Pat Martino Minor Conversion Concept
Darren
understand the Minor Conversion concept that Pat talks about.
He says he plays a m7 over a dominant, ie cm7 over F13, but that it's NOT a
modal or scalar pattern, ie not Dorian or C minor scale.
So I looked at the transcription booklet, and the notes don't seem to be
necessarily in any key, so I have a hard time understanding what
the 'concept' actually is.
anyone?
-d
Jeff Rodman
Pat Martino's playing can be heavily chromatic so that it's sometimes
difficult to see the wood for the trees when analysing his lines.
The bottom line is this: Pat is thinking as a guitarist -- he is
talking of minor 'shapes'. Playing off of chord shapes goes back to the
origins of jazz guitar. Charlie Christian's playing for example was
based on a small repetoire of obvious chord shapes.
So one way to practice Pat Martino's idea is simply to put on a chord
vamp (dominant or major chord) and then play from the appropriate minor
shape. For example, over G7 or Fmaj7 play lines off of a D minor shape.
Of course Pat's amazing playing comes from his use of rhythm and
phrasing plus his sensitive use of passing tones and other
embellishments to the basic chord shapes.
If you look at some of his lines you will find embedded in them all
kinds of devices -- arpeggios, short scale runs, surround tones etc.
Creative Force 1 is worth examining in detail and taking those lines
apart even if, like me, you find it impossible to play them at Pat's
speed.
Good Luck.
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Darren
Thank you for your comments. I still don't understand however, what is meant
by 'minor shape'.??
For example, if I am playing C-7, I can be barring from the 5th string 3rd
fret and playing c,b flat, e flat,g on the 1st and 4th strings. So what
do I play? Just those notes of the chord, and some passing tones? I can play
only those notes, or I can play off the c minor scale or c dorian scale
(which pat says he isn't doing), but I still don't understand 'minor
conversion concept', and 'minor shape' as specifically what the decision
strategy is on what to play.
Maybe I'm overcomplicating it, but it's just not clear to me.
-d
Jeff Rodman <j.rodman...@bathspa.ac.uk.invalid> wrote in message
news:0a0133f8...@usw-ex0102-016.remarq.com...
Peter Hata
Pat's licks seem to be borrowed from Wes, who really revolutioned jazz
guitar in the 60's. George Benson also plays a lot of Wes' ideas. The
M.C. concept is really hip though, which is why all the greats use it.
Look at Joe Pass also, or modern players like Earl Klugh. The basic idea
is to know the appropriate minor scale(s) for each chord. For instance,
over a G7, you could play various D, F or Ab minor sounds. Check out
Marc Sabatella's Jazz Improv Primar at his website for chd-scale theory.
What Pat uses most often as his minor scale is essentially a dorian
scale, but with melodic minor elements (esp. the #7) and chromatics
(4-3-b3; 1-M7-b7, 5-b5-4). Also, he often plays arpeggios contained in
the minor scale, such as the maj7 off the b3, etc. If you analyse his
solos, you'll find that--with his added chromatics--he's actually very
cleverly found ways to play all 12 chromatic notes over any given chord.
As far as fingerings, Pat can play 16ths all day at 140 bpm anywhere on
the neck. He clearly uses the common five (minor) fingerings, based on
the open string forms, but also in-between fingerings. Also, a key to
his style is moving up and down the neck with chromatics and slides.
-Peter Hata
jrw
convert to minor concept explained, in detail, with clear examples.
News
Bb is the XI. So Cm7 is F7,9,11 without root and third.
As F13 is a dominant 7, C dorian would not be the right concept.
Darren wrote in message ...
jpin
C dorian is an a fine scale choice for F13....or maybe you meant to say
that??
If yu approached a 11 V in Cmi7 / F13 /
then you could think c dorian then F mixolyd.......or you could think the
parent scale Bb major
or.....play of the 11mi7 ...dorian.
News wrote in message <81cug5$5ri$1...@news1.exit109.com>...
John Sheehy
"News" <ptmu...@exit109.com> wrote :
>As F13 is a dominant 7, C dorian would not be the right concept.
Actually, a minor 3rd against a major 3rd harmony is quite normal;
especially if the chord is a local tonic.
--
<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
John P Sheehy <jsh...@ix.netcom.com>
><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
John Sheehy
John Sheehy <jsh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote :
>In message <81cug5$5ri$1...@news1.exit109.com>,
>"News" <ptmu...@exit109.com> wrote :
>
>>As F13 is a dominant 7, C dorian would not be the right concept.
>
>Actually, a minor 3rd against a major 3rd harmony is quite normal;
>especially if the chord is a local tonic.
Oops! I didn't see that C there; I thought it was F Dorian. In that
case, C Dorian has the same notes as F Mixolydian, so the concept has
the potential to be ontrack, as long as you don't take the root of D
Dorian literally, and just use it as a mnemonic. Of course, if the
context weren't jazz, but rather Disco or Funk, C could very well be the
tonal center of a Dorian Cm - F13 (i - IV13).
John Sheehy
John Sheehy <jsh...@ix.netcom.com> wrote :
>Oops! I didn't see that C there; I thought it was F Dorian. In that
>case, C Dorian has the same notes as F Mixolydian, so the concept has
>the potential to be ontrack, as long as you don't take the root of D
>Dorian literally,
Damn, I did it again. That should be C Dorian. MAybe I should turn off
the computer and take a nap.
PrymalUrge
book means?
Dave Mazza
Cmi is 2 in Bb, Fdom is 5 in Bb. C Dorian/F Mixolydian/Bb Maj(Ionian)--same
notes.
Richard
> Let's not complicate things here...
>
> Cmi is 2 in Bb, Fdom is 5 in Bb. C Dorian/F Mixolydian/Bb Maj(Ionian)--same
> notes.
*This* isn't the minor conversion concept, is it? If so, we've been
using it for decades.
--
Disclaimer: These are simply some of my personal opinions.
UPDATED 10/7/99 http://home.earthlink.net/~huddler
Jeff Rodman
stuff is, as far as Pat Martino is concerned, a red herring.
He says explicitly in his video that he is not thinking modally, or in
a scalar fashion at all. (Although he admits his lines could be
analysed this way).
The shape idea, as I said, is not new. Check out Herb Ellis's series of
books for another use of this idea.
The 'shape' is just that. It is a pattern of dots on the fingerboard
that outlines a minor chord in 4 inversions. Pat Martino has his own
favourite fingerings for these 4 'shapes'. You will probably have yours.
The minor chordal outline is then simply a skeleton upon which other
notes (diatonic, chromatic) are draped.
In any of his lines you will see minor scales of various kinds. Pat
uses his experience and sense of musical taste to inflect the basic
shape with other note choices.
One practical way to see this is to take one of his lines, say a G7
line and circle notes belonging to a D minor triad or D minor 6 chord.
Then check to see how he leads into those notes and how he leads out of
them to the next chordal note.
Hope this helps.
Rick Stone
Pat put out a book on REH publications called "Linear Expressions." Try
to get a copy of it if it's still in print (maybe someone on the group
has one to sell?) It should make everything Jeff said quite clear.
Then get the video.
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