Imitate, then innovate: Manet/Velazquez
kuboken
improvisation here a while back. (Does Jackson Pollack know exactly
where every drop of paint will land? Can you hear every note you
play?)
Also there were some related discussions like 'should one transcribe
to learn jazz?'. Regarding free players, "yeah but can he swing?
can he play bebop?", the artistic equivalant like asking about
Pollack, "...yeah but can he reproduce the Last Supper?"
I just saw a very interesting exhibition at the Metropolitan Museum of
Art (NYC) called "Manet/Velazquez: The French Taste for Spanish
Painting". It is a comparative exhibit showing the Spanish influence
on the young impressionist painters. Basically after France conquered
Spain, the young French painters rushed to Spain and was blown away by
the Spanish painters.
Manet came back from Spain exclaiming that "Velazquez is possibly the
most important painter that ever lived..." or some such thing and
painted 'the Tragic Actor' which is basically a copy (or contrafact)
of Velazquez's 'Jester Pablo de Valldolid". Also, Manet's 'Fifer'
also looks like it is modeled after Velazquez's style.
Another 'copy' was Manet's 'Dead Toreador' which looks just like
Velazquez's 'Dead Soldier'.
They also showed John Singer Sargent's exact copy (or almost exact
copy) of Velazquez's "Dwarf with a Mastiff".
Anyway it is amazing to see these paintings side by side, and to think
how that developed into the French impressionist movement only a few
years later.
It truly reminds me of how Bird must have sounded like Prez early on,
and how Sonny Rollins early stuff sounds a lot like Bird etc...
Separately, someone who just finished reading Van Gogh's letters told
me that Van Gogh spent many years in his youth trying to recreate the
master paintings.
I guess the point is, noone just starts painting directly onto the
canvas from the tubes from the beginning!
Also, if Manet didn't develop with the impressionist movement, we
probably would not know who he is today.
It is a great exhibit and totally inspiring, so if you are in NY,
check it out! It's always nice to get some visual stimulation (John
Zorn is known to have composed many of his tunes sitting in the
Museum...)
(there are some samples and an online comparative painting exhibit at
the Met's website too for those not in NY).
Anyway, I just thought this was really interesting...
Ken
Dan Adler
> I remember there was comparisons between painting and jazz
> improvisation here a while back. (Does Jackson Pollack know exactly
> where every drop of paint will land? Can you hear every note you
> play?)
But do you think Kandinsky kept his place in the form?
kuboken
I bet he definitely knew which way was up! ;)
Ken
Oscar Bearinger
One thing interesting for me is how you see the "influenced" paintings side
by side and you can see the similarities.....yet.....
Reminds me of Gregory Bateson's comment on "the difference that makes a
difference."
Probably the person who knows the important difference between the original
and the imitation is the person imitating, who is going somewhere ELSE than
the original artist. So we learn by imitating, BUT WE TAKE IT SOMEWHERE
ELSE.
When we are able to play what we hear in our head, we offer the "somewhere
else", which is our own unique perspective/experience, to others.
Thanks for telling us about the show. Useful to me (outside NYC!!) through
my art books :o)
Oscar
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thom_j.
"kuboken" wrote:
>(Does Jackson Pollack know exactly where every drop
> of paint will land? Can you hear every note you play?)
No! and many times these are the best lessons you may
ever learn! Factoid.. cheers thom_j.
P.S. it can be named "accidental creativity", if you will