New AI combo amps
Joey Goldstein
Anybody know if they are coming out with a combo designed for guitar
rather than for bass?
--
Joey Goldstein
Guitarist/Jazz Recording Artist/Teacher
Home Page: http://www.joeygoldstein.com
Email: <joegold AT sympatico DOT ca>
smoy
411AA series, which has a 10" downfiring woofer, 5 " mid and a tweeter.
According to AI The new 1R and 2 R will not be ready until Sept.
Skip
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3D5A6D3E...@nowhere.net...
Joey Goldstein
smoy wrote:
>
> Go to their website www.acousticimage.com you can see a description on the
> 411AA series, which has a 10" downfiring woofer, 5 " mid and a tweeter.
> According to AI The new 1R and 2 R will not be ready until Sept.
> Skip
Do you have the url? I can't find that.
Joey Goldstein
Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> smoy wrote:
> >
> > Go to their website www.acousticimage.com you can see a description on the
> > 411AA series, which has a 10" downfiring woofer, 5 " mid and a tweeter.
> > According to AI The new 1R and 2 R will not be ready until Sept.
> > Skip
>
> Do you have the url? I can't find that.
OK. I found it,
http://www.acousticimg.com/codar-1.html
but that's a bass amp isn't it? The Coda has two channels and the Contra
has 1 channel but they both have the same cabinet and they're both made
for bass. Right?
Kevin Van Sant
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message <3D5AABA3...@nowhere.net>
:
>OK. I found it,
>http://www.acousticimg.com/codar-1.html
>but that's a bass amp isn't it? The Coda has two channels and the Contra
>has 1 channel but they both have the same cabinet and they're both made
>for bass. Right?
Joey, did you not see my post earlier? Here it is again:
-----------------------------------------------
On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 10:46:29 -0400, Joey Goldstein
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message <3D5A6D3E...@nowhere.net>
:
>
>Anybody know if they are coming out with a combo designed for guitar
>rather than for bass?
Joey, both of their combos, the Coda and the Contra are intended for
"acoustic instrument amplification". They are basically the same
electronics except one is two channel. You may have seen that they
are undergoing a revamp in their product line. The new design is like
this:
Their whole line uses the exact same speaker box which consists of the
down firing 10", a 5" mid range (front facing), and a 1" tweeter which
has an on/off switch. The electronics for all amps are either Clarus1
(1 channel), Clarus 1R (1 channel w/ reverb), Clarus 2 (2 channel), or
Clarus 2R (2 channel w/ reverb)
So the Contra is their combo with Clarus 1 or 1R electronics and the
Coda is their combo with the Clarus 2 or 2R electronics.
Pretty simple.
For my taste I still maintain that there is no better sounding amp in
existence for solo guitar. I even prefer Rick's speaker design to the
Clarus/RE set up FOR SOLO GUITAR. It is such a huge and high-fi sound
that can't be matched with a conventional speaker set up. But also to
my taste I don't find that it works for me in most settings where I am
sharing sonic space with bass and/or drums. Other people obviously
feel otherwise. Although there is one room where I only play quartet
gigs with piano/bass/drums that for whatever reason the AI works out
better than my Evans. But in virtually all other group settings I use
the Evans.
But man, for solo guitar or a duo with vocals or horn.....!
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.onestopjazz.com/kvansant
to buy my CDs, listen to sound clips, and get more info.
Alternate site for recent soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
Joey Goldstein
like it for electric guitar. I had my Tele.
Do you use it with an archtop electric or just with a true acoustic
guitar with piezo type pickup or mic?
So the new AI amps will really be similar in target usage as the Contra
then? They are not making a new combo specifically designed for guitar
with magnetic pickups?
--
Kevin Van Sant
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message <3D5ACD2C...@nowhere.net>
:
>Hmm. I briefly tried Duncan Hopkins' Contra one day and really didn't
>like it for electric guitar. I had my Tele.
>
>Do you use it with an archtop electric or just with a true acoustic
>guitar with piezo type pickup or mic?
>
>So the new AI amps will really be similar in target usage as the Contra
>then? They are not making a new combo specifically designed for guitar
>with magnetic pickups?
I think Rick prefers to think of his amps as "acoustic instrument"
amps. I don't have a guitar with a piezo, my L5 has one routed PAF,
and my 175 has 2. So they are electric guitars, but they each have
distinct acoustic properties. His whole thing is making it sound just
like your instrument, only louder. I'm not surprised your Tele
didn't sound all that impressive. A solid body guitar doesn't have a
whole lot of tone on its own to make louder.
You don't need a hand carved archtop to get a great sound from an AI
amp, any good sounding guitar should be cool. But if you are playing
a guitar, such as just about any solid body, that depends on an amp to
help *create* the tone, I think there are better choices out there
that are designed more for that purpose.
Joey Goldstein
Kevin Van Sant wrote:
>
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2002 17:35:41 -0400, Joey Goldstein
> <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message <3D5ACD2C...@nowhere.net>
> :
>
> >Hmm. I briefly tried Duncan Hopkins' Contra one day and really didn't
> >like it for electric guitar. I had my Tele.
> >
> >Do you use it with an archtop electric or just with a true acoustic
> >guitar with piezo type pickup or mic?
> >
> >So the new AI amps will really be similar in target usage as the Contra
> >then? They are not making a new combo specifically designed for guitar
> >with magnetic pickups?
>
> I think Rick prefers to think of his amps as "acoustic instrument"
> amps. I don't have a guitar with a piezo, my L5 has one routed PAF,
> and my 175 has 2. So they are electric guitars, but they each have
> distinct acoustic properties. His whole thing is making it sound just
> like your instrument, only louder. I'm not surprised your Tele
> didn't sound all that impressive. A solid body guitar doesn't have a
> whole lot of tone on its own to make louder.
Well obviously I disagree or I wouldn't be playing a solid body guitar.
My Tele sounds best when I plug it into a full range system with a
speaker emulator (such as the Hughes & Kettner Red Box) in line. The
speaker emulator merely mimics the EQ of a typical guitar speaker so it
rolls off the high end above 5khz as well as the extreme low end. If I
could get that sound from a combo amp at loud-jazz stage volumes I'd be
be pretty happy. Compared to that benchmark the Contra was colouring my
sound and colouring it unfavorably. My Polytone MBII sounds fine at low
volumes but becomes boomy on the bottom end at stage volumes. Plus the
PT sound is more than a little bit sterile and cold.
So far, for jazz, I like the sound of a Clarus through a RET8 but this
combination seemed artificially boosted on the extreme bottom end. I'd
like to hear the Clarus through the T8 Tower though. I have a feeling
that the low end will be much more tame with this cabinet design.
On the other hand, if AI were themselves making a combo that sounded
close to what a Clarus/RE rig sounds like I'd much rather have a combo.
But it doesn't seem like they do.
> You don't need a hand carved archtop to get a great sound from an AI
> amp, any good sounding guitar should be cool. But if you are playing
> a guitar, such as just about any solid body, that depends on an amp to
> help *create* the tone, I think there are better choices out there
> that are designed more for that purpose.
>
> _________________________________________
> Kevin Van Sant
> jazz guitar
>
> http://www.onestopjazz.com/kvansant
> to buy my CDs, listen to sound clips, and get more info.
>
> Alternate site for recent soundclips
> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
--
David C. Stephens
>
> My Tele sounds best when I plug it into a full range system with a
> speaker emulator (such as the Hughes & Kettner Red Box) in line. The
> speaker emulator merely mimics the EQ of a typical guitar speaker so it
> rolls off the high end above 5khz as well as the extreme low end. If I
> could get that sound from a combo amp at loud-jazz stage volumes I'd be
> be pretty happy. Compared to that benchmark the Contra was colouring my
> sound and colouring it unfavorably. My Polytone MBII sounds fine at low
> volumes but becomes boomy on the bottom end at stage volumes. Plus the
> PT sound is more than a little bit sterile and cold.
>
> So far, for jazz, I like the sound of a Clarus through a RET8 but this
> combination seemed artificially boosted on the extreme bottom end. I'd
> like to hear the Clarus through the T8 Tower though. I have a feeling
> that the low end will be much more tame with this cabinet design.
The RE-T8 has, by far, the most bass boost of the RE line, so you'll
probably prefer one of the others. The T8-T actually has a little "edge" and
very little emphasis in the bass or lower mids. Compared to your Poly, the
NY-8 might be a choice that you'd really like. Amp and speaker combine for a
23 lb package that's got a great, big sound. If you're getting enough
headroom out of your MBII, then the Clarus/NY-8, or T8-T will give you more
than enough headroom. Given your favorable impression of Poly, you might
like a MiniBrain with Clarus. Either the Clarus or MiniBrain will work with
effects or EQ in front of them.
Dave
Joey Goldstein
Actually the Poly is not giving me enough headroom and it is boomy on
the bottom end at loud volumes. If and when I buy a Clarus I'll be
running it through a 4ohm load. I'm toying around a bit with changing
the speaker in the Poly though. As others have said the speaker and cab
are the real important factors in the equation here. I would never run a
Poly head into an 8ohm cab. Not for me.
Kevin Van Sant
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message <3D5ACD2C...@nowhere.net>
:
>Hmm. I briefly tried Duncan Hopkins' Contra one day and really didn't
>like it for electric guitar. I had my Tele.
>
>Do you use it with an archtop electric or just with a true acoustic
>guitar with piezo type pickup or mic?
>
>So the new AI amps will really be similar in target usage as the Contra
>then? They are not making a new combo specifically designed for guitar
>with magnetic pickups?
I think Rick prefers to think of his amps as "acoustic instrument"
amps. I don't have a guitar with a piezo, my L5 has one routed PAF,
and my 175 has 2. So they are electric guitars, but they each have
distinct acoustic properties. His whole thing is making it sound just
like your instrument, only louder. I'm not surprised your Tele
didn't sound all that impressive. A solid body guitar doesn't have a
whole lot of tone on its own to make louder.
You don't need a hand carved archtop to get a great sound from an AI
amp, any good sounding guitar should be cool. But if you are playing
a guitar, such as just about any solid body, that depends on an amp to
help *create* the tone, I think there are better choices out there
that are designed more for that purpose.
Kevin Van Sant
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message <3D5BC888...@nowhere.net>
:
>Kevin Van Sant wrote:
>> A solid body guitar doesn't have a
>> whole lot of tone on its own to make louder.
>Well obviously I disagree or I wouldn't be playing a solid body guitar.
I think a solid body is much more dependant on the right amp to
achieve desired tone than a good archtop is. Would you agree? It's
been my observation that solid body players are much more obsessive
about amps than archtop guys. I definitely have a preferred sound but
still I know that I can plug my L5 into anything and it will sound
pretty darn good.
This isn't an archtop vs solid body thing I'm trying to get into. I
don't care about that. I know you can get a great sound out of any
guitar, my point is to try to explain why you might not be impressed
by the sound of your tele through what is designed as an acoustic
instrument amplifier.
>My Tele sounds best when I plug it into a full range system with a
>speaker emulator (such as the Hughes & Kettner Red Box) in line. The
>speaker emulator merely mimics the EQ of a typical guitar speaker so it
>rolls off the high end above 5khz as well as the extreme low end. If I
>could get that sound from a combo amp at loud-jazz stage volumes I'd be
>be pretty happy.
>Compared to that benchmark the Contra was colouring my
>sound and colouring it unfavorably. My Polytone MBII sounds fine at low
>volumes but becomes boomy on the bottom end at stage volumes. Plus the
>PT sound is more than a little bit sterile and cold.
My feeling is that the other amps are coloring your sound favorably to
your ears and the contra or clarus hardly color at all. So your tele,
which depends somewhat on amp coloring sounds a bit naked through he
AI rig. I believe what you are perceiving as unfavorable coloring is
actually the absence of (favorable) coloring.
>So far, for jazz, I like the sound of a Clarus through a RET8 but this
>combination seemed artificially boosted on the extreme bottom end. I'd
>like to hear the Clarus through the T8 Tower though. I have a feeling
>that the low end will be much more tame with this cabinet design.
>
>On the other hand, if AI were themselves making a combo that sounded
>close to what a Clarus/RE rig sounds like I'd much rather have a combo.
>But it doesn't seem like they do.
THey do sound different. Again, I think the RE cabs color in a way
which is guitar friendly and the AI cab design is much more neutral
and transparent. That's why I think it is ideal for solo guitar when
that guitar already has a good acoustic sound but less ideal for group
settings where a guitar benefits from a narrower response which is
more typical to most other guitar cabs.
David C. Stephens
Well, the T8-T is a 4 Ohm speaker, so it meets your 4 Ohm "requirement",
just be careful not to equate speaker efficiency with load rating. At the
same Volume and Master Volume setting, the 8 Ohm Stealth 12 will play louder
and project better than a T8, even though the solid state amp may not be
putting out as much rated power. That's because the driver and cabinet
design combine to be more efficient. That said, the T8-T is the loudest
speaker that Raezer's Edge makes. Also, given what Joey's said in the past,
I think it would be an excellent match for his needs.
Dave
Joey Goldstein
Kevin Van Sant wrote:
>
> On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:28:18 -0400, Joey Goldstein
> <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message <3D5BC888...@nowhere.net>
> :
>
> >Kevin Van Sant wrote:
> >> A solid body guitar doesn't have a
> >> whole lot of tone on its own to make louder.
>
> >Well obviously I disagree or I wouldn't be playing a solid body guitar.
>
> I think a solid body is much more dependant on the right amp to
> achieve desired tone than a good archtop is. Would you agree?
Not really. If you stick a mic in front of your archtop then sure, but
as soon as you bring a magnetic pickup into the picture and listen
mainly to the sound of the amplified guitar a solid body and an archtop
are on an equal footing as far as dependence on the amp and the speaker
is concerned.
I played through another Contra again today and had more of a chance to
listen more closely. I think this downfiring woofer business helps to
give the *impression* of a big acoustical instrument but the sound is
hardly what I would call flat acoustically. Then again I did not plug an
archtop into it today either and maybe I should have.
> It's
> been my observation that solid body players are much more obsessive
> about amps than archtop guys. I definitely have a preferred sound but
> still I know that I can plug my L5 into anything and it will sound
> pretty darn good.
I find archtops to be even more finicky as far as getting a decent
amplified tone is concerned. That's why I use a solid body. Archtops are
more affected by open and closed back cabinets as far as feedback is
concerned. And the sound that the player hears acoustically as well as
the amplified sound is much more dependant on room acoustics and the
presence or absence of background noise.
> This isn't an archtop vs solid body thing I'm trying to get into. I
> don't care about that. I know you can get a great sound out of any
> guitar, my point is to try to explain why you might not be impressed
> by the sound of your tele through what is designed as an acoustic
> instrument amplifier.
>
> >My Tele sounds best when I plug it into a full range system with a
> >speaker emulator (such as the Hughes & Kettner Red Box) in line. The
> >speaker emulator merely mimics the EQ of a typical guitar speaker so it
> >rolls off the high end above 5khz as well as the extreme low end. If I
> >could get that sound from a combo amp at loud-jazz stage volumes I'd be
> >be pretty happy.
>
> >Compared to that benchmark the Contra was colouring my
> >sound and colouring it unfavorably. My Polytone MBII sounds fine at low
> >volumes but becomes boomy on the bottom end at stage volumes. Plus the
> >PT sound is more than a little bit sterile and cold.
>
> My feeling is that the other amps are coloring your sound favorably to
> your ears and the contra or clarus hardly color at all. So your tele,
> which depends somewhat on amp coloring sounds a bit naked through he
> AI rig. I believe what you are perceiving as unfavorable coloring is
> actually the absence of (favorable) coloring.
I just told you that my Tele sounds best for jazz through a *real* full
range system (not some downfiring hocus pocus system ... sorry, couldn't
resist <g>) flat with only a gizmo that mimics the EQ curve of a guitar
speaker in line. I guess you're not listening.
> >So far, for jazz, I like the sound of a Clarus through a RET8 but this
> >combination seemed artificially boosted on the extreme bottom end. I'd
> >like to hear the Clarus through the T8 Tower though. I have a feeling
> >that the low end will be much more tame with this cabinet design.
> >
> >On the other hand, if AI were themselves making a combo that sounded
> >close to what a Clarus/RE rig sounds like I'd much rather have a combo.
> >But it doesn't seem like they do.
>
> THey do sound different. Again, I think the RE cabs color in a way
> which is guitar friendly and the AI cab design is much more neutral
> and transparent. That's why I think it is ideal for solo guitar when
> that guitar already has a good acoustic sound but less ideal for group
> settings where a guitar benefits from a narrower response which is
> more typical to most other guitar cabs.
Well one day I'll have to try an archtop through a Contra but from what
I know and have heard already I don't think I'll like it either.
Different strokes I suppose.
>
> _________________________________________
> Kevin Van Sant
> jazz guitar
>
> http://www.onestopjazz.com/kvansant
> to buy my CDs, listen to sound clips, and get more info.
>
> Alternate site for recent soundclips
> http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
--
Joey Goldstein
combo amps from AI are not designed for electric guitar any moreso than
the older combo amps.
David C. Stephens
>
> I find archtops to be even more finicky as far as getting a decent
> amplified tone is concerned. That's why I use a solid body. Archtops are
> more affected by open and closed back cabinets as far as feedback is
> concerned. And the sound that the player hears acoustically as well as
> the amplified sound is much more dependant on room acoustics and the
> presence or absence of background noise.
This is a BIG reason that so many archtop players gravitate toward sturdy,
closed back designs, like Raezer's Edge. With a RE, it's easy to get a
consistent tone from room to room. My main worry when setting up is bass
level, which I adjust at the amp and placement of the cab (up on a chair, on
the floor, on top of the bass cab, etc., depending on the room). With a RE
cab you gain about 3 dB of headroom before feedback over a typical open-back
cab or combo. That's very significant. Before I received my first RE cab, I
used a '72 Custom Tele (with Seth Lover humbucker) when I needed to solo
over a loud big band. With the RE cab, I never needed the tele and ended up
selling it (a move I still regret, that was a fine axe).
Anyway, my archtop tone is very consistent from living room to armory and I
never get unwanted feedback, even with very loud groups.
Dave
David C. Stephens
Rick Jones of AI promised me a loaner for evaluation when he gets production
caught up (in the next few weeks or so). I'll post a mini-review hear after
I've heard it (you'll have to buy JJG to get the full review). Of course,
I'll compare it to the Clarus/RE combinations, use various guitars with it
and take it on a gig or two. (Too bad I sold that Tele).
I'm not sure what differences there will be. It could be that they'll just
add a reverb, but I've heard that they're focusing on efficiency, projection
and other similar factors of interest to guitarists.
Dave
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:3D5C4267...@nowhere.net...
Joey Goldstein
"David C. Stephens" wrote:
>
>
> Well, the T8-T is a 4 Ohm speaker, so it meets your 4 Ohm "requirement",
> just be careful not to equate speaker efficiency with load rating.
> At the
> same Volume and Master Volume setting, the 8 Ohm Stealth 12 will play louder
> and project better than a T8,
Hmmm. You really think so? Is this something you have tried yourself?
Surely some aspects of this experience would be subjectively
psychological rather than objectively scientific but I'll take your word
for it.
But I remember last year I hooked up a 1A to both those cabs and I
thought the opposite. I thought that both the T8 and the T8-T were much
louder than the Stealth 12 with the Clarus 1A. Of course I was playing
in a little room in a music store, not in a club.
The Clarus is rated at 120 watts into 8ohms. That's roughly the same
power as the Mini Brute with its internal 4ohm (or whatever) load. In my
experience, that's almost, but not quite enough, power for what I need
to do sometimes. [There are some really loud bebop drummers up here! <g>]
> even though the solid state amp may not be
> putting out as much rated power. That's because the driver and cabinet
> design combine to be more efficient.
What makes you think that the two 8", 150 watt, Emminence speakers in
the T8-T are any less efficient than the one 12", 200 watt, Eminence
speaker in the Stealth 12?
As far as cabinet design is concerned the T8 that I opened up was
essentially a Theile design (as far as I understand a Theile design that
is) but instead of the port spanning the full width of the bottom of the
cabinet he limits the air to escaping through those 2 holes by placing
an expanse of wood across the middle. He also staples some broadloom
around the top and sides (not the bottom) of the cabinets which I figure
helps to absorb some of the top end, which is why these cabs sound so
warm. There is also some acoustical foam insulation across the back of
the cabinet which will also absorb highs as well as lows. I imagine the
stealth 12 is designed the same way.
It would be interesting to compare a regular 12" Theile cabinet design,
like Mesa's, with the same Eminence 12" 200 watt speaker in it to the
Stealth 12. I don't think there'd be much difference but I could be wrong.
> That said, the T8-T is the loudest
> speaker that Raezer's Edge makes.
You just said it wasn't as loud as the Stealth 12? You mean the T8-T at
300 watts is *capable* of sounding louder but needs more power thrown at it?
> Also, given what Joey's said in the past,
> I think it would be an excellent match for his needs.
Well I really liked the sound of the 1A through a regular T8 but there
was some boominess on the bottom end when the cab is placed on the
floor, which is where I like it. A very palpable feeling is lost with
the cab on a chair or a milk crate for me. I figure that the tower
design might be a little bit more controlled in that frequency area.
Plus having one of the speakers closer to my ears will probably be a
nice balance.
Anyway, the newer Clari have a notch filter which is probably exactly
what I need to combat this problem with any cab.
> Dave
David C. Stephens
>
>
> "David C. Stephens" wrote:
> >
> >
> > Well, the T8-T is a 4 Ohm speaker, so it meets your 4 Ohm "requirement",
> > just be careful not to equate speaker efficiency with load rating.
>
>
> > At the
> > same Volume and Master Volume setting, the 8 Ohm Stealth 12 will play
louder
> > and project better than a T8,
>
> Hmmm. You really think so? Is this something you have tried yourself?
> Surely some aspects of this experience would be subjectively
> psychological rather than objectively scientific but I'll take your word
> for it.
Yes, measured it with my trusty Radio Shack SPL meter. Ranking the T8, the
T8-T and S12, comparing with "white noise" at the same Clarus amp settings,
the T8-T was the loudest, with the S12 less than a dB behind and the T8 (200
watt) less than another dB behind. The T8 is misleading to the ear. If you
measure them all at 100 hz, the T8 is loudest, because of the resonance or
presence in that region, as you've observed. The T8-T and S12 have very
similar response curves, so they "sound alike."
>
> But I remember last year I hooked up a 1A to both those cabs and I
> thought the opposite. I thought that both the T8 and the T8-T were much
> louder than the Stealth 12 with the Clarus 1A. Of course I was playing
> in a little room in a music store, not in a club.
>
> The Clarus is rated at 120 watts into 8ohms. That's roughly the same
> power as the Mini Brute with its internal 4ohm (or whatever) load. In my
> experience, that's almost, but not quite enough, power for what I need
> to do sometimes. [There are some really loud bebop drummers up here! <g>]
>
> > even though the solid state amp may not be
> > putting out as much rated power. That's because the driver and cabinet
> > design combine to be more efficient.
>
> What makes you think that the two 8", 150 watt, Emminence speakers in
> the T8-T are any less efficient than the one 12", 200 watt, Eminence
> speaker in the Stealth 12?
Because I measured it. Granted, to get the same SPL, the amp was actually
generating more Watts, but the controls were set the same. Loudness, or
acoustic energy is what I'm talking about. Those ratings from Eminence are
just "nominal" guidelines. Still, the speaker in the 200 watt S12 is rated
at 100 dBs at one watt at one meter (apparently mounted on a baffle board
and unenclosed -- that rating is per memory of Rich told me when he switched
to that particular speaker), which is pretty darn efficient.
>
> As far as cabinet design is concerned the T8 that I opened up was
> essentially a Theile design (as far as I understand a Theile design that
> is) but instead of the port spanning the full width of the bottom of the
> cabinet he limits the air to escaping through those 2 holes by placing
> an expanse of wood across the middle. He also staples some broadloom
> around the top and sides (not the bottom) of the cabinets which I figure
> helps to absorb some of the top end, which is why these cabs sound so
> warm. There is also some acoustical foam insulation across the back of
> the cabinet which will also absorb highs as well as lows. I imagine the
> stealth 12 is designed the same way.
>
> It would be interesting to compare a regular 12" Theile cabinet design,
> like Mesa's, with the same Eminence 12" 200 watt speaker in it to the
> Stealth 12. I don't think there'd be much difference but I could be wrong.
I think Zucker made such a comparison, except it was the same driver. You're
observations are correct. Basically, the RE cabs are Theile designs that
Rich has "tuned" through trial and error to get the sound that he and his
customers like.
>
> > That said, the T8-T is the loudest
> > speaker that Raezer's Edge makes.
>
> You just said it wasn't as loud as the Stealth 12? You mean the T8-T at
> 300 watts is *capable* of sounding louder but needs more power thrown at
it?
I think I said, I meant to say, that the S12 was louder than the T8, driven
by either a Clarus or Poly. See above comments regarding my comparisons
using an SPL meter.
>
> > Also, given what Joey's said in the past,
> > I think it would be an excellent match for his needs.
>
> Well I really liked the sound of the 1A through a regular T8 but there
> was some boominess on the bottom end when the cab is placed on the
> floor, which is where I like it. A very palpable feeling is lost with
> the cab on a chair or a milk crate for me. I figure that the tower
> design might be a little bit more controlled in that frequency area.
> Plus having one of the speakers closer to my ears will probably be a
> nice balance.
The tower design, different speaker and different porting all make the T8-T
very different from the T8. If you want the cab on the floor, then get a
T8-T. The T8 can couple with some rooms and get totally out of hand if
you're not careful. (Most living room players prefer it because it sounds
mellow in the near field and they don't need to turn it up loud. It's
probably the most recommended RE for those players. It can work well on a
gig, but I find I must put it on a chair).
>
> Anyway, the newer Clari have a notch filter which is probably exactly
> what I need to combat this problem with any cab.
The notch filter covers a pretty narrow band and is better at fixing
feedback as opposed to shaping the tone. It might help, but a good EQ pedal
might be better, assuming the stock Clarus controls don't do enough for you.
Dave
Joey Goldstein
"David C. Stephens" wrote:
>
> "Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
> news:3D5D144D...@nowhere.net...
> >
> >
> > "David C. Stephens" wrote:
> > >
> > It would be interesting to compare a regular 12" Theile cabinet design,
> > like Mesa's, with the same Eminence 12" 200 watt speaker in it to the
> > Stealth 12. I don't think there'd be much difference but I could be wrong.
>
> I think Zucker made such a comparison, except it was the same driver. You're
> observations are correct. Basically, the RE cabs are Theile designs that
> Rich has "tuned" through trial and error to get the sound that he and his
> customers like.
I could be wrong, but I think Jack's Theile cabinet is a Boogie and has
an EV in it. Plus he was comparing to to a T8 or T8-T I believe. Jack?
Care to chime in here?
> > > That said, the T8-T is the loudest
> > > speaker that Raezer's Edge makes.
> >
> > You just said it wasn't as loud as the Stealth 12? You mean the T8-T at
> > 300 watts is *capable* of sounding louder but needs more power thrown at
> it?
>
> I think I said, I meant to say, that the S12 was louder than the T8, driven
> by either a Clarus or Poly. See above comments regarding my comparisons
> using an SPL meter.
I understand. Still I thought the T8 and T8-T to be very noticeably
louder than the S12 the day that I compared them. But I didn't have an
spl meter! You're very thorough. <g>
> > Well I really liked the sound of the 1A through a regular T8 but there
> > was some boominess on the bottom end when the cab is placed on the
> > floor, which is where I like it. A very palpable feeling is lost with
> > the cab on a chair or a milk crate for me. I figure that the tower
> > design might be a little bit more controlled in that frequency area.
> > Plus having one of the speakers closer to my ears will probably be a
> > nice balance.
>
> The tower design, different speaker and different porting all make the T8-T
> very different from the T8. If you want the cab on the floor, then get a
> T8-T. The T8 can couple with some rooms and get totally out of hand if
> you're not careful. (Most living room players prefer it because it sounds
> mellow in the near field and they don't need to turn it up loud. It's
> probably the most recommended RE for those players. It can work well on a
> gig, but I find I must put it on a chair).
The problem in deciding will be that it's next to impossible to find all
of these cabs in the store (Murch) at one time to compare them. Plus
Murch is over an hour's drive from where I live so just going there is a hassle.
> > Anyway, the newer Clari have a notch filter which is probably exactly
> > what I need to combat this problem with any cab.
>
> The notch filter covers a pretty narrow band and is better at fixing
> feedback as opposed to shaping the tone. It might help, but a good EQ pedal
> might be better, assuming the stock Clarus controls don't do enough for you.
Thanks for your insights Dave.
David C. Stephens
>
>
> "David C. Stephens" wrote:
> >
> > "Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
> > news:3D5D144D...@nowhere.net...
> > >
> > >
> > > "David C. Stephens" wrote:
> > > >
>
> > > It would be interesting to compare a regular 12" Theile cabinet
design,
> > > like Mesa's, with the same Eminence 12" 200 watt speaker in it to the
> > > Stealth 12. I don't think there'd be much difference but I could be
wrong.
> >
> > I think Zucker made such a comparison, except it was the same driver.
You're
> > observations are correct. Basically, the RE cabs are Theile designs that
> > Rich has "tuned" through trial and error to get the sound that he and
his
> > customers like.
>
> I could be wrong, but I think Jack's Theile cabinet is a Boogie and has
> an EV in it. Plus he was comparing to to a T8 or T8-T I believe. Jack?
> Care to chime in here?
I meant to say "except it was <not> the same driver". Jack tried a bunch of
speakers a year or two ago and I thought one was a S12, but Jack should
correct me, if he likes. You're point is certainly correct in that it would
have been a Boogie, most likely with an EV.
>
> > > > That said, the T8-T is the loudest
> > > > speaker that Raezer's Edge makes.
> > >
> > > You just said it wasn't as loud as the Stealth 12? You mean the T8-T
at
> > > 300 watts is *capable* of sounding louder but needs more power thrown
at
> > it?
> >
> > I think I said, I meant to say, that the S12 was louder than the T8,
driven
> > by either a Clarus or Poly. See above comments regarding my comparisons
> > using an SPL meter.
>
> I understand. Still I thought the T8 and T8-T to be very noticeably
> louder than the S12 the day that I compared them. But I didn't have an
> spl meter! You're very thorough. <g>
Thanks. I've found that the ear is generally the best indicator, but it can
be fooled when the EQ starts varying wildly from "flat." Hence, I play it
safe with a few prelimary measurements with the trusty SPL. It's a real help
to understanding what's going on.
>
> > > Well I really liked the sound of the 1A through a regular T8 but there
> > > was some boominess on the bottom end when the cab is placed on the
> > > floor, which is where I like it. A very palpable feeling is lost with
> > > the cab on a chair or a milk crate for me. I figure that the tower
> > > design might be a little bit more controlled in that frequency area.
> > > Plus having one of the speakers closer to my ears will probably be a
> > > nice balance.
> >
> > The tower design, different speaker and different porting all make the
T8-T
> > very different from the T8. If you want the cab on the floor, then get a
> > T8-T. The T8 can couple with some rooms and get totally out of hand if
> > you're not careful. (Most living room players prefer it because it
sounds
> > mellow in the near field and they don't need to turn it up loud. It's
> > probably the most recommended RE for those players. It can work well on
a
> > gig, but I find I must put it on a chair).
>
> The problem in deciding will be that it's next to impossible to find all
> of these cabs in the store (Murch) at one time to compare them. Plus
> Murch is over an hour's drive from where I live so just going there is a
hassle.
Yeah, that's a shame. Only two or three dealers try to stock most models and
those that do have a hard time keeping them in stock. Raezer's backlog is
running several weeks, so buyers are scouring the dealers looking for
instant gratification (can't blame them). It takes a lot of fortitude for a
dealer to turn down sales in order to keep a demo-line in stock.
All that said, I think you'd be pretty safe starting with the T8-T. It
sounds fantastic out in the room. In near-field it'll have a little edge,
but pros tend to like the way that edge makes the speaker project. Listen at
about 20' before you reach any final conclusions. The tower design also
helps projection and you can set it flat on the floor.
Ciao,
Dave
Joey Goldstein
Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> Kevin Van Sant wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, 15 Aug 2002 11:28:18 -0400, Joey Goldstein
> > <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message <3D5BC888...@nowhere.net>
> > :
> >
> > >Kevin Van Sant wrote:
> > >>
> > My feeling is that the other amps are coloring your sound favorably to
> > your ears and the contra or clarus hardly color at all. So your tele,
> > which depends somewhat on amp coloring sounds a bit naked through he
> > AI rig. I believe what you are perceiving as unfavorable coloring is
> > actually the absence of (favorable) coloring.
>
> I just told you that my Tele sounds best for jazz through a *real* full
> range system (not some downfiring hocus pocus system ... sorry, couldn't
> resist <g>) flat with only a gizmo that mimics the EQ curve of a guitar
> speaker in line. I guess you're not listening.
BTW Kevin, I hope this did not come across as being hostile towards you
in any way (well maybe just a little defensive <g>). I have tons of
respect for you and value your opinions and your contributions to the
group. I just disagree about the "transparency" and "flat response" of
these downfiring woofer systems. To me, with the limited experience I've
had with these types of enclosures, they sound artificial and just plain weird.
Peace.
Kevin Van Sant
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message <3D5E7E8E...@nowhere.net>
:
>> I just told you that my Tele sounds best for jazz through a *real* full
>> range system (not some downfiring hocus pocus system ... sorry, couldn't
>> resist <g>) flat with only a gizmo that mimics the EQ curve of a guitar
>> speaker in line. I guess you're not listening.
>
>BTW Kevin, I hope this did not come across as being hostile towards you
>in any way (well maybe just a little defensive <g>). I have tons of
>respect for you and value your opinions and your contributions to the
>group. I just disagree about the "transparency" and "flat response" of
>these downfiring woofer systems. To me, with the limited experience I've
>had with these types of enclosures, they sound artificial and just plain weird.
Not at all Joey, thanks for saying that though. And I hope you know
that the respect is mutual.
The truth is I really don't care about these gear related questions to
begin with. It's only because I'm friends with the guy who makes
these amps and I feel like I know the amp really well (the combo in
particular) that I got involved in this one. But what you hear is
what you hear, and that's all that really matters.
I will say this though, your gizmo that mimics the EQ curve of a
guitar speaker is by definition coloring the sound. A typical guitar
speaker has a lot of mid range punch in it which just isn't present in
the AI setup (which is precisely why I don't like the way it blends in
a group setting) Also: the Contra that you tried out is a bit
different form the combos they make now. For starters the EQ freq's
are not the same, more importantly though that Contra didn't have the
tweeter. The new ones do. I have of course also played through the
old contras too. I don't think it worked nearly as well for guitar as
the newer set up. The reverb also makes a big improvement too. One
last thing, I've found that for guitar the sound is much better (much
less boomy) if you prop up the front of the box. (the old combos came
with a little triangle stand the new ones have a built in stand). For
bass it is usually more natural without the stand, for guitar is more
natural with the stand.
That being said, I still doubt that you will find the new AI combos
especially compatible with your Tele or any other solid body. And for
that matter I talked to Rick about this conversation and he basically
said he didn't really imagine his amps as being the choice for solid
body players either.
Kevin Van Sant
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message <3D5C3BC1...@nowhere.net>
:
>> It's
>> been my observation that solid body players are much more obsessive
>> about amps than archtop guys. I definitely have a preferred sound but
>> still I know that I can plug my L5 into anything and it will sound
>> pretty darn good.
>
>I find archtops to be even more finicky as far as getting a decent
>amplified tone is concerned. That's why I use a solid body. Archtops are
>more affected by open and closed back cabinets as far as feedback is
>concerned. And the sound that the player hears acoustically as well as
>the amplified sound is much more dependant on room acoustics and the
>presence or absence of background noise.
I guess I see it differently. I *know* that my L5 sounds good enough
to have a decent enough tone through virtually any amp. Open/closed
back... I don't really care. Feedback has never been an issue for me
(balloon method). All I know is that I've had to plug my L5 into all
kinds of crazy amps on various gigs I've played, even a Leslie once,
and it always sounds good even if the amp doesn't give me my
"personal" sound. OTOH when I used to play a solid body in a rock
band the ONLY amp that I was satisfied with was my boogie MkIIc. My
guitar was a really nice custom instrument but I never was comfortable
with the sound without the boogie. The way I see it a solid body
*needs* the amp much more.
But as we can both certainly agree on... different strokes and all
that. For as I said in my other post, I really don't care about all
this gear talk anyway. I'm just bummed that I had to change my
strings tonight after the wound G developed a few breaks in the
winding over a couple of frets so that it created a little sleave of
winding that was sliding up and down. I could't just change the one
string because it would have been so out of balance with he rest which
were probably about 6 or 8 months old and sounding TERRIFIC. Man, I
just don't like new strings.
Kevin Van Sant
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message <3D5A6D3E...@nowhere.net>
:
>
>Anybody know if they are coming out with a combo designed for guitar
>rather than for bass?
Joey, both of their combos, the Coda and the Contra are intended for
"acoustic instrument amplification". They are basically the same
electronics except one is two channel. You may have seen that they
are undergoing a revamp in their product line. The new design is like
this:
Their whole line uses the exact same speaker box which consists of the
down firing 10", a 5" mid range (front facing), and a 1" tweeter which
has an on/off switch. The electronics for all amps are either Clarus1
(1 channel), Clarus 1R (1 channel w/ reverb), Clarus 2 (2 channel), or
Clarus 2R (2 channel w/ reverb)
So the Contra is their combo with Clarus 1 or 1R electronics and the
Coda is their combo with the Clarus 2 or 2R electronics.
Pretty simple.
For my taste I still maintain that there is no better sounding amp in
existence for solo guitar. I even prefer Rick's speaker design to the
Clarus/RE set up FOR SOLO GUITAR. It is such a huge and high-fi sound
that can't be matched with a conventional speaker set up. But also to
my taste I don't find that it works for me in most settings where I am
sharing sonic space with bass and/or drums. Other people obviously
feel otherwise. Although there is one room where I only play quartet
gigs with piano/bass/drums that for whatever reason the AI works out
better than my Evans. But in virtually all other group settings I use
the Evans.
But man, for solo guitar or a duo with vocals or horn.....!
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message <3D5BC888...@nowhere.net>
:
>Kevin Van Sant wrote:
>> A solid body guitar doesn't have a
>> whole lot of tone on its own to make louder.
>Well obviously I disagree or I wouldn't be playing a solid body guitar.
I think a solid body is much more dependant on the right amp to
achieve desired tone than a good archtop is. Would you agree? It's
been my observation that solid body players are much more obsessive
about amps than archtop guys. I definitely have a preferred sound but
still I know that I can plug my L5 into anything and it will sound
pretty darn good.
This isn't an archtop vs solid body thing I'm trying to get into. I
don't care about that. I know you can get a great sound out of any
guitar, my point is to try to explain why you might not be impressed
by the sound of your tele through what is designed as an acoustic
instrument amplifier.
>My Tele sounds best when I plug it into a full range system with a
>speaker emulator (such as the Hughes & Kettner Red Box) in line. The
>speaker emulator merely mimics the EQ of a typical guitar speaker so it
>rolls off the high end above 5khz as well as the extreme low end. If I
>could get that sound from a combo amp at loud-jazz stage volumes I'd be
>be pretty happy.
>Compared to that benchmark the Contra was colouring my
>sound and colouring it unfavorably. My Polytone MBII sounds fine at low
>volumes but becomes boomy on the bottom end at stage volumes. Plus the
>PT sound is more than a little bit sterile and cold.
My feeling is that the other amps are coloring your sound favorably to
your ears and the contra or clarus hardly color at all. So your tele,
which depends somewhat on amp coloring sounds a bit naked through he
AI rig. I believe what you are perceiving as unfavorable coloring is
actually the absence of (favorable) coloring.
>So far, for jazz, I like the sound of a Clarus through a RET8 but this
>combination seemed artificially boosted on the extreme bottom end. I'd
>like to hear the Clarus through the T8 Tower though. I have a feeling
>that the low end will be much more tame with this cabinet design.
>
>On the other hand, if AI were themselves making a combo that sounded
>close to what a Clarus/RE rig sounds like I'd much rather have a combo.
>But it doesn't seem like they do.
THey do sound different. Again, I think the RE cabs color in a way
which is guitar friendly and the AI cab design is much more neutral
and transparent. That's why I think it is ideal for solo guitar when
that guitar already has a good acoustic sound but less ideal for group
settings where a guitar benefits from a narrower response which is
more typical to most other guitar cabs.
Kevin Van Sant
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message <3D5E7E8E...@nowhere.net>
:
>> I just told you that my Tele sounds best for jazz through a *real* full
>> range system (not some downfiring hocus pocus system ... sorry, couldn't
>> resist <g>) flat with only a gizmo that mimics the EQ curve of a guitar
>> speaker in line. I guess you're not listening.
>
>BTW Kevin, I hope this did not come across as being hostile towards you
>in any way (well maybe just a little defensive <g>). I have tons of
>respect for you and value your opinions and your contributions to the
>group. I just disagree about the "transparency" and "flat response" of
>these downfiring woofer systems. To me, with the limited experience I've
>had with these types of enclosures, they sound artificial and just plain weird.
Not at all Joey, thanks for saying that though. And I hope you know
Kevin Van Sant
<nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message <3D5C3BC1...@nowhere.net>
:
>> It's
>> been my observation that solid body players are much more obsessive
>> about amps than archtop guys. I definitely have a preferred sound but
>> still I know that I can plug my L5 into anything and it will sound
>> pretty darn good.
>
>I find archtops to be even more finicky as far as getting a decent
>amplified tone is concerned. That's why I use a solid body. Archtops are
>more affected by open and closed back cabinets as far as feedback is
>concerned. And the sound that the player hears acoustically as well as
>the amplified sound is much more dependant on room acoustics and the
>presence or absence of background noise.
I guess I see it differently. I *know* that my L5 sounds good enough
to have a decent enough tone through virtually any amp. Open/closed
back... I don't really care. Feedback has never been an issue for me
(balloon method). All I know is that I've had to plug my L5 into all
kinds of crazy amps on various gigs I've played, even a Leslie once,
and it always sounds good even if the amp doesn't give me my
"personal" sound. OTOH when I used to play a solid body in a rock
band the ONLY amp that I was satisfied with was my boogie MkIIc. My
guitar was a really nice custom instrument but I never was comfortable
with the sound without the boogie. The way I see it a solid body
*needs* the amp much more.
But as we can both certainly agree on... different strokes and all
that. For as I said in my other post, I really don't care about all
this gear talk anyway. I'm just bummed that I had to change my
strings tonight after the wound G developed a few breaks in the
winding over a couple of frets so that it created a little sleave of
winding that was sliding up and down. I could't just change the one
string because it would have been so out of balance with he rest which
were probably about 6 or 8 months old and sounding TERRIFIC. Man, I
just don't like new strings.