What to Call this Chord??
Bg
long has This Been Going On, is an Ab Diminished with an E in the
melody(Key of Amin), same appears in How Insensitive in D min, chord
is DbDim with A in the melody, and shows up in the tune
Unforgettable.
and others
Sax player friend of mine was having issues with his guitarist
playing
AbDim and having the F in the chord clash with the E melody melody
and
they were arguing about it..
I've always that about AbDim with an E as an E7, or AbDim
Maj7(?),some
book shows that type of chord as E/F
Is there a better way to name this chord?
Dom Minasi
G13b9 with the Ab in the bass for Quiet Nights and C13b9 with Db in
the bass for How Insensitive
Rick Stone
The way Dom names it is the way I learned it from the old Mickey Baker
book too, but I usually think of this chord as a Diminished (major 7).
It's often used in inversions. So in Corcovado it would be an
Fo(maj7)/Ab. If you go to the "Lessons" page on my website and scroll
down, you can download 4 articles I wrote on chord construction for Just
Jazz Guitar. http://rickstone.com/lessons
But really ANY of those names is okay (although calling it "E/F" is
probably going to get someone to play it in the wrong inversion, since
piano and guitar players use that type of notation to indicate what's in
the BASS).
And really there's nothing wrong with calling it Abo7. We ALL know
about using the notes a whole-step above a chord-tone on diminished
chords and you ALWAYS have to account for the melody when choosing your
inversions.
The naming shouldn't be such a big deal once you understand the SOUND.
--
Musically Yours,
Rick Stone
Website: http://www.rickstone.com
Recordings: http://www.cdbaby.com/all/jazzand
Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/jazzand
Myspace: http://www.myspace.com/rickstonemusic
EPK: http://www.sonicbids.com/rickstone
sheetsofsound
extension added for color just like when the chart says G7 and you add
a 13th
rpjazzguitar
At least some Brazilian arrangers call this a Abdim(b13).
Jack, I don't see how you can call the E natural a 13 on a Ab root.
sheetsofsound
it's a 13th according to the tonality of the dim scale
Ab Bb Cbb Db Ebb Fb etc...
sheetsofsound
but fyi, i would never write it as Abdim13 on a chart. I would write
it out as G13/Ab
minornoncomformity
>
> And really there's nothing wrong with calling it Abo7. We ALL know
> about using the notes a whole-step above a chord-tone on diminished
> chords and you ALWAYS have to account for the melody when choosing your
> inversions.
>
I tend to be in the camp of thinking of this as some kind of G13. Is
this a case of what Joey talks about where it sounds good if it's a
major seventh, but bad as a b9? If so, should I be more cautious about
what octave the melody instrument is in? For instance, tenor sax could
be playing in a register such that its E would be below my F. I may
have been lucking out in that the grip I would typically go for avoids
this. Is this something I need to consciously avoid?
Bg
> But really ANY of those names is okay (although calling it "E/F" is
> probably going to get someone to play it in the wrong inversion, since
> piano and guitar players use that type of notation to indicate what's in
> the BASS).
>
> And really there's nothing wrong with calling it Abo7. We ALL know
> about using the notes a whole-step above a chord-tone on diminished
> chords and you ALWAYS have to account for the melody when choosing your
> inversions.
>
sheepishly.
Accounting for the melody is definitely the way to go, but some folks
take literally what's on the page,
and i was thinking of a more-foolproof way to name that Chord, Dim/Maj
7 is pretty well the way I though of it, but Never saw named that way.
The E/F Was intended as an E triad with F in the bass. I saw it that
way in a fake book on "Unforgettable".
Something like the original chord for Stella being an A triad with Bb
in the bass which I considered Bb Dim/Maj7
That Dom's G13b9 is a way a Look at it as well, because I also come
out of the Micky Baker Book.
One of his names that just killed me was his C13b5b9 which was really
a Gb 7#9 to me.
I will check out your site, Rick.
Bg
Rick Stone
> Actuall I only learned that whole step bit a year or 2 ago, said he
> sheepishly.
That's what they taught me about 33 years ago at Berklee and it's still
true today.
> Accounting for the melody is definitely the way to go, but some folks
> take literally what's on the page,
In my mind, thinking of the melody is the ONLY way to go. If you're not
doing that, you have no way of knowing whether what you play is going to
fit or clash. When I'm not playing the melody note on top of my chord,
I'm usually looking for an interval that will sound good with the melody
(a 3rd or 6th away is often a good choice, next would be a 4th or 5th,
a 2nd or 7th is usually the least desirable option, but it can work
depending on the effect you're going for, as can a tri-tone).
> and i was thinking of a more-foolproof way to name that Chord, Dim/Maj
> 7 is pretty well the way I though of it, but Never saw named that way.
> The E/F Was intended as an E triad with F in the bass. I saw it that
> way in a fake book on "Unforgettable".
The diminished/maj7 chord is often just called a diminished chord. Good
players LISTEN and know when to put that Major 7th in (and do it VERY
routinely).
> Something like the original chord for Stella being an A triad with Bb
> in the bass which I considered Bb Dim/Maj7
Stella was originally in G Major and the first chord is said to be Go.
The melody is F#, so there's your Major 7th.
> That Dom's G13b9 is a way a Look at it as well, because I also come
> out of the Micky Baker Book.
> One of his names that just killed me was his C13b5b9 which was really
> a Gb 7#9 to me.
Mickey sometimes had some odd ways of naming things, but if you followed
his method, all of that stuff made sense and worked just fine.
Dom Minasi
Guys.....simplicity...G13b9 Ab in the bass and E on top as the
melody note...is all that is required...silmple
Bg
> Guys.....simplicity...G13b9 Ab in the bass and E on top as the
>
I don't think of it the sameway in every chorus, but treating it as G7
is cool because you can look Corcovado's Amin6 as D9, then going to
G13b9 to C7.
I remember Grant Green doing a very bluesy thing over that Cycle on
that tune with Larry Young and Elvin Jones.
Bg
TD
My advice to the guitarist is to voice his F note in the middle of the
chord and not near or on the soprano. If the sax player ain't happy
with that then give him a good kick in the ass. He can't play chords
anyhow. He spends the better part of his days running scales.
Ironically, he should know better about tensions. The E melody note is
a very common tension device used on top of a diminished chord that
has it's root (bass note, in this case) a major third above (that
tension note). So yes, Abdim7 is really functioning as a type of E7
chord ( *BUT(depending on what follows, because each diminished chord
contains two tritones and where that particular voicing is leading
into "gets the biscuit"; makes good music...thinking in this manner
can yield, of course: G7b9 (etc), Bb7b9, Db7b9).
In the tunes you mentioned:
**Corcovado: Abdim7 is written against E melody (VERY COMMON DEVICE).
E is a major third below Ab (G#) and also one whole step above
( another way to look at added tension notes to diminished chords, a
whole step above each chord tone) D, a principle interval in Abdim7
voicing and the tritone component with Ab bass note. You can think
G7b9 (in accord with Dom's suggestion), but as far as function within
the tune, I prefer E7 (making the chord associated with the melody
note and and also a better tritone entrance (for me, at least, ) into
the subsequent chord change which is G-7. Play your two bars of D7/A
into two bars of E7 ( we are temporarily displacing Abdim7 with each
of the four dom7 corresponding b9 chord choices, G7, C#7, Bb7. For me
E7 makes it much tighter into G-7. I would not use it, though. I would
stick with Tom's original change.
**Unforgettable produces the same tension device: F# on top of
Bbdim7. F# being a major third below Bbdim7 (A#dim7). Dig? F# is also
a whole step above the integral E note from Bbdim7.
**How Long as This been Going On: Same story as Corcovado.
**How Insensitive: C#dim7 reveals A as major third below C#. And the
A note is a whole step above G, an integral component of C#dim7.
Each of these tunes utilizes the same tension device to the 'T'.
And as Rick hipped you, when we get into adding tension notes to dim7
chords, we get into dim/maj7 territory which is further identified by
how many tensions are added to the chosen voicing. This can yield 9ths
and 11ths as ornamental tones.
When tensions are added to dim7 chords, their true diminished sound
in turn becomes "diminished" or for me, less "potent" as a diminished
chord function. It is more of how Schoenberg used to say, "vagrant" in
nature.
Outside of How Long Has this Been Going on ( although G7alt is still
really hanging on to the Abdim7 of the preceding bar, all those tunes
I mentioned (derived from you and forgive me for not being hip to that
'Amor' tune) have the dim7 chord basking itself in a pool of two bars.
The guitarist merely needs to get hipper inversions as not to step on
the horn player's reed.
-TD
Dom Minasi
Hey Tony..The cool thing about treating it as a G13b9 coming down
from D7..Amin7- D9, Abmin7 Db9 , Gmin7- Gb7 FMaj7b5 for the blowing
part
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Yes, I agree, Db7 or G7 alt is cool for the blowin. I see *function*
in the tune as E7. And then I don't give a shit. I just wanna blow,
man. I'm buyin' me a McCurdy for me birthday coming up.
-T
Joey Goldstein
> I'm buyin' me a McCurdy for me birthday coming up.
>
I really liked the sound that Cheryl Bailey was getting with her McCurdy
thin line when she was up here last month.
Bit too pricey for me though.
--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://homepage.mac.com/josephgoldstein/AudioClips/audio.htm>
joegold AT primus DOT ca
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Rain" recording.
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TD
That guitar is perfect for Sheryl, who sounds great on it. I am
ordering the Kenmare (archtop). His prices are far lower than most
others. And unlike some others I have played of late, his axes not
only look good, they play and sound good too. I am not one for
handmade anything, because I don't like getting attached to things.
But after I played one of his Kenmares, I began humping it. Ric had to
pull me off the damn thing. I can get out there, as you probably
already know.
-TD
Bg
I knew I could count on you guys :-)
I'm going to edit it down for the Horn Player and his other Guit
player and foward it .
Thanks muchly
Bg
rpjazzguitar
I hadn't ever seen a chord name be constructed based on anything but
the major scale. So, if I see Abdim13, I should expect an E in the
chord?
That's new to me, which is fine.
But, I've seen this chord on Brazilian charts as Abdim b13.
Joey Goldstein
I don't know where Jack's getting this notion from.
The compound interval G#-E is a min 13th interval, an octave double of a
min 6th.
Adding an E to a G#dim7 chord we get G#dim7(b13).
Dim7(b13) is a fairly common chord symbol.
"Abdim7(13)" has a redundancy in it because the maj 13th above Ab is F
which is enharmonically equivalent to the chord's bb7 chord tone, Gbb.
If you want get anal about naming the chord with an Ab root, then
technically speaking the interval Ab-E is an aug 5th interval, so you'd
have to call the chord Abdim7(add#5) or something silly like that.
Equally anal would be notating the melody note as Fb under the notion
that Ab-Fb is a true min 13th interval.
The only reason that guys write this as Abdim7 rather than G#dim7 is
because the roots are descending towards G, but it's really a G#dim chord.
van
>
> - Show quoted text -
It's always interesting to play that tune on a gig with a keyboard
player who plays left hand bass and see what they come up with. Before
the Real Book told them what chords they had to play,
many of those inbred idiots would start on a D9th with a D in the
bass, and then go to a G13 with G in the bass, completely destroying
the subtle change that Jobim specified, but that's what being a
keyboard player is all about anyway ; - )
One guy used to go to a C#7#9 for the second chord, but he used subs
on every tune he played (even rock tunes!), and if you couldn't follow
him, they just got someone else. One guy got so fed up with the
keyboard player telling him not to play the standard changes, that he
handed him his 335 and said "Here, you play it!"
The only thing that ever sounded good to me on the Jobim changes was
some type of diminished scale ideas.
tom walls
>
> That Dom's G13b9 is a way a Look at it as well, because I also come
> out of the Micky Baker Book.
Me too. I use it fairly regularly as a passing chord.
> One of his names that just killed me was his C13b5b9 which was really
> a Gb 7#9 to me.
>
I use this a lot as a tritone sub.
tom walls
>
> And really there's nothing wrong with calling it Abo7. We ALL know
> about using the notes a whole-step above a chord-tone on diminished
> chords and you ALWAYS have to account for the melody when choosing your
> inversions.
>
A few of us still don't know about this whole-step thing. Somebody
want to pull my coat?
Rick Stone
When you play a diminished 7th chord, any note a whole-step above one of
the chord tones can be used as a color-tone (that basically means the
remaining notes from the diminished scale. For example;
Example:
1 2 3 4 5 6
C#o7 BboM7 EoM7 DboM7 GoM7 GoM7
Eo7
Go7
Bbo7
3--------5--------3--------3--------3--------2--------
2--------2--------4--------2--------2--------2--------
3--------3--------3--------5--------3--------3--------
2--------2--------2--------2--------4--------5--------
------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
So Example 1 is just a straight diminished 7th chord, which could be
named as C#o7, Eo7, Go7, Bbo7.
Examples 2 through 6, with one note raised are actually diminished Major
7th chords (diminished triads with a major 7 added). The raised note
becomes the major 7th.
In Example 5 the two outside notes F# up to G form a minor 9th interval
which sounds pretty nasty. This can be fixed by swapping the two
outside notes as in example 6.
You can also use multiple color tones, but the naming gets dicey. Most
people just call it a diminished and leave the coloration to the
discretion of the performer.
tom walls
> On 5/2/2011 8:41 AM, tom walls wrote:
>
>
> When you play a diminished 7th chord, any note a whole-step above one of
> the chord tones can be used as a color-tone (that basically means the
> remaining notes from the diminished scale.
Thanks, I appreciate it!
Lord Valve
They come up with more money for you, because they're playing two parts.
No need to thank us, we're used to it.
> Before
> the Real Book told them what chords they had to play,
> many of those inbred idiots would start on a D9th with a D in the
> bass, and then go to a G13 with G in the bass, completely destroying
> the subtle change that Jobim specified, but that's what being a
> keyboard player is all about anyway ; - )
My goodness.
The Real Book is hardly the definitive source
for the "right" chords. This music *is*, after
all, Jazz. It's subject to interpretation, yes?
I really don't see many keyboardists dissing
guitar pickers, at least, not on the forums
I read. Mostly, we just feel sorry for the poor
bastards, seein' as how they can only play
six notes at a time. How limited!
> One guy used to go to a C#7#9 for the second chord, but he used subs
> on every tune he played (even rock tunes!), and if you couldn't follow
> him, they just got someone else. One guy got so fed up with the
> keyboard player telling him not to play the standard changes, that he
> handed him his 335 and said "Here, you play it!"
Yeah, better not experiment or anything. Jazz is set in concrete, y'know...
> The only thing that ever sounded good to me on the Jobim changes was
> some type of diminished scale ideas.
Glad your diminished ideas work for ya.
Lord Valve
Organist
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
"Adding an E to a G#dim7 chord we get G#dim7(b13)"
Is probably what Jack meant.
And the 9th is usually included with the b13th. Inverted, it makes
Fdim/maj7 (11), a very cool sound ( I would not call this E#) whose
**gravitational pull favors ( or at least reduces the potency as a
functional dimished chord) the major7th** over the diminished (no pun
intended concerning slash or polying). I would still leave Ab in the
bass where Jobim intended it. He had a reason for his bass line. But I
would check out the additional dim/maj7 sounds to draw from concerning
blowing (from the point of view of B and D dim/maj7's as well).
-TD
Bg
Yeah, Your example 6 is what same fake book called F#/G
in"Unforgettable", works nicely as F#, A and Eb Dominant chords.
Bg
Chickenhead
Stone (i.e., Fo(maj7)/Ab for Corcovado). It's always felt a little awkward
though. I like the Xdim(b13) [a/k/a Xo(b13) a/k/a Xo b13, etc.] concept rp
says he's seen on Brazilian charts. I think I'm going borrow a tip from rp
and the Brazilians; from now on I'll probably use Xdim b13, as it seems less
awkward.
"rpjazzguitar" wrote in message
news:126b0cb9-13e0-4f9a...@s16g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> > At least some Brazilian arrangers call this a Abdim(b13).
>
Dave M
> And really there's nothing wrong with calling it Abo7. We ALL know
> about using the notes a whole-step above a chord-tone on diminished
> chords and you ALWAYS have to account for the melody when choosing
> your inversions.
Not ALL, Rick. What's this whole-tone thing you speak of? Thx.
van
>
> - Show quoted text -
You seem to have put your own interpretation on what I was saying.
I can't stand using Real Book changes, and worked with keyboard
players who were both top players and arrangers who had their own
changes for every tune, and I loved the challenge of hearing their
subs, if they were good.
My approach to harmony was greatly expanded by those experiences, and
playing charts by great arrangers.
I actually loved working with the keyboard player who I mentioned
(until he had a meltdown on a gig and tried to stab a bass player with
a fork- he really didn't like working with bass players!), and meant
to imply that the 335 player who subbed for me couldn't hear his way
out of a paper bag.
I like to kid around about keyboard players (I didn't think that any
of them actually read this board), and they can't help that they were
in-bred ; - )
Dave M
Never mind, I just saw your reply to Tom.
Tim McNamara
<a25a4686-6d2a-497f...@dn9g2000vbb.googlegroups.com>,
van <sg...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> You seem to have put your own on what I was saying. I can't stand
> using Real Book changes,
What if the changes are correct? ;-)
<snip>
> I actually loved working with the keyboard player who I mentioned
> (until he had a meltdown on a gig and tried to stab a bass player
> with a fork- he really didn't like working with bass players!)...
That's some meltdown.
--
"It is not unfrequent to hear men declaim loudly upon liberty, who, if we may
judge by the whole tenor of their actions, mean nothing else by it but their
own liberty ‹ to oppress without control or the restraint of laws all who
are poorer or weaker than themselves." Samuel Adams
TD
>
> - Show quoted text -
Try leaving USA and hiring cats. I mean whoa.
-TD
van
>
> - Show quoted text -
Must've been some real weiners..
At the same time, how many cats can relocate to a new continent and
get by playing jazz.
You got balls of steel TD.
Bg
b13th isn't this a an 8 note scale making the Octave actually a Ninth
or am I totally Muxed Ip ?
Bg
Lord Valve
What other interpretation could there possibly be? ;-)
> I can't stand using Real Book changes,
Well, *that's* a relief. I was beginning to think I was the only one...
> and worked with keyboard
> players who were both top players and arrangers who had their own
> changes for every tune, and I loved the challenge of hearing their
> subs, if they were good.
> My approach to harmony was greatly expanded by those experiences, and
> playing charts by great arrangers.
> I actually loved working with the keyboard player who I mentioned
> (until he had a meltdown on a gig and tried to stab a bass player with
> a fork- he really didn't like working with bass players!),
Well, I really *like* working with a bassist.
The organ-bass thing is, ultimately, limited in scope.
It's fun to do, though, I must admit, but in the end,
no matter how good at it I may become, I'm not
going to gas myself with an unexpected direction
and wind up playing something really cool that
I would not have done were I not tweaked in that
direction by another mind at the controls in the
low-frequency department. And I prefer firearms
to forks. (Insert Fat Joke here.)
> and meant
> to imply that the 335 player who subbed for me couldn't hear his way
> out of a paper bag.
Fess up...you hate him because his guitar isn't thick enough. ;-)
> I like to kid around about keyboard players (I didn't think that any
> of them actually read this board),
There aren't really any key forums on Usenet that are worth a shit.
I've been banned from every moderated forum I've
ever joined, and besides...I already know what the
keyboard players know. I'll be the first to admit
that I've benefitted from reading all the bent ideas
you string-plinkers have on harmony. I'm even
using a few. ;-)
> and they can't help that they were
> in-bred ; - )
Don't make me diss yer Mom, junior. ;-)
Lord Valve
Organist