question for Clif
Greg M. Silverman
What's up with the 2-part bebop inventions? I looked for them all over
your web site w/o luck. Are they ready? Please to help me! I have a
lull now in my life where all I'm doing is learning new pieces, so I'd
love to read through some of your stuff.
Danke Schoen!
gms--
Jurupari
>What's up with the 2-part bebop inventions? I looked for them all over
>your web site w/o luck.
Well, I had about 200 visits tin two days, and only two comments here, both
negative and that was enough for me.
I have plenty of arrangements for solo fingerstyle I wrote, just the heads,
but of songs most people don't play solo, but I was trying to write stuff
that's more like what i'm capable of playing on the fly, and according to what
I heard here, it isn't any good. I don't agree, but maybe that makes me a bad
musician. Anyway it killed any interest I had in putting anything more down.
Sorry.
Clif
Greg M. Silverman
>>Hi Clif,
>>What's up with the 2-part bebop inventions? I looked for them all over
>>your web site w/o luck.
>>
>>
>
>Well, I had about 200 visits tin two days, and only two comments here, both
>negative and that was enough for me.
>
> I have plenty of arrangements for solo fingerstyle I wrote, just the heads,
>but of songs most people don't play solo, but I was trying to write stuff
>that's more like what i'm capable of playing on the fly, and according to what
>I heard here, it isn't any good.
>
Really, who said that? What the hell do they know anyway! (Some people
are just too plain and simple vanilla boring and need to
expand their horizons a bit!) :-)
>I don't agree, but maybe that makes me a bad musician.
>
Or, they haven't a clue!
>Anyway it killed any interest I had in putting anything more down.
>Sorry.
>
Too bad... sounded like a great idea to me.
Sigh...
gms--
Jurupari
well, more than I do, probably, if I'm under oath - they're both educated in
music, and I'm basically self-taught. Frankly, I feel like I barely belong
here anyway most of the time. My valuation of the art of improvisation simply
doesn't coincide with most of what I read here. I just prioritize things
differently, and what's important to me isn't very highly regarded here and
vice versa.
I'm a pretty good guitar arranger and I am capable of writing good playable
harmonically 'perfect' bach-like bop inventions, but that wasn't what it was
all about..
I think any college junior should be able to do that - what I wanted was to
portray that kind of vague but good sound that comes within the controlled
chaos of two good players improvising together.
Intellectually, the dynamic of approaching both improvised parts at once will
certainly reflect the 'chaos' part, and the 'controlled' part comes from
working the species thru the changes. I wanted to capture that, basically, but
like a joke, if you have to explain it don't do it.
Maybe I will write some more harmonically 'correct' (agh!) inventions, but to
me they just sound like pretty exercises. I need money, so it may happen.
Clif
Geordie F.O. Kelly
I have always valued what you contributed to this group over the years. As
far as I'm concerned, you are a fine musician with a lot to offer to us all.
--
Geordie F.O. Kelly
Guitarist/Jazz Improvisation Instructor
Armed Forces School of Music
http://heritageguitar.com/artists/
"Jurupari" <juru...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030718173053...@mb-m20.aol.com...
MBR
> differently, and what's important to me isn't very highly regarded here and
> vice versa.
Clif- Your posts often get me to thinking in ways I hadn't considered.
I hope you keep putting your ideas up here.
Annie
I really like your solo fingerstyle guitar playing! This is my favorite
area so I guess I am outnumbered here too.
I think the Bach bebop stuff would be very interesting-
Annie
Jurupari
>area so I guess I am outnumbered here too.
Well, not if you come from a classical background, but I like to dance on the
edge and that's not done much around here, I don't think - it does mean you'll
screw stuff up - it's unavoidable, but I accept that, and a lot of people
don't. Also I hate trying to make a guitar sound like some kind of bebop
banjo, and there's a lot of that thinking around here - that
pickadapickedyapickada sound drives me batty. Literally nobody but guitar
players play that way. Well, maybe some bass players, but it's somehow less
offensive and more necessary since drums can frequently be tacet.
Anyway, thanks for the input, Annie. I really do appreciate it, no joke. thanks
to Geordie & jazzbo too.
> think the Bach bebop stuff would be very interesting-
A lot of players including me tend to do that for a chorus or last 8 of ATTYA,
for example.
You can do it on about anything that sort of generally gets around in fourths.
I dunno, maybe I'll do that instead on some songs, but I don't think it would
stimulate players to get to thinking in two simultaneous lines, but rather jusp
performance of two (or more) intricately dovetailed parts. that's pretty much
Lennie Niehaus and Gerry Mulligan's area.
Trying to get people to consider two line improv was the purpose of the other
thing. Not too many people mess with it, and frankly there's a tremendous
amount of prejudice against doing it spontaneously. It puzzles me but I've
read it here for years. Not done in N'yawk, mebbe.
Ah well....:o)
Clif
billg...@comcast.net
You have been very helpful and yes inspirationally to me. I really really
appreciate that.
I don't consider the "self taught" thing a curse at all. Quite the
opposite. I was very much self taught until I went to Berklee. After I
graduated I had to learn to play plenty of non-jazz whatever ( rock, top
40,country, disco etc.) I really felt very out of it and definitely not up
to the par of everybody else who was self taught and frankly usually not a
Berklee grad.
The past two / three weeks I've been playing with a 60's band. The lead
singer and the bass player are self taught and play the style with a great
deal of strength. I can't say that. It's a challenge to me to really nail
the style and sound etc which I'd like to do. I'm rising to the challenge.
I am rambling... what I noticed is that, for me, the formal studying
disconnected me somewhat from my passion. That was unfortunate and probably
my own fault. Maybe the timing wasn't right. Whatever. I'd take the passion
of being self-taught
any day. There are plenty of "educated " musicians who can't play their way
out of a paper bag.
Cliff, you belong here big time and thanks for all your help.
Gotta run and learn to sing Loui Loui for tonight!!
Bill Godwin
Tom Lippincott
>Trying to get people to consider two line improv was the purpose of the other
>thing. Not too many people mess with it, and frankly there's a tremendous
>amount of prejudice against doing it spontaneously. It puzzles me but I've
>read it here for years. Not done in N'yawk, mebbe.
>
>Ah well....:o)
>
>Clif
hey I'm a big fan of developing the contrapuntal possibilities of the guitar,
as you know, and I'm a "regular" around here.
As far as I know the only one here who has ever really dissed you, your
playing, or your ideas is the infamous "snotrag."
Tom Lippincott
Guitarist, Composer, Teacher
audio samples, articles, CD's at:
http://www.tomlippincott.com
8 string guitar audio samples at:
http://www.soundclick.com/bands/3/tomlippincottmusic.htm
Max Leggett
wrote:
>As far as I know the only one here who has ever really dissed you, your
>playing, or your ideas is the infamous "snotrag."
That's not very nice, calling poor ol' snotrag infamous. You might
hurt his feelings, and he's such a warm and wonderful human being that
you should be ashamed of yoursefl, you Notsie. :-) But yer reet -
Clif ain't no Notsie, he posts good stuff.
Steve Carroll
juru...@aol.com (Jurupari) wrote:
Clif... OT here for a second. I have what may be a mutual friend that
lives in CO, (as do I). We drank a bit that day, but I think it was your
name that he mentioned and your CD that he played for me on a recent
visit to his house,(great stuff BTW). His name is Dan Veazey and he
lives up off of 285 at about 8200 ft. Are you the right guy, or am I
barking up the wrong 'Clif'?
Steve
Jurupari
>name that he mentioned and your CD that he played for me on a recent
>visit to his house,(great stuff BTW). His name is Dan Veazey and he
>lives up off of 285 at about 8200 ft. Are you the right guy, or am I
>barking up the wrong 'Clif'?
Hi Steve - naw, that's me. Daniel and I go back a loooong way - we were in a
band about twenty five years ago together - steely dan clone band, mainly.
He's a very good friend, more like a brother, really.
We live about an hour away from each other, and we're both lazy old men and
don't visit as much as we should.
In the old days, we'd put Dan's incredible wife into something slinky and she
and Danny would go visit an agency and come back booked solid! Worked every
time. Fortunately she does not use her powers for purposes of evil. I hope
they fed you - Dorothy's a great Greek cook!
Isn't it great what he's done with that house? Best view in the city, imo. He
did all that cabinet work and granite coutertops in the kitchen, too, and I
know you got the studio tour.
We should all hang out sometime - did he tell you about bitching at Greg Allman
for shooting fireworks onto his property? He had me howlin....or his dogs and
'das boot'.
I owe Daniel a phone call, actually - thanks for reminding me!
Clif
Steve Carroll
juru...@aol.com (Jurupari) wrote:
I've known Dan since '91 and played with him in a local band called
Altitudes for a bit. Have you seen his house lately? He's adding on to
it and going broke in the process,(what else is new, right). I never
heard the 'Greg' story but I have tasted the cooking many times and it
IS killer! I don't see him often enough either but it would be fun to
all get together sometime. Do you live up on the hill, too?
Steve
thom_j.
input and I do not have to say another word! Right? ;8^)~
cheers thom_j.
james seaberry
Wow, I bees speechless, Clif. Just so you know, I check your site
almost daily looking for something new, and I have bought, and would
continue to buy, the fruits of your labors. Two line improv? Why, hell
yeah!
Bring 'em on, Clif! What critics? Let 'em criticalate or whatever
it's called.
Jurupari
>input and I do not have to say another word! Right? ;8^)~
>cheers thom_j.
>
right!!! :o)
Jurupari
love to have heard it. He raves about your playing!!
We had some good dan arrangements - we used to sit on the hotel bed up in Vail
and get stuff acoustically since they wouldn't let us rehearse in the club - we
were really good on Aja - loved doing that song - that whole album, really.
Mondo small-o!
Clif
Greg M. Silverman
>>Trying to get people to consider two line improv was the purpose of the other
>>thing. Not too many people mess with it, and frankly there's a tremendous
>>amount of prejudice against doing it spontaneously. It puzzles me but I've
>>read it here for years. Not done in N'yawk, mebbe.
>>
>>Ah well....:o)
>>
>>Clif
>>
>>
>
>hey I'm a big fan of developing the contrapuntal possibilities of the guitar,
>as you know, and I'm a "regular" around here.
>
this is a virtually untapped area for guitarists: contrapuntal improv. I
can't see whay anyone in their right mind would be adverse to this.
Heck, even Mick Goodrick discusses this in some depth. Pianists have
done it, so why the heck can't guitarists. (And, I'm not a regular :-P )
>As far as I know the only one here who has ever really dissed you, your
>playing, or your ideas is the infamous "snotrag."
>
>
glad I don't know this person. :-)
gms--
Jurupari
going to try putting a few things together, but my preference would be to make
them sound like two simultaneously improvised lines rather than an arrangement.
I was even thinking about publishing some exercises as a method for getting
the motor started. Still, I favor spontaneous sounding harmonies to contrived
or prearranged ones.
Clif
Steve Carroll
juru...@aol.com (Jurupari) wrote:
> Wow - he LOVED altitudes!! I think it's his favorite of all bands.
You mean despite the fact that he had to deal with all of us? I'm
shocked :) <--- and I can't make that smiley big enough
> I would
> love to have heard it. He raves about your playing!!
He raved about YOUR playing to me and I can see why, now. I'm basically
a bush league hacker who would like to learn how to play Jazz probably
too late in life. I'm learning the tools right now and maybe in 10 or 20
years I'll figure out how to put 'em together.
I gotta tell ya, after listening to your harmonized version of Danna
Lee, I think I'll can the idea of trying to pick your brain if we ever
meet at Dan's house to party. Unless you hold your liquor like our boy
does, I'd probably bore the living hell outta you with my mundane
questions... but, if so, I stand a chance of sneaking some stuff in on
you :)
> We had some good dan arrangements - we used to sit on the hotel bed up in
> Vail and get stuff acoustically since they wouldn't let us rehearse in the
> club - we were really good on Aja - loved doing that song - that whole album,
> really. Mondo small-o!
Speaking of 'Mondo', you probably know Dan left us for them. Actually,
it was a great move on his part and I don't blame him at all,(we didn't
get enough bookings). He became a much more 'groovin' bass player
because of it - if you know what I mean.
Steve
Jurupari
Yeah, I know - sorry, Mondo, but yech! It was purely a money thing - I mean
purely. He never stopped talking about Altitudes. He loved the sound.
Didn't you guys have the keys player who went with Roland as a rep? I think Dan
said he's back in town.....
>Unless you hold your liquor like our boy
>does, I'd probably bore the living hell outta you with my mundane
>questions...
No way, man - that's how I learned - the fine art of brain picking. Thanks for
the kind words - hope it wasn't the vodka!
I'm sort of a bush leaguer in the booze department anymore. I was a heavy
drinker up until maybe fifteen years ago, but I cut it loose - I drink now and
again with friends but not like the old days. the 'two fingers in a rain
barrel' days are long gone.
I remember Dan'l and kamakazes once from the old days. He didn't know what he
had ahold of, and it was the only time in my life I've literally seen a green
human being - or should that be 'bean'?
We used to party after the gig with the local folks up in Vail, and Dan always
had a habit of creating motel room 'ambience' by spraying shaving cream all
over the tv and turning the picture on and sound off - great motel lighting!
He's a great solo bassist, but thinks he isn't. He used to knock me out on
Black Cow.
Clif
Steve Carroll
juru...@aol.com (Jurupari) wrote:
> >Speaking of 'Mondo', you probably know Dan left us for them
>
> Yeah, I know - sorry, Mondo, but yech! It was purely a money thing - I mean
> purely. He never stopped talking about Altitudes. He loved the sound.
>
> Didn't you guys have the keys player who went with Roland as a rep? I think
> Dan
> said he's back in town.....
Yeah, his name is Jerry O'Malley. He got sick of the 'LA' crap and came
back.
> >Unless you hold your liquor like our boy
> >does, I'd probably bore the living hell outta you with my mundane
> >questions...
>
> No way, man - that's how I learned - the fine art of brain picking. Thanks
> for
> the kind words - hope it wasn't the vodka!
>
> I'm sort of a bush leaguer in the booze department anymore. I was a heavy
> drinker up until maybe fifteen years ago, but I cut it loose - I drink now
> and
> again with friends but not like the old days. the 'two fingers in a rain
> barrel' days are long gone.
Hey, the 'kind words' were simply truth. I don't drink much now either,
nor do I do anything else along the lines of polluting my body (haven't
for many years. I like it much better this way. I can remeber things to
a degree now.
> I remember Dan'l and kamakazes once from the old days. He didn't know what he
> had ahold of, and it was the only time in my life I've literally seen a green
> human being - or should that be 'bean'?
>
> We used to party after the gig with the local folks up in Vail, and Dan
> always
> had a habit of creating motel room 'ambience' by spraying shaving cream all
> over the tv and turning the picture on and sound off - great motel lighting!
> He's a great solo bassist, but thinks he isn't. He used to knock me out on
> Black Cow.
He really does have a unique way of playing that I've haven't heard from
anyone else. I know he listens to and loves jazz... it's strange he
never got into playing it much. Well, I'm going to try and get into it.
I'm starting to work on walking bass lines with guide tones,(when I can
catch 'em). I need to get some basic formations down and figure out ways
to interject some life into the sound without stomping on what a pianist
might be doing during his solo. I may start doing this with Jerry in the
future if he can stomach me. Guess it's time to start learning about
harmony... it's never too late, right? RIGHT?? <I'm 44>
Steve
Jurupari
>harmony... it's never too late, right? RIGHT?? <I'm 44>
Hell, no, not if you have a vital sign or two left! That walking bass and
guide tone thing will get you around pretty good - the three together are
usually a shell voicing, or leading to or coming from one.
Clif
Steve Carroll
juru...@aol.com (Jurupari) wrote:
I was walking bass-lines, or trying to, by putting in all or most of the
notes. Then I went to Sullivans down in Denver a couple of times and saw
Mark Klagstad playing with Scott Grove, and one night, with Dana Marsh.
While paired with a piano, Mark played lots of 'shell' voicings,(if I
understand the term correctly). It was after watching him and then going
to your site that I started picking my guitar up again after years of
casing it. I love jazz and always wanted to learn it. Now I'm determined
to do so. I need to dial in my concept of harmony so I can get it more
'happenin'. I need to work on back-cycling, tritone subs and the like. I
have Ted Green's Chord Chemistry and I think that'll help.
Steve
Jurupari
>Mark Klagstad playing with Scott Grove, and one night, with Dana Marsh.
wow, am I out of the loop - those names are unknown to me. The only jazz
guitarists I've run into in town are Paul Musso and Mitch Chmara. They're both
really good.
>I love jazz and always wanted to learn it. Now I'm determined
>to do so.
Man, that's fantastic. Just don't start from square one. Add it to what you
already know.
>I need to work on back-cycling, tritone subs and the like.
True, but that's easy stuff, and the results on the other end of a little
practice will probably amaze you.
>I
>have Ted Green's Chord Chemistry and I think that'll help.
It's a bit daunting, but a great resource. If if doesn't help, I'd like to buy
it from you. I lost my copy a long time ago, and it would be much more
interesting to me these days.
>I was walking bass-lines, or trying to, by putting in all or most of the
>notes.
If you know drop 2 and 3 voicings including all the inversions, it sort of
comes without having to think much about it - just blow a bass line, and there
will always be your choice of chords in the same place.
You'll soon be increasing your 'having fun playing' factor, I'm predicting. :o)
Clif
Steve Carroll
juru...@aol.com (Jurupari) wrote:
> >Then I went to Sullivans down in Denver a couple of times and saw
> >Mark Klagstad playing with Scott Grove, and one night, with Dana Marsh.
>
> wow, am I out of the loop - those names are unknown to me. The only jazz
> guitarists I've run into in town are Paul Musso and Mitch Chmara. They're
> both
> really good.
I took a couple of lessons from Mitch but it didn't seem like it was
going to be very organized. A guy I know worked with him for about 6
months and he basically said the same thing. And this is a guy who came
over to my house to jam and thought I was a jazzy player - LOL! Musta
been before his lessons. Mitch IS a great player, though. Never heard of
Paul Musso, I'll have to check him out.
> >I love jazz and always wanted to learn it. Now I'm determined
> >to do so.
>
> Man, that's fantastic. Just don't start from square one. Add it to what you
> already know.
That'll be easy cuz' I don't know too much :)
> >I need to work on back-cycling, tritone subs and the like.
>
> True, but that's easy stuff, and the results on the other end of a little
> practice will probably amaze you.
Yeah, I've been doing it only a couple of hours and I'm seeing some
already, but I'm just so lame in this dept.
> >I
> >have Ted Green's Chord Chemistry and I think that'll help.
>
> It's a bit daunting, but a great resource. If if doesn't help, I'd like to
> buy
> it from you. I lost my copy a long time ago, and it would be much more
> interesting to me these days.
I don't think I could ever sell it. Is that book out of print?
> >I was walking bass-lines, or trying to, by putting in all or most of the
> >notes.
>
> If you know drop 2 and 3 voicings including all the inversions, it sort of
> comes without having to think much about it - just blow a bass line, and
> there
> will always be your choice of chords in the same place.
I somewhat familiar with these around the neck. I worked on them many
years ago, long before I even thought of playing any jazz music.
> You'll soon be increasing your 'having fun playing' factor, I'm predicting.
> :o)
>
> Clif
Well, I AM having more fun on the guitar than I have for a long time. I
just got SO burnt out on it with all the negativity you get from the
band thing. With jazz, it doesn't seem to be there to the same degree
cuz' players come and go so quickly, (like OZ) and the gigs look to be a
bit nicer. I just gotta put my nose to the grindstone. I started working
on Joy Spring with my son,(a 13 year old beginning alto sax player) and
that is a lot of fun for me, ya know? To work with him like that? We
REALLY suck right now but I can see the potential once he gets up to
speed,(who am I kiddin', I'm just as bad :)
Steve
Jurupari
I thought so, but i guess not. Greger just said he ordered a copy. Maybe I
will too.
Clif