Frank Zappa/Joe Pass connection!
ScotGormley
Fender Blues Junior amps . . . I was playing some Joe Pass
arrangements, when a customer came up to me and asked what scales I
was using (how do you answer that question: "All of Them"?)--he said I
sounded just like Frank Zappa!
Dan Adler
> a customer came up to me and asked what scales I
> was using (how do you answer that question: "All of Them"?)
I like Pat Metheny's answer from an interview he did many years ago:
"What vowels do you like to use?"
tom walls
Zappa plays notes, you play notes! Don't think we haven't noticed.
rlemos...@gmail.com
C'mon guys,
I was once that kid at Guitar Center hearing jazz live for the first
time and being blown away. I am actually sad if someone like Metheny
answered a sincere question like that. I know that first class
musicians/people like Jimmy Bruno or Jack Wilkins would not respond
like that. I wonder if the story I heard about Chet Atkins is true.
The way it goes is that after hearing him someone told him something
like, "That guitar sure sounded good." Story goes that he put his
guitar on a stool and then told the person, "How does it sound now?".
Maybe we should start a thread on rude comebacks when someone gives us
a complement (not).
Ron
Tom Jaffe
"rle...@calstatela.edu" <rlemos...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dd5c0ffa-5807-4113...@b25g2000prb.googlegroups.com...
Joe Finn
news:baaa39e7-11ac-4e3e...@l9g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...
That was actually a compliment, right? Frank Zappa was probably the first
thing that popped into the guy's head. Most people are not terribly
discerning when it comes to music anyway. ....joe
--
Visit me on the web www.JoeFinn.net
Dave
IIRC, that was something Pat said in an interview, regarding how he feels
when people ask him what scales he uses. He said that to him, that question
is a little like asking writer which verbs he likes to use. I think his
point was that there's really no way to answer that particular question;
it's just too general.
pmfan57
>
> - Show quoted text -
And yet he has also said that when he is learning a new chord
progression he starts off with a chord/scale concept until he has
really internalized the progression. He could have just told the
person that he does that. (Although I have no idea if he really ever
was rude to anyone like that.)
steve
On 19-Oct-2009, "Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote:
> That was actually a compliment, right? Frank Zappa was probably the first
> thing that popped into the guy's head. Most people are not terribly
> discerning when it comes to music anyway. ....joe
Many years ago, I parked my Moto Morini 500 (that's an obscure italian
motorcycle) outside a biker bar, while I shopped next door. While I was
gone, the Harley Davidson owners piled out of the bar to take a look. When
I returned from my errand, I was surrounded by a lot of guys that I
was..shall we say...concerned about treating with the proper deference.
Amoung the many really stupid questions I got was this baffling inquiry:
"Is that like a Kawasaki?"
I dont recall my response, but it wasnt anything like: "Well, it's got the
same number of wheels..."
steve
--
"DONT TREAD ON ME"
Gadsden Flag
Krish
few weeks ago.
apparently he read it in a book about joe pass. he said joe pass
heard about this guy "frank zappa, and how hes the best jazz guitarist
ever" or something like that. and so he managed to somehow get to sit
in with Frank in the mid 60s...
i dont think Pass was too impressed with Frank Zappas "jazz" skills.
heh.. who knows though..
Marc Why
I'd be honored if someone thought I sounded like FZ!
Marc
ScotGormley
Come to think of it, I saw Kenny Poole play in a small bar in
Cincinnati a few years back and he let me sit in for awhile--I played
his Ibanez JP20. At some point that evening he mentioned that Frank
Zappa was his favorite rock guitarist. And, I have the Shut Up and
Play 'yer Guitar Zappa box set (cassettes). I need to listen to them
again--maybe some of Frank HAS seeped into my playing.
I also loved Zappa's Guitar Player column. When it first came out, it
was called "Absolutely Frank," but he thought that sounded too
serious, so he changed it to "Non-foods."
tomb...@jhu.edu
I was unable to trace a Zappa/Pass connection. But I did link Zappa to
David Schwimmer within six degrees of separation:
terra...@gmail.com
Zappa & Pass had the same barber.
Dan Adler
wrote:
> Zappa & Pass had the same barber.
Groucho and Pass had the same cigar.
Dan Adler
Dave,
You were right! Now you made me find the book ("New Directions in
Modern Guitar"), so here is the excerpt (this is from December 1981
Guitar Player):
Q: "Can you look back on a solo and analyze what you're doing
theoretically?"
A: I always feel funny when somebody comes up to me and says "What
kind of modes do you use" or, "what kind of scales do you use?". To
me, that is the equivalent of someone asking , "What kind of verbs do
you use?". The idea is to play music, and assuming that you're a good
musician, you've spent a lot of time learning the grammar of music.
And the grammar of music includes the knowledge of all those things.
You can't know just a few modes or a few scales; you have to know all
of them, and you have to get from one to the next without even
thinking about it, without even blinking an eye. Like most players who
are accomplished as improvisers, I understand all those modes, all of
the technical details of improvising quite thoroughly - and I have
understood them thoroughly now for a few years. I don't see that as
miraculous or anything special, other than I've spent the time to
learn the grammar of improvising - just like a writer has spent the
time to learn the grammar of English. That doesn't mean he's a good
writer, but at least he's got the tools to work with.
Q: "Surely there are exceptions, though".
A: Sure. There are people who couldn't tell you what's what about the
grammar in a technical sense but instinctively know what to do. There
are people who speak poor English - myself included - but can convey
thoughts that still make sense. To me, the idea is to become a good
musician, and as my subject matter I tend to deal in fairly
complicated harmonic areas, so it's important for me to understand
harmony. But, in terms of what's going on while I'm playing, I don't
have to think about it any more, just like a person who's writing a
novel doesn't have to get the dictionary out every five minutes to
figure out what tense he's going to use. He just goes for it because
he knows what to do.
OK...enough typing...
6fingers
( http://www.stevelaury.com/html/s_zappa.html )
Joe Pass was a great jazz guitarist, one of the best in history. I got
to know Joe before his death due to Cancer. We had a lot in common. We
were both from New Jersey, played guitar, had recorded national
records, loved a good red wine, adored pasta and we were both dealing
with Cancer.
Joe had traveled the world-playing guitar with jazz great such as Ella
Fitzgarald and Oscar Peterson, and the list goes on. Joe also had some
really great stories to tell. Frankly, I enjoyed the behind the scene
stories as much as playing guitar with this jazz giant. Yes, I did
steal some licks from him. He was very generous. Joe liked my playing
because in his words, "I could swing." He loved my "modern Ideas" in
his words and actually stop me during our playing to find out exactly
what I was thinking and playing. It was a true honor to show the great
Joe Pass my simple concepts.
My favorite Joe Pass story is the Frank Zappa saga. I had read in many
publications about Frank Zappa that said he was a gifted jazz
guitarist, one of the best in the world. I had a problem with this
propaganda because on his recordings he played very lack luster rock
and roll solos.
Joe and Tommy Tedesco were doing a NAMM show in Anaheim California in
the early 1980s. For the folks who do not know who Tommy Tedesco was,
most of all the TV themes and movie scores, with guitar, Tommy Tedesco
played them all from the 1950s through the 1970s. He was the busiest
session guitarist in Hollywood at this time always getting "First
Call." Aside from these accomplishments, Tommy was a great jazz
guitarist also.
The story goes like this according to Joe Pass and I'm paraphrasing:
"Tommy and I were both very excited to hear the Frank Zappa would be
gracing our small stage that day at the NAMM show." Joe went on to say
"In fact I was nervous, my palms were sweating, I had read and heard
that this man was one of the greatest guitarists and composers of all
time, like a modern day Mozart."
"We played a set, we waited, no Zappa, we played another set, still no
Zappa. By this time, the suspense was killing both Tedesco and
myself," (myself meaning Joe Pass.)
"At last, we see a dark haired man wearing a black long cape
surrounded by a flock of worshipers coming toward our stage. We had to
stop playing because there was complete chaos around our booth as
Zappa was signing autographs and his fans were trying to touch his
garment."
"After an hour of worship and autographs, he picks up a guitar and
bangs out a couple of loud bar chords. Zappa turns to Tommy and asks,
'What do you guys what to play?'" Joe Pass started to rattle off tunes
like Giant Steps, a John Coltrane classic, hey, Joe said, "we figured
this Zappa guy is the best, lets play the most demanding music
possible."
"After requesting more then two dozen standards, we realized this guy
couldn't play any standards, not one. We ended up playing a TOO loud
12 bar blues, that's all Frank could play. It was pathetic."
Both Tommy Tedesco and Joe Pass decided to take a very long break and
escape, outside at least until Zappa left.
It just goes to show you that you can never believe what you read.
Until you, the listener actually hear the musician play, only then can
you make your own judgment. Remember magazine articles are written by
non musician journalist and in many cases can be pure propaganda.
God bless Joe Pass and Tommy Tedesco! (end)
Frank Zappa = Great comedian / so-so guitar player (think Henny
Youngman with a guitar)
Joe Pass = Great player / TERRIBLE comedian (think George Goebell with
chops)
Tommy Tedesco = Great player / great comedian (think Tommy Tedesco !)
Comments invited.....................tootles !
6fingers
pmfan57
Why is this posted twice? Anyway, thanks. Zappa NEVER claimed to be
a jazz guitarist or musician. I can't imagine how anyone ever said he
was. He considered himself more of a composer and a blues/rock
guitarist. He greatly admired Tommy Tedesco, and said so publicly,
and I'm pretty sure Tommy played on some of Zappa's albums.
Gerry
> "At last, we see a dark haired man wearing a black long cape
> surrounded by a flock of worshipers coming toward our stage. We had to
> stop playing because there was complete chaos around our booth as
> Zappa was signing autographs and his fans were trying to touch his
> garment."
>
> "After an hour of worship and autographs, he picks up a guitar and
> bangs out a couple of loud bar chords. Zappa turns to Tommy and asks,
> 'What do you guys what to play?'" Joe Pass started to rattle off tunes
> like Giant Steps, a John Coltrane classic, hey, Joe said, "we figured
> this Zappa guy is the best, lets play the most demanding music
> possible."
>
> "After requesting more then two dozen standards, we realized this guy
> couldn't play any standards, not one. We ended up playing a TOO loud
> 12 bar blues, that's all Frank could play. It was pathetic."
>
> Both Tommy Tedesco and Joe Pass decided to take a very long break and
> escape, outside at least until Zappa left.
>
> It just goes to show you that you can never believe what you read.
I'll take your word for it and start with the story you've shared. For
years I've heard the most outrageous lies about Zappa usually involving
body fluids, sexual escapades, drugs and all kinds of other noise. I
had not yet heard any from the jazz world yet. I file them all in the
same drawer.
--
Dogmatism kills jazz. Iconoclasm kills rock. Rock dulls scissors.
Dave
<snip>
Dan, thanks for digging that out...and for all the typing!
Joe Finn
news:4c6df403-ab4e-406a...@p23g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
Thanks for the story. Frank Zappa was many things but I don't think he was
ever mistaken for a jazz musician. I don't think he saw himself in that
light at all. I can understand that the hype surrounding his celebrity
status would be twisted into a story about his guitar prowess.
Tedesco knew literally everybody in the music business in California back in
those days. He was acquainted with Zappa and recorded with him. In his book
"Confessions of a Guitar Player" Tedesco mentions how difficult and
challenging Zappa's music was. ....joe
pmfan57
> "6fingers" <joey6fing...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
And Zappa once said in response to some shredder playing, that if you
want to hear fast, you should hear Tommy Tedesco play.
Dave
<snip>
> And yet he has also said that when he is learning a new chord
> progression he starts off with a chord/scale concept until he has
> really internalized the progression. He could have just told the
> person that he does that. (Although I have no idea if he really ever
> was rude to anyone like that.)
But as I explained, and as the excerpt posted by Dan shows, that's not an
actual reply that Pat actually gave to anyone.