Jordu bridge

[lukejazz]

Hi Gang -

I've been looking at the tune "Jordu" and was wondering if anyone had any tips for dealing with the bridge which is two, 4 measure sequences of quick changing (every two beats) of "cycle 5". So basically

G7 C7 | F7 Bb7 | Eb7 Ab7 | Db
Then again a step lower:
F7 C7 | Bb7 Eb7 | Ab7 Db7 | G

These fly by pretty quickly, and I've started working out guide tone lines and arpeggio patterns that descend every measure. While that will do the trick of getting me through that section it doesn't seem all that musically interesting because of the repetition. Also it just occurred to me that that's the tactic of the melody too. A melodic line that repeats a step lower each measure.

Just wondering if anyone else who might be familiar with this tune would have any insights. I really dig the tune and the feel of the whole thing but soloing over the bridge is giving me a bit of a hernia.

Luke

[Dave Mosick]

I have transcribed a bunch of classic solos on this tune...... guide tone lines

[thomas]

On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:08:46 AM UTC-4, lukejazz wrote:

I think you have to start with the conception that this part of the tune calls for melodic sequences that repeat in different harmonies. In other words, come up with a lick that connects the first two chords and keep repeating it on the subsequent chords.

And I agree that arpeggio licks that connect the guide tones are the way to start building the licks you need. Once you have four or five licks that you can play on the whole bridge, you can start mixing and matching them.

Eventually you will be able to improvise on the bridge without resorting to licks. But here's the paradox -- this tune seems to cry out for repeating sequenced licks on that bridge. That's how its constructed. That's what it wants to do.

[Gerry]

On 2012-08-22 14:08:46 +0000, lukejazz said:

> Hi Gang -
> I've been looking at the tune "Jordu" and was wondering if anyone had
> any tips for dealing with the bridge which is two, 4 measure sequences
> of quick changing (every two beats) of "cycle 5". So basically
>
> G7 C7 | F7 Bb7 | Eb7 Ab7 | Db
> Then again a step lower:
> F7 C7 | Bb7 Eb7 | Ab7 Db7 | G
>
> These fly by pretty quickly, and I've started working out guide tone
> lines and arpeggio patterns that descend every measure.

Agreed. That's why I have always worked hard on an approach to such
sequences that works in the opposite direction. I hate hearing someone
parade through the same lick, move down a 1/2 or whole step and then
repeat it again. I've always tried to go the opposite direction which
by it's nature forces me out of the repeato mode.

> While that will do the trick of getting me through that section it
> doesn't seem all that musically interesting because of the repetition.
> Also it just occurred to me that that's the tactic of the melody too. A
> melodic line that repeats a step lower each measure.
>
> Just wondering if anyone else who might be familiar with this tune
> would have any insights. I really dig the tune and the feel of the
> whole thing but soloing over the bridge is giving me a bit of a hernia.

It takes a little thinking and practice to develop contrary techniques,
but I recommend going the opposite way. If it is ascending, descend.
If it is descending, ascend.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

[TD]

On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:08:46 AM UTC-4, lukejazz wrote:

Treat each ist chord in the sequence as a bass note ( demote it's importance as a chord change; thinking as relegating it to a bass note) that is acting as a spring-board to the next dominant, as your **first study** and concentrate on covering the 2nd chord of each bar. Utilize the philosophy of point A must go to point B.

-TD

[Bill Williams]

On Wednesday, 22 August 2012 15:23:15 UTC+1, Dave Mosick wrote:
> I have transcribed a bunch of classic solos on this tune...... guide tone lines

Don't want to tip your hand here, Dave?

[pmfan57]

Or just stay in the same position as the chords either ascend or
descend. Martino has some examples in Linear Expressions in which the
progression goes up but you stay in a particular position.

[Gerry]

On 2012-08-23 03:47:29 +0000, pmfan57 said:

> Or just stay in the same position as the chords either ascend or
> descend. Martino has some examples in Linear Expressions in which the
> progression goes up but you stay in a particular position.

Sure--that too. As long as I'm avoiding playing the same lick changed
in pitch then I'm on track.

[van]

On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:08:46 AM UTC-4, lukejazz wrote:

When we used to play that tune in high school, we played it pretty slow, so I could go wild on the bridge (it probably didn't sound that good; mercifully, I don't have any of the tapes), but now I play it on Ralph Patt's backing tracks, and the tempo is too fast to play anything but one bar sequences. Two beat sequences are a little too predictable, and dull sounding.

[lukejazz]

Lots of good suggestions in here - thanks to all. I really appreciate it.

Luke

[ott...@hotmail.com]

On Wednesday, 22 August 2012 07:08:46 UTC-7, lukejazz wrote:
> Hi Gang - I've been looking at the tune "Jordu" and was wondering if anyone had any tips for dealing with the bridge which is two, 4 measure sequences of quick changing (every two beats) of "cycle 5". So basically G7 C7 | F7 Bb7 | Eb7 Ab7 | Db Then again a step lower: F7 C7 | Bb7 Eb7 | Ab7 Db7 | G

Hi Luke,
Your step lower changes are wrong, I presume it's just a typo?
Bg

[jimmybruno]

You guys make too much of this. YOu play through it like any other
tune. You solo with melodic lines and use your ear. Sure it can be
hard at first and much harder if you listen to all these approaches.
Not everything gets a special "approach" or category. Just blow
through the changes over and over and over. And if you have an ear it
becomes very easy. And if you don't have ears no amount of theory or
approaches or junk science is going to make you a player

[thomas]

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 5:24:02 PM UTC-4, jimmybruno wrote:
>
> You guys make too much of this. YOu play through it like any other
> tune. You solo with melodic lines and use your ear. Sure it can be
> hard at first and much harder if you listen to all these approaches.
> Not everything gets a special "approach" or category. Just blow
> through the changes over and over and over. And if you have an ear it
> becomes very easy. And if you don't have ears no amount of theory or
> approaches or junk science is going to make you a player

Some of the suggestions above are designed to help a guy develop his ear for this set of changes. Even Clifford Brown plays a bunch of sequential licks on this bridge.

[jimmybruno]

Can you play over a G7? and then a C7. Just do it quicker. It does
not have to be sequential . That get's tired after one pass. It's
called practice and listening. YOu have to have an ear or you are
lost as a musician. An ear means to be able to hear a l;ine through
the changes and be able to duplicate it on your instrument of choice.
That's called jazz

[jimmybruno]

It's the same set of changes rhythm changes bridge. It's one of the
most basic progressions in the literature

[thomas]

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 6:09:55 PM UTC-4, jimmybruno wrote:
>
> It's the same set of changes rhythm changes bridge. It's one of the
> most basic progressions in the literature

I think the sped-up harmonic rhythm makes it a lot more challenging for a beginner than rhythm changes. I agree that planned licks and sequences can get old fast (FWIW, even Clifford is repeating his licks on that bridge), but they can also function as training wheels to help develop an ear. Many beginners don't have a vocabulary for cycle of fifths changes at two beats per chord.

[TD]

Then a simple matter of practicing slow (or very slow), especially since Luke is no beginner. It is merely a cyclic movement (drawn directly off the Circle of Fifths).

One possible prerequesite to the bridge would be to simply practice blowing through the actual dominant cycle in all twelve keys. In 'key vogue' with Jordu, begin from G7 as: G7 C7 F7 Bb7 Eb7 Ab7 Db7 Gb7 B7 E7 A7 D7, G7. As JB says, "one of the most basic progressions in the literature."

Within the above cycle drawn upon, Duke J decided to change the Db7 chord quality to major (6), as was done with B7 to major (6). He gets to Bmaj6 via shifting off the cycle of V on to a parallel cycle of V via major third movement up to F7. Another keen observance of how the Cycle of V and Cycle of III interact, even if momentarily.

While the learner is at it he/she can put all major and then all minor voicings thru the same procedure. Think of the strands of ii V's akin to strands of DNA being kept alive by being housed in liquid nitrogen. Like DNA is to our life, such strands are the essence of jazz-playing-thru-changes-life. The panic simply comes from unfamiliarity of shedding through the cycle. It will be very rewarding. And since being alone at home to practice is a luxury, best to take advantage of slowness. And don't go in with the idea of "patterns" or "licks." Go in as if you are writing melodies through those changes, because that's where it's really at. The tricks and gimmicks will always be on the back burner. It is the law of point A to point B in full regalia.

-TD

[van]

I guess Clifford Brown had no ear, and couldn't play through one of the most basic progressions in jazz.; - )
Like I said, I could go nuts at a slower tempo, but at Ralph Patt's tempo, it just sounds too forced. I'm gonna try it tonight, anyway.
My entire practice routine is technique for an hour, and then blow on Ralph Patt's Backing Tracks on any tune over 300bpm (Cherokee-340, Secreted Love-340, ATTYA-300, I'll Dismember April-320, Limehouse Blues-340,etc..., and I don't play any sequences on any of those tunes, because very few tunes have a cycle of fifths chain for two beats (even ATTYA has a four beat chain), other than "Nice Work If You Can Get It".
After playing the fast tunes, the other stuff is cream.
I don't blow on any of those tunes unless I can play the melody perfectly, without any music. If you can't hear those changes (without looking at the Vanilla Book changes), you need to play with more keyboard players.
Without using any written music, the Backing Tracks are a good ear training, and practice tool.
Unlike more modern tracks- you can't play any wrong notes and get away with it.

[thomas]

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 8:24:28 PM UTC-4, van wrote:
>
> I guess Clifford Brown had no ear, and couldn't play through one of the most basic progressions in jazz.; - )
>

You said it so much better than me.

[Richard Whitehouse]

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 12:58:38 PM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:
> On Wednesday, 22 August 2012 07:08:46 UTC-7, lukejazz wrote: > Hi Gang - I've been looking at the tune "Jordu" and was wondering if anyone had any tips for dealing with the bridge which is two, 4 measure sequences of quick changing (every two beats) of "cycle 5". So basically G7 C7 | F7 Bb7 | Eb7 Ab7 | Db Then again a step lower: F7 C7 | Bb7 Eb7 | Ab7 Db7 | G Hi Luke, Your step lower changes are wrong, I presume it's just a typo? Bg

Yes, I thought so too. I think they should be: F Bb | Eb Ab | Db Gb | B

[jimmybruno]

On Aug 28, 9:15 pm, Richard Whitehouse <luncheonmeatb...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 12:58:38 PM UTC-4, (unknown) wrote:
> > On Wednesday, 22 August 2012 07:08:46 UTC-7, lukejazz wrote: > Hi Gang - I've been looking at the tune "Jordu" and was wondering if anyone had any tips for dealing with the bridge which is two, 4 measure sequences of quick changing (every two beats) of "cycle 5". So basically G7 C7 | F7 Bb7 | Eb7 Ab7 | Db Then again a step lower: F7 C7 | Bb7 Eb7 | Ab7 Db7 | G Hi Luke, Your step lower changes are wrong, I presume it's just a typo? Bg
>
> Yes, I thought so too.  I think they should be:  F Bb | Eb Ab | Db Gb | B

You guys are all hopelessly lost. Who said Clifford had no ear. I
haven't heard that solo in awhile but I would bet what you think are
sequences are not.

[thomas]

On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 9:35:52 AM UTC-4, jimmybruno wrote:
>
> You guys are all hopelessly lost.

It's the human condition.

> Who said Clifford had no ear.

No one said that, not seriously anyway.

> I haven't heard that solo in awhile but I would bet what you think are
> sequences are not.

You may be correct, but you're being condescending nonetheless.

Here's what I don't understand: your argument. If I read you correctly, you said that only ear development is necessary. But I have known a number of classical musicians with amazing ears -- solfege out the wazoo, playing back anything they hear -- but who can't play jazz or improvise. Why? Because they lack a jazz vocabulary. I think that having a good ear is not enough to become a competent jazz improviser.

Traditionally people learned to play jazz by copping tunes and licks by ear, and more ambitious musicians supplemented that by playing patterns and sequences. These methods combine ear training with vocabulary acquisition.

What I don't understand is why you are arguing (if I understand you correctly) that only an ear is necessary, and arguing against some common modes of vocabulary acquisition that were recommended above.

[jimmybruno]

Never said all you need is an ear. You also have to be able to play
your instrument. Classical guitar is a different instrument.
Solfeggio is a different part of the ear. With improv you have to
hear a line in your head and be able to play it. A lot different than
'what's that note"

IF you can ply through dom7ths you can play the bridge to Jordu.
Yeah, they go by fast but you don't have to go up and down each mixo
mode or whatever, but you have to mentally compose some line that goes
through the chords and not over each of them. That's the type of
hearing I am talking about. HOw do get that ear? Start listening to
what you are playing and stop analyzing it before you play it.

Music is sound not theory

[jimmybruno]

On Aug 29, 10:42 am, thomas <drthomasfbr...@gmail.com> wrote:

PS. I just listened to Jordu by Clifford. I was surprised that is
was not that fast

[Richard Whitehouse]

On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 9:35:52 AM UTC-4, jimmybruno wrote:

> You guys are all hopelessly lost.

That comment should not have been directed at me.

I was just responding to a post about the changes in the second half of the bridge. The original poster said they were F7 C7 | Bb7 Eb7 | Ab7 Db7 | G

Someone else said that was wrong, and I agreed, so I posted the correct changes for the 2nd half of the bridge: F7 Bb7 | Eb7 Ab7 | Db7 Gb7 | B .

As for how to play over those changes, I agree with your comments about treating it like any other tune, soloing with melodic lines, and using ears.

[jimmybruno]

On Aug 29, 10:53 am, Richard Whitehouse <luncheonmeatb...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

My comment was not directed at anyone specifically.

[TD]

I agree totally concerning classical players ( now watch them come piling in). As a matter of fact, I'd rather hang out with junkies. It is *absolutely* another part of the ear. Not only is the jazz player's ear a parallel factor, but within that factor is creativity; the ability to do much more with that ear. This takes cultivation and exposure. And as a possible common ground, if not a precisely common theory, repetition and exposure to tunes and progressions (to name a few healthy elements) is *repetition*. The Classical player practices a particular piece 'till doomsday and a jazz player practices tunes and blowing through progressions (Bud Powell would practice a single tune, inside an out, exclusively for a full day and beyond) well into infinity. And so, I see what you are trying to tell them. Many do not want to put the time into the repetition part and so, they opt for as many ancillary devices as possible. That in and of itself is actually more time consuming, as well as often all too ambiguous. It's an aural art, after all.

[jimmybruno]

Listen to Tony. He's been around the block a few times. Like you
Tony, I always feel I am wasting my time posting here. No one listens

[thomas]

On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 11:19:52 AM UTC-4, jimmybruno wrote:
>
> Listen to Tony. He's been around the block a few times.

Here is the crux: "Many do not want to put the time into the repetition part and so, they opt for as many ancillary devices as possible. That in and of itself is actually more time consuming, as well as often all too ambiguous. It's an aural art, after all."

I agree, and learned this the hard way, several decades ago.

> Like you
> Tony, I always feel I am wasting my time posting here. No one listens

Wrong.

[lukejazz]

Yes - sorry about that. I make a lot of mistakes. Seems to be a them throughout my life. Thanks for the head's up.

LUke

[lukejazz]

Not true JB - I'm definitely listening. Thanks for your help on this.
Luke

[lukejazz]

See - there are some more: "theme" not "them", Luke not LUke. ug - so aggravating.
Thanks everyone for your observations and suggestions. I've had time to try a few.
When we get into ruts, it's always good to get a fresh point of view. Even if we don't take all the advice, at least it can get us thinking in a new direction or set us back on track that we originally intended. It's always good to hear/see what others are saying. Sometimes those sources can lend credence to what we're already thinking.
Okay - just blabbering now - I'll shut up and get some practice in this evening on the Jordu bridge when I get home.
Luke


Luke

[charlieguitar]

On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 10:08:46 AM UTC-4, lukejazz wrote:
> Hi Gang -
>
>
>
> I've been looking at the tune "Jordu" and was wondering if anyone had any tips for dealing with the bridge which is two, 4 measure sequences of quick changing (every two beats) of "cycle 5". So basically
>
>
>
> G7 C7 | F7 Bb7 | Eb7 Ab7 | Db
>
> Then again a step lower:
>
> F7 C7 | Bb7 Eb7 | Ab7 Db7 | G
>
>
>

> These fly by pretty quickly, and I've started working out guide tone lines and arpeggio patterns that descend every measure. While that will do the trick of getting me through that section it doesn't seem all that musically interesting because of the repetition. Also it just occurred to me that that's the tactic of the melody too. A melodic line that repeats a step lower each measure.
>
>
>
> Just wondering if anyone else who might be familiar with this tune would have any insights. I really dig the tune and the feel of the whole thing but soloing over the bridge is giving me a bit of a hernia.
>
>
>
> Luke

Check out this version by Clifford and Max. Note that in only one short passage does Clifford run sequential patterns on the bridge the rest of the time he just runs the changes.Just listening without even doing a direct copy should give you plenty of ideas. Clifford's second chorus is astounding btw:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp1AVxKBsEc

Charlie

[Joey Goldstein]

On 8/22/12 10:08 AM, lukejazz wrote:
> Hi Gang -
>
> I've been looking at the tune "Jordu" and was wondering if anyone had any tips for dealing with the bridge which is two, 4 measure sequences of quick changing (every two beats) of "cycle 5". So basically
>
> G7 C7 | F7 Bb7 | Eb7 Ab7 | Db
> Then again a step lower:
> F7 C7 | Bb7 Eb7 | Ab7 Db7 | G
>
> These fly by pretty quickly, and I've started working out guide tone lines and arpeggio patterns that descend every measure. While that will do the trick of getting me through that section it doesn't seem all that musically interesting because of the repetition. Also it just occurred to me that that's the tactic of the melody too. A melodic line that repeats a step lower each measure.
>
> Just wondering if anyone else who might be familiar with this tune would have any insights. I really dig the tune and the feel of the whole thing but soloing over the bridge is giving me a bit of a hernia.
>
> Luke
>

As I read this through thread it amazes me how everyone here can be
saying the exact same thing yet be arguing with each other.
Sheesh.

Yeah, to play over this tune:
1. Try everything you can think of while listening for the things that
you like the sound of.
Then
2. Using all your musical skills, developed by doing all sorts of things
including your work on this tune, try to make some nice sounding
melodies when you're performing the tune.

My advice to beginners, pretty much universally, is to start with the 3
chord tones of the triads of each chord.
I.e. Learn to make melodies comprised of just 1 3 and 5 of each chord.
That will help your *ears* to get the sound of the essence of the
progression and will help your technique because you'll develop some
strategies for accessing those notes on the guitar fret-board.
Then add the 7ths of each chord - paying close attention to the way the
7ths tend to fall into the 3rds of the next chord.
Then learn to concentrate on both the 3rds and the 7ths of each chord
paying attention to the way 3rds morph into 7ths and visa versa as the
chords move from one to the other.

[The rest of my advice for novices is slightly less universal than the
above advice because if you've accomplished the above you're not really
a novice anymore and probably already have a pretty good handle on the
sound of this progression in your ear and already have some pretty good
ideas as to how to do #2 above.
But you might want to:
Start experimenting with the various possibilities for filling in the
spaces between the various chord tones with 2s (aka 9s), 4s (aka 11s),
and 6s (aka 13ths) learning which of these notes sound good when
accented and which should be normally relegated to passing tones or
notes of short duration.
If you've learned to hear the chord tones then filling in the
non-chord-tones can usually be done fairly intuitively, i.e. by ear.
You'll just know if the maj 9 sounds better to you than the b9 or the
#9, whether the P11 is more appropriate than the #11 and/or whether the
b13 is a better fit than the maj 13.
But on this chord progression it'll probably be fruitful to start with
maj 2nds, P11s and maj 13ths.
Eventually you'll probably find roles for the altered versions of each
of these notes as well, especially when used to target strong notes on
the next chord that's about to occur.
And you may find yourself hearing ways to use both the unaltered version
of a non-chord-tone and its altered version(s) all within the same phrase.]

And after all the experimenting is done, the idea, when performing, is
to hear it in your head before you play it.
Singing the stuff you've practised (as detailed above) can help you to
learn to *hear it* as opposed to just executing it on the guitar.
Singing the stuff you hear in your head w/o the guitar in your hands and
then figuring out how to play it on the guitar is another great thing to
work on because it is an exact analog to actual improvisation, except
for the time lag between hearing it and executing it, the goal then
being to reduce that time lag so that you can do it all in real time on
the guitar on the band stand.
And, of course, doing lots of lifting of other people's solos on this
tune and on other tunes and learning to play them on guitar will also
help develop your ears, your technique and your approach to improvising
on those same tunes as well as this one.
There is no single thing that you can practise that will automatically
make yo a good player.
It's all about balancing the various aspects of your approach.

It'll be interesting now to see what's worth arguing about in the above
advice.
lol

--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://home.primus.ca/~joegold/AudioClips/audio.htm>

[Gerry]

On 2012-08-29 17:26:45 +0000, lukejazz said:

>> Like you Tony, I always feel I am wasting my time posting here. No
>> one listens
>
> Not true JB - I'm definitely listening. Thanks for your help on this.

He doesn't really mean "listen", per se. He means *some* people
(probably a small minority) don't accept and believe everything he
says. That can be disheartening.
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

[jimmybruno]

Thanks Gerry.

[thomas]

On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:17:23 PM UTC-4, Gerry wrote:
>
> > Not true JB - I'm definitely listening. Thanks for your help on this.
>
>
>
> He doesn't really mean "listen", per se. He means *some* people
> (probably a small minority) don't accept and believe everything he
> says. That can be disheartening.

I don't think there's any significant disagreement. Just slightly different emphases mixed in with some communication breakdown.

[TD]

Since you are not a "beginner" at all ( I will not be posting to you with beginner teaching recommendations), as I stated in an earlier related post ( forgive me for repeating), I think it's a very fruitful endeavor to practice the ii V's through the Cycle of 5ths and applied ( the two other important chord qualites, major and minor, as well) to the remaining 11 keys. After even 'half-mastering' this one way of several (aside from just simply playing through the tune for at least 8 hours straight, if need be), blowing through Jordu will be much more a feat carried out with confidence. Try not to allow the crowded harmonic rhythm intimidate you, because no one is putting a gun to your head concerning how fast you absolutely "must" practice blowing through them.

As an aside, you might "take note" along the way and try to hear/think about each 2nd change in the ii V sequence as being a type of "hermaphrodite" chord change, that being simultaneously a point of resolution ( 'female') and secondary dominant (male). Problems often arise when the player falls prey to resolve while the show is still running. It's a type conciousness and it can be heard and thus realized.

-TD

[jimmybruno]

Great solo by Clifford. Lines going trough the changes and not up and
down the chords. That's the type of hearing I mean

[jimmybruno]

Learning to hear in phrases not each change by it self.

[thomas]

On Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:26:18 PM UTC-4, TD wrote:
>
> As an aside, you might "take note" along the way and try to hear/think about each 2nd change in the ii V sequence as being a type of "hermaphrodite" chord change, that being simultaneously a point of resolution ( 'female') and secondary dominant (male). Problems often arise when the player falls prey to resolve while the show is still running. It's a type conciousness and it can be heard and thus realized.
>

Cool idea. Thanks!

[lukejazz]

Hey thanks for the link! Really nice.

Luke

[lukejazz]

On Wednesday, August 22, 2012 9:08:46 AM UTC-5, lukejazz wrote:
> Hi Gang -
>
>
>
> I've been looking at the tune "Jordu" and was wondering if anyone had any tips for dealing with the bridge which is two, 4 measure sequences of quick changing (every two beats) of "cycle 5". So basically
>
>
>
> G7 C7 | F7 Bb7 | Eb7 Ab7 | Db
>
> Then again a step lower:
>
> F7 C7 | Bb7 Eb7 | Ab7 Db7 | G
>
>
>
> These fly by pretty quickly, and I've started working out guide tone lines and arpeggio patterns that descend every measure. While that will do the trick of getting me through that section it doesn't seem all that musically interesting because of the repetition. Also it just occurred to me that that's the tactic of the melody too. A melodic line that repeats a step lower each measure.
>
>
>
> Just wondering if anyone else who might be familiar with this tune would have any insights. I really dig the tune and the feel of the whole thing but soloing over the bridge is giving me a bit of a hernia.
>
>
>
> Luke

Thanks Joey -

hoo lawd ya'll just looked out my window at work and Isaac is startin' to "knock on my door". Gettin' a little wind and rain. Not to worry - hurricanes don't usually do too much by the time they get over into my territory. Got a little damage from Rita but that was an exception. Looking forward to getting outa here in a couple of hours and back to the house. They've closed the university where I teach guitar part time until Tuesday and other schools are closed tomorrow and friday. Some state services are closed too (medicaid for sure where my wife works). So far it looks like Plaquemines parish has had the worst of it with a a broke levee and the storm is moving really slowly (6 mph) so that's bad too. Here we go!
Luke

[van]

He only plays two bridges on that version. On this version:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mECjk17Sat8&feature=related
he plays a lot more one bar sequences on each bridge, and Harold Land and Duke Jordan play almost exclusively one bar sequences on their bridges.
I think JB is referring to strict sequences, in this case two beat sequences,where you play the same idea on each chord, which I agree is monotonous and bad jazz
playing.
The one bar sequences I'm talking about have one idea on the first dom7th chord, then a completely different idea on the second dom7th chord, then the same idea (in the new key) as the first idea on the third dom.7th chordthen the same idea (in a new key) as the second idea etc...
When I scat a solo off these changes(away from the guitar) I tend to hear a lot of these types of sequences in my head. Bach used a lot of these types of sequences.
I think even great players like these three used one bar sequences (NOT TWO BEAT SEQUENCES) on this progression is because it's one of the most quickly modulatory progressions of the standard progressions-every two beats (dom7th chord) is a new key. That's seven different keys in four bars.
But I totally agree with JB, it's much more hip to think in longer phrases and play lines through the chords (like CB did on the first, shorter version of Jordu).

[Gerry]

On 2012-08-29 18:20:18 +0000, jimmybruno said:

> On Aug 29, 2:17 pm, Gerry <addr...@domain.com> wrote:
>> On 2012-08-29 17:26:45 +0000, lukejazz said:
>>
>>>> Like you Tony,  I always feel I am wasting my time posting here.  No
>>>> one listens
>>
>>> Not true JB - I'm definitely listening. Thanks for your help on this.
>>
>> He doesn't really mean "listen", per se.  He means *some* people
>> (probably a small minority) don't accept and believe everything he
>> says.  That can be disheartening.
>

> Thanks Gerry.

Don't mention it. And while we're at it--no fault of the human
species--we learn things when we learn them, not when people hang them
out for inspection. Any fool can learn from their own mistakes--it
takes a sharp person to learn from another.

I am any fool.

[andy-uk .]

Hey what was that live album with Tal Farlow where they play Jordu for about 15 minutes? "the basement tapes" or something... send me an mp3 if you have it ;)

[Gerry]

I sent this but it doesn't look like it went through.

The 15 minute version is likely the one from from "Fuerst Set" which
is from 1956. It's also included on the "Complete Private Recordings"

[andy-uk .]

Thanks for that info.

[TD]

Well, thank you for your acknowledgement and I hope the idea (ideas) are of some use to some one. Of course, Jimmy is on target concerning the target ( target begets the target, if you will) chord change approached from the clever back-cycling jauntings. Whenever you have a quasi-rapid (or rapid) driving periodicity of II Vs (possibly more so utilizing strictly dominants), phrasing is *the* powerful tool, at least when one wishes to take the melodic-in-form approach/outcome. The chords are actually "bass-line" harmonizations meant to delay resolution intentions of the final II7, V7 cadence ( as back-cycling will do): First into "Dbmajor-land" (via the 'plane's final descent' from Eb7, Ab7) and Second into "Bmajor-land" (via final descent Db7, F#7).

And upon even closer inspection, we can see the cross relations cleverly hidden between the two strong cycles (Cycle of V and Cycle of III)) by spelling out (as the Brit comic Eddie Izzard would say, "In my mind", but no stopping anyone from staffing it up, as well) the Augmented triad C E Ab, all the while considering the eventual resolution to Dbmajor. Since the target chords are *not* strict 'vanilla' majors and are either major6's or major 7's (are a melange there of) you can hear a quite lucid resolution into each target: Play C E Ab (G#) to either C or Bb, all as single notes and then as the large 7 and next the large 6 of the target Db type chord. Next, turn those notes into chords and substitute Bb for E, thus yielding C7 Bb7 Ab7. However, to make a more apposite and conjunct bass line, substitute E7 with Bb7 ('b5 sub) and you have the naked dominants that drive the cadence home. After all, if we substituted the final Db chord with Gmajor (b5 sub), we would hear a very familiar progression, yes? And you can also hear a very lucid resolving quality as single line: C E Ab to G.

Try the same for the subsequent part of the bridge. The II7's can be more or less considered as "window dressing" to what is really going on within the back-cycling event. We took C7, Bb7 (E7) and Ab7 out of G7 C7/ F7 Bb7/ Eb7 Ab7/ Dbmaj6 //. We studied it and played it over and over. Then we put it all back together in spite of Humpty Dumpty's tragedy and we just may be helping out our phrasing devlopments along the way. It's all about hearing the forest for the trees.
-TD

[Greger Hoel]

I'm compiling a Jordu document from your post in this thread---thanks for
the lesson!

--
Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/