what happens to all the jazz school graduates?
Shane Bowman
been on my mind. What happens to the thousands of musicians that
graduate jazz programs every year? There are probably hundreds from the
"name" schools alone ie Miami, Eastman, North Texas, Berklee. Then
there are the hundreds of no name programs all over the country. Do all
of them simply teach and play in wedding bands? The sheer number of
jazz graduates boggles me and I cant imagine what they all do. It would
be interesting to see statistics on what these graduates do. Anecdotal
evidence is good too though :).
-Shane Bowman
_ya_wanna@mail.com jeffbonny
<coltra...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> What happens to the thousands of musicians that
>graduate jazz programs every year?
Wasn't it someone here who told the story recently about his parents
driving him to Boston for his first semester at Berklee and the
bellboy at the hotel they were staying at saying, "Good school, I went
there"?
jeffbonny
van.bc.ca
Alex Beauroy
I am looking forward to have an answer to this question!!
@lex
Clifford Golson
The really lucky ones are working for UPS.
CG
"Shane Bowman" <coltra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1122015880.7...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
oasysco
middle school, and high school music education in my area and some
profs at a local college. Many of these folks also teach music on the
side privately and some gig out. One guy comes to mind who blows my
doors off guitar-wise, plus he sings. He's got the coffee house circuit
pretty much wrapped up, teaches privately, works part-time at a local
wellness center, and teaches music at the middle school level.
Greg
SHB
graduated from Berklee last year, a music education major, she had a music
teaching job, it was a fill in position while the normal teacher was on tour
with an opera, she is looking for a music teaching job but they are almost
impossible to come by, we are both getting discouraged. A friend of mine
that graduated Berklee 2 years ago has a band with 3 other Berklee grads and
on non music school guy that is on MTV and national tours, (not jazz), my
wife's best friend teachs and performs in Texas, my piano teacher graduated
Berklee last month and works in a restaurant, lots of Berklee grads seem to
work at the Whole Foods near me, and there are many Asian students at
Berklee that go to music school and then go back to their home country. Oh
and I had a piano trio at my wedding, they all went to Berklee, they were
great though, not a cheesy wedding band by any means.
Steve
"Shane Bowman" <coltra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1122015880.7...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
ott...@hotmail.com
Bg
bob r
Bowman at coltra...@yahoo.com wrote on 7/22/05 3:04 AM:
What happens to all the MBA's?
--
Bob Russell
http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
Shane Bowman
> What happens to all the MBA's?
> --
> Bob Russell
> http://www.bobrussellguitar.com
> http://www.cdbaby.com/bobrussell
I dont know but this isnt a business message board is it ;)
-Shane Bowman
Shane Bowman
negative about jazz ed, I'm a hs senior whos probably going to north
texas next fall and trying to wort some of this stuff out myself.
-Shane Bowman
Tom Walls
They're like socks lost in the laundry. It's an enigma.
--
Tom Walls
the guy at the Temple of Zeus
Mark Kleinhaut
with respect and dignity. The corporate world provides career paths
that are organized and thoughtfully planned out. Health care and
retirement are a given.
My view of the fate of music school graduates is along the lines of
what happens to uncontrolled population growth curves of bacteria in a
petri dish. When the viability of making a career as a performing
musician went down the toilet with the advent of television, home
entertainemet systems and the information age, musicians became
educators to survive. College level music education programs sprouted
up all over the place like weeds. The progeny of this system, the
music graduates, faced still fewer gig opportunities than their
predecessors, not to mention more competition from their brethren, so
more and more of them became educators too. This continues to escalate
the growth curve of the education system....more teachers and more
programs in more places, which works fine, but only as long as there is
an ever increasing supply of students to pay the freight. But like all
population explosion curves, it is not sustainable. This WILL HIT A
BRICK WALL when there are not enough students coming into the system to
support the growth. At this point programs will cut back and educators
will lose jobs. Thus will begin the downward sprial and the inevitable
CRASH. Would-be students who see and hear that employment is off,
realize that 4-years of training, costs and study to work at Starbuck
or Walmart will never pay off. Enrollment falls off and more programs
and jobs are cut- the cycle accelerates even more quickly than it grew
until the entire system disintegrates. There is no way to control
this and no way to stop it.
At some point, there will be a small population of players playing the
small number of gigs that are out there. Balance will be restored at a
fraction of its former level. Then it will start all over again.
Nobody will ever learn from this cycle - its force is universal.
JOSEPH JEWELL
"Shane Bowman" <coltra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1122015880.7...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
I ended up teaching at one of your "no name" schools. I'm glad I got the
job.
Just because you graduate with a degree in Physical Education doesn't
qualify you for the NBA. Your life is what you make of it.
Joe Jewell
www.joejewellguitar.com
www.clubdjango.com
Max Leggett
wrote:
>I don't have statistics, but I have some anecdotal evidence. My wife
>graduated from Berklee last year, a music education major, she had a music
>teaching job, it was a fill in position while the normal teacher was on tour
>with an opera, she is looking for a music teaching job but they are almost
>impossible to come by, we are both getting discouraged. A friend of mine
>that graduated Berklee 2 years ago has a band with 3 other Berklee grads and
>on non music school guy that is on MTV and national tours, (not jazz), my
>wife's best friend teachs and performs in Texas, my piano teacher graduated
>Berklee last month and works in a restaurant, lots of Berklee grads seem to
>work at the Whole Foods near me, and there are many Asian students at
>Berklee that go to music school and then go back to their home country. Oh
>and I had a piano trio at my wedding, they all went to Berklee, they were
>great though, not a cheesy wedding band by any means.
Not jazz, but my sister graduated from music in composition. 90% of
the people who graduated with her eke out a living giving private
theory lessons, and 10% - if they're lucky - teach at music schools on
a contract basis. She considers herself extremely fortunate not only
to have a contract teachning gig, but is also the music librarian,
which means she gets benefits.
Max Leggett
Wll said. No mater what you graduate in you're going to have to work
your arse off and be better than 90% of the rest. If you're an MBA who
doesn't do that then you end up in a cubicle, and if you're a music
grad who doesn't do that then you end up at Walmart. A degree - in
anything - along with a couple of bucks will get you a latte at
Starbucks.
>Joe Jewell
>www.joejewellguitar.com
>www.clubdjango.com
>
>
Joe Finn
"Shane Bowman" <coltra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1122015880.7...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Shane: It's not unlike other fields. Many music school grads end up in other
endeavors.
Many continue as performers; but we can't all be performers. Many become
instructors.
Many find that the discipline they acquired through music studies serves
them quite well in unrelated fields where they find contentment and perhaps
even financial security.
By the same token there are lots of lawyers, doctors, engineers, finance
people, dentists, etc. with very strong backgrounds in music. .....joe
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
>
David Raleigh Arnold
> To those proponents of college jazz education, I have a question thats
> been on my mind. What happens to the thousands of musicians that graduate
> jazz programs every year?
Looked at the Berklee alumni website. They have a list of alumni that
they want to brag on that is not real long, but no stats or survey
results on what all their grads are doing now. The silence is deafening.
daveA
--
The only technical exercises for all guitarists worth a lifetime
of practice: "Dynamic Guitar Technique". Nothing else is close.
Free download: http://www.openguitar.com/instruction.html
daveA David Raleigh Arnold dra..at..openguitar.com
joemont...@hotmail.com
> By the same token there are lots of lawyers, doctors, engineers, finance
> people, dentists, etc. with very strong backgrounds in music. .....joe
I play in a pretty jumping octet...2 months ago the Band Leader was
contacted by the local Parks Dept. about playing a series of Concerts
in various City Parks...he bid on the jobs (about 6 of them) for Union
Scale, explained how they could use MPF, and sent them a Union Contract
outlining it all...
Three weeks ago he got a polite letter turning down the bid. He called
a City Official and found out that a local hospital staff of doctors
and nurses had put a little band of their own together and they had
'volunteered' to play all 6 gigs for fun and relaxation.
Yeah, but 2 of our guys went to North Texas State!!!!!
JM
paul
make it they don't teach you in schools. things like hustling gigs,
working as a sideman and as a leader, negotiating pay, etc.
convincing people to pay you more money is huge, and can be the
difference between scraping by and making pretty good money. students
are never taught this in school and are usually not good at it at all,
and for most working musicians a skill like this is way way way more
important (sadly) than how well they play over giant steps.
in my experience very very few guys play well enough to not have to
worry about this stuff. the guys that do play well enough just get
enough calls from people that they don't have to worry a whole lot
about getting their own gigs.
--paul
bob r
Kleinhaut at markkl...@hotmail.com wrote on 7/22/05 11:01 AM:
> MBA's make good livings in the 9 to 5 business world, They're treated
> with respect and dignity. The corporate world provides career paths
> that are organized and thoughtfully planned out. Health care and
> retirement are a given.
That's true, for those who find jobs. The job market for MBA's cycles like
everything else. It has gone through several slow years and is just now
showing signs of life again. Until fairly recently, it's been widely
considered a recruiter's market.
People in the corporate world who've experienced downsizing, outsourcing,
mergers, etc. might have something to say about those organized and
carefully thought out career paths, too. Enron employees thought retirement
was "a given". No matter what life path you choose, nothing's guaranteed. Do
something you love and make the best of it.
paul
--paul
Max Leggett
wrote:
That's what Kleinhaut did. He studied music at Rutgers and ended up as
a pooh-bah at a bank incharge of foreclosing on widows and orphans.
:-) Not all roads lead to Wal Mart.
Marc Sabatella
> graduate jazz programs every year?
Realistically, the career paths and options are not all that dissimilar
to those of the musicians of the same age that *don't* get music
degrees. The main difference that I can see is that the ones with music
degrees are much more likely to end up getting teachings gigs at
schools, as most require degrees (advanced degrees for teaching at the
college level). Obviously, folks who get degrees in *other* fields are
reasonably likely to get jobs in those other fields. But quite a few
musicians coming out of high school don't get degrees at all - either
because they drop out of college, or just never go.
So, what *do* all these folks end up doing? Well, some actual
statistics would sure be nice. But I can give you some idea of the
range based on folks I know personally.
There are indeed those playing jazz full time and making a living at it.
Very few, relatively speaking, but it *is* possible, and it is not
limited to the big name folks in NYC. More often, though, you end up
supplementing your jazz gigs by playing in blues/R*B bands, or
symphonies, doing session work, doing commissioned arrangements, playing
for musical theater, playing in entertainment agency sponsored pop cover
/ wedding bands, doing the occasional cruise ship gig, etc. And of
course teaching some lessons on the side. Depending on the where you
live (the scene there as well as cost of living), how good you are, and
how good you are at self-promotion, it's not entirely unreasonable to
hope to eek out a living this way.
On the other hand, quite a few folks end up getting day jobs even while
not giving up on music completely. Of course, if you have a specific
skill in another area, that's a natural choice - and I might recommend
pursuing a degree there instead of music, as the degree is a big
differentiator in most fields in a way it isn't for music. Except for
teaching - that's the one reason and only advantage conferred on you by
a music degree. Of course, what you learn along the way in music school
can be valuable too, but it's hardly a guarantee of anything, as there
are great players who did not attent music school, and lousy players
with Ph.D.'s. But teaching is a big deal, as it's one of the few day
jobs available that keeps you involved with the scene. Very few of the
people teaching grade/middle/high school are active players on the scene
in my experienc, though. Not that they don't have the chops - it's
probably more a lack of energy (and a need to get up at 6 AM). Also
just a change in focus. On the other hand, most of the university
faculty I know are pretty active players as well. This requires a
graduate degree, though.
Anyhow, quite a few end up in jobs unrelated to music, and for most of
them, it ends up being like teaching grade school - draining (or perhaps
satisfying?) enough that they aren't all that active as players.
There are a few other music-related jobs I've seen people gravitate
toward. Working in music stores the most obvious. Quite a few try
their hands at running record labels, but that's pretty iffy. Web
design for musicians. Working in the offices of entertainment agencies.
These folks tend to be more active as players than the ones working
completely non-musical jobs.
> There are probably hundreds from the
> "name" schools alone ie Miami, Eastman, North Texas, Berklee.
Note that while this may be true, some of those are also located in
pretty big cities that can absorb a bunch of musicians every year. Many
graduates return to their hometowns to try to make a living, asd they
are already somewhat known there (hopefully). Others try NYC. Others
start looking for a teaching gig and move to wherever they can get one.
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Tone
I'd be sort of surprised if any college had those on their website.
Unless they happen to have an army of interns with nothing better to do
than survey alumni. And of course the alumni aren't all jumping at the
chance to fill out questionaires or spend a lot of time on the phone
yacking about what they are up to either. Seems like sort of a
doubtful use of ye olde endowment.
Kurt Shapiro
school, teaching, computers, driving the big rigs, blah, blah, blah. You
have no way of knowing what you'll be doing in 10 or 20 years.
The value of education is not merely as vocational training. And believe
me, there are far worse things than teaching and playing in wedding bands.
Personally, I'm happier teaching and playing in wedding bands than staring
at a CRT in the bowels of a software company.
Study what you love and what has meaning for you. In the long run, this
will be far more valuable than vocational training.
"Joe Finn" <J...@JoeFinn.net> wrote in message
news:1122046689.ac0757027f531ce5dc3d653a7e68697c@teranews...
>
> Many find that the discipline they acquired through music studies serves
> them quite well in unrelated fields where they find contentment and
> perhaps even financial security.
>
bob r
kurtWITHOUTT...@hoNOtmSPAMailTHANKS.com wrote on 7/22/05 12:51 PM:
> Doesn't matter. First thing, if you get your degree, there's always law
> school, teaching, computers, driving the big rigs, blah, blah, blah. You
> have no way of knowing what you'll be doing in 10 or 20 years.
>
> The value of education is not merely as vocational training. And believe
> me, there are far worse things than teaching and playing in wedding bands.
> Personally, I'm happier teaching and playing in wedding bands than staring
> at a CRT in the bowels of a software company.
>
> Study what you love and what has meaning for you. In the long run, this
> will be far more valuable than vocational training.
In my opinion, the morphing of the university into a glorified trade school
is one of the worst things that's happened to civilization.
Max Leggett
<kurtWITHOUTT...@hoNOtmSPAMailTHANKS.com> wrote:
>Doesn't matter. First thing, if you get your degree, there's always law
>school, teaching, computers, driving the big rigs, blah, blah, blah. You
>have no way of knowing what you'll be doing in 10 or 20 years.
>
>The value of education is not merely as vocational training. And believe
>me, there are far worse things than teaching and playing in wedding bands.
>Personally, I'm happier teaching and playing in wedding bands than staring
>at a CRT in the bowels of a software company.
>
>Study what you love and what has meaning for you. In the long run, this
>will be far more valuable than vocational training.
This is true. There's a tendency to conflate education with getting a
job. Two different things. The first widens your intellectual
horizons, and gives you the ability to reason and develop a critical
facility, and the second enables you to be a consumer and watch TV.
Roll on the Simpsons, that's what I say.
glen
school grads that "time to lean is time to clean".
g
glen
Michael Nickolas
>They have a list of alumni that
>they want to brag on that is not real long, but no stats or survey
>results on what all their grads are doing now. The silence is deafening.
I'm a Berklee alumni. You wont find me on the brag list. But there are
alternatives to teaching or GB. These days, I'm making my career in
music by licensing my original music. I've had my pieces on ABC, CBS,
NBC, Showtime and the Country Music TV station. I've done multiple
large composition projects for a major textbook publisher, writing
children's music of all things. I've produced radio spots, and
mastered peoples projects. I've written articles for Recording
Magazine, Berklee Today (the alumni magazine) and Cakewalk News, their
email newsletter.
You wont find Berklee grad friends of mine on the brag list either.
One just recently ended a gig as the bass player for Chuck Loeb.
Another bass player friend tours with Brian McKnight. Two friends who
are business partners and composers have had songs in Billboards top
100 charts. And, I just went a few weeks ago to hear one of them play
with his new jazz trio, something he is doing on the side.
I can go on and on. Another alumni I know is singing backup for EWF.
Not all the grads are asking "you want fries with that". Go to school,
stick it out. Make contacts that will last a lifetime. Sacrifice. What
you plan to have happen may not, but what does happen may be just as
good.
Michael Nickolas
www.studionineproductions.com
Tom Walls
says...
Yeah, but when "widening your intellectual horizons" puts you in debt to
the tune of $60-130,000, it may make you a little anxious about your
post graduate job opportunities. One might be better off getting a job
and a library card.
Kurt Shapiro
"bob r" <Someo...@whatever.com> wrote in message
news:BF069DD7.3F69F%Someo...@whatever.com...
> in article huydnXxgdoL...@comcast.com, Kurt Shapiro at
> kurtWITHOUTT...@hoNOtmSPAMailTHANKS.com wrote on 7/22/05 12:51
> PM:
>
Joey Goldstein
Shane Bowman wrote:
>
> To those proponents of college jazz education, I have a question thats
> been on my mind. What happens to the thousands of musicians that
> graduate jazz programs every year? There are probably hundreds from the
> "name" schools alone ie Miami, Eastman, North Texas, Berklee. Then
> there are the hundreds of no name programs all over the country. Do all
> of them simply teach and play in wedding bands?
Just the better ones with a serious jones for music.
They also do sessions, shows, and jazz gigs from time to time.
The really good ones, who are so inclined, become name players or big
shots in the popular music world.
The rest drop out of music and do something else after a few years.
> The sheer number of
> jazz graduates boggles me and I cant imagine what they all do. It would
> be interesting to see statistics on what these graduates do. Anecdotal
> evidence is good too though :).
> -Shane Bowman
--
Joey Goldstein
http://www.joeygoldstein.com
joegold AT sympatico DOT ca
Kurt Shapiro
Art majors or art school grads make a living doing art? How many Math
Ph.D.'s end up as mathemeticians? How many Biology or Life Sciences grads
end up doing research or going to med school? How many Business undergrads
end up being tycoons?
For a lot of majors, there isn't even a clear career path. What do
Economics majors end up doing? Psychology? Sociology? Language Studies?
How many Communications majors end up reporting the 6:00 news?
Sometimes even Engineering grads can't find a gig in their area of
specialty.
"Shane Bowman" <coltra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1122015880.7...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> To those proponents of college jazz education, I have a question thats
> been on my mind. What happens to the thousands of musicians that
> graduate jazz programs every year? There are probably hundreds from the
> "name" schools alone ie Miami, Eastman, North Texas, Berklee. Then
> there are the hundreds of no name programs all over the country. Do all
> of them simply teach and play in wedding bands? The sheer number of
Kurt Shapiro
"Joey Goldstein" <nos...@nowhere.net> wrote in message
news:42E12FD2...@nowhere.net...
glen
education fields that isn't just instrumental tuition. There are large
scale govt funded schemes to get dissaffected youth, community groups,
kids, old people, all sorts involved in the arts as a forum for all
sorts of social initiatives. The sort of work I do a lot is
songwriting and recording projects with these sorts of people as well
as working as a resident musician in schools. All this sort of stuff
is well payed and incredibly rewarding. I don't gig much at all
anymore but all my work is about making and enthusing and proselysing
music in a space in (most times),where im there simply because i'm a
creative person who wants to spread it.
g
pmfan57
considering they're one of the best known.
Paul Kirk
Shapiro" <kurtWITHOUTT...@hoNOtmSPAMailTHANKS.com> wrote:
> How many English or Journalism majors end up writing for a living? How many
> Art majors or art school grads make a living doing art? How many Math
> Ph.D.'s end up as mathemeticians?
about 10% in the US, if one defines a mathematician as someone who
publishes mathematics beyond their PhD. thesis subject.
PK
Derek
are doing some form of music full-time or you are out of it all
together. As someone with a business degree and a full-time business
gig, I am studying jazz on the side, teach a couple nights of lessons
out of my house, and have a weekly playing gig at my church. I am
currently working up enough tunes to be able to do solo guitar a couple
of times per month at a local eatery. Does it have to be all or
nothing? My day job pays for my ability to pursue music.
Joey Goldstein
I figured the OP was wondering how many music school grads are making a
living as full-time musicians. *That*, to at least some degree, is an
either-or thing. But of course there is a grey area.
My feeling is that either the OP has naive expectations about what it's
supposed to mean to be a music school graduate or the opposite, a jaded
view of what it means to be a music school graduate. The truth is
somewhere in the middle.
Music schools don't turn out great musicians.
Great musicians (even just plain good ones) turn themselves out and may
decide to go to a music school as part of their path.
FirstAlternate
A guy I knew in high school went on to Berklee. He works at the Post
Office.
oasysco
related to our fieldwith philosophy, history, English, business, and
other degrees. I am one of few at work who has a CS degree. I went to a
party hosted by one of my old profs once with my wife. When I
re-intro'ed byself to the prof and he asked what I was doing nowadays,
he exclaied, "at least, a graduate working in the field of his
degree!". I thought thta was funny, but apparently, as this thread
shows, it's not funny because it's not true for many, maybe most
people.
Greg
Geordie F.O. Kelly
it may or may not be, but my experience has been nothing short of
incredible. I wasn't sure at first because I am the last person on earth
you'd expect to end up in this gig, but it has worked out well thus far (8
years later). I joined after getting a BM in music theory from a no-name
school (East Carolina University), and a Master of Arts in music theory/jazz
studies from another no-name school (U of Kentucky). The Navy Bands offer
good pay twice a month and benefits, plus upward mobility. Plus, I can and
do stay busy with gigs on the outside (and I can be choosy if I want to),
and I am pursuing my recording career simultaneously as well. I would not
be completely honest if I didn't say that there are some things that you
have to deal with that aren't exactly optimal, but I've never had a job of
any sort in my entire life that didn't fit that description. I can do 20
years and get a great retirement package, and then I'll head to a state
college/university program to put my degrees to work for me while pursuing
another 15-20 years and hopefully a state pension (while still gigging and
recording) . All that for playing music full time (as the Navy program
does). I struggled through the same questions that you have too, but
looking back I'm glad that I chose to stick to it, even though at the time
it was tough. I took the Bob R. philosophy; I love it, so I'm gonna do it
no matter what. Just some thoughts, and another option that you may
consider at some point down the road.
--
Geordie F.O. Kelly
Guitar Instructor/Jazz Improvisation Instructor
Navy School of Music
http://www.geordiekelly.com
http://www.heritageguitar.com/artists/
"Derek" <de...@ycoaoffice.com> wrote in message
news:1122064120.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)
> To those proponents of college jazz education, I have a question thats
> been on my mind. What happens to the thousands of musicians that
> graduate jazz programs every year? There are probably hundreds from the
> "name" schools alone ie Miami, Eastman, North Texas, Berklee. Then
> there are the hundreds of no name programs all over the country. Do all
> of them simply teach and play in wedding bands? The sheer number of
> jazz graduates boggles me and I cant imagine what they all do. It would
> be interesting to see statistics on what these graduates do. Anecdotal
> evidence is good too though :).
> -Shane Bowman
>
As others have mentioned, a college degree is just a ticket to the
corporate world. An entry ticket. I've worked at a very large global
company (ING), a mid-sized software company, and some other spots. At
all of them, the main thing was getting in the door and then busting
your ass and having a brain. College degrees don't seem to qualify
someone as having a brain, it seems. So many people in the position to
hire someone have experience with music that in many instances a music
degree would be a plus. I would certainly though think that the
applicant must demonstrate some business-specific skills on his/her
resume, such as computer/software skills, or whatever.
I went to college late, at age 23. I had to pick a major after my first
year, so I picked Secondary Education with a concentration in English. I
never read a book from cover to cover during those years. And I knew in
my heart I didn't like being around kids. My required student teaching
gig confirmed that. So I wound up getting a job right out of college
with a large company as a "Training Assistant", which was a job where I
made copies of training guides, sent out emails to potential corporate
students, etc. Basically a corporate gopher. I realized that spending
sometimes 6+ hours per day at the copier just wasn't so cool. And unlike
90% of my colleagues in the business world with college degrees, it
seems I had a brain (not sure if I still have one left). So I started
working extra hours and learning the material in those books I was
copying all day. Long story short...a break came up and within 6 months
I was promoted twice. My degree has nothing to do with what I do now.
And with the exception of engineers, teachers, accountants, and comp
sci/math types and the like, I don't find that many people have stayed
in the field of their degrees. Think about it - some of these very broad
degrees are really pointless - "Business Management"? As if you are
going to get a job right out of school as a manager! Where? McDonalds?
By all means get a degree if you can. But I wouldn't be the least bit
concerned with what the degree is in. Unless you want to get into a
field that is extremely closed to those who don't have related degrees,
such as accounting or engineering. As Greg alluded to, even non comp-sci
grads can find themselves in a comp sci position so long as they have
and can demonstrate the skills.
mark
markr
with respect and dignity. The corporate world provides career paths
that are organized and thoughtfully planned out. "
wow...that's not my experience of the corporate world at all. They
flush people out everyday. Things are on an upswing now but you have to
watch out, especially if you're getting into your late 40s. It's rough
out there.
Mark R
ken
> MBA's make good livings in the 9 to 5 business world, They're treated
> with respect and dignity. The corporate world provides career paths
> retirement are a given.
Wow, it must be nice up there in Maine. I should send up all my
unemployed (over-qualified) buddies up to Maine.
I don't have an MBA, but as far as I know there is no 9 to 5 for many
of them...
I've been in the corporate world too, and career paths are not that
organized or thoughtfully planned out from what I've seen.
But that might be because I worked in New York City and Tokyo, both
very intense, cut-throat markets for business...
Ken
David Raleigh Arnold
>> but no stats or survey results on what all their grads are doing now.
>
> I'd be sort of surprised if any college had those on their website.
>
> Unless they happen to have an army of interns with nothing better to do
> than survey alumni.
They all survey alumni, to get their money. All. daveA
Max Leggett
One job I had they went through the ranks and "offered" early
retirement to everyone who was 57 or more, with very very few
exceptions. One of the things that kicks in aganst older workers with
pension benefits is the actual amount of pension $ that have to be set
aside. For a 25 year old worker it's next to nada, on the assumption
that it'll grow over the next 40 years, so it's just a bookkkeeping
entry. Once someone gets into their mid-to late-40s the amount that
has to be actually set aside - not just a bookkeeping entry - gets
downright nasty from a bottom line view. There are corporations all
over, like Ford and GM, with uncovered pension liabilities that
threaten to bankrupt them, and those liabilities scare the bejeezus
out of everyone. You'd be smart to negotiate a higher salary and no
pension and invest the extra money yoursellf: that way you don't look
like a burden to the finance side. You'd be _really_ smart to marry a
beautiful heiress, and once I figure that one out I'll let you have
the details.
markr
_ya_wanna@mail.com jeffbonny
>This thread seems to be falling into an either or solution. Either you
>are doing some form of music full-time or you are out of it all
>together.
Hmmmm....
I'm a fairly successful stage lighting designer and I don't believe
that if I hadn't spent ten years playing bass full time that I'd have
the artistic/musical chops to do what I do so successfully. In
addition to small theatre and corporate work I light a lot of really
good musical acts (Dave Holland, Terence Blanchard, Fabulous T-birds,
Bill Frisell, John Hiatt, Toots & The Maytals, Daniel Lanois, Kathleen
Edwards are a few of the highlights of the last couple of months).
What makes me good at lighting a particular band are things I learned
were important as a player: adequate technical knowledge of my
equipment, strong knowledge of various musical literatures, the
ability to anticipate what's coming up in music I don't know, knowing
how to get to and compliment the writers intended musical point, the
ability to read what an audience wants and will tolerate and a burning
desire to make a personal but appropriate to the circumstance artistic
statement.
I still average about four playing gigs a month. If my mortgage were
paid off I'm sure I'd do more but my professional life is still very
much centered around musical performance even if it ain't always me
doin' the performing.
As for school the knowledge I got in three years of music school that
enabled me to get better playing gigs and the contacts and lasting
friendships I established made it very worthwhile for me.
jeffbonny
van.bc.ca
markr
jazz graduates boggles me and I cant imagine what they all do.
A lot of them marry people who make money.
Joe Finn
> Another thing, in case I came off the wrong way I'm not trying to be
> negative about jazz ed, I'm a hs senior whos probably going to north
> texas next fall and trying to wort some of this stuff out myself.
I've been in touch with a couple dozen or so of the people I went to college
with over the years. I graduated with a bachelor's in 1975. The ones I've
had contact with are all in music as teachers and players.
I can relate to your feelings of doubt and insecurity. During my senior year
I felt the same way because although I had become pretty good at playing the
student game, I had no idea as to what it might take to earn a dollar as a
real musician. This increased my anxiety considerably. My conclusion is what
you are feeling is pretty normal and it's more like concern and uncertainty
about the future and less like negativity. .....................joe
--
Visit me on the web www.joefinn.net
Joe Finn
"Derek" <de...@ycoaoffice.com> wrote in message
news:1122064120.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
I think your story typifies the profile of a great many people. A good
number of the participants in this newsgroup for example are pursuing music
as something beyond their regular employment. Music can be a satisfying
avocation as you describe. I'm sure you are correct in calling the all or
nothing concept into question.
The extent to which your day job pays for your ability to pursue music is an
interesting point. Some guys with more money than they know what to do with
get into sports cars or horse racing as a hobby. If your pockets were deep
enough you could buy a winning thoroughbred or maybe a real fast Porsche.
I'm not sure what the musical parallel would be. You could buy a real nice
guitar. Or perhaps hire out a studio and bring in some ringers to make you
sound good. You can buy management and publicity services too. Get your tune
on the radio!! Would a world tour be out of the question?
Probably not. It's like the old joke about how to make a million dollars
playing jazz.
Start with two million. 8-) ............joe
FirstAlternate
> shows, it's not funny because it's not true for many, maybe most
> people.
>
>
Well, it was true for me as well. I got a business degree in the early
seventies and went into the service immediately. While home on leave I ran
into one of my classmates who was managing a McDonalds. He said thats all
there was at the time and he was one of the few of us who actually had a
job. So when I was discharged, I got a degree in another field in which I
now work.
The difference for my friend, the Berklee grad, was that he never had a plan
other than music as a living. When that didn't happen he took what he could
find. Going to a performing arts school is great, but you gotta have a fall
back plan to feed the kids.
Mr.Will
Mr.Will
"Clifford Golson" <no-ac...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:tC5Ee.11872$Zx3.8642@trndny05...
> They're all working at Starbucks, Home Depot and Barnes and Noble.
> The really lucky ones are working for UPS.
>
> CG
>
>
> "Shane Bowman" <coltra...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1122015880.7...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Bob Agnew
package delivery service, while most other carriers won't hire musicians
;=}}. What the hell, Wes drove a milk truck!
cl...@claymoore.com
Shane Bowman wrote:
> To those proponents of college jazz education, I have a question thats
> been on my mind. What happens to the thousands of musicians that
> graduate jazz programs every year? There are probably hundreds from the
> "name" schools alone ie Miami, Eastman, North Texas, Berklee. Then
> there are the hundreds of no name programs all over the country. Do all
> of them simply teach and play in wedding bands? The sheer number of
> jazz graduates boggles me and I cant imagine what they all do. It would
> be interesting to see statistics on what these graduates do. Anecdotal
> evidence is good too though :).
> -Shane Bowman
Hi Shane,
I can offer a few possible explanations.
1. Most "music schools" don't teach their students any business or
marketing classes.
2. Just because you have a degree in it doesn't mean you can do it.
There are folks with doctorates teaching at colleges who can't play.
3. Lots of music students don't have clear career goals.
4. Our culture is not particularly accepting or supportive of people
doing the arts as careers. It's assumed if you're a performer that
you're doing it as a hobby when you're not doing your "day job." Taking
that plunge and trying to be a full-time jazz player is tough.
5. Many players are probably working playing other styles of music.
Clay Moore
http://www.claymoore.com
cl...@claymoore.com
FirstAlternate wrote:
> The difference for my friend, the Berklee grad, was that he never had a plan
> other than music as a living. When that didn't happen he took what he could
> find. Going to a performing arts school is great, but you gotta have a fall
> back plan to feed the kids.
And what type of "plan" did he have for a music career? How good a
player was he? How good did he *want* to be? How hard did he work? Did
he take it seriously as a business? I'm asking these things because the
mistake a lot of musicians, myself included for many years, is assuming
it's going to "happen." My opinion is if you aren't very proactive very
little will "happen," especially these days.
Clay Moore
http://www.claymoore.com
Mr.Will
I agree with you Clay - lots of musicians out there who are playing for
their "art" and not neccessarily with the idea of making a living from doing
it. Naturally when they are broke they can become bitter etc. and even feel
playing better makes them a more valuable asset in "business".
Have to say my organisation Planet Sound has been having business
consultancy these past few weeks, and its the usual story - alot of the time
it is the ego that stops people being successful. Not ego in a bad way, but
the ego in terms of something that someone really wants that stops them
succeeding in a business sense. Eg wanting only to play "giant steps" or
standards and expecting the public to simply drop everything and pay you
very well for playing what YOU want.
I did hear even Kenny G had some decent albums before he got commerical, so
perhaps its true that bland music is the way to go in terms of commerical
success and financial reward. If the Kenny G story is true he may make
"serious" jazz albums when he's made his $$ - wouldnt that be great if it
were true?
I'm sure there is a way to make great music and a great living too - but
like you say Clay, it has to be done with a proper and rational plan, rather
than the own ego, and accepting the compromises as an adult, eg "more jazz
which I love may equal less pay" or "more elevator music will equal more
money etc". Just the same with photography I guess. All the photographers
want their own studio to make abstract images that challenge the viewer and
people maybe won't "get", but how many people will pay $1,000 for that
photographer to do their wedding? I used that example just because often its
easier to see people holding themselves back if you look at a field that is
nothing to do with your own. My guess is the successful photographer learns
how to balance the income (wedding photos for example) with getting closer
to his goal (studio where he works on abstract images for example) rather
than hope his dream will come off totally without compromise.
Mr.Will
<cl...@claymoore.com> wrote in message
news:1122175272....@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
Keith Freeman
> graduate jazz programs every year?
Geyn (I'm just back from a summer course with him) was telling me recently
that this is why they decided at the Royal Conservatory in The Hague that
teaching skills should be an important part of the curriculum.
-Keith
Music samples, tips, Portable Changes at
http://home.wanadoo.nl/keith.freeman/
E-mail: keith DOT freeman AT wanadoo DOT nl
David Raleigh Arnold
> I'm sure you weren't picking on Berklee, but the point is well taken
> considering they're one of the best known.
You're right, I wasn't, but I want to be harsh in a slightly
different way. You hear noise about how the kids aren't
going into science or engineering the way they are in China
and India, and we need more graduates or our country is
doomed. Well, right now graduates in the sciences can't
get jobs, and no one should go into those fields unless they
want to work in China or India.
No one can be sure that a degree in music is any less useless
than a degree in math or science. We have a serious, probably
fatal problem, but people getting the right degrees ain't it.
mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)
We have a serious, probably
> fatal problem, but people getting the right degrees ain't it.
> daveA
>
What's the problem? People aren't doing enough of your "tech" ? lol
mark
Reno De Stefano
you can play the instrument. But today's reality is much different.
In today's scene you'll find many young players with Bachelors and Masters
degree who can also play very, very well. The degree is just a passport,
ultimately, you got to be able to play jazz at a high level. The reality is
that when you apply for a full-time College-level or tenure-track
University-level teaching job, they look for an outstanding performer with
extensive professional experience, with recordings and with degrees (Masters
and Doctoral).
Reno De Stefano
Guitarist/Professor
University Of Montreal
http://mapageweb.umontreal.ca/destefar
"David Raleigh Arnold" <darn...@cox.net> a écrit dans le message de news:
pan.2005.08.30....@cox.net...
Jacques
heart :)
If one is happy playing...good, If one is happy playing, and making
others happy...better.
David Raleigh Arnold
> David Raleigh Arnold wrote:
> We have a serious, probably
>> fatal problem, but people getting the right degrees ain't it. daveA
>>
>>
> What's the problem?
The problem is the lack of employment for qualified people in
all sorts of professions and trades. daveA
mark (sixstringtheoryDOTcom)
> The problem is the lack of employment for qualified people in
> all sorts of professions and trades. daveA
>
Not where I live. I work in an field, and currently an industry, that is
highly susceptible to the economy. In years 2002, 2003, and the
beginning of 2004, there were no jobs out there. Now I get calls/emails
at least once a week about new, well-paying jobs.
The only guys still spouting "the economy is bad and there are no jobs"
are the guys still on the Kerry bandwagon.