"lost wes montgomery" update: email exchange with the seller

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hw

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Jan 30, 2008, 5:58:43 PM1/30/08
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here is the email exchange with jim greeninger (the seller) that i'm having
right now. i got his permission to post this:

"Jim,

I'm part of an internet newgroup called rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz. We
were discussing the tapes and are reflecting right now if we collectively
could come up with some money to prevent these tapes from going into some
collector's vault and never be heard of again. I noticed that you are an
accomplished jazz guitarist so you can certainly relate to that.

Do you see a possibility to join the discussion here, maybe work out a deal
with us and even shed some light on the origin of these historic tapes?"


"Holger,
Yes, it is possible to work with the group. At this point the tapes are a
collector's item with no rights implied or stated. I would be willing to
sell them to the group for $7, 500 and would reserve $1,000 for myself for
the first ten numbers, leaving a balance of $6,500. Please let me know your
thoughts. They are now relisted with eBay so if anyone makes a bid then the
collective group would be out of luck.

I agree the tapes should not be locked away somewhere, however, the money is
needed to help two children who are being abused, so the money is for a good
cause.

Please let me know your thoughts.

Jim Greeninger"

"Jim,

please excuse that I'm not a native speaker of the English language, so I'm
not fully understanding what the "1000$ for first ten numbers" does mean.

Can you shed any light to the origins of the tapes, it is quite puzzling
that they seem to come from different sources. some sound like recordings
made for pacific records, the live recording seems to be from a quite
different source. Finally, would you allow me to share our email exchange
with the members of the newsgroup?

Thank you for your time!

Best wishes,

Holger Weber"

"Holger,

Yes, you can share my messages with the group.

I would put $1,000 of the total amount for a top place in the user group.

The tapes were given to me in 1990 Oren Keepnews. These were tapes he owned
at the time and Fantasy Records had completed the boxed set of Wes
Montgomery and could not include these in the boxed set. Serene Montgomery
Woods was disagreeable in distributing them but other members of her family
wanted to work with me. Serene must be 80 - 90 years old by now, so if
someone could afford to hold the tapes until she is gone it should be easy
to make a working agreement with the family. I know his brother Buddy would
be willing to work with us. Buddy is a real nice guy. I spent some time with
him.

May I ask how much money you have together at this time?

Please email any questions.

Jim Greeninger"

Personally, I have huge problems with the fact that Wes' wife did not want
those recordings to be distributed, and do not like the "wait until she's
gone" part at all.



charles robinson

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Jan 30, 2008, 6:15:20 PM1/30/08
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This gets stranger and stranger. It's possible that it was considered to be
inferior work that wasn't meant to be released. Although the ruanchy blues
is interesting to us as guitarists who want to consider Montgomery's
background it doesn't sound like something that he would have wanted out
there for instance. This quite possibly be the reason that his wife objects
to their release.
Charlie

"hw" <nosp...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:fnqv9r$arl$01$1...@news.t-online.com...

Derek

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Jan 30, 2008, 6:19:24 PM1/30/08
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charles robinson wrote:
> This gets stranger and stranger. It's possible that it was considered to be
> inferior work that wasn't meant to be released. Although the ruanchy blues
> is interesting to us as guitarists who want to consider Montgomery's
> background it doesn't sound like something that he  would have wanted out
> there for instance. This quite possibly be the reason that his wife objects
> to their release.
>
Heck that is worth an extra $10 to me. :-)

Tone

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Jan 30, 2008, 6:40:10 PM1/30/08
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Yeah, up till there I was with him.

Family disagreements over inheritance aren't exactly breaking news but
evidently her views count for more legally than Buddy's or any of Wes'
kids etc. as far as Wes' estate. I wonder why she didn't want them
distributed. Naively it would seem that she'd stand to gain from it
monetarily if she had some legal claim to them.

I don't really know what "distributing" them means. Did Keepnews
giving tapes to Greeninger constitute distribution? Does Greeninger
selling a digital version of the tapes? What is the difference between
selling something to a collector vs. anyone else? What legally
constitutes a collector? Sounds like more of a minefield than I
thought.

oasysco

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Jan 30, 2008, 7:41:15 PM1/30/08
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> thought.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Who cares?

We buy 'em and run a late night 30 minute TV infomercial with Geraldo
Rivera opening a dusty vault leading to the "Long Lost Wes Montgomery
Tapes".

Later in the segment, Geraldo hawks CDs made from the tapes with
Geraldo gushing over the "find of the century" and how every music
lover MUST own a set if for nothing else than the historical
significance of the find itself, likening it perhaps to a major
diamond mine find. We could even hire a George Benson lookalike to co-
host and say how Wes was his hero and all.

We all split the proceeds from the CDs, give a little to charity to
make it more palatable to the buying public. Later, we auction off the
tapes, but this time with "As Seen on TV" plastered all over the
auction.

And to cut advertising costs, why not sub Tony Orlando from Dawn for
Geraldo. Nobody'll be the wiser and we'll make even more!

Greg

Karl

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Jan 30, 2008, 8:53:37 PM1/30/08
to
This *is* strange.
I mean, I hear the clips and it sounds like Wes, but what's up with -

"I would put $1,000 of the total amount for a top place in the user
group"-
??? and the appeal for two abused children makes me a bit wary. Plus
200hrs of work on the tapes
(seriously, that's a *lot* of time). I'd be *very* careful - is here
some way to contact Keepnews
to verify the story??

On Jan 30, 6:15 pm, "charles robinson" <robinsonch...@comcast.net>
wrote:


> This gets stranger and stranger. It's possible that it was considered to be
> inferior work that wasn't meant to be released. Although the ruanchy blues
> is interesting to us as guitarists who want to consider Montgomery's
> background it doesn't sound like something that he  would have wanted out
> there for instance. This quite possibly be the reason that his wife objects
> to their release.
> Charlie
>

> "hw" <nospam...@yahoo.com> wrote in message

> > gone" part at all.- Hide quoted text -

Chickenhead

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Jan 31, 2008, 12:17:56 AM1/31/08
to
I'm with ya', except why buy 'em when we could just make some junk up or
weld chunks of other recordings together with just about any DAW software?

We could just form a corporation to be the holding company for the marketing
and distribution, with some poor schnook shill as the President, CFO and
Secretary. We then have the corporation hire us as vendors, contractors, or
employees, at absurd salaries and with absurd bonuses. Then we jump out
with our golden parachutes and let the corporation go Chapter 7 when the
lawsuits and injunctions start flying in.

I wonder what Geraldo charges?


"oasysco" <wilder...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d7f3e60b-aefd-479c...@1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com...

oasysco

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Jan 31, 2008, 4:56:07 AM1/31/08
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On Jan 31, 12:17 am, "Chickenhead"

<NOSPkurtAMshap...@THANKhotmYOUail.com> wrote:
> I'm with ya', except why buy 'em when we could just make some junk up or
> weld chunks of other recordings together with just about any DAW software?
>
> We could just form a corporation to be the holding company for the marketing
> and distribution, with some poor schnook shill as the President, CFO and
> Secretary.  We then have the corporation hire us as vendors, contractors, or
> employees, at absurd salaries and with absurd bonuses.  Then we jump out
> with our golden parachutes and let the corporation go Chapter 7 when the
> lawsuits and injunctions start flying in.

I'm liking that! Just make sure we have enough shell companies between
us and the product. I don't want to be served a warrant when I'm off
sipping margaritas on the beach in the islands.

>
> I wonder what Geraldo charges?

Like I said if it's too much, let's go with Tony Orlando or maybe even
just a Geraldo lookalike. Or we could just splice in footage from
Geraldo's Al Capone vault opening and make it look like he's doing it
for these tapes. and then do voice-overs of someone imitating his
voice and show still shots of Geraldo thta we can get off the web.

Greg

>
> "oasysco" <wilderkom...@yahoo.com> wrote in message


>
> news:d7f3e60b-aefd-479c...@1g2000hsl.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Who cares?
>
> > We buy 'em and run a late night 30 minute TV infomercial with Geraldo
> > Rivera opening a dusty vault leading to the "Long Lost Wes Montgomery
> > Tapes".
>
> > Later in the segment, Geraldo hawks CDs made from the tapes with
> > Geraldo gushing over the "find of the century" and how every music
> > lover MUST own a set if for nothing else than the historical
> > significance of the find itself, likening it perhaps to a major
> > diamond mine find. We could even hire a George Benson lookalike to co-
> > host and say how Wes was his hero and all.
>
> > We all split the proceeds from the CDs, give a little to charity to
> > make it more palatable to the buying public. Later, we auction off the
> > tapes, but this time with "As Seen on TV" plastered all over the
> > auction.
>
> > And to cut advertising costs, why not sub Tony Orlando from Dawn for
> > Geraldo. Nobody'll be the wiser and we'll make even more!
>

> > Greg- Hide quoted text -

bradw

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Jan 31, 2008, 7:11:12 AM1/31/08
to

Scam. End of story

www.VintageArchtop.com

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Jan 31, 2008, 7:50:07 AM1/31/08
to
Did anyone notice he doubled the opening bid of the second auction for
24 hours, then brought it back down to $2,995.00 again?

Every fiber of my being says something is really wrong with this.

-Thomas

paul

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Jan 31, 2008, 9:06:58 AM1/31/08
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yeah the whole thing seems pretty shady to me after reading his emails.

hw

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Jan 31, 2008, 9:19:59 AM1/31/08
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I won't be proceeding with this, the possible implications go way over my
head.


Dan Adler

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Jan 31, 2008, 9:24:51 AM1/31/08
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I hate alternate takes. I try not to buy any reissues that have them,
and if I do, I drop them from my ipod. I have yet to hear an alternate
take which is better than the one originally released and in most
cases it's very clear why the take was dropped. I think it's
disrespectful to second guess the artist on the choice of what gets
released even if there is sound legal ground to release what the
artist considered throw-aways. It's like going through someone's
garbage. It totally takes away from the magic of the original release
for me. As much as I love early Joe Pass recordings, the alternate
takes from "For Django" that were on the mosaic set were very
disappointing and I wish I had never heard them.

-Dan
http://danadler.com

Kevin Van Sant

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Jan 31, 2008, 9:36:46 AM1/31/08
to
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 06:24:51 -0800 (PST), Dan Adler <d...@danadler.com>
wrote in message
<a624c29c-973c-45ba...@e25g2000prg.googlegroups.com> :

>I hate alternate takes. I try not to buy any reissues that have them,
>and if I do, I drop them from my ipod. I have yet to hear an alternate
>take which is better than the one originally released and in most
>cases it's very clear why the take was dropped. I think it's
>disrespectful to second guess the artist on the choice of what gets
>released even if there is sound legal ground to release what the
>artist considered throw-aways. It's like going through someone's
>garbage. It totally takes away from the magic of the original release
>for me. As much as I love early Joe Pass recordings, the alternate
>takes from "For Django" that were on the mosaic set were very
>disappointing and I wish I had never heard them.


I've never heard anyone express that quite so strongly. I love
hearing alt takes. I don't care if they are better or worse than the
release take. If it's an artist I dig, I just want to hear more. To
me it's no different than museum exhibits which include early sketches
made by the artist prior to the finished masterpiece. It's
fascinating to witness the process and the evolution. It promotes a
deeper appreciation and understanding.

_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant

http://www.kevinvansant.com
CDs, videos, mp3s, gigs, pics, lessons, info.

tom walls

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Jan 31, 2008, 9:39:36 AM1/31/08
to
In article <fnsl98$vgv$00$1...@news.t-online.com>, nosp...@yahoo.com
says...

> I won't be proceeding with this, the possible implications go way over my
> head.
>
>
>
I hear ya. It livened up the newsgroup for a couple of days.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus

hw

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Jan 31, 2008, 9:51:45 AM1/31/08
to

"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag
news:onm3q3p30lnlrhv55...@4ax.com...

me too. besides, sometimes tracks get rejected for some clams in the melody
or the arrangement. sometimes they are just too long. the alternate takes of
Wes' "Body And Soul" on riverside are pure gold. same for "Blues Riff".


Des Higgins

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Jan 31, 2008, 10:20:41 AM1/31/08
to
On Jan 31, 2:39 pm, tom walls <t...@cornell.edu> wrote:
> In article <fnsl98$vgv$0...@news.t-online.com>, nospam...@yahoo.com

> says...> I won't be proceeding with this, the possible implications go way over my
> > head.
>
> I hear ya. It livened up the newsgroup for a couple of days.

Was fun indeed;
now let's get back to being grumpy with each other, big nose.

Des

tom walls

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Jan 31, 2008, 10:49:15 AM1/31/08
to
In article <fnsn4p$l1o$03$1...@news.t-online.com>, nosp...@yahoo.com
says...

>
> me too. besides, sometimes tracks get rejected for some clams in the melody
> or the arrangement. sometimes they are just too long. the alternate takes of
> Wes' "Body And Soul" on riverside are pure gold. same for "Blues Riff".
>
>
>
Billie Holiday's third take of "All of Me" with Count Basie was rejected
because Lester Young's solo was too long. Was there ever a solo by
Lester Young that was "too long"?

lfio

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Jan 31, 2008, 12:36:13 PM1/31/08
to
I don't mind alt. takes as long as they followed the track listing as
originally issued. It drives me nuts when they sequence them after
the originally issued track.

> -Danhttp://danadler.com- Hide quoted text -

Mark & Steven Bornfeld

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Jan 31, 2008, 12:36:28 PM1/31/08
to


Fiber good.

Steve

--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

Rick Ross

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Jan 31, 2008, 12:53:32 PM1/31/08
to

"tom walls" <tw...@cornell.edu> wrote in message
news:MPG.220ba7b2...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu...

where to go from here?
a string thread perhaps?

tom walls

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Jan 31, 2008, 1:14:56 PM1/31/08
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In article <wWnoj.8863$Ej5....@newssvr29.news.prodigy.net>,
rick...@hotmail.com says...
Well, we've got this whole Zucker/Finn punch up going on. IIRC both you
and I found it at least momentarily irresistable. It looks like Gerry
and Doug might go at it again. I gave the Epi 175 another plug which
usually is a sign of desperation on my part. But strings might be worth
a shot.

Personally, I think that paying for anything more expensive than
D'Addario Chromes is a symptom of conspicuous consumption.

How's that? Next: picks.

paulmitc...@gmail.com

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Jan 31, 2008, 3:46:14 PM1/31/08
to

How about the alternate take of 'My Funny Valentine' on
'Undercurrent'? That's become almost better known than the official
release. As for the Wes alternate takes, they rarely seem inferior and
usually contain completely different solos. Shows that for all his
licks and tricks, Wes was a remarkably spontaneous improviser.

The one that annoyed me was the Muse CD of Pat Martino's 'Exit' which
included the alternate of 'I Remember Clifford' but not the original!

Paul M Brown

lgoler

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Jan 31, 2008, 5:01:22 PM1/31/08
to

How about Charlie Parker's Dial recordings, particularly the ballads:
Bird of Paradise, Embraceable You, How Deep is the Ocean, Don't Blame
Me? Each one is equivalent in genius to the other. If we only had
the master takes, that would be just sad.

Michael Standal

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Jan 31, 2008, 6:39:54 PM1/31/08
to
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:19:59 -0600, hw wrote
(in article <fnsl98$vgv$00$1...@news.t-online.com>):

> I won't be proceeding with this, the possible implications go way over my
> head.
>
>

I agree. It's a shame. Would've been nice to check that stuff out. But that
situation just seems fishy - "If it smells like poo, it probably is."

You did a great job "rallying the troups," though :) I was surprised by the
response. Just goes to show - when you get a bunch of like minded people
together it's easy to get results.

Mike

Jazzer

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Feb 1, 2008, 12:04:55 AM2/1/08
to
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:36:46 GMT, Kevin Van Sant <kvan...@pobox.com>
wrote:

>I've never heard anyone express that quite so strongly. I love
>hearing alt takes. I don't care if they are better or worse than the
>release take. If it's an artist I dig, I just want to hear more. To
>me it's no different than museum exhibits which include early sketches
>made by the artist prior to the finished masterpiece. It's
>fascinating to witness the process and the evolution. It promotes a
>deeper appreciation and understanding.

I feel exactly the same way Kevin.
There is so much to learn from alternate takes.

Time, feel, fluidity, ideas, repetition, did I mention repetition? :)
And much more.
.
.
.
*** The Sig below is automatically inserted by Teranews.
I do not endorse their products. ***

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Keith Freeman

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Feb 1, 2008, 11:23:16 AM2/1/08
to
> How about Charlie Parker's Dial recordings, particularly the ballads:
> Bird of Paradise, Embraceable You, How Deep is the Ocean, Don't Blame
> Me? Each one is equivalent in genius to the other. If we only had
> the master takes, that would be just sad.

Alternate takes of Lester Young are also very interesting, showing how he
tackled each one afresh.

-Keith

Clips, Portable Changes, tips etc.: www.keithfreemantrio.nl
e-mail: info AT keithfreemantrio DOT nl

RTFirefly

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Feb 1, 2008, 11:46:30 AM2/1/08
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> Paul M Brown- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Agree about I Remember Clifford. The LP original had a much better or
at least more 'developed' piano solo from Gil Goldstein than the
alternate in my view.

Chris

unknownguitarplayer

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Feb 1, 2008, 1:48:57 PM2/1/08
to

...yeah, sure, whatever...all I know is that RTFirefly wins my vote
for best screen name *ever*!

Whatever It Is, I'm Against It

By Harry Ruby (music) and Bert Kalmar (lyrics)

Performed by Groucho Marx in "Horse Feathers" (1932)

I don't know what they have to say,
It makes no difference anyway --
Whatever it is, I'm against it!
No matter what it is or who commenced it,
I'm against it.

Your proposition may be good
But let's have one thing understood --
Whatever it is, I'm against it!
And even when you've changed it or condensed it,
I'm against it.

I'm opposed to it --
On general principles I'm opposed to it!

Chorus: He's opposed to it!
In fact, in word, in deed,
He's opposed to it!

For months before my son was born,
I used to yell from night till morn,
Whatever it is, I'm against it!
And I've kept yelling since I commenced it,
I'm against it!

Michael Standal

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Feb 1, 2008, 7:57:40 PM2/1/08
to
On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:39:36 -0600, tom walls wrote
(in article <MPG.220ba7b2...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>):

> In article <fnsl98$vgv$00$1...@news.t-online.com>, nosp...@yahoo.com
> says...
>> I won't be proceeding with this, the possible implications go way over my
>> head.
>>
>>
>>
> I hear ya. It livened up the newsgroup for a couple of days.
>

You guys see that the seller pulled the auction - "no longer available for
sale?"

Man, I think Chickenhead scared him straight with his reply to JimmyGuitar's
post :) Damn, that was amazing - I could almost feel the heat of the bright
interrogation lamp. Ducks in a row, indeed.

I still want to hear those tapes, tho........

Mike

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