The bVI diminished chord
Antal Abel
I was recently going over some Jobim tunes and have found that many of
his songs use the bVi diminished.
In minor key tunes he does it in O Grande Amor (Am, Abdim7, Gm, C7
etc) and similarly in Corcovado.
In major key tunes he does it in Wave (Dmaj, Bbdim7, Am, D7b9).
At first I thought these chords where just Vb9 with the b9 in the bass
but i started thinking more about what i would possibly play over that
chord (based off the tunes listed above). I want to stay away from the
diminshed scale. I found that the harmonic minor scale a half step
away from the diminished chord works nicely here. I remember doing the
same thing on all the things you are (Dbm Gb7, Cm, Bdim, Bb...).
What do you guys typically do on those kinds of chord progressions (in
maj and minor keys)?
Do you typically do the same kind of thing on the inversion of the bVI
dim chord? (VIIdim7, IIdim7, IVdim7)
tomb...@jhu.edu
> Hey all,
>
> I was recently going over some Jobim tunes and have found that many of
> his songs use the bVi diminished.
>
> In minor key tunes he does it in O Grande Amor (Am, Abdim7, Gm, C7
> etc) and similarly in Corcovado.
Those two I hear as biiidim7. That harmony has its own sound and
function. It's a key feature of many standard songs. It goes both up
and down (ii moving to ii; and iii moving to ii).
> In major key tunes he does it in Wave (Dmaj, Bbdim7, Am, D7b9).
In Wave I hear it as an A7(b9), used as a passing chord setting up the
ii-V.
> At first I thought these chords where just Vb9 with the b9 in the bass
In Wave, yes, but not in the first two.
> but i started thinking more about what i would possibly play over that
> chord (based off the tunes listed above). I want to stay away from the
> diminshed scale.
Arpeggios are the place to start hearing diminished harmonies. You can
often relate dim7 chords to 7b9 chords, and try using similar
arpeggios and licks.
> Do you typically do the same kind of thing on the inversion of the bVI
> dim chord? (VIIdim7, IIdim7, IVdim7)
Dim7 chords have distinct functions in standard songs. Learn to hear
them in context, according to where they come from and what they
resolve to. I personally find the scale-over-chord approach to be a
backwards way of learning jazz harmony. I would advocate learning to
hear the chord tones and make licks out of them first.
rlemos...@gmail.com
Hello,
This is a very important topic, especially in jazz music. In fact, I
have written an article about soloing over diminished chords,
"Diminished Scales Not Useful for Diminished Chords", that directly
addresses your questions. It will be coming out in the February 2010
issue of JUST JAZZ GUITAR. As you can infer from the title, I am
recommending forgetting about diminished scales for diminished chords.
What I advocate is the use of two specific pentatonic scales to cover
the three types of diminished chords.
There are really only three distinct diminished chords (Idim7, #Idim7,
and IIdim7). The sets of equivalent diminished seventh chords are
shown below.
Idim7 = bIIIdim7 = bVdim7 = VIdim7
#Idim7 = IIIdim7 = Vdim7 = bVIIdim7
IIdim7 = IVdim7 = bVIdim7 = VIIdim7
The article is based on my recent book, Jazz Guitar Soloing Concepts:
A Pentatonic Modal Approach to Improvisation,
(http://instructional1.calstatela.edu/rlemos/
jazz_guitar_improvisation_using.htm), In the book, I recommend the
Major Blues Pentatonic Scale for Idim7 chords (Chapter 11) or the
Mixolydian b9 Pentatonic Scale for #Idim7 or IIdim7 chords (Chapter
19). The forthcoming article focuses on the Major Blues Pentatonic
Scale for the Idim7 chord in the following chord progressions: Night
and Day, All the Things You Are, Meditation, and the jazz Turnaround.
"Wave" is kind of unique. Does the Bbdim7 belong to the key of D (key
of song) or the key of G (temporary approaching key)? If you hear the
Bbdim7 as a rootless A7b9 then it is a IIdim7 (Bbdim7 = Edim7=IIdim7)
in the key of D. In this case, I suggest what I call the A Mixolydian
b9 Pentatonic Scale for soloing. If you hear it as part of a standard
turnaround in G (Bm7 Bbdim7 Am7 D7/Ab7 resolving to the Gmaj7), the I
suggest the G Major Blues Pentatonic scale since Bbdim7 = Gdim7 =
Idim7 is in the temporary key of G. Either pentatonic scale will sound
fine, there are NO avoid notes, and you don't have to deal with
diminished scales.
Hope this helps.
Ron
Joey Goldstein
In A minor the bVIdim7 chord would be Fdim7, not Abdim7.
Sure they are enharmonically equivalent, but they are not the same
entity exactly.
The 2nd chord of O Grande Amor, as you posted it, and the 2nd chord in
Corcovado, is a dual function chord. It's first heard as VIIdim7 in the
key of A minor. VIIdim7 is really just an inversion of V7b9. I.e. Your
Abdim7 is really functioning as E7b9/G#. Try playing over it with the
7th mode (or the 5th mode) of A harmonic minor to bring this
relationship out. Or try some other chord-scale relationships that you
might already be hearing as being compatible with a V7b9 chord in a
minor key.
The chord tones are:
G# B D F
If we choose our non-chord-tones from the a nat min scale we might choose:
A C A and G
So our scale would be: G# A B C D E F G G#
That's an 8-tone scale that's just like A nat min plus G#, or just like
a harm min plus G nat, or just like C major plus G# (aka the C6 bebop
scale or the C6 diminished scale as Barry Harris calls it).
But this chord is also serving as bIIIdim7 in a progression that is
leading towards a secondary key of F major. Of course, in the case of O
Grande Amor it never actually arrives at the Fmaj chord.
If we take our non-chord-tones from the F maj scale we can bring out
that relationship a bit more and we might get:
G# B D F G#
A Bb C E G
Since A is an avoid note on this chord a lot of folks would leave it out.
G# Bb B C D E F G G#
It's not a common scale, but you might look at it as being F melodic
minor with a chromatic passing tone between Bb and C.
If we leave out the C, which is the other avoid note in this scale we'd
have:
G# Bb B D E F G G#
That's not a common scale either.
But it's just like the D whole-half dim scale (or the G# whole-half,
etc.) with its C# omitted.
If you do decide to use the entire dim scale then just be aware that the
note C# is a little bit "out" as far as the key environment (C# is kinda
anathema to the key of A minor) is concerned although it's a nice sound
vertically on the chord.
"Typically" I treat this as E7b9.
In Wave, the Bbdim7 is correctly labelled as bVIdim7.
In this case it's serving as an approach chord to IIm7-of-IV and has a
sound similar to V7b9, i.e. it's like an A7b9 chord moving to Am7-D7
instead of to Dmaj.
If we take our non chord tones from the key of D we might use:
Bb C# E G Bb
B D F# A
Keep in mind that he B and D are avoid notes on this chord.
That's essentially a B harm min scale starting on A#, plus the note A nat.
So using this scale on this chord is kinda like treating it as F#7b9 in
B minor. You might get some mileage on this chord by using other scales
that you'd use on F#7b9 as V7 in B minor. Eg. F# altered. But it's not
really functioning anything like F#7 in B minor, so you might not have
much luck here.
If we leave out the B then we'll have a scale that's closely related to
A7b9 as V7 in D major:
A Bb C# D E F# G A
That's a mode of D harmonic major. You might get some mileage on this
chord by using other scales that you associated with A7b9 in D major or
even in D minor. Eg. The 5th mode of D harm min plus C nat, or A altered.
If we take our NCTs from the G maj scale, the scale of the secondary key
that's coming up, we might use:
Bb C# E G Bb
C D F# A
Now we have one less avoid note and one new extension available, C.
Not a common scale.
If we omit the D, the avoid note, then we'll have a whole-half dim scale
(built on Bb C# E or G) with the D# omitted.
If you do decide to use the entire dim scale on this chord try to be
aware that the D# is a little bit outside of the keys that are active
here, even though it's a nice extension on the chord.
"Typically" I treat this as A7b9.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
Joey Goldstein
>
> An improvisatory genius like Tal Farlow was using the major pentatonic
> scale over the Idim7 chord in Nite & Day back in the 50s, and it
> sounds much more natural and flows better than using a dim7 arp or
> scale.
Which major pentatonic scale do you advocate using on say Bbdim7 in Wave?
In my lexicon there is no maj pent scale that completely 'fits' this
dim7 chord or any dim7 chord for that matter.
Any maj pent you might play on a dim7 chord will have at least 1 avoid
note in it against that chord. That doesn't mean that it's unusable though.
Rick Stone
I tend to THINKG of "chords" and not so much about "scales" (although I
certainly practice scales, patterns and the arpeggios that come out of
them a whole bunch).
Check out the following video that I did of "Wave"
http://www.youtube.com/jazzand#p/u/0/2bn_XK-3fYI
I made this as an exercise for my students who were wrestling with those
changes. I went back and watched it again to remember what I was doing
over the diminished and see that I was building on a thematic
development based almost entirely on chord tones over that section.
So I guess my advice is PRACTICE scales, patterns & arpeggios, but THINK
chords and phrasing.
--
Rick Stone
email: rick...@rickstone.com
website: www.rickstone.com
epk: www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
Other sites: www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
www.facebook.com/rickstonemusic www.reverbnation.com/rickstone
www.youtube.com/jazzand www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand jazzguitarny.ning.com
rlemos...@gmail.com
> On Nov 7, 5:49 pm, "rle...@calstatela.edu" <rlemosrle...@gmail.com>
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> That is an interesting concept in the context of soloing over those
> tunes you mentioned.
> An improvisatory genius like Tal Farlow was using the major pentatonic
> scale over the Idim7 chord in Nite & Day back in the 50s, and it
> sounds much more natural and flows better than using a dim7 arp or
> scale.
> to sound stilted, forced and unnatural, whereas the major pentatonic
> keeps the flow of the progression going.
> In all three songs you mentioned (plus the turnaround), it's the same
> progression- iiim7 biiidim7(or idim7) iim7 V7- and I've always felt
> uncomfortable about using the dim7 arp or scale in that situation. It
> sounds like something a cocktail pianist or rocker might do in that
> situation- cornball shit.
> I'm not sure what you mean by major pentatonic blues scale, though.
> Tal is using the major pentatonic scale: 1 2 3 5 6 8 (and the 2 might
> seem to be an avoid note) on the F#dim7. In other words: F G A C D F
> but by major pentatonic "blues" scale, do you mean something other
> than 1 2 3 5 6 8?
> Lee Konitz also uses this approach on "ATTYA", again back in the
> 50s.
> Are you saying the diminished scale should be limited to being used
> on only appropriate dominant 7th chords (e.g. B C# D E F G G# A# B on
> E7, G7, Bb7 or Db7)?
Hi Van,
First, I would like to recognize Rick Stone's video of Wave. What a
fantastic guitar player. I try to watch all of his stuff. He is so
musical and has chops I can only dream of. Also, a shout out to Joey
Goldstein. He is deserving of a "Most Valuable Player" award on this
newsgroup. His posts are always so instructive and thorough. He freely
shares so much of his extensive knowledge that I believe we all owe
him a huge debt of gratitude.
I am not on these guys level. I am an OK guitar player that loves all
things jazz guitar and enjoys playing standards. In order to be able
to play jazz gigs with musicians much better than myself, I developed
my "system" so that I could "sound" like I was better than I was. What
evolved for me was my pentatonic "system" where every chord has a
primary pentatonic scale and numerous secondary pentatonic scales to
choose from. The advantages of this "system" are that there are NO
avoid notes, all scales use the guitar-friendly two-notes-per-string
approach, and all scales are complementary to each other.
Once again, my book specifically addresses improvising over diminished
chords, without the diminished scale, in several chapters (I also
address the whole-tone scale). The February 2010 article in JUST JAZZ
GUITAR will go into a lot of detail on the suggested pentatonic scale
for the Idim7/bIIIdim7/bVdim7 chord and will provide notation and mp3
examples for the chord progressions to Night and Day (#IVm7b5 IVm7
IIIm7 bIIIdim7 IIm7 V7) and the jazz turnaround (Imaj7 Idim7 IIm7 V7).
To answer your question, yes, my Major Blues Pentatonic Scale is
different that the major pentatonic scale. At the risk of "giving
away" the punch line to the upcoming JJG article, try the following on
the progression from All The Things You Are--Dbmaj7 Dbm7 Cm7 Bdim7
Bbm7 Eb7 Abmaj7
Note the Bdim7. In my "system" this can be considered a Idim7 chord
since a Bdim7 chord is an inversion of a Abdim7 chord. This means I
would use the Ab Blues Pentatonic Scale to solo over it. In my book, I
show 5 modes for this scale which means there are five positions on
fretboard where you can play this (or any) pentatonic scale. If I were
soloing over this progression, I would probably be at the 8th fret. In
this position the notes for Ab Blues Pentatonic Scale would be (low
string to high string):
(6th string) B Eb; (5th string) F Ab; (4th string) Bb B; (3rd str) Eb
F; (2nd str) Ab Bb; (1st str) B Eb
Notice that the 5 notes of this Ab Blues Pentatonic Scale are: B Eb F
Ab Bb
Now, just forget all this theory. Try playing these notes over the
Bdim chord in the All The Things You Are progression above. I think
you will agree that there are NO avoid notes, the scale is easy to
play (very similar to the F minor pentatonic scale in that position)
and that it sounds good with the previous Cm7 chord and the following
Bbm7 chord.
Some other things you can note from all this:
-This scale is simply the F minor pentatonic scale with a b5 (B)
instead of a natural 5 (C)
-The F minor pentatonic scale will also work since it is enharmonic to
the Ab major scale which is key of song.
-The 6 note Ab major blues scale (or F minor blues scale) will also
work (Ab Bb B C Eb F)
I like the Ab Blues Pentatonic Scale, especially if I am using my
system on the other chords. However, the choice is yours.
Hope this helps.
Ron
Antal Abel
sweet thanks for the responses all.
Joey Goldstein
Sorry, but Eb is an avoid note on Bdim7.
If you want to modify Ab major pentatonic into a scale that fits Abdim7
with no avoid notes you'd need to flat the 5th also.
Eg. Ab Bb Cb Ebb(aka D) F Ab
> the scale is easy to
> play (very similar to the F minor pentatonic scale in that position)
> and that it sounds good with the previous Cm7 chord and the following
> Bbm7 chord.
>
> Some other things you can note from all this:
>
> -This scale is simply the F minor pentatonic scale with a b5 (B)
> instead of a natural 5 (C)
> -The F minor pentatonic scale will also work since it is enharmonic to
> the Ab major scale which is key of song.
> -The 6 note Ab major blues scale (or F minor blues scale) will also
> work (Ab Bb B C Eb F)
>
> I like the Ab Blues Pentatonic Scale, especially if I am using my
> system on the other chords. However, the choice is yours.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Ron
>
Steve Freides
> I was recently going over some Jobim tunes and have found that many of
> his songs use the bVi diminished.
>
> In minor key tunes he does it in O Grande Amor (Am, Abdim7, Gm, C7
> etc) and similarly in Corcovado.
> In major key tunes he does it in Wave (Dmaj, Bbdim7, Am, D7b9).
Is this the chord progression we're talking about:
http://www.kbnj.com/music/wave.tif
This is why I always think voice-leading is so important to consider -
just look at how smoothly the individual voices move. I'm trying to
make a point I often try to make, which is that some of these chords
represent some really cool movement of individual voices by small
amounts and that _that_ fact is as important or more important than
whatever chord they happen to spell. I think the second measure is, in
some way, just a chord to get you to the next chord. You could look at
the bass as a sub-V.
Yes, I could have spelled the top two voices of the second measure as Fb
and Abb, sorry, but part of me hears this as E min 7 flat 5, but the D
is made into a D flat because of what came before and what comes next.
Try not to jump on me all at once here, OK? :)
-S-
paul s
One "pentatonic" scale that works over the Bdim7 in All the Things
could be created by starting with the chord tones - B,D,F and Ab. If
you add the melody note (G) , you've got a five note "scale" with no
avoid notes. (I probably wouldn't want to restrict myself to this,
but it does fit the parameters being discussed).
Paul S
drthoma...@gmail.com
wrote:
>
> In
> this position the notes for Ab Blues Pentatonic Scale would be (low
> string to high string):
>
> (6th string) B Eb; (5th string) F Ab; (4th string) Bb B; (3rd str) Eb
> F; (2nd str) Ab Bb; (1st str) B Eb
>
> Notice that the 5 notes of this Ab Blues Pentatonic Scale are: B Eb F
> Ab Bb
It's been a long time since I read Levine, but isn't this what he
calls the minor 6th scale? This is an old sound going back to the
'30s. IMO it's much more useful in jazz than the regular blues box
pentatonics.
Joey Goldstein
>
> One "pentatonic" scale that works over the Bdim7 in All the Things
> could be created by starting with the chord tones - B,D,F and Ab. If
> you add the melody note (G) , you've got a five note "scale" with no
> avoid notes. (I probably wouldn't want to restrict myself to this,
> but it does fit the parameters being discussed).
>
> Paul S
Another thing to remember about about Idim7 chords and their inversions
is that scale degrees 6 7 1 2 are among the safest notes to play on the
chord and you'll have a diatonic melody rather than a melody with
chromatics.
Eg. On ATTYA, on Abdim7/B try using only the notes F G Ab and Bb.
There's another diatonic note that also fits the chord, scale degree 4.
But it tends to bit a bit more spicey than the other notes for some reason.
Still, someone with a mind towards working with 5-note scales with no
avoid notes might use F G Ab Bb Db on this chord in ATTYA.
I guess you could look at it as being a Bbm7 arp plus the 6th.
Joey Goldstein
Right. 1 2 b3 5 6 is sometimes called the min6 pentatonic scale, but
some folks call it and 1 b3 4 5 b7 both just "minor pentatonic".
No matter what you call it, it's not a great scale to play on this chord.
Joey Goldstein
> paul s wrote:
>>
>> One "pentatonic" scale that works over the Bdim7 in All the Things
>> could be created by starting with the chord tones - B,D,F and Ab. If
>> you add the melody note (G) , you've got a five note "scale" with no
>> avoid notes. (I probably wouldn't want to restrict myself to this,
>> but it does fit the parameters being discussed).
>>
>> Paul S
>
> Another thing to remember about about Idim7 chords and their inversions
> is that scale degrees 6 7 1 2 are among the safest notes to play on the
> chord and you'll have a diatonic melody rather than a melody with
> chromatics.
>
> Eg. On ATTYA, on Abdim7/B try using only the notes F G Ab and Bb.
>
> There's another diatonic note that also fits the chord, scale degree 4.
> But it tends to bit a bit more spicey than the other notes for some reason.
> Still, someone with a mind towards working with 5-note scales with no
> avoid notes might use F G Ab Bb Db on this chord in ATTYA.
> I guess you could look at it as being a Bbm7 arp plus the 6th.
>
And, of course, if you want pent scales with no avoid notes on dim7
chords, you can simply play the whole-half dim scale and omit 2 notes.
Ab Bb Db F G 100% diatonic
Ab Bb B D F one non-chord-tone, which is diatonic
Ab B Db D F one non-chord-tone, which is diatonic
Ab B D F G one non-chord-tone, which is diatonic
Ab B D F G two non-chord-tones, which are diatonic
Ab B Db D G two non-chord-tones, which are diatonic
Ab Bb B D G two non-chord-tones, which are diatonic
Ab Bb B Db D two non-chord-tones, which are diatonic
Ab B Db F G two non-chord-tones, which are diatonic
Ab Bb B F G two non-chord-tones, which are diatonic
Ab Bb B Db F two non-chord-tones, which are diatonic
B Db D F G two non-chord-tones, which are diatonic
Bb Db D F G two non-chord-tones, which are diatonic
Ab Bb B Db G three ncts, which are diatonic
Ab Bb Db D G three ncts, which are diatonic
Ab Bb Db F G three ncts, which are diatonic
Ab B D E F one nct, which is chromatic
Etc.