Eb
Pt
I play along with the recordings to learn new songs.
This is driving me nuts.
Either I have to retune between songs, transpose or have two guitars
with one tuned to Eb.
What would you do?
Pt
Biffy the Elephant Shrew
Buy a capo?
Your pal,
Biffy the Elephant Shrew
Nil
rec.music.makers.guitar.jazz:
> What would you do?
Transpose?
Use a capo?
Gerry
> About a third of the songs I'm working on have the guitar tuned to Eb.
Why? Because you need a low Eb? Because you need just those specific
open-strings for some effect? These are the only reasons I can think
of.
> I play along with the recordings to learn new songs.
I'm not sure the connection between these two. The recordings are in
Eb, why don't you play the guitar in the key of E, rather than
transcribing it.
> This is driving me nuts.
> Either I have to retune between songs, transpose or have two guitars
> with one tuned to Eb.
> What would you do?
Retune the recordings. If MP3's, I'd use Transcribe! (available on the
Mac and PC), if a turntable mine is tunable.
But I'm not sure why you need to do that. When playing with records I
get as close as I can to the tuning of the record, and when finished I
change it to the key of preference.
--
///---
oasysco
Are you talking about open Eb tuning or the tune being in Eb?
If the latter then I'm agreed with Gerry on playing it in E.
If the former, good luck on re-tuning and playing in any open tuning
:)- I'd play play barre chords an double stops elsewhere on the neck
instead. The only problem comes in if its fingerpicked with lots of
open string chord voicings; then I'd resort to a capo and figure out
some other way of playing it rather than retune my guitar.
What are a couple of the tunes?
Greg
>
> Pt
Pt
oasysco wrote:
> Are you talking about open Eb tuning or the tune being in Eb?
>
> If the latter then I'm agreed with Gerry on playing it in E.
>
> If the former, good luck on re-tuning and playing in any open tuning
> :)- I'd play play barre chords an double stops elsewhere on the neck
> instead. The only problem comes in if its fingerpicked with lots of
> open string chord voicings; then I'd resort to a capo and figure out
> some other way of playing it rather than retune my guitar.
>
> What are a couple of the tunes?
>
> Greg
One is a country type song called Anymore by Travis Tritt.
It is written in C but it is recorded in Cb or B if you wish.
They tune the guitars and bass down a half step.
Our singer sings it in C but the recording is in B.
I play note for note and it is difficult to play in a different key
than what I learn it in.
I do use some open strings.
Another one is Hanging by a moment.
Not only is this tuned down a half step but it uses a dropped D.
Db in this case.
I cured the problem.
I found a plugin for Winamp that allows you to change keys by half
tones and keep the same tempo.
It is called "Pacemaker".
Great tool and it is free.
Pt
ott...@hotmail.com
Tune lower and use a copo, or if you have guitar synth, tune it there.
Bg
ott...@hotmail.com
Bandstand that's tuned down or Eb fo the tunes where that's necesary.
Bg
Rick Ross
"Pt" <pea...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1166377976.7...@t46g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Pt
That is probably what I will do.
We may just all tune down and stay there.
I play FOUR in Eb.
Good thing there is no vocal.
Pt
Sean
<biffy...@aol.com> said:
If you invented a downwards capo I bet you could make a lot of money
from the open E crowd.
--
Always be sincere, but never be serious.
Allan Watts
jaz
number of pop/blues bands, it's very common for the guitarists to tune
to Eb or even D or Db. I use the transcribe program to bump the pitch
to E so I can transcribe the open strings properly. One day, I'd like
to have a strat dedicated to Eb tuning because I think it sounds so
much richer to tune down and use heavier strings but I've never done it
other than a one week experiment in which I really enjoyed the tone but
had some difficulty reading on a gig!
ott...@hotmail.com
jaz wrote:
> If you're transcribing anything by Hendrix, SRV, Joe Bonamassa and any
> number of pop/blues bands, it's very common for the guitarists to tune
> to Eb or even D or Db. I use the transcribe program to bump the pitch
> to E so I can transcribe the open strings properly. One day, I'd like
> to have a strat dedicated to Eb tuning because I think it sounds so
> much richer to tune down and use heavier strings but I've never done it
> other than a one week experiment in which I really enjoyed the tone but
> had some difficulty reading on a gig!
A friend of mine used keep his guitar tuned down a Whole-step for doing
duo work withg a
Horn so that they could use one book and not have to transpose.
Bg
Derek
How do you keep a guitar in tune that low? I have trouble enough when
going drop D, unless you are using a baritone, dropping a step or more
sounds like tuning between every song.
jaz
Using .013 to .056 is one way...Lots of players tune to Db. There's one
band that tunes down to C.
Gerry
Sight transposing for guitarists shouldn't be a problem, particularly
when doing it with Bb players (as you seem to indicate). It's just a
trick. Anybody who can read--just okay--can read (just okay) and sight
transpose.
Put your hand on the fifth fret, put the sheet music on yoru left, pull
the neck out of your vision, tell yourself you're on the 7th fret. Read.
Eb screws with your brain a little more, but as long as you have the
neck of the guitar outside your vision (and peripheral vision), it
shouldn't be a problem.
--
///---
jaz
> Sight transposing for guitarists shouldn't be a problem, particularly
> when doing it with Bb players (as you seem to indicate). It's just a
> trick. Anybody who can read--just okay--can read (just okay) and sight
> transpose.
I disagree. I'm a good reader and it's tough to transpose/sight-read
any complicated music - Particularly if it requires position changes
when you're transposing unless you are really experienced at it.
Gerry
> Gerry's text [reinstalled]:
>> Sight transposing for guitarists shouldn't be a problem, particularly
>> when doing it with Bb players (as you seem to indicate). It's just a
>> trick. Anybody who can read--just okay--can read (just okay) and sight
>> transpose.
>>
>> Put your hand on the fifth fret, put the sheet music on your left, pull
>> the neck out of your vision, tell yourself you're on the 7th fret. Read.
> I disagree. I'm a good reader and it's tough to transpose/sight-read
> any complicated music - Particularly if it requires position changes
> when you're transposing unless you are really experienced at it.
I don't understand why. Is looking at the neck and/or working in lower
positions critical to your reading? If not, it seems you could talk
yourself into thinking you're on a different location on the neck.
It's true that I can't look at a Bb, convert it to a Gb and then play a
Gb. Then continue that on every note or double stop. But if I think my
hand IS on a Bb, when in reality it's on a Gb, I read just as good as
always.
If you're reading demands jumping up 7 frets and down again, yes that
could present problems, as you'd need to check your location. But then
I attempt to sequence things so I don't have to do that even if I'm not
sight-reading.
You follow my thinking?
--
///---
jdah...@uiuc.edu
playing Hendrix....they
both were tuned to Eb....this was my first experience with this. These
guys sometimes
would play half step up to pitch correct and sometimes not. The game
was to figure out
when the tune was on normal pitch and when it wouldn't be. It made me
wish I had a 5
string!
jaz
> I don't understand why. Is looking at the neck and/or working in lower
> positions critical to your reading? If not, it seems you could talk
> yourself into thinking you're on a different location on the neck.
A couple things. For one thing, my awareness of what notes are where on
the fingerboard screws up my ability to auto-transpose like that. When
I see an A my fingers know where an A is so it doesn't work for me to
just pretend like I'm in A but really be playing in Bb.
ray
> On 2006-12-17 19:41:13 -0800, "jaz" <j...@jackzucker.com> said:
>> I disagree. I'm a good reader and it's tough to transpose/sight-read
>> any complicated music - Particularly if it requires position changes
>> when you're transposing unless you are really experienced at it.
>
>
> I don't understand why. Is looking at the neck and/or working in lower
> positions critical to your reading? If not, it seems you could talk
> yourself into thinking you're on a different location on the neck.
Transposing would seem to be one of the few advantages the guitar has
when it comes to reading. I've always been a mediocre reader, even when
I was reading regularly. But if you know a couple spots on the neck
really well, then moving them around and imagining your in the same
position makes transposing a cinch.
Ray
Joey Goldstein
Your trick only works if you stay in a single position when reading, and
most music doesn't sound very good when a guitarist does that. I shift
position constantly, in order to get the phrasing I like to hear. I
would only stay within a single, position for exceptionally simple
diatonic lines. Trying to sight read, even as simple as down a tone,
drives me batty.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/joeygoldstein
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Gerry
I can see that. Particularly if you always play the same scale of
neck. I don't. I also play other stringed instruments, so I'm use to
playing instruments where I can the scale can change radically
(ukelele, mandolin, cavaquinho, etc.). If I play the same guitar I can
tell by feel and/or the placement of my wrist, forearm and shoulder
where I *really* am on the neck. I assume that's what you mean by your
finers "knowing" youre on an A.
Just to clarify we're on the same (figurative) page: When I
sight-transpose I ensure the neck is absolutely out of my peripheral
vision. Then I move my hand out of postion by a fret or two or three.
Usually, after a few bars of playing "wrong" like this I forget that
I'm off by these frets. Sometimes it takes much longer for my brain to
"settle". Then I'm sight transposing.
Another thing I should point out, if I am too close to the nut and can
feel it touch, even very lightly, the side of my index finger, I sort
of "wake up" and it breaks my impression that I'm up a fret or more
higher and everything goes to hell. So it's easier for me to do all
this from the third fret up. Even better: at the 5th and up, so that I
can shift down a few more and still have plenty of insurance.
Anyway, it works for me and certainly seems a skill anyone could
acquire with very little practice.
--
///---
Gerry
> Your trick only works if you stay in a single position when reading
Not true, I shift positions all the time without looking.
As I stated above, if I am moving 7 frets or something then yes it
provides problems. During non-transposing reading I avoid vast skips
anyway, since they make me look away from the sheet music. The average
approach: find the high point and/or low point of the written piece and
then work the fingerings in relation to that. Being in a situation
where I have to skip up 5 frets is bad with or without transposition.
Same with the "pinky-chase" on the high E. If I'm doing that, I wasn't
reading far enough ahead. More likely I didn't scan the piece quickly
before beginning.
> ...and most music doesn't sound very good when a guitarist does that. I
> shift position constantly, in order to get the phrasing I like to hear.
I do to. The critical point is: does one have to look at the neck for
shifts? If not, then this should be able to work. The other gotcha's
still apply of course: open strings, nut-bumping, etc.
> I would only stay within a single, position for exceptionally simple
> diatonic lines.
Ditto. Of course double-stops and chordlets changes not included. I
have to move positions, even in simple pieces if these appear.
> Trying to sight read, even as simple as down a tone, drives me batty.
Me too, that's why I find a trick like this, which works about 85% of
the time, useful.
--
///---
Joey Goldstein
when doing it with Bb players (as you seem to indicate). It's just a
trick. Anybody who can read--just okay--can read (just okay) and sight
transpose.
Put your hand on the fifth fret, put the sheet music on your left, pull
the neck out of your vision, tell yourself you're on the 7th fret. Read."
If it isn't a problem for *you* then you're a much better reader than
most guys.
Gerry
Certainly I said:
>> Sight transposing for guitarists shouldn't be a problem, particularly
>> when doing it with Bb players (as you seem to indicate). It's just a
>> trick. Anybody who can read--just okay--can read (just okay) and sight
>> transpose.
>>
>> Put your hand on the fifth fret, put the sheet music on your left, pull
>> the neck out of your vision, tell yourself you're on the 7th fret. Read.
>
> If it isn't a problem for *you* then you're a much better reader than
> most guys.
Jeez, I'm have a hard time believing that. I respect both you and
Jack's perceptions, and assume from a mechanical standpoint you are
both my superiors so I'm having trouble understanding this. Both of
you seem to think this is some kind of difficult.
Maybe it's like writing with your right hand--not difficult at all for
those who are, first and foremost, right-handed to begin with.
If any readers passing by have never tried this, give it a shot and let
me know what you think.
--
///---
Gerry
> On 2006-12-18 13:21:00 -0800, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> said:
>
> Certainly I said:
>>> Sight transposing for guitarists shouldn't be a problem, particularly
>>> when doing it with Bb players (as you seem to indicate). It's just a
>>> trick. Anybody who can read--just okay--can read (just okay) and sight
>>> transpose.
>>>
>>> Put your hand on the fifth fret, put the sheet music on your left,
Actually this should be put the sheet music on your right, so that you
can't see the neck of your guitar.
richard...@yahoo.com
I just tried it again. I opened a fake book at random, finding In the
Wee Small Hours of the Morning in C. Is there an easier tune to read?
I then tried to play it in D by telling myself I was two frets lower
than I was and twisting my body so I couldn't see the neck.
I found it very difficult. When I play I always know exactly where I am
on the neck and I found it hard to turn this awareness off.
It seems to me that this is possible, but I didn't find it to be easy
-- even though I've occasionally done it by accident.
Rick
On Dec 18, 2:01 pm, Gerry <somewh...@sunny.calif> wrote:
> On 2006-12-18 13:57:25 -0800, Gerry <somewh...@sunny.calif> said:
>
> > On 2006-12-18 13:21:00 -0800, Joey Goldstein <nos...@nowhere.net> said:
>
> > Certainly I said:
> >>> Sight transposing for guitarists shouldn't be a problem, particularly
> >>> when doing it with Bb players (as you seem to indicate). It's just a
> >>> trick. Anybody who can read--just okay--can read (just okay) and sight
> >>> transpose.
>
> >>> Put your hand on the fifth fret, put the sheet music on your left,Actually this should be put the sheet music on your right, so that you
Lumpy
View the notes as intervals instead of letter names.
"I'm playing the note on the 2nd line, I want the note
on the 3rd line". Then simply play a note that's a Maj 3rd
above your current note.
To me, that's one of the glorious things about singing,
and about singing what you play on the guitar (or any
instrument). Singers don't sing A then C# then E. They sing
the first note (because they match what the pianist tells
them is the first note) then a Maj 3rd up then a min
3rd up from that. If the pianist had given them an Ab
instead of an A, the singer would be none the wiser
(unless she was cursed with perfect pitch).
"Anchor" yourself by temporarily convincing yourself where
the unison/octaves and 5ths are.
Lumpy
--
You were the "OPERATION" game voice?
Yes. Take out wrenched ankle.
www.lumpyvoice.com
Gerry
> I've tried this before and found it very confusing.
>
> I just tried it again. I opened a fake book at random, finding In the
> Wee Small Hours of the Morning in C. Is there an easier tune to read?
That's as good as any.
> I then tried to play it in D by telling myself I was two frets lower
> than I was and twisting my body so I couldn't see the neck.
>
> I found it very difficult. When I play I always know exactly where I am
> on the neck and I found it hard to turn this awareness off.
That's the difficulty in its entirety. Concentrate more on the music,
or play a harder piece or play it at a faster tempo maybe. Explicitly
avoid thinking about your horizontal position on your neck. If you
can't convince your self you're in a different position, well you
can't. It takes a moment of start-up for me too. But I can get myself
out of that mode of thinking after a minute or two.
Have you ever read using a capo? If you put a capo on the 2nd fret and
then read a tune in C in "open" position, and thereby transposing to D,
you have the same situation. I'm guessing that will be easier to do
because of locking onto ye olde open position. But it's generally the
same thing.
> It seems to me that this is possible, but I didn't find it to be
> easy--even though I've occasionally done it by accident.
I find it vastly easy: By comparing it to true sight transposition
where I see a note, count the difference to the target location, and
then finger the target. I simply can't do it accurately for more than
a bar or two. And when I stumble I go down hard.
The first time I read a tenor chart (he hadn't shown up) I used this
trickery and screwed up a bunch of notes. But in a minute or two my
attention was locked on the chart, not the guitar neck, and I was safe.
I did this around the same period with Eb charts which were more
difficult because I got confused over where to start and if I lost
postion, I REALLY lost position. But the guys I was working with got
really jazzed over being able to dump their alto charts on me so I got
over it.
--
///---
tom walls
some...@sunny.calif says...
It's a perceptual thing. I've known people to approach it the same way
that you do with no qualms, but it pains me just to think about it. I
don't have a problem playing a variety of tunings, but -- once you
retune -- a Bb is a Bb regardless of where it falls.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
Marc Sabatella
Do what everyone else does - learn to play songs that are in Eb without
re-tuning your whole guitar. As you may be gathering form the other
responses, there should be absolutely no reason to re-tune just because
the song is in Eb. OK, there might be rare cases when you really need
that low Eb, but this shouldn't be a third of your repertoire - more
like 1%, tops.
---------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
Music, art, & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
http://www.outsideshore.com/
ott...@hotmail.com
Go to the next higher string Guage or 2.
Bg
jaz
Marc Sabatella wrote:
> > What would you do?
>
> Do what everyone else does - learn to play songs that are in Eb without
> re-tuning your whole guitar.
Except that's *NOT* what everyone else does. At least not the everyone
else that's inspired by Hendrix, SRV or Bonamassa or some of the
nu-metal/hardcore music that dominates the radio charts these days. Of
course, that's possibly a subject out of context within this group. :)
ott...@hotmail.com
jaz wrote:
> Marc Sabatella wrote:
> > > What would you do?
> >
> > Do what everyone else does - learn to play songs that are in Eb without
> > re-tuning your whole guitar.
>
I think what Original Poster means that in Pop/Blues etc there are
groups playing in Concert Pitch of Eb , but playing in traditional Open
String forms as if being in "E".
You can't really take that full sound of Open "E" and play it in
lower(non open positions)
It's about playing the Licks/Figures, not just reading the Melody.
It's easier to Capo and transpose Up a bit, but not to drop the key.
If you're doing Beach Boys, Chuck Berry etc, you have to keep the
flavor of the Original feel and sound.
If I had to play that material I'd have a couple of guitars and expect
the Big Bucks for doing that, or I'd use a Synth device where the Real
guitar sound is muted.
Bg
Gerry
There are always exceptions to rules, particularly when you look to
very different styles. If we look to ethnic flautists, they'd cut and
carve a new instrument. But I think it's fair to say, that's not what
a guitarist would do when changing keys.
I've played the bulk of my adult life in Eb, Ab and Bb. Sometimes I
carp about the fact that even when playing solo, I'm actually LESS
comfortable playing in E, A and D. Not infrequently I'll take a 3-4
fret skip and wind up in the wrong place, having ineptly changed keys
by accident. Oh well. I guess it beats not being able to play in flat
keys...
--
///---