Godin Multiac nylon strung?

[Mr.Will Music]

Easy gang,

I recently heard someone play one of these instruments - a classical
guitarist no less - it sounded really really nice - and he let me try it out
(it had a neck like an electric guitar though which surprised me) - I tried
a fingerstyle jazz piece on it (a Tuck arrangement) and messed with the
controls a little and thought it sounded fantastic. I only had a couple of
minutes on it, so couldnt really get a massive in depth look at things -
just it seemed really good.

Just wondered though - lots of jazzers use flatwound strings - whats the
main difference between that and nylon - asking only because both seem to go
for a less bright or responsive sound of the steel strings. I even thought
of this for the afro-pop style stuff as I can probably dig into the strings
a bit more with my nails (strats and steel strings are something I have to
be really delicate with in the right hand)..........interested to hear any
opinions on the multiac style guitars

Mr.Will

[Ori Ventura]

check out my youtube page:
http://www.youtube.com/user/oriventura/videos
all of my last show was played with the multiac nylon. with a wet reverb, it's pure heaven.

[Mr.Will Music]

"Ori Ventura" <OriVe...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5f082bf8-b870-4876...@googlegroups.com...

thanks bro!

Mr.Will

[David J. Littleboy]

Hey! You're quicker than I. I was about to say that you get a lovely sound.

-- David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan

>>>>>>>>>
"Ori Ventura" wrote in message
news:5f082bf8-b870-4876...@googlegroups.com...

[rpjazzguitar]

For several years I played a Godin Multiac Nylon SA and a D'A EXDC with flats.

I never thought of the flats as any kind of equivalent to nylon. In fact, new nylon strings can be pretty bright, at least the wound strings. The sounds aren't the same. That's hard to describe, although I do think it would be fair to say that nylon guitars have less sustain, on the average.

The Godin is a nice instrument. A lot to like. Here are some negatives.

1. I had to set the 3 band EQ with treble and mids off and bass up. Otherwise, the sound was too trebly. I even called RMC to find out if there was a way to reduce the treble further. The answer was no.

2. My particular instrument fed back like crazy. Eventually, I stuffed a sofa into it. The acoustic tone became muffled, but the amplified tone was still fine.

3. Depending on your personal geometry, it may fall off your lap. The lower bout, the part that sits on your leg, isn't very long. The bridge is 7 or so inches from the end of the guitar. The scale is 25.5. Those numbers mean that the neck feels like it sticks out way to the left. So, to compensate when sitting, I'd move the guitar to the right. At that point, I discovered the short lower bout by the guitar slipping off my leg.

Positives:

1. When dialed in right, it sounds great.

2. I was able to get a neck reset that brought the action to steel string electric levels.

3. Quality is very good.

4. Battery life is months.

[Docbop]

I bought a used one a few months ago and loving it. The previous owner had the action lower so it feels a lot like a electric. I find myself playing it way more than I thought I would.

[Jazzer]

On May 4, 3:06 pm, "Mr.Will Music" <w...@mr-will-music.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Just wondered though - lots of jazzers use flatwound strings - whats the
> main difference between that and nylon - asking only because both seem to go
> for a less bright or responsive sound of the steel strings. I even thought
> of this for the afro-pop style stuff as I can probably dig into the strings
> a bit more with my nails (strats and steel strings are something I have to
> be really delicate with in the right hand)..........interested to hear any
> opinions on the multiac style guitars

Welcome to the Multiac club Will! :)

I've been playing my Multiac nylon now for more than 20 years.
Although I've got several steel string archtop electrics for jazz that
give me the 'authentic' jazz guitar sound, my Multiac is my first grab
guitar.

Why? Because nylon strings are easier on the fingers (right and left
hand) than steel strings. The sound is soft (either acoustic or
plugged in).

I really like a lot of things about the guitar. The only thing I'd
like to change if possible, is the scale length, 25.5".
All of my other jazz boxes are 24.75".

[rpjazzguitar]

There are very few nylon string electrics with the shorter scale. The Yamaha AEX500 (I think) is one. Short scale, narrow neck too. But there aren't many. Anybody know any others?

[herbe...@gmail.com]

I tried one and it felt great for the left hand but I am used to long scale guitars

[TD]

24 3/4 is best for darker tone. 25 1/2 is much brighter. So, it becomes personal like most similar things. I prefer darker, but of late I am playing some different things that would suit a longer scale, considering the physical aspect. So, I decided to go in the middle for the axe I am currently having made: 25.1. I practice classical on my classical axe, but I do fancy a nylon for jazz playing. I haven't come across one that I like as of yet.

[thomas]

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 3:23:44 PM UTC-4, TD wrote:
>I do fancy a nylon for jazz playing. I haven't come across one that I like as of yet.>

Buscarino. Thank me later.

[Jazzer]

On May 7, 3:23 pm, TD <tonydecap...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > I really like a lot of things about the guitar. The only thing I'd
>
> > like to change if possible, is the scale length, 25.5".
>
> > All of my other jazz boxes are 24.75".
>
> 24 3/4 is best for darker tone. 25 1/2 is much brighter. So, it becomes personal like most similar things. I prefer darker, but of late I am playing some different things that would suit a longer scale, considering the physical aspect. So, I decided to go in the middle for the axe I am currently having made: 25.1. I practice classical on my classical axe, but I do fancy a nylon for jazz playing. I haven't come across one that I like as of yet.

Interesting Tony thanks.

I didn't know about the dark/light differences between the 24 3/4 and
25 1/2.

I just started a dialogue with Warmoth to see if they can build a 24
3/4 neck for my Godin.
The first response on my headstock question was that they don't do
slotted, classical-style pegheads. :(

That's a bummer right there. I don't think I'd want to order a neck
and then have to worry about cutting slots in the headstock!

I'll write USACG and ask them about this too.

A solo luthier would make this neck, but the price would be
astronomical.

[Jazzer]

Too bad they're 25 1/2" scale too. :(

[Nate Najar]

my cabaret and starlight classicasl (and my mira sold body) are all 25" scale....

[TD]

On Tuesday, May 7, 2013 8:07:06 PM UTC-4, Jazzer wrote:

Rich DiCarlo makes fine nylon jazz models. He is up in New Hampshire. You can call him to possibly get advice. Mention my name. http://www.dicarloguitars.com/home/

[Jazzer]

On May 7, 8:18 pm, Nate Najar <n...@natenajar.com> wrote:

>
> > > Buscarino. Thank me later.
>
> >    Too bad they're 25 1/2" scale too.  :(
>
> my cabaret and starlight classicasl (and my mira sold body) are all 25" scale....

I think you mean 25.5".
25" would actually be quite good. :)

[Jazzer]

On May 7, 8:49 pm, TD <tonydecap...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Rich DiCarlo makes fine nylon jazz models. He is up in New Hampshire. You can call him to possibly get advice. Mention my name.http://www.dicarloguitars.com/home/

Thanks Tony.
I may give him a call later in the summer after my vacation.

[Nate Najar]

nope they're 25

john told me he did that on purpose for some reason or another that i can't remember.

[Jazzer]

On May 7, 11:19 pm, Nate Najar <n...@natenajar.com> wrote:

> >  I think you mean 25.5".
>
> > 25" would actually be quite good.  :)
>
> nope they're 25
>
> john told me he did that on purpose for some reason or another that i can't remember.

Hmmm... very interesting. I think I'll have to give him a call too.

[Tony Done]

On 8/05/2013 10:02 AM, Jazzer wrote:
> On May 7, 3:23 pm, TD <tonydecap...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> I really like a lot of things about the guitar. The only thing I'd
>>
>>> like to change if possible, is the scale length, 25.5".
>>
>>> All of my other jazz boxes are 24.75".
>>
>

> Interesting Tony thanks.
>
> I didn't know about the dark/light differences between the 24 3/4 and
> 25 1/2.
>
> I just started a dialogue with Warmoth to see if they can build a 24
> 3/4 neck for my Godin.
> The first response on my headstock question was that they don't do
> slotted, classical-style pegheads. :(
>
> That's a bummer right there. I don't think I'd want to order a neck
> and then have to worry about cutting slots in the headstock!
>
> I'll write USACG and ask them about this too.
>
> A solo luthier would make this neck, but the price would be
> astronomical.
>
>
>
>

I don't think that the longer scale does make a dark/light difference. I
use a 30"bari with skinny strings tuned high to get a "stringier" sound.
I also have a strat with a 19"scale, and with 13-56 strings in standard
tuning it has a thicker more acoustic tone than a standard scale strat
with 10-46 strings. These difference can be heard with extreme
differences in scale length but I play both 25.5 and 24.75 and haven't
noticed any difference in either playability or sound with that small
difference. - My strat, by chance (the very good neck was going cheap)
has a 24.75 scale, but it sounds just like any other comparable strat.

Why don't you and anyone else interested in this try a tone experiment
and report back? The difference between those two scales is about half a
fret, so tune the guitar down a semitone and stick a capo on the first
fret. Does it sound any different to how it did in standard tuning, and
if so how?

What *does* make a difference to dark and light is materials and
construction. I have a Matsumoku Westone 335 knockoff with maple neck
and laminated ash, and it is much darker sounding than the equivalent
real deal Gibson. So much so that I had to find the brightest pickups I
could (SD Jazz) and put series/single/parallel switching on them.

--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/

[TD]

That's nice. Others here can simply ask any decent luthier.

[Tony Done]

>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/
>
> "I don't think that the longer scale does make a dark/light difference"
>
> That's nice. Others here can simply ask any decent luthier.
>

Simply try my suggestion and report back. IMO, one should trust one's
ears and experience, not what others tell you. The world is full of
hypotheticals, a few years ago is was narrow grain for tops, brass
saddles, whatever.

[TD]

What I tell you is fact. I am not interested.

[Tony Done]

That's a troll answer.

Have a look in rec.music.makers.builders. I've started a thread there.
Hopefully Al Carruth, the most technical luthier I am aware of, will
respond.

--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/

[Tony Done]

On 9/05/2013 6:10 AM, TD wrote:

Here's a couple of replies I got so far. Ben Meulle-Stef is Belgian and
builds interesting designs, Kevin Hall builds Timberline guitars and
worked as Canadian shop foreman (?) for Martin for many years. Over the
years, Kevin's comments are the best I have seen on building and repair.

Ben:

"The only thing I can think of is as longer the scale as thinner the
strings needs to be, so yes a longer scale will provide a more bell ring
tone...

Cheers
Benoit"


Kevin:

"My old friend the late Bill Lewis used to say that scale length is the
first
consideration when designing a new instrument for a specific client, but
it's only one of many variables which will affect the overall performance.

Given otherwise identical instruments a longer scale will generally give
greater projection and volume since it puts greater tension on the top.
The trouble with such sweeping statements however is that instruments with
longer scales often have slightly heavier bracing and/or top specs in order
to better cope with the increased tension. Instruments built that little
bit more heavily can tend to have a slower, less subtle response than more
lightly built ones. Add the variable of string guage and you open another
whole can of worms. Long scale instruments are often strung with light
guage wires in order to make them more playable, so a shorter scale
instrument strung with mediums may actually provide more bite with a more
subtle response.

In the 70s and '80s when Jean Larrivee and his various accolytes were
building virtually all their steel strings with 650 mm scale lengths and
bracing them fairly heavily many players bought them, liking the volume as
they came from the shops with medium strings. Within a couple of months
many of those players, tired of the hard tension and stiff response,
switched to lights then found they didn't care for the drop in volume which
accompanied that switch. For a while there were lots of bargains around
Toronto on 6-month to a year old Larrivees et al.

Like virtually everything else about guitars there is a delicate balance
between scale length, top thickness, brace weight and stiffness, string
guage and players' style. This makes it very difficult to come up with a
definitive answer to which one of any of the above variables may be the
best
for a particular player.

One of the main objections many players had to the old Mossman flat-tops
was
that they felt 'stiff' and they had to beat the liver and lights out of
them to get the best tone. Mossman used long scale lengths on his stuff,
and while that made them powerful and very attractive to heavy-handed
bluegrassers etc. it made them unpleasant for a lot of others, especially
when strung with the medium strings for which they'd been designed.

Your average player doesn't want to worry his or her pretty little head
about such niceties, and just wants a short, straight answer to questions
like 'which is better, short or long scales?' or my all time favourite: "
What's better, steel strings or them rubber ones?"

KH "

--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/

[Mr. Maj6th]

On Fri, 10 May 2013 05:37:15 +1000, Tony Done <tony...@bigpond.com>
wrote:

You seem to be right on all counts, but no where do you mention
brightness or darkness (unless I missed it.)

Maj6th

[Tony Done]

That was just copy and paste, but as you say, neither of these luthiers
mentioned it. I'm still sticking to my guns for the moment, some may
find differences due to scale length, but I don't and I don't think
light and dark are good descriptions for those differences that do
occur. I'm hoping Al Carruth offers an opinion, he's the duck's nuts on
guitar physics. I would still like someone to try lowering the pitch
half a tone and sticking a capo on the first fret and tell me what they
think. - That is a substantially more drastic change than shortening the
scale by half a fret.

--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/

[Tony Done]

On 10/05/2013 5:50 AM, Mr. Maj6th wrote:

Just to be clear, it is not a question of whether TD is right or wrong,
but his sweeping statement, when there are so many other factors to be
considered, pushed my BS button. In particular, it is outright
misleading to a relatively inexperienced person seeking advice. This is
why I like Usenet, and will have nothing to do with moderated fora. - So
many challengeable statements get by with a polite nod of the head in
the fora, when much could be learned from informed debate. The downside
is that it often gets impolite on Usenet.

--
Tony Done

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=784456

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/

[TD]

"Sweeping statement?" Short scale necks are produce a mellower tone than long scale necks. It's a matter of physics. There *are* many additional factors as an aside, but that has nothing to do with my statement, which I did not invent. I experienced it myself and also respect some of the finest builders in guitar making history. If you find a few builders who believe otherwise, that's OK too. If you wish to continue saying that I am wrong, which you claim now that you are not saying (nor saying I am right), then usenet is a waste of time for me with you, true.

It's not that important. But, it is a fact. Perhaps, you wish to continue scouring the web for more data. I can only hope that you will find fairness in not overlooking evidence that favors my statement. That's up to you, because from what you have posted from that other newsgroup, it clearly favors my statement. Even if only by a "quarter inch."

[Tony Done]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/done_family/
>
> "Sweeping statement?" Short scale necks are produce a mellower tone than long scale necks.
>

You were talking about light and dark, not mellow and bright, not quite
the same thing in my tonal vocabulary. Mellow to me implies loss of high
transients, dark an emphasis on low-mids while retaining the high
transients, eg good electric basses are dark, not mellow. I will copy
and paste anything I find, regardless of what opinion it supports. - As
I noted, informed debate is what matters. I'm still hoping someone will
try the pitch-shifting expt. I might have a go at it this evening, but I
think my opinion would be rightfully regarded biased.

[TD]

short/dark/mellow long/bright/crisp

[TD]

I never used the word "light."

[Tony Done]

You're right, my apologies.

[Neil Lamb]

In 50 years I have owned too many guitars to count without embarrassment but including a Byrdland (23.5 inches) and a WD-7 "tele" ( 26.5 inches.) My impression of scale length and tone matches TD. Short/dark /mellow long/bright/crisp.

[Gerry]

On 2013-05-10 21:07:57 +0000, Neil Lamb said:

> In 50 years I have owned too many guitars to count without
> embarrassment but including a Byrdland (23.5 inches) and a WD-7 "tele"
> ( 26.5 inches.) My impression of scale length and tone matches TD.
> Short/dark /mellow long/bright/crisp.

And you feel comfortable with these shounds being inherent to the
instrument despite one of them being a solidbody? I don't know how one
can separate the sound of the pickup (and more generally the amp) from
the sound of the guitar itself.

Frankly all of this is a bit beyond me...
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

[Neil Lamb]

Actually the WD-7 was a semi hollow but more to the point all the guitars I have owned with longer scale lengths seem a little brighter than the short length ones to me. Maybe it is caused by other factors . Maybe it is caused by my imagination because with small hands I am struggling to play the longer scale guitars and I overplay.

[rpjazzguitar]

If you construct two guitars, identical except for scale length, you have a decision to make in order to compare them.

Do you hold pitch constant? If so, do you hold string tension or string mass constant? Because, unless you're not going to tune them to the same pitch, either string tension or string mass has to be different between the two guitars.

Is the light/dark (or whatever) comparison the same either way?

And, although nobody seems to talk about string stiffness, it is definitely an issue. If the strings were infinitely limp, there would be no problem with higher harmonic vibrating in a shorter scale.

A quick google check showed only that DR bass strings are said, in their ad, to be stiffer than normal and thus make harmonics more accurate. Although string stiffness there are few manufacturers touting it as a selling point.

. I don't know if that means you could get a limper string on a shorter scale to sound the same as a stiffer string on a longer scale, but it would affect it and presumably be closer.

[rpjazzguitar]

A word got lost. That should have said, "although string stiffness matters", etc.