Ideas for Coltrane changes on minor blues?

[Joey Goldstein]

Anybody got any nice-sounding ways to use Coltrane changes on a minor blues?
Either as a reharm or as a superimposition on top of the regular minor
blues changes?

Let's say we're starting with a fairly simple minor blues progression in
D minor, like this one:

Dm | | |D7#5#9 |

Gm | |Dm | |

Bb7 |A7#5#9 |Dm | A7#5#9 |

Anything I've been able to come up with over the first 4 bars just seems
to suck.
So far I kind of like this one, coming off the IVm chord, though:

Dm | | |D7#5#9 |

Gm Ab7 |Db E7 |A C7 |Dm (B7) |

Bb7 |A7#5#9 |Dm | A7#5#9 |

Any takers?


--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>
<http://home.primus.ca/~joegold/AudioClips/audio.htm>

[TD]

I think your instincts are good. It might be too soon to come out shooting in the first four bars for an alternate minor blues. Your idea off the iv chord is where I would put it. I also began it in bar 7. Depends on how involved you want the harmonic rhythm.

Might you try?:

D-7 / D-7 / B-7b5 Bb7b5 / A-7b5 Ab7b5 / G-7 Ab7 / Dbmaj7 E7 / Fmaj7 Gb9 / Dbmaj7 E13 / A-7b5 D7 / E-7b5 A7 / D-7b5sus Eb9 / F-7b5sus Gb9 // D-7

[rpjazzguitar]

I fooled around for a few minutes and came up with

Dm /C#m F#7/Bmaj/Fm Bb7/
Gm / Em A7 /Dmaj/Cm F7
Bb/ Em7b5 A7/ Dmaj / Db7 A7

[andy-uk .]

I think mike stern does this kind of thing.

[Joey Goldstein]

On 05-04-13 8:23 PM, TD wrote:
>
> I think your instincts are good. It might be too soon to come out shooting in the first four bars for an alternate minor blues. Your idea off the iv chord is where I would put it. I also began it in bar 7. Depends on how involved you want the harmonic rhythm.
>
> Might you try?:
>
> D-7 / D-7 / B-7b5 Bb7b5 / A-7b5 Ab7b5 / G-7 Ab7 / Dbmaj7 E7 / Fmaj7 Gb9 / Dbmaj7 E13 / A-7b5 D7 / E-7b5 A7 / D-7b5sus Eb9 / F-7b5sus Gb9 // D-7
>

Thanks TD, but I don't see where any of that min7b5 stuff after bar 9 is
coming from, especially the turnaround in the last 2 bars.
That Gb9 in bar 7 is a typo, right? Shoulda been Ab9?

They've got nothing to do with Coltrane changes, but I like the cycles
from Dm down to Gm in bars 3 and 4.

--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>

<http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/JoeyGoldstein>

[Joey Goldstein]

Hmm.
You seem to be trying to use the backward cycle of the chord sequence,
as used in the last 4 bars of Coltrane's tune, Giant Steps.
Usually it's the forward cycle of keys from the first part of the tune
that is used for this type of reharm in my experience.
I.e. C to Ab to E to C
is the normal direction of the cycle rather than
C to E to Ab to C

But I suppose the principles involved are similar and can also yield
satisfactory results.
Thanks.
I've never thought about using the opposite direction like that.
Seems like it might be fruitful.

--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>

<http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/JoeyGoldstein>

[TD]

Right the Gb9 was a typo where it should have been Ab9. Thanks. The cycle down to the iv was not supposed to be Trane changes as I stated that I began it later. After all, the tune is not entire progression would not be a carbon copy of Giant Steps or Countdown. In bar 7 I utilized the relative major of the tonic where I imposed Trane's cycle a 2nd time. The A-7 D7 is utilized in turn as major third reharm used instead of Bb7 to get to A7, (the 5 chord of the tonic minor). The last two bars are subs for Dminor turnaround as in D-7 B-7b5 Bb7 A7.

[TD]

The use of A-7b5 to preceed the D7 sub was to try to entertain the use of E13 out of the Trane 2nd Trane use. it was meant as an offer only and not a tear down. If it sounds good to you, cool. If it doesn't, discard it.

[James Seaberry]

I like it, Tony; it opens up a lot of sounds even if it is not a strict Coltrane pattern. Thanks all for this thread. Cool idea, Joey.

[Joey Goldstein]

On 05-05-13 11:02 AM, TD wrote:
> On Sunday, May 5, 2013 10:43:12 AM UTC-4, Joey Goldstein wrote:
>> On 05-04-13 8:23 PM, TD wrote:

>>> D-7 / D-7 / B-7b5 Bb7b5 / A-7b5 Ab7b5 / G-7 Ab7 / Dbmaj7 E7 / Fmaj7 Gb9 / Dbmaj7 E13 / A-7b5 D7 / E-7b5 A7 / D-7b5sus Eb9 / F-7b5sus Gb9 // D-7

> Right the Gb9 was a typo where it should have been Ab9. Thanks. The cycle down to the iv was not supposed to be Trane changes as I stated that I began it later. After all, the tune is not entire progression would not be a carbon copy of Giant Steps or Countdown. In bar 7 I utilized the relative major of the tonic where I imposed Trane's cycle a 2nd time.

>The A-7 D7 is utilized in turn as major third reharm used instead of Bb7

"Major third reharm"?
Is that a common thing, to reharm a dom7 chord with another dom7 chord a
maj 3rd above the original dom7 chord?
This device is news to me although I've seen tunes occasionally that
utilize something akin to this.
E.g. On someday My Prince, when it moves to the IV chord via III7 (in
bars 2, 18 and on some lead sheets in bar 26 as well), but I've never
thought of it as a technique to to be used to reharm a V7 chord.
I'll have to think about this one a while.
Thanks!

>to get to A7, (the 5 chord of the tonic minor).


>The last two bars are subs for Dminor turnaround as in D-7 B-7b5 Bb7 A7.

Clearly that's what they are, but how did you derive them?

[TD]

Absolutely,( Many of your Bostonian horn alumni's eat it for breakfast, and maybe, just maybe some outsiders may deem it as MODERN. Whooppeeee! In addition, I thought it musically logical since the Trane progression itself is based on major third movement.

I use my ears for the turnaround (D half dim subs for Dminor), but I don't see it as a great feat. The last bar moves up a minor third from the preceding bar. Gb9, as you know replaces A7 as the final chord in this particular turn-around.

[steve.h...@gmail.com]

Great thread! Here's a few:

D- | | |D7alt |

G- | |D- | |

G-6 Ab7 |Dbma7 E7 |Ama7 C7 | Fma7 A7alt |


D- | | | |

Bb7 Db7 |Gbma7 A7 |Dma7 F13 |Bbma7 |

E-7b5 |A7alt. |Dm | E-7b5 A7alt |


D- | E-7b5 A7alt |D- | |

E-7b5 F7 |Bbma7 Db7 |Gbma7 A7 |Dma7 |

E-7b5 |A7alt. | D- | Bb7 A7 |


just a bit of those changes in this one:
D- | | |D7alt |

G- | |D- Eb7 |Abma7 B7 |

E-7b5 |A7alt. |D- F7 | Bbma7 A7alt |


Steve
www.steveherberman.com

[Gerry]

On 2013-05-05 15:53:39 +0000, TD said:

> maybe some outsiders may deem it as MODERN. Whooppeeee

I figured you'd work this into most posts for a good month...
--
Music is the best means we have of digesting time. -- W. H. Auden

[TD]

Now you done gone and spoiled it.

[Joey Goldstein]

Nice ones!
Thanks.

[Steve Herberman]

Glad you like them, your changes were nice as well. It now strikes me that this would be a great ongoing thread for standard tunes using different player's favorite set of changes..

Steve
www.steveherberman.com

[Steve Herberman]

Nice prog Tony!

Steve

[rpjazzguitar]

In case this is of interest ...

I did it mostly by ear, so I wasn't aware I was doing Coltrane's sequence in reverse. What I was thinking was a ii V I then drop a half step from that I to a V7. So Bmaj7 goes to Bb7 and, then, I stick in the iim to get the Fm7 in between.

I wasn't sure about the Bb7 to Gm change, but it didn't sound any worse <g> than Giant Steps did the first time I heard it. Afterward it occured to me that Gm has several notes in common with Ebmaj7 which would have completed the ii V I. The rest was all by ear and that half-step-drop thing. I think my turnaround needs more work.

Glad it was of some interest.

[rpjazzguitar]

Never mind about that reverse remark. I just reread your post and understood it better.

[Steve Herberman]

A few more, some I like. I got a little carried away with it but hope there is something here someone likes.

D- | | | D7alt. |

G- | |D-7 |F7 |

Bbma7 Db7 |Gbma7 A7 | Dma7 F7 | Bbma7 A7 ||


D- | | | |

G- |G#0 | Ama7 |C7 |

(F- Gb7 | Bma7 D7 | Gma7 Bb7 |Eb7 ) ||
Fma7 Ab7| Dbma7 E7 | Ama7 C7 | Fma7 A7alt ||


D- | | |D7alt. |

G- | D/F# | Bb7/F | E-7b5 |

Ebma7 F#7 |Bma7 D7 |Gma7 Bb7 |Eb7 ||


D- | | | D7alt |

G- |G#0 |A-7 |C-7 F7 |

Bbma7 Db7 | Gbma7 A7 |Dma7 F13 |Bbma7 A7 ||

Steve
www.steveherberman.com

[rpjazzguitar]

Dm /F#m11 B7/ Emaj7 /Abm7 Db7/

Gm7/ Em7 A7/ Dmaj7/ Abm7 Db7/

Gbmaj7/ Fm7 Bb7/ Ebma7/ Em7b5 Aalt/

Good thread. I'd never thought about trying to use Coltrane in a minor blues.

[Joey Goldstein]

So just from my own purposes right now I'm trying to find a set of
changes based on the Coltrane cycle that I can outline while the bass
player outlines the regular minor blues changes.

Most of the suggestions thus far work better as entirely new
progressions on which to write a new tune rather than as the
superimposition thing that I'm after.

Even the best of them, so far, don't sound so hot as superimpositions.

This one kind of works over the first 4 bars:

Dm A7 |Dm Db7 |Gb A7 |Dm D7 |

Can't seem to get anything else yet that works for me along these lines
though.

--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>

<http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/JoeyGoldstein>

[paul s]

How about, starting at the 7th bar -

/Dm Eb7 / Ab B7 / Bb7 etc...


Paul S

[TD]

Trane cycle is a different cycle right out of the starting gate. When we use it, we are compelled to force it against the standard progressions. An aware bassist will catch it after one bar. Straight Blues adheres to the Cycle of 5. The Countdown form emanates from the cycle of 3. I prefer to play lines through it and force them against standard changes whenever I sense that such a thing may be musical. I can blow against my impromptu progression with the bass player utilizing standard changes and sound musical, if done within an availability of additional elements, such as time and spacing and rhythm with say, Scott Colley, Jay Leonhart, for a few examples, on bass. It won't make it with every bassist and/or most rhythm guitarists (too much room for apparent clashing). Changes I usually stipulate in advance, if such is the case.

[Joey Goldstein]

Sounds good to me as a reharm but not so good as a superimposition.
But thanks.

--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>

<http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/JoeyGoldstein>

[Steve Herberman]

The three tonics of F, A and Db have some great notes against the D- sound. The Db is the most out of the 3. Why not try this for bars 1-4:

|Fma7 Ab13| Dbma7 E7#9 | Ama7 C13 | Fma7 F#0 |

G- etc.

[Steve Herberman]

Using those same 3 tonics you can try this one keeping some of the chords to triads to stay more inside.


D- blues 1st 4 bars:

A C |Fma7 Ab | Dbma7 E7 | A-7b5 D7 |


Steve

[rpjazzguitar]

Next try:

Keeping with the idea of something to play over the minor blues changes (not a reharm) and limiting it to the first 4 bars ...

Bar 1 has to have a Dm and Bar 4 has to have a D7 of some kind.

In between it can't be too outside (when I tried that I couldn't make it sound good).

So I tried 6 beats of Dm, one beat each Fm7 Bb7, 4 beats of Ebmaj7 and then Am7b5 to D7alt in the 4 bar.

I couldn't make the Ab note in the Fm7 sound like music. So, I changed it to an A natural and the sequence sucked substantially less.

[gseven...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, May 4, 2013 at 7:25:21 PM UTC-4, Joey Goldstein wrote:
> Anybody got any nice-sounding ways to use Coltrane changes on a minor blues?
> Either as a reharm or as a superimposition on top of the regular minor
> blues changes?
>
> Let's say we're starting with a fairly simple minor blues progression in
> D minor, like this one:
>
> Dm | | |D7#5#9 |
>
> Gm | |Dm | |
>
> Bb7 |A7#5#9 |Dm | A7#5#9 |
>
> Anything I've been able to come up with over the first 4 bars just seems
> to suck.
> So far I kind of like this one, coming off the IVm chord, though:
>
> Dm | | |D7#5#9 |
>
> Gm Ab7 |Db E7 |A C7 |Dm (B7) |
>
> Bb7 |A7#5#9 |Dm | A7#5#9 |
>
> Any takers?

>
>
> --
> Joey Goldstein
> <http://www.joeygoldstein.com>

> <http://home.primus.ca/~joegold/AudioClips/audio.htm>

[Tim McNamara]

my favorite Coltrane-ish turnaround in that key would be

Dmin7 Emin7 | F6 A7sus4

That comes out of Mr Syms (or Sims, spellings vary). I thought it was
in the Real Book but I didn't find it just now.

[ott...@hotmail.com]

Cool,
and my rather obvious Coltrance type donation for the first 4 measures would be:
Dm7, Fmaj9 | Bb7 , Eb7 | Dm | Am7 D7#9 |

[ott...@hotmail.com]

Oops, make that F9(Not maj9), even though this is a an Old thread anyway:-)
Bg

[patmp...@gmail.com]

Coltrane changes? You mean the cycle of thirds?

[Joey Goldstein]

On 2016-01-11 7:57 AM, patmp...@gmail.com wrote:
> Coltrane changes? You mean the cycle of thirds?
>

Yes.
Back in 2013, when I started this thread, that's what I was talking about.
Not sure what pat and Tim are talking about now.

--
Joey Goldstein
<http://www.joeygoldstein.com>

<http://music.cbc.ca/#/artists/Joey-Goldstein>
<http://www.cdbaby.com/Artist/JoeyGoldstein>
<https://www.facebook.com/JoeyGoldsteinMusic>

[Joey Goldstein]

On 2016-01-11 9:07 AM, Joey Goldstein wrote:
> On 2016-01-11 7:57 AM, patmp...@gmail.com wrote:
>> Coltrane changes? You mean the cycle of thirds?
>>
>
> Yes.
> Back in 2013, when I started this thread, that's what I was talking about.
> Not sure what pat and Tim are talking about now.

Sorry...
Not sure what pat and otto are talking about, not you Tim.

[erv.b...@gmail.com]

It's nice in Dorian mode ... so like A Dorian Licks -》Bflat7 ( that's the V in Eflat or the IVdim in F Dorian... do some licks.. and stumble into the B key. There the Emaj is an IV chord but is a V chord back to A Dorian.

[arqdie...@gmail.com]

El sábado, 4 de mayo de 2013, 20:25:21 (UTC-3), Joey Goldstein escribió:
> Anybody got any nice-sounding ways to use Coltrane changes on a minor blues?
> Either as a reharm or as a superimposition on top of the regular minor
> blues changes?
>
> Let's say we're starting with a fairly simple minor blues progression in
> D minor, like this one:
>
> Dm | | |D7#5#9 |
>
> Gm | |Dm | |
>
> Bb7 |A7#5#9 |Dm | A7#5#9 |
>
> Anything I've been able to come up with over the first 4 bars just seems
> to suck.
> So far I kind of like this one, coming off the IVm chord, though:
>
> Dm | | |D7#5#9 |
>
> Gm Ab7 |Db E7 |A C7 |Dm (B7) |
>
> Bb7 |A7#5#9 |Dm | A7#5#9 |
>
> Any takers?
>
>

> --
> Joey Goldstein
> <http://www.joeygoldstein.com>

> <http://home.primus.ca/~joegold/AudioClips/audio.htm>

You can play the cycle from the fifth grade of D-7 and resulting dorico

[Joey Goldstein]

Huh?

[Lord Valve]

Well, you gotta make sure the Johnson bar is not
causing the frammistan to impact the fenneldoss
regulator, thereby slowing the disgronificator.
And you need a little sheffafa on the side.

As far as I know, "dorico" is some sort of notation
software from Steinberg. I believe I might've learned
about D7 in the fifth grade (probably earlier, in fact)
but y'all can take it from here. Put a little frim-fram
sauce on it, it'll probably clear up by morning.

Lord Valve
Organist