Joe Pass finger-picking or peltrum?

[Third_Man]

I hate to ask the same question twice, but here it goes.
The last time I've posted this question, I generally received the answer
"it depends on the recording."

OK, so I went back to his recordings and also read the tabs of "virtuoso,"
but I really can't tell for sure which style he played each song. (They
all kind of sound like finger-picking but I don't know.)

Could somebody assure me of the definite style of the following songs?

Sweet Lorraine
Have You Met Miss Jones?
'Round Midnight
(All of them from "Virtuoso.")

Thank you.

[playt...@webtv.net]

Why? You're not gonna be able to replicate it if you had ten fingers on
each hand and owned a pick factory. Why over-analyze, just sit back and
let your jaw drop like the rest of us!

[Uwe Lange]

I don't know Joe Pass very well, but I have some songs on video.
He plays all with his fingers. I can't imagine that he uses sometimes a
pick.
The style he is playing is very classical.
And when he play with a pick it would sound like Joe Pass.
So it is not important.

Uwe

Third_Man <Third...@hotmail.com> schrieb in im Newsbeitrag:
Third_Man50-22...@bootp-90.miller.brown.edu...

[Thomas F Brown]

In article <1320-39C...@storefull-248.iap.bryant.webtv.net>,

Joe's music is certainly virtuosic, but not overwhelmingly so. I think
that any professional-caliber jazz guitarist could replicate at least
90% of what Joe played on any given record. It's the thinking it up
in real time that was Joe's unique gift.

[jwra...@aol.com]

In article <39cc...@news.ivm.net>,

> The videos you saw were from later. On Virtuoso he difinitely used a
pick, or a pick in combination with fingers for all, or almost all of
the acoustic cuts. He also did at varying later times in fast blues.
As to the virtuosity of the pieces, his flatpicking skill level was
quite high. Only very top studio guys like Tommy Tedesco or Jimmy
Bryant could execute them as cleanly. Forget about making them up on
the spot. Remember that Joe was the Clifford Brown of the guitar (For
Django, Catch Me, Stones Jazz, Joy Spring, etc.) before he became the
Art Tatum of the Guitar.

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

[Adam Gottschalk]

in article 8qinfi$6li$1...@nnrp1.deja.com, jwra...@aol.com at jwra...@aol.com
wrote on 9/23/00 12:58:

> Remember that Joe was the Clifford Brown of the guitar (For
> Django, Catch Me, Stones Jazz, Joy Spring, etc.) before he became the
> Art Tatum of the Guitar.

Interesting statement. I know Clifford, and have heard some Tatum.
Interested for you to elaborate on your point.

More precise and selective as compared to pyrotechnical and Big?

Adam

[PJBMHB]

> he became the
>> Art Tatum of the Guitar.

i would say oscar peterson.
=-) PJ

[Third_Man]

In article <8qinfi$6li$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, jwra...@aol.com wrote:

> The videos you saw were from later. On Virtuoso he difinitely used a
> pick, or a pick in combination with fingers for all, or almost all of
> the acoustic cuts. He also did at varying later times in fast blues.
> As to the virtuosity of the pieces, his flatpicking skill level was
> quite high. Only very top studio guys like Tommy Tedesco or Jimmy
> Bryant could execute them as cleanly. Forget about making them up on

> the spot. Remember that Joe was the Clifford Brown of the guitar (For
> Django, Catch Me, Stones Jazz, Joy Spring, etc.) before he became the

> Art Tatum of the Guitar.
>
>

> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Before you buy.

A plectrum it is then.

Thank you!

[M.L.]

The typical sound of Virtuoso is due to a trick:

He was using a mixture of the Gibson pickups AND an acoustic archtop bridge
pickup he put on his 175.

M.L.

Third_Man <Third...@Ihatespams.hotmail.com> a écrit dans le message :
Third_Man50-24...@bootp-90.miller.brown.edu...

[Lawson Stone]

in article Third_Man50-22...@bootp-90.miller.brown.edu, Third_Man
at Third...@hotmail.com wrote on 9/23/00 2:38 AM:

> I hate to ask the same question twice, but here it goes.
> The last time I've posted this question, I generally received the answer
> "it depends on the recording."
>
> OK, so I went back to his recordings and also read the tabs of "virtuoso,"
> but I really can't tell for sure which style he played each song. (They
> all kind of sound like finger-picking but I don't know.)
>
> Could somebody assure me of the definite style of the following songs?
>
> Sweet Lorraine
> Have You Met Miss Jones?
> 'Round Midnight
> (All of them from "Virtuoso.")
>
> Thank you.

I recommend you use your ear. Fact is, we just don't know. I think a lot of
"Miss Jones" is with a pick. You hear a lot of strumming in "Virtuoso" and a
lot of the walking bass+chord stuff actually reminds me of how good
bluegrass players can run a fairly complext melody on the lower strings and
keep up a nice rhythmic chord-pattern on the uppers (lower an upper in TONE
that is). This really is done best with a plectrum. You can often also hear
that the chords are being strummed and not plucked or swept with thumb or
fingernails.

Joe also switched back and forth in songs. He often kept the pick in his
mouth, grabbing it for a few choruses than going back to fingerstyle.
*****************************************************
"Go sleep it off Ike; you talk too much for a fighting man"--Wyatt Earp
Lawson Stone-Professor of Old Testament, Asbury Theological Seminary
Jazz Guitar, Cowboy Action Shooting, Leathercraft, Horses, Old West

http://lawsonstone.home.mindspring.com/index.html

[JALSRV]

I remember hearing that Norman Granz did indeed mic and use the plugged in
sound of Joe Pass' 175, but something happened to the plugged in signal, and
what we are hearing is only the acoustic 175.
Jonathan

[RobinsonCHAZZ]

In publications of that period(down beat etc.) the Virtuoso session was just
described as having been done on miked electric guitar, in fact some stated
that this had been done intentionally in order to capture the acoustic quality
of the guitar. When I saw him down here
(Fl.) he was just using his fingers but I find it hard to believe that he is
not using a pick on the blues tunes which are heard on Montreux 77. Charlie

[Kevin Smith]

On 25 Sep 2000 17:11:44 GMT, robins...@aol.com (RobinsonCHAZZ)
wrote:

I've also heard the story that for that session they recorded him
acoustically and electrically but somehow lost or fouled the electric
track.

And while I'm here I also agree that Joe used pick and fingers for
that recording and later evolved into a mostly fingers player.

Kevin Smith

[Soapy10999]

>
>Why? You're not gonna be able to replicate it if you had ten fingers on
>each hand and owned a pick factory. Why over-analyze, just sit back and
>let your jaw drop like the rest of us!
>

True, very true.

[Michael Thurber]

You hit the nail on the head with that one,

[Michael Thurber]

Not quite accurate, Joe was the Charley Parker of guitar before he was the
Art Tatum of guitar.

[wyrd...@gmail.com]

On Friday, September 22, 2000 at 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, Third_Man wrote:
> I hate to ask the same question twice, but here it goes.
> The last time I've posted this question, I generally received the answer
> "it depends on the recording."
>
> OK, so I went back to his recordings and also read the tabs of "virtuoso,"
> but I really can't tell for sure which style he played each song. (They
> all kind of sound like finger-picking but I don't know.)
>
> Could somebody assure me of the definite style of the following songs?
>
> Sweet Lorraine
> Have You Met Miss Jones?
> 'Round Midnight
> (All of them from "Virtuoso.")
>
> Thank you

If anyone has the Joe Pass instructional videos from the the mid eighties, Joe mentions that he hardly ever uses a pick. He says he used to, and that it was one he would cut smaller. He doesn't say why he moved away from the pic but does say, you feel the guitar in a closer way. He also said that even though he doesn't use the pic that much, he still holds onto it when playing only because of familiarity reasoning, and that its all just in his mind, but he said its not something to analyze. Its obvious that his solo guitar work didn't need the pick, but his work with a full band did need the pick, and he did use it.

He was and will always be the Great Virtuoso.