Theory/Improv question re: Barry Harris Method
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deriving four dominant chords from a related diminished chord. He does
this by lowering each note of the diminished chord so for
C# dim7 you get C7, Eb7, Gb7, and A7.
My question then is this: if you are improvising over a C7 altered
dominant moving to Fmajor, is he saying that you can use all four of
the dom 7 chord scales that are based off those roots?
C D E F G A Bb
Eb F G Ab Bb C Db
Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb
A B C# D E F# G
The tensions you get from this approach are:
b5, b7, b9, #9, b13, plus the natural 3 and 7 ( I think of the the
natural 7 as a passing tone in the dom7th" bebop" scale.)
You can get the same tension notes (except the B natural) by playing
the altered scale
C Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb C ( b9 #9 3 b5 #5 b7)
So what would be the rationale for incorporating all four of the above
mentioned scales into an approach for playing over altered dominants
if you can get the same tensions by thinking in terms of one scale
instead of four?
pmfan57
Sounds more like Pat Martino's approach.
I think Barry Harris, and everyone else really, incorporates into his
approach the fact that any diminished 7 chord actually *is* a Dom7b9
chord without a root, and in fact can be viewed as four different
ones. Thus, Bbo7, for example, is A7b9, C7b9, Eb7b9 and F#7b9 (each
without its respective root).
In harmonizing major and minor scales, the Barry Harris method uses,
for example, different inversions of the major sixth chord for
harmonizing a top note that is the root, third, the fifth and the
sixth. All the other scale tones (and one extra see below) are
harmonized with a diminished 7 chord having that note as the top
note. Because of the equivalence noted above, if, say you are
harmonizing Gmajor, you would harmonize the A note in the scale with
an A diminished 7 chord, but it would be functioning as a D7b9 chord,
i.e., a V7b9 chord. So when you play the scale this way ascending for
example, you are harmonizing with Imaj6 (G on top) then V7b9 (A on
top) then I maj6 (B on top), then V7b9 (C on top), etc. Of course you
need the extra note in the bebop major 6 scale to allow you to do this
all the way up. That is, your scale in this case includes the raised
fifth as well as the perfect fifth and major sixth.
Rick Stone has great articles on this, in which he describes it much
better than me, at his web site.
Here is the one concerning harmonizing using the major sixth. There
are two others relating to minor as well.
335
>
> Sounds more like Pat Martino's approach.
Yes, it does, but I think Pat emphasizes the ii minor of each of the
dominants.
>
> I think Barry Harris, and everyone else really, incorporates into his
> approach the fact that any diminished 7 chord actually *is* a Dom7b9
> chord without a root, and in fact can be viewed as four different
> ones. Thus, Bbo7, for example, is A7b9, C7b9, Eb7b9 and F#7b9 (each
> without its respective root).
>
> In harmonizing major and minor scales, the Barry Harris method uses,
> for example, different inversions of the major sixth chord for
> harmonizing a top note that is the root, third, the fifth and the
> sixth. All the other scale tones (and one extra see below) are
> harmonized with a diminished 7 chord having that note as the top
> note. Because of the equivalence noted above, if, say you are
> harmonizing Gmajor, you would harmonize the A note in the scale with
> an A diminished 7 chord, but it would be functioning as a D7b9 chord,
> i.e., a V7b9 chord. So when you play the scale this way ascending for
> example, you are harmonizing with Imaj6 (G on top) then V7b9 (A on
> top) then I maj6 (B on top), then V7b9 (C on top), etc. Of course you
> need the extra note in the bebop major 6 scale to allow you to do this
> all the way up. That is, your scale in this case includes the raised
> fifth as well as the perfect fifth and major sixth.
>
> Rick Stone has great articles on this, in which he describes it much
> better than me, at his web site.
>
> Here is the one concerning harmonizing using the major sixth. There
> are two others relating to minor as well.
>
> http://www.jazzand.com/Rick_Stone/Articles/JJG-2000%20May-Chordal%20M...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Thanks for those links.
Joey Goldstein
My understanding of the BH materials is pretty minimal.
But based on what I do know I'd say that his suggested scales for C7b9
in F would be:
F6 diminished - F G A Bb C C# D E F - starting on G Bb Db or E [This is
the preferred scale for C7b9 as V7 in F major and has mostly unaltered
extensions except for the b9.]
Dbm6 diminished - Db Eb Fb Gb Ab A Bb C Db - starting on Db Fb Ab or Bb
The latter is a better choice for the fully altered C7alt type of sound.
If you want to mess around with the other dim7-related scales then I
think you'd be looking at:
Ab6 diminished (aka Fm7 diminished) - Ab Db C Db Eb E F G Ab - starting
on Bb Db E or G [Note: This is the preferred scale for C7b9 as V7 in F
minor and has mostly altered extensions.]
B6 diminished - B C# D# E F# G G# A# B - starting on C# E G or A#
D6 diminished - D E F# G A A# B C# D - starting on E G A# or C#
or
Em6 diminished - E F# G A B B# C# D# E - starting on E, etc.
Gm6 diminished - G A Bb C D D# E F# G - starting on G, etc.
Bbm6 diminished - Bb C Db Eb F F# G A Bb - starting on Bb, etc.
But I don't think, based on the way you've asked about this, that these
scales are going to give you the colours you're looking for.
The sound you're looking for is probably the Dbm6 diminished scale over
C7alt or the Ab6 diminished scale over C7b9b13.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
335
>
> Yes, it does, but I think Pat emphasizes the ii minor of each of the
> dominants.
>
...based on the name, pmfan, I'm betting you already knew that :-)
335
> But I don't think, based on the way you've asked about this, that these
> scales are going to give you the colours you're looking for.
>
> The sound you're looking for is probably the Dbm6 diminished scale over
> C7alt or the Ab6 diminished scale over C7b9b13.
>
> --
I'm not sure how BH applies the maj6 diminished. I thought one
possible application is for for playing over major chords in order to
create active lines that move between the tonic and the dominant and
back to tonic. But your explanation of the various dim6 scales for
dominants makes sense too.
My understanding of BH's method, based on talking very briefly to one
of his students, is that he recommends practicing the 4 dominant
scales that I outlined above by combining them with each other to
create lines. The most obvious one to me anyway would be C7 and Gb7
dominant (b7) scales for the tritone substitution. Those two scales
( plus the other two dominant scales you can derive from the dimished
chord) give you the same altered tensions that you get from the 7th
mode of melodic minor, so I'm wondering about the utility of thinking
in terms of four scales instead of one.
One other aspect of the BH method that I've just begun to look is that
by practicing the four dominant scales based off the diminished, you
are really practicing other related chord movements too. So by
starting with C#dim7 you derive C7 Eb7 Gb7 and A7. And then by
practicing the C7 scale and the A7 scale together to make lines,( for
example), you are ALSO practicing how to play over Em7b5 to A7 since
the C7 dominant scale notes will "work" on Em7b5 and of course the A7
scale works on the A dominant chord for resolution to D minor. I think
BH develops this related chord movement idea pretty extensively but I
don't have it together yet.
pmfan57
>
> - Show quoted text -
Forgot to mention that Rick learned it from Barry Harris, although the
article does mention this.
Rick Stone
> I'm not sure how BH applies the maj6 diminished. I thought one
> possible application is for for playing over major chords in order to
> create active lines that move between the tonic and the dominant and
> back to tonic. But your explanation of the various dim6 scales for
> dominants makes sense too.
When I was studying with him, he used the 6th/diminished scales (both
major and minor) mainly for creating HARMONIC interest and chord
voicings, voice-leading, etc. You can also come up with some pretty hip
melodic patterns off of these scales, mainly by alternating arpeggios of
the 6th & diminished chords from a given scale.
> My understanding of BH's method, based on talking very briefly to one
> of his students, is that he recommends practicing the 4 dominant
> scales that I outlined above by combining them with each other to
> create lines. The most obvious one to me anyway would be C7 and Gb7
> dominant (b7) scales for the tritone substitution. Those two scales
> ( plus the other two dominant scales you can derive from the dimished
> chord) give you the same altered tensions that you get from the 7th
> mode of melodic minor, so I'm wondering about the utility of thinking
> in terms of four scales instead of one.
In terms of dominant usage, the diminished boils down to relatives.
It's easier to move to and from dominants that are related through the
same diminished. Consider that G7 Bb7 Db7 and E7 all come from the same
diminished. Then think about the following progressions:
G7 to Db7 to C (over a ii-7 V7 I),
Bb7 to Db7 to Cm (over a minor key ii V I)
G7 to C to E7 to Am (modulating from major to relative minor)
These are some of the easiest and most common harmonic moves to play,
and some of the first we learn (as Barry likes to say "when you're a
child, you play with your relatives first.")
> One other aspect of the BH method that I've just begun to look is that
> by practicing the four dominant scales based off the diminished, you
> are really practicing other related chord movements too. So by
> starting with C#dim7 you derive C7 Eb7 Gb7 and A7. And then by
> practicing the C7 scale and the A7 scale together to make lines,( for
> example), you are ALSO practicing how to play over Em7b5 to A7 since
> the C7 dominant scale notes will "work" on Em7b5 and of course the A7
> scale works on the A dominant chord for resolution to D minor. I think
> BH develops this related chord movement idea pretty extensively but I
> don't have it together yet.
EXACTLY!
--
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
website: www.rickstone.com
epk: www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Other sites: www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
www.facebook.com/rickstonemusic www.reverbnation.com/rickstone
www.youtube.com/jazzand www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
http://jazzguitarny.ning.com
Joey Goldstein
Right. But I thought that you were asking about C7b9 and/or C7alt.
If you wanted to apply the above rationale to C7b9 (as paired up with
Gm7b5), then you'd be dealing with the Eb7 dominant scale: Eb F G Ab Bb
C Db D Eb
As Rick has pointed out, BH looks at the maj6 and min6 diminished scales
more as a device for generating harmony than for generating melody.
Most of his melody exercises that I've seen have involved taking the
regular 7-tone chord-scales and adding chromatic passing tones as needed
in order to keep strong notes on strong beats.
So, on C7b9, as V7 in F major, we might decide that the "strong" notes
we want to focus on are the strong notes that are found in the C mix b2
scale, other than F:
C Db E G A and Bb
In other words, we generally don't want any F's on strong beats.
So, we might do 1/8 note runs like these:
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1
C Db E F G A Bb B C
On C7b9, as V7 in F minor we might decide that the "strong" notes we
want to focus on are the strong notes that are found in the C mix b2b6
scale, other than F:
C Db E G Ab and Bb
In other words, we generally don't want any F's on strong beats.
So, we might do 1/8 note runs like these:
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1
C Db E F G Ab Bb B C
We can run the C half-whole diminished scale in 1/8 notes starting on Db
and we'll have the strongest notes that this scale possesses on C7b9
(except for the root) on the strongest beats:
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1
Db Eb E F# G A Bb C Db
We can do sim with C altered dominant paired up with C7#5 by adding a
chromatic passing tone between Ab and Bb running it from Db E G or Bb:
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1
Db Eb E Gb Ab A Bb C Db
We could also do sim without the added baggage of envisioning a 7-note
chord scale as our skeleton.
Eg. Let's say that on C7 in F minor we just want look at C Db Eb E F# G
Ab and Bb as being our "strong" notes.
That's already an 8-note scale. Starting an 1/8 note run on any of those
notes will place strong notes on strong beats. [You could look at that
pitch collection as being like a C altered scale with a chromatic PT
between Gb and Ab btw.]
But other possibilities for 1/8 note runs with strong notes on strong
beats also exist here, such as:
1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1 & 1
C Db Eb E F# G Ab A Bb B C
Bb C Db D Eb E F# G Ab A Bb
Etc.
My own opinion on all of this is that understanding the concept of the
strong and weak beats as well as what passing tones are and how they can
be arranged in time, is much more important and much more musically
useful than simply learning to run some common "bebop scales" and
associated patterns.
The most interesting thing that caught my attention in the BH stuff that
I've seen is the way he derives chords from the maj6 dim and min6 dim
scales. I've never seen anybody anywhere else suggest anything remotely
similar to the more advanced ideas in BH's stuff in this area.
Of course passing dim7 chords are a really common idea. But he goes
*way* beyond that and gets into some really cool sounds.
Joey Goldstein
And Jerry Bergonzi's book about bebop scales goes into all of this in
more detail than anybody could ever need.
Rick Stone
> My own opinion on all of this is that understanding the concept of the
> strong and weak beats as well as what passing tones are and how they can
> be arranged in time, is much more important and much more musically
> useful than simply learning to run some common "bebop scales" and
> associated patterns.
Agreed. The "rules" that Barry teaches are kind of like training wheels
on a bicycle. They're really more about developing your facility on
your instrument and your ability to HEAR this stuff. It does get a lot
more involved than just "running" the bebop scales though. Have you
watched the DVDs? They give a pretty clear mandate for one a person
needs to do to develop REAL facility with this stuff. I doubt that many
people on this ng can play everything on those videos up to tempo (Hell,
there's stuff on there that I feel like I need to go back and practice
again).
> The most interesting thing that caught my attention in the BH stuff that
> I've seen is the way he derives chords from the maj6 dim and min6 dim
> scales. I've never seen anybody anywhere else suggest anything remotely
> similar to the more advanced ideas in BH's stuff in this area.
> Of course passing dim7 chords are a really common idea. But he goes
> *way* beyond that and gets into some really cool sounds.
Yes, the 6th/diminished is very cool that way. Barry looks at those two
chords as a kind of tension/release. But the interesting thing is how
they can be combined to create movement with the notes from the
diminished used as a kind of "suspension" on a 6th chord (and vice
versa). And also don't forget that there's a Minor chord found on the
5th, and a Major chord on the 7th of a Dominant, so this gives you a
place to hook these harmonies into the Dominant 7th harmonies as well.
It's really more about lines and keeping things moving. I think I wrote
some good examples of this in one of those Just Jazz Guitar articles
(that are now up on my website).
--
Rick Stone
pmfan57
> < 1KViewDownload
Those three articles are great. You can play those ideas as block
chord studies. And if you arpeggiate everything, you get something
similar to the exercises that Roni Ben Hur has in his Talk Jazz book.
335
>
> My own opinion on all of this is that understanding the concept of the
> strong and weak beats as well as what passing tones are and how they can
> be arranged in time, is much more important and much more musically
> useful than simply learning to run some common "bebop scales" and
> associated patterns.
In addition to adding the half steps, another aspect of his melodic
approach is to combine the 4 related dominant chord scales (that are
derived from the diminished)to create lines. From C#dim 7 you get C7
Eb7 Gb7 and A7
so an example of the BH approach to combining the C7 dominant scale
( mix) and the Gb dominant scale into a line over a ii V in F (with
the added half steps) might be something like this:
4 & 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & 1
C B |Bb Ab Gb F E Eb Db B | C
Another aspect of his approach is that by playing the four related
dominants that are derived from the diminished, you are able to imply
other chord movements.
So if you have the C7 Eb7 Gb7 and A7 chords you can obviously play the
C7 dominant scale to resolve to F. But...you can use those other
dominant scales to implay and play over other chord movements too.
example: combine the A7 and Gb7 scales to play over C#m7 to F#7(Gb7).
example: combine the A7 and Eb7 scales to play over Em7 to A7.
If I understand the BH approach, it is really the related diminished
chord that forms the basis for it. I'm just getting into the BH
materials so I'm far from being an expert on how to explain and apply
this stuff.
Joey Goldstein
Yes. I've seen some of your examples of combining the maj6 (or min6)
tone with the tones of the dim7 chord (and visa versa) and they were
very cool.
Joey Goldstein
OK. Here's how I look at the symmetrical division of the octave ala dim7
chords and diminished scales into 4 equal divisions thing and how it
applies to blowing over dom7 chords.
My main point is going to be that there is a threshold in all of this
that, once crossed, takes you into true bi-tonality.
Yes C7 Eb7 Gb7 and A7 are all related in that they all occur as diatonic
chords within the octatonic symmetrical diminished scale (C Db Eb E F# G
A Bb C).
C7 and Gb7 have another special symmetry between them in that they share
the same tritone interval, enharmonically speaking. I.e. E-Bb = Fb-Bb.
The same symmetry exists between Eb7 and A7. Db-G = C#-G.
But there is no such extra symmetry between C7 and A7 or between C7 and
Eb7, or between Gb7 and A7 or between Gb7 and Eb7.
And C9 Eb9 Gb9 and A9 are *not* diatonic to the symmetrical diminished
scale. Nor are they all diatonic to any other scale except for the
chromatic scale.
The notes of the sym dim scale happen to create no avoid notes on any of
these 4 chords. Lines that work over C7 that are comprised only of the
notes of this scale will also "work" (in that there will be no avoid
notes) on the 3 other dom7 chords as well.
Also... The chords tones of all 4 of these chords don't create any avoid
notes on any of the 4 chords.
We could put all 4 of these chords into several big 8-note chords, like;
C7(b9,#9,#11,13), Eb7(b9,#9,#11,13), Gb7(b9,#9,#11,13),
A7(b9,#9,#11,13), Edim7(9,11,b13,maj7), Gdim7(9,11,b13,maj7),
Bbdim7(9,11,b13,maj7), or Dbdim7(9,11,b13,maj7).
I.e. It's *as if* all of these different chords are all the same chord.
But when you leave the dim scale relationship behind and start playing
off of the mixolydian scales (or other chord-scales) built off of the 4
dom7 roots instead, then you bring into the mix several other tones that
are not diatonic to the dim scale and are potentially much more
dangerous as far as maintaining intelligibility and coherence in your
lines is concerned.
Eg.
If you decide to play off of C7 (in F major) as if you're on A7 and you
use A mixolydian (or the bebop scale version of A mix with the chromatic
passing tone between G and A) then you've brought a B natural into the
mix which can be a very unseemly note on C7 if care is not taken in its
usage.
Playing off of A7 via A mix while C7 is sounding, unless great care is
taken to not emphasize the B natural, is much more of a bi-tonal effect
than playing of A7 via A half-whole diminished. It's like you're in the
key of D (or A mix) at the same time as being in the key of F.
But... If you pair A7b9 up with either Em7 or Em7b5 - and play over C7
as if you're really on Em7-A7b9 or Em7b5-A7b9 - then any dissonances you
create on C7 during the Em portion of your line is dissipated when you
arrive on the chord tones of A7b9 because the chord tones of A7b9 are
all strong notes on C7b9. This is especially true if on the A7b9 portion
of your line you use the A half-whole scale.
Etc.
So, while it is relatively safe to play off of C half-whole, A
half-whole, Gb half-whole or Eb half-hole when the real chord is C7b9;
the other chord-scales that are associated with A7 Gb7 and Eb7 will be
several orders of magnitude trickier to make sound "right".
But even when these extended relations don't quite sound "right" there
is a logic to them that the ear might still respond to. It's certainly
not "wrong" headed to explore these sounds. Just don't expect them to be
as easy to hear as the stuff entirely based off of the diminished scale.
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>
> - Show quoted text -
I don't think he is only saying that you should play A mix over C7
because it's derived from the same diminished chord. I think he means
that the four dominant chords you get from the diminished enable you
to play several different chord movements ( not just C7 to F) with
those same four scales. I may have overemphasized the application of
this to C7 to F progression in a previous post.
Anyway, by combining the A7- C7 scales for example, you are able to
play on a C#m7b5 to F#7 progression. And/Or by playing the scales for
Eb7 and A7 you are able to play over a Bbm-7 Eb7 progression. So I
think his point is that if you understand the relationship and the
reach of those four scales you can apply them to several different
chord progressions.
I actually find this to be sort of a difficult way to think about
things, but I haven't spent much time with it yet. That's really why I
posed the first question, which was, if you can get all the altered
tensions on a dominant from the 7th mode of melodic minor ( or most of
them from the symmetrical diminished) why think in terms of four
different scales while you're improvising?
But now that I've gotten a little more into it, I see that question
was kind of limited. I think the BH thing ( at least this aspect of
it) is about being able to cover a number of different chord movements
with the four scales. I know there's a lot of other stuff that he gets
from the dim6 scales that I haven't worked with yet.
Hey Rick, If you are out there...does this make sense along the lines
of what Barry intended?
Joey Goldstein
I was not trying to describe BH's ideas above.
I was describing my own ideas.
> I think he means
> that the four dominant chords you get from the diminished enable you
> to play several different chord movements ( not just C7 to F) with
> those same four scales. I may have overemphasized the application of
> this to C7 to F progression in a previous post.
>
> Anyway, by combining the A7- C7 scales for example, you are able to
> play on a C#m7b5 to F#7 progression. And/Or by playing the scales for
> Eb7 and A7 you are able to play over a Bbm-7 Eb7 progression. So I
> think his point is that if you understand the relationship and the
> reach of those four scales you can apply them to several different
> chord progressions.
>
> I actually find this to be sort of a difficult way to think about
> things, but I haven't spent much time with it yet. That's really why I
> posed the first question, which was, if you can get all the altered
> tensions on a dominant from the 7th mode of melodic minor ( or most of
> them from the symmetrical diminished) why think in terms of four
> different scales while you're improvising?
There are times, to be sure, that you'll want to sound all of the
altered extensions as well as the altered 5th of a dom7 chord.
But that's just one of a great many ways to approach dom7 chords.
Remember that the term "altered dom7 chord" is bandied about pretty
loosely these days. Some people see C13b9 as being an "altered dom7
chord". And it is "altered", on one level. It's got an "altered" 9th.
But it's not really "a dom7alt" chord, if you get my drift.
All of the BH-ish scale relationships you seem to be looking at happen
to mix altered and unaltered degrees to various extents.
On C7:
The C7 bebop scale (C D E F G A Bb B C) has only unaltered extensions
and chord tones. (Also used on Em7b5.)
The Eb7 bebop scale (Eb F G Ab Bb C Db D Eb) has a b9 and a #9 as well
as a maj 9th, a P11th, and a b13. (Also used on Gm7b5.)
The Gb7 bebop scale (Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb Fb F Gb) has a b5/#11, a b13, a
#9, and a P11th. Plus, it has the avoid note, maj7. (Also used on Bbm7b5.)
The A7 bebop scale (A B C# D E F# G G# A) has a maj 13th as well as a
b13, a b9, a #11, and a b13, Plus, it has the avoid note, B. (Also used
on C#m7b5.)
So, if you want to get into those types of chord-scale relationships
it's not really about playing on "altered dominants". It's about playing
on V7 chords, period. And it's about manipulating these bi-tonal effects
in musically satisfying ways.
> But now that I've gotten a little more into it, I see that question
> was kind of limited. I think the BH thing ( at least this aspect of
> it) is about being able to cover a number of different chord movements
> with the four scales. I know there's a lot of other stuff that he gets
> from the dim6 scales that I haven't worked with yet.
Again... *To me*, it's about the strong and weak beats and what gets
emphasized and what is not emphasized. But this "norm' can be reversed
to great effect also, by placing harmonically strong notes on weaker
beats than the harmonically weak notes, for example.
For me, it's also about controlling leaps *away* from the avoid notes.
When you leap away from a note (which is not the same thing as leaping
*to* a note btw) the ear tends to hear the note leaped away from as
being part of the harmony. If the note you leap away from is a note that
clashes with the harmony, and if it is not part of a melodic device that
serves as part of a delayed resolution (like an enclosure) or as a chord
tone of a chord that is being intentionally superimposed over the
chord-of-the moment (eg. arpeggiating a C7-Dm7-C7 sequence over a static
C7 chord), then leaping away from it tends to sound "wrong".
Of course all of these things we've been talking about are only dealing
with vertical relationships on the chord-of-the-moment. If we want
things to sound musical we generally can't ignore the way these notes
all also happen to operate within the *key* the music is in.
For most of us that'll be accomplished by experimenting with these
sounds and then clinging to the ones that sound the most "right" or
"normal", and we'll do this more or less intuitively.
But sometimes just stepping back and looking at the pitches from the
aspect of the key in a more analytical way can be helpful too.
> Hey Rick, If you are out there...does this make sense along the lines
> of what Barry intended?
rpjazzguitar
You're asking why it might be worthwhile to think of 4 overlapping
scales rather than the one scale with all the notes.
The answer may be that, for a certain style of playing, it allows the
player to add structure. If, you ran, for example, just the chord
tones of the 4 diminished chords, one chord after the other, the
result would sound more structured than if you just took the 8 notes
involved and ran them in order.
If you're approaching the solo by running a certain structured motif
through changes, this might produce an interesting result that you
might not arrive at thinking about the entire tone set at once.
It's not so different than using major pentatonics rather than major
scales. Thinking that way makes you leave out some notes, which
changes the sound and can add structure.
joel fass
Wow. You guys are making me dizzy with all this numerical stuff. I
just try to find some notes that sound good, that I hear, and play
them.
BTW, I've known, loved, and admired Barry for many years. I was part
of the JCT when he had it. Witnessed many classes and went to more
than a few. Heard him talk about that 6th-diminished stuff and it made
sense. He is a grat man who has helped many musicians in this town,
including yiours truly. But I just can't view music that way, unless
I'm teaching and have to explain things, and many of Barry's students
tend to be annoying sycophants that view him as a God.
. If you can't hear good content all the theory in the world won't do
shizzle for you. Listen to the masters and look within.
335
Hi Joel,
Thanks for your thoughts on this. I agree with what you've said here,
but I also think it's legit to delve into some theory to open the ear
to some potentially new sounds. I was simply looking to the BH stuff
for a kick in the ass that would get me to try out some new ideas. I
don't expect miracles from it and I'm not seeking the one true way or
anything like that.
Rick Stone
> Wow. You guys are making me dizzy with all this numerical stuff. I
> just try to find some notes that sound good, that I hear, and play
> them.
>
> BTW, I've known, loved, and admired Barry for many years. I was part
> of the JCT when he had it. Witnessed many classes and went to more
> than a few. Heard him talk about that 6th-diminished stuff and it made
> sense. He is a grat man who has helped many musicians in this town,
> including yiours truly. But I just can't view music that way, unless
> I'm teaching and have to explain things, and many of Barry's students
> tend to be annoying sycophants that view him as a God.
>
> . If you can't hear good content all the theory in the world won't do
> shizzle for you. Listen to the masters and look within.
Joel,
I agree, some people get so caught up in the theory that they lose sight
of the forest for the trees (and some of the explanations I read on this
group seem to get pretty convoluted). I remember talking with Barry
about this stuff about 25 years ago, and he basically said "you can just
play what you hear, but sometimes theory will help you learn to hear
something new." (I know I'm paraphrasing, but that's basically the
intent of what he said).
That's pretty much how I use it. I can't actually "think" about any of
that when I play, but when I practice or when I write, the knowledge
might lead me in a certain direction to try something. Theory sometimes
helps you to know where to go looking for a particular sound, rather
than just "poking around" hoping to find something (although that can be
good sometimes too).
--
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
website: www.rickstone.com
epk: www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
joel fass
Don't get me wrong. Barry's stuff is great and really food for
thought. I just get my eyes glazed over listening to 'on this change
you can play this or that'. It's not how people improvise. You get and
idea and go with it. You should be able to explain it, though. You
should have a HANDLE on theory. I like Bill Evans' statement:
intuition should lead knowledge, but if it's out there on its own you
will flounder at some point. It's always good to study. But when it's
time to play, play. That's all I meant.
joel fass
> website:www.rickstone.com
> epk:www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
> Other sites:www.myspace.com/rickstonemusicwww.facebook.com/rickstonemusicwww.reverbnation.com/rickstonewww.youtube.com/jazzandwww.cdbaby.com/all/jazzandhttp://jazzguitarny.ning.com
>
> < 1KViewDownload
Right. See above.
paul
> watched the DVDs? They give a pretty clear mandate for one a person
> needs to do to develop REAL facility with this stuff. I doubt that many
> people on this ng can play everything on those videos up to tempo (Hell,
> there's stuff on there that I feel like I need to go back and practice
> again).
I haven't seen the DVDs, but I have been to a lot of barry's group
classes in NYC and to me, but I agree 100% with the above and feel the
real value is how he presents and drills the information, by singing
lines and getting us to play them back and putting everything in
context of a tune always. it's one thing to understand passing tones,
but it's another to be able to play that stuff at the tempos he calls
in his classes. we were lucky enough to have jimmy lovelace on drums
keeping everyone honest when I was going :).
--paul