Problems with staying in tune!
danny
Lately, I've begun to feel like I can't play more than a few tunes without
going out of tune. My insecurity is so great taht I now keep a tuner in line
on my pedal board.
Thinking the boy's neurotic? Well, the problem continues to naw as, my band
mates also think my guitars are not holding the tuning.. UGH..
So I've searched for commonalities.. Korean made Samick and a Brian Moore...
my Custom 22 PRS seems rock solid.
Could it be: country of origin, woods, machine heads, strings D'addarrio 9s
and 10s.. Aggressive playing style... variety of venues...
inside/outside/AC/open to the elements????
So what do you think, and how do you cope?
danny
Sam Benson
<snip>
> My insecurity is so great taht I now keep a tuner in line
> on my pedal board.
Not a bad thing
>
> Thinking the boy's neurotic? Well, the problem continues to naw as, my
band
> mates also think my guitars are not holding the tuning.. UGH..So I've
searched for commonalities.. Korean made Samick and a Brian Moore...my
Custom 22 PRS seems rock solid.
<snip>
> So what do you think, and how do you cope?
> danny
I'm gonna guess the guitars with the .009's are worse. IMO, 10's and 11's
don't stretch as much, and all my experience with 9's was to retune,
retune,retune. You may ( probably ) have a problem tuning to the nut, when
in actuality, you should be tuning to the tuner keys. That is, the string
should be free to pass through the nut as you bend/stretch the strings or
use the trem. Widening ( NOT deepening ) the nut at each string won't hurt,
and try using something like white grease from Radio Shack on each
nut/string juncture. This lets the string pass through freely. You ARE
tuning from bridge to tuner, not to the nut. ALWAYS keep this in mind. One
strat site from years ago mentioned the importance of letting those strings
pass freely. If the guitar is setup properly, if it goes out of tune, a
couple of presses on the whammy bar should retune the guitar.
Lastly, set the relief for your truss rod. If the truss rod is not tight
enough, your strings are working against the strength of the wood. This
should NEVER be the case. The truss rod/string tension adjustment is what
makes the guitar rock solid or spaghetti like. Common sense in what you do
won't hurt a bit either, best to you...
Sam
Tony
1. What type of guitar do you have ? Tremolos will draft with
usage, but once the strings are strenched out they should
pretty much stay in tune. A trick I use is file down the nut
where the strings go thru so they don't bind, then add some lead from
a #2 pencil .
2. My fixed bridge guitars (tele, Gibson LP and SG) stay in
tune for quite along time even with heavy playing.
When I change strings, I loop the end of the string back through
the hole in the in post , kind of like a half knot. When I tune up,
I get the slack out of the strings by aggressfully bending the
strings
as full as possible. Sometimes the guitar will drop as much as a
full note or more during this exercise.
If your playing quiet music, I can certainly understand how
a sour tuning may be heard, but for electric, you would have to
pretty bad out of tune , or playing in the wrong key
to be extremely noticeable (IMO).
I heard once that it would take a team of mules
to apply enough stress to have tuner keys slip,
so your problems are generally dues to strings IMO.
I use Super Slinkys 09 ;) They work good for me.
Or else you mates are a pain in the ass ;) ...
Greg Cisko
news:OOidneiQs9U...@comcast.com...
> Hi all,
>
> Lately, I've begun to feel like I can't play more than a few tunes without
> going out of tune. My insecurity is so great taht I now keep a tuner in
> line
> on my pedal board.
>
> Thinking the boy's neurotic? Well, the problem continues to naw as, my
> band
> mates also think my guitars are not holding the tuning.. UGH..
Old strings will sound out of tune even when they are technically in
tune. That is one way to know to change them. If you play allot, you
may have to change them every other week.
--
Steven Johnson
to 10's and had problems with tuning. Brought it to my local shop, and the
tech re-filed the nut and added some "Nut Sauce" I think it was called (Kind
of a thick graphite paste). Problem solved.
I also use a tuner in-line...serves 2 purposes. #1: Tuning (Duh....lol) and
#2: Mute for switching from electric to acoustic guitar through my Bandit II
(I KNOW, I know....sacrilege to play an acoustic guitar thru an electric
amp...but hey, it works for us-lol)
Strings- D'Addario 10's. Been using them for almost 18 years now.
Everything else goes dead in a couple weeks for me.
--
"The road less traveled has 22 frets."
-Ted Nugent
"danny" <dem...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:OOidneiQs9U...@comcast.com...
Phil S
variety of things and the geometry is more complex than meets the eye. Home
setup work is not recommended and I wouldn't be surprised if some of it is
counter-intuitive. If you do any filing, you run the risk of increasing the
cost of a pro setup.
I'm a natural-born tinkerer and am disinclined to pay anyone to do anything.
Other than a minor bridge adjustment, I always pay someone for this work.
As others have already pointed out, it is likely that the strings are
binding in the nut. I wouldn't look to fix that myself. It works best when
it's just right, not too loose and not too tight. It's best done by a pro
who's got both experience and the right set of tools.
Lord Valve
danny wrote:
> So what do you think,
It's only guitar. Turn it up, nobody will notice.
> and how do you cope?
By playing the Hammond Organ. It never goes out of tune.
Lord Valve
Ivory Smasher
Joey Goldstein
I think you're right. Guitars don't stay in tune very long at all. There
are too many variables. Only rarely will you find a guitar that does
stay *relatively* in tune for any significant length of time. And even
it will need tweaking from tune to tune. Keeping an electronic tuner
in-line is your best bet.
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Rich Koerner
Lord Valve wrote:
>
> danny wrote:
>
> > So what do you think,
>
> It's only guitar. Turn it up, nobody will notice.
>
> > and how do you cope?
>
> By playing the Hammond Organ. It never goes out of tune.
My Magic 8 ball just knew you were going to say dat.
Regards,
Rich Koerner,
Time Electronics.
http://www.timeelect.com
Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering,
Music & Studio Production,
Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
LarryV
string lead and bring it towards the center of the headstock, and then
under the string. Then bend it back over the string so it makes a u
shaped loop over the string. This locks the string in place when you
tune it to pitch. Works great. It's kind of hard to explain.
Mo wrote:
> > Lately, I've begun to feel like I can't play more than a few tunes
> > without going out of tune. My insecurity is so great taht I now keep a
> > tuner in line on my pedal board.
>
> Ah yeah, there's my phobia...glad to see I'm not the only one!
>
> I've become kind of paranoid about this one--I have a pedal tuner, but I
> also mod my guitars -- string saver saddles (also because I break
> strings), lubed nut (or graph tech, but I even lube them), and
> especially ==LOCKING TUNERS.
>
> There's a HUGE advantage with lockers-- no winding. As someone else
> pointed out, you really have to tug hard to get a tuner to unwind. On
> the other hand, you have to be really really good at winding your
> strings so that they won't slip, and even then, if you use a vibrato or
> do a lot of bending, you're still loosening and tightening the windings.
> So of course they'll slip.
>
> On the other hand, with locking tuners there's no winding, the string is
> straight from tuner to saddle.
>
> But here's something you should consider: are you sure the other guys
> are in tune?
>
> When I started playing guitar with my band, they'd all make faces at me
> for being out of tune all the time...which is what set off my
> paranoia... I have three guitars, same story with each one, they just
> sounded off...
>
> Turns out, it was the other (lead) guitarist --he was ALWAYS out of tune
> because he was using some cheapshit tuner from the 1980s...boy was I
> PISSED.
>
> Oh yeah, and this guy is even worse-- I've caught him tuning up DURING
> SONGS while we're doing a set! And it's not because he's playing a cheap
> guitar, he's got himself a whang-dang Les Paul...but at least he got a
> new tuner, he's in tune most of the time.
>
> Anyway, it's not just him, the acoustic guy is also using a cheapass
> tuner (refuses to switch)...but at least with him it's not such a big
> deal, since he's low in the mix.
Max Leggett
>When I restring, I run the string through the tuner post, then take the
>string lead and bring it towards the center of the headstock, and then
>under the string. Then bend it back over the string so it makes a u
>shaped loop over the string. This locks the string in place when you
>tune it to pitch. Works great. It's kind of hard to explain.
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/Archtop/ArchtopString/atstring01.html
Works a treat. Zero slippage. Works great on nulon strings, too.
-------------------------------------------------------
Is it not strange that sheep's guts should hale
souls out of men's bodies?
Willie 'The Lion' Shakespeare
-------------------------------------------------------
wb
>
> So what do you think, and how do you cope?
>
Staying in tune is over rated IMO.
Do you think the greats: Jimi,
Keith (Reefer), Eric pranced
the great stages of the world
tied to a fucking tuner ?
I have a video of Jimi doing a
quick tune up on stage and eventually
he mubbles " close enough" ..
Join a orchestra if you wanta
stay in tune.
;) .
Actually .. Stretch you strings after
you put them on. Get the slack out.
Should last for a good 2 or so weeks
if you *play* enough. Old strings will
loose tuning IMO after awhile.
Joey Goldstein
Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
>
> I think you're right. Guitars don't stay in tune very long at all. There
> are too many variables. Only rarely will you find a guitar that does
> stay *relatively* in tune for any significant length of time. And even
> it will need tweaking from tune to tune. Keeping an electronic tuner
> in-line is your best bet.
Of course you should also be playing on a well constructed guitar that
is set up properly. But you'll still use a tuner in-line if you're smart.
How'd they do it in the old days, you might be asking?
Well, there's a whole lot of old live recordings out there with
out-of-tune guitars.
Greg Cisko
news:1121625168.0...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> When I restring, I run the string through the tuner post, then take the
> string lead and bring it towards the center of the headstock, and then
> under the string. Then bend it back over the string so it makes a u
> shaped loop over the string. This locks the string in place when you
> tune it to pitch. Works great. It's kind of hard to explain.
I agree it is hard to explain. But it sounds like it is the same way I do
it.
You do make sure you have enough slack so you wind some of the string
on the tuner after you make the bends right? My strings rarely go out
of tune until they are ready to be replaced (as I said earlier).
--
Greg Cisko
news:42daa552....@News.sprint.ca...
> On 17 Jul 2005 11:32:48 -0700, "LarryV" <lar...@rcn.com> wrote:
>
>>When I restring, I run the string through the tuner post, then take the
>>string lead and bring it towards the center of the headstock, and then
>>under the string. Then bend it back over the string so it makes a u
>>shaped loop over the string. This locks the string in place when you
>>tune it to pitch. Works great. It's kind of hard to explain.
>
> http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/Archtop/ArchtopString/atstring01.html
>
> Works a treat. Zero slippage. Works great on nulon strings, too.
That looks right, but as you do the bend, I make sure I have slack to
the string can wind on the tuner and make that knot super sight. Also
all of the windings help the string stay even when I do massive bends.
--
LarryV
tune nicely though, even through some aggressive playing.
But there's nothing wrong with leaving some slack either.
danny
are usually right... These folks play multiple instruments, sing and
arrange... BIG EARS... and they are over 40 with lots of time in the
business..
Maybe I need to be working Solfegio =)
danny
"Tony" <gwbdop...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1121608211.6...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
danny
d
"Greg Cisko" <gci...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:jf6dnfBX6ca...@comcast.com...
Greg Cisko
news:CFxCe.4002$0N2....@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> danny wrote:
>>
>> So what do you think, and how do you cope?
>>
>
> Staying in tune is over rated IMO.
>
> Do you think the greats: Jimi,
> Keith (Reefer), Eric pranced
> the great stages of the world
> tied to a fucking tuner ?
Nope. They would tune on the fly in the middle of a song. That
is why they are greats. They know what string is out and how
sharp or flat. I have seen one guy just strum all 6 strings at the
same time and tune them all up at the same time. It looked like
a circus trick at first. But he told me that is what 35 years owning
a music store will do for you ;-)
--
danny
danny
"wb" <dead...@spamme.com> wrote in message
news:CFxCe.4002$0N2....@tornado.texas.rr.com...
Greg Cisko
>I hate to think that will solve the problem, but if so, so be it!
If you have tried new strings and they still would not tune, then
take it in to a guitar luthier/repair and have them check it. As
other mentioned, the intonation may be off. If you never tried
new strings, I would think that would solve the problem for sure.
Or drasticly improve the situation.
Heavy Metal combat tip for the day : Oh and I am sure you
know this, but it is worth mentioning. When you tune, always
go flat, and then tune up to the correct pitch/note. Never tune
down to get the right pitch/note. That is bad 100% of the time
and will cause much binding of the nut. If you are starting sharp,
always tune below the cortrect pitch and tune up to the correct
pitch/note.
--
Rich Koerner
Nothing personal with my use of the word "You", in the following....
If all three of these guitars are doing the same thing, it's most likely USER ERROR and/or the lack
of understanding how things operate in the real world.
First, let's look at some of the suggestions thus far in this thread.
> Lastly, set the relief for your truss rod. If the truss rod is not tight
> enough, your strings are working against the strength of the wood. This
> should NEVER be the case. The truss rod/string tension adjustment is what
> makes the guitar rock solid or spaghetti like
Though, this point out nose to the truss rod, this is not quite correct.
Relief, is a string action thing, NOT a tuning thing.
However, to understand the effect of the whammy bar on the truss rod, do the following:
Get a friend to help you hold the guitar body down flat on a secure table.
Take the whammy bar and turn it around away from pointing to the neck.
While watching the headstock, pick up on the arm and dump the strings till the bridge hits.
Now, let the arm return to its normal position.
Keep repeating this.
Notice - How far the headstock moves up and down toward and away from the table. This is the neck
movement as the string tension is removed and returned to the neck. This will vary due to the
string gauge and the type of woods in use. REMEMBER, not all trees yield identical woods.
Note - ALL guitars necks will MOVE in response to the changes in string tension due to a whammy bar,
in spite of ANY truss rod setting. Proper or NOT, and truss rod or NOT.
If that neck RETURNS to that identical height measurement every time the whammy bar returns to its
NORMAL position, the neck is NOT an ISSUE to this tuning problem.
Many times I have made this measurement with the guitar strapped down on my Bridgeport with
precision height gauges. http://timeelect.com/bbf.htm
Next, while you were watching the neck go up and down, if you had no locking nut, you would have
also noticed the uncoiling of the strings on the tuning posts as the whammy bars was moved up and
down.
Here, exactly how the strings are cut and installed on the tuning post is a factor to holding pitch.
For example, http://timeelect.com/test/headst-1.jpg and http://timeelect.com/test/headst-2.jpg
This is how the .008 gauge strings look on my old pre-C strat. Which never give me a problem
holding pitch.
THEY DON'T SLIP on those tuning posts. AND,.... there are no tied knots, and are EQUAL to locking
gears.
If you have these STOCK OLD VINTAGE tuning gears on a guitar, switching to the locking tuning gears
are NOT going to help hold pitch any better than these old originals. The FUNCTION of both these
gears perform, is the same.
HOWEVER,..... NORMAL *backlash*, is common to ALL tuning gears. But, along with any *binding* in
the tuning gear in the headstock, is many times the CAUSE of a tuning problem with a tuning gear.
The combination of any binding that get in the way of *backlash*, will always cause a tuning
problem.
The test for binding in tuning gears is very easy. If you can FEEL any slop in the tuning know of
the tuning gear raising and lowering pitch, you have binding in the tuning gear system without
friction washers.
Friction washers are those little white things you see in the holes where the worm gear tuning shaft
comes out of the case in those RE-ISSUE vintage tuning gears you find on Fender and other guitars
today. Those teflon washers cause more tuning problems because they MASK any binding you could
FEEL. This is because without them, the tuning gear would FEEL loose, the owner would get the
mistaken impression that the tuning gear was not TIGHT enough, and because of this loose FEEL the
tuning gear would SLIP, and the guitar would go out of tune.
My old ORIGINAL pre-C tuners ARE loose and sloppy, and THAT is a good thing. I can FEEL any
binding, with a little Break Free gun oil cures in a heartbeat.
Now, if you happen to have Grover or Shaller tuning gears, just soak them and get the grease out of
them, add a little Break Free, loosen the end screws on the knobs without the friction washers, and
you are good to go.
You should not FEEL any PLAY in the knob raising and lowering pitch. That is the way it should be.
Next, is the string hangs up in the nut issue.
OK, let's look at this again.
http://timeelect.com/test/headst-1.jpg
Notice one string tree.
That string tree is pulling down INTO the net those two strings more THAN any of the others.
Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Notice no spacer under that string tree too.
So, just by the presence of this string tree on those two strings, if there was any string more
likely to hang up in the nut, it would be these two strings with the string tree HELPING to hang up
the string.
Right.
Then, why is it that the "G" string is MORE of a problem holding pitch?
The answer is found when you stop looking at the nut, and start looking at the string.
Here is another clue. Besides the "G" string giving a problem holding pitch, the "E" string also is
a problem string. What do both of these strings have in common.
Look again at http://timeelect.com/test/headst-1.jpg
Both, for each of their type, are the largest in diameter. Thus, for the smallest of tension
change, will yield the most pitch change.
There you go. It's a string thing, more than a nut thing.
Wanna test it out.
Tune to perfect A-440. Then give each tuning gear 1/4 turn in the same direction.
Which two strings shifted the most in pitch. Which, the least.
If the nut is cut RIGHT and the strings are SMOOTH what is there for the nut to grab.
Clean and change your strings before they get out of their window of practical usefulness.
You have enough information to get you started with the information you supplied.
There is more to this, but I don't have the time to cover everything.
Good luck.
Joey Goldstein
Greg Cisko wrote:
>
> "wb" <dead...@spamme.com> wrote in message
> news:CFxCe.4002$0N2....@tornado.texas.rr.com...
> > danny wrote:
> >>
> >> So what do you think, and how do you cope?
> >>
> >
> > Staying in tune is over rated IMO.
> >
> > Do you think the greats: Jimi,
> > Keith (Reefer), Eric pranced
> > the great stages of the world
> > tied to a fucking tuner ?
>
> Nope. They would tune on the fly in the middle of a song.
Sometimes, sure. But there are lots of live recordings of all 3 of those
guys where they're just plain out of tune. I'll bet that EC and KR use
tuners now when they play live and Hendrix would too if he was still
with us.
> That
> is why they are greats. They know what string is out and how
> sharp or flat. I have seen one guy just strum all 6 strings at the
> same time and tune them all up at the same time. It looked like
> a circus trick at first. But he told me that is what 35 years owning
> a music store will do for you ;-)
>
> --
>
> gci...@hotmail.com
>
> > I have a video of Jimi doing a
> > quick tune up on stage and eventually
> > he mubbles " close enough" ..
> >
> > Join a orchestra if you wanta
> > stay in tune.
> >
> > ;) .
> >
> > Actually .. Stretch you strings after
> > you put them on. Get the slack out.
> > Should last for a good 2 or so weeks
> > if you *play* enough. Old strings will
> > loose tuning IMO after awhile.
--
{
IBClasses = (
{
ACTIONS = {changedPreset = id;
done = id; };
CLASS = AppleFlurryPanelController;
LANGUAGE = ObjC;
OUTLETS = {
colorBtn =
id;
presetBtn = id;
speedSlider = id;
streamSlider = id;
thicknessSlider =
id;
};
SUPERCLASS = NSWindowController;
},
{CLASS = FirstResponder; LANGUAGE = ObjC; SUPERCLASS =
NSObject; },
{
CLASS = NSUpActionSlider;
LANGUAGE = ObjC;
OUTLETS = {fUpTarget = id; };
SUPERCLASS = NSSlider;
}
);
IBVersion = 1;
}
Rich Koerner
Joey Goldstein wrote:
>
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
> >
> >
> > I think you're right. Guitars don't stay in tune very long at all. There
> > are too many variables. Only rarely will you find a guitar that does
> > stay *relatively* in tune for any significant length of time. And even
> > it will need tweaking from tune to tune. Keeping an electronic tuner
> > in-line is your best bet.
>
> Of course you should also be playing on a well constructed guitar that
> is set up properly. But you'll still use a tuner in-line if you're smart.
>
> How'd they do it in the old days, you might be asking?
Pitch pipe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And,.... a good ear to know when it's in tune.
Ever wonder just how the horn sections in those R&B bands kept things in tune with the B3.
> Well, there's a whole lot of old live recordings out there with
> out-of-tune guitars.
And,.... I've also sat through a shit pile of bands at the club who tune up before they start, and
on the first tune, they are out of tune.
Reason, over played strings go SHARP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Answer - Don't over play your strings.
Or, OVER PLAY your strings when you TUNE on the TUNER, like you are going to PLAY the TUNE!!!!!!
LOL, get it.
wb
> tuners now when they play
Actually, they swap guitars every song now adays.
When I saw EC in San Antonio he broke string in the
middle of How to Love a Woman, and he kept
playing along waving the guitar tech away 'cause
he didn't want to swap.
Joey Goldstein
Rich Koerner wrote:
>
> Joey Goldstein wrote:
> >
> > Joey Goldstein wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I think you're right. Guitars don't stay in tune very long at all. There
> > > are too many variables. Only rarely will you find a guitar that does
> > > stay *relatively* in tune for any significant length of time. And even
> > > it will need tweaking from tune to tune. Keeping an electronic tuner
> > > in-line is your best bet.
> >
> > Of course you should also be playing on a well constructed guitar that
> > is set up properly. But you'll still use a tuner in-line if you're smart.
> >
> > How'd they do it in the old days, you might be asking?
>
> Pitch pipe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> And,.... a good ear to know when it's in tune.
>
> Ever wonder just how the horn sections in those R&B bands kept things in tune with the B3.
Sure, a pitch pipe or sim allows you to get one string perfectly in
tune, providing you have good ears and know what to listen for. From
that one string, if your guitar is set up properly and intonates
properly you can begin to get the other strings in tune.
But as you tighten one string you add tension to the neck thereby
loweing the pitch of any strings you've already tuned. If you loosen a
string you will cause the others to go sharp. To use the pitch pipe to
get the *whole* guitar in tune you'll need to tune all 6 strings a
minimum of 3 times.
A horn player only plays one note at a time and only has to tune one
instrument. Imagine a single guy playing 6 saxophones and trying to keep
them all in tune and you'll have a better analogy.
If you've got a well tuned guitar and you then play a tune chances are
that at the end of that tune 1 or more of your strings will be slightly
out of tune *no matter how good your guitar is or how well it is set
up*. Now it's easy enough to fix the tuning internally so that the
guitar strings are relatively in tune with each other. (Without a tuner
you'll have to make some noise on stage though.) But if you want all 6
strings to be in tune with A 440, and with the rest of the band, you'll
have to start again from scratch with something like a pitch pipe (which
still makes a lot of noise on stage BTW). Electronic tuners are simply
more efficient and more practical. They have made it so that we can all
be as in-tune as possible at all times on any gig. I tune up in the
middle of songs if I have to.
> > Well, there's a whole lot of old live recordings out there with
> > out-of-tune guitars.
>
> And,.... I've also sat through a shit pile of bands at the club who tune up before they start, and
> on the first tune, they are out of tune.
Then they don't know how to tune or how to play in tune once their
instruments are in tune.
> Reason, over played strings go SHARP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I re-intonate my strings after a few weeks of use. After a certain
amount of playing the string is too old and won't play in tune across
the fretboard no matter how the intonation saddle is set.
And in my experience old strings go flat, not sharp.
> Answer - Don't over play your strings.
Yes, using fresh strings is a good thing usually.
But there is a style of jazz playing where a real dark sound is
desireable and fresh strings can't get that sound as well.
> Or, OVER PLAY your strings when you TUNE on the TUNER, like you are going to PLAY the TUNE!!!!!!
It's a good idea to stretch out your strings before you tune, if that's
what you mean.
If your style involves bending notes then it is a good idea, with new
strings, to bend at least once at each fret on the 3 unwound strings.
Bending puts a little bit of a notch at the fret position. If that notch
forms in the middle of a tune the string will go a little bit flat. It
reduces the life-span of the string to pre-notch like this but they will
stay in tune better.
And oh...If you're using a whammy bar and it's not a well setup Floyd
Rose system (or sim with locking nut) don't expect you guitar to stay
very close to in-tune after using it. That's just wishful thinking. A
properly set up Floyd, although it may ruin your tone, is the only trem
system that comes close to staying in tune.
Disclaimer:
The above is simply my opinion, but it is based on about 30 years of
experience as a professional guitarist.
Joey Goldstein
wb wrote:
>
> >I'll bet that EC and KR use
> > tuners now when they play
>
> Actually, they swap guitars every song now adays.
And the tech keeps them in tune.
> When I saw EC in San Antonio he broke string in the
> middle of How to Love a Woman, and he kept
> playing along waving the guitar tech away 'cause
> he didn't want to swap.
Bless his heart. EC's a pro that's for sure.
Burnham Treezdown
>
>Turns out, it was the other (lead) guitarist --he was ALWAYS out of tune
>because he was using some cheapshit tuner from the 1980s...boy was I
>PISSED.
Some guys just always seem to bend their strings a little out of
clumsiness or bad technique so their picked notes go sharp, or their
vibrato 'averages out' sharp, or worse, they squeeze their chords
sharp. Guys who do this chronically are probably too tone deaf to be
playing guitar in the first place (no matter how cool or fast they
are). If they don't respond to tactful verbal suggestions then a
tuning fork, carefully driven deep into both ear canals will take care
of that issue for the sake of all involved. There is no other
solution.
frank
> Hi all,
>
> Lately, I've begun to feel like I can't play more than a few tunes without
> going out of tune. My insecurity is so great taht I now keep a tuner in line
> on my pedal board.
>
> Thinking the boy's neurotic? Well, the problem continues to naw as, my band
> mates also think my guitars are not holding the tuning.. UGH..
>
> So I've searched for commonalities.. Korean made Samick and a Brian Moore...
> my Custom 22 PRS seems rock solid.
>
> Could it be: country of origin, woods, machine heads, strings D'addarrio 9s
> and 10s.. Aggressive playing style... variety of venues...
> inside/outside/AC/open to the elements????
>
> So what do you think, and how do you cope?
>
> danny
Danny,
GraphTek nut might help, as well as either better tuners if you think
that's a problem, or better string wrap if you think that might be the
case. I've got a guitar with bi-flex trussrod and 2 carbon rods in the
neck, and PlanetWaves locking/trimming tuners with a Schaller fine-tuner
bridge and I can change strings, tune up, and play the rest of the night
in tune.
Frank
p.s. Mentioning locking tuners after citing possible string wrapping
problems certainly suggests a solution. You should be able to find
drop-in locking tuners for that axe selling for around $50 which along
with a smooth nut which prevents the string from hanging tuning up or down
and then suddenly releasing and equalizing the tension under playing
sending it out of tune. Otherwise, changes over time suggest a neck
instability which doesn't seem to be what you are describing.
glen
explain to them as gently as possible that they need to get the fuck
out of your band.
"Anyway, it's not just him, the acoustic guy is also using a cheapass
tuner (refuses to switch)...but at least with him it's not such a big
deal, since he's low in the mix. ",
well that's alright then, he's not in tune but at least he's
relatively quiet. ;))
Anyway what is this reliance on "cheap ass tuners" can't these people
take a note from the piano (or whatever ) and just tune up.
g
Joey Goldstein
Mo wrote:
>
> > Anyway what is this reliance on "cheap ass tuners" can't these people
> > take a note from the piano (or whatever ) and just tune up.
> >
> >
> You know, I suggested a couple of times that we all tune to the keyboard
> player...makes sense, right, since he can't change tuning all that easily
> (and he's got one of those digital Hammonds anyway)...
If you tune to a tuner then you should be in tune with the keyboard player.
But some keyboard players don't realize that their keyboards can be
de-tuned/tuned too. Sometimes there's a knob on the back of the
keyboard. Sometimes it's in software and he has to scroll through some
menus to get to the relevant parameter.
You'd be surprised how many good keyboard players don't know this. Makes
for a real lousy gig when it happens.
Now, if there's an acoustic piano in the band you'll have to tune to it,
sort of. If it's been tuned by a pro, to a 440, then you'll be close
enough when you use a tuner. If it's been a long time since it's been
tuned and it sounds out of tune then there's not much you can really do
tune yourself up to it very reliably anyways. So you're still better off
using a tuner, because, in general, an out of tune piano is out of tune
around the vicinity of A 440. You'll be as in tune as you can be,
relative to this piano, if you're at A 440.
> Fell on deaf ears...
>
> But I'm stuck with these guys...they're all in the family...but it's no big
> deal, we're not trying to be pro...
>
> I'm looking around for a second, more serious group...but I'm in no rush...
Stan Gosnell
news:OOidneiQs9U...@comcast.com:
> Lately, I've begun to feel like I can't play more than a few tunes
> without going out of tune. My insecurity is so great taht I now keep a
> tuner in line on my pedal board.
>
> Thinking the boy's neurotic? Well, the problem continues to naw as, my
> band mates also think my guitars are not holding the tuning.. UGH..
>
> So I've searched for commonalities.. Korean made Samick and a Brian
> Moore... my Custom 22 PRS seems rock solid.
>
> Could it be: country of origin, woods, machine heads, strings
> D'addarrio 9s and 10s.. Aggressive playing style... variety of
> venues... inside/outside/AC/open to the elements????
>
> So what do you think, and how do you cope?
Temperature changes will cause tuning changes rather quickly. The guitar
has to be at the stage temp, and have been played. I don't want to
belabor the obvious here. Strings and tuners are the next most likely
suspect.
--
Regards,
Stan
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." B. Franklin
Stan Gosnell
news:fetCe.177968$6g3....@tornado.texas.rr.com:
<snip>
> Widening ( NOT deepening ) the nut at
> each string won't hurt, and try using something like white grease from
> Radio Shack on each nut/string juncture. This lets the string pass
> through freely.
<snip>
I would never use grease on the nut. It *will* migrate down it and into
the wood around and underneath it. This cannot be stopped. Graphite is
the lubricant of choice here, if you really need it. A proper bone nut,
with the slots properly cut, doesn't need lube under normal conditions,
but the plastic nuts found on cheaper instruments may need it. Graph-
tech nuts were invented specifically for this purpose, providing their
own lubrication.
Rich Koerner
danny wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Lately, I've begun to feel like I can't play more than a few tunes without
> going out of tune. My insecurity is so great taht I now keep a tuner in line
> on my pedal board.
>
> Thinking the boy's neurotic? Well, the problem continues to naw as, my band
> mates also think my guitars are not holding the tuning.. UGH..
>
> So I've searched for commonalities.. Korean made Samick and a Brian Moore...
> my Custom 22 PRS seems rock solid.
>
> Could it be: country of origin, woods, machine heads, strings D'addarrio 9s
> and 10s.. Aggressive playing style... variety of venues...
> inside/outside/AC/open to the elements????
>
> So what do you think, and how do you cope?
>
> danny
http://timeelect.com/test/headst-1.jpg
Notice one string tree.
Right!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Right.
Wanna test it out.
Good luck.
sg...@hotmail.com
out of tune.
I tried to follow all the diagrams and directions, but I never could
get it exactly right.
Then last week, I took out a book from the library called "101 Tips
For Guitarists"
and for the first time, someone finally CLEARLY documented how to do it
correctly.
It's pretty much the way you described it, but I'm still not sure
if you should make a right angle bend in the string at first.
Anyway, I had a four hour outside gig Friday night and I decided to
use a Fender Squier that always goes out of tune no matter what you do,
cause I thought it was going to rain.
I put a new set of strings on using the above method of stringing,
and the Squier stayed perfectly in tune the entire night- a first for
that piece of shit.
Johnny Smith once wrote an article on this in GP years ago.
He said that guitarists would come to his store and tell him their
guitars were messed up because they would go out of tune, and 99% of
the time it would be that their method of stringing was poor.
Keep in mind that JS and Barry Galbraith never had guitar tuners
back then, and yet they never played out of tune on their hundreds of
recordings.
And we're not talking about music that only had 3 chords.
Eric Clapton is a special case, though.
He obviously has a superior set of ears for intonation because one of
the hallmarks of his style is that when he bends strings, it's always
perfectly in pitch.
But he still can't play jazz to save his life!
Stan Gosnell
news:1121645008....@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> I thought I knew how to do this correctly, but my guitars still went
> out of tune.
> I tried to follow all the diagrams and directions, but I never could
> get it exactly right.
> Then last week, I took out a book from the library called "101 Tips
> For Guitarists"
> and for the first time, someone finally CLEARLY documented how to do
> it correctly.
> It's pretty much the way you described it, but I'm still not sure
> if you should make a right angle bend in the string at first.
Bend it immediately. The bend helps hold everything in place, and as you
wind the knob, the string doesn't flop around and hit you in places you
don't want to be hit (or anyone or anything else), because it's pointing
more or less straight up. You still have to be careful, though,
obviously.
lbrt...@aol.com
> When I restring, I run the string through the tuner post, then take the
> string lead and bring it towards the center of the headstock, and then
> under the string. Then bend it back over the string so it makes a u
> shaped loop over the string. This locks the string in place when you
> tune it to pitch. Works great. It's kind of hard to explain.
'Tis the correct way, & the fact that Fender-style slotted capstans can
& do get away with other ways doesn't change it. Takes a little
judgment in fitting to avoid piling up too much string on the capstan &
causing it to ride up over the bulge with uneven results in rotation.
On heavily strung/high tension axes I intentionally wind the first up
turn over the bulge then lead it below for succeeding turns, to
securely hold the higher tension. The advantage of the Fender slotted
capstans was faster string changing in onstage emergencies, once common
& more seldom done or needed in today's performance styles/ways.
lbrt...@aol.com
> So what do you think, and how do you cope?
It's only your inexperience in stringing & tuning the instrument, and
knowing how your machines should feel & work. Lockers aren't needed &
setup issues are separate.
Sam Benson
"Rich Koerner" <ri...@timeelect.com> wrote in message
news:42DAFA4E...@timeelect.com...
Granted, but a general check-up was all that was intended. If Danny
checked the string gap roughly halfway between a capoed first fret and
depressed 20th fret or so, and found more than, what .003 ? It would tell
him to tighten the truss rod up a bit until it came into the equation. If
it's out say .005 or .006, the wood of the neck is holding more of the
string load and becomes unstable, or in other words, causes a guitar to tune
like caca. Period.
Loose the .009's, widen ( not deepen ) the nut gaps, and lube the l'li
suckers for easy sliding. Doing the string over at the tuner may help, but
after 38 years, I haven't needed it. May not cure all his ills, but it won't
hurt either.
Sam Benson
lbrt...@aol.com
> Granted, but a general check-up was all that was intended. If Danny
> checked the string gap roughly halfway between a capoed first fret and
> depressed 20th fret or so, and found more than, what .003 ? It would tell
> him to tighten the truss rod up a bit until it came into the equation. If
> it's out say .005 or .006, the wood of the neck is holding more of the
> string load and becomes unstable, or in other words, causes a guitar to tune
> like caca. Period.
> Loose the .009's, widen ( not deepen ) the nut gaps, and lube the l'li
> suckers for easy sliding. Doing the string over at the tuner may help, but
> after 38 years, I haven't needed it. May not cure all his ills, but it won't
> hurt either.
This whole post is utter bull shit.
Peter Huggins
Love a Woman, and he kept playing along waving the guitar tech away
'cause he didn't want to swap. <<<
Did you mean, "Have You Ever Loved A Woman", the Freddie King song ?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
" We had a knob, and all we had to do was turn it." - Les Paul
Grins, Peter
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/THISISTHE
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/unfinished3
http://community.webtv.net/guitarmaniax/KAYDELUXEELTROVADOR
Kurt Shapiro
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:42DAC6DE...@nowhere.net...
Dave Curtis
<detr...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> and how do you cope?
>
>By playing the Hammond Organ. It never goes out of tune.
Unless you're gigging on a cruise ship with funky
power...
;o)
-Dave
Kurt Shapiro
tech has a tendency to cut the slots a little thin with the idea that it's
better to save some room for future cuts and that the strings will wear it
down. I always have to tell him to go wide; I'd rather replace the nut at
some point than have it catch there in the meantime.
Also, if you get your nut cut for a particular gauge of string and then put
a wider string in later, it may catch there. I also use this stuff you buy
in Banjo Center made by GHS -- You put it in the nut slots. I think there's
this stuff called Nut Sauce that does essentially the same thing. I used to
use powdered graphite, but it's messy and the other stuff works better.
I think tuning's an an issue I think we all struggle with as guitarists.
It's one of the crappy things about the instrument. I always bitch to
upright players that at least for them if one string goes a little out of
tune the whole damn fingerboard doesn't go to hell. It's a problem with
fretted instruments: When a string goes out of tune, all the notes along
that string go out of tune too. OTOH, wind and brass players have the same
problem. The difference for them is that they don't play polyphonically;
so, essentially, they only have to keep one "string" (or reed or mouthpiece)
in tune. We have six.
On top of proper maintenance and setup, we have the whole finger pressure
thing too. It's a bitch.
"danny" <dem...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:OOidneiQs9U...@comcast.com...
Stephen Cowell
"Dave Curtis" <dbaudiot...@adelphia.net> wrote in message news:vaamd11ikibp897uc...@4ax.com...
Push the Start switch while playing and watch it
go out of tune.
__
Steve
.
Stephen Cowell
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:42DAC632...@nowhere.net...
...
> And oh...If you're using a whammy bar and it's not a well setup Floyd
> Rose system (or sim with locking nut) don't expect you guitar to stay
> very close to in-tune after using it. That's just wishful thinking. A
> properly set up Floyd, although it may ruin your tone, is the only trem
> system that comes close to staying in tune.
Once you learn how to use a trem, you don't have
to have a full locking system... I'm living proof.
Good strings, stretched in right, locking tuners.
Properly set-up classic Strat bridge, six screws.
Full-floating, push and pull. Bone nut, pencil lead.
No problems.
__
Steve
.
Joey Goldstein
Sure. <g>
Rich Koerner
Just the same, everything you have mentioned, will not become a consideration for he tuning problems
caused by having a floating tremolo system.
With respect to necks and truss rods, it is by the COMPRESSION of the wood, with its holding form
under this compression, with either a straight or pre stressed truss rod, that the truss rod
functions.
Because of the limits governed by the wood itself to hold form under the required compression to
yield a straight neck, most of today's necks can't keep straightness with anything over 10 ga
strings on it.
The cheaper woods are too soft to hold form under the required truss rod forces.
In any case, all this is not a factor in a floating bridge guitar holding pitch.
The manner of which the neck is attached to the body of the guitar is of far greater import, than
any consideration given to the neck's straightness.
Rich Koerner
You know the group Deep Purple.
That cat had a whammy bar on that B3.
Sure pissed on a Floyd too.
Guitar players should learn to never piss off the B3 player.
Mike C.
professional and has good ears, probably mostly from play for so many
years.
Stephen Cowell
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:42DB38D4...@nowhere.net...
Surfin' with the Alien. No Problems. Period.
__
Steve
.
juru...@aol.com
Put it on C3 and high rotation with all the drawbars out and it's noise
and not in tune with anything.
. But turn it up, and no one will notice where you actually put your
fingers or how many you use. If you have to play a hammond and can't
play a piano you might as well run the wind machine.
And I've worked with some actual musicians who had to play hammond to
earn a living, and they found ways to vary pitches with the tone
generators before there were pitch bending synths. They could even
pitch the entire instrument up, but not an entire semitone.
Clif Kuplen
Burnham Treezdown
wrote:
>
>You know the group Deep Purple.
>
>That cat had a whammy bar on that B3.
>
>Sure pissed on a Floyd too.
>
>Guitar players should learn to never piss off the B3 player.
Or bend over to adjust a pedal in front of him either.
Guncho
danny wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Lately, I've begun to feel like I can't play more than a few tunes without
> going out of tune. My insecurity is so great taht I now keep a tuner in line
> on my pedal board.
>
> Thinking the boy's neurotic? Well, the problem continues to naw as, my band
> mates also think my guitars are not holding the tuning.. UGH..
>
> So I've searched for commonalities.. Korean made Samick and a Brian Moore...
> my Custom 22 PRS seems rock solid.
>
> Could it be: country of origin, woods, machine heads, strings D'addarrio 9s
> and 10s.. Aggressive playing style... variety of venues...
> inside/outside/AC/open to the elements????
>
> So what do you think, and how do you cope?
>
> danny
If you have this problem with all your guitars than logic suggests the
problem is you.
Are you stretching the strings after you put them on?
Chris
Kurt Shapiro
Perhaps it's just another rumour or myth.
How do you know he doesn't?
"Mike C." <Funki...@MSN.com> wrote in message
news:1121690170.4...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
CompUser
> >
> > Once you learn how to use a trem, you don't have
> > to have a full locking system... I'm living proof.
> >
> > Good strings, stretched in right, locking tuners.
> > Properly set-up classic Strat bridge, six screws.
> > Full-floating, push and pull. Bone nut, pencil lead.
> >
> > No problems.
>
> Sure. <g>
>
I think Rich K will join Steve on this, if he
happens to come across it! :-P
Rich Koerner
Stephen Cowell wrote:
>
> "Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:42DAC632...@nowhere.net...
>
> ...
>
> > And oh...If you're using a whammy bar and it's not a well setup Floyd
> > Rose system (or sim with locking nut) don't expect you guitar to stay
> > very close to in-tune after using it. That's just wishful thinking. A
> > properly set up Floyd, although it may ruin your tone, is the only trem
> > system that comes close to staying in tune.
>
> Once you learn how to use a trem, you don't have
> to have a full locking system... I'm living proof.
>
> Good strings, stretched in right,
What is right.
> locking tuners.
Locking tuners can have all the problems any non locking tuner can have that will cause pitch
variations with a tremolo bridge.
That is:
Friction washers masking any binding.
Binding, resulting in loss of free play within the gears backlash.
The only cure locking gears offers, is a cure for user error in installing strings to the tuner's
string post.
> Properly set-up classic Strat bridge,
Detail the *properly* set-up classic strat bridge.
How is that done.
>six screws.
Offers what as a benefit.
> Full-floating, push and pull.
Don't they all do that.
> Bone nut, pencil lead.
Why not use some other material, such as glass, or highly polished hardened heat treated steel, for
example.
Why bone, which would offer more friction, which requires #2 pencil lead for the slip and slide.
> No problems.
I don't know about that.
Stephen Cowell
"Rich Koerner" <ri...@timeelect.com> wrote in message news:42DCD4D9...@timeelect.com...
>
>
> Stephen Cowell wrote:
> >
> > "Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:42DAC632...@nowhere.net...
> >
> > ...
> >
> > > And oh...If you're using a whammy bar and it's not a well setup Floyd
> > > Rose system (or sim with locking nut) don't expect you guitar to stay
> > > very close to in-tune after using it. That's just wishful thinking. A
> > > properly set up Floyd, although it may ruin your tone, is the only trem
> > > system that comes close to staying in tune.
> >
> > Once you learn how to use a trem, you don't have
> > to have a full locking system... I'm living proof.
Do you agree with my major premise, Rich?
> > Good strings, stretched in right,
>
> What is right.
If I told you, Rich... I'd hafta kill you... > )
Right is where they don't stretch in anymore...
and where they don't sound bad or break off
in your hand while stretching. Only experience
gets this... it's probably just a little more than
you'll ever bend the string.
> > locking tuners.
>
> Locking tuners can have all the problems any
> non locking tuner can have that will cause pitch
> variations with a tremolo bridge.
>
> That is:
>
> Friction washers masking any binding.
> Binding, resulting in loss of free play within the gears backlash.
>
> The only cure locking gears offers, is a cure for user
> error in installing strings to the tuner's
> string post.
Locking tuners allow you to have less than one
turn around the post... certainly you don't advocate
this with normal slotted posts? Locking tuners
are also God's gift to guitar techs... makes
string changes much easier.
> > Properly set-up classic Strat bridge,
>
> Detail the *properly* set-up classic strat bridge.
>
> How is that done.
You tell me your secret speaker dope, I'll
tell you how to set up a Strat bridge. : )
Clue: the front of the bridge is beveled.
Notice that, and you're halfway there.
> >six screws.
>
> Offers what as a benefit.
More physical connection to the
body, for one... more bearing
surface, more *distributed*
bearing surface. Plus, it's cheap!
New vintage AllParts bridge, $50.
I've tried the Mann knife-edge
6-screw... PITA, and not worth
the trouble.
> > Full-floating, push and pull.
>
> Don't they all do that.
Ask Eric Clapton and Stevie Vaughn.
> > Bone nut, pencil lead.
>
> Why not use some other material, such as glass,
> or highly polished hardened heat treated steel, for
> example.
> Why bone, which would offer more friction,
> which requires #2 pencil lead for the slip and slide.
Because that's what's on there... I've tried
brass, graphtech... always come back to
bone.
> > No problems.
>
> I don't know about that.
Just describing my setup, Rich... I've
done my own setups for 35 years
now. Half of it is how you play it...
once you learn the vagaries, you can
compensate for them to play in tune...
see my other post.
__
Steve
.
kjs
string through and just start winding? Also before I put the new
strings on, I take a towel and rub each string down individually and
remove all the residue from manufacturing. Then I wind them like LarryV
said. Then I give them all a few good strong tugs and keep bringing it
back to pitch until it sticks. Before I employeed this ritual, it was
fustrartion city and black fingers.
Joey Goldstein
Stephen Cowell wrote:
>
>
> Just describing my setup, Rich... I've
> done my own setups for 35 years
> now. Half of it is how you play it...
> once you learn the vagaries, you can
> compensate for them to play in tune...
> see my other post.
Ah. So the guitar does go out of tune. You just know how to play it when
it is out of tune so that it sounds OK. That's a whole different thing.
juru...@aol.com
is why they are greats.
Before tuners, everyone knew how to tune on the fly.
You hit a note and held it and adjusted it with the right hand. Just
remember which way to turn the string and you're good.
And change strings. For years I used the same brand of strings and
could restring and tune a guitar string just by tension without sound -
it seems difficult but it's not at all, just something you can get used
to after hundreds or perhaps thousands of times doing it.
If those people captioned are 'greats' whatever great means, most
popular, I guess, it's probably not because they can tune a guitar.
Clif Kuplen
Stephen Cowell
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:42DD199D...@nowhere.net...
>
>
> Stephen Cowell wrote:
> >
> >
> > Just describing my setup, Rich... I've
> > done my own setups for 35 years
> > now. Half of it is how you play it...
> > once you learn the vagaries, you can
> > compensate for them to play in tune...
> > see my other post.
>
> Ah. So the guitar does go out of tune. You just know how to play it when
> it is out of tune so that it sounds OK. That's a whole different thing.
No, you do the little things that bring it
back into tune... making it play in tune.
We're not talking pushing fingers down
harder, or otherwise... I'm talking about
knowing how to use the vib bar so that
the guitar stays in tune. If it was out of
tune, it wouldn't sound OK... unless you
started pulling strings, etc.
Big secret... vibrato hides tuning problems.
__
Steve
.
Rich Koerner
Stephen Cowell wrote:
>
> "Rich Koerner" <ri...@timeelect.com> wrote in message news:42DCD4D9...@timeelect.com...
> >
> >
> > Stephen Cowell wrote:
> > >
> > > "Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:42DAC632...@nowhere.net...
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > > And oh...If you're using a whammy bar and it's not a well setup Floyd
> > > > Rose system (or sim with locking nut) don't expect you guitar to stay
> > > > very close to in-tune after using it. That's just wishful thinking. A
> > > > properly set up Floyd, although it may ruin your tone, is the only trem
> > > > system that comes close to staying in tune.
> > >
> > > Once you learn how to use a trem, you don't have
> > > to have a full locking system... I'm living proof.
>
> Do you agree with my major premise, Rich?
I really don't know what exactly, what the devil in the details is, with respect to your premise.
Therefore, I can't agree.
> Once you learn how to use a trem, you don't have
> to have a full locking system...
Use, in what manner. Anyone can push it down and pull it up.
Then, there are those who wrote the book on what can be done with it, like Jimi did.
One day I'll record a clip just to let ya know how off the wall I am.
The radical bass 6 is coming.
> I'm living proof.
I could make the same statement, and be doing different things for different reasons.
> > > Good strings, stretched in right,
> >
> > What is right.
>
> If I told you, Rich... I'd hafta kill you... > )
>
> Right is where they don't stretch in anymore...
> and where they don't sound bad or break off
> in your hand while stretching. Only experience
> gets this... it's probably just a little more than
> you'll ever bend the string.
Oh, so you overly ABUSE the strings by the STRETCH the shit out of them method.
The super quick application of Metal Fatigue, which shortens string life, and kills high end
harmonics.
Me, I just slap 'em on, tune 'em up, and in 5 to 10 minutes, they just normally play themselves in.
That's it. No big deal.
BTW, I use Fender 150 .008 ga. strings. Standard set.
> > > locking tuners.
> >
> > Locking tuners can have all the problems any
> > non locking tuner can have that will cause pitch
> > variations with a tremolo bridge.
> >
> > That is:
> >
> > Friction washers masking any binding.
> > Binding, resulting in loss of free play within the gears backlash.
> >
> > The only cure locking gears offers, is a cure for user
> > error in installing strings to the tuner's
> > string post.
But you STILL have not eliminated any of the problems I sighted above, that live in BOTH styles of
tuning gears. THAT, is NOT, a step up in the tuning gear food chain.
> Locking tuners allow you to have less than one
> turn around the post... certainly you don't advocate
> this with normal slotted posts?
What, you blind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://timeelect.com/test/headst-1.jpg
And, do I have to remind you, those are .008 ga. strings on those tuning posts too.
> Locking tuners
> are also God's gift to guitar techs... makes
> string changes much easier.
No faster or easier than mine.
http://timeelect.com/test/headst-1.jpg
Oh, if I have to take a string off the tuner, and have to put it back on,..... mine are faster and
easier.
Go ahead. Wiggle out of that one.
> > > Properly set-up classic Strat bridge,
> >
> > Detail the *properly* set-up classic strat bridge.
> >
> > How is that done.
>
> You tell me your secret speaker dope, I'll
> tell you how to set up a Strat bridge. : )
>
> Clue: the front of the bridge is beveled.
> Notice that, and you're halfway there.
Would it interest you to know, my bridge doesn't touch the body, when I pull up, and do a dump with
it.
Imagine that.
> > >six screws.
> >
> > Offers what as a benefit.
>
> More physical connection to the
> body, for one... more bearing
> surface, more *distributed*
> bearing surface.
Are we talking a STRONGER, it well take more ABUSE context.
Or, are we talking, it's a better FOR *tone* context here.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> Plus, it's cheap!
> New vintage AllParts bridge, $50.
Typical cheap ass musician!!!!!!!!!!!!
Also looking for the cheap way out.
Like, every bargin, doesn't have it's PRICE.
Oh boy.......
> I've tried the Mann knife-edge
> 6-screw... PITA, and not worth
> the trouble.
Ever play with a Fender System III setup.
It shits all over a Floyd, Kahler, stock Fenders too.
I have one I got from Dan Smith to road test for him in 1987.
It's a great piece of engineering.
> > > Full-floating, push and pull.
> >
> > Don't they all do that.
>
> Ask Eric Clapton and Stevie Vaughn.
WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You are nuts asking me to talk to a dead man, and to one who's more dead than alive on the whammy
bar.
The metal guys of the 80's used it more than Eric Clapton.
GET REAL!!!!!!!!!!!!
EC couldn't touch Jimi in a whammy war with *stock* vintage strats if his life depended on it.
> > > Bone nut, pencil lead.
> >
> > Why not use some other material, such as glass,
> > or highly polished hardened heat treated steel, for
> > example.
> > Why bone, which would offer more friction,
> > which requires #2 pencil lead for the slip and slide.
>
> Because that's what's on there... I've tried
> brass, graphtech... always come back to
> bone.
Why don't you stop playing with the SOFT and porous materials.
Hint - you need more than a file, to finish the job, when you cut nut slots.
In there is the answer.
NOTE - Don't ask. It's in the same category as the speaker treatment.
<thinking>
But, I will give ya one more HINT.
90% of the nuts where strings are hanging up in a FENDER, are caused by 99% of the guitar techs not
knowing, they didn't complete the job. Because the obvious, escaped their
sight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have no idea just how big that freaking snake is that sits in front of you, and 99% of those
self-proclaimed guitar techs.
EVEN the FENDER TECHS, are freaking Clue Less about this oversight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's why, I won't have anything to do with a company that doesn't KNOW the devil in the details of
their own products!!!!!!!
<thinking>
Pedal steel guitars with their complex pedal systems that have higher magnitudes of FRICTION
within,..... really have no reputation for pitch problems like the strat type guitar has. Yet,
when you compare the two side by side. How is it that the Strat type guitar, with its almost
friction free system, has a high magnitude of tuning or pitch problems than the pedal steel guitar.
Why is that.
Is the fact they both use the same strings a consideration too.
Must be. Right.
<thinking>
Once you get to know some of the pedal steel systems, it's a snap to find the devil in the details
of the strat system.
OK, I'm done.
Ya got enough to figure it out.
nm...@wt.net
to have a full locking system... I'm living proof.
Me too... I don't lock my nut, and my bridge is not locked
either, although it is a sort of floyd type bridge. It uses
ball end strings, and the bridge has rollers. For the most
part, it's pretty dang stable, and believe me, I wank the
livin crap out of it. I can get all obtuse with the bar, and
go play a chord, and it will still sound pretty sweet. Like
you, I use all the usual "bar" tricks to bring it back in tune.
The only thing that causes mine to go out of tune is sometimes
the string catches in the nut groove. I've never even attempted
to do anything about it, including graphite, etc... I probably should
though. I just use the "whack" trick, to pop it loose, and bring it
back in tune. Many complain about the floyds, etc sucking tone.
But....I think it's all the locking that sucks tone, not the bridge
itself. My tone is pretty fat, and I think it's cuz I'm not locked.
I tested that eons ago on a strat...Big difference in tone, being
locked, or unlocked. Much fatter lows unlocked, but sometimes
the sustain on the high frets can be better when locked.
BTW....About tuning....I'm fairly convinced 94.7 % of all tuning
problems are from cockpit error, not the machines...
I've been reading all these posts, and not one person has asked
the guy how he actually tunes a geetar. IE: does he always tune
from flat to pitch? Test bend, and retune? etc, etc...Most problems
staying in tune are from not tuning from flat *every time*, and doing
a few test bends to make sure the string is secure. If you go sharp,
and do not tune back down flat, and then back up to pitch, it will
never stay in tune. ***ALWAYS TUNE FROM FLAT TO PITCH***
I also agree with one post I saw...Often, you will need to go back
two or even three times, to fine tweak, if you want it all perfect.
Adjusting one string does effect the others. But once you get them
all close, the effect lessens, being you fine tweak in smaller and
smaller amounts. My non trem geetar is a gibson, and it stays
in tune for days at a time, unless the temp changes alot.
A nut bind will be easy to spot, as it will make a "plink" sound,
as the string hangs, and then pops loose. Bad tuning will not do that.
You just fall flat on some strings... No noise is heard in that case.
MK
nm...@wt.net
> Don't they all do that.
Ask Eric Clapton and Stevie Vaughn.
SRV could only bend down. His bridge was set
on the wood, or blocked, whatever...He could not
bend up. Or usually anyway. Many that use floyds
do that, including me sometimes...IE: Van Halen's
is set on the wood, and he can't bend up much.
Myself, I recently brought mine up just a tad bit, and
set it on small washers. I can go up or down on mine now.
Fer the record, I think the best tone is with it on the wood,
although what I have now is pretty close to when I had it
on the wood. I think the locks suck more tone than the
bridge types, or placement...I know the locks suck the lows
in most cases.. I don't lock my present unit all.
MK
Stephen Cowell
"Rich Koerner" <ri...@timeelect.com> wrote in message news:42DDF692...@timeelect.com...
>
>
> Stephen Cowell wrote:
> >
> > "Rich Koerner" <ri...@timeelect.com> wrote in message news:42DCD4D9...@timeelect.com...
> > >
> > >
> > > Stephen Cowell wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message news:42DAC632...@nowhere.net...
> > > >
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > > And oh...If you're using a whammy bar and it's not a well setup Floyd
> > > > > Rose system (or sim with locking nut) don't expect you guitar to stay
> > > > > very close to in-tune after using it. That's just wishful thinking. A
> > > > > properly set up Floyd, although it may ruin your tone, is the only trem
> > > > > system that comes close to staying in tune.
> > > >
> > > > Once you learn how to use a trem, you don't have
> > > > to have a full locking system... I'm living proof.
> >
> > Do you agree with my major premise, Rich?
>
> I really don't know what exactly, what the
> devil in the details is, with respect to your premise.
>
> Therefore, I can't agree.
So you don't agree that proper use of the
classic trem obviates use of the full locker?
Then why the polemic?
> > Once you learn how to use a trem, you don't have
> > to have a full locking system...
>
> Use, in what manner. Anyone can
> push it down and pull it up.
But if you're aware that the nut can
bind, then you keep tuning with the
binding all one way... pat the bar,
like I've said many times. Then you
get the situation: pull the bar, out
of tune... push the bar, in tune.
At least then you have a known point
of origin wrt tuning... you can get
back to your original condition
easily.
> > I'm living proof.
>
> I could make the same statement, and be doing
> different things for different reasons.
Indeed you could... but you didn't. I did.
> > > > Good strings, stretched in right,
> > >
> > > What is right.
> >
> > If I told you, Rich... I'd hafta kill you... > )
> >
> > Right is where they don't stretch in anymore...
> > and where they don't sound bad or break off
> > in your hand while stretching. Only experience
> > gets this... it's probably just a little more than
> > you'll ever bend the string.
>
> Oh, so you overly ABUSE the strings by
> the STRETCH the shit out of them method.
Reading comprehension not a forte?
> The super quick application of Metal Fatigue,
> which shortens string life, and kills high end
> harmonics.
Again, reading not your strong point?
>
> Me, I just slap 'em on, tune 'em up, and in 5 to
> 10 minutes, they just normally play themselves in.
> That's it. No big deal.
> BTW, I use Fender 150 .008 ga. strings. Standard set.
Yes, we know what you use... spaghetti.
And whatever works for you is fine...
but you're not playing Satriani or Blackmore,
I'll bet.
> > > > locking tuners.
> > >
> > > Locking tuners can have all the problems any
> > > non locking tuner can have that will cause pitch
> > > variations with a tremolo bridge.
> > >
> > > That is:
> > >
> > > Friction washers masking any binding.
> > > Binding, resulting in loss of free play within the gears backlash.
> > >
> > > The only cure locking gears offers, is a cure for user
> > > error in installing strings to the tuner's
> > > string post.
>
> But you STILL have not eliminated any of the problems I sighted above, that live in BOTH styles of
> tuning gears. THAT, is NOT, a step up in the tuning gear food chain.
>
>
> > Locking tuners allow you to have less than one
> > turn around the post... certainly you don't advocate
> > this with normal slotted posts?
>
> What, you blind!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> http://timeelect.com/test/headst-1.jpg
>
> And, do I have to remind you, those are .008 ga. strings on those tuning posts too.
I think we can all see the multiple wraps on
the treble strings. I've had nothing but
problems with that setup... good for you
if you never take the guitar beyond the
stresses you do. I guarantee that your
axe would be out of tune in my hands...
and mine probably in yours. It's an
experience thing... I do my setup because
it works for me, and I know how to work
it.
> > Locking tuners
> > are also God's gift to guitar techs... makes
> > string changes much easier.
>
> No faster or easier than mine.
>
> http://timeelect.com/test/headst-1.jpg
>
> Oh, if I have to take a string off the tuner,
> and have to put it back on,..... mine are faster and
> easier.
>
> Go ahead. Wiggle out of that one.
As I said... slotteds don't work for me,
especially on the treble courses where
you have to have multiple turns on
the post.
> > > > Properly set-up classic Strat bridge,
> > >
> > > Detail the *properly* set-up classic strat bridge.
> > >
> > > How is that done.
> >
> > You tell me your secret speaker dope, I'll
> > tell you how to set up a Strat bridge. : )
> >
> > Clue: the front of the bridge is beveled.
> > Notice that, and you're halfway there.
>
> Would it interest you to know, my bridge
> doesn't touch the body, when I pull up, and do a dump with
> it.
>
> Imagine that.
OK, fine. Whatever. Couldn't care less
whether the bridge hits, or the block, or
whatever... I may abuse it, but I'm not
banging the rails regularly.
I realize that you're here selling setups...
you probably do a great setup.... I just
don't need your services at this time,
thank you.
> > > >six screws.
> > >
> > > Offers what as a benefit.
> >
> > More physical connection to the
> > body, for one... more bearing
> > surface, more *distributed*
> > bearing surface.
>
> Are we talking a STRONGER, it well take more ABUSE context.
>
> Or, are we talking, it's a better FOR *tone* context here.
>
>
> Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> http://timeelect.com/bbf.htm
Yes, we've all seen it multiple times. Just don't
require your services now, thank you.
> > Plus, it's cheap!
> > New vintage AllParts bridge, $50.
>
> Typical cheap ass musician!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Also looking for the cheap way out.
>
> Like, every bargin, doesn't have it's PRICE.
>
> Oh boy.......
Works for me... do you disagree that it
works for me? BTW, I drill out the bar
hole and use a 7/16" carriage bolt for
a vib bar... *that* has turned some
heads.
> > I've tried the Mann knife-edge
> > 6-screw... PITA, and not worth
> > the trouble.
>
> Ever play with a Fender System III setup.
> It shits all over a Floyd, Kahler, stock Fenders too.
> I have one I got from Dan Smith to road test for him in 1987.
> It's a great piece of engineering.
I absolutely *detest* locking nuts, and will
go to any lengths to avoid them. Did Hendrix
use a locking nut?
> > > > Full-floating, push and pull.
> > >
> > > Don't they all do that.
> >
> > Ask Eric Clapton and Stevie Vaughn.
>
> WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> You are nuts asking me to talk to a dead man,
> and to one who's more dead than alive on the whammy
> bar.
> The metal guys of the 80's used it more than Eric Clapton.
> GET REAL!!!!!!!!!!!!
> EC couldn't touch Jimi in a whammy war with *stock*
> vintage strats if his life depended on it.
Still... the given case disproves the assertion.
And Rich... I hate to tell you, but Jimi's dead,
too...
> > > > Bone nut, pencil lead.
> > >
> > > Why not use some other material, such as glass,
> > > or highly polished hardened heat treated steel, for
> > > example.
> > > Why bone, which would offer more friction,
> > > which requires #2 pencil lead for the slip and slide.
> >
> > Because that's what's on there... I've tried
> > brass, graphtech... always come back to
> > bone.
>
> Why don't you stop playing with the SOFT and porous materials.
> Hint - you need more than a file, to finish the job, when you cut nut slots.
> In there is the answer.
> NOTE - Don't ask. It's in the same category as the speaker treatment.
That's the difference... I'm not here selling
something, just sharing what works for me.
> But, I will give ya one more HINT.
> 90% of the nuts where strings are hanging up in a FENDER, are caused by 99% of the guitar techs not
> knowing, they didn't complete the job. Because the obvious, escaped their
> sight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> You have no idea just how big that freaking snake is that sits in front of you, and 99% of those
> self-proclaimed guitar techs.
> EVEN the FENDER TECHS, are freaking Clue Less about this oversight!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> That's why, I won't have anything to do with a company that doesn't KNOW the devil in the details of
> their own products!!!!!!!
> <thinking>
> Pedal steel guitars with their complex pedal systems that have higher magnitudes of FRICTION
> within,..... really have no reputation for pitch problems like the strat type guitar has. Yet,
> when you compare the two side by side. How is it that the Strat type guitar, with its almost
> friction free system, has a high magnitude of tuning or pitch problems than the pedal steel guitar.
> Why is that.
> Is the fact they both use the same strings a consideration too.
> Must be. Right.
> <thinking>
> Once you get to know some of the pedal steel systems, it's a snap to find the devil in the details
> of the strat system.
> OK, I'm done.
> Ya got enough to figure it out.
Thanks for all the useless arcana.. but there's nothing
full-floating about a pedal steel system... it's like a
Tremsetter on every string. I've been through
all the roller bridges... tone-suck city. If you don't polish
the nut grooves, they'll eventually polish themselves...
diamond dust or not. A porous nut can retain graphite
longer than a non-porous one. Ever sling up a pedal
steel around your neck?
What I do works for me... decades of cut-and-try
led me to where I am. Thank *god* I never tried
a locking nut... once that wood's gone, it's gone.
__
Steve
.
oasysco
As for going out of tune... I played an entire 4 hour band practice
last night w/out re-tuning after slapping a set of D'add chrome falts
(10's) on my P90 archtop for a po-rock cover band I'm in. And while it
may seem odd to use flats for such a cause,I have never, ever been so
impressed with a simple string change making such an impact on tuning.
Uusually, you can blame the tuners or more nefariously, the neck pocket
construction, but to be able to fix a problem with a set of strings?
Yeah, babbeee, I'm in.
I also have a digital tuner on my MFX box when needed.
Greg
The VG&L Railroad
...
> Heavy Metal combat tip for the day : Oh and I am sure you
> know this, but it is worth mentioning. When you tune, always
> go flat, and then tune up to the correct pitch/note. Never tune
> down to get the right pitch/note. That is bad 100% of the time
> and will cause much binding of the nut. If you are starting sharp,
> always tune below the cortrect pitch and tune up to the correct
> pitch/note.
It's depressing how many articles, notes,
and what not on tuning fail to mention
this. In my book, it's Tuning Rule #1.