What next?
Pt
This could be helpful to young players who are considering playing
music as their careers.
I have always wanted to play music as a career but I had to decide at
a young age what to do.
At the time I was a union electrician apprentice and I played guitar
at gigs, parties and other functions as often as possible.
If I chose to continue with my electrical career I was pretty much
guaranteed a good wage, insurance, jobs and a good retirement.
If I chose to play music as my career I was guaranteed nothing.
As much as I would have preferred to play music I chose doing the day
job.
Sometimes I kick myself in the butt because of that choice.
I could have spent my life doing what I love to do.
Other times I think that it could have been a very rough life with
nothing to look forward to as far as retirement and social security
go.
The world has changed considerably since I made that decision many
years ago.
If I had it to do again what would I do?
I don't know.
What are the advantages and disadvantages to playing music as a
career?
Pt
Spats
Unless you are at the very top like Joe Pass it can be grueling. The money
isn't good, I tried to purchase a home at that time and found that my credit
risk factor was one step up from migrant fruit picker. In today's world,
let's say you work seven nights a week at about $100.00 a night your yearly
gross would be $36,000.00 a year. It would be difficult (depending on which
part of the country you live in) to; own a home, drive a nice car, maintain
a family, send the kids to college, have all the insurances needed, or
simply to survive. You probably made more than that in your "first" year of
being an electrician. You also have to take any and all jobs offered you.
If you turn one down the job the person who called you probably won't call
again. I've played Banjo at clothing store openings, fashion shows,
department stores, plays, (played Guys and Dolls for three damn months,) all
things that I didn't expect when I started playing as a wee lad. In the
meantime you end up teaching to supplement your income. You might find one
student out of 100 who makes your teaching rewarding. The contact thing is
another aspect. Every day I was on the phone hustling gigs. I would go out
of town on a small tour and lose all my contacts only to start all over when
I returned. The positive thing is your chops are up and you are "making a
living in music." I'm sure you have heard the story about the man at the
circus who followed the elephant and cleaned up the dung, when someone asked
him why he didn't leave this disgusting job, he replied, "What, and leave
show business."
After I stopped trying to make a living at music I found I was truly freed
up. I could pick and choose the music jobs that I wanted to do, I didn't
have to play with people who I felt were substandard, and when I played
there wasn't any limitation on my choice of songs. I then started playing
three or four days a week and truly enjoying the guitar. That was about 18
years ago. I still play two to three days a week. I found that leaving
music as a vocation and replacing it as an avocation freed me up
tremendously. I now enjoy it more and follow my own dictates, and my chops
are still up.
One man's story
Spats
"Pt" <no...@noplace.com> wrote in message
news:hl0kj0p37m8js4it3...@4ax.com...
Pt
wrote:
>One man's story
>
>Spats
Thank you Spats.
Pt
Jack A. Zucker
unless you're doing other kinds of music ...
--
Experience a revolutionary way to approach the instrument.
Introducing Sheets of Sound for Guitar
"Let the music govern the way you play guitar instead of the guitar
governing the way you play music!"
Check it out at:
http://www.sheetsofsound.net
"Spats" <sp...@dslextreme.com> wrote in message
news:10jk416...@corp.supernews.com...
Pt
<j...@jackzucker.com> wrote:
>Of course if you're a jazz musician, you're probably not making $100/night
>unless you're doing other kinds of music ...
What other kinds of music pay that much?
Pt
cmaj7dmin7
LNC
Marc Sabatella
> career?
The advantage is you get to concentrae more fully on what you love -
music - rather than constantly wonder what it would be like to have that
luxury. The disadvantage is that being a full-time musician can mean
dealing with the business of music more than the music itself, which
isn't anyone's idea of fun. Also, no one wants to hear you complain
about it, because you're doing what you love. And you end up taking
gigs you'd much rather not take, just to make the rent/mortgage payment.
And sometimes you don't quite make it even so...
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Mondoslug1
>>Of course if you're a jazz musician, you're probably not making $100/night
>>unless you're doing other kinds of music ...
>
>
>
>What other kinds of music pay that much?
>
>Pt
I'm not sure if this is tongue 'n cheek or not.
Pt
wrote:
Ya never know... :-)
thom_j
snip
> In today's world, let's say you work seven nights a week at about $100.00
> a night your yearly gross would be $36,000.00 a year. It would be
> difficult (depending on which part of the country you live in) to; own a
> home, drive a nice car, maintain a family, send the kids to college, have
> all the insurances needed, or simply to survive.
fwiw:
Hell it's hard to live on $36k(gross & boy is this gross for y2k+) without
any real (family with children) financial debts in our area, and imho I dont
live in a high rent district... Plus I own my own home & I own 2 cars..
datz my 2p... thom_j.
--
A Short Look Into My Legacy
http://www.n2rif.com/alexis/alexis_1.htm
Steve
Pageant franchises, etc. These are Showtunes and Pop Standards like "Ice
Castles," theme from "Cats," ad nauseum.
I know guys who play Soul and dance music that get $175 each a couple nights
a week.
About one $100 job a month was my peak back in the 1980's.
I get about one or two a year now.
The rest of my playing is Jazz for tops $50 as a sideman. Usually more like
$20-$30 + dinner, maybe three nights a week on a good week. More as a
leader, but not much.
This area is saturated with musicians. The club owners suck. There are
always cheaper players available here. The club owners could care less about
quality.
I hear it's the same in many places now.
I also taught extensively, but gave it up. I'm not patient enough.
All the bass players here can play guitar better than I do, but I show up on
time so get calls.
I don't know anybody (and there are guitar geniuses on Jazz locally) who
makes more money annually than this local average, except Joe Sharino's
sidemen (dance and Oldies) and they just work more often in a pretty good
(kinda locked down) situation with Joe at The Coconut Grove ballroom.
Since the dot com market tanked, the corporate parties have almost all dried
up.
Weddings can be had for $1200 for a given band, but they are rare for
musicians as the DJ's have kinda whittled that stuff away.
-Steve "yes I have a day job" Yetter, Santa Cruz,CA-
<no...@noplace.com> wrote in message
news:qs5kj0llkllvahrfe...@4ax.com...
Omcha
certain you have a working wife!
Jess
Jeff Lange
districts. Reasonable pay, music all day, benefits and summers off. You
asked the question, "If I had it to do again what would I do?" I know what
I would do.
Jeff Lange
www.JazzSelect.com
"Omcha" <om...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040904204345...@mb-m18.aol.com...
Lumpy
> > Of course if you're a jazz musician,
> > you're probably not making $100/night
> > unless you're doing other kinds of
> > music ...
Pt wrote:
> What other kinds of music pay that much?
I meet guys in country bands all the time.
Typical story goes something like this:
"I'm in a band that plays at the C&W bar
across town. I'm pretty good on bass,
I've been playing almost 2 years. Our
guitarist is really good. He's
been playing almost 5 years."
I ask them about the gig and the pay:
"We work 4 nights a week 8 to midnight.
We get paid $2500 per week."
For a 4 pc band that's $150+ per night.
Maybe less if the leader gets a double.
Not bad for a guy that's been playing
2 years.
I play in wedding duos for $100/hr if I'm
the side man. $200/hr if I'm the leader.
Country Clubs, private parties, corporate
gigs are usually $1000+ for the entire
gig/band whether it's 1 piece or 4 piece.
Lumpy
--
In Your Ears for 40 Years
http://www.lumpymusic.com
George Prager
I started doing music full time nine years ago, at the age of 41. Have not
regretted it yet, although there are those "down" periods when I wish the
phone would ring a little more frequently. Here's a typical example of my
summer schedule (this past week)
Tuesday: an out of town cafe/resto gig with a jazz trio. Two sets, netted
$160 plus dinner
Wednesday: same trio, a fairly upscale local restaurant that features jazz
bands: made $75, plus a free drink
Thursday: a local coffee house gig (duo), two sets, made $60, including tips
Friday: an out of town wedding, made $250 for a fairly long night. If I was
the leader on this gig (I am on most gigs), I would have made $400 - $500
Off tonight (yee-haa)
Sunday: a local brunch gig, will net $130 for three sets, plus a nice meal.
This week I also wrote a short piece of music for a play (will be performed
in October) - this will pay about $300.
Total for the week: $975. But I must emphasise that this is much higher
than my annual average. This summer has been unusually productive. The main
downside for me is the continual hustling, cold-calling, marketing etc....in
reality, little time is left over for actually writing and practising. I did
use to teach a lot but finally gave up after many years of exasperation!!
At this point (51 years old) would not consider any kind of day job - I like
working alone during the day, spending time with my wife when not working,
visiting with my grown daughters and planning my days as I see fit. Then
playing music at night and enjoying it about 75% of the time
G.P.
Gerry
Prager <gtrvox...@canoemail.com> wrote:
> At this point (51 years old) would not consider any kind of day job - I like
> working alone during the day, spending time with my wife when not working,
> visiting with my grown daughters and planning my days as I see fit. Then
> playing music at night and enjoying it about 75% of the time.
I'd never reject such a life style based on what I'd consider the best
or most optimum way to live a life, certainly. It sounds great.
But to get a fuller view, it's only fair to ask if you have secondary
sources of income. It would make more understandable the comfort
and/or safety factor you feel in this approach.
Many musicians making this kind of money (though you mention it's a
pretty good summer--who knows it could keep up for a few years!), don't
usually carry full insurance on their own. So are there additional
health benefits coming from elsewhere, that if diminished might make
your current set up seem less self-propelling?
--
Invest wisely: Over the past 75 years, stocks have averaged annual gains of 2.3
percent under GOP administrations, compared with 9.5 under Democratic ones.
-- Jerry Heaster
Pt
<gtrvox...@canoemail.com> wrote:
>At this point (51 years old) would not consider any kind of day job - I like
>working alone during the day, spending time with my wife when not working,
>visiting with my grown daughters and planning my days as I see fit. Then
>playing music at night and enjoying it about 75% of the time
>
>G.P.
>
Good for you George.
It sounds like you are doing good and enjoying yourself.
Pt
CB
> like some other posters have said - obviously, there are pluses and minuses.
>
> I started doing music full time nine years ago, at the age of 41. Have not
> regretted it yet, although there are those "down" periods when I wish the
> phone would ring a little more frequently. Here's a typical example of my
> summer schedule (this past week)
That's an interesting tale, George. Would be good to hear more
if you feel like it, eg.: what made you take up music f/t at that age?
What were you doing before? How accomplished/experienced a musician were
you already at the time? And, most puzzlingly: how did you manage to
persuade your wife that this wasn't due cause for divorce ;)
Tom Lippincott
news:5OednYZhY-9...@comcast.com...
like I'm rich compared to before I started teaching college. My accountant
was even ragging on me for making too much money last year. I guess it's
all relative. I live alone, don't have any debts, pay next to nothing in
rent, and I don't exactly live a lavish lifestyle, so I feel like I haven't
had to worry much about money the last few years. I'm sure things would be
different if I was paying a morgage on a 4 bedroom house, maybe had other
unexpected debts or bills, and was supporting a family, but come on, guys;
there are LOTS of people making minimum wage in this country who have a
family to support. They're making it work somehow (hopefully.) For all of
my 20s and early 30s, my income hovered in the $20k range, and my big goal
was always to break the $30k ceiling. I thought I'd finally graduated to
"grownup." Are you telling me I'm still a starving musician?
--
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
8 string guitar audio samples at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/tomlippincottmusic.htm
Tom Lippincott
Pt <no...@noplace.com> wrote in message
news:hl0kj0p37m8js4it3...@4ax.com...
> The world has changed considerably since I made that decision many
> years ago.
> If I had it to do again what would I do?
> I don't know.
>
> What are the advantages and disadvantages to playing music as a
> career?
>
> Pt
I copied and pasted this from my website:
The following is a questionaire that someone posted on RMMGJ and the answers
I gave. I thought it might be beneficial for other young people who are
contemplating a career in music:
What kind of educational requirements are generally accepted for people
attempting to become a pro musician? Envision someone in the upper echelons,
here, as say a symphony musician or something else, where education is a
large factor in their career.
This would vary a lot. The bottom line is pretty much always going to be;
can you play? can you do what's required for the gig? I think in the
classical field there is more significance placed on educational background.
Someone who has gone through a highly respected conservatory may receive
more attention initially than someone who went to community college.
In jazz and to some extent in popular music, there is a little of a factor
with education; there are a few respected schools that are known for jazz
and a lot of people may be willing to give more of a chance to a Berklee or
U of Miami graduate than someone with no educational background. This would
depend on the the individual, however; some people tend to feel like
education stifles creativity and might actually be prejudiced against
someone who's been through music school. I went to U of North Texas and U of
Miami and I've noticed that wherever I go, when I meet another musician who
has been to one of these schools it sort of gives me a little bit of an
automatic "in" with them.
Also, what kind of education would you recommend for a highschooler such as
myself pre-college.
You didn't mention what style or styles of music you are interested in
pursuing, but I'm assuming that since you posted this to a jazz guitar
newsgroup that you are at least somewhat interested in jazz, so my comments
should be taken with this in mind.
I would definitely recommend finding a good private teacher to get you
started. If you plan on going to music school it may help to find someone
who went to school who can sort of let you know what to expect (it would be
even more helpful to find, if you can, someone who went to the school you
want to go to.)
Music school has become more and more the norm for aspiring jazz musicians,
but it's not for everyone. I know several excellent musicians who flunked
out or dropped out of music school. In my mind, one of the best things about
my experience in school was the opportunity to be around a bunch of other
people who were working on the same thing I was; I learned as much from my
fellow students as I did from my teachers. Plus, there is a sense of
camaraderie and even friendly comptetion that can be very inspiring in this
formative time in your life.
What kind of education does a musician undergo after their formal studies
have concluded?
For a musician, education never ends. That's one of the great things about
being a musician; you never reach the "end of the line"; you can always
improve.
What are the advantages and rewards of being a musician as well as the
disadvantages or hardships.
The rewards of being a musician are that you (presumably) are doing
something you truly love and are passionate about to make your living. I
personally believe that music is a great spiritual and healing force and
feel that my role in society is very important. It brings me a lot of
happiness to think that I may be helping to enlighten and bring others to a
higher level of being through my music (that may sound presumptuous or even
pretentious, but it's what I believe).
There are some pretty major disadvantages to being a musician, including:
relatively low pay (for most musicians, that is; unless you're a "star".)
no steady income or guarantee of work (you sometimes don't know where next
month's rent is coming from)
lack of respect for your job from a lot of people who aren't musicians
(people who don't realize how many hours of work it takes to learn an
instrument, think you must play just for fun, don't realize that you might
not actually enjoy playing "Freebird" three times in one night, ect.) People
who are in positions of power over you (club owners, booking agents, record
companies, ect.) try to take advantage of you because you are an artist and
not a business person.
Also, keep in mind that although you are an "artist", the moment you start
playing for money what you do becomes a "business" and art has to, by
definition, take a back seat to the "bottom line". Most of the folks who run
the music business are going to look at you strictly as a potential income
producer; "can this guy get people in the door to my club and buying
drinks?", "can this guy sell records?", ect.
What are some challenges that one would face on the road to his dream of
being a pro musician?
There are lots and lots of people who want to be "stars" and/or professional
musicians, so there is a lot of competition at all levels. You may become
discouraged when you feel like things aren't going your way, particularly
when you see others who you may feel are lesser musicians than you who have
achieved commercial success.
Keep in mind that music is an art form and there are no absolutes. It's easy
to become bitter and discouraged, but to me the idea to being happy as a
musician is to never forget the wonder you felt the first time you picked up
a guitar (or whatever instrument).
Please tell me about your personal experiences, about how you reached your
personal level of success, as well as what influenced you guys to decide to
begin this lifelong journey.
Since I first heard the Beatles at the age of thirteen I was hooked; I knew
from that moment that I wanted to play music for a living.
I started out interested in rock, then became interested in jazz and
classical music and decided to go to music school. After music school I
basically was thrown out in the real world and had to start making a living.
I have very gradually over the years become established where I live and
developed enough of a reputation among my fellow musicians that I get called
for enough work to make a comfortable living.
Making a living as a musician is very dependent on word of mouth and
reputation among the musical community. Some musicians are very aggressive
and have a knack for business, but many don't. The ones who do tend to
become good at self promotion and get work that way. I am actually a very
shy and reclusive person and have pretty much had to rely on the word of
mouth thing, so I probably fall toward the opposite end of the spectrum.
Are there any general requirements that employers would look for in hiring
musicians? Please be specific, such as X years of college, X studies, etc.
Once again, there will rarely be a time when you'll be asked to show your
educational credentials at an audition or when you get called for a gig; the
proof is in the pudding, as one might say. The one possible exception is I
heard that at U of M they are now giving graduates a business card size copy
of their diploma to flash at gigs and auditions. I'm not sure how effective
this idea has been, though.
If you want to teach, as many do, that's when a degree becomes a necessity.
If you want to teach elementary through high school music you can major in
music education in college, and get a job with a bachelors degree (though
more and more it's becoming common for such teachers to have masters
degrees). To teach at a college you'll need a masters degree (or even a
doctorate). With that said, a lot of accomplished jazz musicians who don't
have degrees, but are well known and respected in their field get jobs at
universities as something like an "artist in residence", which is basically
just a teacher who doesn't have a degree.
Something I heard a long time ago and I've always agreed with is that one
shouldn't become a professional musician unless you couldn't possibly
imagine yourself doing anything else. For me it was never really a question
of "will I be a musician". I knew I had to and that there was no other
choice for me. During rough financial times I've actually tried to get other
jobs and could never get hired doing anything else; I really don't think I'm
cut out to be anything but a musician.
How is the salary, and more specifically, how much do you make?
The last few years I've made between about $20,000 to $26,000. I'm not
getting rich, but that has never really been my goal. I'm very happy.
Where could I find more information as I try to find these things out?
That's a good question; one of the reasons I decided to take the time to
reply to this questionare is that when I was a teenager I always wished that
someone could have answered some of these questions for me, but the "how" of
becoming a musician always seemed like some big secret or mystery that no
one could answer for me.
What sorta qualifications did you possess as you started out, and what
qualifications would you recommend for someone starting out...if different
;) As you progress, how do these qualifications change with your experience?
I'd say this: don't be afraid to educate yourself. Though my answers were
primarily aimed at an aspiring jazz/pop player, I think they could apply
somewhat to about any style. Also, I'd add that because as a musician you
kind of have to invent your own career, rather than having it laid out for
you by a big corporation, the more versatile you are, the more potential you
have to make money. The more different styles you can play, the more gigs
you can get; though jazz is my first love, I do gigs in styles from
classical to country.
Also, you can teach. If you are a good reader and have developed good ear
training skills you can do hire yourself out for studio sessions. You can
also learn music related skills such as recording engineering/producing,
live audio production, instrument repair, ect.
One of my teachers in college told me that there are a lot of guitar players
but not a lot of really good ones who have worked hard and "done their
homework" and that there is always room in "the business" for these kinds of
players.
Tom Lippincott
news:kIv_c.30886$7i2.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
George;
That's an inspiring story, and quite a different one from the usual doom and
gloom type you usually hear; "I busted my ass for 20 years trying to make a
living as a musician, finally came to my senses and got a real job." It's
really rare, and refreshing, to come across someone who has gone the
opposite route.
Tom Lippincott
Gerry <222...@spam.really.sucks> wrote in message
news:040920042147139811%222...@spam.really.sucks...
> In article <kIv_c.30886$7i2.1...@news20.bellglobal.com>, George
> Prager <gtrvox...@canoemail.com> wrote:
>
> > At this point (51 years old) would not consider any kind of day job - I
like
> > working alone during the day, spending time with my wife when not
working,
> > visiting with my grown daughters and planning my days as I see fit. Then
> > playing music at night and enjoying it about 75% of the time.
>
> I'd never reject such a life style based on what I'd consider the best
> or most optimum way to live a life, certainly. It sounds great.
>
> But to get a fuller view, it's only fair to ask if you have secondary
> sources of income. It would make more understandable the comfort
> and/or safety factor you feel in this approach.
>
> Many musicians making this kind of money (though you mention it's a
> pretty good summer--who knows it could keep up for a few years!), don't
> usually carry full insurance on their own. So are there additional
> health benefits coming from elsewhere, that if diminished might make
> your current set up seem less self-propelling?
>
okay let's stop beating around the bush; do you have a rich wife? heh.
BTW, for what it's worth, I've had health insurance for quite a while now,
even back when I was scraping by in the low $20k range only playing gigs (if
you haven't been following that other thread, I started teaching college
part time a couple of years ago and got a substantial income boost).
Granted, it's not great insurance (HMO) but it's something. I'd say it's
better than nothing, but sometimes I have to admit I wonder.
George Prager
waaaay too long...
Prior to entering music full time, I had already been doing music for a
couple of decades on a part time basis: weekend blues bands, lots of writing
of original music (had written a TV film score), some teaching, basically
non-stop involvement in music since the age of about 20. However, I do have
a M.A. degree in English and Linguistics and had done a fair amount of
teaching in various positions, as well as translating. My personal
circumstances nine years ago were such that huge changes were occuring
anyway and I grabbed the bull by the horns and decided to just do music full
time. It would be well-nigh impossible to go into all the different reasons.
Suffice it to say that I was also going through a divorce at the time...
My present wife is a fabulous human being who supports my music making 100%.
She makes about 50K a year which doesn't hurt either. My kids are grown and
not in need of my financial support. I have an additional income of about
$5000 a year from investments. Occasionally, I work on the odd translating
assignment and I also write the odd essay/article for a magazine - these
would not constitute any more than about 10% of my income, tops. I live in
Canada, so health insurance is not an issue (though the state of our health
_is_ definitely an issue, completely OT for here) I am also a dual citizen
and could move to anywhere in Scandinavia if my financial circumstances were
to become dire. These are my extenuating circumstances.
One thing I really did not know going into this (despite having been
involved in music for so long) was the amount of hustling that I would have
to do. My songwriting has definitely suffered, as I have expanded all my
energy on getting gigs, putting together setlists, refining my phone and
email and computer skills and "babysitting" band memebers. But as I have
already mentioned a few times - for now I am happy doing this and absolutely
cannot see myself altering my lifestyle which I have become quite accustomed
to.
Despite being a musician, I am an early riser. The other day I had to take
my car into the shop around 8AM and took the subway back home. When I saw
the crowds of people heading to work in some downtown office, a look of
resigned desperation on their faces, I thought to myself: man, any wedding
gig is better than *this*!!
Thanks for listening
G.P.
thom_j
> gosh, you're making me depressed. That's about how much I make and I feel
> like I'm rich compared to before I started teaching college. My
> accountant
> was even ragging on me for making too much money last year. I guess it's
> all relative. I live alone, don't have any debts, pay next to nothing in
> rent, and I don't exactly live a lavish lifestyle, so I feel like I
> haven't
> had to worry much about money the last few years. I'm sure things would
> be
> different if I was paying a morgage on a 4 bedroom house, maybe had other
> unexpected debts or bills, and was supporting a family, but come on, guys;
> there are LOTS of people making minimum wage in this country who have a
> family to support. They're making it work somehow (hopefully.) For all
> of
> my 20s and early 30s, my income hovered in the $20k range, and my big goal
> was always to break the $30k ceiling. I thought I'd finally graduated to
> "grownup." Are you telling me I'm still a starving musician?
Tom L.. I certainly didnt mean to cast any aspersions toward anyone...
I live on a fixed income, I own my home, its only a middle of the road
3bedroom home with a one car garage, I have no children here, & as
I stated before I have no big outside bills but(yup there is a but) there
is house taxes, house insurance, oil heat, gas/electric bills, long - local
phone bills, food, medicine, central ac, car insurance for 2cars, I also
I own both cars, and up-keep, gas, continual general up keep for my
home, and this 77'yr/old house needs some repair at this point, that I
haven't even added into all this, plus more!
I dont drink, nor smoke, I go out rarely & my only extra outside fun
spending is on low'end guitars, guitar gear and my computer. So for
me, it adds up quickly.. Of course YMMV... cheers thom_j.
JMK
news:pUP_c.103311$_h.4...@bignews3.bellsouth.net:
> Granted, it's not great insurance (HMO) but
> it's something. I'd say it's better than nothing, but sometimes I
> have to admit I wonder. --
It's amazing what pops out of the blue. I had an experience a
couple years ago that was a complete surprise and made itself
known suddenly - and I was perfectly healthy and in reasonably
good shape before then. With the insurance I had I paid ~$3000 out of
pocket to treat this (and it took all year). Without the
insurance it would have been ten times that amount, easy.
A little insurance is way better than none at all.
My 0.02.
JMK
CB
Great and inspiring story. Hope the path you've chosen continues to go
well for you.
>
> Despite being a musician, I am an early riser. The other day I had to take
> my car into the shop around 8AM and took the subway back home. When I saw
> the crowds of people heading to work in some downtown office, a look of
> resigned desperation on their faces, I thought to myself: man, any wedding
> gig is better than *this*!!
>
Absolutely.
Gerry
St. Peter at the golden gates meets a recently arrived after-lifer.
"How much money did you make in life?" he asks.
"I made 250 thousand 4 or 5 years ago," the initiate responds.
"Fantastic! What did you do for a living?" St. Peter asks.
"I was a heart surgeon."
"Welcome to heaven, my son."
The next man arrives.
"How much money did you make in life?" he asks.
"I made over 120 thousand 3 years ago," is the response.
"Pretty good! What did you do for a living?" St. Peter asks.
"I sold insurance."
"Welcome to heaven, my son."
The next man arrives.
"How much money did you make in life?" he asks.
"My last year was really great, I made 24 thousand!" he responds.
"Cool! What instrument do you play" St. Peter asks.
Gerry
<gtrvox...@canoemail.com> wrote:
> She makes about 50K a year which doesn't hurt either. My kids are
> grown and not in need of my financial support. I have an additional
> income of about $5000 a year from investments.
In all candor, when one says one would never work a straight job and
that gigging is the only feasible thing for their life and mindset,
don't you think the above data is pretty noteworthy in assessing that
perspective?
Just so there's no confusion about it, since I've been one of the very
few people that has championed the utility of specifically NOT playing
music professionally because of the way it can shape your attitudes
towards music/playing: If financial circumstances didn't demand that I
work a day job, I wouldn't be working one. I'd be gigging, though
probably far less Bar Mitsvah's, Weddings and Drunken Cowboy Jamboree's
than I did in the old days, when it was tethered to the rent and doctor
bills.
thom_j
chuckling tee'...
"Gerry"wrote:
thom_j
> couple years ago that was a complete surprise and made itself
> known suddenly - and I was perfectly healthy and in reasonably
> good shape before then. With the insurance I had I paid ~$3000 out of
> pocket to treat this (and it took all year). Without the
> insurance it would have been ten times that amount, easy.
>
> A little insurance is way better than none at all.
>
> My 0.02.
> JMK
Important fyi to one & all:
If anyone would take anything I say here seriously, heed this:
I was fatally strickin ill in 1990 and had poor health insurance.
By 1994, I had spent in excess of $350,000 for doctors bills,
meds, hospital ER trips & inpatient visits plus many tests.
I never thought my health would ever drop to such a low'ebb
but it did! So "everyone" [a] don't take your health lightly nor
[b] never carry poor health insurance nor a poor xscript plan
as it can bankrupt you.
Luckily I averted this solely due to the superb family support
I have had & still do!
a very serious tee'...
George Prager
> don't you think the above data is pretty noteworthy in assessing that
> perspective?
>
factors, the wife's income included.
I absolutely do not deny it. Nevertheless, I would still be able to continue
making a living as a musician even if I lived alone: instead of a condo, I'd
probably live in a small rented apartment and would definitely watch the
pennies much more carefully. It would still be possible but life would not
be easy.
I think that all our life circumstances are shaped by many and various
factors: luck and a good marriage (which is also luck?!) play as important a
role as hustling and working hard
G.P.
Pt
wrote:
>
>Important fyi to one & all:
>If anyone would take anything I say here seriously, heed this:
>I was fatally strickin ill in 1990 and had poor health insurance.
>By 1994, I had spent in excess of $350,000 for doctors bills,
>meds, hospital ER trips & inpatient visits plus many tests.
>I never thought my health would ever drop to such a low'ebb
>but it did! So "everyone" [a] don't take your health lightly nor
>[b] never carry poor health insurance nor a poor xscript plan
>as it can bankrupt you.
>Luckily I averted this solely due to the superb family support
>I have had & still do!
>a very serious tee'...
I'm starting to deal with hospital, ER, surgery bills myself right
now.
I don't know where it is going or who is paying what if anything yet.
Pt
Pt
Sometimes my bills exceed my income.
I gig two or three times per week and I'm lucky to make enough to pay
for my gas and a burger.
But I do it because I like it.
There is no way that I'm going back to the 9-5 (6-2:30 in my case)
grind.
I don't have all the things I wanted in life but, at least for now, I
have my health, a good family, good friends and my music.
Like the old standard says "There's no tomorrow" so I live for today.
Circumstances forced me to retire early from my trade and I took a
serious loss on my retirement income.
But I am out there gigging as often as I can and loving every minute
of it.
I only wish that I could do it for another 20 years.
Pt
Marc Sabatella
$100/night
> unless you're doing other kinds of music ...
Well, you can certainly make $100 some of the time. But not seven
nights a week. Unless you happen to be very lucky - just being good
isn't actually enough - you won't find work that pays much more than a
couple of nights a week. If you really want to work 7 nights a week,
it's going to mean taking lots of lower paying gigs. And who wants to
work that much, anyhow?
Anyhow, if you're projecting expected income from playing jazz, $700 a
week is extremely optimistic. On the other hand, most jazz musicians I
know supplement their income through teaching or from playing dance gigs
(70's top 40 covers, mostly) through the various entertainment agencies,
and I'd imagine $700 gross income per week is not far from typical.
Depending on how much teaching you do, or how many of the dance band
gigs you want to take, you can certainly get that figure higher, without
being anything remotely resembling a "star".
--------------
Marc Sabatella
ma...@outsideshore.com
The Outside Shore
Music, art, & educational materials:
http://www.outsideshore.com/
Gerry
<thom_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > A little insurance is way better than none at all.
Be sure and tell your senator how strongly you feel about that so he
can call you a communist...
Dick Onstenk
> my car into the shop around 8AM and took the subway back home. When I saw
> the crowds of people heading to work in some downtown office, a look of
> resigned desperation on their faces, I thought to myself: man, any wedding
> gig is better than *this*!!
Not for me. I find playing wedding gigs and catered affairs totally
degrading.
######
thom_j
these wrotten suckers can get away from everyone amazingly fast
& the healthcare bizz dont give a crap what your problems are or
will be as long as those bills/debts are paid and if they arent you'll
be put on their "no pay" black list, and this is No joke either!
thom_j.
thom_j
> In article <m6GdnUFVA-5...@comcast.com>, thom_j
> <thom_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> > A little insurance is way better than none at all.
>
> Be sure and tell your senator how strongly you feel about that so he
> can call you a communist...
I am not politically minded at all Gerry but if it were not for my DC
area Congressmen I'd be in deep shit right now, so I go by what is
Done! Not what is said! thom_j.
thom_j
> I have my health, a good family, good friends
These factors are really "Oh' So" important!
Especially when one has lost anyone of these!
thom_j.
Tom Lippincott
news:Xns955C5DD90C87...@216.77.188.18...
yes, of course; my "wondering" is more based on a) wondering just how
effective the modern medical establishment is at treating disease anyway,
and b) whether the quality of care I'd receive as an uninsured person is any
worse than the quality of care I'd receive as an HMO member. I've actually
heard of a lot of cases where a really excellent doctor heard of a case
where the patient needed treatment but had no insurance and couldn't pay,
and the doctor agreed to treat the patient for free. I don't think that
would happen to someone with insurance, even if it's really lame insurance.
I once knew someone who didn't have any health insurance, got really sick,
and still managed to get medical care through the county (largely for free).
The quality of the care just wasn't that good, though, and this person ended
up eventually finding other sources for treatment, including a really good
doctor, as above who completely waived his fee.
But you're right, it's probably a safe thing to have insurance even if I
don't entirely trust the doctors that would be treating me. I think it also
depends on the medical problem; some things are relatively cut and dried and
require a very standard, regimented treatment, and other things require a
much more thoughtful, individualized approach by a doctor. It's those
things that make me nervous with my current insurance situation.
Tom Lippincott
thom;
this is getting hopelessly off topic, but what would you consider to be good
health insurance? What sort of insurance did you have? Do you now feel you
would have been better off with no insurance at all, or would that have just
made things even worse for you?
Tom Lippincott
> Despite being a musician, I am an early riser. The other day I had to take
> my car into the shop around 8AM and took the subway back home. When I saw
> the crowds of people heading to work in some downtown office, a look of
> resigned desperation on their faces, I thought to myself: man, any wedding
> gig is better than *this*!!
>
> Thanks for listening
>
> G.P.
>
>
heh! I couldn't agree more. Except for the early riser part; if left to my
druthers, I rarely get up before noon.
George Prager
>
> Not for me. I find playing wedding gigs and catered affairs totally
> degrading.
>
> ######
>
I just played a wedding gig this past Friday. We had a superb young
keyboardist and an equally great young sax player in the band. Man, we
cooked. Sure, we had to do a bunch of polkas and such but people had fun, we
all had a good meal, were able to stretch out on some tunes (you should have
heard the 10 minute piano solo on "Blue Moon", yet people kept on dancing
away happy as clams). Bringing joy to people, getting fed, playing some
decent tunes and going home with around $300 in the pocket. Why is that
degrading?
G.P.
Gerry
Lippincott <tomlip...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> I've actually heard of a lot of cases where a really excellent
> doctor heard of a case where the patient needed treatment but had no
> insurance and couldn't pay, and the doctor agreed to treat the
> patient for free. I don't think that would happen to someone with
> insurance, even if it's really lame insurance.
Treating (indigent/uninsured) patients has become such a monumental
fiscal drain we've now had 3 or 4 emergency room closures in the LA
area. As a result the remaining ER's are overburdened even more than
they were before, which was not small. Soon we will have no ER's at
all in Los Angeles, California. Amazing but true. Sorry about the
gunshot wound, but we can't help you.
Look into the hundreds, if not thousands, of laws that were written
during Reagan's presidency to make clear the managed health care
approach possible. I'm sure they only had the patient's needs in mind
but gosh and golly alot of those non-profit operations must have had
some utility after all.
Gerry
<gtrvox...@canoemail.com> wrote:
> > Not for me. I find playing wedding gigs and catered affairs totally
> > degrading.
> >
> seriously?
>
> I just played a wedding gig this past Friday. We had a superb young
> keyboardist and an equally great young sax player in the band. Man, we
> cooked. Sure, we had to do a bunch of polkas and such but people had fun, we
> all had a good meal, were able to stretch out on some tunes (you should have
> heard the 10 minute piano solo on "Blue Moon", yet people kept on dancing
> away happy as clams). Bringing joy to people, getting fed, playing some
> decent tunes and going home with around $300 in the pocket. Why is that
> degrading?
I don't know what Dick's response is, but I'll wager a guess--not all
wedding gigs work out this delightfully?
CB
> Important fyi to one & all:
> If anyone would take anything I say here seriously, heed this:
> I was fatally strickin ill in 1990 and had poor health insurance.
> By 1994, I had spent in excess of $350,000 for doctors bills,
> meds, hospital ER trips & inpatient visits plus many tests.
> I never thought my health would ever drop to such a low'ebb
> but it did! So "everyone" [a] don't take your health lightly nor
> [b] never carry poor health insurance nor a poor xscript plan
> as it can bankrupt you.
or [c] move to the civilised world, in most of which we have universal
health care ;)
Gerry
<noisyj...@hotmail.com> wrote:
If big corporations can't make a 30% profit margin on it, it isn't
"civilized", it's *communist". Hmm. Maybe these days it's
"terrorist".
thom_j
>
> this is getting hopelessly off topic, but what would you consider to be
> good
> health insurance? What sort of insurance did you have? Do you now feel
> you
> would have been better off with no insurance at all, or would that have
> just
> made things even worse for you?
>
than none! Why? Because everytime you are rushed to an ER (as I have
been several times) if you don't have health insurance, you are sent onto
one of those "meat market clinics" or at'least this is the way it is here.
So even a good HMO is better than nothing at all, again imho..
thom_j.
thom_j
> or [c] move to the civilised world, in most of which we have universal
> health care ;)
sadly I have heard to many horror stories about "no choice" in who
what where, and I rather not go to just Joe Billy Bob RNMD.. But
then again that's why everyone is different.. thom_j.
thom_j
> "civilized", it's *communist". Hmm. Maybe these days it's
> "terrorist".
this type healthcare? thom_j.
George Prager
> I don't know what Dick's response is, but I'll wager a guess--not all
> wedding gigs work out this delightfully?
You're right, they don't. Sometimes they're tedious, boring, often very
tiring. Still, I don't think I'd use the adjective "degrading". Many (by no
means all) of the recent wedding gigs I've done people knew they were hiring
a swing/jazz band so things went smoothly.
G.P.
CB
> "CB" wrote:
> Do you mean social healthcare? I don't know anything about it, but
> sadly I have heard to many horror stories about "no choice" in who
> what where, and I rather not go to just Joe Billy Bob RNMD.. But
> then again that's why everyone is different.. thom_j.
No, not social, socialist, or communist, but *universal* health care,
ie. no-one needs insurance because everyone is covered. Here in Australia
people whinge about the health care system just as everyone everywhere
seems to. But factually it ranks amongst the top few countries in the
world in terms of actual health outcomes, but spends about half (as % of
GDP) what the US does. The US is unfortunately quite low on most of the
outcomes figures despite spending more than nearly any other country.
Health care is one area where capitalist competition really has no place,
imo.
Dick Onstenk
particularly interested in entertaining people, not even for money. The
commercial gigs I have done in the past I hated. They take away my lust for
playing.
Besides, my day job I find more interesting than playing polkas at weddings.
Heck, I don't like weddings even.
So basically, I am not a musician, nor do I have a desire to be one. Just
like playing guitar.
#####
"George Prager" <gtrvox...@canoemail.com> schreef in bericht
news:b%3%c.6638$Nd6.3...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Gerry
<thom_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> sadly I have heard to many horror stories about "no choice" in who
> what where
More and more frequently the Unitedstatesian systems work the same way.
The "no choice" thing was how insurance sold us on the horrors of
managed health care, which many of us have anyway.
Gerry
<noisyj...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Sep 2004 21:55:47 -0400, thom_j wrote:
>
> > "CB" wrote:
>
> > Do you mean social healthcare? I don't know anything about it, but
> > sadly I have heard to many horror stories about "no choice" in who
> > what where, and I rather not go to just Joe Billy Bob RNMD.. But
> > then again that's why everyone is different.. thom_j.
>
> No, not social, socialist, or communist, but *universal* health care,
> ie. no-one needs insurance because everyone is covered.
COMMUNIST! Don't you realize that when the country begins handling the
health-care system hundreds of insurance and related industries lose
millions of dollars they use to gouge individuals and company
healthcare plans for? You have to think about the "little
mulitmillionaire businessman"! Why worry about a bunch of poor sick
people when those beleaguered industry-heads might have to put off the
purchase of a second boat? :-)
> Here in Australia people whinge about the health care system just as
> everyone everywhere seems to. But factually it ranks amongst the top
> few countries in the world in terms of actual health outcomes, but
> spends about half (as % of GDP) what the US does. The US is
> unfortunately quite low on most of the outcomes figures despite
> spending more than nearly any other country. Health care is one area
> where capitalist competition really has no place, imo.
What's left then, other than to give our souls to Stalin? :-)
Gerry
<d.on...@chello.nl> wrote:
> So basically, I am not a musician, nor do I have a desire to be one. Just
> like playing guitar.
It's a curious conclusion...
Pt
To make it short this country (US) is run by the insurance companies.
Your life is in their hands...
thom_j
news:pan.2004.09.07....@hotmail.com...
beyond me.... For me, I need the best coverage I can acquire that
I can afford, no more, no less, & luckily my POS health insurance
fits "my" needs perfectly.. cheers thom_j.
thom_j
> In article <zN6dnb_F6cG...@comcast.com>, thom_j
> <thom_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> sadly I have heard to many horror stories about "no choice" in who
>> what where
>
> More and more frequently the Unitedstatesian systems work the same way.
> The "no choice" thing was how insurance sold us on the horrors of
> managed health care, which many of us have anyway.
To clarify Gerry my situation is a tad unique, & I have POS insurance
that let's me chose anyone I want, plus the price is perfect for my low
fixed income... So for now, I am glad with what I have because sadly
I know too many that have "no healthcare" and the end result imho is
horrifying... cheers thom_j.
thom_j
> The subject of health care came up....
>
> To make it short this country (US) is run by the insurance companies.
> Your life is in their hands...
plus crooks, banks & politicians but of course this redundantly stated
8^)'..
t.j.
Gerry
<thom_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Thank you for the information & input CB but again all this is a bit
> beyond me.... For me, I need the best coverage I can acquire that
> I can afford, no more, no less, & luckily my POS health insurance
> fits "my" needs perfectly..
Honestly, bro: I hope you'll be saying the same thing next year.
Millions lost their insurance last year.
thom_j
>> Thank you for the information & input CB but again all this is a bit
>> beyond me.... For me, I need the best coverage I can acquire that
>> I can afford, no more, no less, & luckily my POS health insurance
>> fits "my" needs perfectly..
> Honestly, bro: I hope you'll be saying the same thing next year.
> Millions lost their insurance last year.
First Gerry, your not my "bro" and you have no idea how I acquired
my insurance so you know "not of what you speak." Sadly all usenet
discussions become "OT" & you dont have a clue about me, nor my
circumstances and probably never will..
thom_j.
Gerry
<thom_...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Honestly, bro: I hope you'll be saying the same thing next year.
> > Millions lost their insurance last year.
> First Gerry, your not my "bro"
Sorry for the familiarity, buster.
> and you have no idea how I acquired my insurance so you know "not of
> what you speak."
I didn't address how acquired it, didn't address the subject, and don't
give a shit. Are you saying I shouldn't hope you that you'll have
insurance next year? Okay, think negative.
Or are you saying millions didn't lose their this year? It seems you
know not of what I speak--they did. If you think you're not at risk to
lose yours, think again. They've been cutting funding for the
handicapped in California the past 10 years bit by bit. And for
veteran's for years. Nobody's exempt. There is no longer any protected
status except being wealthy.
> Sadly all usenet discussions become "OT" & you dont have a clue about
> me, nor my circumstances and probably never will.
I didn't claim to have the slightest clue about you. But I've got more
now than I need. And need no more.
Such a generally affable guy, I can't imagine how you got your panties
in such a bunch.
Kevin Van Sant
<tomlip...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
<wEP_c.103306$_h.8...@bignews3.bellsouth.net> :
>>
> gosh, you're making me depressed. That's about how much I make and I feel
>like I'm rich compared to before I started teaching college. My accountant
>was even ragging on me for making too much money last year. I guess it's
>all relative. I live alone, don't have any debts, pay next to nothing in
>rent, and I don't exactly live a lavish lifestyle, so I feel like I haven't
>had to worry much about money the last few years. I'm sure things would be
>different if I was paying a morgage on a 4 bedroom house, maybe had other
>unexpected debts or bills, and was supporting a family, but come on, guys;
>there are LOTS of people making minimum wage in this country who have a
>family to support. They're making it work somehow (hopefully.) For all of
>my 20s and early 30s, my income hovered in the $20k range, and my big goal
>was always to break the $30k ceiling. I thought I'd finally graduated to
>"grownup." Are you telling me I'm still a starving musician?
I'm right there with you Tom. I don't have kids but I do own a
really nice house on a lake, we even have 50% equity already. My car
is paid for and my expenses are low. I could easily make my present
situation work at 20k, so having cracked 30 seems like a lot more than
I *need*.
_________________________________________
Kevin Van Sant
jazz guitar
http://www.kevinvansant.com
to buy my CDs, hear sound clips, see videos, and get more info.
Alternate site for recent soundclips
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/kevinvansant_music.htm
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <3W2%c.65271$C7.6...@amsnews05.chello.com> :
>> Despite being a musician, I am an early riser. The other day I had to take
>> my car into the shop around 8AM and took the subway back home. When I saw
>> the crowds of people heading to work in some downtown office, a look of
>> resigned desperation on their faces, I thought to myself: man, any wedding
>> gig is better than *this*!!
>
>Not for me. I find playing wedding gigs and catered affairs totally
>degrading.
you haven't played the right kind of wedding gig I guess. I play
weddings somewhat regularly. One coming up in a couple of weeks is
typical, after listening to the various clips on my website they
asked for the organ trio plus sax. We'll be playing at a gorgeous
19th century manor, don't have to wear a tux, play whatever we want
(jazz), help ourselves to the buffet and bar. No PA or other crap to
lug in, just guitar and amp as like any other gig. Get paid
handsomely. There is nothing I'd rather do on a Saturday afternoon
actually. Great musicians, great music, great food, lovely setting,
well dressed young women all about, AND get paid too? I almost feel
guilty sometimes.
Kevin Van Sant
<j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
<IoGdnVXKFuj...@adelphia.com> :
>Of course if you're a jazz musician, you're probably not making $100/night
>unless you're doing other kinds of music ...
true, sometimes it's $125 or $150.
D.Onstenk
#####
"Kevin Van Sant" <kvan...@pobox.com> schreef in bericht
news:93s0k09lmq7lt7qad...@4ax.com...
George Prager
> well dressed young women all about, AND get paid too? I almost feel
> guilty sometimes.
>
>
guilty but at any rate blessed that I can do something like this, play music
(surrounded by nubile nymphets!), get paid, go home, put my feet up, watch a
hockey game and leave the worries "on my doorstep.." ;-)
I was really taken aback by Dick's comment about playing weddings being
"degrading". If nothing else - how can providing a professional service and
making people happy be degrading? Oh well, different strokes etc...
G.P.
D.Onstenk
weddings and make people happy than that's what it is.
Personally I don't like the idea of entertaining people for a living (and
yes playing pulp music fo I find degrading and that's what it takes over
here to play weddings) but hey, that's just me. That's why I don't do it.
I was taken aback by your comment all day jobs being a nuisance and working
people walking the streets depressed etc. and you being so happy. That was a
nonsensical generalization. I had a good education and would be a fool not
to use it. Have a great teaching job at a university too.
To each his own.
#####
"George Prager" <gtrvox...@canoemail.com> schreef in bericht
news:pL_%c.39969$Nd6.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Lumpy
> ...Personally I don't like the idea of
> entertaining people for a living...
Seems like an odd concept for a musician.
Lumpy
--
In Your Ears for 40 Years
http://www.lumpymusic.com
D.Onstenk
#####
"Lumpy" <lu...@digitalcartography.com> schreef in bericht
news:2qbfh1F...@uni-berlin.de...
Mark Kleinhaut
I'm not even a guitarist, I'm just a string bender:)
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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Charlie Robinson
>> > ...Personally I don't like the idea of
>> > entertaining people for a living...
--------------------------------------------->
Seems like an odd concept for a musician.
>>
>> Lumpy
>> --
---------------------------------------------------
>Like I said earlier, I am not a musician. I play guitar.
>
>#####
---------------------------------------------------------
Some of the greatest moments that come while playing jazz are when the people
get behind what you are playing. They can provide the missing ingredient which
pushes you beyond licks,scales or any other type of prepared material into the
realm of pure improvisation in which both you and they are participating. At
times you become almost as one.
Charlie Robinson Jazz Guitarist, Composer
You can hear and see me online (video) at:
http://66.194.153.49/~ramon/RamonPooser.swf
Soundclips:
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/robinsonchazz
Mondoslug1
>>D.Onstenk wrote:
> ...Personally I don't like the idea of
>entertaining people for a living...
>Seems like an odd concept for a musician.
> Lumpy
Well at least he didn't say "I'm only in it for the money."
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <2qbas5F...@uni-berlin.de> :
>Wedding gigs overe here invariably mean pulp music and certainly NOT jazz.
>
>#####
hey, that kind certainly exists a-plenty over here too. But I choose
not to play them. I wouldn't find it degrading if that was the music
I loved, but it isn't and I would feel like a poser if I was to play
music that isn't "me", and THAT is something I don't ever want to
include in my musical life. As I've said before, I have sacrificed
plenty of potential income by making that decision from the very
beginning but I think in the long run I'm much much better off for it.
If you ever get the chance to do a pure jazz gig at a wedding you
should take it though. They are great gigs.
thom_j
> Such a generally affable guy, I can't imagine how you got your panties
> in such a bunch.
thom_j
news:41408...@127.0.0.1...
>
> "D.Onstenk" <d.on...@chello.nl> wrote:
>>Like I said earlier, I am not a musician. I play guitar.
>>
>
> I'm not even a guitarist, I'm just a string bender:)
Really? I'm barely a plectrum plucker.. curious tee'..
George Prager
>
> To each his own.
>
> #####
>
musician" and I love entertaining. My jazz chops are nothing like yours (saw
your vids!) but I also sing, write, arrange horn charts, sometimes compose
for theatre etc... So our musical lives differ, no question.
I taught at university for one year (in Toronto) and spent about a decade
teaching college and high school in Canada, Britain and Iceland. Disliked it
but kept at it until I plunged into music full time.
I would absolutely _never_ claim that all day jobs are bad. My wife has a
great day job, as do many friends. My comment refered to the admittedly
downcast, sleepy and somewhat depressed commuter faces I saw that morning on
the subway. I'm sure that many of them banged back a large Starbucks coffee
later that morning and perked up considerably!! Of course it was a total
generalization but I meant for it to be funny
Finally, I do not at all mean to imply that being a musician makes me always
"happy" Not at all! Often I'm grumpy, complaining about club owners, fellow
musicians, low pay - you name it. It's just that I have never found playing
music (not even polkas) 'degrading'. That's why I reacted strongly to the
word. But rest assured - I respect your mastery of the instrument and you
have clarified your point of view very well!
G.P.
Tom Lippincott
Kevin Van Sant <kvan...@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:nmb1k0pjgtg1e7h7o...@4ax.com...
> I don't *really* feel guilty, but I do feel fortunate. It's one more
> thing to not take for granted and use as added incentive to keep
> working hard. Things could be a lot worse.
agreed. I do feel a big sense of obligation when I'm being paid to play
music to perform at a minimum professional standard, since there are so many
people out there who are toiling at something they don't feel passionately
about. I do practice just for the sheer joy of playing, but the above is a
big motivator for me as well.
--
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
8 string guitar audio samples at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/tomlippincottmusic.htm
Tom Lippincott
Lumpy <lu...@digitalcartography.com> wrote in message
news:2qca8sF...@uni-berlin.de...
> Tom Lippincott wrote:
> > ...recently, while on a break at one of my steady gigs, I was
> > talking to a fellow guitarist who'd come in about that same
> > subject, saying I felt guilty watching bartenders and
> > waiters bust their asses while we sit around drinking a
> > beer for 15 or 20 minutes every hour...
>
> Do you drink on the job?
> General question, not necessarily directed to Tom.
>
> Lumpy
heh! why, I jusht never drinksh on the zhob....
actually, I have gone back and forth over the years. I've never been a real
heavy drinker in general, other than for a few months after my wife left me
(years ago), so even when I do drink on a gig it's rarely to excess. Right
now at one of my steady gigs, they have Warsteiner on tap (amazing stuff)
which we get for free, so I usually have a couple over the course of the
night, and ditto on my Wed. night gig. Those are both club/restaurant gigs
where it's very understood that it's cool for the musicians to drink. At
private events, which is where most of my gigging money comes from, I almost
never drink alchohol unless either it's offered, or if it's directly stated
that it's okay. Even then I keep it discreet and to a minimum. I would
urge any musicians to be very careful about alchohol consumption on a gig,
and to always make sure to only consume if it's clearly okay with the
management or client, and that it never gets to the point that it
compromises one's professionalism.
I used to feel like drinking even a little compromised my playing
ability/dexterity, and I'd always wait until after the gig, but lately I've
become a little more relaxed about that; sometimes the relaxation and
removal of inhibitions that a beer or two or glass of wine bring about
outweigh the slight deterioration in dexterity. I know that's a slippery
slope, though, and I try not to ever get to where I depend on it. I think
in the long run it's much more effective to be able to bring about that
state naturally.
Paul Sanwald
beer/drinks/food are usually part of the deal. usually I have no more
than 1 beer per set, and I make sure to tip very well.
once I ran an 18 mile race and had two gigs DIRECTLY afterwards, and I
ended up doing 3 shots of bacardi on the first gig because the bass
player made me. on sunday morning, no less. good times.
--paul
Kevin Van Sant
message <ngp1k09fov79giag7...@4ax.com> :
>One of the points I was trying to make with this post is....
>Often you get paid cash for playing gigs if you get paid at all.
>Or you may not pay fully in to social security.
>Will you be able to collect social security, have medicare and any
>other benifits that come with becomming retirement age?
>That is if those things are still available when you are retirement
>age.
Being the honest taxpayers that I'm sure we all are, professional
musicians are paying into SS just like everyone else (the 15% self
employment tax) The only difference is it isn't automatically
deducted from a paycheck. You can request a SS statement from the
IRS which shows you how much you've paid and projects how much you
will be drawing in retirement based on your (reported) income history.
Kevin Van Sant
message <c7c1k0tb7ald7f2k4...@4ax.com> :
>Just wondering....
>How do you get to choose all the music that you will play?
It's as simple as taking only the gigs where those are the
circumstances. For me that means jazz gigs. If someone hires me they
know what they are going to get and what they won't. Presumably
that's what they want.
Kevin Van Sant
<j...@jackzucker.com> wrote in message
<V_idnRXyH6x...@adelphia.com> :
>But Kev,
>
>Come on...You have to know you're the exception. I've had BIG NAME
>musicians - Folks who have played with Miles, Basie, Coltrane, Herbie,
>Wynton, McCoy and more tell me they are scrambling to find $50 gigs. Many
>are waiting tables. Imagine, you subbed for Coltrane with "THE QUARTET" and
>at the point where you should be taking it easy, you're sweeping floors and
>bussing tables. One big name guitarist who we all know and love in this
>forum is separated from his wife but she mercifully didn't divorce him
>because he wouldn't have health insurance, otherwise - Nor could he afford
>it. This guy has about a dozen CDs out and has played with a who's who of
>jazz!
There's no doubt that a lot of guys for various reasons find it really
really hard. But I also know plenty of guys who make a decent living
playing jazz. Believe me, I'm not saying it's easy, I'm just saying
that IF you can make it happen then you feel very fortunate to be able
to devote ALL your energies into something you love and would be doing
anyway even if you didn't get paid to do it.
>I don't think most of these cats feel "lucky".
I wouldn't feel lucky if it wasn't working for me either. But if it
is, seemingly against all odd, then yes, you do feel fortunate. I
don't want to say lucky, because obviously a lot of hard work goes
into making it happen.
>Most jazz musicians I know
>suffer from depression in one degree or another.
That seems really bizarre to me. I know jazz musicians all over the
country , and world for that matter, I can't think of any who I would
say are "depressed" any more than the normal mood swings everyone goes
through. Actually, I can think of one, but he is clinically
manic-depressive and would be if he were a musician or not. Most?
>In terms of hours studying, a jazz musician has typically put in enough time
>to be a neuro-surgeon or nuclear physicist but is paid less than a cabbie.
I get really annoyed when people think that the only work we do is
actually on the gig, ignoring those long hours and years we spent
getting qualified to play that gig. But because I get annoyed about
that I'm also careful not to start comparing my hours to those in
other professions. I have a friend who's in the middle of dental
school and it basically has ruled her life for two years. And though
she'll be getting good bucks when it's all over and she lands a gig,
she has to spend a lot, go into debt, and all that while earning
nothing for those four years. If you're working hard, you're working
hard no matter the profession. Obviously other's have far superior
monetary rewards but hopefully no one has ever gotten into jazz for
the money. But for those fortunate few, the rewards of doing
something you love ALL THE TIME and making a living from it outweigh
the big salary and plush cars that others career choices might have
allowed.
Jack Zucker
> Most?
Most of the ones I know. It's a tough profession like being a cop (though in
a totally different way).
Paul Sanwald
played with a great sax player last weekend who was really dark about
the buisness. I think in any field being self employed you are going to
get stressed out about money issues from time to time, I know I have in
the past when I've been self employed.
I think a lot of jazz musicians suffer from what poker players call
entitlement disease, which is basically thinking that you are entitled
to something because of stuff in the past. it's not a very constructive
way of thinking, and most people with this problem would do well to get
rid of it.
basically, although I can understand some negativity from fellow
musicians it mostly just strikes me as sour grapes and the world owes
me a living type of deal. as matter of fact, this article:
http://www.tommyangelo.com/articles/so_close_but_yet_so_what.htm
sums up my feelings perfectly. tommy's a great writer.
--paul
D.Onstenk
"have". You need a certain personality and eagerness for that. You need to
be willing to get on that stage and perform. You need the drive to entertain
people. I lack all that. I feel unnatural and kind of embarrassed in that
role (no kidding). Others thrive and flourish in that role.
I do the occasional jazz gig but even then I'm happy I can go home again and
not having to do it again the next day. Go figure.
I don't drink, don't smoke and often go to bed early.
Not much of a musician, huh.
That kind of life would be way too fast for me :)
Take care,
#####
"George Prager" <gtrvox...@canoemail.com> schreef in bericht
news:I310d.40198$Nd6.1...@news20.bellglobal.com...
Tom Lippincott
> I'm right there with you Tom. I don't have kids but I do own a
> really nice house on a lake, we even have 50% equity already. My car
> is paid for and my expenses are low. I could easily make my present
> situation work at 20k, so having cracked 30 seems like a lot more than
> I *need*.
>
> _________________________________________
> Kevin Van Sant
(heavy sigh of relief). The house is the next logical step for me, but I'm
nervous about the responsibility of a mortgage, property tax, insurance,
upkeep, ect. when I live so cheaply right now renting.
I'm always hearing how rare it is for middle class Americans to save any
money, so in that respect I must be doing pretty well. Growing up I always
thought my parents were skinflints for not getting cable TV, video games,
ect. like all my friends' parents did for them, but now I'm really thankful
for the example they set for me. When I was married my wife and I ended up
with a good amount of credit card debt, but after we split up we both got
our acts together and payed everything off, and since then I've lived pretty
lean and mean. I'm sure I'd sing a different song if I had a devastating
illness or something but for now life seems pretty good, at least in the $
department. Other than not having to worry at all about money (which would
be nice), I can't even imagine what I'd do with much more than I have,
besides donating it to charity or something.
Gerry
<lu...@digitalcartography.com> wrote:
> > ...Personally I don't like the idea of entertaining people for a
> > living...
>
> Seems like an odd concept for a musician.
We've gone round this topic so very many times. Pleasing others, or
making money from others aren't the only two reasons someone enjoys
making music. I find it odd to have to point out the other
possibilities.
--
Invest wisely: Over the past 75 years, stocks have averaged annual gains of 2.3
percent under GOP administrations, compared with 9.5 under Democratic ones.
-- Jerry Heaster
Gerry
Robinson <robins...@aol.com> wrote:
> Some of the greatest moments that come while playing jazz are when
> the people get behind what you are playing. They can provide the
> missing ingredient which pushes you beyond licks,scales or any other
> type of prepared material into the realm of pure improvisation in
> which both you and they are participating. At times you become almost
> as one.
It's truly an amazing thing. It's the living embodiment of the 1+1=3
concept. It's particularly fantastic when the sync-through-the-ether
is happening with the other players as well. Or instead.
Gerry
Lippincott <tomlip...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> recently, while on a break at one of my steady gigs, I was talking to a
> fellow guitarist who'd come in about that same subject, saying I felt guilty
> watching bartenders and waiters bust their asses while we sit around
> drinking a beer for 15 or 20 minutes every hour. He pointed to the
> bartender and said "do you think that guy practiced for years and years to
> become a bartender?" The truth is, we work FAR harder for our living than
> people in most professions do, all things considered.
I think I get you: When you pro-rate the hours worked to GET to the
bandstand and then add the hours on the bandstand--we have to have
worked at a 8-1 ratio relative to compensation. 12-1 if you're a
player that studied/practiced a lot.
Yes. I'm making up numbers. But even now, for players that are good,
you put far more time into learning a song than it takes to do on the
stand.
Mondoslug1
> recently, while on a break at one of my steady gigs, I was talking to a
>> fellow guitarist who'd come in about that same subject, saying I felt
>guilty
>> watching bartenders and waiters bust their asses while we sit around
>> drinking a beer for 15 or 20 minutes every hour. He pointed to the
>> bartender and said "do you think that guy practiced for years and years to
>> become a bartender?" The truth is, we work FAR harder for our living than
>> people in most professions do, all things considered.
>
>I think I get you: When you pro-rate the hours worked to GET to the
>bandstand and then add the hours on the bandstand-
Hey if you go on the road & divide by 24.............woohoo, suddenly that day
rate ain't all that great.
-we have to have
>worked at a 8-1 ratio relative to compensation. 12-1 if you're a
>player that studied/practiced a lot.
>
>Yes. I'm making up numbers. But even now, for players that are good,
>you put far more time into learning a song than it takes to do on the
>stand.
>
>--
>Invest wisely: Over the past 75 years, stocks have averaged annual gains of
>2.3
>percent under GOP administrations, compared with 9.5 under Democratic ones.
> -- Jerry Heaster
>
>
>
>
>
>
Gerry
<lu...@digitalcartography.com> wrote:
> Tom Lippincott wrote:
> > ...recently, while on a break at one of my steady gigs, I was
> > talking to a fellow guitarist who'd come in about that same
> > subject, saying I felt guilty watching bartenders and
> > waiters bust their asses while we sit around drinking a
> > beer for 15 or 20 minutes every hour...
>
> Do you drink on the job?
> General question, not necessarily directed to Tom.
Yes. At least one drink. I would in any occasion I was in a bar
anyway.
Max Leggett
<lu...@digitalcartography.com> wrote:
>Tom Lippincott wrote:
>> ...recently, while on a break at one of my steady gigs, I was
>> talking to a fellow guitarist who'd come in about that same
>> subject, saying I felt guilty watching bartenders and
>> waiters bust their asses while we sit around drinking a
>> beer for 15 or 20 minutes every hour...
>
>Do you drink on the job?
>General question, not necessarily directed to Tom.
I used to, and everyone I worked with did, but Howling Wolf didn't,
and his band weren't allowed to either. One always thinks of blues
musicians in gritty dives living the life, but Wolf was a pro through
and through. Drinking was for after. On the gig you're here to
entertain. Someone shoulda told me that back then and saved me a lot
of money. :-)
Kevin Van Sant
wrote in message <cht847$4...@odah37.prod.google.com> :
>I definitely know a lot of cats who are pretty dark about things. I
>played with a great sax player last weekend who was really dark about
>the buisness. I think in any field being self employed you are going to
>get stressed out about money issues from time to time, I know I have in
>the past when I've been self employed.
feeling dark about things is a different matter. You are right about
the self-employment thing too. I do know guys who seem bitter or
dark about the business side of things, but with those people it seems
to me like that's a personality trait that would surface with or
without jazz in their life. I still can't say I know any jazz
musicians who have actual depression related to being jazz musician.
>I think a lot of jazz musicians suffer from what poker players call
>entitlement disease, which is basically thinking that you are entitled
>to something because of stuff in the past. it's not a very constructive
>way of thinking, and most people with this problem would do well to get
>rid of it.
>basically, although I can understand some negativity from fellow
>musicians it mostly just strikes me as sour grapes and the world owes
>me a living type of deal.
I think for some people that's part of it. But then again, there are
also plenty of legitimate things to gripe about.