Agnew" <rag...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:zNYOd.34287$Yu.9694@fed1read01...
Bob Agnew
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
news:cO-dnQCOxq7...@adelphia.com...
Michael Nickolas
>Could there be something specificly wrong that's
>causing this intermittant noise?
Probably Tom. Most of the weirdness you get with tubes is more subtle
and not as noticeable at volume.
Michael Nickolas
www.studionineproductions.com