Ok, Hofner is looking better
GregD
I've seen some close up pix of these guitars and they are looking better to
my eyes. And Jimmy Bruno and Robert Conti uses them (per JHale)?
As an aside, I see that JB is offering private lessons @ $100/hour or
$75/hour every 2 weeks.
In fact, Hofner now has a Jimmy Bruno sig model.
Greg
Jack Zucker
They have no plans to do any off-shore manufacturing.
--
Experience a revolutionary way to approach the instrument.
Introducing Sheets of Sound for Guitar
"Let the music govern the way you play guitar instead of the guitar
governing the way you play music!"
Check it out at:
http://www.sheetsofsound.net
"GregD" <no...@oasyscoATcoxDOTnet.none> wrote in message
news:x1tmc.7966$Lm3.7192@lakeread04...
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <x1tmc.7966$Lm3.7192@lakeread04> :
>So, Hofner's are made in Germany/Austria, not Korea? Is that right?
just curious... why do you consider that a plus?
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, listen to sound clips, and get more info.
Alternate site for recent soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
Pt
wrote:
>On Thu, 06 May 2004 15:42:21 GMT, GregD <no...@oasyscoATcoxDOTnet.none>
>wrote in message <x1tmc.7966$Lm3.7192@lakeread04> :
>
>>So, Hofner's are made in Germany/Austria, not Korea? Is that right?
>
>
>just curious... why do you consider that a plus?
As for me...
I recall the MIJ guitars of the 60's 70's.
For the most part they were unplayable pieces of junk!
It's hard to forget!
Pt
GregD
news:j2ok901kfeiiqkafa...@4ax.com:
> On Thu, 06 May 2004 15:42:21 GMT, GregD <no...@oasyscoATcoxDOTnet.none>
> wrote in message <x1tmc.7966$Lm3.7192@lakeread04> :
>
>>So, Hofner's are made in Germany/Austria, not Korea? Is that right?
>
>
> just curious... why do you consider that a plus?
Because I consider that if the owner of the brand name of a line of
guitars is also the manufacturer, there is a better chance of
consistently good quality as opposed to slapping a brand name on a guitar
that one day is made in Korea, then Indonesia, and then China and Vietnam
by a variety of manufacturers whose worker skill levels and care vary
like the wind. Let's not even discuss wood storage in humid climates like
Vietnam and whether or not they can offer the same climate controlled
conditions that the Germans and Americans can.
The consistentcy of quality is not always true, obviously, given some of
the sloppy stuff that emanates from Gibson and Heritage, but for the most
part, I feel it is true.
Hofner used to be a German brand and still is. I like that. Remember
Gretsch? Used to be US, then moved to Japan, Korea, etc.
Greg
Max Leggett
wrote:
>Kevin Van Sant <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote in
>news:j2ok901kfeiiqkafa...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Thu, 06 May 2004 15:42:21 GMT, GregD <no...@oasyscoATcoxDOTnet.none>
>> wrote in message <x1tmc.7966$Lm3.7192@lakeread04> :
>>
>>>So, Hofner's are made in Germany/Austria, not Korea? Is that right?
>>
>>
>> just curious... why do you consider that a plus?
>
>Because I consider that if the owner of the brand name of a line of
>guitars is also the manufacturer, there is a better chance of
>consistently good quality as opposed to slapping a brand name on a guitar
>that one day is made in Korea, then Indonesia, and then China and Vietnam
>by a variety of manufacturers whose worker skill levels and care vary
>like the wind. Let's not even discuss wood storage in humid climates like
>Vietnam and whether or not they can offer the same climate controlled
>conditions that the Germans and Americans can.
>
>The consistentcy of quality is not always true, obviously, given some of
>the sloppy stuff that emanates from Gibson and Heritage, but for the most
>part, I feel it is true.
>
>Hofner used to be a German brand and still is. I like that. Remember
>Gretsch? Used to be US, then moved to Japan, Korea, etc.
Given the heritage of musical nstrument building in the East -
Yamaha's been making musical instruments sine the 1800s - and given
the high degree of automation in all factories, I don't think there'd
be a noticeable difference in quality between comparable instruments.
Pt
wrote:
>Kevin Van Sant <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote in
>news:j2ok901kfeiiqkafa...@4ax.com:
>
>> On Thu, 06 May 2004 15:42:21 GMT, GregD <no...@oasyscoATcoxDOTnet.none>
>> wrote in message <x1tmc.7966$Lm3.7192@lakeread04> :
>>
>>>So, Hofner's are made in Germany/Austria, not Korea? Is that right?
>>
>>
>> just curious... why do you consider that a plus?
>
>Because I consider that if the owner of the brand name of a line of
>guitars is also the manufacturer, there is a better chance of
>consistently good quality as opposed to slapping a brand name on a guitar
>that one day is made in Korea, then Indonesia, and then China and Vietnam
>by a variety of manufacturers whose worker skill levels and care vary
>like the wind. Let's not even discuss wood storage in humid climates like
>Vietnam and whether or not they can offer the same climate controlled
>conditions that the Germans and Americans can.
>
>The consistentcy of quality is not always true, obviously, given some of
>the sloppy stuff that emanates from Gibson and Heritage, but for the most
>part, I feel it is true.
>
>Hofner used to be a German brand and still is. I like that. Remember
>Gretsch? Used to be US, then moved to Japan, Korea, etc.
>
>Greg
I think that all of the top of the line Gretsches are made in Japan
these days and they are still selling for big bucks.
Their cheaper models are made by Samick in Korea.
Pt
GregD
news:409a70c4....@News.sprint.ca:
I've owned several Yamaha's over the past 5 years - AEX502, CPX8M, and a
couple of others. I've not liked any of them. They be consistent, but
imo, they're consistently unsatisfying.
Still, AFAIK, Ymaha owns the factories they make guitars in. That makes a
differenc ein quality as well when all the employees work for the same
company regardless if they are located in Japan or Taiwan.
Greg
Pt
I don't know where things are going.
Because of financial reasons I bought one of the cheapest basses that
I could find.
This was an OLP Music Man Stingray from Ebay.
I have owned many basses, all American, and this is one of the best
looking, sounding and playing basses I have ever played.
It is a hand rubbed oil finish, elm wood, heavy grain beautiful
instrument.
New.
$229 and made in China.
How do you beat that?
I think American instrument manufacturers better get to work making
higher quailty instruments at more reasonable prices.
Pt
MBR
I think D'Angelico guitars are made in Japan, as are the higher end
Ibanez. Both nice guitars.
Max Leggett
>> >Hofner used to be a German brand and still is. I like that. Remember
>> >Gretsch? Used to be US, then moved to Japan, Korea, etc.
>>
>> Given the heritage of musical nstrument building in the East -
>> Yamaha's been making musical instruments sine the 1800s - and given
>> the high degree of automation in all factories, I don't think there'd
>> be a noticeable difference in quality between comparable instruments.
>=================================
>I think D'Angelico guitars are made in Japan, as are the higher end
>Ibanez. Both nice guitars.
D'Angelico fer shure. In classical guitar Kono is a huge name. People
used to laugh at Korean made guitars, but now they're excellent
mid-range instruments. The Chinese'll get there, too.
thomas
>
> Hofner used to be a German brand and still is. I like that.
I like a lot of Hofner's high-end models from the 1950s.
Some of those are fabulous acoustic archtops. Just try not
to think about what your luthier was doing during the war...
Dean Athans
I don't know which side the luthiers who worked for Hofner in the
1950s were on during WWII. They might have been prisoners or guards of
the Hitler regime.
All I do know is that the 2003 Hofner Vice President I play is a
quality instrument, with the best sound acoustically of any instrument
I have owned. It's a left-handed model, and good quality control on
lefty instruments might be a clue as to general quality of a
manufacturer. I have seen more than a few Gibson, Heritage, and other
high-end lefty instruments that were seriously flawed in the last few
years. While I have only one lefty Hofner in my sample, they have made
no mistakes like the Heritage 575 I played which had a righty bridge
and was seriously in need of Pleking. The three lefty ES175's I have
played in shops over the last four years have all been badly finished
and/or with twisted necks/loose frets, and undesirable tone.
Dean
Mark Guest
news:e49039c5.04050...@posting.google.com...
I'd like to try one of the Verithins. L-5 sound from a small guitar? Sounds
interesting. One thing for sure, if they ever name one the Fuhrer or
vice-Fuhrer, I'm not buying!
--
Mark Guest
Mark at MarkGuest.net
www.MarkGuest.net
thom_j
> > I like a lot of Hofner's high-end models from the 1950s.
> > Some of those are fabulous acoustic archtops. Just try not
> > to think about what your luthier was doing during the war...
"Dean Athans" wrote:
> I don't know which side the luthiers who worked for Hofner in the
> 1950s were on during WWII. They might have been prisoners or guards of
> the Hitler regime.
>
> All I do know is that the 2003 Hofner Vice President I play is a
> quality instrument, with the best sound acoustically of any instrument
> I have owned. It's a left-handed model, and good quality control on
> lefty instruments might be a clue as to general quality of a
> manufacturer. I have seen more than a few Gibson, Heritage, and other
> high-end lefty instruments that were seriously flawed in the last few
> years. While I have only one lefty Hofner in my sample, they have made
> no mistakes like the Heritage 575 I played which had a righty bridge
> and was seriously in need of Pleking. The three lefty ES175's I have
> played in shops over the last four years have all been badly finished
> and/or with twisted necks/loose frets, and undesirable tone.
> Dean
Dean, this is definately one archtop I'd go for if I had the $bucks$.
With us both being 'lefties' we know just how hard it is to find any
lefty guitar besides a good one. I too have played a Hofner archie
and I really dug it plus I dig the cats'eye F'holes too. They have a
nice clean appearence but of course we don't play guitars cuz' of
their f'holes [remember, I typed "guitars"...8^)'..] maybe one day
I'll have one but only time will tell..
Btw: It's nice seeing you on rmmgj again Dean... cheers thom_j.
gtrmon
"Max Leggett" <hepkatre...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:409aea4a...@News.sprint.ca...
Max,
Check out the Eastman Uptown Luxury models.
Although I haven't played them I think the Chinese may already be there, and
guess what, they're clever at marketing maybe. Turns out there's a pro line
of
Eastman's for about $1000 more that will have more attention paid to
finishing
details, a better quality finish supposedly better for tone. In their promo
for the pro line they give a convincing demonstration of their knowledge of
the specific drawbacks of the present lower end models.
Your Add Here!
these days and they are still selling for big bucks.
Their cheaper models are made by Samick in Korea."
Last I heard the top line was made in Kalamazoo by the good people at Heritage.
Nate Lamy
Despite outsourcing some of their work locally (an old luthiery
tradition in Germany), the high end Hofners are indeed "made in
Germany". The company that owns Hofner is also using the brand on a
variety of cheap Chinese built flattops, classical guitars and
solid-bodied electrics. It would be very hard to confuse the
European-built Hofners with the Chinese dreksticks, although one could
certainly question whether this is good for the health of the brand.
> > All I do know is that the 2003 Hofner Vice President I play is a
> > quality instrument, with the best sound acoustically of any instrument
> > I have owned. It's a left-handed model, and good quality control on
> > lefty instruments might be a clue as to general quality of a
> > manufacturer.
> > Dean
Hofner has had a few quality control issues since its most recent
serious marketing push into the USA that started in 1999. The
deficiencies have been corrected (mostly overly thick finishes
resulting in finish checks, some finish clouding)or are minor enough
to be corrected by a decent luthier during a local set up (mostly
improper fret finishing). There is no question that they are making
great guitars these days.
> I'd like to try one of the Verithins. L-5 sound from a small guitar? Sounds
> interesting.
The sound of the Verythin bears very little relation to the sound of
an L-5. It can be set up to provide a jazzy sound, but it's a
laminated thinline guitar with a solid spruce center block. I think it
has a unique voice in the guitar world, and not many new guitars can
make that claim. If you like the sound of an L-5 but are looking for a
small-bodied Hofner, try a New President - it will get you much closer
than the Verythin. Or try the latest archtop guitar from Hofner (see
below).
> One thing for sure, if they ever name one the Fuhrer or
> vice-Fuhrer, I'm not buying!
Well, the latest guitar from Hofner in Germany is, wait for it ... the
Chancellor. Two prototypes were on display at NAMM. See J. Hale's site
for a few pix. It's a 17" carved top/carved back/solid wood sides
acoustic archtop with the same pickup as the New President or Jazzica,
and a 16th fret neck/body joint. A small first run of them is being
built now.
Having had the chance to play the prototypes both electrically and
acoustically, I can say that they will be very nice guitars indeed.
They are also of some historical note, as this is the first time in
the history of Hofner that they have produced a carved top AND carved
back/solid sides archtop guitar.
- Nate Lamy
Keith Freeman
> small-bodied Hofner, try a New President
of depth in the lower bout (the body thickness goes from 2 1/4" to 4
1/2"). This not only gives more depth in the bass, it also slants the
neck towards the player, making it comfortable to play.
I've had mine for a few years now and love it to bits!
-Keith
Music samples, tips, Portable Changes at
http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/
E-mail: keith DOT freeman AT wanadoo DOT nl
Jack Zucker
news:a9569fa4.0405...@posting.google.com...
> The sound of the Verythin bears very little relation to the sound of
> an L-5.
Actually, if you close-mic the Verythin, it's acoustic sound (albeit quiet)
sounds amazingly like an L5).
> It can be set up to provide a jazzy sound, but it's a
> laminated thinline guitar with a solid spruce center block. I think it
> has a unique voice in the guitar world, and not many new guitars can
> make that claim. If you like the sound of an L-5 but are looking for a
> small-bodied Hofner, try a New President - it will get you much closer
> than the Verythin. Or try the latest archtop guitar from Hofner (see
> below).
The new president won't sound like an L5 at all. With 24 frets, a neck that
meets the body at the 16th fret, and a mini humbucker, it's a much brighter
guitar and more focused guitar than an L5 with 20 frets, neck meeting the
body at the 14th fret and full sized, set-in humbuckers. The Chancellor is
likely to sound more like an L5 but it's still got the floating mini
humbucker. I'm working with hofner to try to get them to offer the guitar
with a full sized, set-in humbucker.
The Bruno guitar looked potentially the most like an L5 but it's being
re-designed to be a semi-hollow.
The Hofner guitars are amazing in quality and construction, especially
considering the German engineering and manufacturing.
thomas
> "Nate Lamy" <flo...@interlog.com> wrote in message
> news:a9569fa4.0405...@posting.google.com...
>
> > The sound of the Verythin bears very little relation to the sound of
> > an L-5.
>
> Actually, if you close-mic the Verythin, it's acoustic sound (albeit quiet)
> sounds amazingly like an L5).
Anyone interested in this sound should check out Sid Jacobs'
Bill Evans book. On the accompanying CD, Sid plays a Verythin.
The guitar and amp are both miked. It's a fantastic jazz guitar
sound, but it doesn't sound like an L5 to my ear. You can hear
some of these recordings at Sid's web site:
Formerly Sideways
>
> Despite outsourcing some of their work locally (an old luthiery
> tradition in Germany), the high end Hofners are indeed "made in
> Germany". The company that owns Hofner is also using the brand on a
> variety of cheap Chinese built flattops, classical guitars and
> solid-bodied electrics. It would be very hard to confuse the
> European-built Hofners with the Chinese dreksticks, although one could
> certainly question whether this is good for the health of the brand.
>
thinking of Hohner instead of Hofner? I could only find mention of
one or two Asian made Hofner acoustics, the electrics seem to all be
the jazz models discussed here. Hohner on the other hand, has a
complete line of Asian imports. In fact, I believe Prince's famous
"Let's Go Crazy" tele is a Hohner.
GregD
news:db420ccf.04052...@posting.google.com:
Only speaking for myself, I was talking about Hofner when I wondered if
they were, indeed, built in Germany. There is another archtop line that is
completely built in China - big name, too... shoot, what the heck is it?
they started by importing violins and went with archtops in 1999 using Bob
Benedetto's book as a guide...
Greg
Joseph Albano
Mike Sly
I heard Jimmy Bruno play his Hofner signature model this past weekend,
It sounded very cool to me.
sLY
Nate Lamy
Hohner guitars have always been built in the Orient.
Hofner guitars were always built in Germany until recently.
Points of origin are as follows as of NOW:
- Verythins - Germany
- New President, Bruno, Jazzica - Germany
- Chancellor - Germany
- 500/1, 5000/1, 500/2 basses - Germany
- Hofner Sienna Series flattops - China
- Hofner Shorty - China
- Hofner Colorama (if they ever arrive) - China
- Hofner Classical guitars - Germany, but China is coming if not
already here
This is already a mistake from a marketing point of view - the Chinese
built stuff should have a secondary name right on the headstocks, but
don't.
BTW, Hofner differentiates between the Chinese and German violin
family stuff by calling the Chinese-built stuff "Andrew Schroetter"
and the German stuff "Paesold"
- Nate
Nate Lamy
>...[]...If you like the sound of an L-5 but are looking for a
>small-bodied Hofner, try a New President - it will get you much
>closer than the Verythin. Or try the latest archtop guitar from
>Hofner (see below).
JZ:
>>The new president won't sound like an L5 at all.
NL:
I agree, especially since I did not say that the New President sounds
like an L-5.
JZ:
>>With 24 frets, a neck that meets the body at the 16th fret,
>>and a mini humbucker, it's a much brighter guitar and more
>>focused guitar than an L5 with 20 frets, neck meeting the
>>body at the 14th fret and full sized, set-in humbuckers.
NL:
Yes. An electrified L-5C typically has a floating mini-humbucking
pickup and an unobstructed top, while the L-5CES has two set-in full
sized humbuckers, four knobs set into the top, a three way switch set
into the top, extra bracing and a theoretically thicker top. And the
Wes has a single full-sized set-in humbucker with two controls set
into the top, extra bracing and a theoretically thicker top. All of
these models are parallel braced.
The New President's undampened, carved spruce top and internal air
volume combined with floating mini-humbucking pickup/controls allow
for the classic attack/decay and timbral characteristics, missing from
the Verythin, a fundamentally different but wonderful design.
The Verythin is an excellent instrument capable of producing a great
jazz tone. I particularly like the wy it doesn't feedback at high
volume, unlike any L-5 or New President. And I even more particularly
like the way it DOES feedback at even higher volume.
JZ:
>>The Chancellor is likely to sound more like an L5
>>but it's still got the floating minihumbucker.
>>I'm working with hofner to try to get them to offer
>>the guitar with a full sized, set-in humbucker.
NL:
The introductory configuration is clearly modeled after the L-5C
w/added pickup. I encourage you to request a Wes (and L-5CES for that
matter) setup - it's a good idea. The Chancellors I've played to date
have balls to spare with the current set-up, BTW.
Hofner could easily add the bracing necessary to allow the New
President, Jazzica or Chancellor to support either single or double
set-in pickups (full-sized or mini-humbucking). Come to think of it,
there is no reason why Eastman couldn't do the same thing. Neither
company has done this yet, for reasons that have nothing to do with
consumer demand.
- Nate
Jack Zucker
> This is already a mistake from a marketing point of view - the Chinese
> built stuff should have a secondary name right on the headstocks, but
> don't.
Hmmm - Not sure I agree there.
--
Experience a revolutionary way to approach the instrument.
Introducing Sheets of Sound for Guitar
"Let the music govern the way you play guitar instead of the guitar
governing the way you play music!"
Check it out at:
http://www.sheetsofsound.net
Claus Rogge
> if they ever name one the Fuhrer or
> vice-Fuhrer, I'm not buying!
You must be crazy.
Nate Lamy
> "Nate Lamy" <flo...@interlog.com> wrote in message
> news:a9569fa4.04052...@posting.google.com...
> > This is already a mistake from a marketing point of view - the Chinese
> > built stuff should have a secondary name right on the headstocks, but
> > don't.
> Hmmm - Not sure I agree there.
Guitars made for or by Gibson in the Orient are called "Epiphone",
"Orville", and "Orville by Gibson". Guitars made for Guild in the
Orient are called "DeArmond (now changed to "Squier")
Guitars made for Fender are clearly labeled regarding country of
origin, so Fender wonks know what they are getting, and Fenders are
literally defined by origin (MIM or MIJ or American or Squier).
Similarly, the Martin brand proposition is so well understood that
buyers of high-end Martins understand the differences between their
instruments and low-end instruments that now carry the Martin name.
Hofner is not as well known as these brands, so its communications
need to be clear and simple. The company's claims of European
heritage, craftsmanship and woods are important to establishing
credibility and continuity in the marketplace. The most often made
comments at trade shows about these guitars are "I didn't know they
were still in business", "I assumed they were made in
Japan/Korea/China", "I thought it was laminated or pressed" - in other
words, Hofner is only at the start of communicating its brand quality
messages.
They have their hands full just trying to produce German guitars in a
manner that fulfills the brand promise and responds to the
marketplace. If they want to offer low-cost, high-volume Chinese
guitars without diluting the brand equity that has been building over
the past five years, just call them something else.
- Nate
Jack Zucker
should be judged by it's intrinsic value, tone, workmanship and materials.
It's origin has nothing to do with it. I've played Korean Epiphone guitars
that had better inlay work than their American counterparts. Asian guitars
such as the Eastman guitars are fabulous instruments. I see no reason for a
company to do anything but put their company logo on the instrument.
Jaz
--
Experience a revolutionary way to approach the instrument.
Introducing Sheets of Sound for Guitar
"Let the music govern the way you play guitar instead of the guitar
governing the way you play music!"
Check it out at:
http://www.sheetsofsound.net
"Nate Lamy" <flo...@interlog.com> wrote in message
Ken Rose
Verythin JS with violin finish (can hardly wait!).
Jack's last post reminded me that when I was growing up, saying something
was "made in Japan" was an insult--another way of saying it was cheap. That
changed a long time ago. I have a feeling that "made in China" is beginning
to make the same transition. Eastman guitars are one indication. Another
is the very fine (and cheap!) acoustic basses being made in China. A friend
here recently got one, and it's great. What's interesting is that these
instruments are built in China, but set up in the US. That's very
important, and I think reflects that the Chinese craftsmen still have a ways
to go. But I don't think it's fair anymore to simply assume that something
made in China/Korea/wherever is automatically inferior to something made in
the USA. Those days are gone.
Ken Rose
www.cdbaby.com/kenrose
"Jack Zucker" <j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
news:JqWdnc_Ul-M...@adelphia.com...
Nate Lamy
> Nate - You answered by describing a symptom, not telling me "why". A guitar
> should be judged by it's intrinsic value, tone, workmanship and materials.
> It's origin has nothing to do with it. I've played Korean Epiphone guitars
> that had better inlay work than their American counterparts. Asian guitars
> such as the Eastman guitars are fabulous instruments. I see no reason for a
> company to do anything but put their company logo on the instrument.
> Jaz
Why?
Because the Chinese ones will confuse consumers and they will be less
inclined to buy the ones made in Germany.
Chinese Hofners will confuse the buyers. The recent and hard-earned
reputation of Jazzicas, New Presidents and Verythins as great little
pro guitars that offer value for the money and are actually original
designs will be co-opted by misinformation. Consumers generaly know
very little about Hofners as it is.
And because Hofner cannot afford to spend any real money on marketing
or advertising, it will be unable to counter any misconceptions.
Gibson understands this, as do many other companies in the business.
They are perfectly happy to sell Epiphone Les Pauls to folks who
cannot afford Gibson Les Pauls, just as Fender is perfectly happy to
sell MIM Stratocasters to those who cannot afford American
Stratocasters. I believe that none of the established makers brand
their oriental-made guitars the same way they brand their
American-made products.
Your criteria for how guitars should be judged are great, but have
very little to do with how guitars actually ARE judged by many
consumers.
That Eastman Strings has entered the guitar market and is slowly but
surely making headway is a testament to the minority of buyers who
judge guitars fairly. Consumers in the know understand the history of
the company and its potential. They know that Eastman is different -
it's a few hundred people trained specifically to make Eastman stuff,
as opposed to any of the many for-hire suppliers who knock together
whatever currently crappy copy guitars they can for whoever approaches
them, on a least-cost basis. But Hofner can't get Eastman to make its
guitars. Nor do they have 20 years to grow their own dedicated Chinese
workforce.
You can be sure that Gibson is watching Eastman very closely because
of the effect Eastman will have on the pricing of carved archtop
guitars. American consumers may be dumb but they are not stupid. As
the quality differential closes, the pricing differential will become
that more noticeable to consumers. $2.5K for an Eastman instead of $6K
for an L-5C? It's going to get interesting.
- Nate
adam
chancellor' hehehe.
"Claus Rogge" <rogge...@aon.at> wrote in message
news:10759cb1.04052...@posting.google.com...
Jimmy Bruno
"GregD" <no...@oasyscoATcoxDOTnet.none> wrote in message