Solidbody guitar in Jazz...what makes it a "Jazz" solidbody?
Glen
the threads like crazy. I stumbled across one thread about who plays
a solidbody for jazz.
I started out playing rock and roll. Iron Maiden, Metallica, AC/DC,
etc. I'm 34 now and I have been playing off and on for about twenty
years. About two years ago I really started listening to jazz. My
life is pretty simple so aside from work I have a lot of free time. I
have spent a great deal of it listening to jazz. A couple years ago I
bought a guitar again after about a five year sabbatical. Only this
time I was intent on playing jazz. What a rude awakening that was.
Unlike Iron Maiden tunes, jazz is so much more sophisticated and
complex. But I have been paying my dues. Lots of playing and
listening. I don't expect to be anything great, I just play to enjoy
myself and possibly play out a few times a year.
I initially bought a new L-5 Wes Montgomery. I tell you, I just can't
get used to that giant-size body. The sound was amazing. The neck
played like a dream, but I just couldn't get that comfortable. So I
sold the Wes and went searching for a solid body. I know full well
that if you want the sound you need the true jazzbox. However, I was
shocked to hear the sound people like Pat Martino and Ed Bickert get
that sound. It wasn't a hollowbody sound, but it was a beautiful
sound and actually quite desireable.
My first attempt at a jazz solidbody was a 59' Reissue Les Paul. It
felt right, the neck was pretty good, but dammit the sound wasn't
there. I then bought the Clarus 1R and a Raezer's Edge Twin 8 in an
attempt to flatten the signal. Nope. Still just a little off. The
bass was too much. The signal too muddy. So instead of trial and
error with the pickups I sold the Les Paul.
I then did a massive amount of research on solidbodies in jazz. Ed
Bickert's Tele was a sweet sound, but ugh. Pat Martino has used a
variety of solidbodies throughout his career. Even something like the
Fly that sure bucked tradition when it came to looks. As well as the
Abe Rivera.
I decided the Abe Rivera was for me. For two main reasons. It is a
jazz solidbody, not a solidbody that can play jazz. Also, it would be
built exactly the way I want it. One pickup. My selection of woods.
My neck profile.
But at long last my question is this, what makes a solidbody good for
jazz? Is it just the electronics? Is it that they are usually
chambered? I don't know if the Scpeter is chambered...I believe it
is. Whatever the reason, it seems there are a very few solid body
guitars used for jazz. And the few that are used seemed to be used by
a good amount of people. I hear a lot of people using the Parker Fly
as well as the Bennys. Even the Guild ones.
I am using a beat up Epiphone Les Paul that has had some obvious
neck-joint work until the Abe is finished. And it actually sounds
better than the incredibly expensive 59 Reissue Gibson Les. Any other
opinions on some cheaper-made jazz-sounding solidbodies? Do they all
have to cost a minimum of 2500.00?
GAM
Joey Goldstein
Ed uses a .012 to .052 set of roundwounds but with an unwound G at about
.020 to .024. So does Lorne Lofsky.
A decent playing guitar, a humbucker in the neck position and heavy
strings. That's all you need.
Martino's strings are even heavier.
I use a set of D'Addario Chromes (flatwound) on my Tele. (.012 to .052)
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
<joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
Scott McLoughlin
an L4 and a Sweet 16, but they have been case-bound recently. My right
shoulder is having some serious problems, and I need to play with my right
arm close to my body.
I've been playing a Hamer Studio Custom (LP-like double cutaway with a
Duncan '59 in the neck) and a Tom Anderson Cobra (sort of a 24.75" scale
mahogany neck/body Tele with a maple cap) and an Ibanez AS180 (335 clone
with Duncan Super '58s).
Just a few very random and unscientific thoughts that I've had switching
back to solidbodies in the last month.
- Pickup. A lower output pickup seem friendlier for delivering smooth,
rounded highs. The '59 wins here. Goes well with my Polytone and especially
my '68 Princeton. Alot of rock pickups have higher output and accentuated
highs for delivering overdriven tones and cutting through effects. Not the
greatest formula for listening to the wood sing, though. I sold a Hamer axe
with P90's, and I found that the P90 sounds really wonderful for jazz
playing. Nice midrange with a little sparkle to the highs.
- Amp/pickup matchup is important. For who knows what reason, my Ibanez's
'58 sounds crappy with my Princeton. Maybe output is too high? Could be.
Does sound much better split coil. But the '58 pup sounds just dandy with
the Polytone. Go figure. All I'm pointing out here is that the "right
guitar" could sound crappy if matched with the wrong amp. My Boogie Mark III
sounds pretty damn good with all of my guitars - in a Mark III kind of way,
of course ;-)
- Strings. I put TI Benson 12's on the Hamer and it sounds pretty good. I
use 12's on my archtops, so they feel right. But these might be too heavy
for the Hamer - seems to actually sound a just a little lifeless. When I get
around to it, I'll try flat wound 11's instead. In any case, the heavier
flat strings sound right when chunking 3 note voiced chords, have a much
more rapid decay, etc.
My Cobra still has light round wounds on it. Sounds very nice, but "chunk ch
unk" 4 to the bar stuff sounds horrible played with a pick on this guitar.
The light strings are just jangling all over the place. I mostly practice
scales with the Cobra in another room in the house, but when I noodle around
with comping stuff on the Cobra, I'll use my fingers or my thumb and it
sounds much better.
- Ears. It took a couple of weeks to stop missing the L4 and Sweet 16 sound.
After a bit, the solidbodies now sound more natural to my ear. I had to get
used to the sound.
- Personally, I'm not a "it's just the pickups" guy. There are definitely
more nicely resonant axes than others, and in my experience it's an
instrument by instrument kind of thing - not a design driven thing.
All that said, there are any number of factory made solid body axes that
could sound good for traditional jazz playing. Some ideas to whet the GAS
appetite: Gibson LP Dlx with the mini-humbuckers; G&L Blues Boy Semi-hollow
tele with Seth Lover HB in the neck; other set-neck mahogany LP style
instruments like Hamer, Epiphone, Guild, PRS; routed mahogany Spruce cap
hollowbody axe like Hamer Newport Pro, PRS HB, Gibon ES446; Gibson or Epi or
Ibanez 335 style semi-hollow; Gibson 330 style full hollow thinline.
Endless economical possibilities really - but your Rivera should be slick.
--
Scott McLoughlin, Chairman
The Adrenaline Group, Inc.
"Glen" <live-at...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4b0114c1.0212...@posting.google.com...
JC
Find a sound that works for you. Whatever your style, there may be one
sound that appeals to you, or you may change your sound for different
styles....whatever....there are a lot of variables, and I think the answers
are to much all over the place to provide an easy answer for "good jazz
tones". Maybe it's the pickups. or the strings. or the pick. or the amp. or
wood used in the neck. or the bolt on neck. or the wood bridge. Find a
combination that works for you.
JC
"Glen" <live-at...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4b0114c1.0212...@posting.google.com...
Mike Lewis
bebop 13 strings played thru a Budda Twinmaster amp. I'm pretty happy
with the jazz tone I get out of the neck pickup.
Mike
Steve Modica
epiphone regent. From your description, I'd guess you're cranking up
the bass on your amp to get that softer tone that jazz players get.
Don't do that. Turn the mids up, the treble off and then add maybe just
a little bass til you get where you want to go. Also, I'm using
.12-.52's on mine.
Tuck Andrus said something pretty interesting about his tone. He uses
an eq to cut certain frequencies. He says that when doing this, you
need something like a 1/3octave eq minimum and you should always start
by cutting the things you want to get rid of (rather than by adding
things you want more of).
Steve
Elrod
solidbodies can be used with thicker strings, especially treble strings.
I have put wood crosspieces for bridges on solidbodies and it helps some,
and foam under the bridge emulates the "give" of an archtop sometimes.
I also use a much thicker plectrum for Jazz. Thin picks seem to add to that
"ping."
Bob R
live-at...@earthlink.net wrote on 12/15/02 12:50 AM:
> But at long last my question is this, what makes a solidbody good for
> jazz? Is it just the electronics? Is it that they are usually
> chambered?
I don't mean to be a smart-aleck here, but it's the person who plays it. Ed
Bickert plays a Telecaster; Jack Wilkins has been known to use a Tele from
time to time; Lorne Lofsky uses an Ibanez Roadstar or some such (I think
his first album was done with a Les Paul); Clint Strong has often used a Les
Paul. As far as I know, none of these guitars has exotic electronics or
extensive body modifications (Bickert's Tele has a humbucker; I believe
Lofsky uses EMG pickups, but so do a lot of rock guys). What we hear is the
result of a great player hearing a sound in his head, then deciding to
commit to a particular instrument, for whatever reason, and do what it takes
to get that sound.
-- Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
CD, "Watch This!", available at:
http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
EHHackney
feedback. Here's my $0.02.
>I initially bought a new L-5 Wes Montgomery.
>
I'm not that big a guy, and I find that any hollow body with larger than a 16"
bout (ES-175 size) is uncomfortable for me. I think that there are lots of
good hollow bodies in this size, though - even carved top ones. I've also
found that playing posture (chair, stool, right knee, left knee, left knee with
left foot on platform - like the classical players) can have a lot to do with
how comfortable a guitar feels.
>My first attempt at a jazz solidbody was a 59' Reissue Les Paul. It
>felt right, the neck was pretty good, but dammit the sound wasn't
>there.
As someone else here mentioned, string weight makes a big difference. I have
been using 11-52 with a wound 3rd for years. I just bought a Godin LGX-SA,
though, and may try a notch heavier strings on it.
Now I am trying to get a sound from the Godin that is close to my ES-175.
(Yeah, I know that's imnpossible, but want to try, o.k?) As someone else also
mentioned, you need to give yourself time to adjust to a new guitar - to get
used to it's sound and character, to figure out how to change the set-up of
your amp (and boxes if you use them) and to get your hands used to the guitar.
Over time you will, maybe subconsiously, change your touch to get closer to
YOUR sound out of the new guitar.
>It is a
>jazz solidbody, not a solidbody that can play jazz.
>
I guess I don't really know what a "jazz" solid body is - maybe lower output,
cleaner pickups. I'm sure that the wood makes a difference, too. My bias,
for what it is worth, is to automatically shun anything gear that says it's
jazz. There are thousands of opinions of what a "jazz" guitar sound is, and
every time I have gotten something that was branded as jazz gear I have been
disappointed. My opinion is that it is primarily a marketting technique.
> Do they all
>have to cost a minimum of 2500.00?
No, I think there are lots of good guitars that work for jazz under $2000.
Maybe way under $1000.
Good luck,
Hack
--//--
Bob R
ehha...@aol.com wrote on 12/15/02 11:29 AM:
> I guess I don't really know what a "jazz" solid body is - maybe lower output,
> cleaner pickups. I'm sure that the wood makes a difference, too. My bias,
> for what it is worth, is to automatically shun anything gear that says it's
> jazz. There are thousands of opinions of what a "jazz" guitar sound is, and
> every time I have gotten something that was branded as jazz gear I have been
> disappointed. My opinion is that it is primarily a marketting technique.
Is that Steinway in the corner a jazz piano? It is if Kenny Barron sits down
to play it. If Kenny gets up and Jerry Lee Lewis sits down, it's not a jazz
piano anymore. :-)
Leo Herranen
> Is that Steinway in the corner a jazz piano? It is if Kenny Barron sits
> down to play it. If Kenny gets up and Jerry Lee Lewis sits down, it's
> not a jazz piano anymore. :-)
Yes, just like with trumpets and violins. And basses: it's the player that
counts... well, maybe jazz doesn't sound "good" when played on a crappy
guitar, but, any way, it's the player that makes the sound "jazz".
(Hmm. Maybe I should say something original? ...naah...)
--
Leo Herranen|<her...@mbnet.fi>| 146114978 |
<http://juhani.exdecfinland.org/~herranen/>|
sgcim
fool around with the tone controls till you get what you think is a
good jazz sound.
A friend of mine told me to check out a Hondo strat copy several years
ago, so I took my Cube 60 down to the store and fell in love with the
sound and picked it up for $125. I even managed to play on a few jazz
recordings using it.
I'm glad you got rid of the Les Paul, they're terrible for jazz, but
great for almost any other type of music. I'm glad Lofsky finally
ditched it- he sounded like shit back in the 70s and 80s when he
played it. Now he sounds great.
You can't go wrong with an Abe Rivera. I almost bought one until I
saw a Borys for sale. His hollow body guitar is as good as any jazz
guitar.
Michael Ellenberger
SNIP
>
> I initially bought a new L-5 Wes Montgomery. I tell you, I just can't
> get used to that giant-size body. The sound was amazing. The neck
> played like a dream, but I just couldn't get that comfortable.
The big body takes a lot of time to adjust to and even after years of
playing the fat body the thin line guitars still feel more comfortable.
I know full well
> that if you want the sound you need the true jazzbox. However, I was
> shocked to hear the sound people like Pat Martino and Ed Bickert get
> that sound. It wasn't a hollowbody sound, but it was a beautiful
> sound and actually quite desireable.
What those guys play transcends the instrument. They'd sound great on
anything with strings. To me, the sound of a solid body with the treble
rolled off never sounds as rich as a hollow body but great music can be
produced by either instrument.
SNIP
>
> But at long last my question is this, what makes a solidbody good for
> jazz?
My opinion is the player because the the tone from the guitar is minimal
so the player's skill is what is left.
Mike
SNIP
--
Mike Ellenberger
Listen to some soundclips at
http://home.att.net/~grumpmeister/MikesJazzPage.html
Michael Ellenberger
Good point Bob. A seperate issue is the sound the musician prefers.
Kenny Barron might like the sound of another grand better than the
Steinway. Same for Jerry Lee. Guitars seem to be styled more to appeal
to a particular market. Wouldn't it be great if they did the same with
pianos?
Mike
Max Leggett
<grumpm...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Steinway. Same for Jerry Lee. Guitars seem to be styled more to appeal
>to a particular market. Wouldn't it be great if they did the same with
>pianos?
>
I want one of they pointy grand pianos with a death head decal on the
lid. Rawk ahn!!!!
Glen
are D'Addario Chromes in either 12 or 13. I recently bought some TI
Swing 12s, but I'll put those on the Abe when I get it. Having the
12's on the Les Paul Reissue was nice, but still not there. And it's
not simply a matter of rolling the treble off to get the sound. The
pickup on the Les Paul was a 57 Classic humbucker. The same exact
pickup that was in the Wes Montgomery. However it sounded much more
muddled on the Les paul. I probably could have modified, bought a
pickup more suited to the sound, etc. But the price I will pay for
the Abe is less than the price I paid for the Les Paul and that's
prior to customizing it.
I understand there are many variables that go into the sound of the
guitar that aren't controlled by the guitar. The pick (I use either a
Fender heavy or a smaller D'Addario heavy that my brother has hoarded
since they stopped making it). I have a relatively hard attack
compared to someone like Jim Hall who's pick seems to ooze over the
strings. Beyond that it all seems pretty straightforward.
For what it's worth, Abe had some very interesting opinions on what
made a solidbody a "jazz" solidbody. And it went further than the man
behind the pick. I can't question his wisdom since he's pretty much
been in the business since it became a business. I just wanted second
opinions since this group seems to have quite a few contributors who
seem to have a ton of knowledge on jazz guitars in general.
It appears to me that you can get a "jazz" sound out of any guitar
provided the electronics are on par with the sound you want and that
the guitar has a desireable feel to it. I don't remember if I
mentioned that I am using a hacked-up Epiphone Les Paul that I bought
used for 99.00 until my guitar is completed. And the sound is better
than the 59 Reissue's sound was. The neck is really sweet too. But
do to some botched neck-joint work the action is just a little high
for my taste. But still, I will probably keep this junker even after
I get the Abe.
I guess, like all things in music, to define a "jazz solidbody" is
rather fruitless as it's subject to opinion. One person's perfect
sound is another person's annoying sound. I like the sound of a nice
archtop. My brother's Buscurino is so beautiful. I mean it's simply
amazing. But I also like the sound of Martino, Bickert, Lofsky (even
in the 80's) just as much on their solidbodies. It's an entirely
different sound they get, but it's so warm and uniquely jazz in it's
own right.
Well, thanks for the input. I don't know a single soul near me who
likes jazz much less plays an instrument. Therefore any knowledge I
can get is through my own findings. I learned a ton just reading
through everyones opinions here. You guys are really great. Thanks.
GAM
Joey Goldstein
Glen wrote:
>
> I will say that the strings I have always used to get a sound I like
> are D'Addario Chromes in either 12 or 13. I recently bought some TI
> Swing 12s, but I'll put those on the Abe when I get it. Having the
> 12's on the Les Paul Reissue was nice, but still not there.
Well "there" is a place that is totally intangible and totally personal
to you. Lots of other guys would be quite happy playing jazz with the
sound of an LP with a 57 Classic and Chromes. You won't know whether you
have the right guitar for *you* until you're playing it. I'm not wild
about the way LP's feel when i'm sitting down and they're too heavy when
standing up but I think theyt sound great for jazz.
Have you heard the sound Clint Strong gets from his LP with .010 to .046 roundwounds?
Also, what amp are you using?
thom_j.
conjures up "very interesting opinions." Here and many
other venues.. cheers thom_j.
"Glen" wrote:
snip
> For what it's worth, Abe had some very interesting opinions on what
> made a solidbody a "jazz" solidbody. And it went further than the man
> behind the pick. I can't question his wisdom since he's pretty much
> been in the business since it became a business. I just wanted second
> opinions since this group seems to have quite a few contributors who
> seem to have a ton of knowledge on jazz guitars in general.
snip again
> GAM
Glen
> Well "there" is a place that is totally intangible and totally personal
> to you. Lots of other guys would be quite happy playing jazz with the
> sound of an LP with a 57 Classic and Chromes. You won't know whether you
> have the right guitar for *you* until you're playing it. I'm not wild
> about the way LP's feel when i'm sitting down and they're too heavy when
> standing up but I think theyt sound great for jazz.
>
> Have you heard the sound Clint Strong gets from his LP with .010 to .046 roundwounds?
>
> Also, what amp are you using?
True. The more I thought about it the more I realized how impossible
it would be for a group of people to come to a conclusion on something
that is in itself inherently vague. Don't get me wrong, the Les Paul
had a great sound. But, as you pointed out, it wasn't what I
personally was looking for. One of the main reasons I didn't
customize it by changing the pickup is that it was an expensive
guitar. I wasn't in love with the feel of the neck (a baseball bat).
I knew I could sell it for more than I would need to buy something
else.
When at Abe's house I picked up a couple Scepters that he had been
building at the moment. Although the necks have been built to someone
else's specs, I really felt comfotable with those guitars. Maybe it's
the body. Maybe the neck. All I knew was that I really enjoyed
playing them. And I'll admit I am very picky about what I like and
don't like. I'm not sure I have the knowledge to specify what it is I
like and dislike about any particular guitar, but when I play one I
like I can tell immediately.
For an amp I started with an old Mesa Studio .22. It's about 20 years
old, but it's in pristene condition. I recently spent a more money
than I should have and bought a Clarus 1R and a Raezer's Edge Twin 8.
And wow...the difference in sound between those two amps is like night
and day. I knew it would be different, but I had no idea at all the
sound would change so drastically. That's another post altogether.
As much as I love that Mesa it will end up on eBay in a few weeks.
Someone will get a mint 20 yr. old Mesa Studio .22.
Thanks again.
Pat Smith
website and there seems to be little info on them. They look really
heavy. Are they expensive?
Mike O'Malley
guitar is the overtone series you're putting out. A flat top guitar
has a very rich set of jangly overtones everytime you strike a chord.
It's great for simple harmonies--majors, minors, and sevens
especially. But as you play more complex chords (to my ears) the
harmony gets muddled and unclear. Same with an overdriven guitar. if
you overdrive an electric, you get a rich series of overtones and
harmonics that sounds great even if you just play three note root and
fifth voicings. But if you play any complicated harmony when the
guitar's overdriven, it sounds lousy. There's too many overtones, and
the clarity of the harmony gets lost
The point of jazz guitar, or one of the points, is complex harmony,
and to get that across you need a tone that's focused and limited in
harmonic content. Too many overtones and the harmony gets lost.
Archtops produce a very midrangey, short sustaining, focused tone that
lets the fundamental of each note in your chord ring out distinctly.
There's less harmonic content in each note, so the relationships of
the notes are clearer. To my ears a telecaster is a great solid body
jazz guitar. The chrome covered neck pickup gives you exactly what you
need--limited harmonic content, but without the mud. I'd go back to
the tele. I have a mahogany body and neck tele I made myself, and it
gets a great p-90s sound if you use the neck pickup and up the
midrange on the amp
Glen
> I'd love to hear more about Abe Rivera's guitars. I've never seen a
> website and there seems to be little info on them. They look really
> heavy. Are they expensive?
I can say that Abe seems to enjoy keeping a very low profile. He
doesn't advertise. Probably because he has enough work to keep him
busy already. A few name-brand guitar manufacturers have gone to Abe
to buy his designs. He won't do it. He says he is a luthier for the
musician and that's it. He's not out to get rich at all. He wants
his reputation to be that of guitar builder for musicians. He has a
lot of pride in his work and the people that play his guitars (most
notably Kevin Eubanks and Pat Martino) say his guitars are in a league
of their own. Abe's mentioned in Pat's liner notes more than once.
Because Abe doesn't advertise you won't see a website for his guitars.
Nor will you see ads in any magazines. There are articles about his
work sprinkled sporadically through some magazines. Kevin Eubank's
uses Abe's guitars exclusively. If you see Kevin on the Tonight Show
and he has a guitar...it's Abes. If you go to Kevin's site he tells a
little about his guitars and has some great pics of quite a few of
them.
There are two other good places to find out about his work.
www.aberivera.com is a fan run site. I am sure Abe wishes it didn't
exist. They have a lot of pictures there as well as some information.
Also, recently, jimphelps.com sold a Scepter. You can go to his site
and see some very nice pictures as well as a nice description of his
work. The guitar is of course sold, but he keeps the pictures up
becuase the guitar is so pretty.
Are his guitars heavy? I can't speak for his archtop or
semi-hollowbody models as I've never played a completed one, but his
Scepters weigh a ton. They will make a Les Paul feel light! But you
need to remember everything is handmade with nice woods. The
pickguard is wood...the pickup ring(s) are wood, the knobs are wood.
As far as price goes, it can be anything. Each guitar is so unique
that price varies with materials. However, remember that in the
aftermarket each guitar was built to one persons specs. So no two are
set up alike. Last time I saw him, wich was quite a while ago, he was
building some very far-out guitars. Really wierd neck profiles on
archtops, etc. But then, that's what luthiers do right?
And Mike O'Mally...
If there was an answer I was looking for, that was it. You nailed it.
That definition was a perfect one. I read that post about four
times. Mkes plenty sense to me!
Pat Smith
thom_j.
"Creative Force Covers Vol 1 & 2"... Is it? tia.. thom_j.
"Glen" <live-at...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4b0114c1.02121...@posting.google.com...
Glen
> Glen, the "Scepter" looks like Pat Matino's guitar on his
> "Creative Force Covers Vol 1 & 2"... Is it? tia.. thom_j.
Yes, that's his Scepter. Also, if you watch the end of Creative Force
1 he talks briefly about it. I guess Abe presented it to him as a
gift some time ago. Abe speaks very highly of Pat, not just as a
musician but as a really great person in general. There is a picture
of Pat playing his Scepter on the cover of Pat's album, "The Return."
I know he used it almost exclusively for many years. And you still
see him with it often today. If you go to Pat's website
www.patmartino.com you can see pictures of him playing it from all
different time periods.
I saw Pat in October at the Regattabar in Boston, MA and he was using
one of his Gibson "Pat Martino" models. Those guitars really have a
fanatstic sound. I saw one once at a store, but the store was so busy
that i didn;t bother asking an employee to get it down for me. From
what I undertsand they are semi-hollow bodied guitars.
Yep, guess what? I put Pat up there among my favorite jazz musicians.
Probably my favorite jazz guitarist. I also love Ed Bickert too.
That Bickert album with Bill Mays on piano is Heaven on earth to
listen to if you like that smooth style. And of course Jimmy Bruno
seems to have raised the bar in recent years. I remember the first
time I listened to, "Live at Birdland" with an ear towards what he was
doing on the guitar...and I was flabbergasted. So fast yet so melodic
and clean. I almost drove to PA from MA just to see him, but the one
chance I had to go see him with my brother Jimmy had been playing
somewhere other than Chris' Jazz cafe. Ugh! Maybe someday.
thom_j.
I saw the video and he says a good friend from L.I. (I beleive?) is
the luthier/builder. I even just saw "Kevin Eubanks" with one on a
Jay Leno promo tonight. This is one busy luthier :^)
I think somone mentioned within this thread, and I never realized
this until it was brought up on Rmmgj? I guess this Luthier has a
good following & didnt he escape from Cuba or some place like
that? Or maybe its a rumor I heard? cheers thom_j.
"Glen" <live-at...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:4b0114c1.02121...@posting.google.com...
Joe Finn
> What those guys play transcends the instrument. They'd sound great on
> anything with strings. To me, the sound of a solid body with the treble
> rolled off never sounds as rich as a hollow body but great music can be
> produced by either instrument.
>
Wes probably would have sounded great on a cigar box strung up with rubber
bands! ........joe
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jimb...@cox.net
incredible. Whoever thinks that jazz cannot be played on a Les Paul has not
heard Clint Strong's video. Incredible, beautiful stuff. Jim
Bob R
jimb...@cox.net wrote on 12/20/02 11:25 AM:
> IMHO the sound that Clint Strong gets out of a Les Paul is absolutely
> incredible. Whoever thinks that jazz cannot be played on a Les Paul has not
> heard Clint Strong's video. Incredible, beautiful stuff. Jim
>
>
Sadly, it seems that a lot of people can't listen to music without first
running it past a checklist of all their preconceptions.
Bob Agnew
<jimb...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:gwHM9.14884$6k.9...@news1.west.cox.net...
Jurupari
with PAF's. I lucked into both in '69 - the custom was unplayed! They both had
fantastic sound for jazz. Also, they would have probably stopped a bullet,
another important consideration in some venues.
I can't think of a variety of guitar that I haven't heard somebody play jazz
on, really.
Clif
Sideways Jaye
stopped a bullet,
> another important consideration in some venues.
>
That would be the Wing Ding club in Ocean View on Navy pay night,
right, Clif?
(Clif and I both own t-shirts that say "I played the Wing Ding club
and lived to tell about it.)
I have a Fender/Warmoth tele with a Texas Special neck pickup that
sounds deliciously smoky and P90-ish for jazz.
Jurupari
Clif
Glen
> in article gwHM9.14884$6k.9...@news1.west.cox.net, jimb...@cox.net at
> jimb...@cox.net wrote on 12/20/02 11:25 AM:
>
> > IMHO the sound that Clint Strong gets out of a Les Paul is absolutely
> > incredible. Whoever thinks that jazz cannot be played on a Les Paul has not
> > heard Clint Strong's video. Incredible, beautiful stuff. Jim
> >
> >
> Sadly, it seems that a lot of people can't listen to music without first
> running it past a checklist of all their preconceptions.
>
> -- Bob Russell
Bob,
My only checklist is that it sounds good to me and I enjoy playing the
particular instrument. For me, the Les Paul's neck was too large.
Due to the fact that it was a '59 Reissue. Also, I personally found
the sound highly unbalanced and therefore undesireable. The sound was
too muddy and the chords would overlap their notes. It's not how it's
being played as I can play the same chord on my brother's Buscurino
and every note rings clean and on a whole the sound is more rich and
flat. I had mentioned that I was considering going with a more flat
pickup, but that I could sell the guitar for a profit and find a
guitar more suited to my tastes. None of this was a preconception,
but rather an informed opinion.
Ed Bickert gets a killer sound from his "highly customized" Fender
Tele. Much like an archtop in my opinion. That pretty much bucks any
and all preconceptions about solidbodies and the warm tone of a
typical jazz sound.
Also, I don't listen to Clint Strong. I don't know what kind of sound
he gets, I'm sure it's amazing. Lorne Lofsky also used a Les Paul for
a while and his sound was amazing too. That was the whole reason I
purchased a Les Paul in the first place. But none of this means
anything if I, or anyone else, personally does not like the sound
their getting from it. Obviously this doesn't mean anyone is wrong,
just that there are differing opinions. I personally dislike the
sound of Mike Stern. Howevere he continues to have wild success in
spite of a non-traditional sound. Same could be said for Allan
Holdsworth. Not my flavor, but he's got his fans.
For me, I like the sound of the archtop. I wanted an archtop-ish
sound from a solidbody. I enjoy the sustain of a solidbody as applied
to jazz. Bickert, Lofsky, and Martino all seem to accomplish this. I
admit it was wrong to assume everyone is seeking this tone. In fact
it was insane to assume that. A better question would then be, "What
solidbody guitar sounds most like an archtop? Or what modifications,
electrical or otherwise, would it take to make a solidbody more
closely resemble an archtop?"
I'll have to hunt down a Clint Strong song or two and bend an ear.
Cheers!
Bob R
live-at...@earthlink.net wrote on 12/21/02 12:26 PM:
>> jimb...@cox.net wrote on 12/20/02 11:25 AM:
>>
>>> IMHO the sound that Clint Strong gets out of a Les Paul is absolutely
>>> incredible. Whoever thinks that jazz cannot be played on a Les Paul has not
>>> heard Clint Strong's video. Incredible, beautiful stuff. Jim
>>>
>>>
>> Sadly, it seems that a lot of people can't listen to music without first
>> running it past a checklist of all their preconceptions.
>>
>> -- Bob Russell
>
>
> Bob,
>
> My only checklist is that it sounds good to me and I enjoy playing the
> particular instrument. For me, the Les Paul's neck was too large.
> Due to the fact that it was a '59 Reissue. Also, I personally found
> the sound highly unbalanced and therefore undesireable. The sound was
> too muddy and the chords would overlap their notes. It's not how it's
> being played as I can play the same chord on my brother's Buscurino
> and every note rings clean and on a whole the sound is more rich and
> flat. I had mentioned that I was considering going with a more flat
> pickup, but that I could sell the guitar for a profit and find a
> guitar more suited to my tastes. None of this was a preconception,
> but rather an informed opinion.
Hey man, I wasn't talking about you personally, but I can see how you got
that impression. Sorry to be misleading. I have this bad habit of trying to
speak to several different threads in one post...
> Ed Bickert gets a killer sound from his "highly customized" Fender
> Tele. Much like an archtop in my opinion. That pretty much bucks any
> and all preconceptions about solidbodies and the warm tone of a
> typical jazz sound.
>
> Also, I don't listen to Clint Strong. I don't know what kind of sound
> he gets, I'm sure it's amazing. Lorne Lofsky also used a Les Paul for
> a while and his sound was amazing too. That was the whole reason I
> purchased a Les Paul in the first place. But none of this means
> anything if I, or anyone else, personally does not like the sound
> their getting from it. Obviously this doesn't mean anyone is wrong,
> just that there are differing opinions. I personally dislike the
> sound of Mike Stern.
Me too.
> Howevere he continues to have wild success in spite of a non-traditional
sound. Same could be said for Allan Holdsworth. Not my flavor, but he's
got his fans.
>
> For me, I like the sound of the archtop. I wanted an archtop-ish
> sound from a solidbody. I enjoy the sustain of a solidbody as applied
> to jazz. Bickert, Lofsky, and Martino all seem to accomplish this. I
> admit it was wrong to assume everyone is seeking this tone. In fact
> it was insane to assume that.
Well, "insane" might be a little strong... :-)
> A better question would then be, "What solidbody guitar sounds most like an
archtop? Or what modifications, electrical or otherwise, would it take to
make a solidbody more closely resemble an archtop?"
Those might be better questions. I'm not sure what the answers are, though.
I've heard a lot different approaches taken and they all seem to work for
the people who employ them. Lofksy's Ibanez hockey-stick and EMGs wouldn't
work for me, but they sure work great for him. Bickert's old Tele with a
humbucker works for him. I think you just have to sort out different things
over time to find out what works for you. But you knew that already. :-)
Stan Gosnell
news:a6bf1bf8.02122...@posting.google.com:
> juru...@aol.com (Jurupari) wrote . Also, they would have probably
> stopped a bullet,
>> another important consideration in some venues.
>>
>
>
> That would be the Wing Ding club in Ocean View on Navy pay night,
> right, Clif?
Or Nell's Club in Hollis, OK on any Saturday night.
--
Regards,
Stan
Jurupari
Naw, I only play them big cities like Grove and Quapaw. Duck!!!
Now there's a thread - The Roughest Night Clubs in America, or The Toilet Zone.
Clif
thom_j.
"Glen" wrote:
snip
> A better question would then be, "What
> solidbody guitar sounds most like an archtop? Or what modifications,
> electrical or otherwise, would it take to make a solidbody more
> closely resemble an archtop?"
> Cheers!
Glen, dont you feel this is just as subjective as your original desired
query
on "Solidbody guitar in Jazz...what makes it a "Jazz" solidbody?"? You'll
still have so many variables, personal likes/dislikes etc. etc. etc.
Everyone
will prefer their own pups, strings, woods and so on.. just a thought..
cheers thom_j.
Max Leggett
For the dreariest gig, I nominate The Uxbridge International Plowing
Competition and Farm Machinery Display. I kid you not. It was a long
time ago, but yet I shudder.
jimb...@cox.net
Get Clint Strong's video 'Mastering Jazz Licks' if you want to hear
incredible bebop guitar played on a Les Paul Custom. Of course Clint also
told me that he took his first Howard Roberts seminar when he was like 12
years old if memory serves me correct. Incredible guitarist. Jim
Jurupari
him!
>For the dreariest gig, I nominate The Uxbridge International Plowing
>Competition and Farm Machinery Display. I kid you not. It was a long
>time ago, but yet I shudder.
I can almost hear the agent now in that apres gig phone call.....
'Max, I distinctly SAID Plowboy Club, you just heard me wrong...the money?
Well, you must have heard me wrong about that, too. Gotta run - we'll do
lunch!' click
Old MacDonald? Again???
thom_j.
"sgcim" <sg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:7318994a.02122...@posting.google.com...
> moma...@gmu.edu (Mike O'Malley) wrote in message
news:<87d03efb.02121...@posting.google.com>...
> altered chords played with distortion.
> The neck pickup and amp midrange has worked for me for the last 17
> years with solid bodies with names that bring puke to the average jazz
> guitarist. Names like Hondo, D'Agostino, and for the last few years,
> Fender Squire.
> Last nite I did a heavy jazz gig in Manhattan with just a bass
> player, and I decided to take the subway because the gig was right
> near Rockefeller Center and the parking and traffic around the
> holidays is a nightmare.
> So rather than taking my Borys, which I thought would be the only
> guitar that I had that would work in a duo situation, I took the
> Squire so I wouldn't have to worry about taking the subway with an
> expensive guitar late at night.
> As it turned out, the Squire worked out great for the gig, and
> everything sounded fine.
To me, this seems to be very telling & interesting as it comes around
almost "full circle" (if you will) to the basic concept of this thread. If
you can gig with a Fender Squire' or a Hondo, it sure makes us think
about many aspects of what & where "the jazz guitar" sound is really
coming from...eh? Really interesting.. cheers thom_j.
Ken Rose
to throw into the mix (sorry if someone mentioned this already and I missed
it).
When we talk about a "jazz" tone, or a "jazz" guitar, I think it might be
useful to distinguish between playing single lines and comping. For single
lines, solidbody guitars can get a fine sound. It has been noted here more
than once that before he bought Howard Roberts' ES-175, Jim Hall played a
Les Paul and sounded great.
Comping is different, though. For the more "modern" comping style that
relies on fingerstyle playing or pick-and-fingers (like, say, Mick
Goodrick), a solidbody can work fine, I'd say maybe even better than an
archtop. But for the more traditional Freddie Green type of comping with a
pick, I don't think solidbody guitars work too well. At least not to my
ears. For that type of comping, a full hollow body seems to be in order
(not even semi-hollow).
My two cents. . . .
Ken Rose
Joey Goldstein
I agree. Percussive picked (strummed with the pick) comping always seems
to leave something to be desired on a solidbody.
> My two cents. . . .
>
> Ken Rose
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
<joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
Bob R
nos...@nowhere.net wrote on 12/22/02 11:17 AM:
>> Comping is different, though. For the more "modern" comping style that
>> relies on fingerstyle playing or pick-and-fingers (like, say, Mick
>> Goodrick), a solidbody can work fine, I'd say maybe even better than an
>> archtop. But for the more traditional Freddie Green type of comping with a
>> pick, I don't think solidbody guitars work too well. At least not to my
>> ears. For that type of comping, a full hollow body seems to be in order
>> (not even semi-hollow).
>
> I agree. Percussive picked (strummed with the pick) comping always seems
> to leave something to be desired on a solidbody.
I would agree with this too. I wonder why it works out that way? Maybe the
hollow body has more "give" and takes the edge off the strum?
Jurupari
>ears. For that type of comping, a full hollow body seems to be in order
>(not even semi-hollow).
>
If you really wanted the big band guitar sound on a solid body, heavy strings
and a higher action might help - also a brighter (slightly) tone with a little
midrange pulled out on the amp might add to the illusion. If the pickups sound
too 'fat' you can just lower them a little and/or rock them so that one coil is
closer than the other.
Of course, if the next number is 'Purple Haze" that might present a problem...
Hey, Ken, just heard some of your stuff on Dick's site recently. Thoroughly
enjoyable! thanks for a good listen.
Clif
Sideways Jaye
> Jaye, did you read that post about Benny Beckham? That was in Chahlstun.
>
> Clif
Clif -
miniscule world syndrome again....I took about 4 lessons from Benny in
the short time between Bob Roetker moving from Denbigh to Columbia, MD
and me moving (very briefly) back to Ct.
Was that a recent Benny sighting in SC?
Benny was a super nice guy. I remember he really liked classical
stuff as well as jazz, and his lasting words of advice to me were
"don't let the seams show."
And, of course, you had to be a) a very good player and b) a masochist
to play with Jo Jones.
Hmmmm....by the way, St. Peter, there's a guitar player on rmmgj, who,
when he gets up there someday, would be the perfect person to play
with Jo....ahhh..cosmic justice.
Jurupari
>Was that a recent Benny sighting in SC?
>
I don't think so. I knew Benny when he was about 18 and I think I was 26 - way
long time ago. He was into Howard Roberts back then and classical was yet to
come, but he was already comin' on. I picked up some ideas jamming with him
that I still use. Hadn't heard a thing about him until a couple of months ago.
He was a really nice guy, and me & the boyz in the band spent a lot of time
hangin with him. There was one club that didn't stop live music until 5 or 6
am and we'd usually go over there and help the sun come up.
The thread related to shootings in clubs. Benny played in a really rough
joint.
Clif
jimb...@cox.net
alive and playing? Jim
thom_j.
"Bob R" <w...@earp.com> wrote in message news:BA2B5320.127D8%w...@earp.com...
> in article 3E05E588...@nowhere.net, Joey Goldstein at
> nos...@nowhere.net wrote on 12/22/02 11:17 AM:
>
> >> Comping is different, though. For the more "modern" comping style that
> >> relies on fingerstyle playing or pick-and-fingers (like, say, Mick
> >> Goodrick), a solidbody can work fine, I'd say maybe even better than an
> >> archtop. But for the more traditional Freddie Green type of comping
with a
> >> pick, I don't think solidbody guitars work too well. At least not to
my
> >> ears. For that type of comping, a full hollow body seems to be in
order
> >> (not even semi-hollow).
> >
> > I agree. Percussive picked (strummed with the pick) comping always seems
> > to leave something to be desired on a solidbody.
>
> I would agree with this too. I wonder why it works out that way? Maybe the
> hollow body has more "give" and takes the edge off the strum?
fwiw,
I dont know if you'd consider this cheating or not? :^), but for years
if I want to get that finger sound via a solidbody by plectrum I use a
"felt pic" I have them cut on different angles, and curves for altering
the sounds.. Works great for me.. cheers tee'jay
Stan Gosnell
news:3E05E588...@nowhere.net:
> I agree. Percussive picked (strummed with the pick) comping always
> seems to leave something to be desired on a solidbody.
I think it sounds better if you have a less powerful pickup and/or set the
pickup further from the strings. That give a more acoustic tone. A hot
humbucker set really close to the strings (and you can put them much closer
than a Strat pickup without getting Stratitis) doesn't sound as good to me.
It works for shredding, but IME I get a much cleaner, more acoustic tone
with weak pickups set back from the strings, & the amp turned up a hair
higher. YMMV.
--
Regards,
Stan
Ken Rose
X-150, but I recently got a 1966 Gibson ES-125TC, which is thin, but still
fully hollow, and sounds great. And it's a lot more comfortable! I'll be
getting a chambered solidbody any day now from a luthier in Spain named
Josep Melo. I'll try your settings on the amp and see if it gets a good
sound for comping with a pick.
Ken Rose
"Jurupari" <juru...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021222113604...@mb-fn.aol.com...
Scott McLoughlin
news:3E05E588...@nowhere.net...
>
>
> I agree. Percussive picked (strummed with the pick) comping always seems
> to leave something to be desired on a solidbody.
FWIW, on a solidbody, I've found that using my thumb to strum 3 note
voicings on the low strings sounds much better than using a pick. Certainly
you don't get that nice acoustic snap, but I can get a pretty nice and
usable tone with my thumb when doing the Freddie Green thing on a solidbody
or thinline. It's funny, now that I've finally got a couple hollowbodies,
I'm still used to the thumb sound. Go figure.
--
Scott McLoughlin, Chairman
The Adrenaline Group, Inc.
XQJ37
What do you not like?
The chorus, the delay, or the distortion?
Don't you think that in the context of his
music, which is mostly not straight ahead stuff,
that a totally dry sound would get boring?
Listen to his first album, Upside Downside,
it is probably his most fusion like album
and his sound is very appropriate for that one
in my opinion. On his Standards album, he doesn't
use any distortion, but without the delay and chorus
I think it would have sounded thin.
Joey Goldstein
Jerry: It's Joe DaVolla Mom. He just doesn't like me.
Jerry's Mom: How could anybody not like you?