guitar makers who try in vain to reach the "jazz" crowd
al
really think he could get jazz guitarists to buy bolt-on solidbodies
w/ vibratos just be calling them "Jazzmaster"?
Some others:
Parker makes a "Jazz" version of the Fly guitar. What is especially
jazzy about this one? It is a hard tail version of the Fly, with gold
hardware. Same pickups, same everything else. Just a hardtail. Why
didn't Parker name it the Fly Hardtail? Oh, because there already is
a Fly Hardtail aimed at the drop-D, subsonic noise rock crowd. But
really, does ANY jazz player use a Fly Jazz?
Hamer makes a guitar called the Newport. It is a carved spruce top
thin hollowbody that is kind of like a modern es-330 and comes either
with p90s and a Bigsby (sort of rockabillyish) or a stop tail and
humbuckers. One color option is "JAzzburst," kind of a reddish
sunburst. At least, in this instance, a Newport w/ humbuckers probably
could cut a jazz gig.
Lowden makes a nylon string acoustic w/ piezo pickup and calls it a
"JAzz model." Apparently it has a slightly narrower neck than a
typical classical and this is what Lowden thinks is jazzy about it.
Given that it is the ONLY nylon model in Lowden's lineup, why don't
they just call it a Lowden Nylon String Guitar? Sure, jazz can be
played on nylon string guitars, but there is really nothing jazzy per
se about this Lowden. You'd also think the name might turn off some
people who want a nylon for classical stuff.
I find the marketing theme here interesting. A trend, really. It
seems there are makers who make guitars that CLEARLY are designed for
jazz, those that make guitars that CLEARLY are not designed for jazz,
and then some that want to make some of the latter but claim they are
jazz guitars. I wonder if: (a) Fender, Parker, Hamer and Lowden
really WANT to attract jazz guitarists as buyers (jazz musicians are
notoriously broke and also known to not switch gear and promiscuosly
as some rock/blues type players), or (b) whether they are trying to
actually attract primarily rock/blues type players merely by
ASSOCIATING the instruments w/ jazz, as if that association, alone,
will give the instrument added credibility. How many jazz guys bought
jazzmasters in the 1950s when they were introducted? How many
rock/surf/amatuers bought them thinking "hey, this is Fender's top of
the line model.. it must really be something special.. gee, JAZZ guys
play these!" Same for the Parker (how many guys are comping on a
Parker in a local organ trio?), Hamer (I bet most guys w/ a Newport
don't know who Grant Green is) and Lowden (I bet most are used for
Celtic, neoclassical type stuff).
Has "jazz" become just a status token for most people? I notice lots
of trndy clothing stores and coffee shops play jazz in the background
when most of their patrons don't own any jazz albums. The Au Bon Pain
near me pumps out smooth jazz and retro jump swing so everyone waiting
in line for coffee can feel like they are in either a Gap commercial
or someone's idea of what a sophisticated Paris cafe must sound like.
The workers there likely don't pick the music (most are late teens w/
punkish looks). It's company marketing policy (other ABPs have the
same music... they even sell it on CDs). Its as if some genius thinks
the average shmo will may more for a cup of coffee if they make it
seem sophisticated by associating the jazz. Same as the
aforementioned guitars. Is jazz, the music, dead, only to be
appropriated by "JAZZ," the BRAND?
the one who loves not hates
>jazzy about this one?
I heard a story about this one actually. Apparently Pat Martino went through a
brief period of playing Parker guitars. His .14 guage strings put an
incredible amount of tension on the weak necks of a Parkers. Long story short
he ended up snapping the neck in concert one night and that was the end of
that. But this could be a total lie.
Tim
Rick Ross
"al" <atama...@kl.com> wrote in message
news:b66708c0.0205...@posting.google.com...
Thom_j.
strings. :) Wow he uses some heavy strings! I saw him awhile
ago at our local music store, quiet and mannerly as ever when
he is in there but always willing to chat a bit. What a real nice
guy..
Steve Modica
parker to me as a decent guitar for jazz. The peizo pickup made it
sound very acoustic he said. (I bought a nylon string anyway :)
Steve
Adam Bravo
interesting or uberish. :-)
"al" <atama...@kl.com> wrote in message
news:b66708c0.0205...@posting.google.com...
George4908
>>jazzy about this one?
I'm waiting for someone to come out with a "smooth jazz" guitar before I part
with my hard-earned money. That "jazz" stuff is too hard to play.
Tom Lippincott
>Parker in a local organ trio?), Hamer (I bet most guys w/ a Newport
>don't know who Grant Green is) and Lowden (I bet most are used for
>Celtic, neoclassical type stuff).
your point is well taken, however on the other hand, I played a Parker Fly (not
the "jazz" model though) about a year ago and completely fell in love with the
guitar, and I'm definitely a jazz player, among other things. I didn't end up
buying it because I had a custom guitar on order at the time.
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
Vilppu Huomo
> really think he could get jazz guitarists to buy bolt-on solidbodies
> w/ vibratos just be calling them "Jazzmaster"?
>
>
I'd be surprised if he had thought that way. If you're looking for a
traditional jazz guitar, you don't even look into the direction of solid
bodies. I'm quite sure Leo Fender knew that.
OTOH there's no reason why you could not play jazz with a Gibson Flying V
or rock w/ a 30 000$ Benedetto. It's not the trad jazz guitar sound you get,
but there's no reason why it could't be done. In the end, guitars are as
versatile as their players are.
Although I got to admit you got a point, making a "jazz" version from some
guitar is usually just a marketing trick. It sounds cooler to have "jazz" in
the name tag. BTW, couple of years ago they were selling here ice cream
which was called Jazz (if I remember right)
Vilppu
al
Oh, I don't doubt that some of these "jazz" guitars COULD be used
effectively by a jazz musician. My point was more that I don't think
the makers REALLY are trying to target the jazz crowd so much as trade
on the cache of the word/image/brand "jazz" in an attempt to impress
non-jazz musicians.
By "average schmo", I was kind of tweaking marketing types who think
there is a target audience of very easy to influence, middle of the
road tastes, consumers.
Jack A. Zucker
archtop business? In my opinion, a great jazz guitar is more than a great
acoustic jazz box with a floating pickup added as an afterthought. To me,
much of the beauty of the tone of a great jazz guitar like an L5 comes from
the fact that the pickups are mounted in the body and dampen the vibration
somewhat. I've played a couple guitars made by a VERY popular luthier who's
instruments fetch tens of thousands of $$$ and I was not impressed at all
with the electric sound. Often times, a great acoustic instrument sounds
tinny or nasally when amplified with a floating pickup.
I'm not sure how much better you can get that Wes or early Benson no matter
how much you pay. The other issue is that when you get these super expensive
archtops on the gig in a loud band, you have to make so many amplifier
compromises in order to eliminate feedback that you end up getting a thinner
sound.
It's no coincidence that Benson, Martino and Metheny are all using thin,
plywood top guitars!
--
Web: http://www.jackzucker.com
"al" <atama...@kl.com> wrote in message
news:b66708c0.0205...@posting.google.com...
Dennis O'Neill
> ...
> Has "jazz" become just a status token for most people? ...
> "JAZZ," the BRAND?
Yes, and yes. Just look at statistics on sales of recordings for the
last 10 years (http://www.riaa.org/pdf/2001consumerprofile.pdf): jazz
recordings, however they're defined, account for 3.4% of music sales
in 2001, and has hovered around 3% for the last ten years. In terms
of the marketplace, jazz is only a small niche.
Pete Kerezman
wrote:
>before we respond we must define the "average shmo"
ZZZZzzzzzzzz...zzz.. !?
Texas Pete
G-man
> really think he could get jazz guitarists to buy bolt-on solidbodies
> w/ vibratos just be calling them "Jazzmaster"?
>
> Some others:
>
> Parker makes a "Jazz" version of the Fly guitar. What is especially
> jazzy about this one? It is a hard tail version of the Fly, with gold
> hardware. Same pickups, same everything else. Just a hardtail. Why
> didn't Parker name it the Fly Hardtail? Oh, because there already is
> a Fly Hardtail aimed at the drop-D, subsonic noise rock crowd. But
> really, does ANY jazz player use a Fly Jazz?
>
seriously... Good point about "JAZZ" being a "brand label",
but that's marketing for ya.
As for the parker jazz model, that is one sweet guitar! I'd
love to have one of those. And I think it is "jazzier" than
their regular model - hard tail (don't know too many jazzers who
use the trem) and it also has a different neck pickup - I'm assuming
that it has less output and is cleaner than the regular one.
You can play jazz on just about anything so I just look at
guitars on their own merits and ignore what some non-musician
marketing guy decides to call it. And just because it isn't
hollow and 3 inches deep doesn't mean anything.
G...
Thom_j.
archtops, {Expensive or not} were not the best choice for a
large venue. I'm certainly no expert on archtops, and I enjoy
what I have right now but when you go for volume, it seems
like you must make a compromise [as you state] in one way
or another..yes?
I've read many threads here how you must 'plug-up' f'holes
to stop feed back, so what is the advantage? The accoustic
sound from a high-end' archtop? How many times will you
use strictly "un-plugged" at a gig? Anyone please chime in
and inform.. tia.. thom_j.
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
news:eJwA8.441$x64.2...@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Jack A. Zucker
news:pwAA8.34585$n7.32...@bin8.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com...
> I've read many threads here how you must 'plug-up' f'holes
> to stop feed back, so what is the advantage? The accoustic
> sound from a high-end' archtop? How many times will you
> use strictly "un-plugged" at a gig? Anyone please chime in
> and inform.. tia.. thom_j.
When I studied with Pat Martino, I asked him how he got such a beautiful
sound out of his L-5 on all those early recordings (without getting
feedback). He told me he stuffed the guitars with upholstery grade cotton.
For some reason, many folks in this group - who all love the early Pat
Martino tone - scoffed when I told that story. The following week, I bought
3 yards of cotton and stuffed it into my Johnny Smith. When I went to my
next lesson, Pat "felt" cotton through the F Holes and told me there was not
enough cotton. He said that it should be so tight that it feels solid with
no give. I bought another 4 yards of cotton and stuffed it into my Johnny
Smith. Result - Gorgeous amplified tone and no feedback. I estimate that you
lose about 25% of the acoustic tone but it still sounds better than using a
335 or Les Paul. Note, that for quite some time I have been an advocate of
using a Les Paul Deluxe for jazz so I'm not an acoustic purist by any means.
I just happen to love the sound of an archtop and try as you might, you just
cannot get that tone out of a solid guitar. You can hear it if you go hear
someone live like Pat Metheny who goes back and forth between various solid
and archtop guitars. The solid guitars just do not have the same fullness.
On the other hand, I think many times it's only the guitar players in the
audience who can tell the differenct. I used to hear Paul Bollenback's trio
in DC and he used a headless Ibanez Synth guitar for his regular guitar
stuff. It sounded fabulous. I don't ever remember thinking he ought to be
using an archtop. Later, I saw him using a cheap Epiphone 335 copy.
Now that he's got a bigger name, Fender/Guild approached him and he's using
Fender amps and an Guild X-700 but I can't honestly say I like the tone of
his current setup better than that old Ibanez solid body. Incidentally, he
puts clear packing tape over the F-Holes as does George Benson!
Jaz
Thom_j.
Yeow thats alot of cotton..eh? :) I would like to know, do you feel
or know if the 'cotton' could catch fire being packed in an archtop
like this? I really would like to give this a try, as I do love the great
soynd I get out of my Samick Style L-5 [even if it is not a highend
archtop.] The full'ness and warm tone just cant be match with any
semi or thin-line hollow'body..
hmmm? since Pat only lives about 35 minutes from me maybe I'll
just drop in un'announced and let him show me. Yea right Not! :)
Thanx for the info Jack and please re: if their is fire problem with
cotton? I think I may try this approach? tia.. thom_j.
Jack A. Zucker
Yeow thats alot of cotton..eh? :) I would like to know, do you feel
or know if the 'cotton' could catch fire being packed in an archtop
like this?>>
I doubt it. There's not much air inside it's packed so tightly. I've been
stuffing my guitars since I studied with Pat Martino in the late '70s and
I've never had a problem. If you're worried about fire, there's a synthetic
cotton being manufactured which is fireproor and which most of the
upholstery stores use now. In fact, when I stuffed my Ibanez PM120, I had to
search all over town for a shop which still had cotton. I found an old ma&pa
shop and bought the cotton from them. They were shocked when I told them
what I was using it for! :-)
<<I really would like to give this a try, as I do love the great
soynd I get out of my Samick Style L-5 [even if it is not a highend
archtop.] The full'ness and warm tone just cant be match with any
semi or thin-line hollow'body..>>
I think you'd like it. You lose a little of the acoustic tone but you also
get a fuller mid-range honk ala the early Pat Martino recordings. I have
never been able to get that tone without stuffing...The other concern is
weight of course. My PM120 is pretty heavy now...
<<hmmm? since Pat only lives about 35 minutes from me maybe I'll
just drop in un'announced and let him show me. Yea right Not! :)
Thanx for the info Jack and please re: if their is fire problem with
cotton? I think I may try this approach? tia.. thom_j.>>
Interestingly enough, I called Pat a couple years ago. I had studied with
him for a year and hadn't seen him since the late 70s. I asked him if he
remembered me and he said, "Sure". I told him I was visiting Philly and
wondered if he'd like to get together for coffee or a beer. He said he's
love to and then added, "My fee now is $100/hour". I gulped and told him I'd
call him if it worked out that I had enough time. (I never called!) :-) I
don't blame him but I couldn't justify paying someone to have a drink! LOL
Jaz
Jack A. Zucker
<<If you're worried about fire, there's a synthetic
> cotton being manufactured which is fireproor and which most of the
> upholstery stores use now. >>
I forgot to mention that the synthetic cotton is much more expensive.
Tom Walls
j...@jackzucker.com says...
snip
> him for a year and hadn't seen him since the late 70s. I asked him if he
> remembered me and he said, "Sure". I told him I was visiting Philly and
> wondered if he'd like to get together for coffee or a beer. He said he's
> love to and then added, "My fee now is $100/hour". I gulped and told him I'd
> call him if it worked out that I had enough time. (I never called!) :-) I
> don't blame him but I couldn't justify paying someone to have a drink! LOL
>
> Jaz
>
>
>
he didn't put a premium on his time.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/zeus/
Thom_j.
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
news:UxBA8.11$oG2....@news2.news.adelphia.net...
> <<Jaz,
> Yeow thats alot of cotton..eh? :) I would like to know, do you feel
> or know if the 'cotton' could catch fire being packed in an archtop
> like this?>>
>
> I doubt it. There's not much air inside it's packed so tightly. I've been
> stuffing my guitars since I studied with Pat Martino in the late '70s and
> I've never had a problem. If you're worried about fire, there's a
synthetic
> cotton being manufactured which is fireproor and which most of the
> upholstery stores use now. In fact, when I stuffed my Ibanez PM120, I had
to
> search all over town for a shop which still had cotton. I found an old
ma&pa
> shop and bought the cotton from them. They were shocked when I told them
> what I was using it for! :-)
I wasnt sure & since cotton can up in flames quickly I thought
maybe if you had even a tiny short that caused a spark it might
catch fire.. thats all :)
> <<I really would like to give this a try, as I do love the great
> soynd I get out of my Samick Style L-5 [even if it is not a highend
> archtop.] The full'ness and warm tone just cant be match with any
> semi or thin-line hollow'body..>>
>
> I think you'd like it. You lose a little of the acoustic tone but you also
> get a fuller mid-range honk ala the early Pat Martino recordings. I have
> never been able to get that tone without stuffing...The other concern is
> weight of course. My PM120 is pretty heavy now...
To be perfectly honest a guitar sounding acoustically great
doesnt means much to me.. I've been playing electric solid
bodys so long that the only acoustics I like is just listening
to 'classical music' or maybe some of the 'newer' acoustic
players now but thats it.
I was a Segovia fanatic for years, as a young tot but since
it was obvious to me I'd never be a great classical guitarist
I guess this when an electric guitar started sounding better
to me. Not really but once I was bit with the rock & blues
bug. like most young kids, it was all electrc from there..
I do listen to mostly jazz (& for years) & alot of classical
still but just for the pure joy of listening.. Jazz is my main
food of music now, bascially 24/7.. :)
> <<hmmm? since Pat only lives about 35 minutes from me maybe I'll
> just drop in un'announced and let him show me. Yea right Not! :)
> Thanx for the info Jack and please re: if their is fire problem with
> cotton? I think I may try this approach? tia.. thom_j.>>
>
> Interestingly enough, I called Pat a couple years ago. I had studied with
> him for a year and hadn't seen him since the late 70s. I asked him if he
> remembered me and he said, "Sure". I told him I was visiting Philly and
> wondered if he'd like to get together for coffee or a beer. He said he's
> love to and then added, "My fee now is $100/hour". I gulped and told him
I'd
> call him if it worked out that I had enough time. (I never called!) :-) I
> don't blame him but I couldn't justify paying someone to have a drink! LOL
Yea I see him alot if he inst running all over the world
or teching in Philly. Odd, I'd never think he would be
so $dollar$ minded but I guess since we catch him in
our local music store he doesnt have the nerve to ask
for $mula$ as many do ask him a set quick answered
questions.. One thing funny tho', he'll get himself in a
corner sometimes & cant leave.. hahaha :)
Chee s Thom_j.
> Jaz
>
>
>
Thom_j.
"Jack A. Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
news:8GBA8.14$oG2....@news2.news.adelphia.net...
Thom_j.
When he comes to our local music store sometimes he gets attacked..lol
the one who loves not hates
>someone live like Pat Metheny who goes back and forth between various solid
>and archtop guitars.
Pat has been known to put a towel or pair of socks in his guitar to kill the
feed back
teej
Thom_j.
taken out of the bags. Another gooid idea.. thanx teej from tej :)
"the one who loves not hates" <ih8u...@aol.comiloveHMR> wrote in message
news:20020503184631...@mb-mq.aol.com...
Jack A. Zucker
the
> feed back
Not according to what's on his website but it makes sense that at the
volumes he plays at there would be feedback ...